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 1                                SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
                                  LAW DIVISION - CAMDEN COUNTY
 2                                DOCKET NO. L-051429-84

 .3

 4         FLORENCE HILL, EXECUTRIX OF        TRANSCRIPT OF
           THE ESTATE OF                       TESTIMONY OF
 5         RONALD WILLIAM HILL,             GERRIT W. SCHEPERS
           DECEASED AND FLORENCE HILL
 6    I    IN HER OWN RIGHT,

 7
      II                 PLAIN']'IFFS,

 8              -VS-

 9     . CAREY-CANADA,   INC.,   ET AL,

10    I'                 DEFENDANTS.

11

12                                         JUJJY 24, 1990
      I                                    CAMDEN, NEW JERSEY
13

14         ORDERED BY:   KARL MC CONNELL, ESQUIRE
                         CHERRY HILL, NEW JERSEY
15

16         B E FOR E:
                         HONORABLE SAMUEL L.   SUPNICK,   J.S.C.
17

18         A P PEA RAN C E S:

19                       KARL MC CONNELL, ESQUIRE
                         ATTORNEY FOR THE PLAINTIFPS
20
                         NATHAN SCHACHTMAN, ESQUIRE
21                       ATTORNEY FOR THE DEFENDANTS

22
                                    LINDA SWITZER, C.S.R.
23                                  CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER
                                    LICENSE NO. XI00660
24

25
                                                                  2


  1                                  I   N D E X

  2                                                o   c     RD       RC

  3         GERRIT W.   SCHEPERS
               BY MR.   MC CONNELL                 3
  4            BY MR.   SCHACHTMAN                     140

  5

  6

  7

  8                           E X H I     BIT S

  9         NUMBER             DESCRIPTION             10.    EVD.

10          0-27               APPLICATION             156

11     I:
       Ii
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       d

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                                                                                          3


 1                                    MORNING SESSION

 2                          MR.    MC CONNELL:     YOUR HONOR,         IF   IT PLEASE

 3           THE COURT,      I    WOULD LIKE TO CALL TO THE STAND DR.

 4           GERRIT SCHEPERS.

 5                          G ERR I T S C H E PER S,                    SWORN.

 6

 7           DIRECT EXAMINATION

 8           BY MR.   MC CONNELL:
         i
             Q.     GOOD MORNING,       DOCTOR.

10
     II      A.     GOOD MORNING,       SIR.
     \1'
     i
11   I
     !       Q.     DOCTOR,       COULD YOU PLEASE TE1JL THE LADIES AND

12           GENTLEMEN OF THE JURY YOUR            NAME,      SIR.

13           A.     THE NAME IS GERRIT SCHEPERS.                THE SURNAME          IS

14           SPELLED S-C-H-E-P-E-R-S.             FIRST NAME         IS SPELLED

15           G-E-R-R-I-T.

16           Q.     AND COULD YOU TELL THE LADIES AND GENTLEMEN OF'

17           THE JURY WHAT YOUR ADDRESS            IS,   DOCTOR?
     :,
      ~

     II
18   Ii
     , A.           YES.     JUS'r OUTSIDE OF WASHINGTON,             Il . C . ,   CALLED
     I

19   I       MC CLEAN.       STREET ADDRESS       IS   6527    SUNNYHILL COURT,

20           ZIP   22101.

21
     II      Q.     AND,    DOCTOR,    ARE YOU A MEDICAL DOC'eOR?

22           A.    YES,     SIR.

23           Q.     AND WHERE DID YOU RECEIVE YOUR MEDICAL

24           TRAINING,      DOCTOR?

25           A.    THE GREATER        PART OF    IT IN SOUTH AFRICA BETWEEN
     Ii
       I
                                      G.    Schepers -     Direct             4


     fill
 1          THE YEARS 1930 AND 1938 AND THEN POSTGRADUATE

 2          TRAINING THERE FROM              '39 THROUGH TO 1948.         ONE YEAR
     II
     l!
 3   II     IN NEW YORK UNIVERSITY 1949 TO                  '50 AND ANOTHER YEAR

 4    I     AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN IN ANN ARBOR 1951 TO

     Ii 1958.

 6          Q.   AND,     DOCTOR,          ARE YOU A CITIZEN OF THE UNITED

 7          STATES?

 8
     I      A.
                 YES,     SIR.

 9   Ii     Q.   AND HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN A CITIZEN OF THE

10          UNITED STATES?

11
     II          SIN C E 1 9 6 .1 •
     " A.
     i
12          Q.   AND WHEN DID YOU IMMIGRATE                  'ro THE UNITED
13          STATES,     DOCTOR?

14          A.   I    CAME PERMANENTLY IN 1954.

15          Q.   AND DO YOU LIVE WITH YOUR FAMILY IN VIRGINIA

16          NOW PERMANENTLY?

17          A.   YES,     SIR.

18          Q.   WHAT IS YOUR              AGE,   SIR?

19          A.   76 .

20          Q.   AND,     DOCTOR,          WHERE ARE YOU CURRENTLY EMPLOYED?

21          A.   I'M NOT EMPLOYED.                 I   DO WORK,   BUT   I WORKED FOR

22          THE VETERANS ADMINISTRATION IN WASHINGTON UNTIL JULY

23          OF LAST YEAR.         I'VE BEEN RETIRED FOR ONE YEAR.

24          Q.   AND YOU SAID YOU WORK FOR YOURSELF?

25          A.   YES.
                                      G.       Schepers       -    Direct              5


 1         Q.     WHERE     IS THAT,            SIR?

 2         A.     WELL,    I    HAVE RESEARCH LABORATORY AND RIGHT NOW

 3         I'M KEPT BUSY BY PEOPLE SENDING ME CASE MATERIALS

 4         AND PROBLEMS         FOR STUDIES.              I       SERVE AS   CONSULTANT.

 5         Q.     HOW MANY EMPLOYEES DO YOU HAVE AT YOUR

 6         LABORATORY?

 7         A.     AT THE MOMENT SEVEN.

 8         Q.     AND YOU MENTIONED THAT YOU RETIRED FROM THE

 9         VETERANS ADMINISTRATION.                      WHAT POSITION DID YOU

10         RETIRE FROM,         DOCTOR?

11         A.     I   WAS AT THE TIME OF RETIREMENT THE CHIEF OF

1 2 T H E CARD I OVA SC ULAR                   DIS EAS E S FOR THE WHOI,E VETERAN S

13         ADMINISTRATION AND ALSO THEIR SO-CALLED EXPERT ON

14         ENVIRONMENTAL DISEASES                     SUCH AS ASBESTOS DISEASES.

15         Q.     AND WHAT DID YOUR EXPERTISE                         IN ENVIRONMENTAL

16         DIS E AS ESE NT A I I. ?

17         A.     ANYTHING THAT VETERANS MIGHT HAVE BEEN EXPOSED

18         TO DURING MILITARY SERVICE THAT                           IS OF NATURAL AND

19         UNNATURAL CAUSATION SUCH AS                        EXPOSURE,      FOR    INSTANCE,

20     I   TO AGENT ORANGE.                I    WAS    IN CHARGE OF THAT FOR THE
      ,j
21    :i VETERANS       ADMINISTRATION.                 EXPOSURE TO ASBESTOS                SUCH
      il
22   I     AS   YOU MIGHT GET FROM MIL[TARY WARSHIPS,                              TANKS,

23         AIRPLANES.          EXPOSURE TO CHEMICALS,                   EXPOSURE TO

24         X-RAYS,     RADIATION,              ATOM BOMBS AND SO ON.
     I
     II    Q.     AND DID YOU WORK FOR THEM AND DO ANY CONSULTING

     I
     j                                     G.    Schepers -           Direc~                          6
     II
     II
     iI
 1          TO THEM IN THE AREA OF TOXICOLOGY?
     II
 2          A.         YES,    THAT'S ALL TOXICOLOGY.
     II
     ,I
 3   Ii
     II
            Q.         AND YOU SAID THAT YOU WERE THE CHIEF OF THE
     Ii
 4   'I CARDIOVASCULAR DISEASES FOR THE VETERANS
 5   I!     ADMINISTRATION?
     Ii!;
 6          A.         YES.
     I'
     !

 7          Q.         IN WHAT GEOGRAPHICAL AREA WERE YOU IN CHARGE?

 8          A.         I   HAD RESPONSIBILITY FOR ALL THE VETERANS

 9          HOSPITALS ALL OVER THE UNITED STATES,                                      173 HOSPITALS

10          AND 238 CHILDREN IN THIS CASE;                                 THERE WAS A

11          CARDIOVASCULAR DEPARTMENT IN EACH,                                    THE DOCTORS AND

12          TECHNICIANS EMPLOYED TN THOSE LABORATORY FACILITIES.

13          I    WAS       IN CHARGE OF ALL THE INTENSIVE CARE UNITS,

14          MEDICAL INTENSIVE CARE UNITS.                                  THER1!; ARE ALSO

15          SURGICAlJ.           I   WAS NOT INVOLVED WITH SURGICAL.

16          Q.         HOW MANY OF THOSE WERE THERE,                              DOCfOR?

17          A.         HOW MANY OF THE --

18          Q.         INTENSIVE CARE UNITS?

19          A.         APPROXIMATELY 500 OF THOSE.

20          Q.         DOCTOR,       COULD YOU EXPLAIN TO THE LADIES AND

21          GENTLEMEN OF THE JURY WHA'T THE SPECIFICS ARE OF YOUR

22          EDUCATIONAL TRAINING AND DEGREES.

23          A.         YES,    SIR.        THE TRAINING WAS UNDER THE ENGLISH

24          SYSTEM.           SOUTH AFRICA WAS              PART OF THE BRITISH                           EMPIRE

25          THE N .        S I X YEA R S    0   F T R A I N I NG   'I' 0    0   BT A I N A   0   E GR E E
     II                         G.    Schepers -   Direc~            7



 1           CALLED BACHELOR OF MEDICINE AND BACHELOR OF SURGERY

 2           WHICH IS THE GRADUATING OR QUALIFYING DEGREE TN

 3           ENGLISH SYSTEM AND THEN I       PROCEEDED FROM THERE TO DO

 4           POSTGRADUATE TRAINING IN PATHOLOGY AND INTERNAL

 5           MEDICINE.

 6           Q.   AND DID YOU            I'M SORRY.    I    INTERRUPTED YOU.

 7           A.   AND I    OBTAINED A DOCTOR OF SCIENCE DEGREE           IN

 8           1945 THAT EQUATED TO COMPLETING MY PATHOLOGY

 9           TRAINING AND I    OBTAINED POSTGRADUATE DOCTOR OF

10   .       MEDICINE DEGREE IN 1948 AND THAT WAS THE REQUIREMENT

11   I
     Ii
             FOR CERTIFICATION IS SPECIALIST IN INTERNAL

12           MEDICINE.     THEN I    CAME TO THIS COUNTRY AND STUDIED
     I:
13           INDUSTRIAL MEDICINE FOR A YEAR.
      I
14                WHERE DID YOU STUDY INDUSTRIAL MEDICINE,
     II      Q.
15   II      DOCTOR?

16   !I  \
             A.   AT NEW YORK UNIVERSITY IN NEW YORK CITY.

17           Q.   AND HOW WAS       IT YOU CAME TO STUDY THERE?

18           A.   I    WON A SCHOLARSHIP CALLED COMMONWEALTH FUND

19           FELLOWSHIP WHICH IS A FELLOWSHIP GRANTED FROM NEW

20           YORK CITY TO PEOPLE OF THE THEN BRITISH EMPIRE AND I
      I
     'I
21           WAS THE RECIPIENT OF THAT FELLOWSHIP FOR THAT YEAR.

22           Q.   AND SO YOU WERE GIVEN THE CHOICE OF WHERE TO

23           STUDY IN THE UNITED STATES?

24           A.   YES.

25           Q.   AND WHY DID YOU CHOOSE NEW YORK UNrVERSITY AT
                                 G.   Schepers -    Direct                 8


 1    I   THAT 'rIME?
     II
 2    I   A.      BECAUSE IT HAD THE FIRST INSTITUTE OF
      I
      I
 3    I   INDUSTRIAL MEDICINE          IN THE HISTORY OF THE UNITED
      I
 4        STATES AND      IT HAD AS     ITS    DIRECTOR FAMOUS MAN CALLED

 5    I   DR.    ANTHONY LANZA WHO HAD WRITTEN THE FIRST BOOK ON
      I
 6   II   ASBESTOSIS      IN 1938 AND WAS WELL KNOWN TO ME THROUGH

 7   II   HIS WRITINGS      AS   AN EXPERT IN THIS AREA.
     Ii
      I
 8    I Q.
      I
                  AND COULD YOU EXPLAIN TO THE COURT AND LADIES
      I
 9        AND GENTLEMEN OF THE JURY EXACTLY WHAT YOUR STUDYING
      I
10        UNDER THE AUSPICES OF DR.             LANZA ENTAILED AND WHERE
      I
      !
11        YOUR    STUDY OCCURRED?

12        A.      I   FOCUSED ON THOSE THINGS THAT           I   DID NOT

13        ALREADY KNOW;      AND ONE OF THE PRIMARY INTERESTS WAS

14        WHETHER AN ASBESTOS TYPE THAT IS MINED AND PRODUCED

15        IN CANADA THAT IS CALLED CHRYSOTILE CAUSES CANCER.

16        THE REASON WHY I        HAD TO DO THAT IS      BECAUSE THE SOUTH

17        AFRICAN GOVERNMENT HAD TO MAKE REGULATIONS AND                       I   WAS

18        WORKING FOR THE GOVERNMENT THEN.              TO DECIDE WHETHER

19        IF CANCER WAS      FOUND    IN A PERSON WHO HAD BEEN EXPOSED

20        TO ASBESTOS,     WHETHER THAT SHOULD         INCLUDE CHRYSOTILE.

21        WE HAD EXTENSIVE EXPERIENCE WITH TWO OTHER TYPES OF

22        ASBESTOS,     CROCIDOLITE AND AMOSITE,         BUT THE

23        CHRYSOTILE MINES WERE NEW.             THEY WERE STARTED AFTER

24        WORLD WAR     II AND SO THE QUESTION THAT              I   HAD TO SOLVE

25        WAS    SHOULD THEY ALSO BE          INCLUDED AS CANCER-CAUSING
                                  G.   ~chepers         -    Direct              9


 1         FOR SOUTH AFRICA.

 2              THERE HAD BEEN VERY FEW PUBLICATIONS ABOUT

 3         CHRYSOTILE,       SO MY JOB     IS TO FIND OUT FROM

 4         CONVERSATIONS        AND OBSERVING THINGS HERE WHAT CLUES                            I

 5         COULD FIND.

 6         Q.   SO YOU WERE REQUESTED TO DO THAT WHILE YOU WERE
      I
 7         STUDYING HERE?
      i
 8    I
      I
           A.   YES,     SIR.
      I
           Q.   CAN YOU TELL ME DURING THE TIME YOU WERE                             IN
      I
      I
10    I    SOUTH AFRICA,        DID YOU PUBLISH ARTICLES REGARDING
      Ii
11    Ii
      I
           ASBESTOS?

12         A.   NO.      WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO PUBLISH ANYTHING.

13         THE GOVERNMENT HAD A DECREE FORBIDDING PUBLICATION

14         ON ANYTHING RELATING TO ASBESTOS.

1.5        Q.   IS THAT ONE OF THE REASONS                     WHY YOU LEFT SOUTH

16         AFRICA?

17         A.   EVENTUALI,Y,       YES.

18              DOCTOR,       CAN YOU TELL US               YOU MENTIONED THAT YOU

19         WERE HERE AND        STUDYING UNDER DR.              LANZA,   WHERE

20         PHYSICALLY DID YOU GO DURING YOUR                     STUDIES UNDER            DR.

21         LANZA?

22         A.   I    TRA VE Ll, ED AI,) .. OVER       THE UN I TED STATE S .         PART

23         OF MY FELLOWSHIP        PROVIDED ME WITH THE FUNDS TO

24         TRAVEL AS     I   WISHED.      BUT     I    FOCUSED ON CERTAIN PLACES

25         WHERE KNOWLEDGE WAS TO BE OBTAINED.                        ONE OF 'rHESE
     .i
     II                                 G.   Schepers    -   Direc~                10
     il
     II
     ij
     I,
 1   If
     I'
             WAS   LABORATORY IN UPSTATE NEW YORK CALLED THE

 2
     'I      SARANAC LABORATORY WHICH                 HAD THEN AN INTERNATIONAL
     II
     !I
     t!
 3   I:      REPUTATION AS A CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF DUST
     II
     I:
 4   II      DISEASES.          AND MAN Y PUB 1.1 CAT ION S HAV E COM E FRO M

 5
     II      THERE AND MUCH OF THE WORK AT THE LABORATORY HAD
     \1
 6           BEEN ON CHRYSOTILE,             SO   I   SPENT THREE MONTHS THERE
     II
     "


 7   Ii      REVIEWING THE ANIMAL EXPERIMENTS AND THE HUMAN
     ii
     Ii

 8           STU DIE S T HA'I' HAD BEE N FOR M E D BY 'I' H EST A F' F      0 F'   THE
     'I
 9       I
         I
             LABORATORY.

10   II              I    ALSO WENT UP TO CANADA AND STUDIED WITH THE

11           DOCTORS AND ENGINEERS OF THE ASBESTOS M1NING AND

12           MILLING OPERATIONS UP THERE TO FIND OUT WHAT THEY

13           KNEW,       WHAT THE Y CO 11 L D 'I' ELI. ME.

14                   I    WENT TO ONE ASBESTOS FACTORY IN WAUKEGAN,

15           ILLINOIS TO SEE HOW FACTORIES ARE RUN,                      HOW THE

16           DOCTORS AND THE MANAGEMENT ADDRESSED THE ISSUE OF

17           DISEASE MANAGEMENT IN THOSE FACTORIES.

18                   THEN I         TOURED AROUND ALL VARIETIES OF

19           INDUSTRIES TO DETERMINE THINGS OTHER THAN ASBESTOS

20           AS WELL,        PROBLEM AREAS.

21           Q.      AND YOU SAID THAT NEXT YEAR,                I    BELIEVE IT WAS,

22           OR            I'M SORRY.        YOU SAID AFTER THAT YEAR WHAT

23           DID YOU DO?

24           A.      WELL,      I    RETURNED TO MY PREVIOUS JOB.             I    HAD

25           BEEN SINCE 1944 A MEMBER OF THE MEDICAL
       'I
       II                          G.    Schepers      -   Oirec~              11
       'I
  1         PNEUMOCONIOSIS BUREAU OF THE SOUTH AFRICAN

  2         GOVERNMENT.

  3         Q.     DOCTOR,      IF I    CAN JUST STOP YOU RIGHT THERE FOR

  4         A MINUTE.       I   THINK THE LADIES AND GENTLEMEN OF THE

  5         JURY HEARD THAT WORD YESTERDAY,                  BUT I   WANT TO

  6         EXPLAIN IT TO THEM.

  7                COULD YOU TELL THE LADIES AND GENTLEMEN OF THE

  8         JURY WHAT PNEUMOCONIOSIS MEANS,                  DOCTOR?

  9         A.     YES.     IT'S A SORT OF A COMBINED WORD,               TWO GREEK

10          NAMES.     PNEUMO,     THE LUNG,       AND CONIOS MEANING DUST

11          PARTICLE.       YOU PUT THE TWO TOGETHER AND YOU GET

12          PNEUMOCONIOSIS.            IT SHOULD BE PNEUMONOCONIOSIS,               BUT

13          IT'S   BEEN COMPACTED.          THE WORD IS USED BY,          IN

14          MEDICINE,      TO GROUP TOGETHER ALL THE DISEASES THAT

15          AIL THE -- ALL THE DIFFERENT TYPES OF HARMFUL DUST

16          CAN CAUSE AND THERE ARE A NUMBER OF THOSE.

17                 AND,    DOCTOR,      PERHAPS    I   SHOULD BACK UP A MINUTE.
       'I   Q.
18          WHEN WAS      IT YOU FIRST BECAME LICENSED TO PRACTICE

19          MEDICINE?

20          A.     1936.

:),1        Q.     AND THAT WAS WHERE,            SIR?

22          A.     SOUTH AFRICA.

23          Q.     AND ARE YOU PRESENTLY LICENSED TO PRACTICE

24          MEDICINE?

            A.     YES.
                                     G.    Schepers            -    Direc~                 12
     I
 1    1    Q.     AND WHERE AND SINCE WHAT YEAR?
       I   A.     MY CURRENT LICENSE                 IS       FROM DELAWARE.
 2
     Ii"
     I:
 3         Q.     AND WHEN WAS            I~   YOU WERE             FIRST LICENSED HERE              IN
     II
 4         THE UNITED STATES TO                PRACTICE MEDICINE?

 5         A.     I    BELIEVE MY LICENSE WAS OBTAINED                         IN 1962,         END

 6    I OF'1962.
     ,I
 7   ii
     II    Q.     IF    I   COULD,      I'LL GET BACK TO WHERE                  I    WAS

 8   'I    CHRONOLOGICALLY.
      !
 9
      I
      I           YOU MENTIONED THAT YOU THEN WENT BACK TO SOUTH
      i
      I


10         AFRICA WHERE YOU WORKED ON THE MEDICAL

11         PNEUMOCONIOSIS          BOARD.          COULD YOU EXPLAIN TO THE

12         LADIES      AND GENTLEMEN OF THE JURY AND THE COURT WHAT

13         YOUR   DUTIES      INVOLVED THERE AND WHAT YOUR                          EXPERIENCES

14         WERE THERE?

15         A.     WITH THE        PNEUMOCONIOSIS                   BUREAU WAS A MEDICAL

16         INSTITUTION THAT HAD                BEEN ESTABLISHED               IN 1917       FOR

17         THE DIAGNOSIS AND ADJUDICATION OF DISABILITY AND

18         IMPAIRMENT CAUSED BY THE DIFFERENT KINDS OF

19         PNEUMOCONIOSIS          FROM THE          INVOLVEMENT OF HUNDREDS OF

20         THOUSANDS OF SOUTH AFRICANS WHO WORKED                              IN   DIFFEREN~


21         DUST-PRODUCING          INDUSTRIES.                 THE GOVERNMENT HAD MADE

22         A LAW SAYING THAT ALL THOSE COME UNDER ONE MEDICAL

23         BUREAU AND THE DOCTORS OF THE MEDICAL BUREAU HAD TO

24         STUDY THESE        PEOPLE AND MAKE DECISIONS AS TO WHO                               IS

25         ILL. AND HOW       S E RIO lJ S I. Y I L. I.   ~   HEY ARE.       IF THEY DIED,
                                G.   Schep~rs         -       Direct             13



 1        WHAT CAUSED THEIR DEATH.

 2              AND SO ON A DAILY BASIS                   I    EXAMINED ABOUT

 3        BETWEEN 20 AND 30 MEN OR WOMEN PHYSICALLY LIKE A

 4        DOCTOR DOES,      LOOKED AT ABOUT 300 X-RAYS.                       WE HAD A

 5        LAW ALSO REQUIRING THAT EVERYBODY WHO HAD WORKED

 6        WITH DUSTY TRADES HAD TO HAVE AN AUTOPSY.                            SO THE

 7        LUNGS AND HEARTS OF THOSE PEOPLE WERE REFERRED TO US

 8        FOR EXAMINATION AND ALSO THE AUTOPSY REPORT.                            AND WE

 9        MADE DECISIONS AS TO WHETHER THAT PERSON HAD DIED OF

10        PNEUMOCONIOSIS AND WHAT THE ROLE                          IT PLAYED IN THE

11        DEATH.

12   I          SINCE I    HAD HAD TRAINING IN MATHEMATICS FOR MY
     I'
13    I   DOCTOR OF SCIENCE DEGREE,               I   WAS GIVEN THE JOB OF

14    I   BEING EPIDEMIOLOGIST FOR THE BUREAU.                          THERE WAS NO
      i
15   !I   S UC H T E R MAS E P IDE MI   0   LOG 1ST THE N .          'r HAT SAL ATE R
                                                                          I

     :1
     !!
16   Ii   TERM THAT CAME ALONG IN RECENT YEARS.
     II
     I,

17
     .'         BUT I    HAD TO DO ALL THE STATISTICS FOR THE
      I

18   :1 BUREAU ON THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN DISEASE

19    I PHENOMENON AND NUMBERS OF PEOPLE EXPOSED TO
      I
20    I   DIFFERENT TYPES OF THINGS.                  LIKE,         FOR INSTANCE,
      !
21        FINDING OUT WHETHER ELECTRICIANS GET MORE OF ONE

22        KIND OF   DISEAS~    THAN ANOTHER KIND OF DISEASE.

23        WHETH,ER ONE KIND OF CANCER IS MORE COMMON IN SUCH

24        AND SUCH A GROUP THAN ANOTHER.                        I   DID AJ.IJ THArr FOR

25        THE GOVERNMENT.
                                 G.    Schepers -      Direct            14


 1    ,   Q.    AND,    DOCTOR,       DURING YOUR WORK WITH THE MEDICAL

 2        PNEUMOCONIOSIS BOARI),            DID YOU HAVE ANY INVOLVEMENT

 3        WITH ASBESTOS DISEASES?

 4        A.    OH,    YES.     THERE HAD BEEN TWO TYPES OF ASBESTOS

 5        THAT WAS MINED,        MILLED AND PRODUCED            IN SOUTH AFRICA

     I           EARLY                 I   THINK CROCIDOLITE S'l'ARTED IN
 6
     I SINCE THE
     Ii
 7   Ii THE 1910        AREA AND AMOSITE STARTED IN 'rHE 1920S ERA.
      I
 8        IT TAKES ABOUT 20 YEARS ON AN AVERAGE FOR AN

 9        ASBESTOS WORKER TO BECOME ILL TO THE EX'l' ENT THAT HE

10        HAS   SYMPTOMS AND THINGS           SHOW ON HIS X-RAY.

11   Ii         SO WE STARTED GETTING CASES               IN THE    '40S AND
     I:
12   Ii   '50S AND THEY INCREASED WITH TIME.

13        Q.    DURING YOUR TIME WORKING WITH THE MEDICAL
     I
14        PNEUMOCONIOSIS BOARD,             DID YOU HAVE ANY INVOLVEMENT

15        WITH CHRYSOTILE ASBESTOS OR CHRYSOTILE MINES?

16        A.    ONLY ONE INSPECTION OF THE MINES THAT HAD BEEN

17        OPERATIVE SINCE WORLD WAR             II.     THEY WERE OPENED UP

18        IN WORLD WAR        II AND I      EXAMINED THE EMPLOYEES.           I

19        WENT OUT TO THE MINES             AND EXAMINED THE EMPLOYEES

20        THERE.

21        Q.    WHERE WAS THIS,            DOCTOR,    THIS MINE?

22        A.    THIS WAS              THE MINES WERE       IN THE NEIGHBORING

23        COUNTRY CALLED SWAZILAND.              THE MILLS WERE ACROSS THE

24        BORDER IN SOUTH AFRICA             IN A PLACE CALLED BARBERTON.

25        THE ORE WAS     BROUGHT BY CABLE CAR OVER MOUNTAINTOPS
                                   G.    Schepers   -   Direct


 1           AND BROUGH 'I' I N'l'O SOUTH AFR I CA.       J   HAD TO WORK AT

 2           BOTH PLACES.       THAT WAS MY ONLY THEN INVOLVEMENT WITH

 3           CHRYSOTILE.

 4           Q.    DID YOU OBSERVE ANY DISEASES AT THAT TIME?

 5           A.    THE ONLY ONE THAT I           REMEMBER IS THAT THE

 6           MANAGER OF THE MINE WHO WAS THE LONGEST                          PERSON

 7           WITH LONGEST EXPOSURE THAT HAD A MESOTHELIOMA.

 8           Q.    AND,     DOCTOR,     OTHER THAN THE CHRYSOTILE MINE YOU
     I       JUS T DES C RIB ED,   DID YOU PER SON ALL Y V I S I         0 THE R MIN E S
 9   I                                                             'I'

10
     I
     i,      IN SOUTH AFRICA?
     I!
11                 YES.      THE AMOSITE-PRODUCING FACILITY AT A PLACE
     I:      A.

12       I   CALLED PENGE AND THE MIDDLE OF THAT MINE WAS CALLED

13           EGNEB.     PENGE-EGNEB MINE AND MILL.               IT WAS A LARGE

14           OPERATION AND I       EXAMINED VERY MANY EMPLOYEES.                 AND

15           THEN I    DISCOVERED THAT THE WHOLE VILLAGE WHERE THE
     I
16   il
     :,
             MINE WAS WAS CONTAMINATED WITH CARELESS RELEASE OF

17   ~ I DUST INTO THE AIR.               I   EXAMINED MANY OF THE VILLAGERS
     i1

18   I
         I TOO AND MANY OF THE            CHILDREN.     AND AS A RESULT OF MY
     I




19           STUDIES    I   RECOMMENDED TO THE GOVERNMENT THAT THIS

20       I OPERATION        BE SHUT DOWN AND THE GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS
         I
21           CAME AND SHUT      IT DOWN.        SO THE MINE WAS CLOSED.             THE

22           MILL WAS CLOSED FOR ABOUT TEN YEARS.

23           Q.    AND DURING YOUR TIME WORKING ON THE MEDICAL

24           PNEUMOCONIOSIS BOARD,            DID YOU HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO

25           EXAMINE OTHER MILLS AND FACTORIES WHERE ASBESTOS WAS
     II
      I

                                    G.    schepers   -   Direct            16



 1         BEING USED?
     [I
 2   Ii    A.     YES.    THERE WERE SPORADIC CASES.              I'r WAS NOT
     f~


 3         YET A BIG ISSUE THEN,             BUT SLOWLY CASES STARTED

 4         COMING TO THE BUREAU.
     II
     d
 5   Iid   Q.     DOCTOR,      DURING THAT TIME PERIOD DID YOU DO ANY
     il
 6   II RESEARCH REGARDING TISSUE SAMPLES?
     d
     I!
     I'
 7   II
     I'
           A.     YES.    AS    I   TOLD YOU,    WE HAVE THESE LUNGS THAT

 8   II    CAME TO US,      ABOUT THREE A DAY ON AN AVERAGE,               AND I

 9         HAD A LABORATORY ACROSS FROM THE MEDICAL SCHOOL,
      I
10   II    TOOK THE TISSUES OVER THERE AND STUDIED THEM THERE.
     II
     I
11   I'    Q.     AND,   DOCTOR,         WHEN DID YOU LEAVE SOUTH AFRICA
     i'
12   I'    PERMANENTLY AND WHAT DID YOU DO?
     II
13         A.     I   CAME HERE IN 1954 ON INVITATION TO BE THE

14         DIRECTOR OF THE SARANAC LABORATORY.

15         Q.     AND THAT WAS A LABORATORY YOU MENTIONED BEFORE

16         THAT HAD A INTERNATIONAL REPUTATION AT THE TIME?

17         A.     YES,   SIR.

18         Q.     AND CAN YOU TELL US WHAT EXACTLY SARANAC WAS

19         AND ITS BACKGROUND AND WHAT IT IS YOU DID THERE?

20         A.     IT HAD BEEN IN ITS DAY THE PRIMARY RESEARCH

21         LABORATORY IN THIS COUNTRY ON PNEUMOCONIOSIS.                        IT

22         HAD STARTED IN THE             '20S TO EXPLORE THE RELATIONSHIP

23         BETWEEN TUBERCULOSIS AND SILICOSIS WHICH                 IS ONE MORE

24         OF THE PNEUMOCONIOSES.              THEN FROM :1920,    '30 ONWARDS

25         DR.   GARDNER,      THE DIRECTOR OF THAT LABORATORY         r    BECAME
                                G.    Schepers -   Direct           17


 1        INVOLVED WITH THE ASBESTOS          PROBLEM.      HE DID THAT

 2        AFTER HE VISITED SOUTH AFRICA WHERE AN INTERNATIONAL

 3        LABOR OFFICE CONFERENCE WAS HELD            IN 1930 AND SOME OF

 4        THE REPORTS      PRESENTED BY THE SOUTH AFRICAN

 5        RESEARCHERS ON ASBESTOS DISEASES            INTERESTED HIM IN

 6        THIS.     SO WHEN HE CAME BACK HE PICKED UP ON THEM IN

 7        RELATION TO CHRYSOTILE.           IT ALSO BEING MAJOR

 8        PUBLICATION FROM ENGLAND BY DR.           MERIWEATHER,    THE

 9        CHIEF INSPECTOR OF FACTORY,          AND THAT WAS ANOTHER

10        FACTOR    IN STIMULATING DR.       GARDNER TO DO RESEARCH ON

11        CHRYSOTILE TO SEE IF CHRYSOTILE BEHAVED THE SAME WAY

12        AS OTHER TYPES OF ASBESTOS.

13        Q.      AND,   DOCTOR,     DURING YOUR TIME AS D1RECTOR OF

14        SARANAC LABORATORIES,          WAS SARANAC REQUESTED TO DO

15        RESEARCH BY A SPECIFIC OUTFITS AND CORPORATIONS?

J6   I    A.      YES,   SIR.   THE EXPERTISE OF THE LABORATORY WAS
     I
     !
17   Ii   KNOWN TO INDUSTRY BECAUSE MOST OF THE CASES CAME
     II


18        FROM INDUSTRY.        AND    IN 1935 A CONSORTIUM OR A GROUP

19        OF ASBESTOS MANUFACTURERS GOT TOGETHER WITH DR.

20        GARDNER AND ASKED HIM TO EXPLORE            IN A SYSTEMATIC

21        MANNER THE PRECISE WAY IN WHICH CHRYSOTILE ASBESTOS

22        THEY WERE PRODUCING MIGHT INTERACT WITH TISSUES

23        THROUGH STUDIES WITH ANIMALS AND TO DEFINE WHAT                 IS

24        SAFE USE OF CHRYSOTILE,          WHAT'S NOT SAFE AND HOW        IT

25        PRODUCES DISEASE.           THE FACT IT PRODUCED DISEASE WAS
     II
     II
     II                          G.    Schepers    -   oi rec t        18


 1   ~    PREVIOUSLY KNOWN.           BUT THEY WANTED TO KNOW JUST WHAT

 2    I   THE PARAMETERS ARE.

 3               SO GARDNER UNDERTOOK THIS WORK AND THAT

 4        INVOLVED EXPOSING THOUSANDS OF ANIMALS TO DIFFERENT

 5        DOSES OF ASBESTOS,           DIFFERENT            CONSTITUTED ASBES

 6   II --     MIXED ASBESTOS COMPARING CHRYSOTILE WITH OTHER

 7   I    TYPES OF ASBESTOS WITH TALCS,                WITH DIFFERENT TYPES

 8        OF MINERALS AND PROBING THE ISSUE OF ITS

 9        RELATIONSHIP TO TUBERCULOSIS.                 INCIDENTI,Y ALSO,

10        COUNSEL,     THOSE EXPERIMENTS TOOK ABOUT 18 YEARS TO

11        COMPLF;TE.

12        Q.     AND WHAT YEARS WERE YOU THE DIRECTOR OF

13        SARANAC,     DOCTOR?

14        A.    WHEN I    CAME I       CONTINUED SOME BLIND INQUIRIES OF

15        ACADEMIC NATURE ON THE WAY CHRYSOTILE DOES HARM.                       MY

16        INTEREST WAS     IN TRYING TO DISCOVER WHETHER

17        CHRYSOTILE SHOULD BE CLASSIFIED AS WHAT IS CALLED A

18        CARCINOGEN AS COMPARED TO WHETHER CANCER                 FOUND    IN

19        PEOPLE WITH CHRYSOTILE EXPOSURE WAS A COMPLICATION

20        OF ASBESTOSIS.         AND    IT WAS    IMPORTANT TO FIND THAT

21        OUT BECAUSE THE PROTECTIVE MEASURES THAT ARE NEEDED

22        FOR CANCER PREVENTION ARE ENTIRELY DIFFERENT FROM

23        THE PROTECTIVE MEASURES THAT ARE NEEDED FOR

24        ASBESTOSIS     PREVENTION BECAUSE ASBESTOSIS

25        QUANTITATIVE DISEASE AND CHRYSOTILE IS CARCINOGENIC
                                    G.     Schepers      -   Direct                  19


 1           THERE MAY BE NO DOSE RESPONSE                   ISSUE.

 2           Q.   AND --

 3           A.   THAT'S WHAT         I    DID WITH CHRYSOTILE.           '1' H EN    I

 4           STARTED OTHER SUBSTANCES LIKE FIBERGLASS,                      PLASTICS,

 5           SILICA,    ALL SORTS         O~   THINGS.

 6           Q.   WHAT YEARS                   DID YOU DO ACTUAL RESEARCH

 7           YOURSELF?

 8           A.   OH,    YES.

 9           Q.   AND WHAT YEARS DID YOU DO THE RESEARCH AND WHAT

10           YEARS DID YOU AS DIRECTOR TAKE OVER RESEARCH PROJECT

11       !   THAT HAD ALREADY BEEN ONGOING?

12           A.   1954.

13       I Q.     '54 WAS WHEN YOU BECAME THE DIRECTOR?
         I
14       I   A.   YES,    SIR.
         I   Q.
15   II
     I:
                  AND THE FACILITY HAD BEEN STUDYING THE ISSUE
     I!
16   Ii      HOW LONG BEFORE YOU ARRIVED?
     (j

17   il
     "
             A.   ON ASBESTOS?
     Ii
     I!
18   il
     I,
             Q.   ON ASBESTOS,            YES,   SIR.
     II
19           A.   WELL,    I    ACT U A L IJ Y B E CAM E I NVOL V E D WIT HAS B r; S TO S

20   I       FROM 1935 ONWARDS WHEN I              WAS A STUDENT ASSISTANT TO

21
     II
             TWO PATHOLOGISTS WHO WERE THE PRIMARY RESEARCHERS ON
     I
22           THE SUBJECT OF THE PATHOLOGY OF ASBESTOS DISEASE IN

23   I
     I
             SOUTH AFRICA.

24           Q.   IF I    MAY,     DOCTOR,       I'M GOING TO INTERRUPT YOU.

25           I' IJL COME BACK TO THAT            IN A SECOND.
                                G.    Schepers    -   Direct             20


 1               YOU TOOK OVER        SARANAC    IN 1954?
     II
 2   II
     II
           A.    YES.
     'I


 3   II
     "
           Q.    AND HOW LONG BEFORE YOU ARRIVED THERE HAD THE
     '
     II
 4         EXPERIMENTS USING ASBESTOS BEEN GOING ON?

 5         A.    SINCE 1930 SO THAT'S           20,   24 YEARS.

 6   Ii    Q.    I'M SORRY.      THAT'S WHAT              I    MISUNDERSTOOD

 7   II    YOUR ANSWER.      THAT'S WHY I        INTERRUPTED YOU.

 8               YOU WERE STARTING TO SAY YOU HAD BEEN INVOLVED

 9         WITH TWO PATHOLOGISTS?

10         A.    YES.      THERE WERE TWO OF THE PRIMARY RESEARCH

11         PATHOLOGISTS OF THE HISTORICALLY IMPORTANT PEOPLE

12   I DR.
      II
                S-T-R-A-I-C-H-I-N AND DR.             SIMPSON WHO HAD
     il
13         DEFINED THE PATHOLOGY OF ASBESTOS-CAUSED DISEASE IN

14         HUMAN BEINGS THROUGH AUTOPSY STUDIES ON PERSONS

15         WHOSE LUNGS CAME TO THEM FROM THE AMOSITE MINES AND

16         CROCIDOLITE MINES         IN SOUTH AFRICA.          AND AS A STUDENT

17         ASS 1ST ANT I   CAM E TO W'O R K FOR THE MAN 0        W R KED WIT H
                                                                  0

18         THEIR TISSUES,     WORKED UP THEIR TISSUES FOR THEM.

19         Q.    PERHAPS     I'M ALREADY PASSED IT,            BUT COULD YOU

20         JUST EXPLAIN FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE COURT AND LADIES

21         AND GENTLEMEN OF THE JURY,            SPECIFICALLY WHAT DOES

22         THE TERM "PATHOLOGY"         ENTAIL?

23         A.    PATHOLOGY IS THE BRANCH OF MEDICINE IN WHICH

24         THE PATHOLOGISTS,         WHO CAN EITHER BE A PHYSICIAN OR

25         NONPHYSICIAN,      STUDIES THE NATURE OF DISEASE AND THE
                                     G.    Schepers    -   Direct               21



 1           CAUSATION OF DISEASE THROUGH USING AUTOPSIES WHERE

 2           YOU DISSECT THE PERSON AFTER THE PERSON                     IS DECEASED.

 J           OR YOU USE MICROSCOPE TO IJOOK AT TISSUES THAT HAVE

 4           BEEN CUT THIN AND STAINED AND                  PUT ON GLASS     SLIDE OR

 5           DO CHEMICAL ANALYSES OF FLUIDS SUCH AS                    BLOOD,     URINE,

 6           FLUIDS OBTAINED FROM DIFFERENT PART OF THE BODY

 7           CAVITIES OR TISSUES THAT HAVE BEEN DIGESTED AND

 8           REDUCED TO A FLUID STATE.                THAT CAN ALL BE DONE BY

 9           INSTRUMENTS.          AND PATHOLOGIST LIMITS HIS WORK TO

10           THAT FIELD.

11           Q.      AND WHAT IS       "EXPERIMENTAL PATHOLOGY,"             DOCTOR?

12           A.      EXPERIMENTAL PATHOLOGY IS THE METHODOLOGY OF

13           TRYING TO CLEAR UP            PATHOLOGY PROBLEMS THAT ARE NOT

14           CLEAR FROM HUMAN STUDIES BY USING ANIMALS;                      SUCH AS

15           WORK DR.       GARDNER DID WHICH IT USED THOUSANDS OF

16           GUINEA PIGS AND HAD CijAMBERS                 INTO WHICH HE COULD LET

17           DUST GO AND ANIMALS WOULD BREATHE THE DUST AND AFTER
         ,
         I
         , A YEAR HE'D TAKE THE ANIMALS OUT, KILL THEM AND LOOK
18       I

         I
19           AT THEIR       LUNGS TO SEE WHAT THE DUST HAD DONE.
     ]1

20           Q.      AND,    DOCTOR,      DURING YOUR TIME AS DrRECTOR OF
     II
     :1
21   I
     I
     I
             SARANAC,       DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO VISIT ANY                 ASBESTOS
     I
22           MINES    IN QUEBEC,       CANADA?

23           A.      OH,    YES.   THE SARANAC LABORATORY HAD CONSULTING

24           R E LA T ION S HIP S WIT H S EVE R A L 0 F THE A S B E S 'P 0 S - PRO DUC I NG

25           COMPANIES.        IT HAD A RELATIONSHIP WITH THE QUEBEC
     i
     I.
     I                           G.    Schepers    -       Direct               22
     I



 1        ASBESTOS MINING ASSOCIATION,                 WHICH WAS A CANADIAN

 2        ASSOCIATION OF ALL THE PRODUCERS OF ASBESTOS UP

 3        THERE,      AND WE DID STUDIES         FOR THEM.           ANIMAL

 4        EXPERIMENTAL STUDIES SUCH AS                 I    MENTIONED AND

 5        PATHOLOGY STUDIES.           CASES WERE REFERRED TO US                 BY

 6        REPRESENTATIVES OF THE QUEBEC ASBESTOS MINING

 7        ASSOCIATION AND THEN WE ANALYZED THE TISSUES TO

 8        DETERMINE THE KIND OF DISEASE THAT WAS                       PRESENT,       THE

 9        QUANTITY OF THE DISEASE AND THE PRESENCE OR ABSENCE

10        OF ASBESTOS FIBERS AND TYPES OF ASBESTOS                       FIBERS

11        FOUND       IN RELATION TO THE DISEASE SIPES                 IN THE LUNGS.

12        Q.      AND DURING YOUR TIME THERE VISITING IN CANADA,

13        DID YOU HAVE AN OCCASION TO VISIT WITH ANY DOCTORS

14        AND AUTHORITIES OUT THERE?

15        A.      YES.      MY FIRST         I    KNEW MANY OF THEM,             BUT MY

16        FIRST VISIT WAS        IN 1949 AND LATE             '49 OR EARLY       '50

17        WHEN    I   WAS   A STUDENT OF DR.       LANZA'S.           THAT IS WHEN I

18        MET TWO DOCTORS WHOSE NAMES              I       CAN REMEMBER.        THE ONE

19        IS DR.      KENNETH SMITH,      WHO WAS THEN THE MEDICAL

20        DIRECTOR OF THE JOHNS-MANVILLE BIG MINE AND MILL

21        OPERATION.         AND THE OTHER WAS A DR.                CARTIER,    PAUL

22        CARTIER,       WHO WAS THE MEDICAL DIRECTOR OF AN

23        ORGANIZATION KNOWN AS THE THERFORD CLINIC.                           THERFORD

24        CLINIC SERVED AS        A MEDICAl, DEPARTMENT FOR THE

25        SMALLER      MINES   AND MfLLS THAT DIDN'T HAVE THE
      If


      I
      I

                                        G.   Schepers -           Direct


 1         FINANCES TO FUND THEIR OWN MEDICAL DEPARTMENT.                                         THAT

 2         WAS   DR.       CARTIER'S ROLE.             '1' H0   SEA R E 'r HE 'I' W0    I   Mr~ 'r .

 .1               LATER ON I            USED TO VISIT QUEBEC,                 I'D SAY,          ONCE

 4         EVERY QUARTER AND HAD MEETINGS THERE WITH THE

  5        OFFICIALS OF THE QUEBEC ASBESTOS MINING ASSOCIATION,

 6         WITH THE GOVERNMENT IN UTTAWA AND MONTREAL AND SUCH

 7         P LAC E S WIT H S C [ E N'I' J S '[' S A'I' THE UN T V E R SIT T E SAN D

 8         SCIENTISTS OF 'rHE INDUSTRIES 'T'O RESOLVE                            PROBL,EMS.

 9         Q.     AND        DUR1:N(~   THE '1'IME THAT YOU WERE 'PHERE,                      DID

10         YOU HAVE AN OCCASION TO VISIT ANY OF THK MILLS THAT

11         WERE MILLING ASBESTOS?

12         A.     YE S .

13         Q.     AND HOW ABOUT WITH REGARD TO SPECIFICALLY

14         CHRYSOTILE ASBESTOS?

15         A.     WELL,        UP    IN CANADA THEY WERE ALL CHRYSOTILE.

16         THERE WAS NO OTHER TYPE OF ASBESTOS                                         THERE.
      il
      II
                                                                           MIN~D


17    II
      I·
           Q.     DOCTOR,           DO YOU HAVE ANY EXPERIENCE WORKING WITH
      i
1.8
      I    MICROSCOP}!~S       ?
      I
19         A.     0   H,     YES,    A I, I, MY JJ I FE.
      II
20         Q.     DO YOU HAVE EXPERIENCE WORKING WITH WHAT'S

21         CALLED X-RAY REFRACTION?

22         A.     YES,        SIR.

23         Q.     AND DO YOU HAVE;              EXP}:<~RTENCE        WORKING WITH

24         ELECTRON MICROSCOPES?

25         A.     YJ:<-:S.
           I

                                     G.    Schepers          -   uirecT:                 ;),4
           I
           II
           L
           'I
           I,
       1   Ii   Q.      AND CO U L D YOU   J"   US'1' B RIg ):0' 1. Y S lJ MMAR I Z E YOU R

       2   II   EXPERIENCE AND WHEN IT WAS THAT YOU GAINED
           f!
           I
       3   II   EXPERIENCE IN DEALING WITH EACH OF                      THES~     DIFFERENT
           Ii
           I:
       4
           Ii TECHNIQUES?
           i'
           i
       5   I    A.      BOUGHT MY FIRST MICROSCOPE                 IN 1930 AND NEVER

       6
           I
           I
                BEEN WITHOUT MICROSCOPES.                  THE MICROSCOPE WAS

       7   i    INVENTED ALMOST A CENTURY AGO AND IT HAS BECOME MORE
           I
           I

       8   I    PERFECTED AS TIME WENT BY.

       9
           I            PRESENT DAY MICROSCOPES CAN DO                            THESE ARE

      10        THE OPTICAL MICROSCOPES CAN DO WONDERFUl. THINGS AND

      11        YOU CAN MAGNIFY OR RATHER THE CORRECT WORD TO USE                                IS

      12        TO   "RESOLVE."     IN OTHER WORDS,               YOU CAN SEE CLEARLY
'--
      13        TO A MAGNIFICATION OF 1,500 TIMES WITH THE

      14        MICROSCOPE AT MY DESK RIGHT NOW.                      THAT'S AS FAR AS

      15        THE INSTRUMENT CAN GO.                YOU CAN MAKE THE PICTURES

      16        BIGGER    BY PHOTOGRAPHY THAN WHAT YOU SEE THROUGH YOUR

      17        EYES.     BUT IF YOU GO BEYOND THAT IT BECOMES BLURRY

      18        SO YOU'RE NOT REALLY SEEING THINGS                      PRECISELY.

      19                YOU CAN IDENTIFY STRUCTURES BY USING DIFFERENT

      20        TYPES OF LENS SYSTEM.S             IN THE MICROSCOPE.               YOU CAN

      21        POLARIZE THE LIGHT.              YOU CAN FACE THE LIGHT.                  YOU

      22        CAN DO ULTRAVIOLET.              YOU CAN 1 DEN T I F Y S 'r R UC T U RES

      23        THAT ARE    IN TISSUES OR STRUCTURES THAT HAVE BEEN

      24        OBTAINED FROM TISSUES BY DIFFERENTIAL                        R~FRACTION         BY

      25        PUTTING OILS AND DIFFERENT KIND OF FLUIDS ON THEM
                                      G.    Schepers    -       Direct              25


 ]           WITH A KNOWN RRFRACTIVE             INDEX TO SEE WHETHER THEY

 2       i   BECOME VISIBLE,          INVISIBLE.        THERE'S 101 TECHNIQUES

 3           THAT THE MICROSCOPE CAN AFFORD FOR THE

 4           IDENTIFICATION OF ABNORMAl, SUBSTANCES                       IN TISSUES.

 5           Q.   AND CAN YOU TELL THE LADIES AND GENTLEMEN OF

 6           THE JURY AS WELL AS THE COURT ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCE

 7           WITH ELECTRON MICROSCOPES AND HOW THEY WORK?

 8           A.   YES.         THA'l' STARTED               I    BOUGHT THE FIRST

 9           ELECTRON MICROSCOPE FOR THE PNEUMOCONIOSIS BUREAU

10           JUST BEFORE r        LEF'r AND THEN ALL Or' A SUDDEN 'fHE

11           INVITATION TO COME HERE CAME AND                      I   DIDN'T HAVE ANY

12           MICROSCOPE.         WE DIDN'T HAVE THE MONEY FOR IT.                        'rHEY

13           WERE VERY EXPENSIVE THEN.                 BUT I       USED THE ELECTRON

14           MICROSCOPE SERVICES OF THE LARGE INDUSTRIES THAT WE

15           DID CONTRACT WORK FOR.              FOR INSTANCE,           THE PITTSBURGH

16           PLATE GLASS CORPORATION HAD AN ELECTRON MICROSCOPE,

17           LABORATORY,        AND   I    USED THAT.

18                THE JOHNS-MANVILLE CORPORATION HAD ELECTRON

19           MICROSCOPES AND THEN MY REAL, F'UN STAR'I'ElJ WHEN T

20           JOINED THE DUPONT CORPORATION IN 1958,                        BECAME

21           PATHOLOGIST FOR THEM.              THERE WE HAD A WHOLE BATTERY
     i

22   I OF MICROSCOPES SITTING AROUND THE ROOM AND COULD DO
23           ANYTHING    WF~    WAN'T'ED WITH 'l'HE ELECTRON SCOPES.

