1974-1975 JEFFREY MACDONALD CASE GRAND JURY TRANSCRIPT
16, 1974: Jeffrey MacDonald
(FRIDAY MORNING, AUGUST 16, 1974, 9:00 A.M.)
Whereupon, DR. JEFFREY R.
MACDONALD, being called back to the witness stand, was examined and testified as
EXAMINATION CONTINUED BY MR. WOERHEIDE:
MacDonald, you understand that your testimony at this time is pursuant to the oath that
you were administered on Monday of this week as a witness?
A Yes, I do.
FOREMAN: Everyone is here at this time.
Q (Mr. Woerheide) Dr. MacDonald,
before we resume with the diagram, there are a few items that I would like to allude to.
Yesterday morning, you will recall I asked you again with respect to the notes that
you had prepared back in April and May of 1970 for the use of your attorneys and which
you turned over to them.
You informed us that you'd let us know your answer at
one o'clock, and then that was--we just didn't get back to it.
Have you given further
thought to that, sir?
A Yes, I have. Mr. Segal asked me to ask you if--we don't even
have the notes here. That's what's being packed in his truck, all those files to go back
to the west coast, and he and I are going to get together in San Francisco after he
unpacks and look at the notes, and he'll be in contact with you.
I presume he will
get whatever he can to you.
Q All right, but--
A But I really have nothing here to
give you anyway.
Q All right, I'll expect to hear further from you--
Q --through Mr. Segal concerning this matter.
Q Now, you did mention
on the fifteenth, you'd served at the Hamlet Hospital and that there was a little girl there
who required surgical treatment. I--I think you said she had a burst appendix and she
was the--you treated her during the day, and you--as you recall you took a look at her of
a morning before you left and returned home?
A (Nods affirmatively)
Q What was
the sort of treatment that you gave her?
A Ah, she was--I think I had to start an I.V.
on her, and give her some blood; if this is the same weekend.
A If this is
the person, she was bleeding post-operatively--you know--in her abdomen, nothing
Q This was internal bleeding?
A Right, and the nurse--it couldn't get--the
original call--you know--now that you ask me, the original call was for an I.V., and I went
to start an intravenous needle in the girl's arm to give her some fluid.
And when I
got to see her, she looked terrible, so I examined her and started an I.V., began giving
her intravenous fluids, and got her blood count and compared the blood count to the
prior blood count, and she was obviously hemorrhaging, losing considerable blood
inside her abdomen.
So we cross matched her blood and gave her some blood.
I think she got two units that day, something like that.
And I talked to the
attending physician, the private physician who was in charge of the case, and he said
transfer her to County Hospital.
Q Did you actually withdraw some of her blood for
testing purposes--to analyze the blood as to her blood count, or is that done by a
member of the staff there?
A I don't know. They couldn't start an I.V. So I started
the I.V. I probably drew some blood at the same time.
I believe that's why I got the
original call. They couldn't--you know--in a smaller person, the I.V. is harder to start
and the nurse couldn't start it.
Q Well, what do you mean by start an I.V.? Does that
mean causing the vein to swell and injecting the needle in a vein?
A Right, and--
A --then you take it out.
Q --so the liquid can pass?
A Right, well,
it's a needle with a polyethylene tube over the needle. So you put both in and withdraw
the needle and leave the plastic candler in the vein.
Q Well, when you administer an
I.V., what sort of fluid do you use? Is it serum or is it whole blood or is it--
initially it was like a saline-type fluid. It was probably something called lactated Ringers
which I think she eventually got well. You know, she got whole blood.
Q Would that
be administered by you or a member of the staff?
A Normally the physician starts the
blood, and then he leaves and he's called if there is a blood reaction.
Q Was that the
treatment you gave her during the day or was it the treatment you gave her that morning
just before you left? I think you said her mother spent the night there with her?
A Right, it would have been--let me think now--she would have gotten--if this is all
--you know--if this is the right time, I think she would have gotten it on
Sunday. She would have gotten her blood that Sunday, and the following morning it
would have been a repeat of the test, and then a transfer to the County Hospital.
Q That was done I take it after you left?
Q Do you remember this little
A No, I do not.
Q Was there a record of her blood type at the hospital?
A I'm sure there is.
Q Is that a standard type procedure as soon as a patient is
admitted to type them?
A No, no, only if there's a potential need for transfusion.
Q Well, there was a potential--
A (Interposing) For her there was, sure, there'd be a
record for her, because she received blood.
Q I don't suppose you recall what type
blood it was by any chance?
A No, sir. I--
A --normally wouldn't even
know that by the way.
Q I see.
A I just match up numbers on the blood--the bag of
blood when it comes.
Q Unh-hunh, now, you made a statement in response to our
request concerning a polygraph or a sodium amytal test, and it was all couched in the
first person singular. And I know it was your statement, but did you prepare this in
collaboration with Mr. Malley?
Did he assist you in preparing it?
A Yes, he did.
Q How about Mr. Segal? Did he assist you to prepare it?
A Yes, sir.
going back to the time that--that you were going to bed, you said that Kris had wet the
You also said you hadn't turned the light on.
Was there enough light for
you to perceive the wet spot, or was this something you observed when you went to
pick her up and felt her?
I mean, was it because of the dampness or because of
visual inspection you were able to tell she had wet the bed?
A I would presume some
of both, but I'm pretty sure you could see that.
Q Now, you have testified that when
these two men which are designated on that chart as B and C, were attacking you, you
observed--let's say--the flash of a blade of some sort in the hands of one of these
Can you tell us whether the blade that you saw just for an instant
appeared to be a knife blade or an ice pick blade? Or a blade of a different type? I
mean, just give us as best you can a description of how that blade appeared to you.
A My impression was that it was a knife blade.
Q A knife blade?
(yes), it was really just an impression of a blade--you know--I didn't--
Q Some knives,
particularly those made of stainless steel have a bright shiny blade. Other knives,
particularly those that are made of non-stainless steel, with the passage of time, the
blade becomes dark.
Q Was it a bright shiny blade--
Q --or a dark blade?
A I just--I don't remember--you know--a bright shine. It was a
blade, so I would say it was not like a shiny blade on, say, a hunting knife or something
Q Well, can you give us an idea of the size of it? Would it be as large as,
let's say, as a hunting knife--
A No, and it--
Q --or as small as a paring knife?
A My impression it was bigger than a paring knife, but it didn't appear--you know--it
didn't appear, say, to be a big knife like is used in the kitchen--you know--or anything
Q Unh-hunh, where were the knives kept in your household, sir?
A In the
Q And were they in a drawer next to the sink or under the sink?
A Ah, in a
drawer, you know, in the sink front, I believe.
Q Would that be to the left of the sink?
A I don't remember.
Q To the right of the sink?
A I honestly don't remember.
Q And I suppose that in your household, as in my household and in many other
households, you open the drawer and there is a jumble of utensils--
A That's right.
Q --knives, forks, spoons, ladles, various items that are used around a kitchen in
preparing the food for the family?
Q Now, in most households there are
dishwashing gloves. Did Colette have some dishwashing gloves?
you recall their appearance or color?
A Yeah, she had a yellow pair of regular
Q I suppose she kept those on the sink?
A In the area, top of
the refrigerator, in the sink, or something like that.
Q And you described gloves being
on the hands of one of these individuals or what you felt to be gloves, did you get a
glimpse of the color of these gloves?
A No, sir.
Q That was purely a touch
sensation, and not a visual sensation?
Q Now, you did say that you
collected various medicines and things that could be used for medical treatment,
emergency type situations, and you did have surgical gloves around the house, did you
Q Can you tell us where those were kept?
A They were kept in the
box they came in, either under the--either in the hall--the hall closet next to the main
bathroom or in the--under the sink.
Q And I take it Colette used them from time to
time when doing things like painting for example?
Q We have a
photograph of her painting and she appears to be wearing surgical gloves?
Q Did you on occasion use them?
A When I did the dishes sometimes. She also
used them for the dishes.
Q Let me ask you this: why would you use surgical gloves
in doing the dishes in preference to regular dishwashing gloves?
A No real
preference, except the usual. I would--you know--I would suppose like, well, whichever
Well, her--the gloves that she normally bought for kitchen use were
probably small for me. They would be hard to put on.
Q Well, when you washed the
dishes, do you use hot water?
Q Real hot or tepid?
A Usually pretty
Q Well, surgical gloves don't protect you from the heat of the water, do they?
Q Do they have a tendency to stretch or deform when the temperature is
A Ah, I have never noticed it. They may. I don't know.
Q I take it the
dishwashing gloves, they fit Colette but they didn't necessarily fit you?
A I have used
them, but now that you ask, they were kind of tight. They kind of hold my fingers
Q Unh-hunh, now, going back to the struggle that you had where your
assailants, A, B, C and D, while this was going on, did you hear any sort of a thud or a
Q If there had been a thud or a bang, say for example from the coffee
table being toppled, would you have heard it?
A I doubt it.
Q In other words, you
were so engrossed in defending yourself?
A That would be my reaction, yes.
Q And distracted by the screams of Colette and Kimberley that--
probably would not make an impression upon you?
Q Do you recall
inflicting any injury on any of these attackers, A, B, or C, such as a scratch or a bruise?
A Yes, the--the--you know--I recollect that at various times, that I--there was one
episode in the early part in the fight when I did hit someone it did seem to me in the
I really don't know how effective it was.
Q Are you more effective as a
puncher with your left hand or your right hand?
A Oh, my right hand.
Q Well, you
hit someone in the face, would that be a right-handed punch?
A Ah, it could have
been either. I actually thought it was left.
Q You think it was a left-handed punch?
Q So chances are if you struck them on the head, it would be on the left
side of the head?
A I don't follow that.
Q Well, a left-handed punch comes from the
left side and normally would strike the person who was confronting you from straight on
ahead of you, it would strike on the left part of his body unless you missed and let's say
you were striking--or intending to strike him here and you struck him over
A Well, a left hook would normally hit on the right side or a straight
Q Yeah, you're right.
Q You're right. I misspoke myself, but the
right side of his body--
Q --and the left side facing you?
A Right, but in
this instance--you know--the recollection that I have, it was someone's face --you
know--and it was more like--it was while I was fending off one of the blows with the club,
really, and it wasn't really a good punch--you know--but I thought I hit a person--I
thought the black male in the face.
Q Unh-hunh, that--think that would be a glancing
blow or a direct blow?
Q A closed fist or--
A I don't know.
I'm just wondering if there was any possibility of a scratch?
A Yeah, I'm not trying to be imprecise. I'm trying to be precise.
Q I understand.
A The recollections are not at all as clear as we are making them sort of sound now. I
really don't know if it was that specific blow, but there was like a scratch at one time.
Someone else has asked me that at some time. I don't know who it was,
--and the answer was, there was a scratch like on a face at one time.
Q Would that be A, B, or C?
A My impression was A.
Q Now, we have
indicated the movement of A during this struggle on the chart. And you also indicated
that D moved, and I--from your testimony I take it that she moved from the point
indicated on the diagram to a point slightly to the right and I wonder if you would at this
time indicate where as you recall she moved to from the position indicated there?
A Now, this is again, as I said yesterday, this is really reconstruction, because I didn't
really see the movement. I saw a knee.
Q You saw a knee as you were going
down. Indicate that--
A Right, trying--
Q --indicate that point.
A All right, which
would be in this area here.
Q All right, sir, there is a reasonable inference that the
knee you saw was the knee of the woman rather than the knee--
one of the male attackers?
Q Now, as these people were moving around
in the course of this struggle, can you tell whether they were wearing shoes? I mean,
did you hear the sound that you would normally hear from people moving about with
shoes on their feet?
A Sir, I have no recollection at all.
Q Now, your pajama top
was torn in the course of the struggle, as I recall your statement, it was either torn or
pulled over your head?
Q Now, a pajama top as found wasn't--was in fact
torn. It had a tear in it.
Now, according to your recollection, that tear occurred
during the course of this struggle?
A I don't know. I'm not aware of that.
can you--let's try to eliminate any possibility of any other tear.
Did you engage in
any activity from the time you became aware of the fact that you were lying on the floor
at the end of the hallway, indicated in the diagram, and you put the body of
Colette--when you say you regained consciousness, the pajama top was wrapped
around your hands and you apparently they were still around your hands until you got
down to the bedroom.
Now, was there anything that happened to cause the pajama
top to be torn?
A Unless it was--unless I--as I was taking it off my hands were ripping
it. I don't know that.
Q Do you have any recollection of it ripping
while you were taking it off your hands?
A No, sir.
A I mean I wasn't
worried about my pajama top ripping at the time.
Q Now, when you found yourself in
the position at the end of the hall there, your teeth were chattering, your arms were
under you, the pajama tops were around the ends of your arms, and your hands, when
you got up, did you look at the pajama tops?
A No, sir.
Q Well, between the time
that you got up and the time that you removed the pajama tops, in the bedroom, did you
observe any blood on them?
A No, I don't even remember. I just remember trying to
pull them off my hands.
Q Don't remember seeing any blood on them at all?
Q Your blood--well, you had an injury that caused a certain amount of
bleeding, I take it?
Q You didn't observe any blood on your pajama tops?
A No, I didn't.
Q When they were under your body, you said your arms were under
your body, were they in a position where they would have absorbed some blood from
Q Well, can you say yes or not? Do you recall the
position your arms were in and where the pajama tops were?
A Seems to me they
should have had.
Q They should have had some blood?
A They should have had
Q But you didn't observe them?
A No, I didn't.
Q Now, when you
observed Colette lying in the floor, what was the position of her arms?
A Seemed like
her left arm was down next to her body, or a little bit away, and the right arm was sort
of--seemed like it was crooked. It was up against the green chair.
Q Unh-hunh, now,
did you change the position of her arms?
A Right, in moving her.
Q Now, after you
changed the position of her arms, what position were her arms in?
A I think her left
arm was straight out from her body; and the right arm would have been right down
alongside her body.
Q Well, could her left arm have been not only out, but sort of
raised, behind her, somewhat?
Q Lying on the floor?
A It's possible. I
thought that I just kind of moved it up; up to my right as I was kneeling down next to
her. It may have been up a little bit higher than horizontal.
Q That was so it wouldn't
interfere with the emergency treatment you were giving her?
Q She was
laying in a prone position, or her feet were straight out?
A No, she was supine.
Q Supine position?
A Prone is face down.
Q Supine is back down, face up?
Q Do you recall the legs of her pajamas--
Q --whether they
were down to her ankles or whether the legs were sort of pushed up over her calf?
A I don't remember. I remember--I remember I could see her feet, but I don't
remember how high it was up on her legs.
Q Well, you had--you could see her feet in
any event. I mean just wondering if they were sort of pushed up so you could see the
calf of her leg?
A I think I could. I think I could. That's right.
Q What are the--you
did give mouth to mouth resuscitation to Colette and to each of the children?
Q You're a trained doctor and you're experienced in emergency room functions; and
can you tell us what the indications are that caused you to give her mouth to mouth
A Well, she looked--you know--she looked like she was dead. She
wasn't breathing, couldn't feel a pulse. That's what you do with them.
Q Well, that's
the first thing you do. You wouldn't rush for something to start heart action in the way of
hypodermic injection or something of that sort?
A No, you wouldn't do that. The first
problem is airway problem. Airway, circulation, breathing, A, B, C.
Q Now, you said
that she was very bloody. She was covered with the blood?
A (Nods affirmatively)
Q And there was blood all over the place.
Now, were her wounds flowing--would
you say they were oozing, or were--
A It seems to me--I didn't see any blood
running. She was wet. The blood was wet on her chest, but--you know--I didn't see
Q So it was fresh blood? It wasn't flowing or oozing or seeping out of her at that
A Right, right. I didn't see any arterial bleeding, right.
Q I may have touched
upon this, I don't really want to repeat too much, but I just don't--I just don't remember to
the extent I touched on it, but, of course, Colette was on the floor; each of the children
was in bed; and I'm going to ask you again the position of the bed covers over the
bodies of Kimberley and Kris?
A I--I saw both girls--you know--but I don't know if I
pulled down the covers or if the covers were down when I initially got there.
I--you know--I can remember taking pulses, and I can remember sort of like seeing Kim
and seeing Kris.
So, you know, I don't--I don't really have a recollection of them
being covered. So I either pulled the covers down, or--you know--I saw them and they
Q Now, getting back to Kris, when you observed her, in bed, and
lying there as indicated in the diagram, did you notice the--her baby bottle, her little
bottle of chocolate milk?
A No, I don't remember it.
Q Well, you remember that you
gave it to her when you put her in bed?
A (Nods affirmatively)
Q About two
Q And when you went in the room, and saw her, did you see
it? Was it on the bed? Was it next to her?
A I didn't notice it, sir. I wasn't looking
for a baby bottle.
Q Right. In moving about the house, and I'm--we have done the
first series of movements.
We haven't done the second.
Do you recall stepping in
any pool of blood or on anything that was covered with blood?
A Not specifically,
no. I'm sure it could have happened.
Q Do you recall seeing masses of blood
anywhere in any of these rooms?
Q Well, they were--there was a mass of
blood I assume around Colette on the floor?
Q Now, was there a mass of
blood either on the floor of Kimberley's room or Kris's room?
A There's a lot of blood
in Kris's room.
Q And that would be blood on the floor, sort of a puddle of blood?
A The place looked very bloody to me, Mr. Woerheide. I don't really remember
thinking to myself, ah-ha, there's a big pool of blood on the floor.
There seemed to
be a lot of blood, you know.
Q Yeah, okay.
I wonder if you would--I think we'd
better number these various stopping points because some of these lines follow the
same course. Would you mind putting one where you start at the bottom of the end of
the hall there, and two by Colette's body which was the first stop; and three by Kim's
body which was the third stop; four by Kris's body which is the fourth stop?
writes numbers on floor plan.)
Q Then you stopped in the hall, so that would be
five; and stopped in the bathroom so that would be six; and you went back to Colette
and that would be seven.
Q And now you went to the telephone; that
would be eight. And you paused before you went out to the rear door, that would be
nine. The rear door would be ten.
(Witness writes numbers on floor plan.)
Q Now, let's take up the sequence from there, Dr. MacDonald, if you please.
went back to Kimberley's room.
Q All right, will you indicate that on that green line
(Witness writes on floor plan.)
Q And as I recall your testimony, you're
not sure whether it was the first or second time you gave her artificial resuscitation?
Q It was on one of these occasions?
Q And do you recall how
long you stayed there?
A No, it seemed very brief.
Q Once again you checked her
pulse at least?
Q And you may have given her artificial resuscitation?
Q I take it you didn't move her?
A Only to the extent that possibly, if I
did the mouth to mouth at this time, possibly lifting her up from behind the neck a little
Q Unh-hunh, now, from there you went once again to Kris's bedside?
Q Once again you examined her?
Q From there where did you go?
A Back out in the hallway.
Q All right, sir,--
(Witness draws on floor plan.)
Q Did you stay there at all?
A It seemed like for a very brief minute
trying to figure out what to do.
A I believe this is when I was thinking
of--should I go to the Kalins who are our neighbors or --on this side, or should I re-try
the phone call?, so I retried the phone call.
Q Unh-hunh, and having made that
decision you went down the hall again?
Q And cut across the dining room
Q --into the kitchen, is that correct?
Q And I take it
the phone is in the kitchen right on the edge of the entrance?
Q To the
Q Now, as you passed through the living room area, what if
anything did you observe? Did you make any observations with reference to--let's
say--the overturned coffee table or any disorder or disarray in that room?
whatsoever. I don't remember seeing anything at all, noticing anything.
Q You didn't
make any attempt to straighten anything up or put any order in anything?
A Sir, I
don't know. I don't remember that, no.
Q Well, in the kitchen, besides making the
telephone call, did you do anything?
A I'm not sure. I have a little tiny--recollections
of--when I was telling you about washing my hands over here, it seems to me I was
washing my hands on more than one occasion. So in reconstruction, when I was laying
in the hospital trying to think of what was going on, I may have washed my hands here
at this sink.
But, I thought I washed my hands twice, that I was rinsing myself off
I don't know that. So it's conceivable that I washed my hands here, either
before or after the phone call. I would think after.
Q All right, well, since you're not
sure of it, let's make a--make a fourteen there and a dotted line instead of a solid line.
A You mean over to the sink?
Q Over to the sink.
(Witness draws on floor plan.)
Q And if you did wash your hands there, that would be number fifteen, right?
Q Do you remember getting anything out or putting anything away around
the sink there at that time?
Q You wouldn't have had any occasion to reach
under the sink or reach into a drawer or reach into a cupboard or closet or anything of
A Not that I recollect, no.
Q Now, do you have a recollection of your
movements from point fifteen to the place where they found you?
A The actual
movement or the--
A I really don't remember going back down the
hallway. It's not clear in my mind. I don't think of myself as walking down the hallway.
Q Yes, all right, well, then, do you--let's let you use your green marker and indicate
approximately where you were at the time the MPs came in and you became aware of
Q I take it it's right where two and seven are--
Q --is that right?
A Right, right here.
Q All right.
Q You want a sixteen on that?
Q Yes, just put a sixteen down underneath that.
(Witness writes on floor plan.)
Q That's where you were?
A (Nods affirmatively)
Q Now, you say your body
was more or less parallel to that of Colette, probably a slight angle, and your head was
lying on her shoulder or side?
Q That would be her left shoulder or left
Q All right, and the next thing you recall there was an MP struggling
with you and I take it that he would be right--approximately where you marked the
Q And he was pushing you down and you were
struggling to get up?
A That's right.
Q He was breathing into your mouth?
A (Nods affirmatively)
Q And you were reacting?
Q Now, were the
MPs--well, I won't say the MPs--medics, I guess, loaded you on the stretcher, they
carried you once again down the hallway and out the front door, is that correct?
A They didn't carry me. They wheeled me.
Q The stretcher had wheels on it?
A (Interposing) This--you know--this is what they testified to. I
didn't know that.
Q There was an interlude at--as you were passing the door of Kris's
bedroom when you got off the stretcher and at least a part of your body was in the room
A You mean Kimberley's room.
Q --Kimberley's room, rather, which is
just to the right of the door against the wall?
A Right, one of the MPs testified that
Specialist Mica pulled me five or six feet into this doorway.
I'm not aware of that. I
don't really remember whether he moved me or not, but one of the MPs, Seiver or Duffy
or someone, said that Mica and whoever was helping him had pulled me from "sixteen"
over into here, and then when they loaded me onto the wheel stretcher, it was right
here, and when I struggled off the stretcher, I fell here against Kimberley's stereo.
Q You do remember that?
A I remember getting off the stretcher. I remember
falling onto the floor and someone was jerking me back on the stretcher.
Q Unh-hunh, now, while you were there on the floor, and they were attempting to give
you first aid treatment, was there any discussion by you with them; that is the MPs or
the medics, about your possibly being in shock?
A I don't--I don't distinctly remember
that. There may have been. There was a lot of--you know--a lot of voices yelling
things; many people yelling things at me at once and questions, and, ah--
Q But did
you--did you suggest that they get--that they elevate your feet?
A Did I suggest that?
A Not that I remember.
Q Well, were you concerned about the fact that
you were going into shock? Do you recall saying anything to the effect?
A No, I don't
recollect that. It may have occurred--you know--I really don't recollect that though.
Q Well, do you recall that a pillow was taken from the bed of yourself and Colette and
placed under your feet?
A Someone did do that. That's right.
Q Do you recall who
A There were a lot of people in that room, sir. No. Someone did do that.
Q Was this pillow also placed on the stretcher to elevate your feet?
A I don't
Q Well, do you remember that when you were taken off the stretcher
at the hospital, that pillow was still there?
A I really don't remember that at all. That's
weird. I never remember that pillow.
Q Well, we do have a pillow that was reportedly
placed under your feet that came to the hospital, and unlike the pajama bottoms, it was
not thrown away.
And there are marks of blood on the pillow. I assume that was to
be normally expected; you were walking around the house; there was blood all over the
place. It was to be expected that you would get blood on your feet when you were
walking around the house, and do you have any comment to make on that?
except I think they were washing my feet at the hospital. Someone was washing my
feet at the hospital, saying, your feet have blood on them, or something like that.
Q Do you remember that there was blood on your pajama bottoms?
A Only from
what Specialist Newman testified to.
Q Well, do you have any specific recollection of
A No, I don't.
Q Well, when you looked in that mirror in the bathroom, I
don't know how--what the dimensions of the mirror are, and I don't know how high it's
located on the wall, but did you see--let's say--below the crotch in the mirror?
doubt it. I mean, I don't--
Q You could see--
A --recollect at that time.
Q --maybe down in the pubic
area, but that would be as far as it would go?
A Right, right.
Q Do you remember
seeing any blood on your pajamas when you were looking in the mirror?
At that time
you were wearing only your pajama bottoms?
A Right, no, I don't recall that at all.
Q So far as the pajama tops were concerned there was no struggle in the bedroom;
you just rid yourself of them; you discarded them; then you reached out when you were
beside Colette's body; you retrieved them; you placed them over Colette's body to keep
A (Nods affirmatively)
Q And you obtained something from the--across
her body, on the chair there, and covered her with that?
A (Nods affirmatively) That
stretcher, apparently according to testimony went down the hallway, and out the front
door. It didn't go back out the back door.
Q Yeah, that's your recollection, too, isn't
A Yeah, I think so. I remember we were going down the front steps, and I was
sliding off the stretcher again, and someone was holding me on.
Q Okay, let me ask
you this, then: as you were going out through the living room on the stretcher, did you
make any observations as to the disarray in the living room; that is the coffee table
being overturned; various things lying on the floor?
A No, sir.
Q Did you make any
observation concerning--well, for example--where the afghan was that you covered
A No, sir.
Q Or anything of that sort?
Q If I were to show
you--I know you've seen the picture in the past, but if I were to show you a photograph
of that area as it appeared when it was being photographed, would that refresh your
recollection as to the fact that you saw something like that on your way out?
A I don't
think so. Quite honestly, I don't--I didn't take any notice of the living room at all.
Q You remember where Colette set down her purse when she came in the house that
Q Was it a custom to set it down somewhere in the living room or--
A Oh, upon--I believe this is a desk here. If this is a desk, it would go there a
lot. Sometimes she'd put it on the dining table, or sideboard; or usually actually her
purse was in here on the bureau.
(Witness indicates on floor plan.)
Q Yes, how
about your wallet or your billfold; where did you leave it that night, do you re-call?
A No, it usually was left on here, on my bureau--you know--with my keys, change and
stuff like that.
Q Well, you don't recall on this occasion where you left it?
A No, sir.
Q One other question, was Colette--did she have any compunctions as to
neatness--was she a very strict housekeeper? Was she sort of relaxed and casual?
A She was pretty casual. She wasn't nearly as compulsive as I was. When I come
home, I hang my clothes up. She comes home, and throws them on the chair, and
maybe--you know --she'll put them in the closet, but the house was--you know--always
presentable and clean, but she wasn't like on her hands and knees scrubbing day and
night by any means.
Q Dr. MacDonald, do you recall tracing your movements as set
forth on this diagram, whether at any time because of pain or difficulty in breathing, that
instead of walking, you got down to the floor and proceeded on your hands and knees?
A No, I don't think I ever proceeded on my hands and knees. I think the reference
you're having is some comments I made that I was on my hands and knees or that was
my recollection, and I believe that was next to Colette.
I really don't know--you
know--which specific time.
Q Well, to give her any treatment at all you had to be on
your hands and knees?
A Right, but I mean I was at one point on my hands and
knees, and I was thinking that I was short of breath. That's--you know--that's what I
Q Well, while you were moving around, did you experience any
difficulty in breathing or any sharp pain? I understand when you have a pneumothorax,
there is pain involved.
A Right, I remember I had chest pain. I also had a lot of head
pain, but I don't distinctly remember getting down on my hands and knees although
that's been alleged in the past.
Q Now, when you arrived at the hospital, did you at
some time after you arrived there, personally examine yourself and notice the various
injuries that you had on your body at that time?
A Unh-hunh, sure.
Q Now, the
other day some photographs were taken. Were--did they accurately depict and
represent the location of these various injuries?
A The location, right, a lot of them
aren't visible anymore.
Q Would--you--all right, now, would you describe to the grand
jury just what these injuries were that you observed; where they were located, the type
of injury, whether it was a superficial skin abrasion or penetrating wound?
Q And give us some sort of indication of where there was a penetrating wound, the
depth of the penetration, and anything you care to say about it.
A Sure, let me just
preface that by saying that I have never really said this before, because obviously I was
the accused and it sounds ridiculous for you to testify about your own medical wounds,
but if I may say that if the exam I had by Jacobson were done anywhere other than in
the Army, it wouldn't be any good.
It was a totally inadequate medical record of an
examination, from any physician's viewpoint.
It's the first time I've ever said that, but
it's true. And it's--you know--one of the two or three major reasons this case is still
going on and I'm here; because of the medical record.
I was never re-examined
after the emergency room. No one ever came in and looked at me and examined me.
You know, you have a chest tube, and someone normally comes in and listens to
the lungs, once in a while. They didn't do that. That is inadequate medical care.
And I don't care what anyone thinks anymore. That's shitty. If I treated my
patients that way, I would expect my associates to come in on me in groups.
when I tell you the wounds I had, a lot of them, essentially the minor ones or the more
superficial ones aren't listed in the medical report.
But that medical report is not a
routine medical report by any means. There is no doctor that would be proud of that
In any case, now that I have expounded, the wounds that I had--I
had a fairly large--you know--contusion and abrasion type wound on my left forehead. I
had a wound in the right hairline on this side (indicating) that I honestly didn't notice until
two or three days later--you know--three or four days later I felt it, and when I was up
and around in my hospital room, you could see it in the mirror. It was just kind of
merging with the hairline, but it was kind of a large bump--
Q (Interposing) In other
words, two or three days later there was some discoloration that made it conspicuous?
Q Up until that time it wasn't noticeable?
A Yeah, right, all I knew up
until that I was having headaches--you know--I was getting a lot of Demerol and stuff,
but despite the Demerol, I--you know--kept remarking, gee, I've got this throbbing
headache type thing.
As a matter of fact at one time the nurse gave me Demerol
and she said, that should take care of it.
And I said, no, give me some aspirin or
something like that, because it wasn't--it wasn't the terrific pain that you need Demerol
for, but it was an aching headache, if you follow what I mean, like a toothache.
in the bathroom, I saw this thing, you know, that's all.
And there were a
couple--what I thought were a couple, and again it was really just a field, really, back
here, behind and over the left ear area, there were a couple of lumps in my head.
Quite honestly, you know--it wasn't that impressive. It wasn't that impressive or
feel that impressive to me.
But I could also bring in a hundred neurosurgeons in a
row, and every one of them would say that there was no relationship to the external
head wound to what actually happened.
In other words, there's no relationship
between three things: the external head wound, the level of consciousness, and severity
of injury to the brain.
I mean you could never find anyone except the coroner that
they brought in to testify to that. It just isn't--it's crazy. I see people die in my
emergency room every day, old winos with one little lump on their head. You know, it
just isn't legitimate medical practice.
Anyway, on my left arm, I had what I would
describe as a knife wound, about an inch cut in the left biceps, and there were about
three, what I would say were puncture wounds.
Q Now, the knife wound, was that a
slicing wound or a penetrating wound?
A That was a penetrating wound.
deep was the penetration?
A I don't know, but it was pouting. The fatty tissue on it
Q How deep is the fatty tissue?
A That's just below the skin. That's
Q Yeah, when you say it was pouting, what does it have to do with respect to
the depth of the wound?
A Well, it's to mean you're cut at least a quarter of an
inch. But that's to say get to the fat.
Q I see.
A You know, you don't usually probe
those wounds. There's no need to probe them as long as they have a pulse.
Q Did it
A No, he--Dr. Jacobson just bandaged it up.
Q And you have a
little scar there, now, I take it--
Q --indicating that line?
A Right, and
there were a couple of puncture wounds in that biceps in the same area, and over the
next couple of days the whole area turned black and blue. And it was sore just
indicating--you know--that there was a large contusion type wound. But that's not
indicated anywhere. So it all becomes very confusing.
And the CID says, how was
he hurt? And the medic says, he was all right. And then six weeks later they start
questioning the doctors.
I had--there was a scratch somewhere on my right
shoulder. I remember it as being my right shoulder. Other people have said it was the
right arm, but I really think it was the right shoulder. Nothing, really.
Q Well, that
would be a fingernail-type scratch, I take it?
A Actually that isn't how I remembered
it. It was just a scratch, a linear scratch. It was like a linear scratch, you know, like a
couple of inches in length.
Q Well, now, yeah, but--
A Like you scratch yourself on
wood, a nail, glass, or--you know--superficial knife scratch that--
A --doesn't--nothing at all.
Q Well, let me ask you this, could you have picked up a
scratch like that playing basketball as you did? That is a contact sport.
you couldn't get a knife wound or ice pick type wound, but could you have picked it up
playing basketball like this?
A I'm sure I could have done that, I'm sure. You can get
one, a scratch like that, I'm sure.
I don't remember getting one, but you could get one,
Q Yeah, but as you recall when you were playing basketball, that there was
contact of that type?
A We were playing contact, sure, but no scratches.
A On my chest, on the right chest, there was a--what I would describe as
a knife wound, about an inch, three quarters of an inch to an inch, just a little bit medial
towards the mid-line of the body, and about two inches below my right nipple, which
ends up being the center intercostal space, between the seventh and eighth ribs.
that the wound when your immediate thought was, this guy carries a hell of a punch?
Q And that is the wound that caused the pneumothorax condition?
would presume so, yes.
Q Well, was there any other wound that you had that might
cause the pneumothorax condition?
A Not on the right chest. There were--there
were other puncture wounds on the upper left chest, but--
Q But the pneumothorax
was on the right side?
Q And would it be safe to conclude--would you as a
doctor conclude that that wound was the cause of the--
A Oh, sure.
Q All right.
A There were--there was a couple of
kind of--I don't know--three or four puncture wounds --you know--I would say were ice
pick wounds. But they were just circular puncture wounds.
Q Well, is there any way
of making any sort of conclusions as to how deep they were?
Q Was there
any indication of internal bleeding as a result of these wounds?
A No. On my
abdomen, there was--what has been variously described as a--well, I'll give you my
description. There was a laceration, kind of a superficial type that was about--it was
really a total of three inches, but it wasn't three inches in one straight line.
like an upside-down "Y," is what it looked like. The "Y" was like this, and then the
wound extended up a little bit.