                  CO U L D YOU TEL IJ U S AL ITT I, E B I 'r ABO lJ 'r HOW 'r HE
24
     I
     II      Q.

25   !I      ELECTRON MICROSCOPES WORK             AS OPPOSED TO A REGULAR


     I
     I
                                            G.   Schepers     -    lli. rAcr.                ),6


         :
     01
 1   Ii      MICROSCOPE:?

 2
     II                 YES.      THE ELECTRON MICROSCOPE DOESN'T USE
     II      A.
     n
     I'
 3   I:
     Ii
             LIGHT,         IT USES ELECTRONS.              AND WI 'fH A L] GHT
     I:

 4
     Ii      MICROSCOPE YOU USR THE LIGHTS SAME AS WHAT COMES
     I'
     I
     I
 5           FROM A LAMP AND YOU [<'OCUS                   1'1' AND CONCEN,]'RATE THE
     It
             LIGHT SO IT'S VERY BRIGHT AND IT GOES THROUGH
 6
     I
 7           SYSTEMS OF LENSES AND THE LENSES DlRECT THE LIGHT AT
     I
     I

 8           DIFFERENT ANGLES TO MAKR WHATEVER YOU LOOK SHARPER

 9           OR NOT.           YOU HAVE WHEELS AND KNOBS THAT YOU CAN SPIN

10           TO GET THINGS             [N FOCUS.

11                      ELECTRON MICROSCOPE DOESN'T DO THAT.                              IT USES

12   !       NO LIGHT.            IT USES        ELECTRONS.         ELECTRONS ARE LITTLE

13           THINGS THAT SPIN AROUND ATOMS AND                            IT HAS MAGNETS             IN

14           IT THAT WILL DIRECT THOSE ELECTRONS TO GO WHERE THE

15           INSTRUMENT IS GOING.                   THEN FROM THEREON THE FOCUSING

16           SYSTEM IS VERY SIMILAR 'fO AN OPTICAL MICROSCOPE AND

17           YOU CAN DIRECT THOSE ELECTRONS TO GO UP TO WHEREVER

18           THEY GO AND IF THEY STRIKE AN OBJECT,                              SAY LIKE THIS

19           SPEAKER,          THEN THEy'LL BOUNCE OFF                  IT AND IN BOUNCING

20           THEy'LL MAKE AN IMAGE THAT THE INSTRUMENTATION IN

21           THE SCOPE CAN RECORD FOR YOU AND YOU CAN ACTUALLY

22           SEE WHAT THEY BOUNCE OFF.

23                      THERE ARE TWO TYPES OF ELECTRON MICROSCOPES

24           THAT ARE USED             fN    PATHOLOGY.           THE ONE IS CALLED A

25           '1' RAN   S MIS S TON E L, E C '(' RON MI C K0 S COP [4: AN IJ 'r HF:   0   THE R I S
     ;j                                   G.       Scheper!';      -    IJi recto                    27
      I
 1    I   CALLED A SCANNING ELECTNON MICROSCOPE.                                           rrHE   SCANNING

 2        WORKS     LIKE A TELEVISION SET.                              IT SCANS WITH LITTLE

 3        LINES.         YOU'VE SEEN TELEVISION SET WHEN YOU JUST

 4        SWITCH     IT ON.              YOU SEE LOTS OF LINES.                        ,]'HAT MEANS

 5        THAT THE        INSIDr; OF' THE T. V.                    ARE GOING V£o;RY QUICKLY

 6        LIKE SO.         AS     1'1'    HJTS AN         OR~JECT        IT WIIJIJ MAKE A

 7        REFLECTION AND REFLECT BACK.

 8                THE SCANNING SCOPE                      IS OF GREAT VALUE                   IN THAT

 9   I
     i
          YOll CAN MAKE THREE DIMENSION                                IMAGES       WITH    IT SO YOll

10   I CAN MAKE THING LOOK VERY PRETTY AND DRAMATIC.
     I'                                                                                                   BUT
     I]
11   I:   IT ONLY BOUNCES OFF THE SURFACE UF THE STRUCTURE AND
     II
     'i
12        IT ONl,Y GIVES            YOU A PICTURE OF WHAT                           IS ON THE
     II
13        SUR FA C E .     AND 'I' 0       MA KE SO Mfo: T H IN (; IJ IKE AS RES 'I' 0 S

14        V I SIB L E,   YOU H AV E 'I' 0            CO AT THE AS B EST 0 S WIT H GO 1J D 0 R

15   II   WITH CHROMIUM.                 SO        YOU PUT THE SPECIMEN YOU'RE GOING
     il
     il
16   Ii   TO LOOK AT        IN AN APPARATUS THAT WILL VAPORIZE GOLD
     il

17   II
      I
          OR CHROMIUM OR SOME OTHER METAL,                                  AND THEN THE METAL
      I
18   " A'rOMS
     :1
                    GO              LIE AND           ATTACH THEMSELVES TO THE

19        ASBESTOS       FIBERS,           AND WHEN YOU DO THE SCANNING SCOPE

20        PICTURE,       WHA'I'     YOU ACTUALIJY SEE,                    'rHE PI C't'URE THAT YOU

21   ,I   GE'r IS    A PICTURE OF THE GOLD.                              YOU DON'rp SEE THE

          ASBESTOS       FIBERS           IN       IT YOU ,JUST SEE THE                PICTURE OF

23        THE GOLD AROUND                I If' •     SO   ] I.P   HAS    l'rS   LIM I Ip A']' I ON    IN

24        THAT YOU' RE          Nl'~VE:R       ACTUALLY SEEING ASBES'POS AND YOU

25        CAN "T' A NA L, Y ~ E: A S B E S 'r a SAN /) YOU CAN' 'r SAY WHAir KIN D
      I'
                                          G.     Schepers       -   Ilirect                28
      I



 1    II      OF ASBESTOS YOU'RE DEALING WITH.                            YOU CAN JUS'r SAY
          I                   ASB~STOS             FIB~R
 ).       I HERE IS AN                                        AND LOOK     IT'S    PRETTY.          IT
      d
      p
 3            HAS THIS      SHAPE.         AND ITS           LIMIT OF MAGNIFICATION              IS
          I
 4            4 , 00 0 TIM E S,   SOl']" SON IJ Y ABO U'I' '[' WI C E THE
      ,I
 5    Ii      MAGNIFICATION         OF'    AN OPTICAL MICROSCOPE;.                    }o'OR 'rHAT
      II
      I'
      I'
 6    Ii      REASON IT CANNOT SEE A CHRYSOTILE FIBER                              BECAUS~
      I'
      ,I
 7    If      CHRYSOTILE FIBERS ARE FAR TOO FINE TO BE SEEN BY A
      ,I
      "
      ,I



 8    II      SCANNING SCOPE.
          I
          I
 9                   THE TRANSMISSION SCOPE GOES THROUGH THE OBJECT
          I
          1
          I
10        I
          I
              AND    IT BOUNCES NOT ON THE SURFACE OF THE OBJECT BUT
          I

11
      Ii      ON THE ATOMS OF WHICH THAT OBJECT IS MAVE.                                  AND SO

12    I,      YOU CAN GET A TRUE                 PICTURE OF HOW THAT STRUCTURE
      I'
      I
13            THAT    IS   IN THE    PATHWAY OF THE ELECTRON LOOKS                         LIKE.

14            AND l'r REALLY HAS NO LIMI'r OF MAGNIJ4'ICA,]' JON.                            THE R}o;

J5            ARE TRANSMISSION MfCROSCOPES THAT CAN MAGNIFY A

16            MILLION T].MES.             THEY'RE NOT USED FOR                 IDENTIFYING

17            ASBEs'ros    FIBERS.             Bll'l'   IF   YOU l,OOK    A'l' A CHRYSO'I'll.. E

18            FIBER YOU CAN ONLY                 SEE A CHRYSOT(LE             FIB~R             'fOU

19            CAN BAR E L 'f SEE I 'r I F YOU MAG N I F Y WI 'r H A '1' RAN S MIS S ION

20            ELECTRON MICROSCOPE ABOUT 20,000 TIMES.

21                   CHRYSOTILE,           AMOSITE,           TREMOLITE,      OTHER ASBESTOS

22            FIBERS YOU CAN SEE FROM 1,000,                         2,000,     UPWARDS     WITH

23            ELECTRON MICROSCOPE.                      THE CHRYSOTILE FIBER REMAINS

24            INVISIBL(i~,    TO'I'ALLY          INVISIBIJE.        YOU DON'')' SEE

25            ANYTHING lJN'l'1 l, YOU ra:'I' 'T'O 20,000                 AND YOU REALd.Y
                                                (,;.      schp.per!'l    -   lJirect".



  3.           BEG I N T () S gEl '[' 0 N IJ Y eLF: A R IJ Y WHEN YOU 1I P TO 4 0 , 0 0 0

  2            TIMES.          THEN YOU SEE THAT                     IT CONSISTS              O~         A THIN

  3            TUBE,       LIKE A DRINKING STRAW.                            YOU'VE SEEN

  4            TRANSPARENT DRINKING STRAWS                               IN THE RESTAURANT.                             I'}'


  5                                                    IT'S HOLLOW INSIDE AND WITH A THIN

  6            RIM AROUND           IT AND THAT'S                   WHAT YOU        SEE WJTH THE

  7            SCOPE.

  8                      IF    YOU MAKE A CROSS-SECTION OF                               IT,        IF YOU CUT

  9            IT ACROSS,           LIKE SO,               AND YOU       LOOK AT         IT     ~ND           ON LIKE

10             SO,     THE N A'P ABO UTA HAL F'                     M I 1. i. [ 0 N TIM E SMA G N I FIe A T ION

11             YOU ' L L      FIN D 'r HAT 'II H E FIB J:o~ R ISH 0             L.IJ 0 W,     B {J '1'    1   'II'S    NOT

12             H0   L LOW TO'}' A IdJ Y .         ] 'I'   's HOL1,OW                LE'r MIe; SEE                IF'    I

1.3    I:      HAVE SOMETHING               I     CAN        SHOW YOU WI'rH.
       II
       I!
14     Ii                IT'S HOLLOW LIKE THIS                          PIECE OF         PAPER            WOULD BE

       I:
15             HOLLOW.          AND I       TOOK THE             PAPER       AND ROLLED                  IT UP         LIKE
       I
16
       I       SO.      T HAT'S      WHAT A C H R Y SOT I L E FIB E R L 0 0 K S IJl KE WHEN
       I:
17             YOU LOOK AT           IT THROUGH A TRANSMISSION ELECTRON

18             MICROSCOPE.            THAT'S               NOT WHAT AMOSITE,                  CROCIDOLITE

19
       I                              THEY'RE SOLID THINGS.                              YOU ' RED E A I, r N G
       I
20     I
       If      WITH TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THINGS AND (JNLY                                                    ELECTRON
       II
       11

/,1    I:
       .I      MJ C R 0 S COP E CAN '1' F. I, L YOU T HA'}' .
       I;
22                      AND,      DOC'I'OR,            CAN    YOU    'PEr,L ME                  YOU           MEN'l' I ON ED
           i   Q.
                                                                               Bfi';CAMF: 'l'BE: CHI :£<:£1' o £I'
/.3
       I
        I      THA'I' AF'rER YOU            LEF"fl SARANAC YOU

24     II
       il
               PATHOLOGY FOR            DUPON'r?
       II
25     ii      A.       YES.

       II
       I(
      I,
      !J
      "!
      ~




      II                                                    G.        Schepers                    -       Direct                                .lO


 1    I:
      Ii      Q.                AND    DURIN(~             YOUR               TIME           'I'HI:o-;Rr~,     DID        YOU       CON'l'INUE                'PO


  2   11
      II      B E l N VOL V            I<~   D    WI']' HAN A L Y Z J N (7                     '1'1 S S U g,         HAN D r.I N G
      II
      [   ~
 3    I'
      Ii      EXPERIMENTS                         AND      X-RAYS,                    M 1 C R 0 S COP E SAN D                      PArr H 0 1J 0 G Y          AS
      II
      P
      Ii
  4           YOU           D r~ S c: RIB F; D         fo' 0 R      US?
      II
          I
 5        I   A.                YES,         SIR.          THE           SAMfi;         'l'HING            ROIJGHIJY.                r'r    WA S
          I
      II
                                                                                                                                                I. A R G E: S rr
      "
 6            DUPONT                 COMPANY             HAD                          I'}'     WAS         THE       C 0 U N 'I' R Y   's
      II
      I'
 7    I'
      I'
              C HEM I C A 1.           COM PAN Y                 '1' HER E       ANn           TT         PRO Due ED           ABO U T          .3, 0 0 0

  8
      II
      I;      NEW           CHEMICALS                  ~VERY             YEAR           AND           SOME          OF    TH~M         WE       THOUGHT


 9            TO           BE    MARKETAB I.E                    AN D THAT                   'I'HE        GOV ERNME;N']'            R EGULAT I ON S

10            R EQU I RING                   THAT        ANYTH I NG                   THAT            A    COMPANY             WANTED             'l'0


11
      I       MARKET,                 DISTRIBUTE                      TO       THE           PUBLIC            WHERE           HUMAN            B~INGS
      I
12    I       COULD              MAKE            CONTACT,                HAD          TO       HAVE          LABELS            ON THEM

13    I       SAY I N G              WHAT         RI SK S          W l:i: REA '1' '1' A C H E D              'r 0    H gIN G        £0; X P 0 S I<: D      rro


14            THESE              THINGS.


15
      I                         SO    WE         HAD     TO        WORK          OUT           FOR         THE       COMPANY               WHA'J'        THEi:

16            PARAMETERS                         OF    HARMFULNESS                           OR       OTHERW[SE                WOULD            BE       OF

17        !   '}'   H F;    NEW       PRO D U C'P S              rp H A rro    I T      P 1, ANN 1:0; D        TO        S ELI, •


18            Q.                SO,    THE            TESrrING                WAS       ALL           WITH          NEW     PRODUC'rS                 IT


19            WASN'T                 JUST         WITH           ANYTHING                    THAT          WAS       ALREADY               IN


20            EXISTENCE?


21            A.                NO,    IT'S            ALL         FOR         NEW           PRODUCTS.                    WE       OCCASIONALl.Y


22                              SOMETHING               THAT            HAD           BEEN            PREVIOUSLY                   CERTIFIED                  TO

2.3           BE           GOOD       CREATED              A       PROBLEM,                    PROBLEM               WITH          THE      INCIDENT


24            RIGHT              HERE            IN    CAMDEN,                 NEW           JERSEY,                WfTH       A    MAN         WHO


25            DIED              FROM         AN       EXPOSURE                 '1'0    DRY            ClJEANING             S(Jf.lJ'l'ION.
                                                      G.        Schepers               -   Oirecr                          31



 1          WHEN         DID       If' H f';        A U '1' 0 P S Y        () N    HTM     reo U [.rJ N   I '1'    FIN D     'T' H E


 2          RI'~ASON     OF WHY                HE HAD DIED.                            AND    SO WE       HAD TO GU DO

 3          THAT EXPERIMENT WJTH THAT MATERIAL ALL OVER AGAIN TO

 4          FIND OUT WHY HE HAD DIED                                              BECAUSE WE HAD                  NO WARNING

 5          PREVIOUSLY.

 6                  WE    F 0 UND              er   HA ejl WE:         HAD         BEE N RIG H T P R F: V IOU SLY,

 7          THAT 'l'HE MATF";RIAL WAS                                  NONTOXIC.               BUT WHAT WE DIDN'T

 8          KNOW WAS,          I   F YOU                .1<:   X c I., U 0 E A 1.1J 0 X Y(; E N F.' ROM THE

 9    I     ENVIRONMENT,                 THE MATERIAL WOULD REPLACE                                               ALL THE

10          OXYGEN BECAUSE                          l"f IS        HF:AVIER             THAN    AIR     ANI> 'rHIS MAN
     II
11          WAS 0 NTH E G R 0 lJ NOW 0 R KIN G 0 N S 0 M E                                        P r P l<: S SOH E;         l)   lED

12          OF LACK OF OXYGEN.                                    WE       O]lJN'T KNOW.              THAT'S WHERE WE

13          WOULD DO THE EXPERIMENTS ALL OVER AGAIN TO SEE

14          WH E T H F..; R T HAT SUB S If A NeE                           IS      POI SON 0 US 0 R NOT.

15          Q.      AND WHAT YEAR                               EXACTLY WAS                  IT YOU WENT WITH

16          DUPONlr?

17          A.      THEN       I      JOINED THE                           FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

18                  EXCUSE ME,                        DOCTOR.                     WHAT YEAR        WAS       fT YOU WENT
     1'1'   Q.
19          TO DUPONT?
     I
20   I      A.      I    WENT 'rHl!:RE 1958.
     II
21          Q.      AND WHEN                   DID YOU LEAVE?

22          A.      FIVE YEARS                        IJA'T'ER,            '6.1.

23          Q.      AND YOU s'rARlrED                               '1'0     SAY       FI<OM 'T'HERE        YOO WEN'I" 'PO

24          THE    FEDERAL GOV.ERNMEN"f?

            A.                                                                     f   JOINfo:U                   BECAMEi:
     Ii
     !
                                     G.     Schepers            -    Ilirect                    3),




 1           DIRf;C'f'OR Of<' PA'l'HOLOGY        fo'Of<      BUR8AU OF 1.ABORATORIES

 2           PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICE OF WASHINGTON,                                   D.C.    S '1' A l' ED
         ,
     i!
 3           WITH THAT FOR        ~IVE      YEARS AND THEN                     I   JOINED THE

 4           VETERANS ADMlNISTRATION                  IN      1970,       STAYED WITH 'l'HE;M

 5       I   UNTIL LAST YEAR.

 6   II      Q.     DOCTOR,      HAVE YOU HAD ANY EXPERfENCE WITH                                 ~IBER
     Ii
 7   i
     "
             ANALYSIS OR ANALYZING THE MAKEUP OF                                   PAR,]'TCULAR

 8           FIRERS THAT YOU OBSERVE?

 9           A.     OH,   YES.     DONE THAT MOST OF MY                            LIF~.


10           Q.     ROUGHLY COUI,Tl         YOU ES'I'IMATE 'rHE NUMBER OF                         PEOP1JE

11           OR TISSUE MATERIALS THAT YOU'VE EXAMINED WITH REGARD

12                  WITH MESO'I'HEl,IOMA?

13           A.     I'VE SEEN OVER           2,000 MESOTHELIOMA CASES.                                MOST

14           OFT H0 SEW ERE       P I, E U R A L ME S 0 '1' H E Id 0 MAS .           I   THINK ABOUT

15           100 OF THEM ARE         PERITONEAL.                    IN OTHER WORDS,

16           ME SOT HE L 10M A 1 S N() 'r    IN '1' H l:'~    P I, F~ UR A .       THE PRIMARY

17           FINDING WAS       IN THE ABDOMINAL CAVITY.

18           Q.     AND CAN YOU        ESTIMATE THE NUMBER OF                            PEOPLE THAT

19           YOU'VE EXAMINED WITH ASBESTOS DISEASE?

20           A.     THEY RUN      [NTO THE TENS OF THOUSANDS,                              LIVING

21           PEOPLE THAT I       STUDIED,          PATHOLOGY              SPECIM~NS         FROM

22           DECEASED     PERSONS.          I'D SAY AN AVERAGE OF THREE A DAY

23           AND   I'VE DONE THAT MOST OF MY LIFE.

24           Q.     HAVE YOU      EVER DONE ANY RESEARCH REGARDING

25           MESOTHELIOMA?
     I!

                                               G.       SchRperS       -   uirec~




 I             A.           YI!:S,    SlR.

 2             Q.           AND      HAV~    YOU      EVER       DONE ANY RESKARCH               REGARDING

 3             THI!:       I!:XPI!:RII!:NCE WITH MESOTHI!:LIOMA                 IN THE UNITED

 4             STATES OR CANADA?

 5             A.           YES,      SIR.     THE       FIRST CASE OF            M~SOTHELIOMA


 6             DISCOVERED              IN THE UNITED STATES                    WAS    DESCRIBED             BY    M~


 7             IN 1955.               THIS    WAS      A VETERAN WHO WAS               A PATIENT             IN
     !,
 8   II  II'   1'HE BRONX HOSPITAL,                      V.A.     HOSPITAL,          AND HE HAD A

 9             PER ITO N E A b ME S () 'I' H 1:0: L 10M A AND THE              8 RON X VET ERA N S
     I
10             ADMINISTRATION CONSULTED ME ON THIS.                                      I   HAD      8ECOME A
     II
     I

               CONsuvrANT TO 'I'HE                    VETERANS        ADMTNIS'l'RATION FROM                  '54
11
     I
12             ONWARDS,              SO THEY REFERRED THE1R                    PROBL~M       CASES          TO ME.

13             Q.           HAD YOU EVER              SEEN       ANY MESOTHELIOMA CASES                     BEFORE

14             1955?

15
     I         A.
                            YES.       I    SAW THEM         IN SOUTH AFRICA.                I    SAW THE

16   ,!
               MANAGER            OF THE CHRYSOTILE MINE WHICH HAD
     II
     il
     'I

17   ::        MESOTHELIOMA.                 THE R EWE R r;         1 2 CAS E S 0 F P I., E UR A L
     !!

18   II        DISEASE            IN AMOSITE MINES                THAT     I   THOUGHT WERft:

               MESO'I'HELIOMAS,               BU'l'    SINCE WE CLOSED THE MINES OUT AND

20             THEN         I   CAME       IMMEDIATELY AFTER THAT TO THE UNITED
     I
21             STATES TO STUDY HERE,                         I   LOST TRACK OF THOSE CASES;

22             80      I    DON'T KNOW         WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM AND THEY WERE

23             N EVE R F 0 L IJ 0 WED UP.

24                          BUT A FOR MER             S rr U D E 1\1'1' 0 F' MIN E C A IdJ E D 0 R.    U'I' LEY

25             F 0 1J lJ 0 Wf4~ D UP 0 N 'r H E INC I D F.: N'I' 8 0 F CAN C E R S           J N 'I' H F;
                                            G.    Schepers -        Direc~                         34



 1         DIS IT' R r c   rl',    C 0 lJ N'11 Y A S YOU MIG HTeA LL       T 'I',    WH8 RET HAT

  2        MINE HAD               PREVIOUSL.Y     OPERAlrJ:o~D.      OBVIOUSLY,                 WHEN THE

 3    II   P80PLE LOST THF;IR .JOBS AND MINfo;S                         WERE CLOSED 'lIHEY
      I,

 4
      Ii
      Ii   DISBURSED BECAUSE THERE WAS                            NOTHING FOR THEM TO DO
      l!
      II
 5    II
      I' BECAUSE THE VILLAGE WAS JUST AROUND THE MINE.                                                  AND
      II
      tI
      Ii
 6         SO DR.          UTLEY DEMONSTRATED IN AN EPIDEMIOLOGICAL
      II
      ,
 7         STUDY THAT HE HAD DONE THAT THERE WAS                                    AN     EXCESS OF
      "
      I'
 8    "
      I:   CANCERS           IN THAT PARTICULAR DISTRICT AS                          COMPARED TO
      I
 9    I,   NEIGHBORING DISTRICTS                     IN SOUTH AFRICA.

10         Q.       AND CAN YOU 'JIF:LL ME               J fo"   YOU HAD ANY EXPERIENCE

11         IN DEALING WITH                  AND   IDENT1FYING         AND DIAGNOSING

12         MESOTHELIOMAS                IN THE UNITED STATES AFTER                         THE ONE YOU

1.3        DESCRIBED               IN 1955 FROM THE              BRONX HOSPITAL?

14         A.       WELl.,          FROM THEN ON SPORADICAl.LY CASES CAME TO

15         ME.      I      BECAME ACQUAINTED WITH A OR.                      SELIKOFF              IN NEW

16         YORK CITY AND A DR.                    CHURG HERE FROM NEW JERSEY AND

17         WE EXCHANGED CASES.                     MESOTHELIOMA IS A NEW DISEASE

18         THEN FOR THE UNITED STATES.                            AND AFlrER         UR.

19         S E 1,1 K0 F fo" 1 S ME E TIN GIN 1 9 6 4,            THE I WI' ERN AIr ION A L UN ION

20         AGAINST CANCER WH[CH                    HAS   ITS       HEADQUARTERS                 IN FRANCE,

21         !:'"ORME 0 MESOTHEI.IOMA               PAN El, S IN IrH 8     D I F F'ER ENT

22         COUNTRIES AND                [   WAS   ASKED TO BE A MEMBER OF THE

23         MESOTHELIOMA PANEL FOR THE UNITED STATES ALONG WITH

24         DR.    CHURG AND A FEW OTHER DOCTORS.

25         Q.       HOW MANY DOC'TORS WERE CHOSEN FROM                               Il'H!:'~    UNI'rED
                                              G.    S~hpppr!'l       -       Direct"                            3S


 1       S T A'r E s      'r () REO NTH A 'r Mft~ S 0 'r H Ii: T J       J   0 MAP A NEb?


 2       A.          WHO THE OTHERS WERE?

 J       Q.          NO,       HOW MANY?

 4       A.           l   'I' H 1   N K THE R E; WERE A I, 'I' 0 G t5 T H t<~ R      ft' 0   UR     0    R F I V E; .

 5       I'VE FORGOTTEN THE NAMES.                                  I'VE LOST CONTACT WITH

 6       THEM        AFTER MID-'70S                   WHEN      1   BECAME TOO BUSY.

 7       Q.          AND WHAT WAS                  THE JOB OR THE               ROLE OF THE

 8       MESOTHELIOMA                    PANEL MEMBERS?                      WHAT WAS             ]'1'    THAT YOU

 9   i   DID?

10       A.          WHAT WE HAD TO DO WAS TO DEFINE THE DIAGNOSTIC

11       CRITERIA FOR DECIDING WHETHER A PARTICU1,AR                                                        CANCER          J S

12       A MESOTHELIOMA -VS-                          BEING ANOTHER               KIND OF CANCER.

13                   A CANCER              ARISING,        SAY      IN THE LUNG,                    CAN BURROW

14       THROUGH THE SURFACE OF THE l,UNG                                      AND     APPf<~AR             IN THE

15       SPACE,           PLEURAL           SPACfo~.       AND      IT CAN DO THAT IF THE

16   I   CANCER RIDES VERY NEAR THE SURFACE OF THE LUNG.                                                                   I'r

17       CAN GET TO THE OUTSIDE OF THE LUNG                                          BEFORE IT DIGS
     I
     I
     I
18       INTO THE LUNG.                       SO YOU CAN HAVE CONFUSION THERE AS

19       TO WHAT TYPE OF CANCER                            IT WAS.

20                   AND ALSO CANCERS THAT FORM IN,                                     SAY,             OTHER

21       ORGANS OF THE BODY LIKE KIDNEY,                                       PROSTRATE,                   HAVE THE

22       A B r 1,] TY TO Il'RA VF<..;L.,           IN 'I'H F.   B I'<)OD S'I'R EAM AN D THEY CAN

23       RARELY,            NOT OFTEN,              BUT THEY        CAN RARELY                    RELOCATE TO

24       rl' H F.   P l,fl~ U R A 0 R 'T'O 'r Ii E: SUR ft' ACE 0 F 'I' H E L U N G N EAR                        'I' H E

2S       PI, F. U R A .
        I:
        II
        I'

                                                               (~.       Sch       P.    per!=:     -    [) ire c t                                    36


   1    II                 ANn            'f HEN        A LS 0           A     F   to~   W 'I' U M0 R s e A N             to' 0 R M F' ROM

   2     I
         I    TIS SUE S               T H A 'T'      ARE          I N        'I' H"~      C H E S 'r     WAI, LJ       I, IKE          to' ROM         NERVES ,

   3    Ii    FROM         THE            SKIN          NEXT             DOOR             AND       CAN         DIG       IN.               SO      OUR            ,JOB
        II
   4          IS     TO        DEFINE                HOW          YOU          DIAGNOSE                  THE         DISEASE,                     WHEN             IS     A
        II
   5          MESOTHELIOMA                          A        MESOTHELIOMA                           AND         WHAT          TESTS               TO       MAKE
        'I
   6          AND         WHAT            SUSTAINING                         METHODS                TO      USE        TO        DEFINE                THE

   7    II    DIS E AS £0; •

   8
        IiI                SINCE               THERF;             WAS          THEN            A    SUSPICION                    THAT             THE

   9          DISEASE                 WAS         CAUSED                 BY        ASBESTOS                 O"K      'fRAT          ASHfo:S'POS                    IS

10            ONE         OF     THE           CAUSES,                   WE        ALSU            LOOKED            FOR         EVIDENCE                    OF

1'1           A S B E S 'f' 0 S           TO      S E .fo~     I .. ,    WF:       C 0 U I, 0       F r ND          HOW       MAN Y 0 F                'r H I:!:

'I 2    Ii    CASES            I'I'       WAS       DI':MONS'I'RABLE                           AS       ASBi<:STOS               IN         THE

         i
13      I     MESOTHELIOMA                          TISSUE.

14            Q.           AND            YOU       MENTIONED                            EARLIER            THAT          ONE         OF          YOUR

15            STUDENTS                    nID       RESEARCH,                            EPIDEMIOLOGICAL                            STUDY.

16            YOU         TELL            THE       I,ADIES                  AND          GENTLEMEN                  OF       THE           ,JURY          AS

17      II    WELL         AS         THE         COURT                 WHAT             TEACHING               POSITIONS                       YOU        HAVE

18            H E I., D    D URI N G              YO LJ RCA R E E R ?

19            A.           {    'rAUGHT                 M}i:DICAl.                 STUDENTS                 F'ROM         1935              ONWARD                 IN

20            SOU'l'H          AFRICA               THROIJ(iH                  TO         j   943.          I       WAS       '1' H 1': N       F U L (,

21            PROFESSOR                    AND          'T'HEN           1     ,JOTNI':O            'I'HE       GOVERNMft:WI'

2 ;I,         DE PAR T ME WI'                  ANn           CON '}' T N U EDT E A C H T N G                         P H Y S ICH, () G Y               AND


23            PA'rHOLOGY                   COURSE                 fI'OR        A         WHIl,F..           THEN          I     SfPOPPED


24            BECAlISE                r    WAS          'l'00           BUSY.                 IN    THIS            COUNTRY                 1     DID        A

25            IJITTLE           TEACHING,                        BUT           NOT            MUCH.             I    DID        SOME             AT
      I'

      II
       !                                G.    Schepers         -    lJirect.                    37



  1        HER S HI:'~ Y ME DIe A t.    S C H00 L WHEN         I    WAS     ADO C '110 R    A'1' '1' H E

  2        LEBANON V.A.          H()SP1TAIJ AND           I    DID       ~OMI:i:   AT THE

  3        GEORGETOWN UNIVERSI'ry MED] CAL SCHOOL                                  IN GEORGE'POWN.

  4                THE S A RAN A C IJ ABO R A '{' 0 R Y HAD ATE AC H J NG FUN C T ION .

  5        IT RAN CONFERENCES                 AND    fT   RAN A SCHOOL,                POSTGRADUATE

 6         SCHOOL FOR        DOCTORS,           AND WE TRAINED                DOCTORS THROUGH

 7    Ii   FORMAl.. COURSES WHICH WHEN                    I    WAS       [N CHARGE WE'D               PUT

  R        TOGETHER       AND TEACH THEM NEW THINGS THAT WERE

 9         AVAILABLE TO THEM TO KNOW                      ABOUT LUNG DISEASES.

10                 I   LATER ON BECAME A MEMBER OF VARIOUS

11         SOCIETIES,        PROFESSIONAL SOCIETIES,                          LIKE AMERICAN

12         COLLEGE OF CHEST PHYSICIANS,                            AMERICAN COLLEGE OF

13         CARDIOLOGY,         INDUS'I'RIAfJ MElJICAJJ ASSOCIATION.

14         ASSIs'rED AND CHAIRED                 PROGt<.AMS TO 'rRAIN OUR
      I
15    Ii   COIJLEAGUES       IN CER'PATN ARF;AS OF' MEDICINE.
      :i
       I
16         PROGRESSIVELY,              AS TIME       PASSED,         I    FOCUSED ON THE
       I
17         OCCUPATIONAlJ DISEASES                   AND   1    BF:CAME THE           SECREo~TARY             Oft'


1 8        'II H E COM MIT '1' E EON     0   C CUP AT ION A L DIS E A S E,           EVE N T U A JJ   JJ Y

19         ITS    CHAIRMAN,       AND HELD ANNUAL COURSES                          FOR     DOCTORS ON

20         HOW '1'0 RECOGNIZE 'rHESE 01 SEASES                           AND TELl, THEM WHAT S                 I




21         NEW ABOUT THESE DISEASES.                          THA'r's       THE SORT OF THING

22         I    DID.

23         Q.      DOCTOR,      0 UR I NG YOUR T I ME AT TH P, VE'I'ERAN S

24         ADMINISTRATION,              orD YOU HAVE ANY DUTIES OR

25         RESPONSIBILfTTES              REGARDING            IDENTIFYING            PROBLEMS           AN[)
         I
                                                 G.       Schepers     -    Direct"-                         38
      I
 1   Ii      T DEN T I F Y [N (.;       A S fH~ S '1' 0   SIN PUB LIe          B U I L DIN G S ?

                               SIR,           TWO TYPES.                       MANY VETERANS                 HAD
 2
     ~
         I
         I
             A.       YES,                                           'PHE

 3   i!      ENCOUNTERED ASBESTOS                           DISEASE                   AS B E S 'Ii 0 S DU S iJ'
     II
     I'                                                                         AND THE VETERANS
 4           DURING THEIR MJLI'l'ARY SERVICE.
     !
 5   II
     I!
             ADMINISTRATION LAW                           PROVIDED BENEFITS                FOR     THOSE
     'I
     II
 6           VETERANS[         FINANCIAL AND OTHER BENEFITS,                                      IF    IT COULD
     II
     II
     H
 7           BE: ESTABLISHED                  THA'I~      THE.lR    PROBLEM WAS                 DUE TO
     I;
     I;      MIL I TAR Y S E R V I          C l'~,    WAS MAD 1'; W0 R S E B Y MIld ir A R Y
 8   Ii

 q   I:      SERVICE,        IF         IT STARTED BEFORE MILITARY SERVICE OR

10           STARTED WITHIN ONE YEAR                              FROM MILITARY                 S~RVICE.


11                    NOW,     MANY OF THE ASBESTOS DfSEASES DON'T SHOW

12       , UP THAT WAY.                     THEY ONLY             SHOW UP       20     YEARS       LATER.          SO
     I'
         I



13       I   THERE WAS         A DISCONNECTION BETWEEN THE MAN'S MILITARY

14
         I   SERVICE AND MANY OF THE DOCTORS                                    DIDN'T UNDERSTAND
     II
15           THAT.       SO THERE WAS                     DISAGREEMENT.                AND       IF VARIOUS

16           DOCTORS AT THE V.A.,                           AND    WE HAVE 15,000 DOCTORS,

17           DISAGREED AND THE                        PROBLEM CASES             WERE REFERRED TO ME

18           FOR RES 0 L UTI 0 NAN D THE N ]                         0
                                                                    W U l. 0    REP 0 R T 'l' 0        THE

19           DEPARTMENT OF                  VETERANS          BENEFITS OR              VETERANS          APPEAL

20           BOARD WHAT             I    WOULD CONSIDER TO BE THE SOLUTION FOR

21           THE;   PROBLEM.                SO THAT'S THE ROLE                    I    PLAYED.           'rHAT'S

22           ONE PART.

23                    THE OTHER               WAS THE         PROBLEM OF ASBESTOS                       IN OUR

24           BUILDINGS.                 Wfi: DIS C 0 V ERE D T HA'ji MAN Y 0 F OUR H0 S PI '1' A 1J

25           Bur 1, n I NG S HA [)          A I.. 0 '1' 0 F' A H BE S T () SST Rue 'T U RA lJ 1J Y 11\1
                                                                                            i
                                             G.       Schepers           -    Direct


  1    PI,ACE AND WHgN THA'J' WAS                                 IDENTIFIED           1   ASSIS'rED Wr'rH A

  2    PRO G RAM TOG F. 'T' Ald., THO S E P IJ ACE SAN D SOU R C E SOft'

  3    A S B E S '1' 0 S   }t~ X   P 0 SUR E 'I' 0       T H f:    S T A F FAN D       P A'1' [ f.: NT S

  4    IDENTIFIED AND TO START A PROGRAM OF REMOVING ALL OF

  fi   THE ASBESTOS                     FROM THE HOSPITAL.

  6    Q.        DOCTOR,                IN THAT ROLE                DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO

  7    BECOMg FAMILIAR WITH THE U.S.                                          GOVERNMEWj' STANDARDS

  8    R~GARDING             ASBESTOS?

  9    A.        OH,       YES.           OSHA,          EPA,       ALL THOSE THINGS,                      AI.dJ

10     REGULATIONS THAT WE'RE TO COMPLY WITH.

11     Q.        DOCTOR,                OTHER THAN THE STUDIES AND

12     EPIDEMIOLOGICAL STUDIES YOU YOURSELF CONDUCTED,                                                             HAVE

13     YOU HAD OCCASION TO REVIEW                                    EPIDEMIOLOGICAL STUDIES

14     DONE BY OTHERS AND                             IN MEDICAl.. LITERATURt-:?

IS     A.        OH,       YES.           THERE ARE MANY SUCH STUDlES.                                      I'VE

16     READ QUITE A NUMBER OF THEM.

17                           MR.         M ceo NNE L 1. :            YOUR        HONOR,        I   WOULD AT

1 8    T HIS 'P I ME 0 F FER DR.                        S C H E PER S TOT HE CO U t( 'r A SAN

19     EX PER ']' I N ME D I C r N J:r;           t     T ND U S 'r RIA I,     Mr~ D I C I N E ,

20     EPIDEMIOLOGY,                    ASBESTOS-RELATED DISEASES,                                 PATHOLOGY,

21     FIBER       IDENTIFICATION AND

22                           THE COURT:                    JUs'r A MINU'rE

23                           MR.        Me     CONNELl.:             'I'OXICOLOGY.

24                           'T' H F:   C 0 U K 'I' :      ,rUS'T    A       MINUTI';'

25     ASBESTOS-RELATED DISEASES.                                        WH A'T' WAS       A ft' '1' ERA S B £0; S TO S
      Ii
                                                    G.         Schepers -          Direc~                         40



 1            RELATED         DISEASES?

 2                                 MR.       MC        CONNELL,:

 3                                 THE COURT:                        GO AHEAD.
      I:
 4                                 MR.       M ceo NNE L IJ :                FIBF.R    IDEN'l'IF'ICATION AND
      r
 5    II      A N A L Y SIS,       TOXICOLOGY,                       RESEARCH       AND     iNTERNAL
          I
 6    II
      I'
              MEDICINF:.
      II
 7    :1
      I,                           THE COUR'P:                       ANY OBJECTION?
      Ii
      Ii
 8    ,.
      I'                           MR.       SCHACH'PMAN:                    AS    1J 0 N GAS    I    H A V r;    'I' H F.
      I
 CJ           RIGHT TO CROSS-EXAMINE.
      Ii
10                                 TH}O::; COURT:                    YOU    ALWAYS     HAVE THE           RIGHT              '1'0

11            CROSS-EXAMINE.                        DO         YOU    HAVE AN OI1JEC'J'ION TO THE<:

12    !
              RIGHT OF            THIS       WTTNESS                 TO TESTfFY        TN     ALL     OF THOSE
      I
13    I   i   ARE A S     A SAN        EX P f: R 'P ?

14                                 MR.       SCHACHTMAN:                     NO.

15                                 THJ:o~    COUt<T:                 THE CO U R 'r WI L 1,      R E COG N I Z E THE

16            WITNESS         FOR THE               PURPOSE OF TESTIFYING                        AS    AN        EXPERT

17            IN   THE AREAS                THAT          YOU'VE           DESIGNATED.

18                                 YOU       MAY          PROCEED.

19                                 MR.       MC        CONNE I, I., :        THANK     YOU,      YOUR       HONOR.

20

21            BY MR.       MC      CONNELL:

22            Q.        DOC'I'OR,           CAN        YOU       TEId, THE         l.,ADIES     ANn    GENTIJEME:N

23            OF THE       JURY        ARE          YOU         BEING COMPENSATED                FOR      YOUR         TIME

24            HERE      TODAY?

25            A.        YI:~~S.      MY      lJ   S lJ A I.,    C H A R GEl S      $300     A N H 0 U R FOR 'I' H l'~
                                       (;.      Schepers                     -     DirF!ct,                   4:1



 1        TIME THAT         I   SPEND TALKING TO YOU.

 2        Q.      AND      HA V 8   YOU      B8   E N R E COG N I ZED                      B E FOR fo; A SAN

 3        EXPER'l'    IN THE AREAS                'l'HAT ,]'HIS COUR'l' HAS QUAL[FIED

 4        YOU   IN?

 5                          MR.     SCHACHTMAN:                          OBJEC'rION.               COURT HAS

 6        AI,READY RULED.

 7                          THE COURT:                  COUR'l' HAS                      RULED.

 8                          MR.     MC CONNEl.L:                         I   I   i. IJ   M0 V EON .    YOUR     HONOR.

 9        BY MR.      MC    CONNELL:

10        Q.      HAVE YOU 'rES'fIF'IED                      IN COURTS                     PREVIOUS TO TODAY?

11        A.      OH,      YES,     MANY TIMES.                          o V E R 1 0 0 TIM r~ S .

12        Q.      AND HAVE          YOU TESTIFIED USUALLY AS                                       A FACT

13        WITNESS       REGARDING            KNOWLEDGE THAT YOU HAVE OR HAVE

14        YOU TESTIFIED WITH REGARD TO                                                     AS AN EXPER'r

15        WITNESS       IN GIVING OPINIONS?

16                          MR.     SCHACHTMAN:                          OBJECTION TO THE FORM.

17                          THE COUR'r:                BASTS OF THE OBJECTION                                 IS

18        WHAT?

19                          MR.     SCHACHTMAN:                          TO THE            FORM,      YOUR HONOR.
     ;1
     I'
20   il   IT' S LEADING AND
     i;
     "


21   i                      THE COUR'1':               I'f     IS            I..EADING.
     'I
     L
     'I
22                          MR.     Mceo NNE IJ L. :                     I 'LL REP H R A S to; 1'1' .

23                          THE COUR'l':               GO AHEAIJ.

24        BY MR.      Me    CONNELL:

25        Q.      CAN YOU 'II E J, 1,        'J' H 1:i:IJ   AU I   fi;   S AND G to; NT l. E MEN OF 'r HE
      t;
      I:
      Ii
      I'                                                  (:r.    S   C':   h e per s   -   f)   ire C':   i.


      II
 1            ~T   U R Y 0 It'     '1' H E    '1' 1   ME S '1' H A'f YOU' Vt<~ HA U 0 C CAS .I 0 N                                'f' 0


 2            T E S 'I' I   It' YIN          C 0 U R T,          WHA'P T H }:o; SUB S '1' A N C I:'~ 0 F YOU R

              TESTIMONY HAS                           BEEN        FOCUSED ON AT VARIOUS                                       TIMES?