Q How do you--how do you distinguish between a
laceration and a scratch?
A A scratch doesn't go through the skin,
but a laceration is through the skin into the subcutaneous tissue.
Q Does that get into
the fatty subcutaneous tissue?
A Yeah, yeah, as they were dressing it, I could see
the fat at least.
Q And what was the treatment they gave you for that?
A They just
dressed it, strapped it together and dressed it.
Q There were no stitches?
Q You still have evidence of that wound on your body?
Q Is that a scar?
Q And is it a broad scar or a narrow scar?
A It's kind of two scars
running together. It's you know, relatively narrow, fairly narrow.
Q That would be
indicated on the photographs that were taken the other day?
A Yes, presuming the
film comes out.
Q You seem not to have too much confidence in the photographer?
A If I told you what happened up there, you wouldn't believe me.
Q Up where?
A In the FBI office taking the photographs and the hair samples.
Q Well, I think that's
another case. That'll come up perhaps next year, not this year.
right, any other wounds?
A Yeah, there was a same type of puncture wounds that
was on my chest, there was a whole series of them. There was a couple right around
the stab wound--you know--in the laceration, and they were--I would say about eight on
the other--you know--on this side of my right--right side of my belly button, roughly
across from where the laceration was.
They did not show up as scars. They were
circular, non-bleeding, and I really only noticed them a couple of days later, because
there was little scabs on each one.
And--you know--in reconstructing it, you know,
you know, remembered it.
Really, it wasn't--I was just laying in the hospital. I didn't
Oh, there was a--one of my two hands had--I don't know which hand, I
think my left hand had little--almost like paper cuts in the web space between the
forefinger and the thumb.
I don't remember if it was my left or right hand.
do you mean by paper cut?
A Well, like little nicks, little lacerations that just raises the
skin, like when you run your finger over a piece of paper and you get a finger cut at the
end of your finger. That's what they were like, you know--
Q That is a wound that
normally wouldn't--a little body fluid might flow out, but it wouldn't be a bloody wound?
A Right, exactly, right.
Q Anything else?
A Not that I can remember.
Q Do you
recall how many wounds there were altogether? I mean, can you break them down
according to type; that is ice pick type, or knife type, scratch type?
A Okay, there was
one scratch. There were--I would say--I would say four only because I have a--you
know--a kind of a recollection there were two separate lumps back here; four contusions
to the head. There was a much larger contusion to my left shoulder in addition to--there
were three stab wounds. Actually the one on the abdomen, I always remember it as a
"Y," but the scar even now is two scars running together, just running down together, so
that the stab wound in the area of the abdomen, the stab wound in the left chest, and
the stab wound in the left biceps, and then as far as puncture wounds, there were
roughly three, six, nine and eight, about seventeen.
Q When you were in the hospital
and this--recovering from these things--
A It's interesting, sir--excuse me for
interrupting, sir, it's interesting to me that my lawyers told me that on reading the
autopsy reports, most of the puncture wounds also didn't penetrate, which is just a little
interesting sideline, like, which Mr. Segal just told me about the other day, when we
were discussing, which I was unaware of.
Go ahead, I'm sorry.
Q Well, did you
consider asking somebody to take a photograph of you so you'd have a record of these
A For what purpose, sir?
Q Well, that's not my question. Did you
A No, sir.
Q And I take it no one suggested it to you? That is no
investigator, doctor, or members of your family?
A No, sir, there were a lot of people
who saw them other than me. The problem is Jacobson didn't see them. And he's the
one who wrote the medical record.
Q All right, tell me who the people who those
people would be. I take it your mother would be one?
Q The Kassabs
would be others?
Q Who else?
Captain Williams, Drs. McGann and Manson from Boston. I presume Dudley
Warner. I don't know--it was like how many of each specifically? Like when they came
in the room, I didn't take down the sheet and take off dressings on certain wounds and
stuff like that.
But I'm sure anyone who was in the room would remember more than
the doctor who was in the emergency room who then never examined me again.
I recall it, Dr. Gemma, the surgeon who put in the chest tube misplaced the chest
wound about three inches when he instructed the CID, when he was questioned by the
And then he told that to Dr. Fisher in Baltimore, the coroner, who comes down
and testifies without examining me.
Q You mean--you mean he misplaced it, in his
recollection he thought it was several inches from the post where it actually was?
Q How did he misplace it, to the side?
A Right, according to Dr.
Fisher. Dr. Gemma never told us that. Dr. Gemma told us he gave him an accurate
representation of where the wounds were. But when Dr. Fisher testified, without having
explained me, he stated under oath that he was misled by the investigators and by the
doctors, and that's why he concluded that I was guilty.
Q Did he say--did he testify
that he concluded that you were guilty?
A No, that was the question put to him by the
prosecutor, if you can believe that, a prosecutor calls in a doctor who has never
examined me and says to him, have you been instructed about the case. And he said,
yes, I have been instructed about the case. Did you visit the crime scene? Yes, I
visited the crime scene.
Are you aware of the wounds that Captain MacDonald had
or--you know--was purported to have? And he said, yes I am.
Somers then asked him--and after all this, what is your conclusion as to who committed
So my lawyers, all four of them, went right through the roof, and Colonel
Rock was sitting there with his mouth hanging open, and looking at Captain
Somers. And Mr. Segal was objecting. And he said, that's the most absurd question I
ever heard of, or things along that line.
And Colonel Rock said that was an
improper question, that he couldn't answer the question. I mean, how could--
Q Well, he was not called for the purpose of testifying as to whether or not you were
guilty or innocent.
A Yes, sir, he was, sir. Absolutely.
Q Was he?
A That's the
reason he was there. They put it under the guise of him--they put it under the guise of
him saying that I could have self-inflicted all my wounds, see--
Q I see.
what he was really called down was to make a definitive statement as to who committed
A And he stated under oath he had been misled by the
investigators as to my wounds.
Q Now, would you tell the jury, please, the wound
which was apparently the most critical; it was the seventh--
A The seventh intercostal
Q Intercostal space. Are there any principal or major arteries in that area?
A Major arteries? Yeah. There's an intercostal artery under each rib that's a major
artery that you can bleed to death from.
Q That is the space under the rib?
A Yeah, the space between the ribs is about that wide, (indicating) and running
underneath it--about an inch wide, half an inch actually, depending on the curvature of
the next rib.
But running around each rib from around the back to around the front
is a larger artery along with the nerve.
Q All right, now, when you penetrate into that
area, let's say, a direct penetration, through what tissues does the instrument go and at
what point in depth do you reach those tissues?
A Well, the skin would be the first
thing. Then you'd pass through--oh, depending on the person, but in my case it would
be like, oh, a quarter to half inch of subcutaneous tissue, a little less than that; a quarter
of an inch of subcutaneous tissue.
Then there are muscles, between each rib, that
are called intercostal muscles. There are two layers of those. They're probably
another three eighths of an inch thick. And assuming you don't hit a rib, you then hit the
lining or the outside lining of the, of the pleural cavity which is a very thin membrane;
less than paper thin, you know. And then you hit the lung.
That is the lung itself.
Q Then is there another lining--
Q The inside lining that is--surrounds the
A Yeah, but that's only a potential space. That's not a real space. That's like
saying there's a space between my hands. There is if I move them apart, but the lung
is up against that membrane.
Q Is there a fluid between the two linings, to lubricate
A Ah, nothing you can measure, but yes, there is some.
Q Then you have the
Q And if you penetrate into and through the lung, what do you
A Well, it depends--the lung itself is nothing but a mass of blood vessels. So
it depends on what--I believe your initial question was bleeding or arteries. The lung is
nothing but series of blood vessels.
Q I know, but I--initially when you strike the
diaphragm and eventually will you strike the liver?
A Yeah, it's--it's actually it's very
likely in that area. It--
Q Well, how deep do you have to go to get to that far to the
point where you can strike the liver?
A Well, actually it depends on really, I guess, on
the person. I don't know.
Q All right, well, I take it as a medical student you
performed autopsies. You have examined--
A Right. We are talking about--it's hard
to describe. You have to look at the side of a chest from the side.
diaphragm goes up in an arch. Okay, and the liver is pushing the diaphragm up in the
Now, that diaphragm can be right against the chest wall at that point. You
know--that's low. That's really over the liver--when you percuss the chest you can hear
the liver like at the sixth. So, you're already over the liver. It's just a matter of where--
Q But the lung--
A --it arches.
Q But the lung comes down as far as the
seventh, doesn't it?
A In some people. Usually it does. It's a little--a little
tongue. Now that part of the lung slides down when you take a breath.
Q And when
there's an incision made deep enough to let air into the chest cavity, air does enter and
then you have this pneumothorax condition, is that correct?
Q And the
fact that there's air in the space outside the lung within the chest cavity, interferes with
the normal breathing process, is that correct?
A Right, that's correct.
Q And that's
what's called a pneumothorax?
Q Now, does the air in the chest tend to
rise towards the upper part of the chest?
Q As a result of breathing action?
A Not really, no. It doesn't. No, the lung normally collapses usually uniformly. If
you take an x-ray, the lung is collapsed--you know--in a--all through the chest.
Q Were you conscious--conscious, Doctor, when they put these tubes in your body?
A In my chest.
Q Yeah, in your chest?
Q They inserted two tubes; one
after the other?
Q I take it they gave you local anesthetic?
Q And having given you a local anesthetic, they inserted an instrument which carried a
tube with it and that tube--
Q --was inserted to relieve--
Q --the air--to evacuate the air that had collected in your chest?
they first put in one and later put in another one?
Q And when did
that--when was that pneumothorax condition relieved? How long after you were in the
A I really don't remember. The--the first chest tube was put in--I don't
know--somewhat--you know--somewhat shortly after I got there. I don't remember
when the second one was put in. I guess it was later that day. We're talking about
Q The first one was done by Dr. Jacobson, perhaps in association with other
A Yes, I think so.
Q Do you know who did the second one?
A I think
Q And to insert these tubes, they had to in effect make the same type of
an incision as the wound itself--
A That's right.
Q --that you suffered from, did they
A That's right.
Q And perhaps the same depth?
A Right, except in a
different area, which they neglected to mention to Dr. Fisher.
Q Well, you were under
more or less a local anesthetic. Do you know how deeply they penetrated to insert the
A No, sir, it's a very painful process.
Q Even though you're under local
Q I take it the local anesthetic controls the pain in the upper
part, but not the lower part, and when they get in the lower part, you can feel the actual
A No, the local anesthetic controls the pain in the skin and subcutaneous
tissues, but when you hit the pleura, the lining of the lungs is what you're talking about,
that's what's the most painful.
Q And that's when they know they've hit the pleura,
because that's when you react to the pain?
A (Nods affirmatively)
mentioned that you were being given Demerol and I don't know what effect that has on
a person, you refer to it as a pain killer for a severe pain. Does it have any psychic
Q Would you tell us about that?
A Well, it really can do
anything. It's a--you get groggy. Some people get incoherent. You know--a lot of
addicts use it to get high on. It's not really a high. It's a low. It's a downer drug. But--I
know you're probably getting confused.
A Some people think--some people
feel good on it. And, you know, and I always--and you then wonder, well, what do they
do in their spare time.
But most people don't--what Demerol does, really, it doesn't
take away the pain, but it tells your brain that you don't care about the pain.
what it really does, pharmacologically.
You still have the pain except your brain is
telling you you really don't care about the pain.
Q Well, had you had Demerol before?
A Had I ever had Demerol before?
A Oh, yeah, I had it when I had a
back injury in high school in football. I think. I guess.
That's just by assumption.
Q Well, did anyone that came to see you that first day, and I assume there were a
number of people that came in that day, remark to you that you seemed to be a little bit
A Oh, a lot of people.
Q Did they have any trouble engaging you in
conversation or discussion?
Q Would you tell us specifically who?
mean I just went--I really wasn't making any sense to anyone.
I was--it seemed to
me that--no, I honestly can't say that someone said to me, gee, you sound confused.
Is that what you're asking for?
A I don't remember hearing those
specific words from anyone.
Q Well, someone has told me about a conversation you
had--I think shortly after you arrived at the hospital with one of the doctors, and you had
both had the experience of treating a young man who apparently was a drug abuser,
and who apparently committed suicide by going out of a window.
A Oh, yeah, I--I
didn't treat him, but I had heard about it.
Q It was on an occasion when you had been
associated with this doctor before. Remember that?
A No, no, I mean I remember
the incident, a guy who walked out of the ninth story window.
Q Well, at a time when
you were on duty in the hospital and this other doctor was on duty?
A No, I wasn't on
duty in the hospital. I heard about that. I heard about that.
A I mean it was
a relatively novel thing, even for Fort Bragg.
Q Well, I may be confused. I just--there
was an account of a conversation that you had, not too long after you arrived, and when
you went to--met this doctor, and you were identifying yourself to him, and he was
identifying himself to you.
And the subject came up of this young man who was a
drug abuser, and somehow or other he died, and I thought it was going out the window
of a hospital.
A That occurred at Womack Army Hospital, but I had nothing to do with
that. I didn't even know much about it.
I knew a guy allegedly had been on a bad
trip, and he was brought up to the ninth floor, and he walked out the window.
didn't remember discussing that the morning of February 17 in the hospital with one of
the first doctors that you came in contact with?
A No, I don't. I don't believe I did.
FOREMAN: Mr. Woerheide, let's take about a ten-minute recess.
WOERHEIDE: All right, sir.
FURNITURE FROM THE FORT BRAGG HOME OF DR. MACDONALD WAS
BROUGHT INTO THE ROOM AND SET UP FOR A DEMONSTRATION OF HOW THE
(DR. MacDONALD RETURNS TO THE GRAND JURY
MR. WOERHEIDE: Dr. MacDonald, we're not going to ask you to resume
the witness stand.
As you can see, Dr. MacDonald, we brought here at this time the
sofa, coffee table, the chair, and we have the afghan.
We have certain things that
were around the house on this evening, and so that with it on the coffee table, including
the evening paper, you will notice.
And we don't have a flower pot. We have
Let me ask you first, can you identify the sofa?
A Yes, I can.
Q Can you identify the afghan?
A Yes, that's the afghan.
Q Can you identify the
Q Can you identify the chair?
Q Now, assuming
that this was the east wall of the bedroom, and--I mean the east wall of the living room,
the wall adjacent to Kim's bedroom, and assuming this is the entrance to the hall, where
this gentleman is standing, would this be the approximate location of the furnishings in
your house on that evening?
A You mean as they are right exactly here?
Q No, I
mean just--I'm just asking you first if it's approximate, and if it's not, if you--if anything
should be changed, I want you to change it.
If the sofa, if that's too close or too far
away from the door, I want you to change it.
A My recollection would be that it would
be closer, kind of like that. (Moving sofa.)
Q Well, so that's about it? All right, now,
how about the coffee table? Should we move that?
A Well, it would be sort of like
this,--(Moving coffee table.)
Q And how about the chair, where would that be?
A That would be right here where you can't put it.
Q Well, we'll put it as close as you
can. Would be there and a little further over back against the wall?
A Yeah, a little
Q What angle would it be?
A It would--it would normally be like that.
Q At an
A Angle it a little bit. More like this.
Q It would be back and more generally
facing the television set, is that it?
MR. WOERHEIDE: Well, I don't
suppose there's any way we can move that thing, is there?
STROUD: Why don't we put the couch up and down this way, and the coffee table--
JUROR: This chair can be moved there.
MR. STROUD: And put the chair back over
here or what do you think?
MR. WOERHEIDE: Well, what--we have a problem of
logistics here, because this young lady is all wired up, and, why don't we--let's go off the
record. There's no use in putting all this down.
(FURNITURE IS MOVED AND CHANGED IN THE GRAND JURY ROOM TO MORE
ACCURATELY CONFORM WITH THE WITNESS'S DESCRIPTION OF ITS LOCATION
IN HIS HOUSE.)
(DR. MacDONALD RETURNS TO THE GRAND JURY ROOM.)
MR. WOERHEIDE: Dr. MacDonald, we have made some changes in the room, now,
since you were here in the grand jury room before.
This would be the east wall of
the living room, where you are standing; the corner of the dais for our foreman would be
the entrance to the hallway.
Now, will you please make any rearrangement of the
furniture that you deem necessary in order to properly show where they were located on
A Well, I would say normally the coffee table would be a little bit
closer. Probably it would be about that.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Okay.
How about the couch in relation to the door?
A That's about how I would remember
it. I would say about six or eight or ten inches from the edge of the hallway is
approximately how I would remember it.
MR. WOERHEIDE: All right.
A First of
all this room gives you a sense of a much larger room. The living room was very much
smaller than this, it would seem to me.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Yes.
A And this
would be somewhere like this, approximately.
Q (Mr. Woerheide) Would you say
that the table behind which you were standing would be representative of the wall which
had, I think, a picture window in it?
A This would be the wall of the house, yes, right.
Q So, we're narrowing the limits of this room by about that much.
you say about where the gentleman is standing would be--
A That would be the front
Q That would be the front door?
A It's only like eight or nine feet from the
Q And would you be--would you say approximately where the blonde
lady is sitting or maybe slightly to her right, would be where the television was set up?
A Oh, it might be, but I don't think it was that big. It may be that far. I doubt it.
Q Well, where would the kitchen wall and corner of the closet be?
A About where
you are, sir.
Q About where I am. Now, I'm away--this is where it would start?
A That's right, that should be about right.
Q That should be about right for the
Q --of the room?
A That's right.
Q And then the dining room
would be in this area?
Q Where I am. Well, let's take a marker and
mark a circle around the coffee table and legs, and the--I don't know how good that is.
A This is--I didn't--I don't recollect--you know--where this chair was that night. This is
the usual position for it.
Q Well, you don't have any reason to believe it was any place
else other than the usual position, do you?
A Or--well, unless I was reading--
Q (Interposing) You don't just remember moving it yourself or Kim moving it or
anything of that sort?
A Right, unless someone had been like--if I had turned it to put
my feet up on the table or the chair or something.
Q Yes, I understand.
A Well, you
said it's not too important. That's the reason I'm trying to be--
Q (Interposing) No,
it's not going to become any more important than you make it.
You say this usually
was--you were laying on the floor for a while that night?
You did watch T.V. You
may have watched it from the chair?
Q You were asleep for a while. Kim
was playing around. She could have been in and out of the chair, and there may have
been some slight variations in the position of the chair as a result of that.
A And there was a rug on the floor.
Q Yeah, and that does make a
difference in the sounds that you can hear, and that makes things--it's easier to slide
things on a slick floor than it is on a floor with a rug on it.
Okay, now, these are your
cushions from your house, but I think that the cushions that actually were on the sofa
that night were returned to you, and you either disposed of them or you still have them,
one or the other.
MR. STROUD: Do you still have them?
A I don't even--
MR. STROUD: One of them is a leopard skin covered type.
A I have a leopard skin
pillow, but I can't imagine that I have a pillow from then.
MR. STROUD: It's sort of
square, thick, about that thick (indicating) leopard skin.
A I have one of those.
MR. STROUD: Would that be the one that was in the apartment?
A I have no idea.
Q (Mr. Woerheide) Did you have sort of a lawn sale or a garage sale or whatever
they call it of any of your property when it was returned to you?
A I gave a lot of it
Q And you remember giving the cushions to anyone?
Q Well, I'm
going to ask you this, Dr. MacDonald, you've been very cooperative in all respects, and
I very much appreciate your cooperation, and I will show you a photograph that
indicates a leopard skin cushion, and another cushion which I think was under the
leopard skin cushion, and was on your sofa when it was photographed and if you do
have those cushions, I would ask you if you're willing to cooperate to the extent of
making them available to us.
I will show you the photographs before you leave so
you can identify them.
Now, as I say, there were two cushions on the sofa.
you remember when you were lying there that night that those cushions--were
there--were a couple of cushions there or you had some support for your head, or were
you lying--I learned something here today, the difference between prone and--
Q Supine. Were you just lying supine without any cushions?
A I don't
know. I usually sleep without a pillow.
Q Well, will you show us how you were
sleeping there, and if you want to take off your shoes or take off your jacket--I'm not
asking you to disrobe yourself, but would you show us how it was that you were lying
there, and how were you covered with the afghan?
A I don't remember how I was
covered with the afghan, Mr. Woerheide. I will reconstruct for you what probably is an
I usually sleep like this.
And being a large
man, your feet hang over the end of the sofa as I do, which mine always do.
now, Mr. Stroud, Mr. Foreman--you're a young lady, do you want to take part in this?
I'm pretty big, I'm bigger than any of the people you described. I mean I'm so big
that I know that--you know--will you direct these people what they should do, Dr.
MacDonald, and do what you think you should do to indicate to us what happened?
Let's place this gentleman--
A Well, I'd rather use Mr. Stroud for the
assailant. You know--it's only appropriate.
MR. STROUD: No, it is not appropriate.
A This is the position that I was in, like this, when I was
awakened, I was lying flat on my back.
Q Now, were these two people closer
A It's approximately correct--you know.
Q (Mr. Stroud) Were they this
close to the end of the couch, or were they back against the wall more?
A Oh, no,
they were closer.
Q Would you say it was closer?
Q Like that?
A Just like that.
Q (Mr. Woerheide) I understand you rise up and at the same time
Mr. Stroud comes down beside the coffee table?
A Right, right, the gentleman to my
MR. STROUD: Sort of one step in?
A Right. And I was getting up like this,
and I--either I was saying, or I was getting ready to say, what the hell is going on here?
MR. STROUD: And then what happened?
A And then this gentleman--not you,
MR. STROUD: I understand.
A --the assailant is raising or using a
MR. STROUD: With one or two hands as I understand your description.
A Yes, but it was off to the right side.
MR. STROUD: Like this?
A Sort of like
that, but it wasn't really like that.
(Mr. Stroud moves hand position.)
that. Right, and he went like that. And that's what happened, and he hit me with it.
And my best recollection of that then is I was back down on the couch like this. And so
I was getting up again like this.
And he started hitting me again like that, and I
reached up and grabbed the arm.
Q (Mr. Woerheide) All right, grab his arm, and
while you're doing that, these guys, what're they doing?
A It was--it was when I was
holding the arm that I realized that these guys were punching me as far as being hit.
Q Can you suggest as to who was punching you?
FOREMAN: We've got to get to
him. It looks like we have to move closer.
A Right, and I was sort of like trying to
get up at this point. And I slid off the arm down onto the club.
I assume he was
jerking it backwards.
Q All right.
A So it was sort of like this.
Q And they were
still punching you?
A I don't think my hands went over two hands. My hands went
over one hand it seems like.
A And he jerked back, and I was down on it
Q Okay, right.
A And then--you know--it was sort of then that I felt the
blow that was the heavy blow, I thought.
Q Okay. And that was in this area, so he
had to get under your arm, or elbow--
One of these two?
MR. STROUD: Can you specify which one?
A No, it seems like it would have to be his left arm or this gentleman.
Woerheide) All right, and he had to strike you sort of under your forearm and elbow in
order to get in there?
A If there--you know--if this guy is going like this--
Q I see.
A --trying to jerk the club away, and I'm trying to hold onto the club.
And this is when you saw the stripes?
A Well, no, I saw the stripes when I was up
holding an arm, actually.
The reason I thought--let me correct something, I
think. When I was trying to debrief my lawyers last night, and--you know--telling them
the questions you would ask and what was said in the room, let's see--I was trying to
remember whether I said right or left to you.
Because I really meant the right. And
I thought, gee, I've been saying left all afternoon, probably.
So, what my
recollection was or what I've always pictured in mind is I was holding this arm because
it, as I said, it seemed his body was here; right here.
MR. STROUD: Closer to you?
A Closer to me. Right, right like that, right, just like you.
MR. STROUD: And
the club, where would that be?
A He started jerking it back, and I slipped on it, but
it seemed like I slipped on one hand, and that's why I have always, in my mind, pictured
his body right in front of me, so it was his right side, his right arm, follow me?
A And then I had this and--what I thought was a heavy punch on the right side--you
Q All right, now, how did you get up off the couch and get to the point
where you fell?
MR. STROUD: Let's get--can we get the young lady situated, where
you had seen her and how?
A That's exactly how it happened, sir, that's exactly
how it was. It was a glimpse as I was --I believe it was the first time I was up, and I just
saw her for a split second.
MR. STROUD: The first time up, they would have been
back a little further, right?
MR. STROUD: All right, back about like
MR. STROUD: And you saw her between them?
exactly as I see her now. That's all I ever saw, just exactly that right there. That's all I
ever saw, just exactly that right there. That's exactly what happened.
STROUD: Was she that close behind them, or further behind?
A I don't know. I
MR. STROUD: All right, excuse me. I didn't--
Woerheide) Why don't y'all just stand there, and we'll make a couple more
marks? We've got you in position now.
MR. WOERHEIDE: How about putting your
foot down? And you get your left foot down on the floor.
(Mr. Woerheide makes
pen marks on the floor to indicate position of assailants.)
MR. WOERHEIDE: Were
you a little closer or are you just about right?
A That would be about right.
WOERHEIDE: Okay, thank you, sir.
Q (Mr. Woerheide) Now, somehow or other
you have to come forward far enough to get off the couch?
Q And as
you're going down, you're seeing a knee, and a boot top and somehow or other then
means you have got to get between or--these people or you have to get between our
foreman and the corner of the dais there, and--to get to that point?
Q Now, will you direct them?
A I don't know if I can direct them, sir. This is--
Q Would you do your best?
A Okay, I sure will. Sometime during this, I was up like
this. I don't know if it was when I was holding onto his arm and he jerked away, and I
was being pulled up, but I was up. So I must have been up this high.
A Okay, and then the next thing I knew I was going off the end of the couch like this.
A Yeah, and all that happened was I saw a knee.
Q Somehow or
other they had to get out of your way?
A That's right. He could have backed up a
step or stepped sideways, and I went between them.
Q But you ended up into the
Q How did you get in that position to the hall?
A Well, the
steps are right at the foreman's heel, and when I sort of came to, I was laying right
MR. STROUD: But you remember falling?
A I remember just
really going forward towards the steps, that's right.
MR. STROUD: And seeing the
shoe or the boot and knee?
A I saw a knee and what I thought was a top of a boot.
Q (Mr. Woerheide) Now, and as I recall you said the lady moved slightly. Now,
that would put her maybe about like this?
A I didn't say she moved. I said it must
have been her because I saw a knee there.
Q What you saw, would she be--would
she be about here when you saw the knee? Now, is that a proper location?
would presume that would be about right. So here, apparently the foreman would have
to move slightly. (Jury foreman moves.) Correct.
Q And chances are that the two of
them just sort of moved like this--
Q --and you went down here?
MR. WOERHEIDE: This is one, one, two, two.
Woerheide marks placement of feet.)
MR. WOERHEIDE: One, one, two,
A And I just presume that I was helped toward the steps a little by a
blow to the head. I don't know.
Q (Mr. Woerheide) Yep.
MR. STROUD: And one
point while you were in this position is when you recall your arms being bound?
A My arms were being bound here, and I was fending off with both arms, right.
STROUD: Did you have bodily contact between your arms and their body?
Q (Mr. Woerheide) I don't have pajamas. I have a towel. Would that be about the
way it was?
Q Where it was?
Q And you're thrusting out
A That's right.
Q And at the same time they are punching at you?
A Right, exactly.
Q And this guy standing on the corner is--
MR. STROUD: What
am I doing?
A Well, there was a couple of blows to my left shoulder and side
during this attack, but that's all I know.
MR. STROUD: You're talking about your left
A You know, we're talking about thirty seconds, at best and that's an
This would be about--you know--my best recollection of what happened.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Okay.
MR. STROUD: When you're punching at them?
A But I don't know whether I tried to get up like this. I would presume that would be
Q (Mr. Woerheide) Let's see, this has to be your footprint?
Q Yes, okay.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Mr. Foreman, it's quarter of twelve,
and I wonder if you want to break at this time for lunch.
FOREMAN: I have only
one question. Did you ever remember the black male backing up away from you?
A No, what happened was, I was holding the club and let go and grabbed him with
these two and that was it.
FOREMAN: So you could have lurched backwards when
A So, absolutely, because I just let go and toppled this way. That's
exactly what happened.
All I had was a sensation of his pulling at me holding
on. But if you will reconstruct it--I'm not trying to make something out of it--but in
reconstructing, I would presume that is what in fact helped me get up a little. And then
I'm struggling this way. I turned from him and that was it, really.
The next thing I
know, I was down there.
Q (Mr. Woerheide) I don't remember now how that afghan
got from where it was over you to where it is now. Could you do that once more?
A Sir, I don't know how it got there either.
JUROR: He laid it back there. When
we went to get up, he took it and laid it back there.
A There was a million ways. I
don't even always use a blanket, by the way. I don't know.
During the struggle I have
no idea. When I got up, it would be right here (indicating), if it was over me--you
know--sometimes I lay--sometime--I never sleep with anything over my feet, by the
way. I know that sounds a little weird, and if it was up this way, it would have been
If the house was hot, and I honestly don't recollect which way the blanket was
when I went to sleep or got up.
Q And you don't recall that you removed the cushions
when you lay down there that night?
A I don't recall. Sometimes, I would. I don't
actually recall that night. Sometimes I actually slept like this. This is how I slept
sometimes. But I don't--you know--recall which was--which was the case.
and you don't remember the table being knocked over--
A No, sir.
Q --or anything
of that sort?
A No, sir.
Q And you don't remember how the scene appeared to you
as you went through to the kitchen or as you were removed from the house or at any
A No, sir.
Q On the morning of February 17?
A That's right.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Okay.
FOREMAN: We'll recess then to one o'clock, if you
like. It's quarter to twelve.
MR. WOERHEIDE: All right.
(FRIDAY AFTERNOON, AUGUST 16, 1974, 1:30 P.M.)
(DR. MacDONALD RETURNS TO THE GRAND JURY ROOM.)
CONTINUED BY MR. WOERHEIDE:
Q Dr. MacDonald, we do have one pile of
magazines and newspaper that came from the house, and there's another pile that was
on the table. Do you remember how those things were that night by any chance?
A No, I do not, sir.
Q Do you recall there were two piles of things?
A No, I do not.
Q Was the flower pot kept usually at the far end of that coffee table where the cup is
A Anywhere in there. Anywhere, really. No, I wouldn't say specifically
on the end, no.
Q Now, we talked previously about cushions. Let me show you a
photograph made of the house on the morning--do you see those cushions?
A Yes, I
Q Do you recognize them?
Q Do you still have those cushions?
A I probably still have the leopard skin, if that's the same one I have in California.
Q Well, would you be so kind as to make it available to us for examination?
with the understanding that may not be the same one.
Q All right, okay. Now, here's
a photograph that shows the coffee table apparently knocked over. Under it are some
magazines and over one leg is a pair of slippers. Are those your slippers?
Q There's a flower pot. Is that the type of flower pot that was on the end of
the coffee table?
A Well, it looks like it, right.
Q Yeah, and there's a bottle of
glue. Does that look like something that Kimberley might have been playing with?
Q And here is a paper box, a cardboard box that apparently has a child's
game in it.
Do you recognize that?
A Well, not specifically. But--you know--I'm
sure it was probably here.
Q Here's another photograph that would enable you to see
better the--the game and the slippers.
A I don't specifically recognize the game,
but--you know--I'm sure it was one of the girls'.
Q And they're your slippers, though?
A They appear to be in the photograph, right.
Q Yeah, have you made an exhibit
MR. WOERHEIDE: Let's mark these as MacDonald
Exhibits one and two of this date.
(MacDONALD EXHIBITS 1 AND 2, DATED
8-16-1974, MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q (Mr. Woerheide) Just to help
you more clearly identify it, this is a picture that depicts the cushions. Does that refresh
your recollection that you also have at your home besides a leopard skin cushion a--one
that has the appearance of the other cushion?
A No, I don't have that one.
WOERHEIDE: All right, well, mark this as MacDonald Exhibit 3.
EXHIBIT 3, DATED 8-16-1974, MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Woerheide) Here are a series of pictures, one looking towards the dining room, you
A Yes, I do.
Q And a blue table cloth and a couple of candle sticks
Q Is that the general appearance of the room on the night of
February 16 - February 17?
A I would presume so.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Will you
mark that as MacDonald Exhibit 4, please?
(MacDONALD EXHIBIT 4, DATED
8-16-1974, MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q (Mr. Woerheide) Here's a black
and white photograph looking towards the T.V. and the closet; shows part of the hi-fi
set; shows a desk.
Can you recognize that?
A Looks like mainly my stuff.
that the way it looked that night, as you recall?
A I really have no distinct recollection
of--you know--of it.
I mean that's the way the room normally looked, yeah.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Let's mark this as MacDonald Exhibit 5 of this date.
(MacDONALD EXHIBIT 5, DATED 8-16-1974, MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
A I don't know whose glasses those would be in there.
Q (Mr. Woerheide) Did
Colette wear glasses?
A Yeah, very infrequently she did.
Q Were they--were her
frames somewhat like those frames?
A I don't remember what her last pair were like
to tell the truth. She hardly ever wore them.
Q Well, she just came back from class,
where she was taking notes and presumably reading what she was writing, if not
reading other material.
Would she use glasses on those occasions?
A She used
them mainly to drive. She drove that night, so they may be here. I don't recognize
Q All right.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Let's mark that as MacDonald's
Exhibit number 5.
REPORTER: It's been marked.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Have all
the exhibits up to this point been marked?
Woerheide) Here's a color photograph that shows mainly the T.V. set and lamp and
part of the hi-fi. There's a blue garment, apparently on the door knob to the
closet. You recognize that?
Q Do you recognize the scene or do you
recognize the garment?
A Right, it looks like one of the kids' coats. We didn't
smoke. I don't know whose cigarettes are those, and whose clipboard, but that is the
Q Yeah, well, I guess the clipboard and the cigarettes are those of an
MR. WOERHEIDE: Will you mark this as MacDonald Exhibit 6, please?
(MacDONALD EXHIBIT 6, DATED 8-16-1974, MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q (Mr. Woerheide) This shows once again the wall with the hi-fi and a part of the
dining room, is that correct?
A That's correct.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Will you mark
this as MacDonald Exhibit 7, please?
(MacDONALD EXHIBIT 7, DATED 8-16-1974,
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q (Mr. Woerheide) One thing I didn't ask you,
Dr. MacDonald, when you went into the living room, I'm sorry, when you went into the
master bedroom, did you see anything written anywhere in the room; on the wall or on
the bed or anywhere else?