 4            A.            1'1'   DEPENDS ON THE: CASE AND                                       PI'      DEPENDS ON 'l'HE

 5            ISSUE.               VERY FREQUENTLY                               I'M ASKED TO COME TO A
      i.
 6            COURTROOM TO TALK ABOUT THE 'rK I NGS                                                        'rHA'I' HA P PENED IN
      I'
      i
      i
 7            THE UNITED STATES                                  IN THE           PAST,          THE SARANAC
      I
      I
 8            LABORATORY,                     THE PERSONALITIES                             [NVOLVED,                       PEOPLE LIKE

 9
      I       DR.       LANZA AND DR.                            GARDNER            BECAUSE THAT SEEMS TO BE

10            OF      INTEREST TO THE                             ATTORNEYS.                     AND SINCE                    I'M         FROM
          i
11            THAT HORIZON                       I     CAN SPEAK FIRSTHAND ABOUT THOSE

12     I      MATTERS.

13
      Ii                    AT 0 'r HER 'r I ME S 'I' HER E 's A D I AG NOS '{' I CPR 0 B L .~~ MAN D
      I
14            THE TISSUES OR THE CASE OR THE X-RAYS                                                                      HAVE BEEN

15            REFERRED TO ME                           FOR AN (}PINION AND                              I'VE EXPRESSED                             AN

16            OPINION OF THIS,                              THAT OR THE OTHER.                                     AN)) MY OP1NION

1 7 M AY BED IFF ERE NT FRO M T H A'I' 0 F 0 THE R DOC' [' 0 R SAN D THE N

18            I     GET ASKED TO COME '1'0 THE COURTROOM ANI) EXPLAIN WHY

19            I     MAKE A CERTAIN DIAGNOSIS OR HOLD A CERTAIN VIEW

20            ABOUT THE CASE WHICH MAY                                            BE DIFFERENT FROM THE

21            DIAGNOSIS OF THE VIEWS OF SOME OTHER DOCTORS.                                                                                  THEN

22            IN THAT CASE WE GET                                     INTO A WHOLE LOT OF MEDICAL

23            DETATIJS.

24            Q.            AND HAVE YOU                         HAD OCCAS[ON OR                        WHAT SIDES                        HAVE

25            YOU 'I' E S 'I' T FIE D,                 T H }<~    P iJ A [ N'I' r F r' 0 R '1' H},~             0 f.i:   F r: NSF;,       0 VE R
                                                (..       S    c h e per s              -    U   ire c r.                            43



  1         'I' HEY E; A R S      'r H A'r YOU' V F: 'r E S 'I' I FIE D ?

            A.

  3         DEFENSE SIDE TO THE 8XTEN'I' THA']'                                                   T    CAN        [DENTlfi'Y 'PHEM.

  4         SOMETIMES              I   DON'T KNOW WHO'S                                     WHO.          BU']' ] N THE

  5         EARLIEST                      1'0         SAY OF THE                            30    YEARS          THAT           I'VE BEEN

  6         I N V 0 I, V E D WI '1' H C 0 U R T ROO MEV IDE NeE - G I V I N G                                          r    F' IRS 'I'         TEN

 7          YEARS          I    WOULD     SAY         I       WAS          PRIMARILY CALLED 'l'O 'I'Hi'.:

  8         C0 U   R T SHY '1' H Ii: AT TOR N Ii: Y S                      F' 0 R       'P H E    D Ii: F' Ii: N S E   .

 9                    THEN        TN THE NEXT TEN YEARS                                           IT      BECAME A MIXTURE

10

11          DEFENSE ATTORNEYS.                                IN OTHER                      FIELDS          1    SEEM TO HE

12          MORE USEFUL TO PLAINTIFF'S ATTORNEYS.

13                    THE        PAST TEN             YEARS ON THE                               ISSU~          OF ASBESTOSIS

14          AND ASBESTOS                 DISEASES                     I    HAVE             BE8N CALLE)) ONLY                            BY

15          PLAINTIFFS'                ATTORNEYS.                          THE DEFENSE ATTORNEYS                                         KNOW

16          0 F'   MY E X I S 'I' ENe l<~   I    H U'I'              THE Y H AV E 0 THE R WI '[' N E SSE S THE Y

17                                SO '1'HAT ONIJY                         Pl,AINTJ Fft'S '               AT 'p 0 R. N E Y S         H AV        fi~



18          CAL I, E D MF; •

.19                   DOCTOR,            WHAT         SPECIFJCALLY                                          WH A'I'         S P F; C I   Ii'   TC

20          EXPERIMENTS                DID YOU CONDUCT AT                                        SARANAC               I,ABORATORIES
      IiI
21          AND     FOR         WHOM?
      I
22          A.        "(       MIS SED    PAR 'I' 0           1:0'    YOU R QU Ii; S T ION .

23          Q.        T'M        SORRY.

24                                THE COUR'I':                        REPEAT YOUR QUESTION.

25                                MR.     MC CONNELL:                               I       WILL,        YOUR              HONOR.
     Ii
                                           G.    Schepers -               Direct                        44


 1        BY MR.         MC       CONN~LL:


 ~        Q.             SAID WHAT SPECIFIC EXPERIMENTS                                  0]0    YOU

 3        CON 0 U eTA '1' SA RAN A C lJ ABO R A'1' 0 R I E SAN D A']' WHO S ERE QUE S T

 4        WERE '1' HEY CON D LJ C TED ?

          A.
      I
 6        Q.         WELL,         THE LABORATORY nIO WHILE YOU WERE THERE
      I
      I
     II OR
     !t
     Ii
 8   il
     Ii   A.         FROM 1954 WHEN               I    WAS THERE                I    DID STUDIES         FOR A

 9        COMPANY KNOWN AS OWENS-ILLINOIS CORPORATfON THAT HAD

lOA             PROD UC T C A IJ II F; 0    KAY I lOW H I C H T SMA NLJIt' AC '1' U RED HER E                I N

11        NEW JER SEY AT A PbACE CAldlEO                                Br~R    t,IN.

12        Q.         PI,ACE CAl,LED WHAT?

13        A•         BERLIN.

14        Q.         BERLIN?

15        A •        JUST OUTSIDE NEAR                  HERE.

16        Q.         YES,         SIR.

17        A.         AND THEIR           INTEREST                       OR.         GARDNER HAD DONE AN

18        ANIMAL EXPERIMENTATION                        SERIES            FOR THE COMPANY.

19        Q.         CAN      I    INTERRUPT YOU JUST ONE                            SECOND?      DID THE

20        OWENS-ILLINOIS                 PLANT        IN BERLIN                LATER    BECOME     KNOWN     BY

21        ANOTHER          NAME?

22        A.         THAT I         DON'T KNOW.                 I    STOPPED DEALfNG WITH THEM

23        IN      '58.

24        Q.         OKAY.          WAS 'I' HE    P [, A N'('       JJ ATE R    ']' A K F~ NOV E R BY

~5        ANOTHER COMPANY?
                                          G.       Schepers              -    Direc~                          45


  1        A.      THA'r's          CORR~~C'T'.          ['1'    WAS         A COMPANY CALLED OWENS

  2        CORNING FIBERGLAS                   CORPORATION TOOK                             IT OVER.

  3        Q.       r'M    SORRY,         DOCTOR.                I     INTERRUPTED YOU.                       PI,EASE

  4        CONTINUE.

  5        A.       WHEN       I    WAS   INVOLVRD               ]T WAS            RUN          BY A COMPANY

 6    II   CALLED OWENS-I1,LINOIS.                              AND THE            SARANAC             LABORATORY
       I
       i
  7        HAD    DONE A SERIES OF' MAJOR                              DUST        INHAl,AT] ON             STUDIES

 8         R Y MEA N S 0 FAN I MAt, S 'r H A'f 1I I VE DIN C AGE SIN TOW H I C H

 q         DUST THAT WAS ORIPATNED                         FROM THE                RERIJIN         FACTORY

10         THE DUST WAS COLLECTED                          TN        BARRELS              FROM VACUUM

11         C LEA N I N G Ir H E F ACT () R Y AND If HEN THO S E BAR R E L S 0 F 0 U S T

12         WERE    SENT UP TO THE                   LABORATORY AND THEN THEY WERE

13         PUT    TN AN        APPARATUS            AND         RESUSPENDED                     IN THE      AIR    SO

14         THE    A N I MA IJ S CO U 1., 0     B REA THE             I 'r 'I' 0    fi'   IN 0   0 U '(' WH E THE R

15         PEOPLE BREATHING                  IN THE BERLIN FACTORY WOULD GET A

16         DISEASE THAT COULD                      BE    PROVEN THROUGH THE ANIMALS.

17                 NOW,        DR.    GARDNER            STARTED THOSE!: STUIJIES                            IN 1944.

18         HE DIED        IN       '46.      UR.        WARBOW,              HIS         SUCCESSOR,          CAME       IN

19         '48,    CONTINUED THE                   STUDI~S,             GAVE!:           PARTIAL REPORTS                ON

20         IT.     IN     1954 WHEN            I    CAME,            THE OWENS-ILLINOIS

21         OFFICIALS           CAME TO SEE ME                   AND ASKED ME                      IF    I   COULD

22         FINALIZE THE THING AND WRITE A REPORT                                                 FOR THEM.

23                 NOW,        THAT WAS            MY    FIRST           INVOLVEMENT WITH AN

24         ASRES'POS-CQN'l'AINING                   PRODUC'r BECAUSE '}'HE                             KAYLO THA'l'

/.5        WAS    S'fUDIF.:n WAS          1S       PISRCEN'I'         C:HRYSO'rJIJfi~            ASI:IJ<:S'J'OS    AND
                                                      G.    schepers -           Direct                                     46



               85     PERCEN'f HYDROCAl,CIUM                        SlldCA,]'E WHICH                     1 S ANO'rHER

 ;),           MATERlAL NOT AsBESTOS.

               c.J.          WHO WAS         f '1'    WHO    PRO V rIlE 0      '[' H E    DU ST       '[' ()     US   r;    FOR

 4             YOUR          EXPERIMENTS?

               A.            'I'HA'I' WAS        'l'Hr; OWF:NS-II.I,INOIS                 CORPORATION.

                             AND DURING YOUR TIME AT                           SARANAC                            WE 101, ,

 7             FIRST,           DID YOU ARRIVE AT ANY CONCIJUSIONS?

 8     II      A.            A BOU'P THA ']' nu Sir?

 9             Q.            ABOUT THE               STUOY".
           I
           !
10     I       A.            YES.      THE UPSHOT OF ALL THE                              STUDIES                WAS        TO
       I
11             DIS CO V E R T HA'r B REA T H I N G 0                  }<'   KAY lJ 0      D U S 'I'   W() U L DCA USE

12             ASBESTOSIS.                   liP WOULD CAUSE EMPHYSEMA AND                                        IT W() U L 0

13             CAUSE          PROLIFERATION OF                   EPITHELIAL CELLS.                                FROM 'rHE

14             B RON CHI 0 JJ US,            WHIe H ARE          SMA l, 1, 'I' U B U IJ g SIN THE L U N G,                               I   'r

15             S '}' ART IS D MIG RAT IN GIN 'I' 0               'I' Hi!:   A IRS PAC E S .                    THOSE ARg

16             '1' H R E E    'r HI NG S     T   HAT THE 0 US 'I' C A LJ S F.: D •

17             Q.            AND    WERE THERE ANY                  RECOMMENDATIONS                            MADE AS             A

18             RESULT OF THE                     STUny?

19             A.            YES.       WE       ASKED THE COMPANY TO TAKE                                     EXTREME

20             PRECAUTIONS                 IN        THE FACTORY TO PREVENT EXPOSURE OF

21             THEIR          EMPLOYEES TO THE DUST.                             WE OFFERED THEM THE

22             SERVICES OF OUR                        ENGINEERJNG STAFF,                      WHO WERE                     EXPERTS

23             AT D US T           D WI' E R MIN A T TON S,         BE C A USE           WE H A 0        'J' 0    D ()     'T' H A 'I'


24             AId,     DAY LONG.                    SO EVERY QUARTER,                    ONE OR MORE                       O~     OUR

25                              0
               F; NGIN E E R S W U Tof) COM E DOW NAN D MEA SUR E THE D US 'I' AT
       II
       II                                                                                                                                  47
                                                                   G.    Schepers                  -     Direct
             I
  1              0 IF'   fI'   ERE N 'I' W0 R K :;; I'}' E S,                 'r ELI, T Hft; C () MPAN Y,                      AND '}' H J:i: N I        I   0

  2              WRITE A REPORT TO THE COMPANY                                                           SAYING DUST OVER                         HER~


  3              AND OVER THERE,                                   THE     LEVJ:i:LS         ARE           WITHIN THE              STATE OF

  4              NEW J E R S E Y COD E WH I C H WAS                                       F I V E MIL L ION                   PAR 'r I eLI': S P E: R

  5              CUBIC               FOOT.               WE GAVE THEM A OOUBLE COUNT.                                                WE GAVE

  6              '1' HEM           'I' 0 '1' A1.     CO U N '1' AN 0         ASK EDT HEM '1' 0                        S 'I' A Y 8 E LOW F' I V E

  7              MT L I, ION BE C A US £0: '1' HAT WAS                                 'l' H £0;       N F: W   ~I   E R S Ii; Y COD E .

  8                                WE      AI,SO GAVE THEM A F'IBER                                       COUN'.P AND            SAID        YOUR

  9              A S B EST 0 S               I')~:   V .lU,    J   S    B foa, 0 WON F.            M f IJ L rON         PAR '1' I C L ESP E R

10               CUBIC               FOOT OR                  FIBERS.           AND          IF         IT WAS            OVER     WE'D           SAY

11               THERE'S                   SOMETHING HAPPENING HERE,                                                 suP P R }<; SST H E D US,}'

J /.
       I
       I,        MORE              EFFECTIVEl,Y OVER                          HERJ:i:.                 WE WE OlD THAT ON                          A

1 .1   \1        QUAR'rERLY BASIS.                                      THEN WI';         TNS'I'JTU'rED AN X-RAY

14     I         SURVEILLANCE                            PROGRAM THROUGH                               WHICH          ALL THE        EMPLOYEES

15               OF THE COMPANY HAD                                      TO HAVE             AN ANNUAL X-RAY.                              THOSE
             I
       11
16     II        WHO WE R E .J U S T MAR GIN ALI. Y                                    TN V0 I .. V E 0              CO U L D DO     IT      EVE R Y
       Ii
17     II        TWO YEARS,                          BUT THE             PRIMARY             WORKERS                  HAD TO HAVE AN

18     :1        X-RAY               EVERY YEAR.                         THO SEX - RAY S WE RES EN'}' U P                                  'r 0   ME
             I
19               AND           I     I N'I' E R PRE 'r             'r HEM FOR 'r H E COM PAN Y ANn SEN T B AC K A

20               ,KEPORT TO THE MANAGER                                       HERE.

21               Q.                DURING YOUR TIME AT SARANAC                                                  LABORA'l'ORIES,

22               DOCTOR,                  DID YOU HAVE                      OCCAS~UN                    TO DIAGNOSE OR

23               IDENTIFY                    ANY CASES OF MESOTHELIOMA THAT CAME                                                           FROM

24               ANY SOURCE?
       Iii   I
                 A.                WEI,lJ,           T   MENT I ONEil           '1'0      YOU           rpHE;        FT RST CASF; THAT                  I:



       I
                                                  G.    schepers        -    Direct                            4B



                     WAS        FRO M 'l' H E B RON X V. A.             H0 S P [T AI J,          'r 11 A'I' WAS     1. 9 5 5 •
       I
      II
            GO'f'

                          THERE WERE ON                 FILE     AT THE LABORATORY TWO                            CAS~S.
 2    II
 .3   Ii    'I' H 0 S E    I    H A [)     T DEi: wr 1 F T g DIN    1950 WH IIJ E            1ST A R 'T F: D

 4     I    THERE.              ONE WAS THE              SECRETARY          TR~ASURER               OF THE

 5    II    QUEBEC             ASBES'/.'OS        MINING       ASSOCIATION.                  THE OTHER WAS
      II
 6          ANOTHER TYPE                               WHO HAD      RATHER MINIMAl, EXPOSURE.
      II                                                                                                               THF;
 7          BOTH OF THEM HAD MINIMAL EXPOSURg TO ASBESTOS.
      III
      II
 8          SECRETARY TREASURER,                           HE DIDN'T KNOW                   HE    HAD     BEEN
      I
 9          EXPOSED,              BUT ASBESTOS 'l'RAVEJJS                   ALI . OVER ']'HE BUIIJDING

10     I    SO      IT GOT TO HIM ALSO.                         AND ONLY WHEN WE                      ANALYZE THE

1J    I:    TISSUES THAT WE;                      FOUND HE DID HAVfi: CHRYSOTILE

12    r     ASBESTOS              IN HIS          LUNGS      AND THOSE ARE TWO MESOTHELIOMA

13          CASES.

14          Q.            DOCTOR,           DID     YOU DO ANY OTHER                 EXPERJMENTS                  AT

15          SA RAN A C LAB 0 R A 'I' 0 R Y UTI LIZ I N GSA M P L E S OF                             AS B E S '1' 0 S

16          OTHER THAN MATERIAL                          PROVIDED           BY OWENS-I1JLINOIS?

17          A.            YES.           T DID AN ACADEMIC STUDY TO PROBE THE

18          CAR C I NO G E N I C I 'I' Y 0)4' C H R Y SO '[' 1 L. E •           '(' H F;    BIG     ISS (J E [ N MY

19          MIND WAS              IS 'l'HI S SUBSTANCE CARCINOGF;NIC?                                     IN      O'rHl!~f(



20          WORDS,             DOES       IT HAVE A PROPERTY OF                       PRODUCING CANCER

21          BY      ITSELF WITHOUT ANYTHING                           ELSE?                AND              OR      IS

22          THE CANCERS THAT ARE REPORTED                                    [N THE MINERS                  AND

23          MILLERS             FROM UP THERE                IN QUEBEC AND                  IN DIFFERENT

24          F AC 'I' 0 R I E S"          ARE 'I' H 14; SEC 0 MP I J I C A ')' ION S 0 F A S B E S 'I' 0 S ( S

25          WHI CHI S '1' HE DIS E AS fi:                  A S Ii F: S 'r 0 SeA lJ S F:; DIN '1' HE lill 1\1 G S .
                                                               G.        ScheperR -                       Uirect                                    49



               Q.            OKAY.                 IJ ~ 'J'    M F;      MA K E       SUR E           I    UI\I D E R S 'I' A N I> •              SO           THE


  2            REAL          QUESTION                     WAS          IS     IT      THE            FIHER          THAT            ACTUALLY


  .3           C A USE S          if H 1<;       CAN (: F: R           () R    [S     I '1'     T H ft~    SeA R          'r 1 S    SUE          WHIe H


  4            C AU S E S         '{' H J:<:     CAN C E R ?


  5            A.            RIGH'l'.


  6                                            MR.        SCHACH'I'MAN:                         OBJECTION,                        YOUR           HONOR.


  7                                            DOC'l'OR           F;XPI,AINF,D                  AND        MR.          Me        CONNEIJt,                IS


  8            REPEA'l'ING.

  9                                            MR.        MC      CONNELIJ:                     I    HAVF.          A     R1GH'r.


10                                             T H F;     C 0 U H 'I' :          I ' L 1,       ALL 0 WIT                 F' 0 R         'r HE    PUR PO S ft;


11             OF    CLARIFICA'PTON.


12                                             MI<..      Me      CONNE[,)J:                    'PHANK           YOU,             SJR.

13                                             THE        COUH'r:               NO'l'HING                 fNAPPROPR.1 A'rE.                               GO


14             AHEAD.

15             BY    MR.          MC           CONNELL:


16             Q.            T'M         SORRY,                DOCTOR.                   YOU         WER~~          SAYIN(.;              AND       I


17             INTERRUPTED                         YOlI.               YOU      SAI D           THA '}'      YOUR               CONC ERN            A'l'        THE
       i;
       1;      TIME          WAS        TO         TDENTfFY                   WHETHER                IT      WAS          THE            FIBER            ITSELF
18     p

19
       !I
       ,
       'i
               OR    T H F:F I BROS I S                        C A U S ED           BY        THE         FIB E R         ~['   H A'I'    CAUS      1'~   U THE
       :1
       ~I      CANCER .?
20     'I
           i
2:1        I   A •           WE L L,            TOO 0             'l' H A 'r,       TO        U0     T H A '1'      EX PER f M F, N 'I',                  .l
           I
           I
       .1      DES I G NED                              ft' 0 IJ I, () WIN G        E X PEl<. I MEN 'I' •
22     I                                THE


23                           WE      KNEW               THAT           IF     THE        ANIMALS                 WERE             EXPOSED                 ~UR



24             o N 1, Y      SJ X       M 0 N 'I' H S          'I' 0    A     C 14: R '1' A :I N     DOS E          0 F         C H R Y S 0 'I'   r IJ E;       T H "'; Y


25             W() li T, D    NOT              S HOW          ASH F: S '" 0 SIS               -I N   '\' H F: I R       L, U N G S •
                                                    G.       Schepers                       -      nirec~                                        50


         A S B E S '1' 0 SIS           COM f<; S      :r N       '1' H 1:';    S 1<; CON lJ             0 R    THE       T H T ROY EAR


         AFTER          EXPOSURE.

 3       Q.         IN       ANIMALS                U~       HUMANS?

 4       A.          iN      ANIMALS                UP       THERE.                        IN      HUMAN            B.EnNGS             IT        'l'AKF~S



 5       MUCH       i.ONGER.                    AND        80       1         jlfi;S] GNEO                AN     EXPE~        IMfi:N'f'           1N


 6       WHIe H         I    W0 U L D           }o~ X PO 8 E        AN (M A L S                 'I' 0     SIX       M 0 WI' H S         () 1:"


 7       C H R Y S () T I IJ 1<;       A N lJ     T H J:o~ NAN 0 'I' H }<; R                SI X          M0   wr H S      0 F         E X P 0 SUR E


 8       TO     AN 0 THE R             SUB 8 TAN C E                CAL L}t~ n              BE R Y. LJ L I U M           S U L}<' A '(' J:i~ •

 9                  NOW,           WE      HAD        DONI':                               WE      W F~ REDO I N (7                EX P 8 R       r MEN 'I' S

10       A'r    THE         SAME:        TIME         WI'rH             HERYI..IJIUM                      SULFA'rE,                WHICH              IS      A


11       C HEM I CAL              SUB S '1' A N C E,             AND           I '['       ISH I G H l.'1             CAR C I NO G E N I C •


12       AND      WE        HAD        DONE         SO       MANY              EXPERIMEN'PS                         THA'l'         I    KNEW           WHA'f
     I

     I
13       THE      NUMBERS                WERE         THAT              GO         WITH            EXPOSURE                FOR          A        CERTAIN


14
     I
     !   DOSE.              IF     I     GAVE         ONE           MILLIGRAM                           PER      CUBIC             METER              OF

15       AIR      OF        BERYLLIUM                 SUl,FATi:'~                  I       KNEW           YOU       COUI.D             ANTICIPA'T'E:


16       SO     MAN Y        CAN C E R S            A'1'     A      C g R 'j' AT N              'r 1 M E: •         MY     HOPE             WAS        ']'0


17       SEE      I F       YOU        P U'T'     AS BE S '(,OS                1N A             SUB A S B E S '}' 0 SIS - FOR MIN G

18       LEVElJ         TOGETHER                  WI'I'H         BERYI.LIUM,                            WHETHER            'I'HE        COlJN'r


19       WOUbD          GO        UP     OR       DOWN.                 I F        I 'I'    W,.: WI'          UP,    'I' H 1<; N       YOU        W() lJ L D


20       K NOW      '1' H A 'I'    THE          C H R Y SO '1' I I. E              AND          'I' H E       BE R Y iJ L rUM           WE R E


21       ACTING             AS     CARCINOGENS.                                iN          OTHER              WORDS,          THEY               HELP


22       ONE      ANOTHER               TO        MAKE           MORE              CANCER.                     IF    TH~Y              WENT           DOWN,


23       THEN       THEY           WERE           HELPTN~                     --       THEY             WERE        ACTING              AS


24       AN'I'lCARCINOGENS.                                IN       OTHKK                  WORDS,              ONE       IS        ANTIDOTE                   TO


25       TH E     o'rHER.                AND        THAT            WAS            THE          DESIGN              O~     MY
                                                  G.     Schepers                       -   i);rp.ct.                           5 J



 1           EXPERIMENT.

 2                      SOl        HAn () N E          (~ R 0 U P       0 ft'      AN [ MA I d;';          ft~ X P 0 ~ ED    0 NLY     TO

 3           A S B E S '1' 0 S FOR S] X M 0 N '1' H SAN D 'r H ~ N NO 'I.' H I N l" •                                        ANO'l'HER

 4           EX P 0 S I:'; DON L Y 'r () B ft: R YL I. I UM                     fo' 0   R S I X M 0 NTH SAN D 'I' HEN

 5           NOTHING.              AN 0 'I' HER G R 0 UP EX P 0 SED 'r 0                                   AS B E ~ '1' 0 S fi' 0 R S I X

 6           MONTHS          AND THEN             BERYLLIUM FOR                             SIX MONTHS.                      AN(Yf'HER

 7           GROUP        EXPOSED TO BERYLLIUM                                     FIRST             AND THEN ASBESTOS

 8           FOR      SIX MOWfHS                ANI) THEN WAIT TO SEE WHA'[I HAPPENED.

 9           Q.         AND,       DOC TOR,            WHER F.          D l     n YOU              0 B'r   AI N    'ro HE

     I!
10   II      C H R Y SOT     I LET HA rr YOU               USE D ft' 0 R THE                         EX PER I ME WI' S ?

11   II
     II      A.
                        'rHAT CAME FROM CANADA.

12   i       COR PO RAT ION               PRO V I ]) E 0        I '1'   TOM E .

13
     I
     I       Q.         AND WAS THIS                   CHRYSOTfLE OR OR                                    WAS THIS MILLED
     I

14           ASBEs'roS?

15           A.         1 TWA S           M1 [ddt: U AS B E S '1' 0 S A SIT CAM r:                                 f"   ROM T H [<;

16   :1      ASBES'POS MILLS                   IN CANADA.

17
     :1
         I   Q.         AND WHEN             YOU       EXAMINED THE CANADIAN CHRYSOTILE
     'I
18   i
     II      ASBESTOS,             CAN YOU TELL THE LADIES AND GENTLEMEN OF

19           THE JURY WHAT                   DID THE ASBESTOS                                CONTAIN?

20           A.         THE ASBESTOS                   CONSISTED OF FIVE SUBSTANCES.                                                    ONE

21           WAS     ASBESTOS              FIBERS,              CHRYSOTILE ASBESTOS                                      FIBERS.

22           THEY WERE THE MAJORITY.                                      TWO,              THERE           WERE FIBERS                IN

23           'II H F. R 1:'; C A I, LED    '1' REM 0 IJ I 'T'   (t~ •     'I' H R E fC~,           'I' HER E    Wf'; REF I B E R S

24           CALLED ACTINOLITE.                            FOUR,                THERE WERE FIBERS CALLEU

25           A WI' HOP HY I, fJ I T E .          'I' Hfo: N ALL           THE S fi;          ft'   I B E R S Wfo~ R 1:'; (" L lJ E D
                                               G.      s~hepers              -    oire~~                               52


 1         TOGETHER             BY    AN AMORPHOUS                     MATRIX AMPHIBOLE,

  2        NON-CRYSTALLIN~,                     NONFIBROUS AMPHIBOLE MATERIAL.                                                  SO

           THE FIBERS OCCURRED                          IN BUNDLES.                     THft; MII,L.ING PROCESS

 4                       INN A T U RET H F; F' I B E R SOC CUR A S ROC KS,                                    S 0 IJ I     IJ


 5         THINGS.              AND THEY            BLASTED OUT OF THE                            KAkTH WITH
       I
 6    Ii DYNAMITE AND SCOOP8n UP WITH BIG BUIJIJDOZERS AND BIG
      II
 7    II
      I,
           BOULDERS             INTO A CKUSHER AND THE CRUSHER                                          SMASHES THE
      \f

 8     I   ROCKS          AND HAMMERS               COME          AND BEAT ON THE ROCKS                                UNTIL

 q         THE ROCK             IS    MUSH.

10                       THEN    THER~'S            A COMBING PROCESS                         AND A SUCTIONING

11    I,   PROCESS             AND A SIEVING                  PROCESS THAT GOES ON ALL BY

12         MACHINERY AND                  SLOW1JY AND                  PROGRESSIVfi~IoY               '['HE       PAR'rICLES

1.3        T HAT         ARE NONE" I      B R 0 U SIN             Ir HER 0       C KS   ARE       SO K 'r fi~ D    0   U'1' AN U

14         FALL THROUGH THE SIEVES                                 AND MATERIALS THAT ARE

15         FIBROUS             IS COMBED OUT AND THEN GOES TO VARIOUS

16         PROCESSES             AND      DIFF'l';RENT 1,EVEIJS OF REFINfi:MENT.

17                       WHEN THAT FIBER                 FINALLY REACHES ME,                              LIKE             IN

18         LABORATORY OR A PERSON                                 WHO       IS GOING TO MAKE                       FABRIC

19         0 R S 0 ME 'I' H I N G 0 lJ 'r       0 F'   T 'r   I    I   rr   ISS TTL IJ CON SIS T SOl:"

20         FIBERS             BOUND TOGETHER,                     THOUSANDS             OF FIBERS.                     WHAT

21         JJ 0 () K S    L   IKE A FIB ERe 0 N S I                scr S R J:o; A IJ L Y   0 F'    A '1' H0 USA N D             0   R

22         SO FTBERS.                 A b 1,   THO S E 0 'r HER              IN G RED lEN 'I' S T HA rJ'               I

23         MENTIONED             l.IKE 'PHE 'l'REMOI.I'['l!:                     AND AC'PINOLI'I'E AND

24         o THE R SAL L. STU C KIN THE REG L U EO '[' 0 GET H E k .                                           THA'r'S

25         HOW      ]T IS        IN    NATUR~.
                                                      (T.      Schepers                    -       Direct:                                              53


 1               NOW         f       0 N !'i;     Ii UN D 1, t';      0 F A T H 0 USA 1\1 D                         SUCH                  Eo' T B E R S I S


       TOTALLY               iNVISIHLE .                           IT IS         HAREIJY                  VIS        r BI,E               TO      AN

 .:S   o p'r I C A I.        M I C R 0 S COP 1<; •                    IT     HAS           'ro        B t';     A         V [o~ R Y         1. A R G [0;


 4     BUNDLE           WITH               2- OR            3,000            FIBERS                   IN        IT            YOU           CAN         S~E


 5     WITH      OPTICAL                        MICROSCOPE.                        BUT            THE           TRANSMISSION

 6     E i. E C T RON            M I C R 0 S COP E             f      0 F    CO U R S E,                  YOU             CAN             DIS SEC '1'             I 'f'

 7     APART.

 8               THAT                IS         HOW                    THAT              IS       WHAT              WE           HAD             TO     DEAL

 9                                                                                                'I'H I NG               '1'0       DO          BECAUSE

10     T HAT     I S         WHAT               AS BE S 'f 0 S         T SAN D                  'r H A if'    's          HOW             1'1"    SUS ED                  IN

:11

12     Q.        AND             DID            YOU        EVER        HAV~              OCCASION                         TO         MAKE             ANY

13     EVAIJUATION                     OR         r:STl MA']'ES              OF          WHAT             PERCfo~NTS                        Or'

I 4    C H R Y SOT I L g               F 1. B .-: R        WAS        0 THE R            'r HAN           A C '1' U A I.IJ Y                A

15     CHRYSOTILg                      FIBER,               SO        TO     SPEAK?

16     A.        MORE                THAN           TEN       PERCENT.                          l' H F:       QUA N T .I ']' I E S                    V A R lED

17     BY    I.,OCA'I'JON.

18               TNT H A '1'                    PAR 'J' J C U L A R          S 'I' U D Y          I       lJ S E J)           'I' H F:


19     JOHNS-MANVILLE                               MINES             FIBERS.                     B U If'       1 l<'         YOU          WE N'i'         50

20     M I I, E SAW A Y                T ()       AN 0 ']' HER         MIN E        f      YOU            MIG H T                F   OJ   ND      THE R r~

21     WOULD          BI':       A     DIFFEREN'J'                    MIX        Ofo'      FIBERS                   AND              SOME             HAVE

22     MORE      TREMOLITE                          THAN           OTHERS                AND          SOME                HAV~             MORE

23     ANTHOPHYLL,I'rE                           AND        SOMF~           HAVE           MORE               AC'l'TNOI,l'J'IL

24     Q.        f)   0 C T () R,               WH A 'f'    A R Eo:    'I' H E     F' [ 1:1 Ii; R         'f' Y P   ti~   S      WH T C H             H A V 1';


25     B E EN    USE D               COM M l<: R C .1 A lJ J, Y I N                f['   HIt;     lJ N    r fPfi~ I)          S 'T' A 'L' 8 S ?
                                                                 G.          Schepers -                         Oirec~




                A.         'PHIS              M[X'I'lJRF:                Of"          CHRYSOTTLE.                              T HIS       C 0 C K 'II A 1 I.           0 fe'


   2            FIB£O~R!-i       IS           ONIL               T H A ')' 's             U ~ f: DAB 0 U 'I'                   95    PER C E N '1'            0 P'


   3            ASREs'ros               USED               JN        'I'HE            UNITED                srrAT}t;S.               THE N            'r H £o~ REA R J:o:
        II
   4            QUA N TIT I E S                   0 F      AM 0      ~   I   'r fo:    'I' H A ']1    COM l'~ S           FRO M        SOU T H             A F RIC A
        II
   5            AND      C ROC I DOL. I T £0;                    A 1.. SOT HAT                       USE D        'r 0         COM E       (0'   ROM        SOU T H


   6            A 1" RICA.              THEY'VE                      ALL              BEEN           BANNED.                    rrHEy'VE                 BEEN
        II
            i
        II
   7    II      BANNElJ         "'OR              ABOUT              ),0        YEARS                NOW.
        II
   8                       AND          R fo~ C I:<: N '1'1, Y           AN '1' HOP H Y IJ L, 1 'P E                   HAS          BEE N           J NT ROD U C ED

   9            IN      SOUTH           AFRICA                   FROM                 BRAZIL                AND        YUANTITIES                        OF

l O A N '}' HOP H Y L L 1 '1' EAR E                                      US 1': URI G H '},                   HER 8            INN E W ,J E R S E Y •
            I




11
        II      Q.         AND      I         DOC'l'OR           I       WAS           Irl'       ACCEP'J'ED                   MEDICAl.               PRAC,]"TCE

12              DURING          ']'Hfi;           1950S              '}'O       DRAW              CONCLUS tONS                       F'ROM            ANIMAl)
        I
        I·
13      I'      EXPERIMEN'l'S?


14              A.         OH,          YES.                 THAT'S                    STANDARD                   METHODOLOGY


15              THROUGHOUT                        THE        WORLD.                      UNITED                 STATES               GOVERNMENT

16              SPENDS          ABOUT                   TWO          BILLION                      IJOLLARS               SUPPORTING                        THAT

17          I   'rYPE      OF      RF:SEARCH.                                IT' S            S'l~   ANDA RD             ME'PHODO (JOG Y •


18              Q.         rS      '1' HAT              T RUE            'r 0 DAY?

19              A.         YES.

20              Q.         DOCTOR:                      C()UI.,1J            YOU                            AND        I £0'    1T   's          H F. 1, P F' II I, ,


21              P [) E A S E    FE      fo~   L     F R J:i: E       '1' 0      S 'I' r; p        U 0 WN        'r 0     THE         PAIl          HER J:i: •


2 ).                       CO U L D               Y () U     EX P I, A I N               TOT H E                LAD I E SAN D                      G E N T 1J F: M £0: N


). .3           0 fo'   THE     J UR Y              HOW          I'll        I S      T H A 'P        }<'   I B }<~ R S,        AS B E!-i 'r 0 S           FIB E R S ,

24              CAN      C A lJ S E           M 1:': S 0'[1 HEll T OM A'?


25              A.         T    B F..: '1' 'r E f<         (: 0 M}t:         'flO     'TI H to;      BOA RD.                   MAY     I         DO     'I' H A '1'?
                                                                      G.            :->cheper!':                 -    Direct".                                   55


  1                                             'I' H J't~      C 0 U R 'I' :                 Y }<; S,        YOU         MAY.

             A.           WHAT                  I'VE                 DRAWN                  FOR        YOU           IS      A    SCHEMATIC                    OF      THE

  3          AIRWAY          I       BIG               WINDPIPE                             HERE            CALLED               THE     TRACHEAl                    THE

  4          B R () N CHI        I       T H A '}'              W0 U I, D             BE']' H £0;             BIG         TUB E S,            T R A C H U SSP L I 'I' S

  5          INTO         'I'WO          AND                 THIS               IS          CALL!:':D           'PHE;        1<ESPIRA'l'ORY                    'l'RAC']'.

  6          A    L U N (~       C0      ]\.I   SIS 'I.' S            0   }<'       'I' W0        ')' ISS U Ii: S,           'Ii HER ESP 1 R A 'r 0 R Y


  7          T R A C 'P      AND                A      PAR ENe H Y MA,                                WHIe H          I. S       0 F A D 1 fo'          «' ERE N 'T'      KIN D

  8          OF       TISSUE                    AND             THE             PARENCHYMA                           STARTS            WITH             THAT

  9    I                                 SEE            I       l'    V}t~          DR AWN             A      1J I T'1' L J:!:    DO If 'n; [)          IJ I N E •        AND


10     I     ALL       THIS              SITS                   ]NSIDE                      OF        THE       LUNG.               l,IKE          SO.


11     I                  NOW        I          I'VE                 DRAWN                  THIS            VERY          LARGE.                 1 'r     IS
       I                                                                                               1'1"     S     SO         SMAIJJ,         YOU        CAN'T          SEE
J 2          THOUSAND                    TIMES                       SMAIJLER.

13           IT,       BUT           I'VE                    DRAWN                  ['I.'     FOR           EXAMPLE               SAKE.

14     Ij                 THE S E                   1, I 'IorrI, E              BUB B L E S                 ARE       C A {,IJ F. D      T H }<:        A LV EO 11 1 .

15     Ii
       ,I
       Ii
             THE Y , R E             NOT               PAR T              0 F         '1' HER ESP I RAT 0 R Y                          '1' RAe 'I.' •          WH £0; N    'r H E

16
       Iil
       i     BABY         GROWS                     INSIDE                      THJ:t;        MO'l'HF:R              'I'HIS       TUBULAR                 SYSTfo;M

       ii
       !I                                                                                         'l'Hfo~                                        (~ROWS
17           GOES         F'ROM                 A      j)    IMPLF:                 AND                       NECK           AND       1'1'                      IN'l'O
       U
18     i'    'rHi'~    BODY              AND                 1'['     MAKES                   A       SYS'l'EM            OF'     'l'UBUIJr;S             UP    TO
       !
19     I
       !
20                        AND            THEN                  JUST                 BEFORE                  BIRTH            THIS        TISSUE                INTO
       'I
       "

       rl
21           WHICH           IT          HAS                 GROWN                  BUBBLES                   UP      AND         THESE            LITTLE

22           BUBBLES                 APPEAR                          IN         A     TISSUE                  THAT           IS     CALLED

2 .~         MESENCHYME.                                     I 't'   's         C A i, LED             EM B R YON A [, •                 E:MHRYO,


24           MESENCHYME.                                     JUS T              AS          T H £0:    BA8 Y          'r A K E: S      'II H E     FIR S T


25           HKE:A'I'H,              'l'HE:           'l'WO           rpUBUIJF~                   SYS'l'J:t:MS            CONNEC'I'              OU'I'     'PHROUGH             A
       II
           I
                                                                 G.         SchApers               -      UirAct                                              56


           I
  1            SY S   T 1": M    0 F'            U C '1'    K NOW N            A SAt, V .1': 0 TJ A R                 D U (:'1 1 S •              '['Hfi:N
           I                                t)



               LAST         PARer           OF'       THfi~        'IIUBUl.,E          HE:RJ:o;        IS        CAI,l,E:D                  'l'HE
       11
       II
  3            RESPIRATORY                         BRONCHIOLE.                            THAT            SOUNDS                    V~RY
           I
  4            COMPi,ICA'rED,                         Bll'!'        IT'S          VJo;RY          IMPOR'fAN'I'                      TO          UNDERSTAND


  5            THAT.

  6        I                NOW,            OVER            THE             SURFACE               OF      THE             LUNG              J 'VE         DRAWN

       'I
           I
  7    II      'f HIS       SIN G L E L I N E ,                       BU'l1       [T' S           ACTUALLY                      A          DOUBLE             LINE.


  8    II                   CON'I'T NUl":                  ] TAG A I N               1.1 K E       SO.                THAT                 IS     THE         PLEURA.


  9            AND      THE        Pl,EURA                  HAS             THESE         'l'WO        LAY.I':RS.                          'fHE      OUII'ER


10         !   LAY E R          I s e A IdJ E j)                 T H 1:<;     PAR 1 ETA 1,             P I, E U R A             AN 0            'f H E    INN E R
       Ii
       I
11     b       I, A Y g R       1 s e A I, i, E nTH E                        VI S    c: ERA L          P L E lJ R A         I       B U ']'       rr H F~ Y ,    RE
       i,1

12     I       REA L JJ YON E •                       A 1, IJ      A N I MA I, S          t<; X C E P '1' I N (;           r~   I I E P HAN 'f SAN [)


13     I       WHALES            HAVE              THIS.


14                          NOW,            IF        WE         MAGNIFY               SAY         THAT               PORTION,                       THOSE               TWO

15             IJ AYE R S        VERY              I.. A R G E,             Ir HEN     YOU' L L             F [N D              T H A ']'         IT      HAS            T HIS


16                                                 THERE'S                   ELASTfC               LAMINA                  AT              THE       END.                YOU


17             HAVE         THE         BUBBLES                    COMING              UP         TO      THERE,                    ALVEOLI,                     AND

18             THE Y        ARE         SUR ROll N D £:0; D                  BY      WH A 'e        I S     L EFT               0   J:o~    'P H E

1 CJ           M ESE N C H Y M A I,                'T' ISS U .r~            WHIe H        J S      JUS T              A    S Y S Ir .r~ M e)}:t'             .I, I 'f 'I' I, t<:


/. 0           eEL L SAN D                  1, I '[' T I., 14;     ,I ELI J Y        l, T K 1<:    M A 'f E R I A I, •


21                          THEN            THERE'S                   THIS           LIMITING                    MEMBRANE.                               NOW           'PHAIJ'


22             IS     DRAWN             FAT           HERE             IN      MY      DRAWING,                       BUT           IT          IS       VERY


2.i            'l'HIN.            (T    t   S      lJ N    r MAG I          NAB IJ EO, Y          T HI N •                D IFF I C UL'r                  'PO          S E F~


/,4            WITH         AN     ORDINARY                        MICROSCOPE.                            f'Il        HAS           'l'HF;        SAME


25             PRO PER 'I' I E S                 AS        ACt-: J dA> P HAN              t:i~    WRAP P         ~;   R    'l' HAT              YOU       G 1:'; 'l~
                                                                   G.        ScheperR                         -     Direct                                                57


    1        AR0 UN             l)    'P H J N G ~           1N       Y 0 II R         G ROC E R Y                  B A (7 •            I'I'S              PURPOSft;               IS


    2        TU             PRkVENT                 THE           Alk        FROM               LKAKING                     OUT         OF            THE            LUNG

             BEe A U S 8                   'I' H A '}'    I S      CON N E C 'I' g D                  0 U 'I' SID r:             O}4'        'I' Hit;        B0 UY •               AND


    4        1'1' S          S to; CON D             PUR PO S f<:            t S       'I' ()      R Ii: G U JJ A 'I' E          '1' H 14;         F 1,0 W 0 F                 WATE R


    5        OUT             0 F'     THE            L U N (7      '1' 0     KEEP               '[' H I'~     I. lJ 1\1 G     \) R Y .


    6   II   Be:            ABLE           'ro      'I'ALK         'PO       YOU           IF         MY          LUNG           W;;RE                WE'I';           RECAUS>:

    7    : ONl/Y WAY                          I     CAN           TAI.,K        '1'0       YOU              IS     HY         DRAWING                        AIR          IN'I'O        MY
         i

    B        I. UN G           AND            B LOW] N G              ITO U T                   T H R 0 UGH                 MY        V 0 I C r: BOX,                     AND         TU


    9        DO             THAT           THE           LUNG         HAS          TO           BE          DRY.


10                             T H F:         J M PO R 'j' AN CEO F                        SAY I N G               T H A 'r           I S          'I' HAT           A IJ I.     THE


11           B I. 0 0 D              0 F      ']' H E     BOD Y            AS      I   I   M       S 'I' AND 1 N G               HER         r~,           A L I.,     MY        B IJ U U D


12           IS             PUMPING                 THROUGH                  MY        LUNGS                 ATJj.          'I'HE       TIMr:.                       MY

13           HEART'S                       BEATING                 AND          UNE-HALF                          THE         BLOOD                  GOES              TO        MY


14                                                                 'I' H E      0 rI' HER             HAL. F          GO E S            '/' 0        r,' H R         J, UN G S •


15      Ii   'f HEN            'r HEY             W ILL           C IRe LEA R 0 U N D                             COM to:        B A C K}t' ROM                        '1' H g     H J:o~ A D
        I:
16      II   AND             IJ 1:0; G S      l WI.' ()     If H E         1. UN G S •                T H fi:      L U NG             1. S         T () T A 1. 1, Y            WIT H
        II

\7      Ii
        !j
             Al.,L           THE           l"lJUID           IN       THE          LUNG.                     HU'l'          'I'Hfi~     lJUNG                1 S       SO


18      II
        q    A R RAN G F~ D,                      'I' H g S 1<:    B IJ B B 1J E S,                '1' H F; Y , R F:          DRY            SOT H E                   GAS


19      II   EXCHANGE                         WOULD               TAKE          PLACE.                       VERY             IMPORTANT                              FUNCTION.
        II
20
        II
        i'
                               THArr              IS      ACCOMPLISHE:n                               BY          'PHIS          MEMBRANE.                                THAT'S


21
        I    ITS            JOB.                  AND       'l'HE          WAY         I'I'        DOES            '[,HA'r            I S          r 'I'     HAS          0N      I 'r s


22           SURFACE                       HERE           ON       THIS            SlOE               A      SET            OF        CELLS.


23           THEM              AS          LITTLE                 CURES,               BUT            IN          NATURE                THEY                 ARE


24           ORDINARILY                             KIND           OF        FLAT.                    AND          t<; A C H          () N   t'~     () F      rf HEM            HAS       A


2   ~        S   ~:   'J'   0 1'"     'I' H   rNGS          SOP I C K T N G                () U '['         fi' ROM         'r H E    J R          S {/ R FA C fi;             K NOW N
                                                                                                                                                                   58



  1                                        I. I K fo:     MY       HAN D •               S to: F;?                ASSUMfo~                'PHIS             1 S       'T'H r.;


  :;,         CELL.,            AND            'I'HESf;         ARE          ,}'Hr~      V{[Jllf,                 MY         F1NGfi:RS,                     Sfi;H:?
         1

  3     II
        !,
                            o P P 0 SIT E 'I' HEM                          r SAN 0 'I' HER                     S E 'f'       0 F     C E 1..     j.   S     1" K 0 M 'f HIS

  4     II    1,A Y ER .                  YOU       S E E'~     T H A'T'      's       'J' H I SIJ AYE fo(,                    V I S C r;R A I,                  P L 1'; U R A •
        II
  5     Ii    NOW,          WE' REA T                     'I' HE         PAR I E '1' A I,           P LEU R A                AND          I']'        'I' () 0
        III
        I
        Ii    CON S J 8 T 8                0 F     'I' H E: SEC U B 0 I D A I,                      C E IJ L SAN D                   THE: Y               TOO         HAV E
  6     II
        jI
        d
  7           FINGERS                     STICKING                 OUT             LIKE          SO         AND          THEy'RE                      TWO          CELLS.
        II
  8           FINGERS                     00     THIS,             H OIJ 0           HAN IJ S •                AND           THE          REASON                   FOR

  q           T HAT         1S            SO     '1' H A'1'     T H F:       V I seE R A I,                 Pt. E U R ARE M A INS                                AT 'l' A C H r: D


10            'I' 0    T H r:        PAR lET A I ,              P I, E 11 R A •               80 WHEN                    I    MAKE               MY CHEST

1 :1          L ARGE R               BY        B REA '1' H I N GIN,                      I '}'      W I 1,].,       P U L 1J         T H 1:0;         JJ U N G        A f<' 'I' f<~ R


12            I'}' .        A I, IJ 0 W THE                   D TAP H RAG M                   - -        T'P      W L I. L         P U L 10           T H £0;      1, LJ N G

1 3           DOW N         R E C A U S fo~             THE        '1' W0          H 0 IJ D      TOG}i~ '1' HER,                   YOU           SEE?