A No, I didn't notice anything.
Q You didn't see the
A No, I did not.
Q You didn't observe the word "pig"?
A No, I did
Q Here's a picture taken from the bedroom--I mean--sorry, let me start all over
Here is a picture taken from the living room, it shows a part of the east wall
of the living room, the couch, shows the hallway. And at the end of the hallway, and at
the end of the hallway, covering part of the hall and part of the steps, is a red garment.
Can you tell us if that indicates approximately the point where you were laying at
the time you realized that the house was still and your teeth were chattering?
but I presume the garment wasn't there.
Q Do you know where that garment was?
Q You know how the garment got there?
A Have no idea.
Q Can you tell
us what the garment is?
A I believe--I believe it's--I'm not really sure. Maybe, a
sleeping bag type thing. Or some of it looks like clothing; some of the kids'
clothing. The red thing, I don't know if it's a jacket or a sleeping bag type thing for Kim.
Q Let me ask you: were you shown any of these pictures before?
photographs I'm looking at now?
A Some of them, right.
Q Well, were
you shown that one before?
A I believe I was.
Q And do you remember what if
anything you said about the red garment or the sleeping bag?
A No, I don't. I may
have said that we--sometimes we would leave things--you know--near the end of the
hallway there, and usually when we clean up the living room, you put a few things on
the end of the stair--on the end of the stairway area there.
Q So the next time you go
by, you can take them and place them where they belong, is that it?
WOERHEIDE: Miss Reporter, will you mark that as MacDonald Exhibit number 8?
(MacDONALD EXHIBIT 8, DATED 8-16-1974, MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q (Mr. Woerheide) Dr. MacDonald, I know you were shown various pictures at the
Article 32 hearing. Were you also shown various pictures on the April 6 interrogation?
A Yeah, I believe this is the one--one of the pictures. The last one that I saw was
the one that they showed me, and they showed me another one, apparently
inadvertently, that all the pieces of material and clothing were removed.
purported that both of them were the crime scene,--
A --and even an
untrained observer like myself could see that the photographs were
different. Apparently, the CID couldn't.
Q Were you shown pictures of the bodies?
A Never, sir.
Q You were shown autopsy pictures?
A I was not.
Q Well, just
from reading newspaper accounts and I think these stem from interviews given by your
attorneys, Mr. Segal and Mr. Eisman, there was an account that autopsy pictures were
A Oh, yes.
Q --and I think your mother was there, and she left the
A Yes, Captain Somers--Captain Somers decided that it was better to
put them up on a screen with slides than to show pictures to Colonel Rock.
thought that would be even more helpful.
Q All right, now, what pictures were
projected on this screen?
A Well, the doctor was testifying apparently, there were
some autopsy pictures.
I didn't see the pictures myself.
Q Were you shown the
pictures of the bodies in place upon the bed?
A Seems to me that they--either in the
Article 32 or my lawyer showed them to me once to ask me--you know--as far as my
recollection of the position of the bodies.
I was either shown them once by my
lawyers or in the Article 32, one. I don't know which was right.
Q Were these color
prints or black and white prints or what?
A I believe they were color. I'm not sure.
I have seen some black and white pictures--you know--in relation to the case, but
I'm not sure what they were, which was which--I saw some color pictures and some
black and white.
Q Now, were they of all the girls of your family? That is Colette, and
Kim and Kris? Or were they just of Colette?
A I believe the only ones I've seen were
(Mr. Woerheide looks through book of photographs.)
MacDONALD: If you think that's necessary, Mr. Woerheide, go ahead, but let's get it
MR. WOERHEIDE: I don't think it's necessary, and would you prefer that I
DR. MacDONALD: I do.
MR. WOERHEIDE: All right, we'll forego it.
Q (Mr. Woerheide) Now, so, suffice it to say, just to sum up your testimony, your wife
was lying on the floor, right next to the chair. Colette--Kimberley was lying on the left
side of the bed, she was on her back.
Kris was lying on the right side of her bed;
that is the edge towards the inside of the room, and she was lying on her back. The
only movement that you had to make of any of the bodies was to place your hand under
and sort of raise it slightly for the purpose of giving artificial respiration?
Q You did not change their position?
A (Shakes head negatively)
Q You just left
them the way they were?
A (Nods affirmatively)
Q Made the telephone call. You
don't know how you moved to the position you were found when you--the MPs came
into the house, but somehow or other you got to that place, and you were lying on your
back in a--what is that word--
Q (Mr. Woerheide) --supine
position, and with your head against Colette's body?
A Right. The only people that I
know of that rolled the bodies were apparently the doctor who pronounced death,
apparently rolled Kristy and Colette, or testified that he did at the Article 32 hearing.
He testified that he rolled Kristy over, and he testified that he rolled--rolled over or
sat Colette up. I don't know which.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Mr. Foreman, I do have
other physical evidence. It's in another room. When I say physical evidence, I'm
referring to the club that was shown to Dr. MacDonald previously, two knives and an ice
pick, and there's a piece of board.
And could we just have a few minutes' recess,
so I can procure those things and bring them back to the grand jury?
FOREMAN: Well, it's five minutes to two, so we'll say two o'clock.
WOERHEIDE: Two o'clock?
FOREMAN: Five minutes.
WOERHEIDE: Thank you. Please, people, don't step on the marks.
Q (Mr. Woerheide) Dr. MacDonald, I have certain
physical objects that I am told were found in and in the immediate vicinity adjacent to
your house on the morning of February 17.
I know you have seen these before in
connection with the investigation on the Article 32 hearing.
A Sir, while you're doing
that, may I make a comment relative to your last comment as I was leaving, whereby
you summed up some of the movements--
A --and the movements of the
A I just wanted to again remind you that I did in fact move Colette.
Q Yeah, you shifted her body from the chair slightly to the south away from the chair.
A That's right.
Q Right, I understand.
Dr. MacDonald, can you identify that
piece of wood as an object that belonged to you; that was a part of your supply of scrap
A Sir, it very well could have been in the back well around the back of the
house. I had a lot of scrap lumber. It very well could have belonged to us. I don't
recognize it, however, except when it was shown to me at the Article--at the Article 32.
Q Well, you will see it has some paint on it; paint spots and a mark that appears
somebody used it under an object that was being painted?
Q Could you
tell us by its color, and--whether that was the type of paint that you used?
A Sir, that
looks like the same kind or same color that was used on either a bookcase or a chest of
Q Now, I am told that somewhere on this piece of wood, there was a
telephone number written, and I have been looking at it to see if I could make out the
A Well, the CID probably destroyed it, sir.
Q And I don't find
it. But--did you ever discuss the telephone number being on this club with anyone?
A No, sir.
Q During the course of the investigation?
WOERHEIDE: Miss Reporter, this is the wrapper that that club came in and I am going
to put it back in here. Would you mark that as MacDonald Exhibit number 9 of this
(MacDONALD EXHIBIT 9, DATED 8-16-1974, MARKED FOR
MR. WOERHEIDE: Can you mark this?
Woerheide) All right, I'm going to ask you about a telephone number, 842-5226. Does
it mean anything to you, Dr. MacDonald?
A No, sir.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Miss
Reporter, would you mark this as MacDonald Exhibit number 10 of this date?
(MacDONALD EXHIBIT 10, DATED 8-16-1974, MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
MR. WOERHEIDE: And Miss Reporter, will you in addition mark on this label,
MacDonald Exhibit number 11 - ice pick; and number 12 - knife, of this date?
(MacDONALD EXHIBITS 11 and 12, DATED 8-16-1974, MARKED FOR
Q (Mr. Woerheide) All right, Dr. MacDonald, I show you
MacDonald Exhibit number 10, which is a small kitchen knife. It has the name, "Old
Hickory" on it, and I ask you if you can identify this knife as one of the household knives
of the MacDonald household?
A No, sir. I do not recognize the knife.
Q Prior to
February 16, did you ever see that knife?
A I did not.
Q Are you positive that you
never saw it?
A Yes, it seems to me I would remember it.
Q It's not possible that
Colette had gone out and bought the knife and put it in the drawer and not said anything
to you about it, and there it was?
A Sure, but you asked me if I had ever seen it, and I
have never seen it.
Q You don't recall seeing it?
Q You don't deny
seeing it prior to that date if it was mixed up with a bunch of other knives in your
A I do not recognize this as a knife from my house.
Q Well, let's say I
brought in at this time a--jumble of knives, forks, spoons, ladles, and other utensils that
were in the drawer of your kitchen as of February 16. How many of them would you
A I have no idea, to be honest.
Q Do you think you could recognize
any of them specifically?
A Sure, silverware and things, sure.
Q Now, when you
mean silverware, you mean tableware or kitchen ware?
A Probably mean the
Q Well, how about the odds and ends in the kitchen drawer, paring knives,
the cutting knives, the chopping knives, the slicers, the--
A I'm sure there would be
some I wouldn't be able to recognize.
Q Were the knives that were in the household
returned to you as a part of the property that belonged to you that you took, as you took
the pillows and various other things?
A I don't believe so. I believe the only thing
returned was a set of--a good set of silver.
Q All right, now, MacDonald Exhibit
number 11 is the ice pick and MacDonald Exhibit number 12 is the knife.
in two separate plastic containers, and it's not necessary--I'd just as soon not remove
them, and they have been attached together, so I'll leave them attached together.
And I'll ask you with specific reference to each of these, the ice pick and the knife,
whether you recognize these objects as objects that were a part of your household
A No, sir.
Q Now, you will notice, Dr. MacDonald, that the knife is
somewhat distinctive in the sense that it appears to have been bent.
Do you recall
there being a bent knife in your household?
A I do not.
Q For the record, the knife
has inscribed on the blade, "stainless, Geneva Forge."
And you'll agree that's a
stainless steel knife?
A I presume.
Q Well, let me ask you this: according to your
recollection, did you have knives of the type of "Old Hickory" knife and the "Geneva
Forge" knife in your house, the general type, the general appearance?
A The Old
Hickory knife looks more distinctive. That's why I really don't recollect that. I don't
believe that could be from the house. I think I would have remembered that.
Geneva Forge looks much more like a routine paring knife that we may have had, but I
don't recognize it.
Q Did you ever use a knife of this type as a pry bar to open
Q You're strong, and I suppose if anyone were to use a--an
instrument of this type as a lever or pry bar, it would be Colette rather than you?
Q This looks like a relatively new ice pick. Had you bought an ice pick
A No, I didn't.
Q Well, do you recall having lost an ice pick?
A No, I
didn't. I don't believe we had an ice pick. I've been asked that. We didn't have an ice
pick as far as I knew of.
Q You don't recall that there was an ice pick in the house?
A I don't think there was.
Q Did Colette have any problem taking ice trays out of the
A Not that I am aware of.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Miss Reporter, will you
please mark this hair brush as MacDonald Exhibit 13 of this date?
EXHIBIT 13, DATED 8-16-1974, MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
WOERHEIDE: I have another hair brush, and I ask that that be marked as MacDonald
Exhibit number 14 of this date.
(MacDONALD EXHIBIT 14, DATED 8-16-1974,
MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
Q (Mr. Woerheide) Dr. MacDonald, I show you
exhibit 13 and ask you if you can identify this as a hair brush that was used in your
household that was found next to Colette's body?
A No, I cannot.
Q Well, as you
recall, did she have a hair brush similar to that?
A It doesn't look familiar, no.
This is the famous hair brush with the dyed hair in it that is unidentified?
Q Sir, I
have no knowledge concerning dyed hair that is not identified.
I hope that I will be
informed of that before we're through with this if there is such a hair.
Tell me about
it. What do you know about it?
A Allegedly there was a hair brush found in the
master bedroom with dyed hair. Reddish--it was either black hair dyed red or red hair
dyed black that had not been identified.
Q I see.
A That's all I know about it.
Q All right, here's another hair brush, the handle is pink, it was found on the dresser in
the master bedroom.
Can you identify that?
A Not--I mean not a hundred percent
to be quite honest, but this looks like one the kids had or Colette used occasionally.
Actually, it looks more like one of the kids' brushes. I don't know.
Q Well, I'm
told there were a couple of her hair brushes which we do not have here, but these are
the hair brushes from the master bedroom. That one looks familiar to you. This one
you say you cannot recognize?
A This one doesn't look familiar.
Q All right, did
Colette ever strike you with a hair brush?
A Strike me?
A No, sir.
Q Did she ever strike you with anything?
A I believe she pushed me away one time,
in Chicago, when we were in medical school. We were having a little talk, and she got
mad and got up off the couch and pushed me out of the way and went in the kitchen.
Q Is that a--the only time that she's ever pushed you or shoved you or done any other
act of violence toward you?
A The only time I can remember.
EXAMINATION OF DR. MacDONALD CONTINUED BY MR. STROUD:
Q Okay, Doctor, I've got several questions I'd like to ask you, and I'll try to go
through them rather quickly so we can go ahead and get out of here for the weekend.
Your brother you say is living in New Hope?
A That's right.
Q With a girl?
A That's right.
Q Do you know where he's employed if he does work?
A He works
apparently for--it's like a--not a florist, but a nursery--you know--doing gardening-type
work in a nursery.
Q Is that at New Hope or some other location?
A I'm not sure.
Q Do you know the name of it?
A No, I don't.
Q Do you know the girl's name?
A Yes, Helen Charles.
Q Do you know where she works?
A Yes, she's a
laboratory technician in a hospital in some town around New Hope, Pennsylvania.
Q Is there any other information you can give us about where your brother might live,
the location in New Hope?
A No, I don't know the street address. It's a rural delivery
number, as a matter of fact. I don't know the street location.
Q Now, the several
names that you referred to of friends and associates that you had at Fort Bragg during
the time that you were there, have you had any contact with any of them since you have
been in California?
A I got a letter from Harrison, Lieutenant Ron Harrison.
A About a year and a half ago. It was--yeah, it was a year and a half ago,
because it was Christmas time, something like that.
A I don't believe any
other--maybe a letter from Captain Butner about three years ago.
Q You haven't
maintained contact with them continually? You still don't maintain a relationship with
A Not with the people--not with the Army people that I was associated with,
Q None of the people at Bragg do you now have an association with?
A No, I
saw the Thoesen's, that's Captain Richard Thoesen and Lieutenant--I've forgotten his
wife's first name.
They were our associates and friends, also, and I saw them about
two years ago.
Q Now, other than Harrison, Captain Frank Moore, Captain James
Williams, Thoesen, Butner, Probst, are there any others now that you can recall having
a close relationship with at Bragg?
A You mean at work now, or socially?
Q In any
A Well--you know--I work with people in the office every day. Sergeant Violetti,
Master Sergeant Violetti, I worked with him every day for a long period of time.
Q Well, let's limit it to socially then. Are there any others besides these you have
mentioned that were friends other than at work?
A No, not really. Other than--you
know--we kind of had a distant, sort of a commanding officer type social relationship
with Colonel Robert Kingston from the Third Special Forces group.
Q What was--was
he a superior? I mean, obviously he outranked you, but was he in the line of command
A He was commander--not at the same time Colonel Kane was. He was
the Colonel Kane of an earlier time. He was in control of the Third Special Forces
group, and I went from the Third to the Sixth, and that was Colonel Kane.
Q Was he
commander at the Third when you were in the Third?
A That's correct.
see. After you went to the Sixth, do you maintain your relationship with Colonel
A He was--he went to Viet Nam.
Q All right, okay, now, other than; you
were questioned about close associates that your wife had at Bragg?
Q And you mentioned the Kalins. How close was that relationship?
A Not really very close. They were neighbors--you know--borrow-a-cup-of-sugar type
thing, but not really a close relationship.
Q Did Mrs. Kalin work, or did she stay home
during the day?
A She stayed home.
Q Were there any others in the
neighborhood, any other close friends that you know your wife had while you were at
Bragg, women who lived in the neighborhood, or men?
Q Okay, and you
mentioned Carol Butner. She's the wife of the Captain?
A Captain Butner, right.
Q And classmates she went to school with. Are there any other people that you know
of who had a relationship with your wife or knew her fairly well other than just a brief
acquaintanceship at Bragg?
A I don't think so.
Q Remember one?
A I don't think
Q So she really didn't have any close friends at Bragg, is that what you're saying?
A Yeah, not really. Yeah, that's actually right.
She really didn't get into the
Army-wife role, you know, and go to the--you know--the teas and whatnot in the
morning, with the other Army wives very much.
Q I'm not clear on this; did you have
one or two trips to Texas, what you called TDY, I believe?
A I was in Texas in July of
1969 for what--doctors' basic--you know--the physicians and dentists and veterinarians.
Q Where was that?
A That was at Fort Sam Houston, which is in San Antonio. I
was there for five weeks, July and the first week in August, but I went back to Texas as
jump coverage on that weekend, whenever that was.
Q Was that also Fort Sam
Houston at San Antonio?
A Right, exactly.
Q Those were the only two times you
were in Texas in connection with your service career?
A That's right. That's right.
Q Or the only time? Not two times.
A No, I was down there when I was in high
Q Yes, but I'm talking about during your service career?
you'll have to bear with me. I've got most of these questions marked, so I'll have to flip
Now, how many interviews can you recall with Caverly, Agent Caverly
from the FBI?
I believe you said three?