14                          BU'"           THE          CYPHER             REASON                FOR           DOING               ['I'       ]1'1        THAT

15            COMPLICATED                          WAY          WITH               ALL        THESE               FINGERS                     IS          TO       MAKE

16            THE        fJARGE                SURFACE                   AREA          SO        'I'HA'1'         FIJUIDS                 CAN             GO       F'ROM


17            THERE             TO         HERE.                SOT H E                FLU I D              'I'R A NSF' E R               1:<' U NeT        TON          0   r'

1 8           'f H E     L UNG             GO E S         'I' H A 'I i     WAY.


19                          1<' I, U I D         COM T N G               FRO M         THE          B LaO DCA P ILL A R I E S                                      WH I C H


20            ARE        HER         F~    I N     B f!; '1' WF; F: NTH E                                   I N     '[' HEW A L 1J 8                      0 F      'I' H E S }t;


21            A LV EO}, I ,                A     1. I   'r 'I' IJ !'; B I    ']1     WI I, JJ       LEA K           0 U 'I' .             I'l' , S


22            IMMEDIATELY                          CARRIEU                   BY        THESE                CELLS             DRAWN                   OVER            HER~


2 .1          AND        'r RAN S F' £I~ R R E J)               'J' ()     T HIS         S J D 1<:          AND          0N        'I' HEft' A R                 S1UE             1S


),4           A       SYS1'F:M             01"     CAI'liAI,S.                     AND        'f' H A 'l'      S Y S II' 14; M 0 fi'             CAN A I, S              RAN (; f:i:

2.5           A L IJ     'l' H £I;        WAY       DOW N          'Ii H R 0 lJ G H           '[' HI':      D I: A t> H R A (~M           I      'I' HIS           H to; I< £I: ,
                                                                       G.         Schepers                   -      llirect                                            59


  1             RIG         MlJSCLE,                  ANI)             T'I"S           A'r'I'ACHft:O                '1'0       'I'Hf<;    CHF:Srp              WALl,             ON


   ).           T H fo~     1 N SID to;             AND             'I' 0    THE          0 I A P H RAG M 0 N                       '(' H E () P P 0 S 1 'I' r.:                 SID E

  .i            0   [0'   T H [0-:: R E •

  4             Q.             fo;XCUSE               MI!:,            DOCTOR.                      rS       'PHA'I'           MAR KING              Al,I,             R TGH'r


  5             0 R       S H A IJ 1,       T       G E 'r          Y 0 lJ        A NO 'r HI'; RON E ?


  6             A.             HMM?

  7             Q.             WAS          'rHA'1'           PEN            MARKING                    AfJl,       RIGHT?


  8             A.             1 'I'      W) ttl,        FUN C T ION •                           I']"    S       JUS'['          G8'rTING                 A      Id'I"l'LE


  9             DRY.             NOW,               THIS               IS         HOW                        THIS              IS        THE       PLACE                 WHERE


10      I       'l'HE       DISEASE                   --               YOU .1<.        QUE S '1' ION                (S         HOW        DOf<;S


11      I
        Ii      ME S 0 'I' H E 101 () MAG ,,; T                             C A USE D ?                  THIS               [S      WH Eo: R r:       I   'r     I S


12      It      CAUS.f!;O.

        I
13                             TT        COM E S              ". ROM              'I' HE SEC ELL S                       0 R     '1' H 0 SEC ELL S •                             AND


14              IT        COMES             THROUGH                         THE        FACT             THAT             ASBESTOS                  FIBERS                   ARE

15              B R f:o~ A THE DIN                    I. £"         '[' H £0; Y     ARE          TN      'I' HE          EN V I RON M:Eo: N'I'                 A JJ I,      THE

16              WAY         THROUGH                   TH~             LUNG             AND         SOME             WIGL            REACH            THESE

1 7             FUR T H I'.; R M0::; 'r               A I, V F; 0 l,r               'r H A fro     S] T          UP        A G A INS T             'I' H E       ft~   LAS T J C


18              LAMINA.

19                            AT         FIR S T              'I' HEY             WI 1, L,       au::; 'r        B to;     0 N      'I' HIS        SID E               AND


20              T H I'.; Y , lJ 1,       B F~       S '1' 0 P P ED                BY     'r H EEL A S 'r I C                     IJ A MIN A .                  BUT


21                                                    HECAUS}<;                     'I'HI':      I,lJNG          [S        CON S TAN '1'1., Y                  M0 V ] N GAS


22              I'M         TALKING,                    AS            MY          HEART            IS        BEATfNG,                    A l, I.     'I' H T S


2 .i            WRIG G I.r N GAR 0 lJ )'oJ                          j),      AND         B to:; C A USE            0 F         THJ S         R A Ll TAN T                () F'


24              F 1,0 W 0 F              FLU I D              }<'   ROM           'r HIS         I.. A Y F; R      'I' 0       'r H A '1';     AS B E S 'r () s
            I
2 5     'I
        "       FIB E R S              W 1 1.. L,     BE            U RAW N            A C R 0 S!:)          AND           T H f<: 'i    W I I. I,        THE N             L 0 DG E
      Ii
                                                           (T.      Sc:hp.pp.rs                         -    Direct".                                            60




  2        'rHEY          GO       RIGH'I'         'I'HROUGH.                           'I' H 1': yeA N            (; 0          {J   IKE;        AN          A R ROW.
      Ii
      il S H 0 0 TAN
      I                                A j{ ROW'}, H R 0 U G .H                     A       'I' H I N        M E M BRA N F:                 AND            I T      W ILL


  4   I    BE        ON       THF;       F'AR      SIDE.

                          NOW,           ASBES'T'OS                 HAS             '''HlS              UNIQUF;             PROPE;RTY                        COMPARED


  6        TOO 'r HER                  T Y PES            0 FHA R M F U I J                        'I' H I N G S   'I' H A 'I'          T '1'     ISH ARM F U L


  7        B U'I'     I 'I'      I S     N OCr'    '1' 0 X J C •               [        KNOW                THAT     THAT                   IS         CONFUSING


  8        FOR        YOU          TO      UNDERSTAND.                                  BUT             'I' 0 X JeT T Y               I S       BAS ED              0 NTH E

  q        ABILITY                 OF      A      MATERIAL                     TO           BE          DISSOLVED                      IN        THE             BODY

10         AND        THEN             WHEN        JT          IS       DISSOI,VE:D                          IT    CAN                COMBINE


11         C H .I!: M I C A I, L Y         WIT H           SUB S 'I' A NeE S I N                             YOU R         BOD Y                'I' 1 S SUE S .
      I!
12         ASBESTOS                    DOES        NOT             no      THAT.                        IT    STAYS                   ASBESTOS.                           AND
      Ii
      Ii   A    FIBER              BREA'l'HI-;O                IN       'l'ODAY                    CAN       BE    TN            THE            {,UNG            OR       IN
      II
14    I!
      I!
           THE        PlrEURA              50      Y      r~AR S                                        1'1' ' S

15         FIBER.

1 h                       THE          AS B E S '1' 0::;           W0 R K S             H ARM F U IJ I. Y            BY               J TS       'r HI N N Eo; S S

17         AND        THE          FACT           THAT             IT      HAS              A        DIFFEREN'PIAIJ                             E.LEC'f'RICAl,


18         CHARG~                ON      ITS       SURFACE                    AS            COMPARED                 TO               ITS         ENDS.


19                        AND          THOSE              OF       YOU        WHO                  HAVE       BEEN               TO         SCHOOL                 WILL


20         KNOW           IF       YOU         HAVE            A    SYSTEM                         IN       WHICH          THE              POLARITY                      IS

21         NEGATIVE                    OVER        HERE             AND             THE              POLARITY                    IS         POSITIVE                      OVER


22         HER E          YOU          HA V E      to' 1.0 W 0 F'             r; L Ii: err RIC                CUR R E N'I' S .                         SO


23         F~J.EC'T'RJC                CURREN'P                1'i'J.,OWS           Al.,ONG                 THE    SURFAC",;                     OF          IH,ECTRJC


24                        0 f'     ASH fc~ S '1' 0 S           1" I B f.;t~ S           A I'J /)        THO S F:     r~ I,       F.: C T t< ICC U R R E N '\' S

25         C A 1\1    M A K 1:';       C HAN G     1:<:   SIN           'l' H fo;       C   1:<:   IJ 1, SAN [}       I.   '1'        HAS        'j'   H J:i;Eo~ ft' ft' J:i: C 'I'
                                                         G.         Schepers                     -      Direct                                         hl



 1          ON    C 8 I. IJ S    0 F       '1' H £0:     BOD Y          TOM A K E                    THE M M lJ 1.. '1' 1 P I. Y .                     J'l'


 2          DOE S N 'T          K] IJ IJ       THE M .                 OTHER             TOXIC                  'PHING          LIKE            SILICA,

            B E R Y I. I I I U M W I 1., IJ            K I I, L        THE        C fo; 1. L S •                THIS        ONE            MAKES              THEM


 4                                     I '1'      G fc; 'P S        r N 'I' 0     F T B E R SHE REI T                               MA K E S           FIB R 0 U S


            TISSUE            AND      SCAR              T]SSUE.                      IF'        I'l'     GETS             INTO            THE

 6          F; PIT H foa. I U M HER fo:                  1'1'       WI 1.. IJ     MA K E             'l' HEM       M U I. '1' I f-' IJ Y        AND           GET          A

 7          CANCER.              1F        1'1'        GE'l'S          I N'l'O        'I'H fi;       M t:o; SO'I'H Eld UM                  TH ER E            YOU


 8          CAN        GET      MESOTHELLUMA.                                   T H A '1'   's          HOW        1 'f'   's       J) 0 N E .

 9          Q.          AND,        DOCTOR               r      CAN         YOU          r~XP1JAIN                 HOW          A        MESOTHfo;[d.OMA


10          I NTH E           PER ITO N to: U MeA N                         0 C CUR?

11          A.          ONE      EX P LAN A T 1 0 N                     FOR           T H A 'r,           'I' H A'P    's       NO 'r        REA I. [, Y


12          B F: E N    W0 R K F; D        0 U '}'       SCI: EN 'I' I F' 1 CAL L Y •                            OTHER              THAN          THAT            YOU

13          H A VET H E          SAM E            S Y S 'I' \:0; M HER EON                           'r H r-:    D I A P H RAG MAN DIN


14          THE        DIAPHRAGM                  YOU           HAVE            ONE         WAY            PORES.                   THEY'RE!;


15          CALLED            PORES            O~       ASHER.                    CAL LED                 BY       A       PAT H 0 LOG I S 'J'


16   Ii     CA.LLED           ASHER            100           YEARS              AGO.                 II' H fi: Y , R E      ON fo:         WAY.               AND
     'I
17          FLUID        WHICH             REACHES                     THEM           WILL              GO       DOWN           INTO           THE
       1
     :1'1
18          ABDOMINAL               CAVJIJ'Y                 11'0      BE       ABSORBED                        BACK        IN'J'O           I.YMPHATIC
     II
     ,I
19   Ii     SYSTEM        r     COME           BACK             TO      THE           LUNGS               TO       CONSERVE                    WATER.
     i!
     i!
20   !l                 THE      THEORY                  IS         THAT          THAT               IS         HOW        ASBESTOS                    FIBERS
     :1
21          CAN        GET      INTO           THE           PERITONEAL                          SURFACE                   WHERE             THERE'S                   A
     II
22          SlMII,AR            CEL1J                           '1'0    THfS.


23   I
     i                  THE      OTHER                 IS       THAT            f'r     WILL,             COME             THROUGH                THF.SE


24          LYMPHATICS                 ON         I(,HE';       OWl'Sl DE               HERF<~.                  [) () N ''I'       t{   E A l, [, Y    K NOW .


25          Q.          AND,        DOCJ'o/ot,                  IS      'T'Hti:R~           ANY           SfGNIF1CANCF:                           'PO         'PHi';
                                                           G.           schepers                    -       IJirer.t.



  J    S I Z'. E      AN f)      S   HAP E               0 F'        'I' H F:      PAR 'I' leU LA R                     Il 1t:" fi' fo: f<fo: N 'I'    A S IH: s '[,OS


       FIB E R S             YO lJ   I   V 1<:      fJ ft: S C R L H f!aJ               1N       '[' HE        C A USA           rr I   01\1     0 F


       M F: S 0 'I' H E IJ 10M A ?

  4    A.             '1' H F:   SMA 1.1.. F:R                  '(' H 14: Y        ARE         ']' HEM 0 I< E                 L. T K E J, Y           T H F. yeA N


       G.I:o:'j'    IN'rO        CELl,S.

       Q.             IN THE                 PL~URA                    OR          PkRJTONEUM?

  7                   Bo'rH          PLACI<:S.                          YOU            THINK            (      COULIJ               V[SIT THE

  8    BATHROOM?

  9                                  MR.            Me          C:ONNEIJl.:                      GOOD TIME                          FOR          A BREAK.

10                                   THE           COURT:                          ygS.            OUR             USUAL                BREAK TIME.

11                                       ( .J U R Y             :r: x c {] S F. D       •        R E C E SSG RAN T r: D )

12                                                                   (0     PEN         C 0 U R Ir      )

13

14     DIRECT EXAMINATION                                               (CONTINUED)



16     Q.             [) 0   C TOt{      I       1 1<'     .I        C0     [j   Ld)    IMP () S E             U P0       N YOU           ,eo U L D YOU

17     COM «~         HAC K DOW NAN [J                                 E: X P I, A IN']' 0                  'J' H ..:     I. A lJ T F: SAN D

18     GENTLEMEN OF THE 01JRY                                                      THE        DIFFERENT ASBESTOS                                               F1BERS

19     AS          YOU       HAVE OBSERVF;D THEM UNDER                                                            VARIOUS                      ft'ORMS          Oft'


20     MAGNIFICATION AND THEIR                                                          SJGNIFICANCE OF THEIR                                                   SHAPE

21     AND          S I Z E 'I' 0            T H r:       D EVE 1, 0 P MEN ']' 0 1"                            DIS E A S E S                   r N HUM A N S ?

22     A.             AId,       RIGHT.                         WR      I   L I.       S TAR T          WI']' Ii          C HR Y S 0           'r I IJ E   •         FIRST

23     1     S H 0 U 1,))        POI N ']'               0 WI'         'I' HAT          '}' HER EAR F; TWO lJ S 1<; S                                  FOR           THE

:),4   WORD           "CHRYS()'['.lI,f<:.                       II          THERE'S CHRYSOTTLE WHICH                                                           IS          THE

       T H 1':      PRO D U c: ']'           C H R Y S () 'I' I I, r~              .        C () M to; S       -, 1\1     A     H () X         ANn         c 0 IVI   fo~   S
                                                           (;.    sch       F'   per            R       -     ')   ire c      t"




    1         FRO M       'T' HE       fi' ACT 0 R Y        AN))          'r H}t~ y e A Id.                        I'"     C H R Y SO 'r T l, fi; •


    2                     T      'I' H 1 N K     S () M F. HOD Y            MAD 1':                 A       MIS 'I.' A K E           AND         I 'I'    WAS


    3         SUP P 0 SED              TO       HAVE         B E }t:; N     "c H R Y SOL. I T to; • "                                'I' HAir        MT ST A K E         I S

    4         TOO       01,0       TO       CORRECT,                 SO          IT'S                   CAl,I.ED              CHRY5()'I'ILE.

    5         INS T DE           OF'    C H R Y SOT lIJ E                 THE R E               's C H R Y SO 'I' I LEn R 0 P IJ )'t; 'I' s .

    6         T H 1': R ,,; 'S     'r REM 0      IJ f 'I' E,      ACT I NO I, I TEA N DAN T H ()}J H Y L 1,1 T f<: •

    7         AND       THEN           AMPHIBOLE                  MATRIX.                               'rH~Sr~            FOUR           "'IBROUf;.

              THIS        IS       NONFIBRUUS.

    9                                   'rHE        COUR'I':               c () U I. D                  YOU            ,J U S'I'     S T ,,; PAS 1 D fi~            A


10            LITTL~             BIT.

11       I    A.          TN       ADDITION                 'ro THA'r,                          yOU           HAVfi:          CROCIDOLI'I'E                     AND

1 2
         I
         I'   AM 0 SIT E           AND          T H g SEC 0 ME:                  1:<'   ROM             SOU 'I' H          A Eo' RIC A •                 'r HER E       I S

1. 3          NOW       A I. S 0       S 0 ME       C ROC J [) 0 I. IT";                        'I' H A 'I'        COM E S           F R () M AU S T R A L I A

1 4           AND       S 0 MEA M0 S I 'I' E                '/' H A ']'    C0           M"I'~   S       FRO MIN D I A,                       BUT


15       i
              ORIGINALLY                    THEY          CAME            FROM                  SOUTH                  AFRICA.

16       II
         I,
                          NOW,          CHRYSOTILE                        MIXTURE                           CONTAINS                   CHRYSOTTLE
         !i

17       II
         .    FIBER           AND       THAT'S              THE           ONE              WHICH                   I     DESCRIBED                       TO    YOU       AS

18
         II                                                                                                                   1'1'     CONSIs'rs
         !I
19            CHEMICALLY                    OF     MAGNESIUM,                             SILICA,                        OXYGEN              AND          WATER.

20            IT'S        A      HYDRA'rED                MAGNESIUM                             srIJlCA'rE.                          'I'HI<-;RI--;       ARE    FOUR


2 :1.         0 X Y c.a: N S       TOO N E:              S I I.J C A,            SO             'f' H A']'         M A K E SIT               A       S 1 I..1 CAT E


22            INSTEAD              OF       A    S[LICA.

2.1                       IF       YOU          CAloI,                     YOU                  t 1<'       YOU          H A VET WOO X Y G fi: N S                       'I' 0


24            S I L I C A,         'I' HEN       ] 'T'   's A S I          L. T (: A .                      YOU          AllD        F'OUR'I'H,               THEN


2   I)        TT   's     A      S 1 l. I C A '1' F; •
                                                     G.          Schepers             -     Direct                                        64



  1                   'r REM 0 IJ I     'f' E       ] S     THE        SAM 1:0;,      MAG N 1:'; S 1 U M,              S I L I CA ,

            OXYGEN.              I ' L jJ       1, E A V E        0 U'r     'I' HEW A 'J' ERN 0 W,                     f' I., USC A L C I U M •
       II
  3         SO    IT'S       A       C A IJ C 1 U M MAG N Ii: S ) U M S 1 JJ I CArl' t<: •                             ACT I N U 1J 1 'I' E              I S
        I
  4
        I
        I
            THE      SAME        AS     CHB~MICALLY,                        BUT       Irr      IS        lJARGER             AND          I'J'    ALSO

  5         CONTAINS             A     LITTLE               PHLORIZIN.                      I 'I ..IJ        PU'l'     AN        P       FOR      'I'H   Eo;


  6         ELEMENT          PHLORIZIN.
        i
  7    II             WE     COME           TU       ANTHOPHYLL1TE.[T'S                                           MAGNESIUM,

  8         SILICA,          OXYGEN                 PLUS          FE,       THAT'S             IRON,              CH~MICAL
        I
  9         SUBSTANCE                KNOWN           AS          IRON.           IT       HAS         ONl,Y          FJ VE           PERCENT

10          TO    EIGHT          PERCEN'I'                Olt'    IRON.              THA'l1        MAKJo~S           I'l'    DIFFEREN'l1


11     II   FROM      'PHESE          TWO           CROCIDOLT'I'E                    WHICH            HAS         MAGNESIUM,

12     II
       Ii   SILICA,          OXY(H~N                AND          IRON       BUT       WHERE              THIS          JS        5.8
       I:
13          F I VE   'I' 0   E I G WI'          PER C EN'], ,             (N     CAS E         0 F'      C ROC I lJ 0 1, I '1' E            '}' H E


14          IRON      IS     AROUT              20        PERCENT               OR MOKE.                     AND       IN        THE        CASE

1 5         0 F   AM 0 SIT ft;        'r H E T RON I S                    ABO WI'         40       PER C E NT.

16                    NOW,           SINCt<;         THE          PERCEN'P            IS       PART           OF       'I'HE         WHO(,E,             TO

17          MAKE      MORE           IRON           tN      'rH}<~     MOIJI';ClJLE            YOU           HAVE           TO       DEDUC1'

18          SOMETHING                ELSE,           SO          'rHESE         TWO       HAVf'~         A    L,OW          MAGNfo;STUM

1 9         CONTE N TAN D               A       HI GH            I RON      C () N 'T' E N'r   .         ')' HIS HAS                 A    H1 GH

20          MAGNESIUM                AND        NO        IRON         CONTENT.                    AND        THIS           ONE          IS THr:

21          0 N L YON E          W [rr H A           IJ 1 'I'T L ft:      J R () N    [ N      I 'I' •

22                   ALL         THESE              FIVE          FIBERS,             ACTINOL[TE,

23          ANTHOPHYLLIT~:                          TREMOLITE,                   CROCIDOLITE,                          AMOSITE                   ARE


24          SOLID.           SO       THEY           WOULD             BE       DRAWN,             IF        WE      DHAW            TH~M         AS           A

/. 5        SOL] D      M A l' ~ RIA L          r    W r 'J' HOurI'         A    H 0 L 1.,0 WIN S T [n~ .
       II
        I
                                                           G.     schepers               -      Uirec:r.                             65



  1                       NOW,           AS       to·OR      ~l:1.E';'        ROllGHL,Y              SPEAKING,                 THIS

  2            CHRYSOTILE                    FIB~R           IS       THE VERY               THINNEST.                    ITS      DIAMETER

  3            I S    A A 0 U ']'       O. 0 20ft'           A    M I C R () N .         I'LL WRITE A LITTLE

  4            SYMBOL U FOR MJCRON                                    SO EACH TIME WE'RE TALKING ABOUT

  5            THAT.           MI C R0        Nt SON E - THO USA N D 'I' H OF' A M T I, [J I M I'~ T E R •                                       A


  6            MILLIMETER                    IS     ONE-THOUSANDTH OF'                              A METER.                   A

  7            MILLIMETER                    IS      ABOUT THE THICKNESS OP THE LEAD                                                    IN

  8            T HAT      PEN C I IJ •              SOT F             YOU [) J VI        D}4~     'P H A'r       BY   50; 000           'j'I ME S    I




  q            IF     YOU      CAN           IMAGINI';            DOING 'PHAT,                    YOU GWI' 'j'O BE THE

10             'I' HINN}4;SS            OF CH"RYSO'l'ILE.

11                                                                                                                        NEX'P

12             SMAIJIJES'l'             IS    CROCIDOIJITE.                         THAT          IS     ABOUT 0.1.

1.1            IT'S       ABOUT              F'lV~         TIMES           THICKER THAN CHRYSOTILE.

14                        THE NEXT                  IN THICKNESS                     IS         TREMOGITE.                     'l'HAT     WOUI.,D

15             BE BETWEEN 0.1                             AND     0.5.

16                        NEXT COMES ACTINOLITE.                                             THAT CAN GO                  0.3 TO
           ,

17     'I
       ;i      ABOU'I' 0.7.

18     ,I                 NEXT COMES                       ANTHOPHYLLITE                                     WELL     I   'l'HE NEXT
       II
1'1    I'      ONE      rs AMOSITE.                         AMOSITE             IS       FROM          0.5        TO ABOUT
       i
;),0
       I       MAXIMUM WOULD                        HE ABOUT ONk MICRON AND THEN THE
       I
       ,
       ,
       I



21             tJ A .R G J:i~ S 'I' AND       F   A '1."1' EST        JS    AWI' HOP H Y L          L 1'1' fo~    A N II '1' H A 'r CAN          B   E

22             'l'WO TO       SEVI';N             MlCRON              IN    'j'HICKNF:SS.

:?3                       NOW       I    T H F.   St<;     ARE                  [ 'M         ']' A I, K TN <.7    A B () U T


24             'r'HICKNgSS.                   'j' H 1":    R}<: A1,    CON C fi; P '1'       I S 'f' H INN 1'; S S •            so      YOU

25             CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT                                         Mt<~AN    !-IY       '['H.A'T;        1S   I)RAW YOI}             A
                                                     G.       Schepers -            Oirec~                      66


 1         Rfnl         BL,OOD CORPlJSCLE<;.                          ALL OF YOU         KNOW THAT         IN OUR

 2         Bon      I   ~   S WE     H AV r;       I., T 'T' T I, E   'r H I N G S F T, 0 A']' I N GAR 0 UNO    IN THE;

           B L 0 0 DCA I, L F~ 0           R 1:': D B 1.,00 U COR PUS C I, F: S .              THEy'RE SO SMALL

 4         YOU CAN'T SEE                       ]T.            IF YOU          PRICK     YOUR    FINGER         YOU    SEF:

 5         A RED             SPLASH AND THERE'S                              MILLIONS OF RED BLOOD

 6         CORPUSCLES.                     THE DIAMETER OF A RED                             BLOOD CORPUSCLE

 7         FROM HERE TO HERE                               IS         SEVEN MICRON ON AN AVERAGE.                          LF

  8        YOU          HAV~;      '1'H8 AVERAG8 FIVE MICRON 'I'HEN                               YOU HAVE

 9         MTCROCYTIC ANEMIA.                                    IF YOU HAVE            l'1' OVER TEN YOU             HAVE

10         MACROCYTIC ANEMIA.                                    IT STAYS         C()NSTANT.

11    II                    A CHRYSOTILE FIBER THAT                               IS    SEVEN MJCRON LONG

12    II
      Ii
           CAN S I '}' RIG Hrr                 T NS     JOE 0         }4'   T HAT C ELL AND YOU WON' '!'              BE
      'I


           A B L E '1' 0        SEE                     NOW           RED BLOOD COR PUSCl,ES ARE                     SOME
1.1
       i                                 I 'I' .                 I




14         OFT H E SMA L I J g S 'f' C F,; L fJ SIN 'I' H E BOD Y .

15         I,   r K F.,      FOR     INS TAN C Ii:,             E PIT H r~ Id UM C E {, I. 1, I N I NG '1' H E

16         B RON CHI A t, T R /..; E:                C {J B E 1.1 KE T HIS             AND   I, ITT], E   H A IRS 0 N

17         TT,          AND     ISN'T --

18         Q.               DOCTOR,        LET MF:               INTERRUPT YOU.                WOU1,D     THOSF~



lq         HAIRS             BE THE CILIA WE HEARD ABOUT EARLIkR                                          IN THIS

20         '}' R I A I, ?

21         A •              YES,    SIMILAR TO THEM BUT THESE ARE MOBILE ONES.

22                          NOW,    FROM THERE TO THERE WOULD BE UP TO                                          15

2 3 M I C RON,                  SOY 0 U C 0 lJI., D H AV F. A PAT HOG E N I CAS B EST 0 S

24         FIBER             SITTING RIGHT                      JNSIDE THE CELL AND                  YOU CAN'']'

25         SEE 1'1'.               r 'I' 's 'l' H E I{ E: .
                                                         (~.       s c h e per s               -    U   i r   F! C i.                         67



  1                        NOW,             WHA'r     DO       r     MRAN             BY       "PATHOGJ:i:NIC?"                            r 'Lt, U Sf':

  2          'l'HE WORD                II   PATHOGF.:N Ie."                         A I. TJ    T H F~      /<'1 BE R S         ARE

  3          PATHOGENIC                      BUT THERE                   ARE          SOME THAT ARE                            MORE

  4          PATHOGENIC                      'l'HAN      OTHERS,                    l,IK~:         .44        RUIJL~;T             WILL       KILL

  5          YOU      DEAD.                  A    .22      BUI..LET MIGHT                           (,~O      rfHI<OUGH               YOU.         YOU

  6          MIGHT           HAVE            A WOUND,                 BUT NOT NECESSARILY                                          DIE,       UNLESS

  7          IT      HITS             A VITAL            SPOT.

  8                        SAME DR.                 GARDNER                   OF      SARANAC                 LABORATORIES                     THAT        I

  9          TALKED TO YOU                          DISCOVERED                        AROUNUL940,                             '42,         THAT

10           CHRYSOTILE                      FIBERS            THAT             ARE           OVER         TEN          MICRON             LONG
      I
11    I      CAUS}';         DISJo.::ASE,             C A USE A S B E S ']' 0 SIS,                            ANY        1J   ENG THO F'
      I                                                                               ~IBERS               THAT          ARE          SHORTER
:12
      I
      I
             DISCOVERY                      CAUSJ<; CANCER.

13    Ii     THAN          FIVE,             ONf:i: ']'0 rI'HRE:E                   RArpIO,             ONE TO                FIVE MICRON

14           CAN      C A USE               DIS F: A S E,          B lJ '}'    MU (' HMO R f<~                S lOW L Y

15    I
      'III                 ,' 0   R    INS 'r A NeE ,              I N        HIS - A N I MA I:               ~   : PER I      ~   E Wf S    WHArl'      IT

16           DOES          TO ANIMAJ.S                   WIlrH           AN AVERAGJo.::                    FIBER              T}<~N    MICRON

17    Ili    LONG          OR         LONGER          THEN THE                      ANIMALS                WOULD              BE      OF

18           ASBESTOSIS                      IN     24     MONTHS.                      WHEREAS                   IF     HE        DOES      TO
      ;1
19           ANIMA1.S                 WITH        FrVE MICRON                         j:t'IBERS,              THfi;Y          WOULDN'lr GET

20           '1' H E I R     A S B E S r1' 0 S 1 S         'I' I L 1.         6 3     M0 NTH S .                  SO,         THEREFORE,               THE

21.          LENGTH OF THE                          ~[BER            IS        A      ~ACTOR               IN      MAKING              IT MORE

22           ABLE          'eo        MAKE        nrSEASE.

23                         THE         SAME WITH                   CANCER.                     WE       ~OUND           THE           FIBERS       OVER

24           'lIEN    MICRON                 LONG;         HI        PERCJ:<:NT OF                      Hrs        MICE            OEVET..OPBO

25           CAN C E R WHER E A S 'I' H () S F; 11' H A 'I'                             Wfi; R F:       BEL 0 W F I V "'.:;            MJ C R () N ,
                                                G.    Schepers              -   Uirpc~                                   68



  1    ON], Y .A B 0 UTA TEN 'I' H 0 F T HA '1',                            E T G H'l'    P J:i: R C EN '['     DE V F: JA) P    .Eo~ f)



  2    CAN C E R .        S0    'r HAT ']' H E LEN G 'T' H 0 F THE J:i' I B E R DOE S B 0 '1' H

  .3   TELL YOU WHETHER THE FIBER                                      IS GOING TO CAUSE

  4    ASBESTOSIS              AND          ALSO TELLS               YOU THAT               IT'S GOING TO

  5    CAUSEo; CANCER.                      SAM E A P P L I r: S            FOR     ME S 0 'I' H ELI 0 MA .

  6    Q.        'l'HANK       YOU,             [}OC'l'OR.         YOU CAN RETURN TO YOUR

  7    SEAT.

  8              DOC '1' 0 R,       I   I   D I, IKE '1' () S HOW               YOU WHA '1' F' 0 R '1' HE

  q    RECORD        HAS       BEEN MARKED DEFENDANT'S                                      KXHIBLT                 4.        COULD

10     YOU      LOOK      AT THAT,                   PLEASE.

11     A.        YES,      SIR.

12     Q.        AND CAN YOU                        IDENTIFY         WHAT THAT                 IS?              HAVE YOU

13     SEEN THAT PICTURE                             BEFORE?

14     A.        WELL,         THIS             A PICTURE OF CHRYSOTILE                                   FIBERS.

15     LOOKS       LIKE        A PICTURE                  I'VE       SEEN         IN     A BOOK BEFORE,                          BUT

16     I T   C 0 U 1. D   BE    A N O'f H F; R          P T err U I< F: •


17     Q.        AND      I ' D 1., r KEY 0 U               TO A C 'I' U ALI, Y ASS U MF:                     I T    HAS       B E r": N


       IDENTIFIED              AS       CHRYSO'rILE F'IBERS.                              I '[)     [J   J KE       YOU TO

'1 9   AL S 0    ASS U MET H E S r;                  H AV E B E 11: N I DE N 'I' I FIE D ASP T C '1' URES

20     OF CROCIDOLITE --

21     A.        AND AM 0 S I           't' E   .

22     Q.        AMOSITE            FIBERS?

2,1    A.        YES.

24                         THE COUR'r:                      YOU'RE NOW                   SHOWING TWO OTHER

25     EXHIBITS.
                                                              G.       Schepers                       -       Oi.rect"_                                     6'1



                                         M f< •        Me         CON N E IJI_J :                Y8S.                D- 2          A N f)       E X H I A 1 'J' S


  2            D-3,        YOUR          HONOR.

  .3           BY    MR.          MC     CONNI:OJ1.:

  4            Q•          CAN         YOU         T   }4;   LL     ME,          DO C'r' 0 R:                 ARE         A S B E S 'I' 0 S          FIB F; R S


  5            CURVED             AND       ClJRI,Y               AS                      ARE             'rHEY           EVER           CURVED                AND


  6            CURLY          AS       IN        THJS             PICTURE?


  7            A.         ARE          THEY            ALL          CURVED?


  8            Q.          NO.           ARE           THEY            EVER            CURVED                   OR        CURLY             AS       SHOWN               IN

  Cj           THIS        PICTURE?

10             A.         WHEN           YOU           HAVE            CHRYSOTILE                             IN     LOW           MAGNIFICATION,


11             I    THINK           THAT'S                   LOW       MAGNIFICATION,                                     PICTURE                 OF

'] 2           CHRYSOTII_.fo~               AS         fT         COMF;S            OFF'         THE            ROCKS,                 Br;CAUSF~               'I'HOSF:


13             L0 0 K     'I' 0     MEL IKE                   THO SEA REB lJ N D I. E S                                   0 F'     F   r BER S            S 'I' U C K


14             TOGETHER,                 THEN                TH~       UNEQUAIJ                  THICKNESS                         OF       THE           FIBERS,


15     II      F' I B E R S,       A [. 'r H 0 U (; H                  G A V Eo        YOU            A       D F: S C RIP 'I' ION                0 ft'     WHAT

       1:
16             'I' HEY    II0 0 K8 D             ttl K E,           A R 1:';     NO '1'         A IJ WAY S           R 0 L LED              E QUA 1.1 IJ Y             F A'I' •
       II
       ~
17         ;              1 NO'I' HER                  W0 R D S,               SO M}4; '1' 1 ME S               'I' HER 0 l .. L            [S       20        JJ AYE R. S
       ~I


18     il
       I
       I
               FAT       AND        SOMETIMES                       'rEN         I,AYfi~RS                EO'A'T'    AND           SOMl':TTMES                    30
       I,
       ,I
19             LAYERS             FA'r,          YOU          KNOW,             THA'I'           F~FEO·EC'1'.
       II
20     II                 'I' HE       F' A'J'     F J BE R S            WI IJ 1J         'n..; N D           TO     BEN D             T HIS        WAY.                THE
       :1
       Ii
       II
21     Ii
       I
               'l'HIN     FIBERS                 WIlJI,           rl'fo~Nn      ,}'O      Bl:':ND             '[,HA'f'      WAY          Hfo~CAUSE                OF


2),
       I       THE       lJ N E QUA L            R 0 Itl,     r NG       0F         '1' HI:':    BUN D I. £t;        s.            l'r'S          LIKr~


23             BUN D L E S         0 F      CAR PET S                  'r H A '1'      YOU        0   V £0:     f< 0 1J   to E D       lJ P •


24                        A       'I' HIe K        V t<; R Y        U ENS E lJ Y                R 0 L IJ E DCA R PET                        WILL            b J 1:0;


25             s'rRA U;H'I'            AND        ONE             "'HA'r 'S            'l'H INLY                R()IJL,l<~j)           j'o'/{OM     A      'i'HI N
     I'I
     II                                                  (~.      S<ehepers                  -      Dire<ei.                                           70
     Ii
 1    I
     .i
           M A '1' g R T A I,    WILL           '1' END          'r 0       fI' 0 I, DAN D             T HAT               eRg A 'I' F.: S       '}) H E


 2
     q     IMP RES S ION                T H A'I'         C H R Y S O'rJ L F:               HAS         THE S.Eo:                CUR V A T U RES             IN
     h
     Ii
     d
           IT.        IT        DOES         HAVE              IT       WHEN              YOU       LOOK                 A'J'    1'1'    Air     A      LOW
 3   II
     Ii
 4         POWER,             WHEN        YOU            MAGNIFY.

 5   II    Q•         I ft'     WE      MAG N I FIE D                   I   'r     M0 R E        '1' I M E S ?
     II
 6
     II    A •        IF        YO IJ     M A (~N If" Y               C HR Y SO'), I L EFT BE.I< S                               SOT HEY                ARE      0 ft'
     II
 7         THE      SAME         THICKNESS,                           AND          YOU'D            HAV~                 TO      MAGNIFY
     II
      I

 8         C H R Y SOT I L g            ft' f B 1:0: R    M0 R E            'r HAN         'I' EN      TIM E; S                 G REA T E R            T HAN


 9         C ROC I DO 1,1 T}<;            FIB E R              'P 0     G E 'I'       '}' HEM       'I' 0       B 1:':                   LOOK           'I'HE


10         SAM E,        YOU         K NOW,              TWO          PEN C I I., S          N EXT              TOO N E                 AN 0 THE R •


11         WHEN       YOU        G E'I'      THE M             'I' H A'r         'I) HEY' REB 0                 'r H       S 'I' R A [G We' •


12         Q•         DOC 'II 0 R,           CAN          YOU           'I' E l. 1,       MEl J:t'          C H R Y SOT J [J F:                FIB E R S


13         CAN      BE        BREATHED                   IN      AND             REACH           'rHE           AIJVI';OlJ]              Of"     'I'HI':


14         HUMAN         LUNG?

15         A.         OH,        YES.              TH~Y'RE                       BREATHED                   IN.                 THi-;Y     GET


16         AIJVEOJ,1 •               THEY          CAUSE                A        DISEASE               CALIJft:n                 ASBESTOS] S.


17         Q•         H A V F:       YO lJ      PER SON Ald. Y                        S E: ENe H R Y SOT I IJ fi:                        FIB     fi~   RS   T HAT


18         H A V ERE A C H ED                A J.. V E ())J ICE L L S                      0 R      'I' H ft~      P I, E U RAe E I, I., S ?

lq         A.         OH,        YES.              YOU           CANfDkNTIFY                                THEM                THKRE          BY


20         E L ¥; C'P RON        M I C R 0 S COl-' Y                  TN         EX PER I MEN TAL,                         A N I M A I. S        WH J:t~ R E


21         YOU      CAN         GET       THE            TISSUES                   WITHIN              TWO               YEARS           OR      A      YEAR


22         FROM       PUTTING                IT IN               THERE.                    'rHEY'RE                      S'I'fLIJ        IN      'PH/:<;    F'ORM


23         OF'   FAT          BUN D I, E SAN I)                  Y () U          c: A N    SEE         'I' HEM             UN D.,; i(     'I' HE


24         M I C R 0 S C () P    to: AND           '1' H 14; Y        M A Kft~        A    T H TN G             C A IJ I, 14; DAN              AS B 1-'' : S TO S


25         BODY.
                                               G.        schepers               -    Direct.                          7i


 1           Q.        UNO E R    WH J C H           K1ND        0 £0'    M I C R 0 S C () P g ?


 2           A.        THAT      WOULD         BB        MAXIMUM               POW~R.


 3           Q.

 4           A.        oP'rrCAI. M1CROSCOPE.

 5           Q.        OFT HER E G U I, A R I..I G H '1' MI C R () S COP fi; ?

             A.        YES.       THAT'S               WITH        FRESH            INHALAT[ON OF

 7           CHRYSOTILE           SUCH         AS        WE DID UP                  AT THE         SARANAC

 8           LABORATORY.

 9                     YOU     AL S 0     SEE         A T H I NG CAL ld'~ DAN AS B F; S rr 0 S BOD Y

10           BECAUSE         INSUIJTS         THAT COME                    FROM Rti;D             l:HJOOU CORPUSCIJES,

11           ANIMAl.      BLOOD         DEPOSIT AROUND THE                                  FIBERS       AND THEY WILL

12           HAVE      A YEIJIJOW COLOR                    AND           YOU   CAN          SEE THEM          THfo~RE.


13       i             AFTER THE              FIBER             HAS       BkEN       IN THE TISSUE ABOUT
         I
14       I   T W() 0 R 'r H R E E       Y to' A R S        I)   IKE       JN   A HUM A N L U N(7 {              THE    FIB E R S

15    I      SPLI','    "ENG':':WI~E."                   "HEY            BEGIN       '1'0    SPI.!'I'    I,ENG'I'HWISE

16           INTO THEIR           COMPONE:NT                    BUNOI.FoS.              'I' HEN    '1' HEY    BEe 0 MF~ TO ()
     II
J7
     II      THIN TO         SEE WITH THE MICROSCOPE:.                                           YOU Nl!:ED AN
     Ii
     II
     II
18           ELECTRON MICROSCOPE.
     I
     I
     J
19           Q.        AND THE N 'r HEY                  B E COM E:        HARM I, E S S ?

20           A.        NO.       THEN THEY                 BECOME MORE                      HARMFUL.            'rHE MORE

21           THEY      SPLIT,       IT'S             LIKE A HAND GRENADE.                                HAND GRENADE

22           BEFORE       IT     EXPLODES                IS      NOT HARMFUL.                      YOU       CAN CARRY       IT

23           IN YOUR         POCK£i;f('.             BUT THE MOMENT                         IT    EXPLODES,           THEN

24           THOSE      FRAGMENTS             BECOME THE HARMFUL                                  ELEM~NT.


25                     AND     WHEN       A    1:"   I En: t<    H (J N D L, r: () r'       C H R YSOT I IJ E    IS    B R 0 KEN
                                                       G.        schepers               -      Direc~                                    72

       'I

  1            A PAR T       f    WH A 'T'    A R~;    T H f'~     P I f.o~ C EST H A 'r             W ERE        P A J< 'J'     0 £0'   T H A '1'
       II
  2    II
       "
       I'
       "

  3    II  i   A •           WH A 'r     ARE       '}' HEW HAT?

  4            Q.            WHAT        ARE       THE        PIECES           THAT           WERE          ORIGINALLY                     IN THE

  S            B lJ N D ld~;      CAL LED          0 N C F~      'P HEY , R £0:       S EPA RAT E fl              0 U'I' ?

  6            A.            THEY        ULTIMATELY                  BECOME             FIBRfLS.


  7            Q•            HOW       DO     YOU      S PEL, I,        T H A 01' ?


  8            A.            F-I-B-R-I-L-S.


  CJ           Q.            AS    OPPOSED             TO        FIBERS?


10             A.            AS    COMPARED                TO      FIBERS.


11             Q •           SOW HEN           P EO P I d'~        S PEA K        0 F        CHRY S       orr I   IJ E     FIB E R S       f




12             THEY'RE             REFERRING                  TO    A     RUNDLE?


13             A.            YJ:i:S.         THE      BUNDLfi:S           AR8         UP      '1'0    A     THOUSAND


14             SOMETIMES                 UP    TO      10 / 000           INDIVIDUAl,                     FIBRIl,S.


15             Q.            AND       DOES        THIS          APPEAR           TO         BE      ASBESTOS                  FIBRILS               OR


16             FIRER             BUNDLES?

17             A.            THOSE           ARE      FIBER          BUNDLES.


18             Q.            AND       COULD          YOU        EXPIJAIN             '['0    'rHE        LADIES               AND


1 CJ           GEN'r L, I'.:M F;N        WHA'J'       OCC U R SIN             '[,H E         HUMAN          BODY           AFT ER          TH E


20             HOD Y         B R F; A K S     DOW NTH E              C H R Y S o<r      [ I. E<~     1 NT 0       I N j)   [   V I D U A JJ

21             1" I 8 R I 1J S?

22             A.            rrHF.:Y     MOVF;        AROUND            IN    'PHE:          '1'1 SSU.I<:S.              'I'HF:RE        ARE


::n            C E L, I. S       .I NTH E      R () [J Y      K NOW N        ASP HAG 0 C Y '1' I!; S •                     PHAGO           Mtt;ANS


24

25                           'I'Hfi:SE       ARE                   'I' HEY     S}<; R V}<:         ABO UTA               S 1 M 1 lJ A R
                                                    G _     ::->r.heperg                     -    lJi recto                                     73



 1          F' UNC 'I' JON AS,              SAY,          'r HE 'I' R ASH CO J, I J ft~ e'l' f 0 N S YS T E; MIN T Hr;

            CI,]'Y.         'r H to:    B () D Y     ft' J N D S     'I' H A 'I'         'r H F; R F';    I    8     AN     A H NOR M A IJ              T H TNG


 3          IN '{' HE TIS SUE C A I, I, r: f) A F J HER.                                              I 'J l       I I >E: WI'   j   I" I E S   I ']'     ANn

 4          'J' H r: NIT      WI i, L       S t'; N D '1' H E P HA(7 0 C YT E TO (.;. 0                                     CAP 'r U R fo~         r TAN D

 5          THE      PHAGOCYTE WILL COME SWALLOW                                                          fT.

 6          P HAG 0 C YT E WI 1, L CAR R 'I.                       1 '1'      'f' ()     'T' HEN         EAR 8 S '}' ] , YMPH AT I C

 7    I     DRAINAGE SYSTEM LIKE TAKING                                                      IT TO THE                      S~WAGE DUMP,
      I
 8          THEN RELEASE THE                           FIBER.

 9                     A WHOLE LOT OF THOSE FIBERS GO CENTRALLY TO

10          WHAT ARE CALLED THE LYMPH                                                  NODES             IN THE                  PART OF THE

11          CHEST BETWEEN THE TWO LUNGS.                                                          'T'HBRE'S                 SOME TISSUE

1?-         AND      IN THERE THERE ARE LYMPH NODES.                                                                      MANY OF THE

13          CHRYSOTILE                  FIB~RS            END THERE AND                                  REMAIN THERE.                                  TH ft~

14          BODY HAS               A WAY           TO NEUTRAL[ZE THE EFFECT 80                                                             IT

15          DOESN'T CAUSE DISEASE                                    IN          TH~             LYMPH NODES                           BUT YOU              S~E


16          THEM BY THE THOUSANDS                                     IF         YOU             ANALYZE                  IT.