A Yeah, I say that, sir. I have read the
interviews. I know I had three interviews.
If you had asked me that, I don't really
recollect who I was talking with the first day that he was one of the one, but apparently
Q Okay, do you recall the other two interviews?
A Yeah, in a vague
way. Guys came in and asked me questions in business suits, and--you know--I had so
many interviews, so I'll say, yes.
Q Now, you say on the first day you were asked
questions. You say now you can't identify who they were, but they were official-type
questions, as I recall?
Q Was your terminology.
was this, sir, in relationship to when you got your visit from Captain Williams and your
mother, and the Kassabs?
A Oh, this was before then.
Q How long before then?
A This seemed to be that right around the time I think right after I--right after the first
chest tube was put in. This would be relatively early in the morning.
Q After the
first--you say it was immediately after the first chest tube, or would you be within half an
A It seemed approximate, you know. It seemed reasonably approximate,
like it seemed like someone else started to come in like Williams or Colonel Kane or
someone, and the nurse said, wait a minute, there're some people here to see him, or
something like that.
Q Okay, now how long after that did you--did you first get a visit
from Harrison or Williams or the Kassabs, or--
Q I presume it would have
been either Harrison or Williams, one of those two?
A Or Captain Hiestand--you
know, the group surgeon, my immediate superior.
A Someone like that
was the first. The Kassabs and my mother were late in the afternoon.
Q On the
Q Okay, now, you visited with Williams and Harrison that morning?
A (No answer)
Q Did both Harrison and Williams come over that morning on the
A It seems to me--yeah, it seems to me that that occurred.
Q All right, now,
you have referred to some valuables, a couple of rings, T.V., stereo, china closet, can
you think of any other valuables that you had in the house?
A No, none that I can
Q You did have a camera?
A And camera equipment, right.
was that kept?
A I believe it was kept in the closet, in my closet. My clothing closet
in the bedroom.
Q In the bedroom?
Q Was that also the same closet
where the box with the guns in it--
Q Okay, now, the rifles you refer to,
why did you have them?
A Well, I thought it was a normal thing to do in America,
when I was growing up, to have a .22 and my brother had a shotgun, and--you
know--just over a period of probably ten to twelve years, I picked up those other
couple--you know--the Italian, the British, and the
Q Why did you have them
in your closet in a box?
A Why did I have them there?
Q Right, any particular
A So someone couldn't get to them, yeah, so the kids couldn't play with
Q But is there any particular reason you had them in the house?
A Oh, no, I
never used them, you know. I just didn't--you know--I just never thought about it. As a
matter of fact, I gave them away--you know--after my property was returned.
on the 17th or part of the 16th, you say that afternoon after you left that gym, you went
home. Then you and the girls went to feed the horse?
Q All right, okay,
did you feed the horse at any other time that day?
A I don't think so.
A You know, that's an interesting comment. I just thought of something, actually.
If I may--I may have--well, it's not important, but I may have fed the horse coming
home from--for the morning feeding, coming home from Hamlet.
I don't think I was
late for work that day, which would probably make me late for work. But it's just a
Q Now, the--do you have any independent
recollection of the pillows, Mr. Woerheide showed you the pictures. You say one of
them may be the one you have got now?
A Unh-hunh (yes).
Q Do you have any
independent recollection of them at this time to size, or shape or those particular pillows
other than what you saw in the photograph?
A Of the ones that I had in the house?
A No, I don't.
Q Okay, now, while we were going through the
demonstration here, and I was serving as the assailant with the club, the way you
described it, the blow came somewhat from the side?
A Unh-hunh (yes).
A Unh-hunh (yes).
Q From the assailant, is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q Now, was it a full blow? I mean did he reach all the way back as
far as he could on the side to hit you?
A Well, that's the impression I had.
A Quite frankly, that it was--that he was taking a swing at me. I don't know with what
Q But you say it was a pretty heavy impact?
Q Perhaps as hard as
he could do it, or as hard as you could do it in his position?
A I have no way of--I
mean I have no way of figuring that out.
Q All right, okay, now, you have described
that when you went in the master bedroom afterwards, that you noticed that Colette
was--her shoulder was up against the chair?
Q Is, her shoulder was flat
on the floor, but it was in contact with the chair, is that what you're saying?
A No, she
was leaning slightly against the chair.
Q How much?
A It seemed like just the--as
though she was turned a little, so the shoulder was up just a little bit.
know it's probably hard for you to remember in details, but from what you can
remember, at the point where here shoulder came in contact with the chair, at what
point above the floor was that, would you say in inches?
A Oh, I don't know. I would
probably say six or seven inches. She was rolled up against the chair just a little bit, it
Q Okay, why was it necessary to move her in order to give her mouth to
A Well, if you're going to end up doing chest massage, you have to have
them in a flat position.
Q But not for mouth to mouth?
A Not just for mouth to
mouth, no, but--you know--I didn't know that at the time.
Q You did not give closed
A I don't remember me doing that, no.
Q Now, did you have a
household step ladder?
A I don't think so.
Q Say a--like you find in some
households that you have got two or three rungs on it, two or three steps so you can get
to an upper cabinet?
A I don't remember one.
Q How about a stool, either a foot
rest type stool, or a stool that you would put someplace to step up on?
A Ah, we had
some kind of a stool. We had a black patent leather stool, I think. I think--I don't know,
in the dining room or living room area, there was some stool, I think. I'm not sure. We
had one at one time. I don't remember which apartment it was in.
Q But you're pretty
sure you didn't have a step ladder?
A I don't think we did.
Q Did you have any kind
of a ladder?
A Not that I know of.
Q All right, now, you described that knives were
kept in the kitchen, of course, which is usual for--in all of our homes, and it's--you
know--generally, there may be some knives somewhere else in a home--you
know--either for cutting or as an instrument of some kind.
Did you have--that you
are aware of--at this point from your recollection, were there any knives at any other
location in the house, say in the utility room or the bathroom or hallway closet or
anything like that?
A Not that I'm aware of.
Q Can you recall any incident during
the time you lived at Bragg that there was one?
Q That you would keep in
another part of the house?
Q Now, you were in the hospital for what? I can't
recall exactly. Something like seven or eight days, about a week?
A That sounds
Q Did you know any of the nurses who treated you, who attended to you
during the time you were in the hospital?
Q Now, I'm not trying to make
anything out of this as far as a relationship. I'm trying to determine if you knew any of
A No, I didn't.
Q At an Army hospital like Womack, are the attendants
generally nurses, or are there also medics who are male attendants?
A I think an
occasional--like medics or orderlies came in but usually it was a nurse.
Q Do you
recall any of the people who attended you other than the doctors during that time? You
know, who daily would come in and see your needs who were part of the staff there?
Q Okay, but there were nurses coming in and out all the time, I presume?
Q You did not actually work at Womack, is that correct?
A No, I only
worked at Womack one day in the emergency room, the whole time I was at Fort Bragg.
Q You were an administrative type--
A Well, no--
Q --to some extent?
it's not I was administrative. I was attached to the Special Forces--you know--and they
were not associated with essentially Fort Bragg. It was field-type medicine.
and can't--can you now recall--I mean you may not have known at the beginning of your
stay, but at the end of your stay, had you established a relationship to any extent with
any of the people that attended you that you can now recall? I'm just interested in the
names of any of the people who may have attended you at that time.
Q Now, Mr. Woerheide asked you about the magazines, whether or not you could
remember them being in two stacks on the coffee table?
A Unh-hunh (yes).
you remember that there were magazines on the coffee table?
A Yes, it seems to me
Q And do you remember specifically the Esquire magazine that you
referred to with Lee Marvin's picture on the front of it? Was it on the coffee table?
A Yes, only because it's been pointed out to me.
Q Can you specifically recall that it
was that night on the coffee table?
A You mean from pure recollection and not being
told and listening to testimony?
Q Right, right.
A I really don't see how. I'm just
really reconstructing in saying it must have been there, because I know it was there that
Q But you can recall without being told there were magazines on the coffee
A Right, right, because when I was sitting there reading, either in the rocker
chair or on the end of the couch, one of the two chairs, my feet were up and it seems
they were sitting up on the magazines.
Q Okay, were there any magazines on the
floor around the couch or coffee table or your chair?
A I don't remember.
A It's perfectly possible. If one of the kids--you know--was working up there, they'd
clear off the table. So, it's perfectly possible.
Q But you don't know?
Q Okay, you do remember one of the kids working at the coffee table?
A One of
them was doing something with a game that night. I honestly don't know if it's that
game and the glue that's already been referred to, but when I was--after dinner, I
believe it was Kristy was doing--you know--doing something on the table.
And I had
cleared--cleared off or at least either shifted the magazines or put them on the floor or
And then--you know--I was going to settle down with Kim, and then I
went and put Kristy to bed, and came back with Kimmy, and then she woke me up later
to watch Laugh-In.
Q So you have a specific recollection at this point that Kristy was
playing on the coffee table and it was that particular night as opposed to another night?
A I don't guarantee it was Kristy, but someone was playing on the table as I was
clearing the dining room table.
Q All right, okay, now,--
A As a matter of fact, it was
probably both of them. They were probably both--it was probably one of them on each
side of the table.
That's what happened. They were playing on that end of the
table, on each side of the table, and--doing something. And then when I came
out--that's exactly what happened.
I put Kristy in her bed, and Kim and I settled
Q Okay, now, do you wear your contacts anymore, Doctor, now?
A Not very
Q When was the last time you wore them?
A Oh, about a year ago.
Q During the time back in February of '70, when all this occurred, were you--I know you
say you had just gotten some contacts. Were you experimenting with them or wearing
them most of the time during the day?
A I was just experimenting, really. I was only
just starting to get into them again.
I had worn them in the past, and then had
gotten away from them because of jumping and stuff--you know--I was always afraid I
was going to lose my contacts, so I switched over to my glasses, and I always carried
an extra pair of glasses and--for field trips and stuff --you know--if you're out sloughing
through the bushes for a couple days, you can't clean your contacts, so I ended up
getting back to my glasses.
So at this point in time, I was really just--the visit to Dr.
Pierce, I believe it was to sort of reestablish--you know--the contact use. He was going
to refit me or something like that.
Q But, of course, you had a pair of contacts prior to
A Oh, yeah, right.
Q That you were wearing?
A I had contacts. I
hadn't been wearing them for a while.
Q But I'm talking about at Bragg.
Q What were you normally doing, wearing contacts during the day, and take them out
at night and use your glasses at night at home?
A No, that's what I was saying. I
wasn't really wearing them. I believe that's why I was seeing Dr. Pierce at this time.
He was--fitted me, make sure the old ones fit, and if they didn't fit, he was going to
fit me with new ones, and I was just going to start re-wearing them, like you wear them
for half an hour a day, and then an hour the next day--you know--and you gradually
build up, and I was just going to start that sequence again.
Q Why--why were you not
wearing the contacts you had at that time?
A You mean that night.
Q Right, or any
time prior to that, while you were at Bragg?
A I just explained it to you, because of the
situation I was in, jumping and going to the field and all that stuff.
Q Right, and--
A And you can't--you know--when you're out in a tent, and stuff, you don't have a good
way to clean your contacts.
Q I'm talking about when you were on base, working in
the office, ah--
A Oh, I had just gotten away from it. I simply--I wore them
sometimes, but it was less than fifty percent of the time, I'm sure. I was really away
from them when I was wearing glasses because it was easier.
Q All right, did you
wear them any that weekend, your contacts?
A I don't know. I honestly don't
Q You don't have any recollection of that?
A (Shakes head
Q Now, anytime that night, before or after your wife was at class, did she
raise her voice?
Q Ever yell or scream or raise it in such a way that others
might hear her outside or something of that nature?
Q Okay, now, you had a
shed out back, is that right?
Q I presume you had a--the normal tools that
people would have around the house, saw, that type of thing, or did you?
A I had
some things, I don't know specifically. I had some gardening tools and I guess some
tools, because I had built the book shelves.
Q Can you specifically recall that you had
specific tools like a saw and hammers?
A Yeah, I think I had--oh, I had routine stuff
like that. I had a couple of saws.
A And a hammer.
you know, some nails, a screw driver and stuff like that, nuts and bolts.
Q All right,
now, you referred to the incident in Chicago when you were in medical school, and I'm
not--don't give me that look. I'm not trying to blow anything up. I'm just asking a simple
Q You referred to the incident where your wife pushed you out
of the way. You were having some kind of an argument. How did you react to that
when she pushed you away? Can you recall your reaction?
A No, I mean I presume
that I was, ah, amazed. I don't know. I have no idea. I have no recollection.
you--so you have no recollection?
A Ah, you mean like what specifically was I feeling
when she did that?
Q Or do? Did you do anything? Did you push her back?
A No, I didn't push her back.
Q You can specifically recall you didn't push her back?
A I never pushed my wife back.
Q Oh, today--now, you say as I recall your
testimony that Kristen woke up crying that night?
Q This is while you were
in the living room by yourself after everybody had gone to bed?
can you recall what you were doing at the time she woke up crying? Were you
watching T.V., or were you reading your book, or were you washing the dishes?
A Ah, I don't think I was washing the dishes. I think that I was in the living room, and I
presume that I was still watching Johnny Carson and reading at the same time, because
I remember at the time--I remember like sort of hopping up--you know--and padding
down the hall to see what--you know--what was going on.
A So she
wouldn't--you know--wake up the other people.
Q So, you say you went from where
you were in the living room, did you go into her room or just go to the doorway in her
room? You say you padded down the hall.
Q Well, I gave her a bottle, so I had to
get into the room sometime. I don't know if I went down and said, what's up, Kris?, and
she said, I want a bottle, and I went back and got it, or--you know--but I ended up giving
her a bottle.
Q Okay. Where did you get the bottle that you gave her? Where did
you keep the bottle?
A In the refrigerator. There's usually one made. Either Colette
or I made it before she went to bed. It was usually chocolate milk.
Q Okay, so you
had gone--can you specifically recall going in the refrigerator and getting the bottle and
taking it to her?
Q Okay, this was at the time she woke up crying?
Q Okay, you had also given her a bottle earlier in the evening when she
went to bed, is that right?
A I don't know specifically. Usually she had one, yeah, it
was sort of like a pacifier. She didn't have anything in it, like except if she woke up
crying or something.
Q So, you'd give her a bottle as a pacifier when she went to bed
without anything in it?
A Well, usually--I don't want to give you a wrong impression,
but it wasn't--usually there was something in it. But it wasn't a big deal, usually, I'm
saying. As long as she had it, usually she went off to sleep as long as she had
something with her.
Q Okay, could you specifically recall now giving her a bottle
when she went to bed that evening?
Q You're saying that you probably did it
because you did it every other night?
A Right, exactly.
Q Did she wake up crying
A You mean that night or--
A No. No,
a couple of times a week.
Q It wasn't a nightly routine?
A No, she would get up
and get her own bottle a lot.
A She'd wake up and kind of pad around and
find her own bottle, and get back in her bed or climb in another bed.
Q Do you know
of any particular reason she woke up crying that night?
Q As opposed to any
Q Did you ask her?
A No, it didn't seem unusual at all. It just
seemed like something kids do sometimes.
Q Did you ask her if she had a bad
dream or something like that, what was wrong?
A Oh, I probably did. I probably said,
everything's okay, Kris. And she said she wanted a bottle, so I gave her a bottle.
Q But you have no specific recollection?
A No, really what I recollect is she was
crying and I went in and we sort of talked or something, and I got her a bottle.
you remember what you talked about?
Q Now, you say that your wife was
taking some nausea medicine?
Q And she was also taking some--I
believe you called it Benadryl?
Q Which was an antihistamine, but for the
effect of sleeping?
Q Now, you said something earlier in your testimony
about she took some medicine, and I'm trying to recall what you said.
repeat, which medicine did she take if she took any that night?
A The question was
what medicine did I specifically recall her taking. And I said the Bendectin,
B-e-n-d-e-c-t-i-n, because that's what she took every night.
Q That's for nausea?
A Right, I knew she was taking that at that time. She was about four or five months
pregnant, and she had been nauseated for about two months.
Q How do you know
she took it?
A Well, I don't know she took it. I mean, I didn't see her pop it in her
mouth, but she just did it all the time, and she never forgot because she hated to be
Q So, you didn't see her take it?
Q How bout the Benadryl?
A No, I wasn't aware of that until--I just--you know--that's something that she
occasionally took. Actually it wasn't very frequent that she took Benadryl.
Q So you
don't know from your personal knowledge that she took any that night?
A No, I just
found out from the autopsy report.
Q The autopsy report indicated she had some in
A She had some Benadryl.
Q The FM station you were listening to,
was it a Fayetteville station?
A Was it what?
Q A Fayetteville station?
A I don't
know. They don't have much in the way of stations down there. And so I was trying to
find one, and the one I got kept fading out. That's why I think it was that FM not a
record that I was playing.
Q Do you recall what town the FM station was in?
have no idea.
Q I mean sometimes late--
A I don't know. Sometimes I even get it
from Chicago. You know, I really don't remember.
Q Now, what book were you
reading that night?
A I don't know. It was a--I believe it was a mystery, and from
reviewing--you know--other testimony, I said it may have been a Mickey Spillane. that
may have been it. I mean I read a whole bunch of them. A series of things.
you now have a recollection of reading a book that night?
A I was reading something.