17                    WHEN THE l,YMPH NODES                                            HAVE:          BECOME                (o'IIJLED UP,

18          1'1'   'S], I   K F:       A 'r R ASH D lJ M P                 '[' H A '}'   I   S   'I' 0 0           F U L I, .         THEN 'rHE

19          MESSAGES GO our)' W}o;                         DON'T 'l'AKE ANYMORE'; 'fRASH ON THIS

20          SITE,       GO DUMP               IT       SOMEWHER~                         ELSE,                 OKAY?                  'T'HEN '{'HOSE

21          PH AGO C Y T E S ARE                   D IRE C ']' EDT 0                     GO 'r 0               '1' HE     SUR F' ACE            0 F       T H ft~

22          L U NG AND THE N 'I' HEY GO 'I' H R 0 UGH ')' H }o~ ME S () THE L I ALe E L ld;; ,

23          TO THE LYMPHATICS AND ON THE                                                         FAR           SIDE OF THE CHEST

24    i     WALL, AND '.I'HEY CAN Gl:!:'1' s'rucK B.Eo.:CAUSE THE PHAGOCY'rE
      1,1
25    1     DOES      NOT          LIVE       F'OR.I':Vfo:R •                 .I'I']S             A      I,TVI.NG                'I'HING AND
                                                G.      ~chepers                  -    Direct                                 74


 1          JUST LIKE ANY                LIVING THING                            IT    HAS       A DEFINED                 LIFESPAN

 2          AND THE FIBER                IS      SO BIG AND CLUMSY FOR                                           IT TO CARRY

            AWAY THAT           IT WJ.LL DIE BEFORE                                   IT'S       DUNE           ITS JOB A"D

 4          IT WILL DROP THAT FIBER THERE                                              LIKE AN OLD DISABLED

 5          TRUCK.           I 'I' WI IJ I., SIT AT THE SID E 0 F 'I' HE H I G HWAY

 6          I R R I TAT I NG EVE R Y B 0 IJ Y UN T I I, 'I' H 8                         BOD Y          SEN D SAN 0 THE R

 7          PHAGOCYTE TO GO                     PICK UP THAT RUBBISH                                       AND TAKE            IT A

 8          JJ   ITT LED I S 'r A N C fi;   •        B U 'I'     0 1<' T to: N    RY    T H F:    'P   I   ME         'r HAT HAS

 9          HAPPENED THE FIBERS ALRF;A[)Y                                         IRRI'l'A'rED ON 'PHE Ct4;[d,S

1 0 K NOW N AS                FIB R 0 H I, AS T SAN D ST I M U LA ([' ED 'r HEM 'r 0                                       BE HA V E

11          LIKE SPIDERS.

12                     'I'HEY LOOK          1... 1KF:     SPIDERS,                    'rHEY      BEHAVl<; [JIKE
     Ii
     Ii

13   IiII   SPIDERS AND THEY DO LIKE SPIDERS.                                                     l.   N R r; S P 0 N SET 0
     I:
14          THE       PRESENCE       O~         THE FIBERS,                      THEY WILL SPIN OUT THIN

15          FIBERS,          MICROSCOPICAl,LY THIN THA'I' YOU CAN ONLY                                                             SEE

16          THOSE WI'l'H AN              ELECTRON SCOPE CAl.IJED COLIJAGEN AND

17          ELASTIC TISSUE;                     AND THEN THESE                          FIBERS             WJLL BE SPUN

18          IN THE VICINITY                     OF THE ASBESTOS                           FIBER AND THEN THEY

19          WI IJ L TEN D TOT RAP T HAT                              F T B E R THE RES 0                    I   'J'    CAN' 'I' B E

20          MOVED        BY THE      FHAGOCYTES                       AND        IT'S         PERMANENTLY                     IN

21                          YOU CAN             FIN [)         T T T H r~ R E 20,                30 YEA R S i, ATE R .

22          Q.         DOC TOR,      I      W0 ur, n           [,1   KF; YOU °r 0             ASS UME '[' H A'}' AN

23          INDIvrDUAL WAS                  BORN         IN 19.38                AND ,]'HA'T' HE                      BEGAN

24          W R K I t'J G A'J' '}' HE () W1<; N S COR N [ NG B E R LIN
             0                                                                                         P LAN 'r W R K [ NG
                                                                                                                 0                       f   N

25          THE      PRODUCTION             OF       KAYLO            lN APPROXIMATELY                                 1960.
                                                                 G.        Schepers                            -    Direct                                    75


  1                          THAT              HE     WORKED                    AS         A     STRIPPER                    STRIPPING                       KAYLO

  2            PRO DUe T              0 U 'r        () F'    '1' H 1";     MOL. D S              1" 0 RAP PRO X 1 MAT 1'; L Y                           TWO        YEA R S

  3            BETWEEN                 '60          ANI)         '62            AND            THAT                THEREA~TER                    HE     WORKED               ON


  4            THE          PRO Due T ION                    I, I N E           AND            FI N 1 S H INC;               END        0'"'      THE

               PRODUCTION                       LINt'~           HANDLING                        KAYLO                INSUlJA'T'ION.
       I                     1      W0 U JJ D          l.. J. KEY 0 LJ                 '[' 0     F' U R '1' HER             ASS U MET HAT                     D URI N G
           I
           I
  7            PER Ion S              0 F'      W0 R KIN l,;               0 V E R 'r I M Eo;                  D URI N G       'r H 0 S EYE A R SHE
       II
  8            S PEN 'r          '}' r M 1<;    C 1. E A N I N G                lJ P       'I' H to:      P LAN 'I'         AND       C 0 IJ LEe'!' I N ("           D U S '1'
       I!
       I       AND          HANDLING                  BAGS               Oft'     RAW            ASHES'},OS                  FJBER.
       I
10                            [ , D I, I K F:               YOU          fi' U R 'I' H Fe; R           '[' 0       ASS U ME        'I' H A 'I'    'r H E      FIB E R
       I
11             'r H A '1'    WAS         USE D              IN     'I'HE';        PIJAN'I'                AND        'I'O    WHICH               THE


12
       I       GENTLEMAN                       WAS          EXPOSED                    CONSISTED                       OF      ANYWHERE                      HETWEEN

1 .1           7 5      TO       82      P Eo; R C E W['           CAN A D I AN                        RAW          FIB E R,C H R Y S 0 'I' [ 1,1<;


14             FIBER             AND           THAT          THk           BALANCk                        WAS        AMOSITE               FIBER.


15     I
       'I
                             1     W0 U L 0           I I J K r~         YOU           'I' 0     ASS U MET H A 'I'                   F' U 1-/ '/' H £i:t~.   '1' H A'}'


16     II      D U F.       T0     I<~ MPH A S EM A T U USB l, F~ B S H J:o~                                        HAD      L UNG         C () L IJ A PSI:': S           IN


17
       II
       I       APPR.OX IMA'l'EIJY                           , 65            '67            AN})           '68        AND        IN       '68          HE     H.AD         '['H 1":
                                                                   1
       j


18             BLEBS             REPAIRED                    SURGICAI,I,Y.


19                           'l'HA'l'          fo'ROM        J 968              ONWARD                   HE         WORE       A     MASK


20     I       CO we I N (J A 1, 1. Y               'I' H F.: REA F'P F: R                 U lJ R 1 N G             HIS      EM P I ,OY MEN 'I'              AND

21             T H A 'I'     rNA P PRO X I MAT E I, Y                                  1   97 2          0 R        '7."3    A S R f<~ S '[' 0 S       WAS         NO


22             1.,ONGgR            USED             A'r      'I'Hfo~       PI,AN1'.


23                           ASSUME                 FURTHH:R                    THA'T'            [N           APPROXIMA'rEl,Y                        1982         HE


24             WAS          0 I A G NOS ED                  H Y A P UI, M 0 NO I, 0 G ] S'I'                                ASH A V [ N G              P L E II R A L


25             ASBES'T'OSIS                     WHICH              lJA'T'F;R               t-i;XH I B ['l'I:U>              S()M~;      PkC)(,;Rfi;SS tON
                                                               (;.      S c h e per s          -      fJ   ire c         t                             76



  J         AND           THERE           WEKR            SOME           MILl)         lNTERSTlT]AL                                  CHANGES               NOT~D


            AND           '{,HA'p    HE        HAil            PRO(~KF~SS10N                   OF'         '1- o HI":     PI,fo:URAt.


  .3        THI CK          r-; N T N G    0 l\I       C H F: S 'P        X - RAY          AND        ]) EVE 1, () P M E WI'                  0 F'     M 1 IJ D


  4         RESTR1CTIONS.


  5                         DO      YOU        HAVF~               AN    OPINION               TO          A      REASONABl,E                         DEl;REE


  6         Oft'     MEDICAl,              CER','AINTY                      WHAT           WAS        'PHE              CAUSE           OF        THI';


  7         A S B E S '1' 0 SIS            I N         'I~ H fo~      HYP0    'r H F~ 't' TeA LIN IJ I                   V I DUA u            I   I   VE      P 0 S £0: D


  8         FOR           YOU?

  g         A.              YES.


:l 0        Q.              COULD          YOU            'I'fi:(,L      'l'HE     1,ADIES                 AND           GENTIJEMEN                    Oft'     'I'H";


11          JURY           WHAT           THAT            OPINION                [S,         DOCTOR?


1 i.   II   A •            THE       AS B F. S 'l' 0 S ] S                W0 U u il        HAVE            BEE NTH ERE S U VI'                                0 F
       I
1 .3        INHAl.IN(Y               ASBES'POS                        FIBERS           DURIN(;                 'i'HOSE               ,JOBS        YOU
       Ii
14          DES C RIB ED,                  'I' H E t R             PRO 1,0 N G E U           R E 'I' ~~ N 'f' ION               1 N     '1' HE        TIS SUE,

15          THEIR            MIGRATION                         TO       THE      PLEURA               AND               THE          REACTLON                 OF


16          THE           DIFFEREN'l'                  HOfJY            CELL,S         ~PO     THEIR                    PRESENCE                  IN       'rHE


17          FORMATION                     OF       FfBROUS                  SCAR           TISSUE.


18          Q.             DOC'I'OR,               IS          I'J'     POSSIBIJE              '1'0        EXCIJUDE                   OR      SEGREGA'I'E


19          OUT           ASBESTOS                 EXPOSURES                     BY        TIME            OR           BY     FIBER              TYPE          IN


20          THE           C AU S A ']' ION             () F'       A S B F~ S 'I' 0 S [ S ?


21          A.             NO,      T H A 'I'      's          NO '1'     tJ 0 S SIB L EO: •

22          Q.             fJ 0 C 'I' 0 R,         I     W0 U I, I)         L I K F;       YOU        'I' 0       J:r' U R THE }(          ASS U M r;          AS


23          AN      ADfH~NDLJM                 ')'0      'f'Hft;        HYPO'T'HW['ICAI,                       I: 'Vr;         Al.RF.ADY               PUSl!;D,


24          'I' H A 'I'     I NAP PRO X I. M A 'I' ..-; [, Y                  \J lJ N.,:     0 F'     1 98 8             '1' H F!:    J NUl V f f) U A L


25          1'Vfo~         DF:SCHTSI:U)                  Ii;XPI:i;RfENCElJ                   SWF:L,L,IN(.,                   0.1"     'I'HE       S'1'OIVlACH
                                                         G.         Sc:hepers                       -    Direct                                             77



  1        WHIe H         WAS         DE; 'I' E R MIN E U                 'I' 0        B £0;      AS C 1 T to; SAN 0                     '}' H A '1'    WAS             HE

  2        WAS       '1' HEN        () TAG NUS E D                  WIT H              P   E; R   I '}' 0 N 8 A 1,           M £t~ S 0 '1' H ELI 0 M A •


  3                     'l'HA'1'      HE      UN DgR W ft~NT                      COU R S E S                0):0'      T R EA 'rM t<.:w1'              'oro          NO

  4        A V A I 1,     AND         '1' H A 'I'     H 1<.;     SUB SEQ U F.: N ']' I .. Y                  DIE D             'r H E       to' 0 I .. bOW I N G


           CAI.ENDAK                YEAR.


  6                     DO      YOU HAVE                       AN OPINIUN TO A                                       REASONABLE                         UE:GREE


 7         oF    M E [} I C A I,         C E R '1' A IN'].' Y             AS           'I' 0      WH A '1'     WAS             'I' H E      C AU S E            0 1<'       '1' H E

  8        ME; S 0 'I' H E 1,1 () M A         AND              Tl E A 'I' H       (J   F       THE       I N D J V I. 0 U A I,                I' V E


  9        D r; S C RIB E D            I N    MY         H Y POT H E'I' I C A I,                    ?

10                      YES.

11         Q.           COULD            YOU          TEl,].J          THE             LADIES                AND             GENTLEMEN                      OF THE

12         JURY         WHA'I'        THE           CAUSE              WAS?


           A.           'l'HE       CAUSE             WOUlJD              HAVE;                BEEN          THE             INHAI,ATION                    r



14         RE'rEN'T'ION               AND           PROi,ON(Tl':n                      INTERAC'I'10N                          OF         Mfo~SOTHE[JIAl,


15    Ii   CELLS          WJTH           '['HE        ASHfo;S']'OS                     .. lHERS              HE         HAD            INHALED                  }JURING
      !I
      1!
16    II   'l'HA'r      LONG          PERIOD                   OF      WORKING                      WITH             'rHF;        FIRERS.
      !j
      I
17    J~   Q.           I S     I'r      PO S SIB JJ E                 'I' 0      EX CUI, PAT E                      0 R       '1' 0     S E G REG A '1' E                  0 U '1'


18         ASBESTOS                 EXPOSURES                       BY         FLBER               TYPE              IN       THE          CAUSATION                          OF

           THE       HYPOTHETICAL                              MESOTHELIOMA                              I'VE                DESCKIBED                      IN          MY


20                      'eo you?

21                      NOr         'I' H A' [' , S      NO 'I'        SCI E WI' I F' I CAL L Y                              P 0 S S ( B i, E •


22         Q.           AND     I     DOC 'r 0 R         I       I S      J 'I'        PO S S 1 ALE                  '1' 0    S 'I' A 'I' E      T HAT                I F


23         TH~       CHRYSOTILE                       HAD           BEEN               NEMOVED                 FROM               THE         MAN'S

2 4        E X P 0 SUR E r            'r H A'1'       1 S r         B f5 '1' W E l'; N            7 5   AND             8 2       PER C to-; N 'r           0   ft'     '}' H fo~

       I
25     I .' [".;.        'PO        WHIe H
                                                      HE         WAS           EXPOSED                  WAS             REMOV~D,                       1S       [T
                                                                 (7.    S   c h e per!:::                -     I)   ire c       t.                       7P.


            POSSIHl'!'~                  'PO        SAY          '[,HA'P       .l.t"     H~;          HAD           NU'I'       HAD         'rHA'l'     f<;XPUSUJ-(E


  2         THAT        HE          WOULD                  NEVER            HAVE              CONTRACTED                             ASBESTOSLS?


  .3                    DID              I       MAK~            THAT          CLEAR                  OR       DID          1        MAKE        IT


  4         CONFUSING?


  5         A.          WELL,                    YOU        SAJD            70         PERCENT                      WERE             REMUVED.                NOW,


  6

  7         Q.          WELL,                    BETWEEN                75 AND                      82       PERCENT                   OF       THE     FIBER


  8         WAS      CHRYSOTILE.


  9         A.          YES.


10          Q.          11:"        THAT                  WERE         REMOVED                      }i'ROM          HIS         EXPOSURfo~              AND      HE
        I
11          NEVER            WERE                EXPOSED                TO       'rHA c[,             AND           WAS         EXPOSED               ONLY       '1'0


12      I
       Ii
            THE      AMOSI'l'E
       Ii
13     I:   A.          YJ:o;S.
       Ii
       I'

l4          Q.          - -         .I. S        .1 'I'    P 0 S SIB I., ESC ( EN T I F' J CAL L Y                                       T ()    SAY     'I' H A 'I'    HE

lS          WOULD            HAVti;              (,;O'l"I'F":N         ASBES'rO~)lS                          F;VEN          Rt<;MOVJNG                THA'I'


16          EX P 0 S lJ R E              'f' 0      CHI< Y S () 'P T 1, £t~            FRO M             'r H to~    HY P0           'r H E'I' J. CAL    I


17          POSED?

1. 8                    CAN              YOU              SAY     '[' H A'I'     Hg           J.)   E E' I N I 'I' E 1, Y            W0 U 1, D    HAV E


19          GOTTEN                 ASBESTOSIS?

20          A.          FROM                 THE           I:'~XPOSURE                 'T'O         '['HE      .30     PERCE;N'f'                AMOSr'rE

21          cfHA1'     HE           WAS             EXPOSED                 TO?


22          Q.          '(   fo~   S •           ASS lJ MIN G               'I' H A'!'                        WE: IdJ,               B ETW EEN


2.j         A.          I N         0 'r HER              W0 R D S,            J'M            'I' 0      ASS U M E              H F:    N t4~ V E R     WAS


24          E X P 0 S 1'; f)        'I' 0        C H R Y S 0 'f' T [, to; •

25          Q.          ASS U ME                    '1' H A'1'    'I' HER E            WAS            N E V f!: R      A        D JAG NOS ISO to'
                                                                   G.     Scheper~                  -       nirec~




  1         AS BES'I10S IS.


  2         A.              YES .

  .1        Q •             AND          '1' H A 'J'       I N      'I' H g       H Y PO 'l' H r; 'P 1 CAl.        HIS 'I' 0 R 'I           T Hg


  4         CHRYSOTILE                           WAS         NOT          PART           OF        THE       EXPOSURE.

  ~         A.              IT      NEVER                  OCCURRED?


  6         Q.              NEVER                OCClJRRE;U.


  7         A.              OKAY.


  8         Q.              CAN          YOU            SAY         Ill<~FINI'IIIVr;I,Y                     SUCH      A    HYPOTHETICAL


  '9        INDIVIDUAL                           WOUi.D             DEl:i'INI'PEl.Y                 HAVE         GO'I"rEN             ASBESTOSIS


"1 0        WITHOUT                 BETWEEN                        75     TO        82     PERCENT               OF       HIS         EXPOSURE?


11          A•              Y Ii; S,         HE         C 0 lJ L D        H A V EGO T               I '1'    FRO M '1' H E            AM 0 SIT £o~ •


'1 2        Q.              I F     'I'Hl'~RF:             WAS          NO                    IF THERE HAU NOT BEEN                                      TH~



13          EXPOSURE                     THOUGH,                    CAN           YOU      DEfi'INI'I'ELY                 SAY         HE:    WOUIJD


01 4        HAVE            GOTTEN                  ASBESTOSIS?                               IN        OTHER         WORDs,                IF     YOU


15          REMOVED                 APPROXIMATELY                                   80     PERCENT              OF        THE         EXPOSURE              TO
       i,
       i
       I,


16     I'   ASBESTOS                     FIBER               OF         ANY         TYPE,           CAN         YOU       SAY         HOW        MUCH


17
       I,
       ji   fo' I B E R       I TWO U L D                    'I' A K E        T o e A lJ S l<~          A S B E S 'I' 0 SIS           T NAN YON E
       ii
       Ii
       Ii
18     II   I N D 1 V J D U A t, ?

O1Q    I    A.              1'M          UNDF.R8TANDING                               YOUR          (,JUF.S'l'lON          AN)             1'M


20          RES PO N DIN G                       'r 0      I 'I'    'I' H A rf'    YOU 'RE              SAY I N G         WF:   I   V r~    R E I)lJ C ED    ']' 0


21          ONE -     }<'   1 F   'r H       0 F'       W H A 'f'       YOU        0 R I   <" 1 N A ill 1'1      DES C R I H ED.


22          Q.              rr HAT       I   S      '1' RUE •             [8        IT     POSSIBLE                TO      SAY THAT ANY

23          GIVEN             INDIVIDUAL                            ABSOLUTELY                      WOULU          HAVE             CONTRACTED


24          ASBESTOSIS                           IF        THEIR              EXPOSURE                  HISTORY            WERE             DIFFERENT


25          'I' HAN         ['r     WAS             () R     () N Fe:     ft'l "'If' H     U to'    W11 A 'J'    IT       WAS?
                                                          t~.      S ~    h   P.    per s               -       I)   i r   P. ~ i.                                  80



  1         A •           Ii E   S 'J'   r 1, I,       W0 U 101)     Ii A V f':             fJ F.~ V E: 1,0 P }<~ 0              AS      tn: S 'I' 0     SIS,            B lJ T


  2     I
        I
            I l'   W0 U L D        HAVE                '1' A KEN     I, 0 N G E: R                  Ii' 0 R          HIM        ']' 0        I)   0    SO.            WHEN


            YOU         R \:t; DUe F;      'r H E DOS F;             0 F            fi: X P 0 SUR E,                       'I' H 1<: N       ( ']'     '1' A K F~ S      M 0 R 1':
       II
  4         TIME          ,]'0   G}4;'r      'PHI':       SAM!';          DTS8ASfi~                           AS        YOU           WOUld)             GJ:o;'j'     ,,'ROM         A


  5         SHORTER              PERIOD                 OF      MORE                EXPOSURK.


  6         Q.            I S    '1' HER E             ANY      WAY           TO            'T' 1:0; }, I.,     A B S OL U l' E .1. 1 Y                '1' H A']'


  7         DISEASE WILL OCCUR                                     IN         AN            INDIVIDUAL FROM ANY

  8         PARTICULAR                     DOSE?


  9                                      MR.           SCHACHTMAN:                                  OBJE:C'rION.                                  ASKED             THE


10          SAME          QUESTION.


:l 1                                     THfo;         COUR'r:                1 ' I. I.             A L I, 0 WIT                      'r 0        BE     A N S WERE D .
       II
       Ii
12     Ii
       "    A •           YOU      CAN'T                 PREDICT.                           YOU               CAN          G E't'        fi' U l,(J - F LIn) G )"; 0
       Ii
13          ASHES'POSIS                    FROM           ()NI'~     MON'P};                    0)'"          F:XPOSURg                      'ro       CHRYSO'T'II,E
       II
14          DUST SUCH AS                           ]    DESCRIBED                           IN          1960               FOR           A        PAR'I'IClJL,AR


is          PATIENT              THAT              I     PUBL[S};~U                         iN          1960.                    HE          HAD         ONLY            ONE


16

17          NU1'HING             TN        Bf<;'l'WEEN             AND              HE          DU';S                01"      ASB.r~S'I'OS                  DIS}<;ASE.


1 8                       YOU      CAN             A I., S 0    G E '1'       r('   H fi:       SAM F:               DIS     1:': A S E           1" ROM


19          CON TIN U 0 USE X PO S lJ R F:,                               H U'T'            YOU' 1, L,                  GET           1 'r        MU C H       SOON E R .


20          Q.            DOCTOR,                  IS     IT       POSSIBLE                            TO            EXCULPATE                         ONE          FIBER


2 1         TYPE                         IN MY ORIGINAL HYPOTHETICAL                                                                         I        GAVE          YOU      OF

22          THE         I N D I V T D U A L WH ()                  I SEX P 0 S                      ft;[)       'r 0       C H R Y SO' I' T I I E              AND


23          AMOSJ'],F.           WHO          lJ014:S          HECOME                  AN           ASBE;S'l'O[)[C,                               IJOF;S       HAVE


24          PRO G RES S JON                  AND          R ..; 5 T R T C 'T' I () N S                        A 1\1 D      1J A 'r ERr 5                 D] A G NOS lt~ lJ


2S          W I '1' H     M 1<: SO '[' H to; I • .I 0 MAr          IS          I 'I'        P () S 51 Ii I.. 14;             'I' ()      ft; X (: U L, P A 'I' fr;       AN 'i
                                                                    (...      S   ch     E'!   per!';         -      U   ire c          t,                                8i


  .1         () N F:       F' I BE R             A S A C A (j S A'l' ) V f<;                        0 R       S 1 (" N 1 F' J CAN T e n N 'I' R I H LJ'I' T N G


  :),        F A C '1' 0 R              I NTH A 'I'            0 E V F~ I.o P MEN 'T'                     0 F       'I' H A 'T'        M E: S 0 '1' H EL 10M A                     AND


  3          OBATH?


  4          A.               NO,            S 1. R;        YOU             CAN N 0 'I'             U0        'I' H A 'I' .             YOU           HAVE            TO


  5          CON SID E R                     'I' H A '1'    A0      re H     'I' H E           F' I A ~; R        'J' Y P 14; S        C 0 Wi' RIB U '1' E D                    'I' 0

  6          'I' H E      FOR MAT ION                       0 fi'     'I' H A '1'        M F; SO,}' H F; IJ 10M A •


  7          Q.               DOCTOR,                      COUld)            YOU               'T'El.[J       'rHI';        IJAUlf<'::S               AND          GF~N'I'I.EMI';N


             o :Eo'    'I' H 1:0:       .T U R Y      WHAT             YOU R             VIE W S              ARE           0 N        'r H I:';      C AU S E S           0 F


  9          M E S 0 '1' H E 1.1 0 M A                     AND        W H A 'J'                           WHAT              YOUR              VIEWS                HAVE            BEEN
        il
10      II   o V F. R         'I' H E        C 0 U R S t<:          0 fo'    Y 0 lJ R            CAREF.R                 REGARDING                            THE         CAUSES


01 1    II
        !:   o F       M 10; S 0 'I' H Ii; L 10M A                  AND           '1' H fi:      P 0 '1' ENe Y              () 1:0'    C H R Y SOlI' ILl!:                 'I' 0
        "
        I:

J ),         CAUSE                  MESOTHELJOMA.                                     H A V fc;       YOU           A L WAY SHE I, n                           'I' H F~    SAM .t':
        II
        Ii

13           o PIN ION                    YOU        H0 L D           'I' 00 A Y         ?

14           A.               T     I   VE       IJ 0 0 K     A'1'          'r HAT             PRO B IJ EMF' 0 R                       '/' H Ii;     G REA 'I' E R              PAR 'I'


15           OF        MY           PROFESSIONAL                             CAREER.                          I '/' 's            A    VERY              0 IFF' J C U 1.. 'I'


16           PI<OBI.EM.

17                            THE            DISEASE                   1.S        A     RARE              DISEASE.                            DOC'l'ORS                   WILL


18           SOMETIMES                           DIAGNOSE                    THE               DISl!:ASE                 AS           MESOTHELIOMA                              AND

        II
        II                    WHf:o~N
19           '1'HI';N                            YOU        REF'JNl';                 THB          DTAGNOSIS                           AND            kELY           ON         ALIJ


20      II   'r H E 'r F; S 'I' S            f     I 'I'    'I' URN SOU '}'                     'T' H A 'I'       CAS 1:';            WAS          N () 'f     A
        iI
21      II   MESO']'HEI.. 1 OMA.
        I
22                            AND            'r HER fc~ V l:!: R S 1:';               1 S        A I J S ()       '1' R U   r.;       PRO H A H IJ Y               M 0 R J-t;


2.3          o }:t"J' EN •               'I'Ht';     O'l'HF;R               WAY         AKOlJND.                         'J'HE         ()oc'ro}{s                  Wll.JJ          CAl.!.


),4          A        CANCI':R               HY      ANO'rHI:t;R                  NAME             AN[)           WHfc;N              YOU          <.7fi;'r    AN


25           OPI-'OR'I'UNl'rV                        '1'0     S'[,UUY                 ·PHt<.:      'PISSUt<;                AND              UO       Aid ..       'J'HE



         I
       i'
        I
       H
       ;1
                                                             C".      S     ch     E'!   P E'! r      !::    -       I)   ire c r.
       II
       I'
       II     CHF;M I CAt,            'l'!';s'rs           ON       'J'HF;         '1'1 SSU~                         '['Ht<;N            YOl)         r I.ND         OU'L'            'fHAT
  1                                                                                                           I




       II     'J' HAT         WH T C H       HAS           C A U S }<~      ()     A         CAN C 1<; R                  O}<'           SAY              'P H 14;   S 'J' 0 MAC H
  2    II                                                                                                                        I                I

       Ii
  3    IiI!   0 Reo LON               () R     0 F'        T HI<;     IJ U N l7              IS             NOT           '1' H A'I'     I     !-HI '}'      I'J'    r S         A

       Ii
  4    iI     ME S () THE JJi 0 M A •
       I,
       10
       i'

  5    i!                     S0     '[' HER E        HAV E           BEE N                  J N            'J' H EPA S T,                     PRO B A B L Y                   W 1 L IJ
       I'
       ,I
  6    il!    CONTINUE                'l'0      HE!; ,       DIAGNOS,]IIC                                   UNC.I:o:RrrAINTIE::->                           AND
       I
       !i
       '0


  7    ,;     INCLARI'l'IES                    THAT             CONJ:i'OUND                           OUR            AS fl,I'J'Y                 AS         DOC'rORS                      'PO
       I:
  8    II     SAY        WITH         ABSOLUTE                      CERTAIN"Y                                WHAT                IS          GOING             TO        HAPPEN

       I
       I      AND        WHAT         HAS         HAPPI:'~NED                      TO           AN           INDIVIDUAL                               CASE.


1.0                           S0     ARE A SON A B I. E                          M E DIe A IJ                     P 0 S I 'r I () N              TOT A K ~                     TS         'I' ()


'1 1          SAY        W~LL,           THES~               FIBERS                      ARk                ALL           CANCRR-CAUSING


12            FIBERS,                Al.THO{jC.;H               'l'Hfi;Y           HAVfo:                   UNEQUAL                      ABIl.JTIES                      'J'O


13            C AU SEC A N C fi: R;                   0 NEe AND 0                                1 'J'       FA S '1' fo~ R              '1' HAN          '1' HE     0   f['   H gR.


14            IN A GIVEN CASk,                                  GIVEN                    30 YEARS                           OF           LIFE             ~XPOSUR~,


I ~           'r H F; R fi:     TS    NOS C           r fo~ N '[' J   EO'   1C           WAY                I N      WH I. C H               Y () U       CAN        SAY              1


16            KNOW            'rHIS      IS       AMOSJ'rl<;                     CAUSf<:D                     r')'        OR         1       KNOW           'l'H.lS            IS


17            C H R Y S () 'I' 1 I,":        'I' H A 'I'     C A lJ S ('; 0              I   'r' .           YOU            CANNo'r                   110      ['r.               1'1"       s

18            NO'J~      POSSIBLE.                         YO lJ      H A V fi;              'T' ()         SAY           B () '1' H         CON 'I' RIB U '[' ..;             j) •



1q            Q.              DOC: '[' 0 R,        0 (D         YOU              1': A R L       ( F: R           TN         Y 0 II RCA R ('; E R


20            INVESTIGATE                       SUSPEC'l'ED                        o'rHF;R                   CAUSES                      OR      SlJGGES'r                     ()'rHE.I<


21            POSSTBIL,I'eIES                         'f'HA'I'        SHOU1JD                         BF:         INVESSTTGA'n;D                               RF:GARDING


22            'rH~       CAUSA'l'ION                  OF        ME:SOTH.I!.:LJOMA?


23            A.              OH,      Y[O;S.              WHI:';N          'I'HI';          ME:so'rHt4:ldOMA                                  F~P[DEMJCt"IRS'I'



24            s'rAR'rESD,             rrHERft~             WEI(.fi~         TWO              PROBJJ~MS,                              S'l'llJI.            AI(E.                ON 1<: ,

2I1HTS'T'ORIt<:S                         WERft:            NO'I'      PI(OPERf.Y                             'f'AKl<:N               ON        PA'I'IF;N'.I'S                  ~o         WE
       II
       j!

                                                              G.        schApArs                       -     Direct.                                         8    .~
           I
               I1IDN"I'           KNOW           WHA'f'         'I'H";V            HAD           BJ:i:E:N         E;XPOSF:D                '1'0.          AN))

  2            SINCE             THESE           ARk          INVISIBLE                          FIBERS               AND         TISSUE                  CHANGES

  .~           0 1" TEN          l S I N V I SIB I, F:,                    THE           I.T N K           W J T HAS B E S 'I' 0 S                     WAS             VAG UE

  4            AND       0 NI, Y          DE M0 N S '1' R A H IJ F:                I NAN YON E - T H T R D                                 0 F'     CAS F: S .


  5                         S0       FOR         A    L () N G          T.I ME,            A L M0 S Ir              [ N'I' () T H 1":             '70S,


  6            MID-'70S,                    IT       REMAINS                   THE          POSITION                       THAT            A      DEFINITE

           I
  7            EXPOSURE                   HIS'I'ORY,                 I, L N K         W I 'I' HAS B EST 0 S ,                          C(}UiJO            ONI,Y               BE:
       II
  8    I       F' 0 U N DIN               ABO U '1'      0 N 1': - ']' H T R n             () (t'      CAS E S •
       \;
                            NOW,            THfS         IS          OVER             WITH             NOW          BECAUSE                    ENOUGH                  WORK


10
       I       HAS       H I:o~ END 0 N 1'~           'I' 0     K NOW              iI' H A 'I'      'I' H A 'I'     JJ INK        ISM 0 R E L I K E                             9 9

       I
11     I:      't' 0   100        PER C EN '}' .                H lJ 'T'       F' () R     '[' H 14;       f." [ R S 'I'    JOY I<: A R S ,


12     I'      DID N ''1'         K NOW •
       I
:13                         SON A T U R A IJ L Y,                       '1' H E       J N QUI R I N G                MIN D             WJ L L          SAY             W H A '1'


14             COULD             HAVE         CAUSED                 THIS            DISEASE?                              AND         I       IJOOKfo~D               AT


15     II         IJ HF
               A L. T . .            P 0 S SIB f JJ I . ']' 1 E S              ,      L 0 0 K F.; D          A'T'    'I' H Ii;    P 0 S SIB I LIT Y                           0 f"
       II,
16     ,I
       I       B ACT E R I A,               L 00 K .,~ D        A 'I'      'I' H E       P 0 S SIB 1 L [ 'I' Y                   0 F       V I R USE S
       II
17     il      BECAUSF:             TH~~Y            AI<E       SMAIJi,               ENOUGH                 'PO     GO          'I'HROUGH                TI SSUES,
       II
1.8    1\      1,00 K I<..; })    A '1'    THE;       P 0 S SIB            r   LIT YOI"                    N fi; W MAT E R I A i., S                   'I' H A 'P


1'1    I       I Nflll S 'j'R Y           HAD        T N'I'RO Due R [}                   I N'I'O           OUR       EN V[ R ON MEN'r.

20             1'" T BE R G 1, ASS            ISO N g;                  W F;       R F: 511: ARC H 1'.: D            'J' H A '1' •             I, () 0 K i:!;]}        A']'
       ,
       i
       !,
21     :1      'PHE      POSSJ BTl.r'PY                       ot<'      WHJ:i;'j'HF:R               PEOPIJr:               COUl,D              (yWJ'
       I


22             AbLEIHTTt!;S                'PO       MA'J'l'~RrALS,                      NA'fLJRA1Ji,Y-OCClJRt<lNG

/..1           MA'I'I";RJAi,S              OR        COUld)             (TI<;'1'      ,,'OtO:1GN                  MA'I'£o~RJAIJS                  IN'J'O          'PHE


24             LUNGS             .,'ROM       AN] MAL,S,                   PI,AN"'S:                   '1'HA rj'     WI GH'I'              IN       SOM£<:


25             SPECfAL              WAY          G~~          INTO             THR          I~UNGS.                  WE          L,OOKfi:n             TNTO              AI,I ..
       i
       I
       I
       I                                                                 G.         schepers                       -       OjrRc~                                          84


        I
        ,
           I   OF'       'I' H 0 S Ii;        rr H 1 N (; S
  J                                                                 .
           I
                              P R () G RI'~ S S I V E:                       R 1'; SEA R CHI, 0 0 K T N (7                            FOR            'r H 0     SE               14; M S    ] N
  I    II                                                                                                                                                                j '['


  ,i           '['HI':     'r] SSlIl';S                 r'AJ 1.}';D                 'PO        Dr;MONS'I'j{AT~~                       '1'HEM.                   fo~XPr:R         [MEN'I'S
           I

  4            W f!: REM A D E                     RY     M Y ~iF: 1, Ii'                 AND           BY       0 'I' H F: R       P EO P I. J:i.:          A Y I N S E R TIN G


 ~      I      FOR E I G N                MA 'I' E j{ 1 A L S I N                           'f' H l<;    P LEU R A L                SPA C f!;         t      [N      THE


 ti    II      ABDOMINAlJ                          CAV] 'I'V             t      TO          SEF:         II::"     THEY             WOUl.D                lJO

 7     II      M E S 0 '1' H F.; IJ 10M A •
        I
 8                            W J:t:      F 0 U N II tAN fJ                         'f' H T S           J SON E              0 F      'I' H 1:0;     TH I NGS              '}' HAT
        I
        I
 9             MADE           INITIAL                     RESEARCH                             DIFFICULT.                             W}<~         fc'OUNU           'PHI':
        I
10

11             M}:O~SO'l'HEIJIOMA                         IS             NONSPECJF Ie.                                     YOU        '}' A K l':         'I' H E    SHA V1 NGS


12             FRO M          A        I.. E A D        P £0; N C .I I,             AND           P U 'L'        T 'r      I WI' 0       'r H E           P l. E U RAt

1.1            YOU'IJL.                G 14; '['    MRso'rH}:O;LIOMA.                                        1F         t OU        P U '['        B I'), SOl:<'           PAP E R


14             I N 'I' H 1': REt                   YOU     I   I.   I,       (,. F: '1'     T 'I' .          Y 0 lJ        CAN        'f' A K E           J, T 'I'T IJ R


15             S NIP P E: T S                0 F        P LAS 'r 1 C                 t      S QUI R'T'             1 '['     1 NTH EKE:                         YOU' I.. IJ          G WI'

iti            T 'I' •        WE          K N E: W 1 to'                 yOU              A R 'T' L F' r c: T A /, 1.. Y            IMP I, A N 'J' E 0               FOR E I G N


17             M A '1' E R [A L S I NTH E                                    P IJ g U RAY 0 U                      c: 0    U 1.1)     MA K ~              M g S 0 '1' H E IJ I 0 M A •


18             IT    1   S A N 0 N S PEe [ }t' T eRE A C 'I'J ON .


1 9                           'I' HEW HOI, E                        SF; C R WI'                'P 0      .L 'P     WAS          HOW           CAN           'I' HI N G S           'r H A 'f'


?-O            A R ft;      f N H A I, EDT H R 0 UGH                                      YOU R          S Y S T I'~ MAN n                    GO          'J' H R 0 UGH            A L I,


21             'rHE        FIIJTRATION                              PROCF:SSES                           AND            PASS          ALl..          THE            DEFE:Nsr;s


/,2            THAT           AR~             IN        OUR              LUNGS                 SO        THAT              WE       CAN            LIVE             IN     A


23             POI SON 0 U S                       r; N v J RON M E: N 'I'                     lJ I K E'~        I. N      C 1 TIE SAN Il                       NOT        DIE.


24             WEe A N                 LTV E;           I N         AM (] 1\1 G S 'T'             H A Cl' F; R .l A             AND           WE          U 0 N "I'        G E 'f'


25             P N gUM 0 N I A                I      BEe A {J S I:i~                WE         H A V 1:';        APE R }t' E C 'I'                 U E 1"' r~ N S }<;      s y S ']' 1': M •
                                                                             (;.          S ~       he per s                   -      J)   ire c      t.




  1                                 'PHJ:';     ASI:H:S'I'O::;                       fi'[HJ:t:R                 rs        'PHE             ONI,Y           'I'HIN(,;              'PHA'],            CAN


  2                G r; 'r     PAS T            'ro H A'l'           H r~ C A lJ S           J:t~      I 'f'    's       NO '1'            'I' 0 X 1 C •                HE;CAUSI<:                   1'1"::;


  :3               A THll.\I             IJI'T"rIJE                  'rHING                  LIKr;                 A     NEEU1.J:o~                 AND              'lOU         CAN           S'T'JCK


  4                TT        'T' H R 0 UGH            AN        J)     'I' H}<:           800 Y                DOE: S N •             'e       SEN S E               1'1' ' S T HER E                     AND


  5                THE         BODY             DOESN'T                           THROW                     OUT          DEFENSE                      WALL                  AND            SO        IT


  6                CAN         MOVE             ALONG                  ANI)               EXERT                    THIS               ELECTRIC                          EFFECT                  UN        THE


  7                eEL L SAN D                      0 A MAG R                     'T' H E 1 RON A                         I N         'r H E        C E I. L S .


  8                                 lJNA        1S        'T'HJ:o:           Dft;OXYRIHONUCLEIC                                                 ACID                 WHICH                 IS        IN


                   'l'HE       NUCLE:l.                         AND               1 'I'      1 SIN                      C E I, .L SeA L IJ                 fi~   D      C H ROM 0 SON E: S .


1 0                C H ROM () SON E: S                    A R r:             ),   J K     r: COM P lJ 'j' 8 R CHI. P S                                     1. N         A       COM P U '1' E: R


l ]                AND         'r HEY           H AV      fi~        M ]:I; M () R Y                rN         '1' H 1': M •               A N [)     WH A 'J'              'I' H :Eo: Y

12                 REM E M HER                  I S       WH I':: R r;              ]) ( 1)            I,         C E 1, I.           NO.           Are 0 M E                     FRO M ?


13                 WHO         WAS            MY      FATHER?                                       WHO           WAS              MY          G RAN 0 F A 'I' H}<; RAN                         f)     WHO


i 4                WAS        H l S           F A 'f H E Ri                         MY              JOB            lS          TO          STAY            THE              SAME               SO      THAT


15                 ALL        OF        US          LOOK               ALIKE.


16                                  NOW,            I F         YOU               S It' J C K               AN          AS B E: S TO S                FIB E R                   T H R 0 UGH               0 NE


17            i    OF        'PHOSF;            COMPUTER                            CH1PS                      BECAUSE                         IT     IS             No'r 'rOXIe,                         YOU

       :1
18     liD 0 N               I,},     DES T ROY                      J '1'        H WI'             YOU           CAN              K NO C K          0 UTA                      LIT 'r L l:!:
       Ii
19     II
       II          E: IJ EM E N 'I'           TN      I 'J'          AND            or H fo:          COM P U 'r E R                       Wf L L          Kg E P               0N
       11

20     II          FUNC'I'TONING.                                    HUT            SUPPOS 1 NG                                YOU         I   RE    A           TYPEWR1'J'ER


21     'Iii   II   COM P U '1' E R              IJ I K 8             () VEt(              H g R E '?                    SHE           S T R. IKE S                   'r H to;     tJ E 'I' T }t~ f{       P.


22     I'          1 N S '1' E A [J           01"     'I' Y PIN G P O N                                     'I' H 1';    PIE!; CEO f"                      PAP          :Eo~ R,      IT         'J' Y PES


23     I           T    B E: C AU Sfi;              IT' S              'e H}<;            N f';     x '}'      I, to; '[IfI'   1': R •          ANn              COM        purr 1'; K S             W I L I,
       !
       !
). 4               DO        'T' HAT          WHEN              'I' H 1': Y         (.a~    'T'       A        L, I 'r'I' IJ fi:           S PEe K               () F       [) lJ S T          1N      'T' H to.: M


2S                 OR        GE'!,      'POO          WARM.                         'P H:r: Y               WI J. 1.           l; 0        W RON G •                    'I'HA'l"           S
     II
      I


                                                          G.      Scheper!';               -        Direct.                                              86
     I
      I
      I
 1                                                                          'l'HA'f'        [S        HOW          ASBfi:s'ros                         I"IBF:RS


     I     CAUSE             THESE          DISEASES.

      I                                                                               1" 1 R S 'J'      SUS PEe T                              A '1'     A M 0 S ] ')' E
 3   ,I    Q.              Doc'rOR,             WHEN           [) T D    Y 0 lJ                                                        I]' H


 4
     III
     i     MIG H T           B }<;    A    C 0 WI' R I H WI' 1 N G              F ACT 0 R             'r 0     'I' H E        D EVE 1J 0 P MEN T                           0 F

     i
 5         MESOTHELIOMA                         IN        HUMANS?

 6
     i
     Ii    A.              :l 9 4 9       WHEN       1     .fi' 0 UN D      THO S F;           VERY            S EVE REP bE U R A L
     II
     I.
 7   Ii    C HAN G}<; S              .I NTH 0 S E          MEN          W0 R KIN GAT                    il" H F:        AM () S [T E                   MIN"~             AND


      I    MIU.

 9         Q.              AND        WHEN        DID          YOU       FIR S T           SUS P f<; C 'II              'f' H A 'I'      0 R           B 1'; [, 1   F~   V £0;

10         T HAT           C ROC J DOL. I 'I" E            WAS                        I'M           SOI<RY,               CHRYSOT1LE.


11         WHEN            DID        YOU       F'.1 R S 'I'      BEL I .fi; V      r; T H A 'I'        'l' H A    rr      WAS           THE             C AUS8


12         OR      COUIJ\)            HE    A     CAUSE            OF      Mfo;SOTHEl.IOMA                              IN       HUMANS?

13                         1949           WHEN       I     CAME':        'l'O       'PHE       SARANAC                    1.ABORA'I'ORY                             AND

14         THERE             WERE          TWO       CASES              SlTT1NG                THAT            WERE              REGISTERED                                IN

15         THE       1:"   J L E SOl"           '}' H E     S A RAN A C             1. ABO R A 'I' 0 R Y                AS       QUE BEe

16         ASBEs'ros                  MINRRS              AND      MIIJIJERS.                       THE        WHOLE                   ~ILE              K~PT



17         CANCER               CASES           FROM           THERE.

18         Q.              AND        WHEN        WE R 1:';       YOU      CON V INC 8 D                     T H A "f'       C H R Y SOT I LEW AS

19         A     C A USA 'r I V 1'-':       ft' ACT () R          IN     'I' H F:     [) E V ft: L. () P MEN T               0   }<'



20         MESOTHELIOMA                         IN        HUMANS?

           A.              FIRMLY           AND           AHSOLUTELY                    1979.

22         Q.              AND        HOW       WAS         l'r     YOU         CAME           '1'0     BE         CONY LNCED                            01:"


23         THAT,             DOCTOR?

24         A .             'I' W()    fi'R ENe H          R "'; SEA R C H           W0 R K}<; R S            PRE SEN rr E D                      A       PAP E R

25         HER F.          INN E W          Y0 R K         C I 'I' Y     AND         'I' H 1:'; Y     IJ £I; SCI< 1 BED                  1.' H E
                                                              G.       Schepers                   -     LJirect"_                                        87



   1            CHI L 0        }o{   EN    0 F    f:o' A C '1' 0 R Y    W0 R Kfi~ R S             r N        F RAN C E             WHO          H A I)      W() R K Eo; 0


   2            IN     CHRYSOTIL~                        FABRI<;-MAKING                           AND           THEY           COME             HOME          WITH


   3            'I'HF.:IR            CLOTHF.:S           TMPREGNArpED                       WI'rH            Gl,ASSLIKE                       FIBERS              AND

   4            THE        FIBERS                DROPPED               ON     THE           CARPETS                    AND         THEIR             CHILDREN


   5            GOT        MESOTHELIOMA.                               AND        THEY            HAD           ELECTRON                      MICROSCOPES


   h            AVAII,ABLE                    AND        WERE          ABLE           TO         DEMONSTRATE                           CHRYSOTILE

   7            FIB E R S             NO'!'      0 N 1, YIN            THE        I. U N G S          0 F      '1.' H E     CHI 1, IJ R EN,                 'I' H E


   8            CHILDREN                   WERE          VERY          YOUNG             CHILDREN.                          ONE          WAS         'I'HRgE


   9            YEARS                OLD      AND        ONE         OTHER            SEVEN             YEARS               OLD.                BUT

10
        II  I
                AC'I'UAI,LY                STICKl NG                 IN'I'O       THE            TUMOR            THROUGH                     VISCERAL

11      II                                                      'I' HAT       C () N V T N C}o~ 0              M F.:      'I' H A 'p     WEN E E; D               NO'}'
        II
1 :/.
        II      HAV E          ANY         00 U B 'I'      ANY M 0 R E            'r HAT          T HIS           F' I H F: R          w r I., L     A J, S U
            I
13              CAUSE                MESOTHEL10MA.