Q Was it a paperback or--
A Yeah, it was a paperback, and it was one of
hundreds of books that I read.
Q Did you have any other--any paperbacks in the
vicinity around the couch or the sofa, or on the desk in the living room? Where did you
keep the paperbacks?
A In the utility room in the back of the house.
Q Did you
have to go to the utility room that night to get the book when you started reading?
don't think so. I think I was in the middle of it and it was in the--it was in the living or
dining area somewhere,--
Q All right.
A --because I had been reading it.
you didn't just start it that night?
A I don't think so.
Q Did you finish it that night?
Q Okay, what did you do with it after you finished it?
A I don't remember,
probably put it on the coffee table.
Q Were you lying supine at the time?
A When I
laid it on the coffee table?
A I have no idea.
Q When you finished it?
A I have no idea.
Q Okay, so you--when you--
A I would doubt that I was lying
supine. I normally didn't read lying down flat. I normally read sitting up with my feet up
on the table.
Q Were you wearing your glasses that night while you were reading?
A Most likely.
Q Do you have any recollection of wearing them that night?
Q Would you have had to have worn them while you were reading?
didn't need your glasses to read?
A No, I still don't.
Q So you think you probably
put your book on the coffee table?
A Right, or the table which would be
approximately here at the end of the couch. (indicating)
Q But it would have been
somewhere in this area in the living room?
Q Now, when you carried
Kristen back to her room, what position was she in when you left that room?
just seemed to be, generally speaking--you know--sort of on her back.
Q Okay, well,
you say sort of on her back. Was she flat on her back or leaning one way or the other?
A Well, she could have been--she could have been rolled a little bit to one side, but I
--it seems to me that she was on her back.
Q Did you tuck her in that last
A I'm sure I pulled the blankets up, at least, but she slept hot like I did. She
was always kicking them off.
Q But you did--you feel like you pulled some of the
A Right, probably pulled the cover up, right.
Q Do you specifically recall
doing that, or are you just saying you probably did it?
A I just said I probably did it.
Q What is your specific recollection?
A Really, just bringing her back into the room
and putting her in bed.
Q Did you ever hear Kristen's voice that night after the people
you described came in? Did you hear Kristy at all?
Q Just Kimberley and
Q Now the female--or allegedly a female--now, we're
assuming, of course, it's a female according to your testimony, because you could see
long blonde hair and you could recognize a female voice?
Q In what
manner was she saying, "acid is groovy, kill the pigs"?
A Really, just in a
monotone. It didn't seem very loud.
Q In a monotone?
Q She didn't
raise her voice one way or the other?
A Didn't seem to be. I was contrasting--really,
when I say a monotone--because the shrillness of what seemed like very loud
screaming to me was in contrast.
A And I just sort of heard this
intermittently, you know.
Q Okay, at what speed was she speaking, expressing these
A Oh, "acid is groovy, kill the pigs."
Q In that manner?
Q At that speed?
A Well, I speak a little faster than most people.
Q Well, if
you will by your own use of your voice, just state it at this time--
Q --at the
speed that she stated if you can recall that?
A Acid is groovy. Without a long break,
and then, kill the pigs.
Q Okay, would she say one right after the other or would there
be a pause?
A I heard it a couple of times. Acid is groovy, kill the pigs. Acid is
groovy--you know--like that.
Q All right, now, when you were checking your wife and
your two girls, after you regained consciousness, according to your testimony, in the
hallway, you say you checked their pulses?
Q Did--now, I recall
somewhere in the past that you referred to three types of pulses?
that you used this method on all three of them?
A Yeah, but that's--that's really in
reconstruction. I remember checking pulses a lot--you know--a normal way to check a
pulse in an emergency is to check a carotid which is in the neck or a femoral which is in
the groin. And then if you don't feel one, you can try the--you know--the wrist.
remember specifically picking up Colette's wrist at one time, and it seems as though I
checked the other--you know--the kids also that way.
But what you're really
concerned with is the carotid or the femoral, because you can feel it a lot easier.
right, so with regard to all three of them, did you try both the carotid and the femoral?
A I would say, yes.
Q Do you recall that?
A Yes, but you gotta understand, Mr.
Stroud, that it's a whole jumble of thoughts and feelings and then you try to sort it out,
and reconstruct it and it seemed like that when I was
at Kimberley's bedside that I
definitely checked her--it would be her right femoral, her right wrist--
Q All right.
A --and probably her carotid.
A And Kristy--I don't know definitely if I ever
checked Kristy's femoral. I'm not sure of that, but it seems like I must have checked her
carotid. I must have checked her femoral because the--her wrist it would be very hard
to feel a pulse, even a normal pulse.
Q Why would you check for both a carotid and
femoral? Would there be one when there's not another?
A Usually not, but when you
don't feel one, the first thing you do is check another. Not in a young person. In an old
person you can lose one if not two.
Q So that's medical procedure to check as many
places as you can for a pulse if you don't feel one in the first place, is to go to another
A Well, given everything, which was--if I was a doctor, not in the situation,
walking in, finding someone, I would probably just check one and then start mouth to
A Which may well be just what happened. See, that's the
problem with reconstructing and making it sound like it's black and white.
A And then when you see air--you know--bubbling, then I may have checked another
pulse, and said, Jesus, what do I do now?
Q All right, now, when you say you went to
the back door, the utility door itself--the inner door itself was open, and the screen door
was open, is that right?
A It seemed to be open. I don't think I even had to push it to
look outside. That's why I say that. It just seems like the back door was open, and I
was standing there and I was looking around, and it was very quiet.
Q All right, did
you stick your head outside the door?
A Yeah, I think I did. I think I got that far.
Q How about the rest of your body?
A I don't think I was ever on the back stoop. I
think I just leaned out the back door.
Q How long would you be there at the back
door, would you say?
A Oh, seconds. Five or ten seconds.
Q Five or ten
Q Time enough to look out?
Q Did you hear
Q Or see anything?
Q Now, during the time that these
people were in the house there, according to your testimony, did any of them ever
say--did any of the men ever say anything?
A I never heard anything.
Q All right.
A I never heard anything.
Q Did they grunt or moan or do anything like that?
Q You heard no noise from any of them?
A They were not shrieking in
contrast to what Colonel Kriwanek said in the newspapers.
Q So as far as any--as far
as any other of the four of them, the only utterance you heard was what you described
coming from the girl, a monotone--
Q --from the girl?
A That's right.
Q But you heard no grunt or verbalizing or groan or anything from any of the three
A I don't believe so.
Q All right.
A The only--the only confusion could arise
if during the struggle that some of the--you know --those words were not being said by
the female, but I always have been under the assumption that was a feminine voice I
was listening to.
Q So you don't recall a male voice?
A No, I don't recall a male
Q Now, somewhere I have read that after--after you were released from the
hospital you borrowed a pistol from somebody?
A That's right.
Q Who did you
borrow it from?
A Ron Harrison.
Q Ron Harrison. What kind of pistol was it?
A Nine millimeter, I believe it was.
Q Nine millimeter?
Q Was it so
it would have had a magazine?
Q Okay, how long did you keep that gun
or do you still have it?
A No, after--after I was locked up in the BOQ, on April 6, a
couple of days later, I, through my lawyers I think, got it back to him.
I thought it
wasn't appropriate since they were searching my room occasionally when I left it for a
I thought it wasn't appropriate they find a gun that wasn't mine, so I gave it
back to Harrison.
Q You mean at the time they placed you in custody they didn't
search the room for a gun?
A I don't know, but it was there. It was under my pillow.
Q Did they ever ask you if you had a gun?
Q And even while you were
under house arrest?
A No, I presumed it was because they kept searching my room
when I went to meals.
Q So, you turned the gun over to your lawyer, didn't you?
A I don't know if I returned it to my lawyers, or if at a meal I met Harrison and gave it to
But I had it in my custody until like the tenth or eleventh of--you know--thinking
back, it was hilarious. Here I was being guarded, and they leave a loaded pistol under
Q All right, that's where you kept the pistol, under your pillow, loaded?
A Unh-hunh (yes).
Q Why did you have the pistol?
A For protection.
whom or what?
A From the people who were in the house that night, I presume,
because I couldn't figure out who it was or why they'd want to do it.
Q Okay. All right,
I have just got a couple more. So, if you'll bear with me.
The light that was on in
the kitchen, how many lights were there in the kitchen if you recall?
A Two or three,
two I know of. I think one was a ceiling light, and one was a little light next to the
Q Which light was on that night?
A I don't recall.
Q You don't recall
A No, either one could be left on--you know.
Q Do you have any idea
why these four people that you have described in your testimony would have come in
and attacked you?
A No, I don't.
Q Now, there--there was some statement at some
time that you made at the hospital, that there was a Brady, or somebody that--
Q Badger. Badger, that's right.
A I just remembered.
Q That you
had--that had tried to get out of the service. He was a drug abuser or drug user, and he
tried to get out of the service, and you talked to him?
A He was trying to get out of the
service. You know--I wasn't trying to get him out of the service.
Q No, but he was
trying to get out?
Q When did you last talk with him before this?
don't remember. It was reasonably close to this episode, a week or two.
Q All right,
how did you come to have contact with him?
A I don't recall how it initially
happened. But he--I ended up counseling him at my group surgeon's office.
don't know how you came to counsel him?
A I don't remember.
Q Was that a part
of your duties?
Q It was?
A Yeah, right. Oh, I thought you meant the
specific incident. I don't know--you know I ended up counseling him or talking with him
about his drug abuse problem.
Q All right, and he was trying to get out of the service,
using drugs as a reason?
A Well, he was using drugs. The question is, you know,
was he sort of an unsalvageable type individual? Was it for the good of the service to
get rid of him, or was he to be punished for his drug abuse, or was he going to be
rehabilitated, or whatever?
Q All right, did he get mad at you about something?
A Oh, I don't think so. Not really.
A But he--
Q Did you do something to
prevent him--or did you tell him you were going to do something to prevent him from
getting out of the service?
A I don't--I don't recall--you know--in the course of
counseling dopers, they're all alike after a while. I mean, they're all jerks, it seems to
Q Okay, now, you say surgical gloves--you brought surgical gloves home, as I
recall your testimony, were under the sink in the kitchen?
A Well, I know were they
were because of the reports, but I always--I had assumed they were either there or in
the--like in the hallway closet, but then since then, I've been told many times that they
were under the sink, there was a box of gloves.
Q Well, what recollection do you
have as to where they are other than either one--did you ever see the surgical
gloves? Did you ever have to get a pair out? You say you used them to wash dishes?
A Yeah, occasionally and usually they'd be under the sink in a box.
Q Did you
ever get any out of the hall closet?
A Sure. Out of the hall closet?
don't remember specifically if I got them out or the box was there, and I was
shifting--you know--I don't remember.
Q Well, as far as you know, you just had one
Q And it would have been either in the hallway closet or under the
Q Your last recollection was it was under the sink?
A Right, that's
Q And the gloves, were they in a sterile package of some kind?
A Right, each pair of gloves are wrapped individually.
Q And were there any loose
gloves around the house that you were aware of?
was the dishwashing gloves; probably of two kinds. Probably of the yellow--no, not
probably. There was a pair of yellow rubber gloves in the kitchen. And there was a
pair of surgical gloves.
Q In the kitchen?
A In the kitchen.
Q Where in the
A Probably on the sink.
Q Okay, where?
A Probably right behind the
faucet as a matter of fact.
Q Do you recall there being--but you do recall there being
a loose pair in the kitchen that night?
A Right, right, and there was--and this I say
because it was usually so. There was usually a--other pairs of gloves like in the utility
room which also really functioned as a laundry room.
And it was on top of the pile
of laundry or on top of either the washer or dryer, whichever one we had there. We had
the other one in the kitchen.
Q Why would there be a pair in the utility room? Do you
A I don't know. Colette used to use them--I guess to hang--when she was
doing things--washing windows and stuff. Oh, yeah, that's what it was. It was like for
washing--like for Windex and stuff, or Fantastik when she was cleaning.
Q Well, was
that stuff, Fantastik and the cleaning equipment, and all that, was that kept in the utility
Or was it kept under the sink, in the kitchen, or in the hall closet, or where
was it kept?
A I don't know. I would presume most of it was in the kitchen.
you can recall a loose pair of gloves back in the utility room, either on top of some
clothes or on top of the washer? Or dryer?
A No, I cannot recall them being there
that night, but that was not an infrequent occurrence. And when it was put to me later,
that's kind of like a reconstruction again.
I don't recall seeing them, but it's a
conceivable thing, and actually it's very possible, because there usually were an extra
pair lying around.
Q When you used surgical gloves to wash dishes with, could you
use them again?
A Sure. Now, that depends on which kind you get. Some you can
and some you can't.
Q Well, what about these kinds?
A Well, sir, them being there
on the sink. They could be reused.
Q Why can you use some again, and some you
A Some types of surgical gloves are very easy--they rip very easy just by
putting them on.
Q Oh, you're talking about whether or not they've been ripped. If
they're still in one piece and don't have any holes in them, you can use them again?
A No, that doesn't exactly--that's true, also, but what I really meant was that different
brand names rip easier than others.
Q I see. Okay, now, I recall you saying
something about a cat, but I--refresh my recollection.
Was the cat in the house that
A I don't know.
Q Did you feed the cat that night?
A I had nothing to do
with the cat.
Q Whose responsibility was the cat?
A The kids' and Colette.
Q And if the cat would--the cat would generally stay in at night or outside?
way. It was gone for days at a time sometimes.
Q How did y'all come to acquire the
A I don't remember. I think the cat just came there.
Just came over--I think
Kristy came home carrying the cat one day.
Q How long had you had the cat?
A Not too long. A couple of weeks or a month. Couple of months. I wasn't a cat
lover. I really had nothing to do with the cat.
Q Well, when the cat was in the house,
wouldn't the cat come around and rub against your leg and all that stuff?
A No. Yes,
it would. Sure it would, occasionally, sure.
Q But do you have any recollection of that
occurring that night?
Q Now, do you remember CID agent Connolly?
Q You do not have a recollection of him?
A Well, I've met him now. Now I
know what he looks like and how he thinks.
Q Did he testify at the Article 32,
A I don't believe Connolly testified.
Q Okay, do you recall talking to
Connolly in the hospital or anywhere about this?
Q Did the stool that you
were telling me about earlier that I think you might have had at that time, where was that
stool normally kept?
A I think there was a--a--if I'm remembering right, there was
another chair facing--well, we've already marked it as a matter of fact. No, we haven't.
I think there was another chair right here. I'm not sure, facing in.
Q Was it a
A A footstool at the end of the chair, black.
Q Black patent leather?
Q How about describing it? Was it on legs or was it just round and went
to the floor?
A No, it was on legs. It was on four legs, and it was at an angle,
because it followed the same angle--I think up--of the--of the chair, I believe.
was it square?
A I think it was square.
STROUD: Okay, I have no further questions.
MR. WOERHEIDE: I have just a
couple, Dr. MacDonald.
EXAMINATION CONTINUED BY MR. WOERHEIDE:
Q When you saw this disaster that had befallen your family and yourself, was it your
first thought to call Colonel Kane or to--
A (Shakes head negatively)
Q --or to place
a call to the operator?
A To call Colonel Kane?
A No, sir.
Q You did
know his phone number, didn't you?
A Colonel Kane?
Q He is
your--he was your commanding officer?
A Yes, but I wouldn't know his phone
Q During the course of the time from when you found yourself lying next to
Colette, did you at any time go fetch your glasses and put them on?
A Not that I
Q So, you were walking around without your glasses on?
everything you saw that evening from the time you first observed these people, you saw
with your normal vision, not corrected by any glasses?
Q One of the
grand jurors has given me a note and has two questions.
When you went to sleep
on the couch, why didn't you turn out the kitchen light?
A I was just--it was routine
procedure--you know--it doesn't bother me at all.
And--you know--in case, like
Kristy got up and padded around or something.
Q And when you gave Kristy her
bottle, the question is, why didn't you put her in her own bed at that time?
A I did.
Q Yeah, you gave her the bottle in her bed?
Q And as I recall having
given her the bottle in her bed, you either left her there and she went by herself--
A (Interposing) Oh, I see.
Q --to the master bedroom--
crawled in with Colette?
Q Or I think you have testified you may have
taken her there?
A That's right.
Q Because she wanted some company?
A That's right. That would be in reference to what we would have been discussing
when she woke up that Mr. Stroud was asking me before.
If we had that
conversation and she said, I don't want to sleep alone, I may have picked her up and
put her in bed, but my best recollection at this point, and what I really think happened, I
left her in her own bed with her bottle and she went in there by herself.
Q Now, Mr.
Stroud mentioned Connolly, and you said you knew him, but you didn't recall him
visiting you in the hospital, and you said he didn't testify at the Article 32. Now, how do
you know that?
A Oh, he was--you know--I was in the CID office several times trying
to find out what was going on, give them information and I met him on--I believe on
some of those visits, and there was one bizarre episode where they claimed that there
was a stolen .38 and fifty rounds of ammunition somewhere in my BOQ. And so every
room in the BOQ was searched, but my room was searched by Shaw and Ivory.
And I think Mr. Connolly was at the door, and they introduced me to him then, or
something like that.
Q Well, the only pending thing that I have is my request for the
notes, and the cushions; the cushions if you can identify them among your possessions.