14
            I   Q.             IlOC'roR,             YOU'Vf:o:          Al.SO            '1'AI,KED             AHOU'l'             'rHE        CHRYSOTII,E

]5
        I!
        I,      AS     1 ']'         ARR I VE S          AFT E: R       IT    J   S      M1 I, L fo:    l)     r' ROM          A       PI. A N'I'        AND          I 'I'
        I'
        I

        "
        I
16      I:      HAS        CON TAM 1 N A N'j' S                 T NIT.
        ,

        l
        ':
17                             ARE         ANY       OF      THOSE            CONTAMINANTS                                CAPABLE                  OF
        I'
        I
18      I:      CAUSING                   MESOTHELIOMA                      ON        THEIR             OWN?

19      I!      A.             THERE'S               A     THEORY             TREMOL[')'E                      COUl,O              DO         I'r.          'l'H:r~   R f.i~
        I:
        ,
20      I'      ARE        SCIENTIFIC                      DOCTORS                WHO            WRITE            PAPERS                 ALONG              THE
        I




21      I,      L J N E SOft'              S U G G E S 11'1 N G         'I' HAT          'I'R E M 0     j,   I 'I' E      CAN          DOl 'I' •              AND

22              A'l'   A       CON FER ENe F:                T HAT          WAS          HE L DIN                 NEW          YO R K          C I 'I' Y      A

23              MONTH                AGO      SOMEBODY                 FROM                           [} 0 C 'I' 0 R        fo' ROM           COR S :I C A


2.4                                           MI<.       SCHACH'f'MAN:                           EXCUSE                Mfo:.           J'M         GOING              TO

25              o B ,J g   C 'r       UN L E S S         '1' H J S     HAS        H F.   r.; N    P U HI, -l S H 1<; DAN                 I)    .('   V F:     H A [)
                                                           G.        Schepers                            -     DirAcr                                           88


              SOME         ACCESS              TO       IT.              THIS              IS            BLATANT                  HEARSAY                   AND             I'VE


    2         HAD        NO       NOTICE              ABOUT              SOME              DUCTOR                      FROM           CORSICA.


    .3                                    '1'HF.      COURT:                     MAYBE                   T     BETTER                 HEAR          YOU             AT


    4         SIDgBAR.


    5                                                           (ON          THE           RECORD)


    6                                     MR.         SCHACHTMAN:                                  YOUR                HONOR,               J     OBJECT'                   rI'O
          I
         I'
    7    Ii              S C H F: P 1:': R S       rrEo;!. [, ] N GUS                 ABO 0'['                 W HAT          S 0 ME            {) 0 C TOR              FRO M
         "i   [) l< •


    8         C () R S J CAS AID                   ABO U '1'         COR SIC A                     EX P 0 S lJ R £0; S .                    MR..


    9         MC        CONNELL               GAVE         M~        A       TRANSCRIPT                                OF DR.               SCHEPERS'


10            PROPOSED                  TESTIMONY.                           HE       SAT D                  T HIS          TS        W H A rl'     H.Et;   I   S       GO I N G

11            'I'O      TESTIFY               AROU'I'.               'r HER F;         I   S       NOM E N r], TON                      TNT HER E                       ABO U T


12            THIS         CORSICA                 STUDY.                    1       nON       I   '1'       K NOW          ANY rl' H I N GAB 0 U '1'


1 .1          COR SIC A               S 'I' U D Y .        I      DON'T               EVEN                   THINK            J       CAN         GET           MY


14            HANDS              ON     ANY        SUCH           STUDY               BECAUSE                          IT     WAS           SOMETHING


15            'I' HAT      WAS          P R F; SEN '1' E lJ          A 'T'       A    CON FER ENe E •                                 U N l. g S S          1 '1'   I   S


16            B.Et~EN      WRITTEN                 UP      I      HAVE               NO'j'HING                    '1'0      CHALLENGE                       'rHJ:i;


17            DOCTOR              WITH.               lT        IS       MOST              GROSS                  FORM            OF        HgARSAY


18            BECAUSE                 I'M      DEPRIVED                      OF       MY           RIGH'l'               OF       CONFRONTA'l'ION.


19                                        I    OBJECT.


20                                        MR.         M ceo NNE L IJ :                             OKAY.                    FIRST               'T'H fNG            IS


?   'j        WHAT         'j'   HE     DOC '1' 0 R        J S       'I' E S 'n ft' YIN G                      ff' 0     NOW          I S       'I'R EM 0 LIT E


22            CAN       CAUSE             MF:sor['Hf':L,lOMA.                              HIS               DOC 'I' () R         R A lSI'; Il        'r R F; M 0           IJ I 'J' E


              I NTH F;            CAS B •             HE        S~RV~D                US           A         DRF~NSE                  R~PONT                WHICH


24            S A I D A M 0 S 1 r1' g              C AU S       F; D 'I' H}<~         M f.o; S 0         'r H to;!.. 10M A        .


                                          W H to; N     W £0;     WI'; N 'I'         U PAN D                   'I' 0 () K     HIS           I) () C'[' () N     I   S
  1            'l"I:'~S'rlMONY,                HTS         1l0C'POR                  RAlSF;n                       'J'Hg       FACOI'         "I'l-tA'I'     'I'I·n:MOLol'I"f:i;


               COU1I[)      CAllSI:';             ME:S0'11 HF:I,TOMA •                                    H F:        K N }<; W 'I' HAT               'I' HIS       DOC 'I' 0 R


  .3           W0 U 1.1)    'r F: S '1" T F Y          ']' H A 'I'     ')' R F: M () I .. J 'J" fi:                CAN         C A lJ S Eo;     Ivl~: SO     "r HE; I, TOM A
  4            H F: C A U SF;       I '1"      WAS         JN        'I' H r:        '1' RAN S CRt P'r                         INC AMP A ELI I                      AND       I 'I'

 5             WAS       RA I S8      n A SAN                    1 S SUE                 AY           'T' H 1:':     D E to' fi: N S"~        I 1\1    '1' H 1':    CAS 14; ,


 6             AND       T HIS        DOC TOR                  T F: S T I F I to: D                   '}' H A 'f'       'I" REM 0 TJ 1 'f F:           CAN          C A U S F:

 7             MESO'rHEIITOMA.


  8                                         MR.        SCHACH'I'MAN:                                      YOUR             HONOR,                lNSOFAR                 AS      --


 9                                          THE        COURT:                        THE              OBJECTION                         HAS           TO     DO       WITH


10             THE       FACT         THAT             THIS             IS           NEW              MATTER.                       l     TH:INK             WE'VE


11     liD E A IJ 'I'       W T T HAN                  A W ft' U IJ       I I 0 '1'        0   ):r'      H EAR SAY                  A L IJ      IJ' HEW A Y
       .1


12         i   T H R 0 U (y H,        FA IdJ S I N                   '1' HE          C A 'I' ..: G 0 R Y                0 F'     E P IDE M I 0 LOG Y ,


13         I   SCI EN 'I' I 14' 1 C            D A 'I' A       0 R     N0       °r       1S           VERY              Q U F: S ')' ION A B i., E •

           I
14         i                                MR.        S C HAC H '1' MAN:                                 tl Efl'       ME       JUST           SAY,               YOUR


15     II      HONOR,           I     H A V t':        'I' a     M A K Ji:           A     'r A C "J' I CAL                    DEC lSI 0 N                 WH E T HI'; R         1
       II
16             WANT        TO       CROSS-EXAMINE
       II
       II1
       ~



17                                          THE        COURT:                        T     UNDERS"J1AND.                                  YOUR             OBJECTION{


18     i:1     AS    I     UNDERSTAND                          1'1',      IS             BASED                     ON      THE          FACT           THIS           IS      NEW


19     II      MATTER           AND            IS      NOT           CONTAINfo;n                             IN         ANY         REPOR.T.                       YOU'RE
       Ii
20             CON TEN DIN G                   SUR P R l S E:             0 R            P R }<; lJ lJ DIe E                   BY       REA SON              0 FAN Y
       II
       t:
21             OPINION              HE        MIGHT              HAVE                AS        'ro           TRr:MOIJ1"rE                     WHICH                MIGHT
       II
22     II      RELY        UPON             WHAT           WAS         EXPRESSED


2.3    I
       i
                                            MR.        SCHACH'I'MAN:                                     A         MONTH            AGO


?-4                                         'I" H F.   C 0 U .1<'1' :                - -       BY            S 0 M EON E                E lJ S It: •


25                                          MR.        Me        CON N F: I, I I           :                       H A V 1<:     AN        I D}<; A •              HOW
                                                                                                                                              9li



        1                                         'rHIS?                                                   WH8N       Wft~     s'rop          IN         A


        2         FP;W MINUTES                    I                   SPEAK 'T'O 'PH.E                     DOCTOR,             ASK        HIM            IF'

        3         H8        CAN ANSWER                 THE QUESTION                         WITHOUT                KEFERENCE TO WH.AT

        4         HAPPENED                             I.    DON'T          KNOW WHAT HE'S                            TALKING ABOUT

        5         EI'l'HER.

        6                                   MR.        SCHACHTMAN:                          I   KNOW              WHAT HE'S               TALKING

        7    ;'   ABOUT.
             Ii
             II
        8                                   THf'~      COUR'!':             HE:' S 'PA1JKING ABOU'1' SOMETHING

        9
             II   BY WAY OF,                  I       SUPPOSE,              RE F r:R ENe            r.:    '['0    WH A'('     'rOOK          p [,ACE


      10          IN A MEETING A MONTH AGO.

      11
             II                             MR.        MC        CONNr~LIJ:                 [   UNDERSTAND THAT.                                    I

             Ii
      12     Ii   MEAN,          I     DON' 'I'        KNOW '1' HE             DE']' Al IJ S (H'                  WHAT       H F; ,   S
L-_

      13     Ii   REFERRING TO.

      14                                    'rHE COURT:                     YOU       I   RE    NOT AWARE OF THA'I'

      15          MEETING A MONTH AGO?

      16                                    MR.        SCHACHTMAN:                          I   KNEW              SUCH A MEETING

      17          'I' 0 0   K P I. ACE,           BurI'      I     DON' T H A V E 'r H E PRO C E E lJ r NG .

      18                                    rr H F:    C 0 U R 'I' :        YOUR            PEOPt,E               AKE NOT             IN ANY WAY

      19          ACQUATNTED WHA'l' TOOK                                  PIJACE AT 'j'HArp                        ME£o~TING?


      ;)'0                                  MR.        SCHAC H'l'MAN:                      NO   r         'I'HAT' S 'fRUE.                    1     WAS

      21          NOT        INVITfo;O.                I     DON'T HAVE ANY                               DOCTORS            WHO ATTENDED.

      22          PLUS,         MY CONCERN                       ]S    THIS           DOCTOR               CAN SAY             ANYTHING

      23          ABOUT WHAT                  WAS           COMMUNICATED TO                               HIM      AND]          HAVE NO WAY

      24          o fo'     GO I N G    () LJ TAN D              C H lt~ C KIN C.:'       WH E T H Eo: R T H A r[,       's      'I' R U}i;       0 I<


      25          NOT.           IF     ]     HAD           KNOWN
                                                                                                                                                                9 l



       1                                          MR.         MC       CON N F.: L I, :          to"   rNE        •            I   I   M   NO '1'       P U [, lJ l N G         A


       2         F'AS'f          ONE             ON    YOU.              I    {) I fJ N "II       K NOW               H r;         WAS       GO 1 N G           ']' 0

       3         ME; N T ION                WHAT            HAP PEN ED              L, A S'I'    M() N'l' H               In 'I' HER.


       4                                          THE<:       COUR ']':             YOU         WANT              TO           RF.:FRAMF.:              YOUR


       5         QU ES'fl ON?


       6                                          MR.         Me CONNELlJ:                       F' IRS T                 T H TN G            I   I   l, I,    MA K E


       7         SURE           WHEN              WE        BREAK            FOR      LUNCH,                    l'LL               MAKE           SURE          HF.:      CAN


       8         AN S W f': R           J   'r    WI'] I H () U '{'      R F: F   to; R ENe r;         'II ()     WHAT                 HAP P      1': NED       A        M 0 WI' H


       9         AGO.


      10    I:
            ,)
                                                  T H F.      CO U R T :            I ' 1,1,     PER MIT                       YOU         TOR E F RAM E
            Ii
      11    r
            Ii
                 YOU R          QUE S 'I' TON                 NOW        WIT H        '1' H E    DOC TOR                       AND         S E t:i;      I F    H 1:0:    CAN

            "
      12         AN S W E R            11'        WI']' H 0 U 'T'        ANY       REF' £0: R EN C F:                 of' ()       of' HIS        ME E TIN G              A

'--
      13         MON'rH               AGO.             IF,         OF        COURSE,             AT             'T'HF:         BREAK              YOU          FIND


      14    I:   '1' H A 'r     '.I' HER E        's        S () M R     () 'r HER       BAS T S                FOR            U'T' I I, I   z. I     NG       IT,        I ' J.IJ
            I;
            i'
      15    I,   H.E;AR         YOU              TH8N.
            I
      16    !                                     MR.         Me       CONN El,!.,:              'I' HE           IMP 0 R. 'I' AN']'                  POT N'T' S          TO


      17         ME,          ~J lJ   D G E,          I S     NO 'II    WHAT          HAP PEN E U                     A        M 0 N 'I' HAG 0 •                    ')' H f!~


      18         MAN          'PES'IIIFIED

      19                                          THJ:i;      C:OUR'l':             SUPPOSE                     YOU            REFRAME                  YOUR


      20         QUESTION                        ON    THE         BASlS           OF        NUT          GIVfNG                       THE        DOCTOR


      21         RELYING                    UPON            ANYTHING               HE        MAY          HAVE                 HEARD              A     MONTH             AGO.


      22                                          MR.        MC        CONNELl,:                 OKAY.


      23                                          THE        COU£<')':              A J dJ      RIG H'l' ?


      24                                          MR.
                                                  .          Me        CONNEld.,:                YES,                 SIR •


      ?OS                                         THF;        COUR'P:               DO       'j'HA'!'.
       I:
       I'

                                                         G.        Sch~per~                  -     oirec~                                q2
        I
  :1
       II                                              ( 0 P t': NCO U R 'J' )


  2
        I
        l
             BY     MR.         MC         CONNELL:
        I
       II
  .3         Q.            )lOC'I'OR,             W1THOUT                   Rfo~F'ERE:NCE            TO      WHA'r        MAY       HAVF;
       II
  4          HAPPENED                  AT     THR        CONFERENCE                      A       MONTH           AGO,       HAVE
       II
   5
       II
       :1
             SCIENTIFIC                     S'rUIllES              SHOWN            'T'HAT         ']'RF:MOI,I'I'E          CAN      CAUSE


  6          MF;SO'PHELIOMA?
       II
  7    I!I   A.            OH,        YES.             THkRE                HAVE      BEEN           STUDIES              OF       THE


  8          AS B   r~   S ')' 0 S    MIN F: SAN D                 MIl, IJ S        JN       CAN A IJ A          HY    0 R.        C HURG ,

  q          ANOTHER                 DR.      CHURG             FROM           CANADA:               WHO         HAS      DEMONS'IIR.ATED


10           THAT          WITH            HIGH        DEGREE                OF     PROBABILfTY                       YOU      CAN       FJND


1I           TREMOLITE                     FIBERS            lN         THE       LUNGS            OF       PERSONS            WITH

12           MESOTHELIOMA                         OF     THE            PLEURA           OPPOS[TE                   THE     LUNG.


13                         AND        'I'HERE          WAS         A        STUDY        DONE           [N       NORTH         ITALY,


14           PROBABLY                 SOMt':         YEARS              AGO,        I'VE           FORGOTTEN                THE      AUTHOR'S


15           NAME,           WHERE            TH~RE'S                   A    TREMOLITE                  MINE          AND

16           MESOTHELIOMA                         CASES            WERE           rJl:<;SCRI AED             FROM         ']'HERE.

17                         THERE'S                ANOTHER                   STUDY        DONE           IN       THE      ]SLAND          OF

1X           C Y P R US         IN         T Hg      ME 01 T ERR A N E A N                   WH F; R E       'rR EM 0 1, IT E        1S       MIN F: 0

19           AS     'rREMOJJ.I 'rr;,                 NO'L'      ANY'I'HING               ELSE,              AND       MESOTHEIJTOMA


20           HAS         BEEN         DESCRIBED                    FROM           THERE.                THER.E         IS A PLACE OlJT

;),1         TN     TURKEY                 WHERE         VILLAGERS                    HAD          PLAS,]'ERED              THEIR         HOUSES

2),          WITH          STUCCO             AND        WHOf.JO:            EPII)Ji;MTC             01:"    M.f.i:SO'l'H~a.IOMA              AROSE<;

;),3                                                                              ANALYSIS                  OF      THOSE


24           CON'PENT                OF'    'lIHF:     S'l'UCCO              SHOWF;n             '{'HA'f'    ['I'    WAS       A    MJX'I'URF~


).5          o F'   A      S {J H S 'J' A N C J:t;     C A I,   l.f·~   0    E: R J () N [ T F;      ANn         CHI< Y SOT II do':
      \'
                                                              (;.     ~   c h e per s               -       I)   ire c        t.                                   91


  J           A S B f.c~ S '[' 0 S    FIB E R S .                   NOB 0      ny     I   S      Ii J:i; E NAB l, 1:';                   'I' 0        ... ROD (J C ,..;




  3           C H R Y SOT 1 L         ft:    A~       '1' H 8       FA C 'I' 0 R          to' 0 R       'j' HEM E SOT HE: I, 10M A .


 4            Q.          '1' H E     'r REM 0        I, 1 T r;      0 R       C H R Y S 0 "t' I            t, E .?

              A•           HMM?

              Q.          TREMOLITE                     OR          CHRYSOTJLE?

 7            A •         'f' HIS           IS    C H R Y S 0 'P I [J 1:<-:          IN          T HIS            CAS         J:t~   •            ]     fi' 0 R G () 'I'     YO lJ R


  8           QUE S ']' TON           WAS         A Ii 0 urI'        'rR E: M () L 1 'I' E •                     TREMOLITE                              IS      PRESENT

 9            IN       THft~    IJUNG            TISSUES                  AND        LARYNX                      AND          COl.ON                    ,['ISSUES                 AND


10            KIDNEYS                AND         BLADDER,                    URINARY                    BLADDER                          OF           INDIVIDUALLY


11            EVERY            PERSON             WHO           HAS          WORKED                 WITH              CHRYSOTILE


12        ,   ASBES,['OS.                    SOl T            's     UN I V E R SAL I. Y                         PRE SEN T                        J NTH E             BOD Y

13            TISSUES                IN      CHRYSOTILE                        WORKERS.

14                         AND        DOES            THE           MILLING                   PROCESS                    WH[CH                        YOU       HAVE

15            SEE NAN 0               0 B S E R V ED,                DOE S           'I' H A '1'        R J:t~ M 0 V E               'I' HI''':       'J'R EM () 1, J '1' E




17    ,       A.          OH,         NO,         NOt           NO.            TF         YOU'l' R Y                  'I' 0          MIL I I            C H R Y S 0 'I' T t, fo~
      'I
      Ii
18    iIso             FIN E         AS'}' ()         l) ()     'PHA'I',         T        DON       I '}'        KNOW                HOW              YOU       WOULD              00
      I'
      I
      I
19    I
      I
              I't' •      YO (J       W0 U L D          DE      ~   T ROY        '1' H F~        FIB ERA N I)                            A Slit<; ~ 't' 0 S           J S

20    I       VAIJUED           S8CAUSE                 r'e's             IN     F J HER                ft' 0 R M •                  YOU'D                H A V fo;        'r 0
      !I
21            MILL        IT         TO      TOTALLY                 DESTROY                     IT         AND          TH8N                     YOU'D           HAVE            '1'0
      !1
22    II      CHEMICALLY                     EXTRACT                 1 'I'     AND            'I' H A 'I'   's        NOT                PO SST B 1, E •

      I                                                                                                                                                         r '
      ! Q.
23                        DOCTOR,                 ONE           MORE           QUES'l'TON                        ON      'J'HA'l'                                     M
      i

24            SORRY            TOO.              rs     THERE                ANY          SAFE              LEVEL                    OF           EXPOSURE                   TO


2 5           AS B E S '1' 0 S        R F: GAR [) I N (;             THE         C A USA 'I' JON                      0 fo'          M F; S () '1' HE IJ J 0 M A ?
      Ii
      p
      "
      Ii
      II                                                        (T.         S     r h e per R               -       I) ;    r er      T.                              94
      II
      H
      I,
  j   I' A.                 NO.              [j<'       '1' HER,    r:      I.   s , r 'I' 's               NO 'I'          8 g EN             £0' 0 U N U •
      II
  2   !I      ACTUAL,                               ONl,Y           SA,,'E               (,B;Vfo:l,         IS           THEORETICAI,LY                               ZERO.
      Iii
      ~
      I,
 3    iI Q.                 00 C 'r 0 R,O N                     A        WHO LED 1 \:"                   r' E R F; N'f'           POI NT.                    '['HERE                WAS
      Ii
      p
  4           A       QUESTION                  'rHA']'         WAS              RAISED                  YES'l'ERDAY                       I     CAN                           DOES
      II
 5            '1' REM 0 L I 'I' E           EVE ROC CUR                              I N        '1' A L C ?
      iIil
 6    II      A.            IT       OCCURS                  IN          CERTAIN                     FORMS                 OF         TALC.
      q

          I
 7    it
      I:
              CONSISTS                 OF           THREE                TYPES                  OF       TALC.                    '1' HER F;       's        COS MF; 'r I C
      I~
 8    II      TALC          SUCH            AS          LADIES                   PUT            ON       THEIR                   FACES.                 I       SUPPOSE
      II
 9        I   SOME          MEN        'roo.                THAT                 IS           CALLED               TALC,                   BUT        IT        IS         A
          I
          I
10        !   V E GET A B LJ E              MA 'I' E I< I A I..             COM E S               ft' ROM          A       P 1, A N'I'          C A JJ I, E D         0 RYZ

11            ROO'f.

12    II
      I                    'I' H B~ NTH }<; R 1":               I S A C R Y S 'I' ALL I N E                                      SOU R CEO F'                   T A I, C            DOW N
      I
13            1N      G E () R G I A,               A     FEW            P LAC E S                L 1 KE           'I' H A']'         J N       AM E RIC A,                    WH    rCH
      I
      I
      ,
      I
14            CAN         Y J E IJ D        A       F' I N E:       '1' A I., c:              F' JJ A K E       '1' ALe,              AND         '1' H A 'I'       I S
      i                                                                              I




15            ASBESTOS                 FREE.                    NOW,                 INS 0 M g                  1, 0 C A 'r I () N S              '}' HER E           1S

16            '1' RE M 0 JJ I '1' E         IN          W J '1' H        l' HEir A 1, C •

17            Q•            AND        WHAT               S P E C I 1"' I C                   1,0 CAT ION                  IN         'r HIS          CO UN']' R Y ,

18            SIR?

19            A.            A    FEW            Pl,ACES                  SOMEWHERE                          IN           GJ:i';OR(;IA             AND           A     FEW

20            DOWN          SOUTH.                      'I'HA'r          'rREMOJJI'l'E                      HAS            'PHE            SAM},:       NAME               AS

21            TREMOLITE                     8U'1'         IT        ] S          <:R YSTAl,LINE                            'PREMOI,I'j',,;.                         1'1'       IS

22            THE                      'I' 0        MA K E          1 '1'        'I' H 1:':     H B: S 'r       0 l't'     fo' 0 R M           YOU      H A V I':          'I' ()


23            HAV E         'I' HE     fi'l B ,F, R S           l' H R E E               'I' T M fo~ S      AS           L,O N GAS                ']' H}<~      '1' HI C K N to: s S


24            o ft'   A     'J; H I N G         L J K fo;       'I' HIS             V T A I,         W() U 1., I)          j\J   0T        B8     A     1" I B B R

2")           BECAUSE:               T'],       IS        '1'00          FAT'            IN       COMPARISON                               WI'rH        I'I'S         I,I':NG'PH;
                                                   (~.          s c h e per s             -     D     ire c       t.




WHER F: A S            'r H E         PEN C T I,                HAS      'I' H 1':    RIG H 'I'            S HAP E               r1' 0      BE       A     F' I B E R


BECAUSE                IT        IS          MORE               THAN        THREE               TIMES                  AS        LONG              AS      IT      IS

THICK.

Q.              80     IF        A        FIBER                 IS     ACTUAL                 DIMENS10NAL                                DEFlNITION?


A.              YES.             THERE                  IS       A MINE UP                       TN        UPSTATE                       NEW         YORK

CALLED               VANDERBILT                           MINE           WHERE                A FORM OF INDUSTRIAL

'T' A I.. C      r SMA D E                'I' H A '['      I SUS Eo: DIN                      '1' H EPA PER                      I N D U S 'r R Y t

PAP E R           M T (, I. S     I       AND           T rr    's     P U'I'        0N       '1' H E      S H F: E '1' SO!"                  PAP 1": R         AS

THEY            ROLL          ACROSS                    ROLLERS.                      '}'0       nOT H A'r                   V F:}( Y         /:" A S'T'      IN

ORDER             TO        MAKE:            l,ARGE              QUAW1'lTIES                          OF       I'l'      AND             'I'H£o~


FRICTION                    OF        THE           PAPER              WOULD              STOP             THE           ROLLERS,                        SO

THE Y           Purr        TAL CON                     1 'I'    AND        T HAT             K:r N n          0 F'      T A I, C           CON 'I' A INS            A

VE RY           SMA I, L         QUA N T 1'1' Y                  0 F    'r R F: MOL rr E,                      AS B g S ']' () S              TR E MOL I 'I' E

FIBERS.                     BUT           THAT'S                 THE        ONLY              Pl,ACE                     KNOW               WHER f<:          'fHAT


OCCURS.

Q•              AND         M E 0 I C A I,              rl' A I, C,      DOC '1' 0 RID 0 E S                           M E D:I CAL                 T A I, C

COME            FROM          THAT                MINE           MENTIONED                       IN        NEW           YORK               THAT           HAS

rrRl':MOI.I'pg                IN          ] 'I'?

A .             r(' HAT       W0 lJ I,[)            N () 'r      REP F. R M 1 'I' 'J' to: D                BY          'I' H E      F 0 0 DAN D


DRUG            ADMINISTRATION.                                        'I'HERF.' S              A       J,AW           TN        rl'Ht:o~     ft'OOU


ADM IN 1 S 'I' R A '[' ( 0 N                      R F: ~ U J R IN G             'I' H A'1'       A 1.1.,       S LJ B 8 TAN C E 8                    T HAT


ARE           USE D         to' 0 R M to; DIe I N A I J                  P lJ R P 0 S Ii: S             () R      to' 0 }(       F 00 I)           PUR P 0 S F: S


M U 8 'I'       ME E '1'      'I' H to~      S P ft; c     r ft' J C A 'PI 0         NS       0 to'     ']' H E        E' 0 0 IJ         AND         DR U G

ADMINfSTRATION                                    IN      WASHING'T'ON                        AND          NO          'I'AJJ C          WOULD             BE


P   fi~   R M I '["I' E D     '1' 0       B to;    0 N          'r' HEM ARK 14; ~p               [F        T Teo WI' Al N S                          it' 1 B R 0 lJ S
                                                          (~.        s c h e per s             -     f)   ire c      t.                             96


           T REM 0 IJ 1 ']' E .

           Q.         ft' 0 f<   (J   S ft:     AS        M E D I CAL            T A I .. C ,        RJ(~H'T'?



                      Doc'rOR,                  CAN          Y 0 LJ       TEL L          MEl F'            'I' H E        UN I '].   t': D   S 'I' A 'T' F: S


 4         GOVERNMENT                   HAS             MAD~          A    SCIENTIFlC                          FINDING                 OF      ¥ACT


 5         THAT       CHRYSOTILft:                        CANNOT              BE         IMPLICATED                         IN       '['HE


 6         CAlJSAII'ION               (H'       ME:SO'}'HEl.IOMA?

 7                    NO.

 8                    HA S       TH E           [)f<;   P AR 'I'MEN'T'           0 fi'       fi~NV   1 RONM f<~N,]' AI.,               P RO'T'F.CT I ON

 9         O¥     THE       UNITED                 STATES                 GOVERNMENT                       MADK             SUCH             A FJNDING

10         Or'    FACT?

11         A.         NOT        THAT              I      KNOW            OF,       NO.

12    II   Q.         AND        DID            YOU          HAVE          RESl-'ONSJBII,IIT'Y                              WHIt,,,,:        All'    'J'HE
       I
l.i    I   v E ']' ERA N SAD MIN                   I S 'T' R A 'I' ION           FOR           I N '1' ERA C 'I' I N G               WIT H          THE         EPA

14    II   AND      K NOW I N G               T H}O;      R to; (7 In, A II' JON S ?


15         A.         YES.              THAT'S                  WHY        THE           GOVERNMENT,
       I
       I
16         ADMIN      r STRA'rION REMOVJ!:S                                                    T SIN            'r H E        PRO C E S S            () 1<'
       I
17         REMOVING              ALL            ASBESTOS                   FROM              ITS          BUILDINGS                    AND          HAS


18         FORBIDDEN                  THE          NEW          INTRODUCTION                              OF    ANY'l'HJ NG

19         CONTAININ(;                  ASB}4~S'T'OS                  l.IKE         CF:IlIING                  BOARDS,                 WALL,


20         BOARDS.               NOTHING                     MAY          CONTAIN                  ASBESTOS.

21         Q.         AN lJ      HAS            THE          DE PAR '{' MEN T                  0 F        HE A L 'I' H lOS H A ,

22         0 C CUP A T ION A l.t                S A !:i' ft: '}' Y    AND        H E A L T HAD M TNT S If R A 'I' ION,                                   MAD E

2 3        A     FIN f) I N G         T H A 'II         C H J< Y S () TIL F;             1S        S A FE?


24         A •        NO,        S TR •                 '1' HI': Y    HE I. D       '1' H F.       0 P PO S     r 't' to;     VI ..: W •            WE        KNOW


25         Il'ODAY      THA'I'          0 ..'      'I'Hft:      IJI .. · .. ·I:':l<ft:N'I'     'I'YPF:S         0 ..•       CHRYS                             AI'],
                                                     (T.         schepers                        -     IJi.rf'!C':;                                     97


   J         SIX    'l'YPES        OF        ASB.I<:S'l'OS                  'PHA'I'         I        PU'I'        ON          'THE        IJIS,}'       '['HERE,


   2         COMMl:t-::RCIAL          CHRYS0'1'JI.8                          [S     'l'HF;           MOS rl '           CARCINOGENIC,                             'rHI:'~


   3         M () S TAB I I E      '[' 0     C A U S,I<:         CAN C 1<; R             0 It'       '1' H E      L 0 'I' •             NOW,        'l' H A '['     I S

   4         FOR    THE       LUNG.


   5                    FORTH £t;            P J , F: U R A,              M E S 0 'I' H f': I , J 0 M A,                   T rJI    M A '{    BET H F.:


   6         I, KA S T,      BUT      1'["     S     S 'J'   r   1.1 1J     ,J U S 'I'     BEe AU S I:i;                   T'I"     S     'I' HE    IJ 0 WEi; S 'I'


   7         Dcn:SN' 'I'      MEAN           {'I"    S       No'rH ING.                          Ir(l'    S       STlIJL                rl'HERE.

   8                               MR.         Me        CONNF.:L.I,:                       f        rrHINK                                   JUS'l'           H.AVE:


   9         A    FEW       MORE      QUESTIONS                           BUT       THEY'RE                       ON          A     O]FFER~NT


10           SUBJECT.


11                                 T H F;      C 0 U R '1' :                WE'RE                GOING                  TO         STOP       ANYWAY.


12           WE'LL          STOP      FOR           LUNCH                 AT      THIS               POINT                AND           RESUME            AT


1.i          :1.:30.

14                                                   (RECESS)




16

17                                                  AFTERNOON SESSION

18                                 (OUT             OF       THE            PRESENCE                     O~             THE         JURY)
        I'


19
        I
        I                          MR.         SCHACH'I'MAN:                               H E FOR 1<;                  WF:        R E C E SSE D          F' 0 R

20      II'UNeH,             MR.     Me        CON N E LrLJ                 IN D ] C A ']~ E D                 H I:i;     HAD           ,HI S T     A     1" E W


21      I    MORE       QUEST[ONS.                       COMING                   BACK               FROM               LUNCH            HE        INDICATED


22
        I    TO    ME       THAT     HE        NOW           HAD            A     CHART                THAT               HE        WAN'[IED            '1'0      SHOW


23           r1' HE,} H R Y     AND          H E;    WAS           GO 1 N G              TO          H A V E;           '1' H E     DOC 'T' 0 R     t     1


::>.4   I:   GUESS      t
                             EXPLAIN                CERTAIN                     EPIDEMIOLOGICAL                                         DATA        FINDINGS

        i'
/. 5    I    ANn    F ACT SAN n                'I' H I N G S              J.1 IKE        T H A'r .


        j'
         II

          I
         'I
          i
          !
     1                                        '1' HEM A 'r E; R [ A L, S                      '1' H A'I'        MR.             Me         CON N E IdJ                 W0 U IJ D

     2        NOW           LTKfi:          '1'0      HAVF;           'I'Hfi~      DOCTOR                    DESCRTBr;                         AND           EXPIJAIN                 FOR


     3        T H F:        'J lJ R Y       ARE          NO 'I'       I N       'r H E        PRO F F }:i; R                  'r H A 'J'       W A !-)       MAD 1:0;        'I' 0    M E;
          i
     4        TN          THIS          eASEL

         II                                   MR.            MC       CONNEL,I,                 (;AVE              M{4;         A     'f'RAN5CRIPT                           OF       DR.
         1\
         I,
              SCHEPERS                        TES'I'JMONY                       IN         ANOTHER                      CASE               AND             HR      'l'Ol,D           ME
     6   II
         II
                                        I


         II
         Ii
     7        THAT            'l'HIS          IS         MY        RF;POR'I',                 'PHIS             IS            WHA'f'           I      IN'l'END               '1'0
         II
         I                                                                                                      HE            DID          NO '1'          'I' A L K       A 8 0 U 'r
     8        H AV E          'I' H E       DOC TOR                TAL K           ABO U ']' •


     9        THESE                STUDIES.                         IT      IS           TRUE           THAT                  MY     DOCTOR                     DID.


10                                            THE            PROBLEM                     THAT           I       HAVE                IN         MEETING                     THIS           IS


11            THAT            I     HAVE              NO          ID~A          BECAUSE                      I'VE               NEVER                 5E{4;N           DR.


1 :I.         S C H {4; P Ii; R S           'r A L K         ABO lJ 'T'         'I' HE S E           S 'r U DIE S .                        I       HAVE            NO       WAY           TO


13            K NOW           HOW           HE'S             (T 0 IN G          'I' 0      EX PI, A I N                 A WAY              T H {4;         NEG A '1'1 V E


14            14' J N DIN GSA N D                       MAY B E             B U I [J n          u p 'r WEi:                   P 0 S T In.          v to:     F' I N 0 I N G S •


'j   5        1:"   0 R     T H A '1'       REA SON                lOB .J          fo~   CT     't' 0        I '1' •


16                                            MR.            MC      CONNEL.JJ:                         YOUR                  HONOR,                 WHEN              I    WENT


17            TO          THE       OEPOSITLON                             OF      DR.          REICHMAN                            ON         SATURDAY,                       ONE


1 80ft'                   T H F:    'I' H IN G S             'J' H A 'J'    0 C CUR RED                      0 U iU N G              'I' WI';        DE PO S 1'1' ION


1 9           WAS           CO U N S E; L             F'l,   r P P 14; D        0 VER           'r HE           PAP E R SAN D                              HE      HAD         A


20            C H A R '1'          THE REA N ])                    HE'}' URN E D                     'I' 0     'f' H E          U 0 C TOR                  AND         SA I 0


2i            D () C TOR,               H A VEl                   S H () WN        YOU          'r H E S [i;            ART I C IJ E SMA R K r~ 0                              D

22            WHATEVER                      NUMBERS                  'rHEY               WI:t~R}t~      AND             'I'   HB     Uoc'r()~                   SA.LD          Yfo;S.


). _1         A N I>        l' D        I, l. K 1<:      Y () U      'r 0       1J 0 0 K        A 'I'        '1' H E:         C H ART              BEHI ND                 YOU.


24            D ()        THO S E:          ART       t C IJ EST HAT A R 1': 'T' H fo: R}O~                                     I N U J C A 'l' to;             'T' HI!:    1) A T A

;1,5          ASS H () W 1\1                0 N       'I' H ..;    C H A R 'I' ?                AND             I'!'          HAD          TWO             COLUMNS
   J        BAS 1 CAL L Y          AND            HE      SA f D       Y fo~ SAN 0              "1' HI": N      "I" A I, K.I':    J)     ABO U 'II     THE


  /.        S'l'VDlES.

  3                                '1.' H 1': S   fo~    STU 0 I E S           A 10;      S   'r lJ D [ EST H A'] " e o U 1\I S F: I,

  4         ALERTED           ME      TO          WHICH           HE      WAS           PREPARED                  WI"rH                DR.

  5         REICHMAN           THAT               DR.       REICHMAN                    TESTIFIED                     TO          AND        THE

  6         PROFFER           THAT           W~          GAVE        AS        TO       DR.       SCHEPERS                        WAS        THAT          NO.


  7    I    1,    WE    SAI U         T H A 'I'          DR.      S C H F. P 1:<: R S

       I    HI STOR ICAI.             AND               SEVfo~RAl.        Rt<~PORTS               THERg               'lIHA"T'           TAI,K        ABOU'I'
       I
       Ii
  9         DR.     SCHEPERS'                     J:<~Xpl:<~RrENC}<:,               E'r       CETI:i:RA,              1':T        CF:TF.RA,            WHAT
       II
       L
10     ii   OPINIONS           HE        WOULD              GIVE          IN        A     GENERAL                 TERM                 AND    ALSO
       II
       II
11     I!   SAID       IN     RESPONSE                    TO      THEIR             EXPERT              REPORT                    FROM
       Ii
12                                    RfOCHMAN                    SAID          'l'HAT         AMOSI"rr~                 CAUSED               THfo:
       Ii   REICHMAN.


13          M E S 0 'r H E I. 10M A          AND          C H R Y S 0 'f' I I. E          WAS        1'oJ 0 T     A      C A U S IL              AND

       II
14     jI   OUR     RF:PORT          ON           DR.

                                                                                                                         IN            ADDI'I"ION,
is
       I    TESTIFY           THAT           CHRYSOTILF.                       WAS        A    CAUSE.

16          WE    ATTACHED               A        'l'RANSCRIPT                  OF        A 1987                CASE              IN      CAMPBELl,


17          AND     THE       TRANSCRIPT                       WAS        THE           ENTIRE               TWO-THIRDS                       OF       A

18          DAY     "l'ES'1'IMONY                 OF      DR.        SCHEPF;RS                 AS      oro        HIS             OPINIONS                 AND


19          EVERYTHING.

),0                                NO        ONF;         RAISEfl                             ACTVALLY,                      THAT'S              NOT

       I
21     I,   'PRUE.          THERE            WERE           SPECIFIC                    STUUIES.                      "J' H to;        DOC 'I' 0 R     WAS
       l'
22          Qu J:<~ S 'r TON E n     A H 0 U '1'          S 'I' U D I 1:': S    ()ti'     MIN E: R S •                HE          WAS


2.1         QUI'; S 'I" TON E D      A H 0 U '1'          S 'I' lJ D 1: E S     A B () U 'T'      r' A C 'I' () R Y          W0 R K fo; R S •              'rHE


). 4        I ND I V   r f) U A I.. S 'I"ll J) I F; s A () M1 'r rf'l'~ D I. Y WE R E                           NO 'Ii       P lJI, LED          0 VT


25          AND     WE R. E    NOT           C L 'r E lJ       I N     '1' HE       A R 'I' I C I. i<~ •          B U 'r          D fi~ F' ENS /:<;
                                                                                                                             100



  1    CO U N S E L     DID, ASK                 HIM         - -     THE        M0 R E     J     T H INK       ABO U 'I'       ['II,


  2    NATHAN,          DEFENSE                  COUNSEL                 DID      ASK      HIM       IF    HE      WAS        AWARE

       OF    EPIDEMIOLOGICAL                               STUDlES              REGARDING             MINE~S            AND


  4    FACTORY          WOHKF~RS.


                              MR.         SCHACHII'MAN:                         WHAT       WAS       DONE       WAS          Ok.

  6    SCHEPERS           WAS           ASKED              ABOUT          CERTAIN              STUDIES,            MANY            OF


  7    WH T C H    HEW AS               NO 'II    F' A MIL I A R              WIT H •          SOME       HE    SAID          HE        WAS


  8    FAMIIJIAR          WI'rH           AND        'rHE           CROSS-EXAMINEK                    JUSI['       WEN'l'          ON.

  9    SO,      AGA I N   t     I' M        1.. E F' 'II     'IIO    GUE S S         HOW       DR.    S C H E PER S           WILL


10     INTERPRET              THESE              STUDIES                 AND      PRESENT            THE       DATA          Tel    THE

1 :I   JURY.

12                            THl<-;      COUR'P:                   00    1     UNDERSTAND                THAT        THIS


13     CHART       THAT         YOU' RJ:o~           NOW            REF}t~RR IN(~          'PO    WAS      'I'HE      CHAR'[,

:14    'T'HAT     WAS     U'T'ILlhED                                 PREPAREiJ             AND       U'I'II,IZED             IN     'rHF.

1 !)   V TDE0      D E P 0 S I 'I' ION            0F         DR.         R in C H MAN?

16                            MR.         MC      CONNEI.TJ:                   THE       ACTUAL           CHAHT         IS


17     COUNSF.L'S             CHAR'I'.                ['1'     LISTS           THE       EXACT        SAME         STUD1ES.


1B     HE    JUST       CHOSI<;           'PO     SEId';C'l'             D[F'FER}t~N'r'          DA'PA.

19     THE TOTAL COHORT STUDIED                                           AND WHAT'S                 CALLED          THE


20                            T H 1-;     C () U t< T :             THIS        IS      NOT      THAT      CHART.


21     THAT'S         ALL       I       ASK.


22                            MR.        Me       CONNEIIL:                    NOT       THE      EXACT         SAME


23     CHAR'),

24                            TH"~       COURT:                     YOU       MAD fo;    A NOT H F; R      ( : H A R '[I .         IS


25     THAT       WHAT        YOU         HAVK             HERE?
                                                                                                                                                                               101



     1                                               MR.          Me          C:ONNF:l.Jl,:                      r' I< 0 M 'I' H E            to: x A C '['           SAM [4;


     2           S IJ' U 0 I       J:t~   S     T H A'r       HJ S            no C 'r 0 R           T :to; S '1' 1FT E [)                'I' 0 .


     3                                               T H F.       C 0 U R 'J' :               HAS            DOCTOR                     TESTIF]~D                        WITH


     4           REGARD                       TO     ANY          OF          'rHF;SE              orrHER              S'J'UTlIl':S                OR        ARE            'I'HF.Y

     5           INVOLVING                           NEW          STUDIES                     CONCERNING                                WHICH            HE'S               MAUE              NO


     6           REFERF:NCE                          A'l'     AI,L            J N       HIS         'rli;STIMONY                         TODAY?

         II                                          MR.          SCHACH'rMAN:                                   .[    DON "1'             'l'HINK                HE;' S
     7

     8           REF ERE N C EU)                         ANY           (n'         'P HE S EST U DIE S •


     9                                               'rHF.        COUR'I':                    THESE                   ARE          ALL        DIFFERENT


J 0              STUDIES                        Hr~'     SNOW                 Hr~     [NG          ASKE;J)?


1 'I

12

13               KNOW,                    HE       HAS        REVII';W}4;D                    AND            RF:I.[ft:D                 UPON


14               EPIDEMIOL.OGICAI.                                         S'\'UDIES                AND               LI'J'ERA'rURE                      HI':         INDlCATED

15               B A C KIN                      THE         0 THE R                'e R "   A I,    'I' H A 'I'        H.Eo;       DID        AND            HER E             H Eo;


16               INDICATES                           THAT              HE          DID.             AND               T HIS             J SPA R 'I'               0 F'      'I' HI:':     80 D Y


1 7              0 F     TJ I T ERA 'I' U R E                     '[' H A 'J'        H F;   's      R   r; v r E W1'; D 'I' H R 0                  [J G H 0       UT        HIS

'j   8   i       CAREER.

         I
19       I'
         I.                                          NOW,              r     AM         PRESENT1NG                             THESE               SPECIFIC
         !:
         i'
20       I       S 'T' U D I [<~ SAN DAD D RES SIN GPO J N 'T' S                                                         N 0 'I'         C () v    1': R f·; [}       0 R     N 0 '1'         P U 'I'


),1      iiON           co lJ N S               F~ f, 's      C H A I< ']'           W1 'I' H       '1' H J S          W J '1'1\11:': S SAN IJ                    1      WOUIJD
             I
             !   A 1J SOP 0 I N'1'                       () WI'        'P H A 'r       'f' HE;      R to: PO WI'               0   r'    0 R.•        R}O; 1 CHMAN


23               Sr:RV8D                      BACK          OVf:i:R                           wt<; I., jJ       0 V ERA                  Y 1:': A RAG 0                  N E Vf:o~ R


2 4              J N C I, U D E D                  AIJ L.     () fo'       'r H F;     S P 1'; C ]      r'   I C       S 'T' U I) I E S            'T' H A'I'         CO U .N S         tn.

). S             ,,; 1\1 DE   J)          U P      (~J   VI N     l~       M }<;     NO 'I' 1 C 1:':         () to'    0 J\i       'l'lH; S () A Y
                                                                                                                                                           10:1.


        !
  1                                    T H   r:      C 0 U t< 'I' :                 MAY         VERY           WELL                 BE.          'PHAir'       l'1AY


  2
        I
        I    VERY       WEI..L         BE.                 OF'      CO U R S E,                 I F     HE         'f' E S If' I F I Eo; D         W1 'I' H
       !!
  .3   i;    REG A R   J)      '1' 0   T H "'; MIN                  'I' H E         V 1 D £0; 0       D E P 0 S I 'I' ION                 W I 'II H () U 'II     ANY


  4
       il    OBJEC'rION                'l'Hf':N,                        COURSJ:t:,                 '[,HA'll        CURr~S             Or'        COURSfi;          'rHF~
       II
       Ii
                                                            ()t<'


       I'
  5          S J ')' U A 'I' ION       0 R         A 'jl    I. F; A S 'r            GO E S I N             WI 'P H 0 urr              () B ,J f<: C'I' ION.
       II
       Ii
  6    Ii                              TS          T H T SIN                  ')' HEN A TI U R (';                 0 F'        CON 'I' RAn T C'l' 1. N G,              ] N


  7    III   OTHER          WORDS,                 TESTIMONY                          THAT            WAS          RECK]VED                      MY       DR.


  R          REICHMAN?


  9                                    MR.           Mceo N N                 fo~   1. iJ :        ABSOLUTELY,                            YOUR            HONOR.


10                                     THE           COURT:                         Bu'r        NO'f'      wrT 1J I ZING                    '1'HE         SAlVJE

       II
11           CHAR'I'        THA'l'        WAS              UTI l. rZED                   BY        DR.         REICHMAN?


12                                                                                                 WELL,                 NOT         THE         EXACT           SAME
       II
1 .3         ONE.           I C E R T A I N L. Y                    n rON • '1'               '}' H INK        C 0 U NSF. 1.              W0 U IJ D        WAN T       ME
        I
14     II    TO    '1' A K E      HIS        C H A R 'l'            AND             WR 1'1' r~        0N       I 'I.' •
        I
        I
15                                     '[' H 1':     c () U R 'II :                 AND         '1' HIS        INC 0 I< PO RAIl' E S


1 6          ADD I 'I' ION A IJ           MAT 'J' E R               0 R       NEW             M A IT '1' E R       1[' H   A IT      HAS         NO 'I'    A I. I{ E A D Y


J 7          BEE N     'II EST I FIr; D                    TO       F; I THE R                BY      THE          n 0 C 'I' 0 R          '1' 0 DAY        I N     H J S


18           TESTIMONY                 OR          AS       TO          WHAT             MAY          BE       CONTAINED                         ON       THE


J9           CHART          THAr]'        MR.              SCHAC'J'MAN                        USED.


20                                     MR.           Me          CON N ELI .. :                    1 •M        No'r            SURE          r     UNDER STAND


21           YOUR      QUESTION.                            'l' H to;     [) 0 C TIO R             'II E S 'I' T   }<'   I E   f)    T H] S        M0 R N 1 N G


22           THAT      HE         RELIED                   AND          HAS           REVIEWED                     THROUGH                  HIS


23           CARE:ER


24                                     'r H E        C 0 U R '[I :                  HEM A DE               REF E: R ENe E                   '110      A    N lJ M B F; R


25           OF    DIFFERENT                       KJND             OF        STUDIES                   AND              ARTICLES                  UR
       II
       II
                                                                                                                                               1 O~


   1        WHATEVER               THEY         MAY        BE.

   2                                                                                   BUT MR.                    SCHACHTMAN'S

  3         CHART            DOES        NOT CUNTAIN                     THES~               EXACT NUMBERS                               AND           IT

  4         IS,         1N    J:o' A C rp ,                THAT'S                 MY     WHOLE                  POINT.                 T H A 'r        ']' H f!; S E

  5         CRITICALLY                   IMPORTANT                NUMBERS                    WERE               MISSrN(~               FROM THE

  6         PRESEN'I'ATION.                         SO     IN THAT sENSE IT                                       IS     ANTICIPATORY

  7         REBUT'rAL              IN A SENSE ONLY.                                    HER J:t;         ( If'   's NO '1'

  8         AWfICIPA'rORY                      SO MUCH            BECAUSE                    OF'      THF;            FAC'l' THA'£'                OR.

            RETCHMAN'S                   BEEN DEPOSED.                             B U 'I'    '{' H t<:         QUE S 'I'    J () N      ] S


10

l1          LITERATURE,                       YOU       KNOW,      WHE'PHI';R ,['HA'r                             l   N 1" 0 R MAT 1 0 NCO M r~ S

l/o         AS     A     SURPRISft:             'f' 0    C () U N S lU, .


13                                    MR.       SCHACH'J'MAN:                          YOU RHO NOR,                          JJ E 'r    ME B E

14          VERY         CLEAR.

1 I)                                  THE C () U R 'I' :           1         HAVEN'T                  LAID             FOUNDATION.
        I
       Ii
16     !I   ~r H A'I'    WAS                        WAS      TRY[NG TO                       DO WAS                   TRYING TO

17     II   DETERMINE                 WHAT WE WERE                       DEALING WITH                                 HERE.             THE
       :j
       !I

18

19                                                                                     COUNSEL                   KNEW THAT                     I       AND

20                      HE      KNOWS           THAT         I    WAS             NOT        AWARE               OF      MOST OF THESE

21          STUDIES             BEFORE THIS                      CASE             BEGAN.

2:1.                                  'f'HE COUR'P:                Ci'   H f:!;    N EX' I'        (,J (J   E S 'f ION,          0 F'     C0 UR S 8 ,

2.1         'J'HAT      WT1JI,        AllTOMA'l'ICAld.JV                    fi'OJrI,oW             WOUl,D              SF,     HOW         HI';        WOULD

24          BE     PREJUnrCfo:D.                        OBVIOUSI,Y,                    Abl,E(;¥.:n               "'HArj'       Hfo~     HAS            NO

25          K NOW LEI) G fc;          () r'   '" H 1 S WH J C H CON S'I' [ 'I'lJ 'T' E S SUR P R I 5 to:                                   ,       i
                                                                                                                                                                    104


  1         SlJPPOSE.                      HOW           WOULD                 YOU            Bt<;         PRF;JUUICl':D                            INASMUCH               AS


  2         DR.         REICHMAN                      HAS          ALREADY                         TESTIFIED                            WITH             REGARD            TO


  3         THESE              MATTERS?


  4                                        MR.           SCHACHTMAN:                                       WEt.JJ,                FOR           ON!';     THING,             YOUR


  5         HONOR,                      1::1 A S E       J)   R.        RE      r c: H MAN             I   S         ']'1-'-': S l' I M 0 NY                          KNEW              1

  6         WAS         GO I N G           '(' 0      H AV E            ]) R.          R E 1 C H MAN                        A V A I b A B IJ }<~          'I' HIS     W F; E K ,


  7         SO      I     HAl)          'PO        DO         HIM          BY          VIDI:H>TAPF;                           ON        SA'I'URDAY.                    [



  8         RASED              HIS         TESTlMONY                           ON       THE                PROFFERS                           THAT        I    HAD


  9         GO 'T"I' E N           jo' ROM         '1' H r~     P LJ A I N 'I' I        1:"   F'   r   Sl:o; X PER T S •


10                                         SO                 DI   J)   N "J'          HAV E               HIM              D0        'I' H J N G S       BAS E D          U P0 N


11          W HAT          I       A N '1'1 C I P A l' E n                 I      W0 U L.Jl                S   fo~   fo:    0 N       0 J R r: C'r'       BAS ED           UP 0 N


12          THE         REPORTS                    AND          TH~            TRANSCRIPTS                                    THAT              WERE          SUPPLIED
       \:
       Ii
13     !I   TO      ME         WHICH               WERE            TO          DEFINE                      1'HE             SCOPE               OF       THE    DOCTOR'S

       I:
14     Ii   TES'I'IMONY.

1 ')   'I                                  FURTHERMOR~,                                 L'M                PREJUDICED                               IN    ANOTHER


16          WAY.               I      KNOW           THESE                 STUDIES.                                  1      M F; AN,            1    HAV E      'r H }<; M

17          HER F.         LN         '1' H E      COli R l' ROO M .                          1        MAY                 HAVE         '.1'0       FIlMBLE         AROUND


18          A    l,1T'],lJF.            HI'l'.                T ' I)       HAVE               '[' ()       ASK             '1' H F.    CO U R'I' , S


19          T N D U L G E N C E,                   H U'I'       WE:        C () (J r, D            GET               '}. H R 0 UGH              IT.


20                                         THjo~        WAY             I'M            REAloI,Y                      PRE,JUOICF:O,                        YOUR        HONOR,


21          JS      T'M            NO'I'        S(jRfi~                           T HAVE NO                                 IDEA              HOW        DR.    SCHEPERS


22          ] N 'l' END S             TOP RES :to; N 'I'                   NOT          .J U S 'r              'I' H r;      M E SOT H E 1J 10M A                   D A 'I' A ,


23          B u'r       'I' H E       D A 'I' A      ft' 0 ROT HER                      D J SEA S E S;                            AND           HE' S ,


24          0 R V I 0 lJ S r, Y,                GO 1 N G           'I' 0       M A K r~            r N F' E R. ~; NeE SAN DAR GUM E N'r s


2 ')        FRO M         'I' H ..~     PRE V A I, F: N C F:                   0 fo'    0 'I' H F. R                 D .l S fo: A S     fo~     S T A'1' F. SAN D            l' H to;
                                                                                                                                                                         i05



   1          PRE V A 1, ENe J:o:             0 1<'     M r; S () 'I' H pa, 10M A                      ANn              -I      H A V"~        I\l ()        f I>f'~ A       W H A 'I'


   ;),        HI<; , S      (TO L N(7         '1'0      SAY           ABOUT                   'l'HA'I'.


   3                                       '1' H 8      CO lJ R 'l' :                  AND          ']' H to~        to' A err       YOU            nON' T               H AV E


   4          'l'HA'T'      KNOWLEDGE                      OR         INFORMA'I'TON                                  PRI1;,TUDICE                       YOU           IN       WHA'l'


   5          RF;SPECrf'?


   h                                       MR.           S C HAC H '1' MAN :                           ]        DON'T                THINK                   I    CAN


  7           CONDUCT                 AN      INTELLIGENT                                CROSS                  ~XAMINATI0N.


   8                                       THE          COURT:                         COULD               YOU               CONDUCT                    IT        ON         THE

   q          BASIS           OF        THE           INFORMATION                              THAT                  tOU          HAVE              MY           REASON              OF


10            'f' H 1';   F A C 'I'     '1' H A 'I'      YOU      I   R 1';       A C <.J U A r NT f4; D                     W I rr H       0 R         DOH A V 1:';             T H to;


11            A R '1' I C lJ E        T HAT           HE' S           REF r; R R J N (;                    TO?


J /,                                       MR.          SCHACH'T'MAN:                                  NOr              BECAUS~                     I        DON1T             KNOW


1.1      I    HOW         fl R.       S C H E PER S              W T L I,              T N 'I' to; R P R 1:<; 'I'            '1' HEM.                        HAVE            'I'HE
         I
14            lJArf'A.             THE:       Il A 'J' A        I S S A C R to:))               •          OPINIONS                                          PEOPI,E             HAVfe~

         I
15            DLFFERENT                    OPINfONS.                              AND          T H to;          i)   A 'I' A      1S        'T' H r~         n A 'I' A       AND         J
         !I
         Ii
lh       il   THINK           DR.          SCHKPERS                     AND               [    COULD                    REVIEW                 THE               DATA          AND           I
         !I
         i{
17            CAN         CROSS-EXAMINE                               HIM              THAT            WAY.
         'I
18                                         WHA'r           [     DON          I   'r     KNOW              I S          HOW          DR.            SCHEPERS                      [N


19            HIS         MIN D         W 1 I. L        V E R B A lJ 1J Y                EX PLA I N                     'I' 0     'I' H E      J lJ R Y           HOW          HE' S

20            INTERPRETEO                         THESE               STUDIES.


;)'1                                       '1' HE       CO U R 'I' :                   WHAT            00            YOU          REQUIRE                        IN      ORDER


2).           TOM E E 'T'             '1' H A '[' ?


23                                         MI<.         SCHACHTMAN:                                    1ft'          'rH"~        VERY              I,"'~AS'I'           r     WOUI,D


24            H A V fi~     T ()      H A V fi;       'l' H E    0 P P O~ 'f' U N T 'T' Y                       't' 0        'I' A I ,K     '1' 0       j)   R.       S C H E P 1'; R S


25            J N F () t< MAL I ,Y            () RON             'I' H fi:        R    r; C () I<   )) •
                                                                                                                                                                 106



   1     RF;CORD.                           BUT           I 1"     1         K N I<; W        'f' H A 'I'     DR.        S C H t!; P r: R S           WAS        GO J N G


   ;),   'l'()         GE'r           IN'rO          'I'Hti:       SPEC[F1CS                            OF'ft;P.I[)J:t~MIOLO(TlC                          STUDIES             I


   .3    W0       {J   LD           H A V ft:     ASK f<~ D            }<'   0 R      '1' HI':       D 1:<; P. 0 SIT ION              J, n N (~       AGO.


   4                                            DR.         SCHI';Pti:RS                      'f'YI-' t CAI,LY                HAS          NO'I'      DONE         'I.'HA/r


   5     TN            HIS            PRIOR               'I'ESTtMONTF.;S                            'f'HArl'       T' VI<;        (yO'I"rt';N          AND


   6     INCLUIlING                             IN        ,['HE:       '1'j4:SfL'JMON'f                     1['HA/r      WAS         GIVt<:N            TO       MJ:t~.


  7                                             'r H E      C 0 U t< 'f' :                'T'H~R~             WAS        NO        OEPOSITION                      OF     DR.


   8     SCHE:PERS?


   9                                            MR.         Me         CONNEIJ I,:                          NO,        THERE               WASN'T.


lO                                              'l'HF~      COUR'f':                      YOU           HAVE           THE         PRIOR              TESTiMONY


1J       OF            DR.            SCHEPERS                     F'ROM              ANO'1'H";R                   AC'[,ION          'I'HA'l'         WAS


12       Ace Ii; p 'r A B L r;                    'ro 0     YO lJ ?


13                                              MR.         SCHACH'T'MAN:                                   CAMPBlU,L.


14                                              THE         COUR'}':                      '1' H r S I S             NO' l',        0 Ii'    C 0 U R S 1':    I




15       CONTAINED                              IN        THAT?


i 6                                             MR.         SCHACHTMAN:                                     'I'HA'L"     S        CORRECT.

17                                              THE         C 0 U K 'J' :                 (       ASSUMF;              1fT'       WAS       NO'I'      CON'f'AINF;U


1 Ii     TN            '1' H J:o~     P RIO R             PRO C E E [) I N G                      HE C A U S r~          T H A '1'         ISS U E        PF; R HAP S


1 9      WAS              N 0 '['       CON TAl N 14: D                      ] I'll   0   'r H t<; R PRO C F; E DIN G S ?

20                                              MR.         Me         CONN F:ld, :                         HE      WAS           ASK~D            ABOUT


/. 1     SPgClfo'TC                         STUD(F;S.                           HE        WAS           NEVft;R          ASKF:D             ABOUT            'rHESE


         SPECIFIC                           STUDIES.                            ANn       I       Q U T 'i' J:o;    F RAN K 1, Y,             r.to'    'r HE]      R


;),.1    n0       C If () R           H A UN' 'T'           'r F. S 'f' 1 tq          ED' [' ()             '1' H fo~ MAN D          () N I, Y        'I' EST I Ii' lED


:2 4     'J' ()        WH A'r           r       B Fad f.i; V E               'f' ()   B t!:   t      YO lJ         K NOW      t    V 8 R Y M T N I MAl,

2!1      PAR'I'S                    AND         NO'['       'r'HF:           WHOI,I:':            I-'TC'I'LJt<f':,            I    WOULDN'T                  RATS},:
       II
       ,1
       '            \                     1                                         0                                       7
        I
  1         THr;SE           WI'PH         THE           D()C'I'OR.

                                        '"[' H f':     C0 UK      'r :                                                WH A rpi SIT                         Y () U


  .i        W0 lJ L.   I)    R E <.J U I R 1:';,         MR.         S C HAC 'I'M AN,                    'r 0     MEt!: 'I'      rr HE:         CO WI' r; N T T () N

  4         0 10'   C R () S S        F: X AMI 1\1 A 'f' ION,                  1   r'      Y () U     H A fJ      K NOW L E         j)   G H:     0 1:<'    W HAT


  5         I'l'    WAS?              OBV IOUSI,Y,                       Wr~       CAN' 'I'          CONDUC'f'


  6         COULD.                IN       O'rHI:';RWORI1S,                             WHA'r         yoU' Rg               SAYING                IS         (F          YOU


  7         K NOW           W HAT       'I' H E       'r E S 'T' I   M0 N Y             J S     'I' H 1'; N     YOU         W0 U J,I)           BEl N                A


  8         POSITION                  TO       PRt!:PARE                 YO(JRS~LF                    FOR         CROSS             EXAMINATION.


            IS      THAT          WHAT               YOU'KE              SAYING?


10                                      MR.            SCHACH'l'MAN:                            [T       WOULD              BE      ONE           STEP


11          ALONG            THE        WAY,             YOUR            HONOR.


12                                      THE            C 0 U R 'I' :           A 1, ] ,       R l G H 'II •           SUPPOSE                   AFTER                TH~


1.'3        EXAMINATION                        I      G]Vto:         YOU           SOM}<~           TJME          IN        WHICH               TO         PREPARto;


'l4         YOU R S E L, P'           FOR            C R0 S S        [c; X A M [ N A '[' ION?                         I     WOUJ,D              ASSUME                   YOU


15          C0 U L D         D0       '1' H A'r       FRO M          THE           MATti; R I A L               T H A 'I'      YOU           A I. REA       I)   Y


16          HAD.             TS       'L' H A'"        C OR R E C 'p?


17                                      MR.           SCHACH'l'MAN:                            ONIJY            IN        PAJ:o(T.


18                                      'l'HE         COUR'r:                  WHAT             ELSE            WOULD            YOU            REQUIRE?


19                                      MR.            SCHACH'rMAN:                             J    WOlJl,D              BE     S'l'EPPING                      IN


20          B LIN ]J 1. Y I N              THE           CR0 SS           fo; X A MIN A 'I' ION                   TOT H E                EXT E N'['              T HAT


21          WE      GO       B EYON D                'I'HE       RAW      IlA 'I' A .               BECAUSE,                   AS        I      SAID


22          BEFORE,               I     CAN           CROSS-EXAMINE                                 DR.         SCHEPERS                     ON      THE             DATA


2.3         CON'I'AINED                 1N           'I'HE       AlcrtCl.F;S.                       WHAT          1       CANNO'1'              DO         is        I

24          CAN NUT            DIS C ~; R N              HJS         fi; V A I, U A 'I' 1 V g            PRO C .. : S S t<~ S,               H1 ~


2 5         I NF    fi; R ENe ..~ SAN I)                 B fi;    A H b fi;        'I' 0      C R0   s   s - 1': X A MI N 1';            HIM
       i:
       I:
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                                                                                                                                                                    ina

       II
  1                                            irHF~       C()Ul<'r:                WHA'I'             WOUl,D              YOU          RE~LJJ Rl:!:                FOR
           i
           I
  ),       ;   II'HAT?
       I'
                                                                                                       'I' H A 'r       TS          SO M E 'j' HI N G               '1' H A'r       I
  3    II                                      MR.         SCHACHTMAN:
       Ii
  4            SAI D            1      W0 U L D          N},; EDT 0               BE        A H 1J E        'I' 0       'I' A L K       TO           U R.         S C H E P 1'; l< S
       I
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       'I      I NF 0 R M A IJ L Y                0 I<     fo' 01{ MAL L Y              F' 0 K         '1' H E      PUR P 0 S .1<-:             ()   14'     F' U R THE R
       II
 6     I:      DISCOVERY.
       I'
       !                                       MI<.        Me        CONNEI,l,:                        THE:         D A '1' A,          YO lJ RHO NOR,                           I S
 7

 8             THE           DATA.                I'M GO[NG TO ASK                                       THE            DOCTOR                 THE            SAME

 '1            QUE S '{' TON                 C 0 U N S E I,          D T DO!"               HIS          DOC TOR •                      I'M                            [ , I., I,


10             Tr~bl,           'rHE;        COUR'!'            ANI)        COUNSEIJ                   WHArr            I'M GOING                            TO     ASK          'l'HE


11             D () C '1' 0 R          RIG H II' NOW.

12                                             I'M GOING                     TO         ASK HIM                     IF          I    ASK~D                   HIM      TO


13             REVIEW                  TH~SE             STUDIES                  AND             IF     HE         HAD             SEEN THEM                       BEFORE,


14             IF       THEY            WERE             IN       THE MEDICAL LITERATURE.                                                                  AND      IF'

15             S [ MPLY T A KIN G II' H E TN!" 0 R MA '1' ION FRO M T H fi:                                                                     1': wr IRE            C 0 H 0 R '1'

1h             'I' H A '}'      WAS          1J 00 K E 0          A Ir      I N     A       S '(' U D Y          AN fl          'I' HEN         0 I seE R N I N G


17             FROM             'rHA,{'       OR         'l'RYING            '['0       INFI';R             F'ROM               'l'H A '1'     THA'r              MR.       HI      ['[J



18             c: 0   U 1, J)       NO 'I'     H A V!':         GO 'r 'I' E: N      PER [ II' 0 N r~ A I,                  M r: S 0 'I' H F: L. 10M A                 FRO M


1'1            C H R Y S 0 TI L ":,                 I F'        '[' H A 'I' • S A P R 0                PER          I N F E: R R Net': •

/,0                                           THE          DOCTOR                 HAS             ALREADY                  TOLD              ME THAT HE

21             SAll) NO.                      HR         SA     row H A '/'             Y () U         NEE 0            'I' 0       1.,00 K          A '/'    TS      YOU


22             NEI:t;[)         '1'0    LOOK             A'I'     '['Ht<:    [)}4~A'I'HS.



;U                                            IrHE         COUR'l':


).4                                           MR.          MC C () NNE 1.1 I                 :         Or:ATHS.                      THE:            N U MB E R           0 £"


21)            n F. A '1' H S,          N 0 'I'     'I' HEN U M B ft: l<                () 1'0'    P 1:'; 0 P 1., fo:      T H A 'I'         f!; v fi: R      W0 R K :E': D         A 'I'
         II

          I                                                         1'1'        S        A     ~ (J    Eo; S 'r T () NO ...·              Ii 0 W MAN Y                     0 fo'       'r H 0 S f!;
    1         OW fo; N S          COR N INC, •                              I




    2         HAVE            ALREADY                        D1KU.                  B g C A [j S F:               M F: oS 0    'r H E I. J     0 MAT S                     A


    J         'I' ,,; R MIN A 1J             11 T S ,,; A S fo~          AND             S0       A I.• 1.        THO S"~             WHO          C () M P R I S F.                   T H F.


    4         B () D YOI:"              P F: 0 P I, fo;           WH ( )fo~ V g R                                 'T'HE        PEOPl.F;                  WHOEVER                       GOT

    ~         M j<; S 0 'I' H ELI 0 M A                      ARE;        I-' ART             AND          I-' ARC       Fn.       0 fo'     'I' H I:'~       BOD Y             0 ft·


    6         PI:<: () P 1. t<:       WH ()           H A V ..:     I)   1 F; 0          AND           '1' H A 'r       [oS       A       M 0 REP R 0 PER


    7         NUMBgR                  'I'O       f<:VA1,lJAII'.r;.


    8                                            AND                            P I., US;              II' H"~        0 'I' H g R         'I' H I N (;.          'T' H A 'I'       r SAN

    q         TN}" ERE Neg                      0 F          C () U NoSE i,          I   S     C H A R '1'        I     '1' H E       I N F' I!~ R ..~ NeE                 'I' H A '1'       J

10            BEI.IF;VE                 IS            MEAN']'            '1'0       Bj<~       DRAWN                  1S       'I'HA'I'        CHKYSO'rILF:                              DOEo~S


11            NOT        P 0 SEA                      RI SK         BEe A U S to;                 A I .. t.       Y 0 lJ       H A V 1';        (S           A t, IJ       '1' H 1':

.12           PEOPLE                  STUDIgn                     ANll          '['HEN            ALIJ            YOU          HAVE            IS            ZEROES                    NEx'r


13            TO      TT.

14                                               AND           'I'HI':     jf'RU'f'H              IS          'I'HAT           ON         THOS!':                SAME              CHAR'rs

1~            'T'HA'r         Abl,           'T'HE:          PEOPI..E               s'rUDIF:D                     ARP;         TAKEN               Ft<OM            I      AND           A

I   61   I,
              I-' l, A C F;       WHER B                CO U N oS ti: l,            SAYS               'r H ,,:       7. E ROE S            ARE          I       ARE           IN        THE
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.\ 7     ::   M T D D I, E        I     A R 1':         A I dJ      '1' H }';       O'}' H r.a~          CAR C I N 0 G I': N GI eEl" £I' E C'T' S                                        0 to'
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I8       II   C H R Y S 0 'T' I I. to;                () R     A R G II A H I, Y               IN        THE            BODY              OF       PEOPLE                      FOUND


         I    TO      HAVE             OCCURRED.                                AND            IN        'I'H E        'l'F:XT


20            '1' HER r;          A R F;        I,] S '1' I N G S ;                 C I '1' A' [' ION S                 0 F'      ME: SOT H ln, 10M A S                                T HAT


21            DO      NOT             APPEAR                  ON         THE             CHART.


:1.2                                            T H ii;       CO U R'I' :                    A L, L,     RIGH'l',                 GF;NTLEMEN.


23                                              MR.            SCHACHTMAN:                                    w~; I.. LIB R 1 }4; }t' L, Y                   I     I 1\1


24            RESPONSE                       TO         THAT.                   DR.            G l UD [ CE                 DID            ADD R 8 S S                   'r H E         V g RY


2   I)        QUE S 'j' ION                  () ft'     WH fi~ 'r H E J<            T H fi:       A P PRO P R TAT E                         D fi: NOM I N A '1' () R                     WAS
                                                                                                                               1J 0



  J         'r H 1': N U M B I!: R 0 1"    M fo: N       r N 'I' H .,;           S 'T' U 0 Y    0 R     'I' H F.   N U M B E ROE"
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            'f' HAT'S      B E F. NCO V E R H; 1>            A I., R }<; A fl Y •
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       II                         MR.      Mceo NNE L.I. , :
       II
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                                  MR.      SCHACH'J'MAN:                             THA'l"         S WHAT OR.              GIUDICE
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       I,
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       it                                                                            THA'I"S            WHA,{' HE          SAID ON
  7    i:                         MR.      Me        CONNEL,L.:
       I:
       I:   YOUR        CROSS      EXAMINATION,                            Y~S.


                                  THE CO U R'r :                     A I, 1...     RIG H 'I',          G EN T L EM EN.         IS


10          THERE ANYTHING                   FURTHRk?

1j
       I:                         MR.      Me: CONNELL:                              NO,        S 1 K,       BUT               T •M
       I'

12     Ii   SORRY.
       II
13     II                         THE COURT:                         I'M GOING TO MAKE THE RULING
       II
       II
       [I   ON    IT.
14
       II
       !
1S                                MR.      Me CONNEIJIJ:                             YES,           SIR.

1h                                '{'HE COUR'P:                      THE COURT'S GOING TO                                   PERMIT

17          THE TESTIMONY OF THE DOCTOR ON THE BASIS OF THE

18          CHAR'rs.           AND        UPON THE CONCLUSION OF THAT TESTIMONY                                                         I


1 <3        WI I..I,    G I V E YOU,         MR.          S C HAC 'I' MAN,                     AN      0 P PO R TUN IT Y      'I' 0

20          BEFORE         PROCEEDING                    IMMEDIATELY WITH THE CROSS

21          EXAMINA'rION,wTLI., (TlVE YOU                                            SOME           PERIOD OF TIMfc; TO

22          CHECK        WHATEVER            MATER1AL                      [T        IS THAT              YOU       REQUIRF.

2)          CHECKING,             HAV1NG THEN GLEANED THE                                               lNFORMATTON              FRUM

;/,4        THE        tHREe'l'    t';XAMINA'J'10N                     F'OR          1'HB       PURP()SI';          Ofo'   CI<OSS


~5          ~XAM(NAT]ON.
                                                                                                                                                                    11 1



   1                                            c: 0 U R '1'       '1' A Kg S         TN '1' 0        CON SID ERA T ION                                 'I' H E     FA C T

   .i.         T HAT            or H T 8        I SIN              '1' H ~-;     N A 'I' U R /:';     0    r'     rr E S rf' T M 0 N Y               E I T H F: R        TO

   .3          CONTRADIC'1'                        OR         REBU'f             'I'ES,]'IMONY                    ALRf:t;ADYf!:I,[CI'I'ED                                IN

   4           T H F.        VI D EO')' A P f<;               [) E P 0 S 1 'I' ION             BY          DR.         K E I C H MAN                    AN0         F l. N D 8


   Fi          T H A 'I'        1 TWO U L D                   HE      ADM J S 81 B I, F:                   FOR         'I' H A '1'       PUR PO SEA S




   7     ,
         ,I
                                                CO U R 'I'         'I' A K     r N GIN 'I' 0               CON S T nIt: R A rf' I () NTH E                            F ACT


               'I' H A cr'      no C TOR              A ']'      THE           TIM E;,         I N         VIE W 0 F                 THE             F ACT          T HAT


   9           I N FOR M A '1' ION                     HY        R F: A SON           0 F      'r H E           F A C 'T     THE            V [ 0 EO TAP E


10             DEPOS[TJON                          HAV.(NG               BEEN             TAKEN                 OVER         THE            WREKENO                   IS


11             KNOWN                'ro MR.                 Me     C:ONNEL.I.,                 'PHAT              IT       IS        DEAL'r                WI'I'H        BY

12             YOU           INSOFAR                  AS         YOUR            CLIENT               IS          CONCERNED                          IN       HIS

13             TESTIMONY.

14                                              THE           COURT              FURTHER                   PERCEIVES                        THAT              IF      THERE

15             T SAN Y 'I' H I N G                                    AND          W 1 I,]J         PER MI '1'             I P'      YOU             r' E: F. i.J   'I' HAT


16       ;1    IT'S             NECESSARY,                         WILL            PERMIT                  IN        AND          DIRECT                   FURTHER
         Ii
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i 7            DE PO SIT rON                       O(:i'      V0 U R           C Jd E WI'           [fo'        YOU        WI S H           'I' 0       EX PAN nON


1H             'rHt<;        MA'I'TER,                EVEN           'l'HOUGH               '('HIS              rs     BEJNG                PF:RMI,]'TED                      IN

19             THF~          NA'I'lJR}t~           OF'        REBU'l'']'AI.               SO        'rHA'I'          'I'HA'l'        COUL,D                In:      }t'AIRL.Y


20             IH~   A J, 'I'       W 1 'I' H      BY         YOU R            C L J 1": N'"        AS          WE l..IJ •           EVEN              THOUGH                 THA'I'


21             MAY           BE       DONE            BY         FURTHER                  VIDEOTAPE                        DEPOSITION.


                                                MR.           SCHACHTMAN:                             YOUR             HONOR,                  THE            PROBLEM


23             THAT             I     HAVE            W1TH           THE           COURT'S                      RULING,                 I      UNDERSTAND


;), 4          or HE         E< U 1.1 N G


2S                                              ']' H 1<:     CO U I< 'j' :           r     S A J U I f"               YO lJ         F E :EO; 1..,     fr H A '1'     I fl'    rS
        !I
                                                                                                                                                             J J ).



   :1         NECfi:SSARY.                     VOU           HAVI:!~N          I   '['    INDICA'I'I<:I>               'ro       'J'HF;     COlJR'!'              A'l'


   2    i'    ANY          'L'lMI:!:    UP     UN'I'!J ..           'T'Hfi~        PRE";SEWr                              AT       ANY         TIME               THA'I'
        ;;
        ;1
   .1         THER~             IS      ANYTHING                    THAT                 YOU        WOULD             REQU1Rk               OTHER                 THAN
        II
   4          THE          FACT         'I'RAT'      YOU            WHA'l'               WOULD            WAN'P        'PO       KNOW           BEFOREHAND
        II
   5          WHAT           'I' HE     PRE 5 E N 'I'          W T ']' N E S S                 1S       GO I N (7      TO        HE       'I'to~ S 'I' J 1:" YIN G
        I'I
        ,I
        Ii

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        !,    TO       S0      AS'}' 0         M E fo; 'I'     'T' H A '}'         FOR          'I' H E      PUR P 0 S F;          0 FeR 0 S S
        Ii
        !I
   7    !I    EXAMINA'rION.
        Ii
   8                                      T ' V F:       GON E          EV EN                  J-H:V OND          'PHAT          --


   9                                      MR.        SCHACH'T'MAN:                                  I     UNDERSTAND                      THAT.


10                                        TH~;       COUt< '1':                    --          50       AS     TO      BE        AS       FAIR               AS


l 1           P 0 S SIB I J fi:         W I 'I' H    KELT A R D               'I' 0       I' [ ' I N         P fo: R M T 'j' ']' J N (T     ']' H ):0:


1),           'I' EST T M 0 NY.


13                                        MR.        SCHACH'rMAN:                                   THE        PROBLEM                1     HAVE               AND


14            'I' HE       P R f<~ J U D ] C g       fAR 'I' T C U 1.1 A '1' 1<: D                      BE FOR f<~        WAS         'J' HAT            T      L,O S E


15            DR.          REICHMAN.                     (     CAN NOT                    (~   WP       H rM      FOR


16                                        THE        COURT:                        WHY          00        YOU         LOSE        DR.          REICHMAN?


17                                        MR.        S C H Po C H'r MAN:                            r     DON'T           THINK             HE'LL                 BE


18            AVAILABLE                   TO        ME       TH1S             WEEK.


19                                        THE        COLJR'l':                     DO          YOU        KNOW         THAT           ~OR          A         FACT


20            EVEN           FOR        THE         PURPOSE                   OF          ADDITIONAL                      VIDEOTAPE?


21                                        MR.        5CHACHTMAN:                                    I     W 1 J, IJ    C E R T A J N I.. Y               C A IJ L         HIM


22            l~       I     FEEL         THE        NEEr).


), .1                                     ,]'HE      COllR'[,:                     I      DON' '}'           K NOW        r F'    YOU          DO            ft' E E [,


                                             l ' Vi<;        Gl Vft;N              YOU          'fHA'"         OPPOR'l'UNITY.                                [ , VE:
24            THfo~        I\lEi<;[).


2"i           OPl<:Nt-;[)        rrH~:       U()()R          '1'0     "'HA'I'             i<:X'I'F:N'P         so      'PHAT'         YOU         CAN             Mft:ti:'I'
       II                                                                                                                                                 113



  .1        WHAT ft~ V F; R             TT       J S     T H A oJ'     's       fn~ I N G             PRE S       1': WI' ~ D,         fi: V EN      'J' H 0 UGH


  2         'I' HIS        TS      B 1':   r NG        I-' R r~ S J:o: l\l'1' F; [)    J N        rr H }4:       N A l' U REO r'              E 1 'I' HER

  3         CON T R A 0 I C T ION                      () R       REB U T TAL                'I' ()    'I' H F:       'I' E S l' I M0 N Y         0 fo'     I}   R .


  4         REICHMAN.


  5                                        MR.         SCHACHTMAN:                                WE L L,             NO '['      K N () WIN G            E X ACT JJ Y


  6         WHA'f'         DR.          SCHEPI'~RS                 WOUlJO              SAY,             r        DON"r           KNOW            WHI:!:THER

  7         WIld,          N I'~ E [)      TOR to; 0 P I'~ N              n R.         REI C H MAN'S                       DE P 0 SIT ION.

                                           'l'HE       COUR'r:                  IF         ['1'       ARISES               THAT             THAT          IS


  9         NEe E S S A R Y,                 l' M        GO r N G            TO        ( .. R A wr           YOUTH A 'r               () P PO R 'I' U NIT Y             .


10          THERE            IS         SUFFTCIENT                       TIME              [N WHICH TO DO THAT SO                                                  IT

11          WILL           NOT          PREJUDICE                     YOU             IN     ANY REGARD.

1?                                         I S     'P H A 'I'      U N D E }o{ S 'I' AND A B 1. E,                      MR.         Mceo NNE L, L ?


1 .1                                       MR.         MC         CONNELL:                        YES        t    T     UNDF:RSTANfl                      'I'HE


14          CO U R T       's     R U JJ I N (~ •


15                                         THE         COURT':                  A 1,1 ,      R [ G HT •                 1 'M        GOING            '('0

16          PERMIT               THE         TESTTMONY.


J 7                                        MR.         SCHACH'I'MAN:                              YOUR            HONOR,               TN        RESPONSE


18          TO     YOUR           SUGGESTION                          THAT             [     COULD                HAVE           A BREAK,                   I

19          THfNK            1    WOULD                PREFER               TO         START                 THE        CROSS               EXAMINATION

/. 0        AND       S F; E      HOW            FAR          I    CAN          G E'I'       UN ']' J L           I    H A V r;       'J' 0      ADD R r: S S

21          'r H r; S F~     ISS U ESt                 R AT HER             'P HAN           H A V 1 N (..            TOG 0           A       IJ ENG 'I' H Y


22          PE.RIOD              OF        'rIMF:


23                                         MR.         Me         CONNI':IJL:                     CRUSS               ON       HIM          IN    THE


24          MORNING.

                                           HR.         SCHACH']'MAN:                              c~0        S SON             'I' H E: M     F'I R S 'J'        'I' HI N G
                                                                                                                                                       ii4



  1    IN      TH~       MORNING                SO               co U I, D              HAVE               0 V E}( 1\1 1. G W['       •



                                                                         YOU            INTEND                    TO     CARRY


  3    THERE'S               NO        PROBLEM                IN         THE            DOCTOR                    BETNG             HERE


  4    TOMORROW.                       TS     'J' H A ']'     f 'T' ?


  5                                MR.        MC       CONNELL,:                         I   'r 's             A 1J WAY S A P ROB IJ EM                      I




       BUT       'l'HE       DOCTOR             WILL.            ADJUST                  HIS               SCHEDULE.


  7                                THE        COUR'r:                    OKAY.


                                   I      DON''l'           'rHTNK             A        RUl.E              8      HEARJN(~                WOULD          BE


  9    APPROPRIATE                        UNUER             TH~          CIRCUMSTANCE                                  SO        AS       TO      BE     IN


l O T HEN A T U REO ~'                        DIS CO V E R Y                   WH l CHI S                         WH A 'I'       Y () UTA L KED


11     AAOlJ'I'.                   DON "I'           'I' H J N K         A     R U JJ E         8          H EAR I N (~             HAS        '[' 0    DO


1 :?   WT'l'H     'I'HIS           'j'YPJ4;     OF          AN     APPROACH.


13                                 NO.                 UON'T                 PERCEIVE                          RULE          8      APPLIES              IN

14     'T'HI S    SI'T'UA'f'ION.                       s0        r 'I'       W() U JJ fl        N 0'['            BE     A P PRO P R I ATE                   FOR


'J 5   A      RU L E     8       H J4~ A R 1 N <TAN n              I' M            GO 1 N G                'P 0     A BIn E           BY'" H r;


16     OR 1 G J N A I.           S U G G 1:': S '[' TON          AS          1 N nrc A 'Ii           ft~   fJ •        OKAY.


17                                 I T      MAY        V F: R Y          W J:o~ l.I.J    BE          ir HEN            I N       LTG H T         0 F'    T H 1:';


18     FACT       THAT             DOCTOR              MAY         BE          CARRIED                         OVER          THAT          THE          DIRECT


19     E X A M T NAT TON                  W I L 11     E NAB IJ E              YOU           'I' 0         I:' REP ARE              '{ 0 U R S E lo F


20     o V ERN I       G H 'I'     FOR        A P P R () P R       r A 'I' ~:           C R 0 SSE X A MIN A ']' ION.                                    WOU!.,D


21     'l'HAT     BE

),2                                MI<.       SCHACHTMAN:                                r rp HI N K                   'T' H A']'     W0 U J, D


:),3   MT'I'[(~ATE               'rH£t:     PREJUDICE                        MUCH            MORr;                '['HAN         JUST          GJV.lNG              ME




i.~    A'}'    'rHOSft:          STUD II:':S:               t<;VAI,lJA'J'E               WHA'I'                DR.       SCHt<~P~R~                    ~ATD
       il
       h
                                                                                                                                                               J i 5



  1         'I' 0 DAY       AND            H A V F;            () V F; R NIGH '1'               '1' ()       P R F; PAR E          MY       C K0 S S .


  ).                                       T HI:<;           (: () U R '(' :        Yol!            MTGH'1'              AIJSO        UNDER              THOSft;


  .1        C J R CUM S TAN C r; SHE                                 A H JJ £0;     P r~ R HAP S                 'f' 0    CON S U 1, '],          WIT H


  4         WH () M F. V E R          I.   or           TS     Y () lJ    WT S H           '(' ()        CON S U VI'             WI']' R         ABO {]'['        C R0 SS


  5         EXAMTNATTON.


  6                                        MR.               SCHACH'1'MAN:                               'l'HAT'S             'J'RUF:      '['00     t       YOUR


  7         HONOR.


  H                                        THr;              <:OUI<1':              OKAY.                      BRING             THE        dURY             IN.


  9                                                               ( .1 U R Y        F: wn: R S )


10                                         'f'Hft~           C()UKT:                OKAY,                    MR.         MC      CONNELL.


11

12          DIRECT               EXAMINATION                               (CONTINUED)


13          BY     MR.           Me        CONNEld,:


l4          Q.             DOC TOR                  I     P A II' H 0    r, 0 GTe AI, I, Y               I     ARE        THE         CEl, IJ S          0 F      '[' H F.


15     I    PLEURA               AND            THE            CELLS              OF       THE               PERITONEUM                     [)IFFERENT
       I
16                         oF     D IFF E R £0: N 'f'                    0 RIG I NOR                         ARE         'I' HEY      S I MIL ARC E L 1, S ?
       I
17     11   A •            I N    'I' H E               E MB R Y 0        '1' HEY          COM E               E SSE N '[' r A L, I. Y            F' ROM          'I' H E
       II
       I
18          SAMI:<~        TISSUE                       CAI,LED           'fHF.          CI:'~l,OMIC               CAVI'l'Y             WHICH                IS     ALL,


19          ON E      AT         C E R TAl N                   s'r A Gfi;         0 F'     'I'R F:           E; M B kYO.              AND         '1' HEN         A 'I'      A


20          [, A /1' E R    S TAG E                     THE      0 I A P H RAG M                    G ROW SIN                    BE If' WEE NAN II


21          PARTfTTONS                          THE            BODY            CAVITY                    INTO            THE       UPPER            PORTION


22          WH r. C H       TS        TRE                '1' H 0 RAe Tee A V 1 'I' Y                           AND        R f; S l'     0 J:i'    'I' H F;


:1.3        ABDOMINAL,                     CAVI'ry.                       B U 'I'        A'T'       'I' H F:     S '1' A R 'I'     'I' H F.: Y , REA IJ L                 'r HE


),4         SAME.


25          Q.             DOC'l'OI<            I        WOU!,D           YOU            A(~R       t<:E       WI/j'R         r[,HE     s'rATEMEN'I'                      THAT
       Ii
                                                          (~.     s    ~   he per s              -    I)   ire ~       t.                          J i h



  J         THE      0 Nb Y        M A J 0 l<.         C AU S     r:       0 F      1, lJ N (7       CAN C E R              I   SeT GAR E; 'J"l' F: S ?

  ).        A.        NO.
       ,I
       1\
  .1   ,I
       I,
            Q•        AR    to:    'I' HER    to:      0 T H B; I<         MAd 0 RCA USE S,                            DOC 'P 01<. ?

        I
  4
        I   A•        'I' HER EAR E                    MAN Y           M A.J 0 RCA US!'; S                      0 F'        CAN C g ROE"             'T' H F~


 5          I.lING    AND          'PHfi;RF;' S               'l'HE        DIS'l'lNCTION                        THAT             SH()Ul.D         BE:
       II
 6     I'
       II   DR AWN        B fo~ T WEI'; N           CAN C E R              0 £0'    THE;         R F.: S P I R A 'r 0 R Y              T R A C'I',      'I' H A 'I'
       II
 7     Ii   FIRST         PART             THAT           I     DREW,               AND          CANC~R                OF        THE       LUNG
       !i
       !i
 8          TISSUE          ITSELF.
       II
       i;

 q                    C I GAR E T 'T' ESC AU S g                             NO         CAN C E R           0 F        '1' HE      IJ UN G       'r ISS U E

10          ITSELF.                I 'I'    0 N Lye A USE S                         CAN C E R              I N 'T' HER r~ S P I R A 'f' 0 R Y

11          TRACT         AND        IN       THE             ~TRST                PORTION                 OF     IT.              AND       OTHER


12          THINGS          CAUSE             CANCERS                      IN       BOTH             THOSE             CONDlTIONS

13          PLACES.                THERr;'            s       ONfi:        POIN'T'            WHERI:!:          CIGARE,['TES                     AND


14          ASBESTOS,                FOR            lNs'rANCE,                      GE'r         TOGF;'I'HER                    ANl>     PROOUCE                A


J 5         CANCl'~R        WI'I'H         DOUBLE                CAUSA'l'TON                         AND        THAT'            IS     IN       THE

16          PROXIMAL               PART             OF        'PHE         BRONCHIAL                       TREE.                 I""    'I'H E    MAN


17          BOTH      SMOKES                AND           IS,          F'Ol<        I Ns'rANCfi:,                 EXPOSED                 TO


18          ASBESTOS,                THAT'S                   CALLED                SYNERGISM;                         BUT         THAT          APPLIES

lq          TO    ONLY            ONE       POR'I'ION.


20          Q.        IS          THERE             ANY         ABILITY                  OF          ASBESTOS                    FIBERS           TO       MOVE


21          AROUND         OR        TRANSMIGRATE                                  IN    THE          BODY             AFTER            THEy'VE


22          B E F. N I N H AI. 1'; D ?

:;n         A.        I     DON' T            lJ N D r: I< S '1' AND                l' H r;      W0 R n         "D [ F F F: R E N C E . "                  YOU


24          MEAN      THE          DIFFERENT                     TYP~S                  OF       ~IB~RS?


25                                   T H F;         C 0 U 1-/ 'I' :          HEFRAMk                  YOUR             QUESTION.
                                                                   G.       Schepp.rs                        -    I)j    rp.cr.                                      1 i 7




  1         BY       MR.       Me        CONN~LL:



            Q.            AM 0 N G           'I' HE;          In t" F' g R g N 'r'                 'I' Y PES         0 f"        .1"1 BE R S,                r S    l' H F: R E

  3         ANY         0 I .1" fo' ERE NeE;                  B E 'I' WEE NTH E                         A B I L I 'P Y            () F       C H R Y SOT 1 I, to:

  4         FIBER             AFTER              I,}"         S     HF;gN                BREA'I'HED                  IN          TO        PASS              THROUGH               TO

  5         'e H E      P I. l'; U R A       AND              Ton 'r HER                        PAR 'I' S         0 F'      '1' H fi~     H0    j)   Y       A SOP PO S 1:<: D


            rI' 0    T H F;    01' HER               '[' Y P I<~ SOl<'                   fi'   r B 1<; R S ?

  7
       I
       Ii
            A •           'r HER f!;         A R F;           J)   IFF' ERE NeE S                       B U 'r       'I' H EY           ARE          AT       D IFF ERE N T
       \,

  8         I. EVE I. S        () F      MAN I t:" fi: S '1' A T' ION •                              C H R Y SOT I 1.. E                   TS        ']' HEM 0 S'I'
        I
        I
  9         MOHIT,E            OF        TH8            ASBI:!:STOS                            Fl BF:RS           Bf;CAUSE                   1'1"        S    'l'H}:t;      MOS'P


10          SLENDER                AND               fT'S           THE            TYPk              OF          FIBER            THAT               BREAKS                 UP

11     :1   I N '1' 0     'r H INN ERA N D 'r H INN to; R                                          PO R T ION SAN D                          1'1'        K E E P SON


1 2         DOl N G           SO      FOR            'I' H E        D lJ R A'r ION                   0 ft'       THE        TIM E            l' HAT            1 TIS              IN


13          THE         HUMAN            BODY.


14                        SO       IT        IS         THE             MOST                   MOBILE             OF        THE           1,0'1'         AND         IT      CAN


15                      IN T 0        ANY            l' ISS U E:              AND               YOU          CAN         Eo' I N o r T I N                    '}' HE


16          KIDNEYS                AND           [N           THE           BLADDER                     AND          ADRENALS                        AND           LIVER.