Q And I take it--
A Sir, I honestly don't mind sending you that
cushion. I really think it's--I don't even know if it's really the same cushion. I doubt very
much if it will be the same cushion. I think--
Q Well, if it's possible that it is the same
cushion, will you make that available to us with the notes?
Q And I think
that that disposes of all our questions, and I wish if you would like to make some brief
statement to the grand jury, is there anything we forgot to ask you, that you feel we
should know, some specific item of information, you feel would be helpful, would you?
A Yes, sir; first, are these the originals that I gave you?
Q Yes, sir, I'm returning to
you the articles that you gave me yesterday that you requested be returned to you.
I must say for the record now, I'm giving back MacDonald Exhibits 1, 2, 3, of
August 15, '74.
A Thank you.
Q And MacDonald exhibit 5, 6 and 7--no, 4, 5, 6 and
7 of August 15, 1974. I have a--I'm sorry. I didn't cover all the numbers. Let's do it
right. They're not in sequence.
4, 5, 6, 7 and 8, of August 15, 1974. Is this one of
the exhibits you wanted us to return?
A No, you can have that.
Q And this is one of
A Right. This was one you could keep also if you like.
Q All right, so I'm
returning one through seven.
Q Of August 15, 1974.
A All right, thank
DR. MacDONALD: What I really have is not a statement. I just have some
notes that I've been jotting down from all the questioning.
If I could just go over
some points that seem to me are left unclear, if that's okay.
I just wanted to repeat
our attitude toward locks--you know--we've had a lot of specific questions about
locks. We never worried about it or even thought about it. If we thought about it, we
went and locked the door. But it wasn't a big deal.
MR. WOERHEIDE: All right.
DR. MacDONALD: I'd like to reiterate something that's very interesting to myself at this
Despite the fact that allegedly, and the CID agents are going to come here
and testify that they were investigating other people, I never saw a photo or a line-up of
anyone, despite their claims to me and their statements under oath that they had people
Now, it's really bizarre to me that they would do an investigation and
investigate thirty-five hundred people, and detain people, and never show me one single
photograph of anyone.
That's a very unusual way to solve a crime, it seems.
like to say that I don't--I don't want to undergo a psychiatric examination. Let me say
that very bluntly.
I will do it if the grand jury feels it's needed, but I really hope that
they'll put some thought to it, and that they'll see the other evidence and that they'll
decide if it's needed.
If it's needed then I'll do it. But I don't--I don't want to discuss
this again for another week with another team.
I'm sure it's going to occur to the
grand jury, if what I'm saying is true, how did this incredible sort of prosecution ever get
going? And I'd just like one sentence to sort of my theory, if I'm allowed that.
seems to me that from what Mr. Grebner has said under oath, and from what Mr. Shaw
and Ivory say, especially in these three depositions, that we've given you, that what they
did was, make very, very critical errors on the morning of the 17th, never check them,
have the interview with me, six weeks later, and from that point on they were set up sort
of for a prosecution.
It sounds absurd. Sounds absolutely ridiculous. But Mr.
Grebner has testified under oath that he walked in the house, that he made a decision,
that the living room was staged, and we asked him why, and he said because of the
All he had to do was ask an MP. All he had to do was line up the MPs
and say, has anyone seen anyone touch anything?
He never did it.
time the MPs were questioned was six months later.
Now, that's unbelievable
So--you know--to come to a rational theory as to why what I am saying
may be true or may not be true, how could the CID--why would the CID do this to
Captain MacDonald, essentially?
It wasn't any malevolent sort of thing with a nasty
colonel in the background to ride down Captain MacDonald.
It was initially stupid,
mistakes made. But then, they acted on those mistakes. They never checked them,
and they--then they acted on these mistakes.
One of them was the flower pot. I
mean if they think I staged a scene and dumped out a flower pot, and then stood the
flower pot up, that's unbelievable reasoning.
And second of all, apparently one of
their big things is that this table is top-heavy, and when you kick it over, it lands with the
legs up in the air.
And they testified that they conducted this great experiment
wherein every time they walked by it for weeks, they all kicked it, or they pushed it, or
they hit it in some way. And apparently every time, in excess of thirty, it would turn legs
up in the air.
So Colonel Rock walked into the room, and he testified under oath,
and he kicked it over once and it hit the rocking chair and it stayed on its side the way it
is in the photographs.
It seems to me that that is a rather unbelievable sequence
of--what I'm trying to say, sir, is that that crime scene that morning, was destroyed.
The--they take a wheel stretcher with me on it, struggling, and wheel it down here,
and out here. They then take photographs--or allegedly take photographs, because
they showed me two different photographs, some with the red cloth in it and some with
the red cloth out of it, and state to me that I staged the crime scene because I couldn't
have had that struggle because the red cloth was there and it had no blood on it, or
something like that.
Well, I wonder how they got the wheel stretcher down the
hallway, without someone moving that or putting it back there.
They also never
bothered to ask the doctor if they had moved anyone, because--because to--apparently
to them very important fibers wound up under the body of my wife. Fibers that they say
belonged to my pajama top. Well, apparently we're never going to know if they could've
belonged to my pajama bottoms, either.
But the fact is that they never asked the
doctor, and the doctor stated that he picked her up and looked at her back, and that the
cloth could have fallen off her onto the floor at that point.
In addition, I moved her.
Apparently, they failed to take that into consideration.
When--when on July 9,
my lawyers and Colonel Rock and all the guards and all the CID went to the house,
Colonel Rock would not allow the table tip--you know--to be repeated in --you know--in
the view of this maze of people.
He apparently went back with the CID at another
time and did it by himself.
But my lawyer leaned over and just looked at the chair,
and saw nicks in the chair and he pointed it out.
Apparently it never occurred to the
CID that maybe the chair was in the way, or even that there may have been a person on
the other side of the table, or a leg, or something like that.
I suggest that if--you
know--discrepancies or stories or whatever that you think is important is important, you
ought to listen to the best available evidence, and that to me would be a tape of that
stupid CID interview. And see what my state of mind was on April 6.
these CID agents questioned me. See what their state of mind was, incidentally.
you read it, it sounds to me like there's--well, I have a lot of--you know--emotional
remembrances of that day.
And it seems to me the grand jury should listen to the
best evidence. Let them listen to me talk to them April 6.
It was the first time I'd
ever talked about it. Sergeant Duffy, an MP, came to the Article 32 hearing and
testified he walked in the room and the drawers were open and clothing was hanging
out as though they had been ransacked. Apparently the photographs don't show
that. I've never seen the photographs of the bedrooms, but the point is, the CID sort of
neglects to mention all these things. When they say that there were no perpetrators in
the house; or as they like to say, alien beings.
That's the most absurd
reasoning--look, I'm here, obviously defending myself, so what weight does my word
But to say that they found no evidence, of other people in that house, when
they had the back door open and the front door open, both doors open, having people
walking in and out at random, with no guard at Kimmy's room and no guard at Kris's
room, and no guard at the master bedroom, preserving the crime scene, all you have to
do is read Lieutenant Paulk's testimony.
He had no idea how many men he had
under control. He didn't know their names. He didn't give them any orders, except,
don't touch anything.
That's all he said. He didn't station guards at the
door. There were unknown numbers of people including someone in dungarees
walking through that house who sat on the couch.
To reconstruct that initial hour,
apparently after they arrived is going to be impossible.
But I suggest to you, sir, that
that doesn't make me guilty of homicide.
Then, I think we already mentioned a note
that I wrote yesterday, that apparently somebody by the name of Marse, testified that
Specialist Mica dragged me five or six feet towards the doorway.
according to Mr. Shaw, brilliant testimony, there are some critical discrepancies and
blood stains or something in that area.
And it just seems unusual to me that the
CID would make a lot out of some blood stains which Mr. Shaw has told us were five to
seven in number with the largest being as big as a quarter in that house, when my
remembrances of that house was that the whole house was covered with blood.
And it seems to me when they picked me up and put me on a stretcher and take
me down the hall, and then bring another stretcher in the hall for the kids and whatnot,
before these critical spots are identified and taken care of by a chemist, who had
handled one prior case, which consisted of two blood drops on a door in an armed
robbery, you know, to then incriminate me on that basis is absolutely absurd.
it really insane, actually, at this point in my life.
You asked me about the statement
of fifty photographs; fifty fingerprints that I said in that information sheet were destroyed.
Well, I went back and looked. And I really can't make it out. The best I can make
out that Sergeant stated under oath, and you really can't make out what he says, but the
best that he said was that he had to re-photograph because of a loss of film.
Forty-four fingerprints and seven or ten palm prints. He said seven at one point
and then later he said ten.
So, that's over fifty. So for the first time in my life, I
But, the point is that that's how much film was destroyed and I can't
find out from reading the record how many of those that he had to re-photograph were
destroyed by the tape.
But apparently we have a significant number of fingerprints
including fingerprints on the door leading into the house to the utility room that were
Now, I don't know if that's obstruction of justice, but it sure seems like a
lot of incompetence in the Army. They're guilty of something for that.
And I know,
because I was in the Army.
Mr. Grebner, when he handed me back my wallet, he
later testified in almost exactly the same words. Stated that the man in the house in the
blue jeans was a medic.
We asked him how he knew he was a medic. He said,
well, he had to be a medic.
We asked him has he ever seen a medic in blue
jeans. He said, no, but that night the medic was in blue jeans.
And he assumed
that when the medic walked out through the crime scene, that that was the medic in
Seems to me he should have said, hey, you, what're you doing in
here? "How come you're out of uniform", if in fact it was a medic.
photographs--the same photographs that are alleged--you know--that are allegedly or
probably being used to incriminate me again here, I'm not--I'm just railing against the
system, sir--are the same photographs that I've seen several copies of, with different
things in them.
We see photographs with my wallet in it. Then my wallet was
stolen. We see photographs with things on the end of the couch; other photographs
with things not on the end of the couch.
I don't think the CID has any idea where
that red robe was.
I suggest, also, really just in response to this, because I think
this is--you know--this is reasonably good, but I really think a visit to the house would be
That's a small house--you know--I saw four people there, but I later saw ten
or twelve running around bumping into things, and I'd like to see what evidence that the
CID has that those ten or twelve people had--you know--were there.
Tevere testified he picked up the phone and made a phone call with his fingers on the
No evidence. No fingerprints. You know, I don't understand that.
Well, I'm on the stand. I'm not going to--
I suggest to you that I'm a little
confused about the line of questioning about the girl in the BOQ. This is half a year
later, after I've been through an unbelievable thing.
And for someone to visit me in
the BOQ, even if it occurred before my release from custody, which I don't think it did, is
I mean my life is--was shattered like--you know--you can't
conceive of what was going on in my mind or anything. And it doesn't make any sense.
Lieutenant Paulk also testified he would have been the one to set up the
roadblocks, or at least issued the orders. And he never issued an order for roadblocks.
So despite Colonel Kriwanek's statement to the press the next day that the base
was shut down, there never were roadblocks up.
At least we, who have made an
attempt, have never been able to find one single person to say there was a roadblock.
We've found a lot of people to say there weren't roadblocks. We have heard
comments like, well, there were roving roadblocks.
What is a roving roadblock?
But the CID and the--and the--Colonel Kriwanek, the head of the provost marshal,
apparently implicated me because a group of assailants that were in my house that
night were never found.
I suggest that they weren't found because of that initial
couple of hours, where unbelievably bad decisions were made.
And I also suggest
that later on when they got information about at least what sounds like good potential
leads--I'm not saying that the leads pan out or anything--we--you know--tried to run
down some of them--you know--back then, especially my military counsel, Jim Douthat,
was running down a lot of leads, spending days and days doing this.
I suggest, sir,
that they didn't even question most of those people who talked to them.
Grebner stated to us that one agent--now, you've got to think about this for a second
--one agent interviewed five hundred people in two days.
That is the most
outlandish statement that could ever be made. Five hundred people in two days. He
must have put them in an auditorium.
And then he then testified by the way that he
had to go see most of those people. Five hundred interviews in two days, and he
excluded them. They had alibis.
Apparently also part of the incriminating things
about--to make it look bad for me was that there was no grass or mud in the house.
And I'd just like to tell the grand jury that the MPs--it's really ludicrous, because the
MPs that testified--all we did was say to them, well, did you see any grass or mud later?
And there were fifteen or twenty other people in the house, and they said,
no. Except, for someone like Shaw, or a couple of other people said there were a
couple of pieces of grass.
And there were a couple of spots on the living room rug
where people were coming in the front door at this time.
But to say that--well, I
hope I'm getting my point across--to say that I committed homicide and murdered my
wife and kids on that is the most atrocious, insane reasoning. And for me to be here
today again is crazy.
This is insanity. The Army re-investigation was done a year
and a half ago. I haven't heard--I've heard better questioning, I've heard legitimate
questioning here, but I haven't heard anything that shouldn't have been asked, if not in
the first investigation, in the second investigation.
What did the second investigation
The Army spending a year and a half, two million dollars and ten
thousand pages--three thousand pages or whatever it comes to, making sure that we
can't prove that the CID made mistakes.
That's what they did.
that they talked to that have since talked to me, said that they asked the exactly same
questions as the first time around. Exactly.
Did Jay MacDonald use drugs? Well,
yeah, we've heard that. Did Jeff MacDonald use drugs? No, not to my
knowledge. Thank you.
They asked exactly the same questions. We started
cooperating with them. When Kearns and Colonel Pruett said, will you help us?, we're
really the good guys in the CID.
We said, well, okay, but let's do it in a reasonable
fashion. Let's have a court reporter so everyone has a record of what you guys are
You know, we put legitimate controls on them, and we realized when we
reviewed the transcript that they weren't going anywhere. They were just doing the
same damn thing again.
You know, if you add it all up, it sounds terrific. They've
had two Army investigations, under their words, the biggest investigation the Army has
ever had. And they can't find the group of four assailants. So, therefore, I'm guilty.
All I'd like to say, sir, is, you know, you haven't asked me. You know, I didn't
murder my wife and my kids.
And to the best of my knowledge, despite what the
perverse Mr. Ivory thinks, Colette didn't either.
And if you want me back in three
months, call me back.
MR. WOERHEIDE: All right, Dr. MacDonald, I appreciate
your appearing before the grand jury, and answering all of our questions. And we will--
DR. MacDONALD: Let--let me just say one last sentence,--I don't mean to keep
you here all weekend--let me just give you--the last thing I say--an example of the kind
of things that these men allegedly investigated and obviously didn't investigate.
first--you know all about, Helena Stoeckley. You can let the grand jury see the
testimony about Helena Stoeckley. You can let them read Mr. Posey's testimony. See
if that is at least a legitimate area for investigation.
I'm not saying Posey knows
something, and Helena Stoeckley is guilty. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that that
indicates the type and the scope and the way that investigation went on.
going to be very difficult for twenty-three normal people to say, well, Jesus, how can we
believe this guy when the Army and all those investigators and the FBI spent all this
money and time, and they didn't find anything.
For instance, Mrs. Daw--a classic
example--Mrs. Daw, and I don't know the truth or falsity of this. I honestly know nothing
about it except what I heard in the testimony room.
Apparently, Mrs. Daw is a
warrant officer's wife who lived on post at some time near this time, and this is really a
paraphrase--she had a daughter, Kimberley; she had a son, but apparently he was a
young, blonde son, named Kris.
Her husband is my height and weight and has
blonde hair. He was a helicopter pilot or something like that, and he was in Viet Nam,
or Thailand or Laos or something.
And she testified that she was held prisoner for
several days by a group of what she said were hippies, including a black male, a girl
with wigs including a blonde wig and several Caucasian males.
And as a matter of
fact, she called the CID to her apartment to kick these people out.
Well, after the
assault on myself and my family, she stated, which I have no way of ascertaining
anymore the veracity of, she stated she called the CID and told them this.
never came to interview her. They didn't think that was significant. She lived a couple
of blocks away. She was held prisoner by a group of people who were on drugs, who
told her they were going to come back and get her kids.
The CID on the phone
decided that was not an appropriate avenue to investigate this case, and this again is
something--just one of a lot of stories that are so bizarre of the handling of this case that
it is beyond belief.
So, I don't mean to harangue the grand jury. I honestly don't.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Well, we'll inquire into the matters, Dr. MacDonald, and I'm glad
you mentioned them specifically.
Now, I have one final question. Do you have any
criticism concerning the way this matter has been handled before this grand jury? If so
we would prefer to hear about it now rather than hear about it at a later date or read
about it in the press.
DR. MacDONALD: No, sir, I have no criticism.
WOERHEIDE: Thank you very much. May Dr. MacDonald be excused, Mr. Foreman?
FOREMAN: Mr. Woerheide, should I mention to Dr. MacDonald that the subpoena
that brought him here this week--
MR. WOERHEIDE: Yes.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Yeah, in force.
FOREMAN: --force for the
remainder of this hearing on this case.
MR. WOERHEIDE: Until we can make a final
conclusion with respect to this matter, I request that you extend the subpoena so that
we may recall him at a later date without issuing a further subpoena for him.
MacDONALD: Yes, sir, I understand that.
FOREMAN: I would like for the grand jury
to thank you very much for coming three thousand miles and appearing before us. And
we appreciate your cooperation.
Thank you very much.
(WHEREUPON, THE HEARING WAS
RECESSED UNTIL TUESDAY, AUGUST 20, 1974.)