17     ii   AlII.       OVER.


1 Ii                      THE         (> T   H I<~ R          FIB r~ R S                 A R f<~     r. A R G E R           I N         G F. N 1:': R A I.         AND       l' HEY


19          TEND          TO       GET           TRAPPED                      TN               THE     TISSUES.                           ANl>           ONCE


20          THEY'RE                TRAPPED                         IN       THE                TISSUES               AND          SCAR               TISSUES,


21          'THEY         DON"I'             MOVE,                  ~[,Hr~Y'RE                     S'f'UCK.                 SO          IF      'l'H F;Y           DON'      'r

22          GET         r WI' 0       '1' H E        P I, E U RAt                  1:"   0 R       INS '1' A NeE tOR                         Pfo: R I 'I' () N E A I.

2 3         C A V 1 'I' Y      gAR IJ Y          t      '['   H fo~ Y   I   R F:         NO 'T'      (.; 01 N G          '1' 0    D ()       S ()        i.J A 'I' F: R •


24          Q.            DOC,]'OI'<         I       l ' fl         l'[KE                '1'0      ASK           YOU        WHA'['           ROIJE            DOft:S


25          FIRS'f',           CAN           YOU              TEl.iJ          MF;              WHAT          ,}'HE       NO,]'10N               OF'          INDIVIDUAIJ
                                                           (~.      s c: h e per s -                         I)   ire c:       t.                               118




   ?    ']' 0 X I C      SUB S '1' A N C 1:<: S              0 .R       0 C C U RR ENe E S                          () F'      0 I SEA S E ?


   3    A.            YES.

   4    Q.            C 0 U lJ fJ          YOU           F. X I-' l, A 1 N          WH A l'           I l'        I S       'T' 0    l' H F:       LAD I E SAN D




   6    A.            () NAN               A V FO< A <.;1":;             1. F'       Y 0 lJ         l' A K E        10 0            HUM A N             8 F, I N G S      0 F'


   7    THE      SAME               AGE         AND          SEX            AND            RACE              AND            EXPOS~                 THEM            1'0    'J'HE


   8    SAM F:        '}' HI N G,            'T' H ,,;     M A.J 0 R T 'I' Y               () to'     THE M             WI t.JJ         REA err              IN      T H E!~


   9    SAM E         WAY           'r 0     '1' H l':     SAM r~           T H T N (; .


10                    HOW EVE R,                    'r HER E            I S         AI. WAY S                A'I'       '1' HE       Ii: N J)      0 F       '1' HAT

11      EQUA'rlON                   IT'S            CAL.L,ED                BF;Ll,-SHAPED                               CURVE,                  IJIKF:         A     BEIJL

1 ;),   '1'URNEf)             UI:'SIDR              DOWN,               OKAY?                         'J'HERE'S                     ALWAYS                AT       EACH


13      END      A       F R I NGE              F' ROM           'I' H A ' r l 0 0                  P EO PI, ,,;            0 F      '1' H n S 1:0:       WHO        W I L IJ


14      REA C 'I'        j)   T £" FER E N 'r IJ Y               FRO M              'I' H E         C E N '1' i<; H         G R 0 UP.                   SOME         WIldJ

1~      RES I S '1'           'r H 8       H ARM fI' U b            1:0: 1" £I'   E C ')' S         0 F      '1' H E        H A .R M F U L              M A ']' EO; R T A I,


16      AND       SOMfo~            WIIJiJ          OVE:RRF;AC'1'                        '1'0       IT       AND            Rfi;AC'1'           SOONER              OR         IN


:1 7    A    M 0 R 1';        E x AGE R A '1' E D                WAY              'P 0     '1' HE         SAM E             'I' 0 X I C         AGE NT.                  so,

18      '1' H }:': R }4; FOR E,            T H F:        IN 0 I V I D U Ai,                     SUS C E P T I 8 ILL T Y                            P IJ A Y S        A

19      ROLE          IN        MAKING                   CER'J'AIN                  PRRSONS                       BEHAVE               D1FFERENTLY


~o      FROM          THE           AVERAGE                  PERSON.


21      Q.            DOC TOR,                  IN         THE:        H Y P 0 'r HE 'r I C A I.                        I     GA V E            YOU          B F~ FOR     fo~ ,


22      I    POSED              A      HYPOTHET1CAL                                 OF          AN        INDIVIDUAL                            WHO          WAS         HORN


?J      JN     1938             AND          WHO           WF: N 'I'       'I' 0         W0 R KAT                   T H r;          0 WEN S             COR N I N G

?4      BE R tJf N            K A VI, ()        P l, A N 'T'        W H F: R r;            H F.       WAS           1<; x P 0 SF; D             '1' 0     ASH 1": S 'f' () S


;>.';   FlfH;~S               ot"      BO'rH             AMOS rTF.                  ANI)            CHRYSO'n I.E                       '1'YPtL
                                                                G.    s~hpperR                  -     nirec~                          119
       'I
 1                         AN [)       l'     n       1., T K F:     YOU       'I' 0    ASS U M l<~        1   NAn D r'T' rON       'r 0   'f' H A 'I'


  /.        T HAT          J:\   E C AU S E: 0 ft'              T, U N G COL 1, A P S F: SAN n I, U N(;                     SUR G F. R Y T H A 'I'

 3          BRGINNING                       IN        1968 HE WORE A MASK FROM THAT PERIOD ON

 4          AS    I,ONG             AS

 5          COULD                WORK         AND              HIS    DEATH.

 6
        I                  CAN         YOU Tf<;L,L ME                      WHAT          r    J F     ANY,       ROllE                AND        I'D

 7     I    ALSO           IdKE YOU                      'PO       ASSUMF; THAT                     HE;    WAS       A SMOKER         WHO

 8     I    QUIT           SMOKING.

 9                         CAN         YOU            '1'''~   I, IJ MEW H A 'I',             T FAN Y,           R 0 IJ E THO SET W0
        I
10     II   ACTIONS                 0):0'     WF';AION<y A MASK                              AND OF            STOPPIN(y         SMOK I. NG

11          CAN      PLAY              fN         TH~           DEVELOPMENT                     O~        ANY    ASBESTOS-RELATED

12          DISEASl'~S?


                                            MR.          SCHACH'T'MAN:                        o B ,1 E C 'r ION .          'rHTS    IS     AI,SO

14          BEYOND THE                        PROFFER                 THAT WAS                 GIVEN            TO    ME.

15                                          MR.          MC        CONNELL:                   I'M         SORRY,          YOUR     HONOR.                I


16     II   DON'     '1'         UNDERSTAND                        THAT OBJECTION.
       I
17     il                                   'I'HE COUR'T':                     'l'HE COURT
       !I
18                                          MR.          MC        CONNEIJL:                  IT'S         A HYPOTHETICAL.

19                                          THE COUR'l':                       1       KNOW         ['I"S       A HYPOTHETICAL.

20          I'M      GOING TO                         PERMIT THE QUESTION TO                                         BE    ANSWERED.               IT

21          HAS      TO           DO ONLY                      W1TH     THE            EFFECTS            OF     SOMETHING OTHER

22          'T'HAN                                                                                               YOU      MAY      ANSWER

23          'I'HI': QUF:S'rrON.

/,4                                         YOU          UNfJERSTANU THE QURSTfON?

                                            T H £0:      W 1 'I' N ..~ S S :           YF:S,        :;;].lL
                                                              -.
                                                              (T   •       Schepers               -     Direct                                    120


     1      !                                 THE        COUR'l':               OKAY.

          ,I     A •           'J' HEW EAR I N G () F                       THE        MAS K          W0 U IJ D     HAV E         PRE V EN '1' E D
          II
          !;
          i'

     3           SOME          OF      THE         FIBERS                  FROM        ENTRRING               HIS      LUNGS               WHERE            HE
          i!
     4    II     WAS        W0 R KIN G •                 'I' HEM ASK S                 A R:Eo;    N EVE RiO 0              P £0; R C EN T
          I,
          Ii,I   EFFEC'I'IVE.                      AND        SINCr:            1'1"     S       VERY        DTS'I'URBJNG                  '['0    HAVE


     6
          Ii.i   TO       WEAR         A      MASK        ON           YOUR          FACE         ALL        DAY     LONG,            PEOPLE
          '
          II
     7    il     TEND         '1'0      .
                                       1.IFT         THEM              UP     IN       ORDER           TO     TAl,K        TO       SOMEBODY
            I
     8      I
            I
                 E IJ S E     0 R      T A K Eo;     A    URI N K             0 F'     WA'T' ERA NOS 0 MET J M t<~ S                         THE Y
            i
     9           JUST         GET          TIRED          AND              HANG        IT        AROUND           THEIR           NECK            F()R      A

10               WHILE           AND          PUT        fT        BACK         ON       WHEN          THEY         FIRST           CAN           STAND


11               IT.
          I
12                            SECONDLY,                   MASKS               ARE        NOT          ALWAYS         PERFECTLY                     FITTED

          II
          II     AND        THE       DUST           CAN           GET        IN       ALONG           THE        SIDES           AND       THE
13

1.4       I      PERSON              WON'T           NECESSARILY                         KNOW          THAT.           BU'f'        THE           EEt'FECT


15        I      o 1" 'r H r~        MAS K         1ST 0               R F. [) U C E     'r H E       A M 0 UN'}'    0 F     L)   U S 'r     HEW 0 U I J 0

16               INHALE,               AND,          THEREFORE,                        WOULD           LOWER         THE          nOSE            TO     HiS

17               BODY         TTSSUE,                'l'HEREFORE,                      HE        DID     A   GOOD          'rHING           fl'0       DO


18               SO,        OKAY?


19                            THr::        SF.CONO            QUfo;s'rlON                WAS          WHJ:4:THER       STOPPING


20               SMOKING              HAD          ANY        EFFECT.                    SMOKTNGING                  OR      NO       SMOKING,


21               THE        AMOUNT            OF         ASBESTOSIS                      YOU          GET     FROM         BREATHING


22               ASBESTOS                  DUST IS THE                        SAME.               IT     DOJ:o~SN'fr         DECREASE                    .1'1'.

23               BUT        '['HE     CESSA'T'ION                      OF     SMOKING                 PROLONGED              HIS           JolFE


24               BF:CAUSF.            SMOKING                 1S           HARM.FUL.             AND     CAN        HAVfo;        EE"FEC'l'S             ON

2.   l)          H   rS     H 1."; A R 'I',   () N       HIS           K   r D N F: Y SAN f)           HIS        S fI' 0 MAC HAN 0                S0       (rp
                                                            G.       schepers                  -    Ilirect                                    i ). i



   1        KEP'l'     HIM                            IT       lMPROVkD                    HIS      CHANCES              OF         SURVIVAL


  2         THAT       WAY.

  3                    '1' HE         S M 0 KIN G              W0 U [.0        H A V ERE DUe ED                        'r HER I         SK    0 F'

  4         CAN C fi~ R       TO           HIS        RES P I R A 'I' 0 R Y                'I' RAe T     I J 1 K j<~    WE     'r A L KED            A


            MOMft~W{,         AGO.                THE          SMOKING                WOULD            HAVE            HAD                    WHETHER


  6         OR     NOT        HE           CONTINUED                   SMOKING                OR       STOPPED               SMOKING                 WOULD


  7         HAVE       NO         EFFECT                  ON     THE        MESOTHELIOMA.                               HE     WOUIJD            GET         IT


  8         ANYWAY.

            Q.         DOCTOR,                     YOU         SAID         'l'HA'r         'rHF:      IJONGF.:R         THE            PERSON


10          t.lVED.               WHAT,               [F'      ANY,         R 0 I.• 1:1:    W0 U I.. D     THE          LEN G THO Ii'                L 1 }<' r~


11          THAT       A      PERSON                  HAS        PLAY          TN          WHETHER            OR        NOT         A    PERSON

12          WERE       j<'   ROM           AN     F; X P 0 SUR r;           'I' 0     A S B E S 'r 0 S        T ()      D EVE t. 0 peA N C }<; R ?


1 3         HOW      CO U L D              T H A'I'       P IJ A Y     A    R 0 I. g ?

14          A.         A      G REA T             IH': A L .           THE          ASBESTOS               FIBERS              ACT           SLOWLY

       I                                                             EACH           ~IBER           MAKES              DAMAGE            WHERE              THE
15          AND      CUMULATIVELY.
       II
       I,
       iI
16     II   FIBER            IS      AND          'l'H8N         YOU        HAVE            '1'0    WAIT         FOR         ANOTHER                 FIBER


17     :j   Toe C) M E            fT' ()     M A 1< E       0 A MAG E          A 'r        AN 0 THE R         S PO rp        () R       FOR      lr H E

18          f:i'IBER         TO      BREAK                UP     I.IKE         WE;         'rALKED         ABOU'P            AND         BECOMfO;


19          MOR.E      THAN                ONE        FIBER            AND          MOVE           AROUND.               ALL            THA'I'       TAKES


20          'rIME.

21                     THE REA R r:                       B 1 lrIJ TON S            0 F     S POT SIN                  THE     L U NG         'I' H A '1'

22          NEED       TO         BE         DAMAGED                 Bfi;I"ORI:I:          T'HE     DTSEASli:            WIld . •        SHOW            UP.

2_i         IN     FACT',            YOll         HAVti:         'ro DES'l'ROY 60                        PERCEN'1'             OF        THr:        LUN(i


/. 4        'I' T S SUI':     B}<~ fi' 0 R"I':        A     lJ () C '1' 0 RCA NOT A G NOS F;                           IT.


            <.J.       t. fi; 'P M 1-:          T N 'f' F; l<. R lJ P ff'   Y () U •          WH E: N      Y () USA Y               D T S 1'; A S £0: ,
                                                    (,.        S   ch   Po   per s              -          l)   ire c     t.                              1 ). ).



  1       YOU        Mr~ A N AS B):i; S IIi 0 S J S?

  2       A.           AS B E S 'ro:-; 1 s .              'rHf:t;       LOWER                   THf:t;              DOS£o;,        'rHEO;        I,ONGf-:R           'J'HE

  3       P r; R SON WT I, L.           TEND         '110          L I V E AND '1' H E 1..0 N G to: R 1 'P WTid., 'r A K E

  4       FOR        HIM '1' 0        D E V f-; 1,0 PAS B E S 'I' () S ( S .                                        so     r)4' YOU LOWEI< THE

  5       [) 0 S E     BY Wr~ ART N (y ARE S P I RAT 0 R:                                                  A N I)        TF       YO lJ      INC R F; AS E

  6       'r HE      1. 0 N G E V T '[' Y    () F    'II H E        PER SON                     BY              NOT       S M 0 KIN G

  7       CIGARETTES,                  THEN          YOU MAKE                             HIM              L1VE           LONG            ENOUGH              TO

          GET THOSE               DISEASES                     WHOSE                     LATENCY                     PERIODS                 ARE          LONGER

  9       '['HAN '['HE           IJATENCY            PER 1 ODS                           OF'    ASBESTOSIS.

10                     LA'I'ENCY            PERIOD OF                        ASBESTOSIS                                  IS       20      YEARS.

11    I   LA'rENCY            PERIOD            FOR            MESOTH.F:LIOMA                                       DUf4; TO CHRYSOTJ IJE                                IS

12
      I
      !
          30      YEARS          ON    AN       AVERAGE.                                 AGAIN,                     BELL-SHAPED CURVE

13        WITH         VARIATIONS                   ON         EITHER                     SlDto:.

14                     SOl F          YOU       CAN MA K E                         I)'   HEM AN                     L I V E 'I' HAT              EXT RAT E N

15        YEARS,            HE    LIVES             INTO THE TIME THE                                                    MESOTHELIOMA CAN

16        BECOME OPERATIVE.

17                                                                                             YOUR                 HONOR,             COUNSEl,

18        DOESN'T HAVE THE                           EXHIBITS THAT                                              HE       USED          HANDY              AND

19        Hfo;'S       A(7REE;D        FOR          THF; TIME                            BRING                  1    MAY          US F.; COPIES                     I'VE

2 0       BEE NAB L E '110 0 B TAr N                               1N        1..   r F; U 0         ]:i'        HIS       A 1, REA 0         Y

21        PREV10USLY                  MARKED              COPIES.

                                  THE COUR'I':                          A (,],            R    r GHT            •        INASMUCH                    AS    THEY

),3       ARE                    MARKED COPIES                               ARE               NOT AVAILABLE,                                    I    WOULD

24        SUGGEST THEN                      UNDER              THOSE                     CIRCUMSTANCES                                 WHATEV~R                     IT

25        TS      T H A'r    Y 0 {)    U S.F;       Y0    (J       MA K E                R F: FER ENe E                   '1' 0    '1' H E       SAM 1';
                                                         G.       s~hRpRr~                    -      Direct                                     1 ). .1


           MAKKfl\lG             THA'l'         WAS         (71V~;N             TN      'PHfi;       VIUE';O'I'APfo~             I)F:POSI'J']ON


  2        AND          WF: ' t. IJ   M A )( KYO U Reo PYA S                                  'I' H J:o~     (A)      COpy         lJ S 1 N G        'I' H fi~

  3        SAM E          N U M B Ii: I{    B U'l'       W J '1' H A D E S 1 G N A 'I" E I)                      (A )     SO       I F      1 'I'    WE R ti:


 4         D-l          IT     WOUIJD           BI:!:    D-1 (A)               OR       D-2 (A) .


  5                                   MR.         M ceo NNE; [, 1.. :                     I       UNDERSTAND,                      YOUR             HONOR.


 6                                    I     DON'T                HAVE          Al.d.      'PHE             STUDIES             COUNSEl,              HAD,


 7         SO       I     CAN'T            USE          ALL       OF         THEM.

 8                                    THE         COURT:                     WHICHEVER                      ONE       YOU'RE               USING,


 9         L E 'f   's       COR R 0 I, A 'I' J:o~       'I' HEM       W T 'r H         'I' H E      SAM E         MAR K J N G •
      I
      I
iO                                    MR.         Mceo NNE IJ t. :                        YES,              SIR.


11
      I
      I    BY       MR.        Me     CONNELL:
      Ii   Q•
12                        'I' HEN U M B E R S               W 0 U J..T)         BE:     - -
      "I

11                                    THE         COlJR'r:                   WHATEVE:R                     IT    IS     THAT           YOU          HAVE


14         THAT           YOU'RE            GOiNG                TO    USE.               WHEN              YOU       GET        TO        IT


15         UN I. E S S         YOU         WAN 'r        '1' 0    MAR K           ']' HEM         NOW?


16                                                                                        I       BETTER              MARK         THEM             NOW.


17                                    'I' H E     C 0 U R '1' :              HAVE         THEM              ALL       MARKED               NOW       AND


18         THEN          YOU'LL             JUST            CORROLATE                     THEM              AND       MARK         THEM


1'1        A C COR DIN G i. Y •

20                                    MR.         MC        CONNEIJL:                     I       APOI,OGIZE.                      I       DIDN"r


21         REALIZE               COUNSEL                DIDN'T                 HAVE           HJS           COPIES             WITH         HIM.


2),                                   THE         COUR'r:                    WH A '1'     [S        THE          ti" IRS 'I'    0 N J:o~    T H F.: R     E?

23                                    MR.         MC        CON N      fo~   I, IJ :      THfo;            08Ff:o;NSfo:        fo.:XH I H ['1'       ONfi:.


24                                    THE         COURT:                     GE:NT1,EMfi:N,                     WHY     DON' 'I'           YOU       SEE


25         J F'     YOU        CAN         CORROI.A'J'[<:              'rHEM            HER£':             ']'OGE:THER?
      \1


                                                         (;.      Schepers                      -     lJirect                                       1 ). 4



  1                                    MR.        M ceo NNE JJ IJ :                         T       ']' HI N K    '1' HE       F' A S 'r E S'T'         WAY


  2
       I    FOR    M F;       '1' 0    S IMP [, Y          f< 1': r' fi: R      '1' 0     'Ii HEM       BY       THE       N A M It:       0 1:0'     'Ii H E
      ;!
      i\
      I'
      ,I    AUTHOR            BECAUSE                  THA'r' S              HOW          COUNSEl,               R fo:FERR t4:D            TO         'l'HEM
      Ii

  4         ANYWAY.
      'I:
                                                                             HOWEVER                  YOll       TDEwr-1 FY                THEM,                I


 6          DON'T         K NOW          HOW           T H r: Y     WE R}t;             Il 0 N E •

 7                                     MR.       Me        CON N £0; LoIJ :                 'r HAN KYO U,                  S JR.


 8          BY    MR.         MC       CONN~LL:



 9          Q.         o () <:'1' 0    R,      T' D        I, I K £t~        'T' 0      S HOW         YOU,         1F      I     MAY,               WHAT


10          HAVE       BEEN            MARK~D              OEFkNSE                      t4:XHIBrTS               ON     THE        OTHER


11          COPIES            WE       JUS~            REFERRED                      TO.            THEY         ARE       THE         STUDY                 OF


12          MINERS            BY       RUBINO,                 THE           STUDY              OF      MINERS             BY      FIRST                NAM~D


13          AUTHOR            NICHOIJSON,                      AND           'rHE         S'T'UDY         OF      CHRYSOTIl,E                        MINERS


14          BY    THE         FIRST            NAMED              AUTHOR                 Me         DONA1.D,            AND        ASK              YOU

1 5         HAVE       YOU            HAD      A 1\I     0 P PO R 'T' (J N r 'r Y               T HIS        M 0 R N INC;          'J' 0      REV lEW


16          THOSE         STUDIES?


17          A.         YES,            SIR.


18          Q.         AND            HAVfo;     YOU           HAfl          AN         OPPORTUNITY                     'ro      SEE          THE

19          CHAI<'l'      1     PR8PARED                   'rHIS             MORNING                 Wl'I'H       OA'I'A         F'ROM              '],HOSI';


),0         STUDIES?


21          A.         YF.!:I,         SIlL


            Q.         ANI)           f)O~;S     THF;          !lA'I'A.         ACCURA'f'El,Y                    RI<~FJJEC'I'          POR')'[()NS


23          OF THE DATA                     PNES~NTRD                        lN         THOSE           STUDJES?


).4         A.         Y"~S •


25          Q.         AND,            DOCTOR              --
         I
        II


                                                          G.    scheper!::                -       Il;reci.



  '1                                      MR.      SCHACH'l'MAN:                      l-'F:kHAPS                   HI-(.        MC       CONNEl..b


  ;;,        AND        1     COUIJD           CONFER            fo'OR     A     MINWrE                 '1'0       SPEED             ']'HINGS


  .3         ALONG.


  4                                       THE:     COLJR'r:              SUR t<;.


  5          BY       MR.      M ceo N N f<: IJ 1.1 :


  6
        ,    Q .            DOC TOR,              I N     ADD I '1' ION,          I   I   D       J, I K F<..:     rp 0    S HOW             YO LJ


 7      I    STUDIES              WHICH            HAVE         BEEN            MARKED               AS          DEFENSE                 EXHIBITS


  8          FROM           THE      STUDY              OF     FACTORY            WORKERS                        BY       ACHESON,                   STUDY

 q           OF       CEMENT              WORKERS              BY     GARDNER,                    STUDY               OF        A CHRYSOTILE

10           T EXT I L, E         P LA N'r          BY       to' IRS T     N A MEn            AUT H 0 R               Me        Il 0 N A IJ D,        STU U Y


11           OF       PRE l, I M T N A R Y              R E; PO R T S      SUM MAR I Z I N G                       '1' H R E to;     AS B r~ S '(' 0 S


12           AMERICAN                F'ACTORIES                 BY       Me      DONAl,D                AND           FRYt!:;,           A


13           MORTALTTY                    STUDY          O~     WORKERS               MANUFA(~TURfNG                                 FRICTION


14           MAT Ii: R I A I, S           BY      NEW H 0 US 1";         AN II    S U 1.1, I V AN,                    F 0 L 1J 0 W - UPS T U 0 Y


15           OF       WORKERS              FROM          ASBESTOS                CEMENT                 FACTORIgS                        BY      ~HOMAS,


16           A     STUDY          OF                      AMON(~         ASHES'J'OS                 Ci:t:MENT              WORKERS                   BY


17           OHT,SOI.'J;          FIRST            NAMED            AUTHOR,               AND           A        STUDY             OF'


18           CHRYSOTJLE                    ASBESTOS                 WORKKkS               BY        DEMENT,                     ~IRST            NAMED


19           AUTHOR,              AND          ASK       YOU        IF     I     ASKED              YOU            TO      REVIEW                THOSE


20           STUDIES              'PODAY?


21                                        MR.      SCHACHTMAN:                        OBJECTION.


2),                                       '{'HE    WI ,{'NF;SS:                 YES,          T     HAVE.


23                                        THE      COUR')':              J lJ S T A M 0 MEN 'I' .


24                                        MR.      SCHACHTMAN:                        MY          () B .} fS C T ION               1 S       S IMP 1, Y


25           o N F:    () F    'T' H F:    A R '1'1 C IJ E S        'r H A 'r    WAS          r 0 1': N'I'       I !:" T ~~ D      AS        A
                                                          (y.      Schppers                 -    I);rpct.                                i?6



   1            PR8I,IMINARY                     S'rUDY         IS      NO'l'     ON 1': 0 .. ' 'PHi'!:      ONI<;S          'PHA'r'                USED

   2            WITH         DR.        RI':rCHMAN.

   3                                      MR.        MC        CONN8LI,:                YOU       DIDN'T              US8      SUMMARY?

   4                                      MR.        SCHACHTMAN:                        I       DIDN'T US8                  PR8LIMfNARY

   5            STUDY AT ALL.

   6                                      MR.        MC        CONNELL:                 OKAY.

   7        i                             MR.        SCHACHTMAN:                        THAT        WAS      AN            EARLIER
        Ii
        i
   8    !       ARTT C 1, [0;.

   CJ                                     THF:       COUR'j':                WHICH          ON8     WAS      THAT?

10              IDENTIFIED                     AS    WHAT?

11
        II                                                                              THAT ONE             WAS            TH8     ONE             THAT

12
        II      SAID         MESOTH8LIOMA                       AND          FIBER

13
        II                                THE        COUR'l':                BY   WHOM?
        II
14
        II                                                                              BY MC DONALD AND FRYE,
            I
            I
15              PRE    [J   1 MIN AR Y           REP 0 R '}'

16                                        THE        COURT:                  THAT       WILL        BE     DELETED.

17                                        MR.        MC        CONNELl.:                OKAY.

J8              BY     MR.       MC       CONNfUtlJ:

"1 <1           Q.           AND,         f)   0 C TOR,         H A V .1':    YOU       HAD       AN 0 l-' PO R 'T' UN J l' Y               'I' 0

2 0             R Eo; V lEW      THE           MA 'I' F: R I A I., S 'r H A'r       T       ASK ED       Y () U      'r 0    l.. 0 0 K      A '['

21              TODAY          AND AS WELL AS TO LOOK AT THIS CHART?

22              A.           YES,         SIR.

                Q.           AND        H A V }<;    Y0   (J    HAD          AN 0 P P () R TUN I 'I' Y            '\.' 0    SEE     .1 F'      THE

?4              T N F' 0 R tv1 A 'J'   ION       WH T C H       1S     CON TAT NED                0N     'r H E      C H A R '1'    CAM E

? .~            FRO MEl 'I' H 1": R 'T' H f<;             C H A H T S () R 'I' EXT                I NTH E S 'T' U D Y ?
                                                                          G.        Schp.pers                            -     Direct.                                                    1;'7



    1         A.                 YES,            SIR.


    2         Q.                 Doerr 0 R            t      'r H E        1., A U I to; SAN n                           G F: N T I. EM E N                    0 F         THE            J URY            - -

    3         A.                 c 0 U 1, D           YOU           M 0 V E l 'r                    RAe K                A     fJ I '1"1' L E             .A   rT          BEe AU S I!;               I    I   M


    4         S   f.o~   E: I N G      J '1'     S LAN' I' I N (T                   T' HER £0; •

    5                                           TH£o:             COURT':                       CAN            YOU             S E £0:      'I' H A 'i'        I      I., A f) I E SAN D


    6         GENTI.EMF:N?                                    r      MEA N,                 1.1 A D I 1'; SAN D                      G E N '1' 1. E MEN                         0 F       THE


    7         JURY           1
                                    CAN         YOU               READ              WHAT'S                     THERE?


    8                                           '1'Hl:':          dURY:                     YES.


    9                                           THE               C 0 U R '}' :                 I     CAN"r.

          I
10
         II   BY          MR.          MC       CONNELL:

          i
11            Q.                 DOC TOR              I      V E: R Y          H R 1 E F I., Y             reo U I., n                   YOU              '}' E IJ JJ           THE        I .. A 0 I E S


12            AND           G E N T L. EM E N                     () F'    ']' HE           J URY              '1' HI':        I NIl I V] lHJ A I,                         N lJ M fn; R S


13            'T' HAT            J' V E          jJ   I S 'I' /:I: 0       AS         [)ft:     A '[' H S       I       '1' H 0 S j<~       ARE                NO 'I'           T H l';    'T' 0 TAL,


14            NUMBERS                    OF           PEOPLE                   THAT                 WERE                SURVEYED                          IN          THOSE


15            STUDIES,                         IS         ['('?


1h            A•                 NO.            'I' HEY IRE:                   () N I, Y            T H }o;           P EO P L F.           WHO                D I to;     f)      AND         fo' 0 J:<

17            WHO MOE A 'r H                          D A TAW fo; R 1<;                     A   v A 1 J, A H fJ E              •


1H            Q.                 AND tOO C 'I' () R t                           [     W0 U 1. D                l. T      K~;        TO      S HOW                  Y () U          WH A '}'        HAS


19            BEEN               MARKf.:D                 AS                          WEi; [J I,       I       1.<'   I J:< S '}'    I. E T           ME           C; ()        HAC K          A


2 0 M I N U'I' 1<; •

:;>, 1                           0 N     'I' H E          C H A R 'r           II.' H fo:       N U M HER S                    L. 1 S    'I' E   j)       A R r;           DE AT H S •


2 2           WHY           W0 U L 0            'r H A 'I'          B r~       A NAP P R () P R I A '1' E                                N U M B r; R                'I' ()        1J 0 () K       A 'I'


23            AS          OPPOSft~D                   '1'0        'PHE         'rOTAL                 NlJMBfo;R                     THA'r             WAS            SURVEYl':D?


24            A •                BE: C A USE                 '1' H F:      PUR i-' 0 S r~                  0   r'       'I' HI<;     STU         f)   Y        I S         if' 0      FIN D          0 WI'


25            WHA'r              THE           'PO'PAI,             ANI)            Ul.'l'lMA'!'f':                     ft~ftft'fi;C'I'          OF            AS8ESTOS                        IS     I
    i            AS           'T' H to: S E       S 'T' U JJ 1 fo: S          CH'         A S B EST' 0 S                 W0 R K fO< S rON                      l' H E    PER SON


   2     [I
             I   A 1\1   f)      D fo; A 'I' HIS                  'r H F;     1': N j)       P 0:1 N'I' •
         'I
                                   I'll 0 W r           W HE 1\1       YO lJ          H A V 1';        A       I .. 1 S TIN (T         O.£<'     P EO P LEW H 0 r
   3
         Ii
         II      SAY,              WORK                 IN        THE:        MINES               OF          CANADA;                  SOMEBODY                     MAY        BE
   4
         II
   5     II      AWARE                OF'l 0,000                            PEOPLE                WORKING                       THERE;           BECAUSE                 YOU        CAN
         II
   6     II
         Ii      G E '1'        A I .. L      '[' H 1'; I R         I'll A M J:i~ S       FRO M            ']' H J:i:    MAN AGE R              0 ft'     'I' H E
         ;1
         Ii
   7         !   E'ACTORIE:S                            AND         'l'Hfo~N          fl'"       yOU          ASK          HIM         WEI,l"             HOW           LONG
         Ii
   8             HAVE              THEY                 WORKED                HERE?                    YOU              MA Y     F [NU          ']'HA'l'         OF      'I'HA'T'
         !I
   q                                                         5 rOO 0
         II      1 0 , 000                 0 N 1, Y                                HAVE           W0 R K F; D              M0 R E        'J' HAN          20        Y F.: A R S •


10
         II                        WE         K NOW               'r HAT           A S B r~ S 'I' 0 S 1 S,                 PAR T J (: U L A R i, Y
         'I  I
             I
11           I   C H R Y S () 'r] I. F:                   A S B E: S TO S T S,                    'j   S      A         S IJ 0 W M 0 V I N G              PRO C E: S SAN IJ
             I
             ~
12       '
         !!      THE            DISEASE                      DORS             NOT            BECOME                     01AGNOSEABLE                           IN       20     YEANS
         Ii
1.3              TIME.
         II
14       II                        SO         r'UR           PRAC,]'JCAL.                        PURPOSES                       YOU'RE               NO']'       L,F.ARNING
         I

15               ANYTHING                         F'IH)M            'J'Hj<~        S'PA'rrS'rJCS                         1£0'    yOU           INClolJDE;               AId,    OF'


I 6              T H j<;        0 NES             'j'   H A'T'      W0 R K )<; U             IJ to; S S       '.(' HAN          20     Y to: A R. S       BEe A U S 1';         '[' H .r~


17               E:FFEC'('                 IS           NO'J'       GOIN(,;               'T'O    BE;         'eHERI':.


18               EX C 1tlJ D E                '1' HI<: M .


19                                 'I'HE          RES'l'            WAY            '['0      PROC)<:F:D                   [S     (TO     '110        'rHI:<:     D~~ATHS



20               FIR S TAN n                            '1' HEN        W0 R K             B A C K WAR 0 S                  ft' ROM       'I' H A 'r .

/, J             Q.                NOW        I         'r HAT         W() {J JJON 'T                  B)<;       '[' R U ft;    [F'     WE':        Wf; R f<~      'r R Y 1 N G      TO


22               8 V A L U ATE,                         F' 0 I<     ] N S 'I' A N C 1<;,               W H A 'I'         A M 0 U N '1'         a F      IJ U S TWO U I, D


2.i              HAVE              'j'HE':        EFr't<;Cfl'               Of<'      CAllS I N(T                 ASIH;S'T'OS,                  WOlJ[,[)            IIT'?


24               A.                NO.


), .'1                                                  MR.         S C HAC WI' MAN :                             () H.J   i'!: C' f' JON       'T' 0     'r HEft' 0         RM •
         II
                                                                       G.         sch~pers                         -    oir~ct                                        1 ;, 9



   1          A•             NO.               'I' HI S I S                   W   r or H      C A I'J C £0: R •

          I                                    l' H F;         (: 0 U R 'J' :              r'     I., [,      A L, IJ () W       I 'I'     '1' 0    B J:t~    A S f< ED         AND


    3         ANSWERF:U.

   4          BY       MR.           M ceo N N 1:'; J, L, :


   5          Q.             B U 'I'         .1 N       '1' H 1:';     H Y I-' () '1' HE']' rCA L                      WHIe H I P R E; S 8 N T F; D                          YOU


   6          OF'      AN       INDIVIDUAl,                              WHO           DrF;S               F'ROM          Mr;SO'J'HEI,JOMA,                           WHY            IS


   7          I '1'    '1' H A 'T'      'I' HIS            1 N FOR MAT ION                           1S            PRO P 1'; k           AND        R l!~ 1, E V A N 'I'        TO
         II
   8          BEL 00 KED                       A'1'        AND            WH A '1'         CAN             I '1'       S HOW          US        W I 'I' H     REG A RUT 0
          I
              'f'HE       HYPO'T'HETICAL                                  1       POSEU             'l'O           yOU?
         ,I
         Ii

10       I'                                   MR.              SCHACH'l'MAN:                                 OBJEC'l'lON.                           MI(.


1J            M c e o NNE L LIS                                fl 0 1 N G            A L.1,       THE              'r A IJ K [   NG        HER f; .            HE'S


12
         I    LEADING.

                                               'PHI';          COURT:                      y 1'; S .               IT'S          IN        THE          NATURE               OF


14                           POSE              THE             QUESTIONS.


15                                             MR.             Me        CONN8ld.,:                           Y E;S .


16                                            THE             COURT:                       .JUS')'           POS8            'rHE          QUES'f'] ONS                    AGA] N.


17            I       THJNK             WHEN               yoU           ::;'I'Al<'1'         "'AlJKING                   AHOU'P                COMPARISON                      WI'J'H

1 8           R F~ GAR D             'I' 0     YOU R                 H Y P 0 'I' H F.: 'I' J CAL"                      P0 S g         'I' H E      QU   fi: S '1' ION        I N

l 9           YOU R         H Y P 0 'ro H Eo; 'I' J CAL                       AND          H A V £o~         'T' HER fi;         jJ   A 'T' ION::; HIP             'T' 0     THE

20            D A 'T' A     'r E: S T        1 FIE D                 TOT N            QUE S 'I' 1 0 N                   J:t' 0 R. M      S O l 'J'           CAN      BE


21            ANSWERED                       PROPfi:kl,Y.


;),;),        BY       MR.           Me       CONN}.;L,IJ:


),3           Q.            DOC 'I' 0 R             r      W H A 'I'          I. S    '/' H 1':      HAC KG R 0 U N DIN C J DEN C E                                        £0' 0 R


24            MESOTHELIOMA?


              A.             .i']']S                Zfi:RO.                                                                                                    'I'HERE               Ak 1<;
        I'
        11
        il
        Ii                                                                                                    ujrec~                                          1 .i ()
        II                                                       G.       schepers                     -
        II
        !I
   1         '!'wo     'I'YPf!:S               <H"      Mr:SU'.l'Hr:l,JOMA,                      BENIGN                       MESO'I'Hfn.. IOMA                    AND

        I:
        Ii   MAl, 1 G NAN 'I' •                      BENIGN              HAS           AN     INCIDENCr~                            ABOUT           ON£!:       Pfi:R
        Ii
        i'                                                                                 MALIGNANT                          IS      ZERO.

   4         <2.           IF        YOU             HAVE          --         AS       THER~'S                  BEEN                SOME         TESTIMONY,


   5         W F:    A IJ I,     AR      r.:     E X P () SED            'f' ()    S 0 MEA S B E S 't' 0 S                          F' I B E; R S •           HOW         CAN


   6         THAT          AFFECT                    THE         RATE             OF       INCIDENCE                          OF      MESOTHELIOMA?


   7         A.            'I' H E       B A C KG R 0 U NUL E V 1': L                         0 J:i'       EX P () SUR E                I N      AM E RIC A N
        I'
        ,I   CITIES              IS            SO       RELATIVELY                         LOW         THAT               1T        SLOWS           UP        THE
         I
         i
             PRO n u C T ION                     0 F'     A      D 1 S ft~ A S E - I J IKE:                M 1:<: S 0     'r H f<: I.oJ 0   MAS 0             V E: R Y
   9

10           MUC H         'J' H A 'I'         I N      A L IJ     PRO B A BTL, J 'I' Y,                      SIN C E               H lJ MAN        L I F' E'I' I M"~


1J
        II   I S     F T NIT i<~,                'I' HE       PEt< SON             WI i.J.,      D 1}4:         0   }<'       SO ME         0 'I' H l<~ R     DIS E AS E
        II
12      II   BEE' 0 R E         HE             G I!: 'I' SAM E SOT HE L ] 0 MAW I 'P H                                         K ARE          EX eft; P 'I' rON S .


1 .i    Ii   Q •           no c      'I' 0 K,           'I' H E S }<;    E P 1 () EM] 0 i, 0 G I CAL                           STU 0 1 f'; S          T H A 'I'         I' V E

        II
        Ii
14           ASKEU             YOU             TO       REVIEW,                   WHAT        UO           THEY               USE       AS       THE          BASIS
         I
1S           FOR       THE 1 R                 DE '1' E: R M f N A 'r ION              1    cao: N ERA L 1. Y                  S p~: A KIN G,                 IN


16           THEIR             CATEGORIES                          AS         TO       THE       CAUSES,                       VARIOUS                CAUSES                OF


17           DEATH?


18           A.            1 NTH ESE                      S 'I' U Tl J fo; S,          AS     FAR             AS          T    R E C A I, L,          'I' HEY           U S ft: D


19           DEATH             CERTIFICATES.


20           Q.            AND           I'D            LTKF;           'PO       ASK       YOU,              AR~:            YOU       FAMILIAR                   WITH


2 1.         HOW       D   ft: A '1' H         C E R 'J' J ]:0' I C A 'I' E        1 N FOR M A 'I' ION                        J S    G A 'I' H 1:<:: R E [)     1. N


22           E PI 0 g M I 0 JJ 0 G J C A I,                      S '(' U 0 J r; s?

), .1        A.            YF:S,               SIlL


24                         AND           COULd)               YOlJ       COMP),AlN                     'J'O     'I'Ht<~        L,AlJIES             AND


25           Gfo;N'rJJI':Mfr~N                 (n'      'r'Hr~     dURY            S()M~         OF           'I'Hf<;         PI{OBL,}<;MS             INHr;Rfo~Wl'
       II
       "                                                                                                                                             1.11
       II                                               G.         scheperR                       -     Jlirect.



  1    II   IN     SEARCHING                    FOR       DATA                THROUGH                   DEATH               CERTfFICATES?
       I
            A.           lHi~ A 'P H      C F; R Il' T FIe A 'I' E S                 G R E: A T I, Y          UN D E R S '1' ATE                THE


  3         PROBLEMS               OK         DISEASE                    AND         THEY             SOMETIMES                   COMPLETELY


  4         M J S S 'I' A T 1';    '[' H E      f' ROB I, f:': M S            0 f'      [) I S f<~ A S E .              DEATI1


  ;;        C E R 'r II" I C A 'I' E S          ARE       0 F      1:"   I C l AL          DOC lJ MEN T S                   WH I C H        A R F:

  6         SLJPl:'OSEIl           '\'0       HE       r'II.IJED              OU'I'        BY         DOCI'ORS               WHO        ARE

  7         KNOWLEDGEABLE                          ABOUT                 THE         PERSON'S                  CAUSE              OF        DEATH,


  8         C A USE        01"1 i, L, N F. S SAN DIS                                 COM P L E 'f' E JJ Y               K NOW l, ED G E A B I. E                0F

  9         THE      PERSON'S                   DkATI1             PROCESS.


10                       NOW,          MANY            PEOPLE                 D[E          UNEXPECTEDLY.                                THEY            ARE


11          OUT      ON      A     FARM            SOMEWHERE                         OR      THEY'RE                    FISHING                 AND


12          'I' H r: Y , REF 0 U N D               D E ADO R                  'II HEY , REI N                  'r H E I      RHO MEA N D
       I:
13     II   THEy'RE               FOUND            DEAD            AND            THEY            DIDN'        'r       ATTEND              A     DOCTOR,

:1 4        SO     NOBODY              KNOWS            WHA'P                HAD        BEEN            GO [NG              ON.


15                       NOW,          ,Eo'OR      'rHOS£';              PEOPL,r;            'rHERE' S                  A    MEDICAL


16          EXAMINING                  SYS'J'EM            I   N         'THOSE;           COUN'rl Ei;S                 REQUJR ING                   AN


1.7         AU'J'OP:-:;Y          BY      A     G()VI:O~NMEN'r                       OFf'ICTAL                 CALL:ED              MEDICAl,


IB     I    EXAMINER.                     HEW I L.J,               'r H E: N         C j-i; R 'I' I ft' Y    'r H 14:       C A Us 8        OF       [) ,,; A 'I' H •
       "

19     i:                NOW,          IF'      Ht':    ()().I!;S            AN      AlJ'I'OPSY              OR         lH)jO;S     A       BODY

       Ii
20     II   EXAMII'IA'rION                    o.       DO"S              A    RECORns                   REVIEW               ON     EVERY              CASE,

21     II   YOU      MAY          GET         ACCURA',rE                     RF:CORDS.                      BU'I'       MY     EXPERIENCE,

2),         H A V J N (~     S I:i: R V E fJ       [N     '1' H A rr          R 0 1,1':      .f<' 0 R       ABO     orr      T H l< fi: E       M 0 N'P H S


2.3         MYSEl, .."            WAS         'rHAT       'PHIS               VERY            SEL,DOM               HAPPENS.                     'I'HA'P


). 4        M A .J 0 R   r 'f Y    0 F        U EAT H          C E R ~r 1 f<' .I (: A'r E SOl:"                     '1' HAT       KIN DAR. 1:';


25          S f(;N¥;J)       BY        'rHf'~      MOR'I' Ie I AN.                        H J<;       HAS      ABU N C H                0F       1:3 1, A N K
           Ii
           "




                                                                        (.;.        s c h e per!;             -     I)   ire c      t.                                        j   .i ),



       i
           II   r'ORMS            AND          HE            pU'l'S            UN      'l'Hl':Ri<;       CAUSE                01"        THi:ArJ'H               AND              SOMI':


           II   DOCTOR                STGNS                  'I'HF:        'l'HING          f:o'Ot<      HIM             B":CAUSF~                    J      F'OLlND                'JIHAT


       J        HAPPf:t:NING.


       4                        SO        '(,HOSE:             f)ft;A']'H            Cft:R'J'll"ICA'I'F;S                      ARE           NO'l'           ACCURA'rF~


       5        AND          THEY            CANNOT                     B~          IJSED       FUR           EPIDE:MIOLOGICAL                                            STUDIES.


       6        Q.             1) 0   C 'r 0 R t             rN         'I' H 1';    S 'I' U D II': S         T HAT            YO lJ         REV I 1'; WED t e A N

       7        YOU          '.rE; L IJ      MEW HAil' tIl'"                           ANY      t     F;F' F l'~ C T          'T' H F:       E X A C IIi            AM 0 U N '('OF


       8        TIME           OF         EXPOSURR                         THAT           THE         INDIVIDUALS                               HAD              IN           THE


       q        V A RIO IJ S              S 'I' U DIE S             t      AS        E X AMP l, Eo;           HE: REI NTH ..
                                                                                                                           --:                            Me        IJ 0 N A L,I)


10              STUDY             WHERE                 [T'S               ONE         MONTH                                 ANY If' H ] N G                 G REA 'I' F; R


11              T HAN          0 NE          M 0 N 'I' HEX P 0 S (J R J:<:                      QUA b I 1" J EST 0                           B f:t~       IN        'r H E          rl' 0 'J' A IJ


1 ),            COHOR'l'?                    WHAT'             to: F'}t' £0: C 'P CAN               'l' HAT        H A V EON                    '(' H r:


13              STATISTICS?


14              A.             WHAT            THAT                 ))OES            IS     TO        DILUTE                  THE            OBSERVATION


15              YOU'Vi:'~             MADE.                    SUP P 0 SIN G                    () H S F~ R V A T J () N                 J S          'I' H F~      NUMB E R                   0 F'


J6              I.l) NG        CANC ER                 OR           NUM HER               OF        MJt~ SOTHEl.I OM AS                               () R       NUMB Ji:R                  0 F


17                                                                  IT         OILUTES                IT          BY         THE         NUMBERS                          THAT


1 fi            'r H A 'I'     H A V F.        HAD             1'; X P 0 S II RES               T HAT             ARE         IRK E LEV ANT                               AND             N 0 '1'


19              LIKING                '1'0     CAUSE                    THR          DISEASE                  AT         ALL        AND               ALL           YOU             DO         IS


20              FA 1.. S J     r' Y       T H 1':      S 'I' A 'f' T S'J' 1          c: SAN U           G E'1'           A    IJ 0 WF; R              N U M BE R •                        AN))


21              'J'H8N         IT         DOES               I'I'       THE          OTHER            WA Y         'J'OO.                BF:CAUSEIN


). ).           C A IJ C U l. A '(' T N G              'I' H F:         INC IDE WI' S                 () F'       CAN C E R S            t      F' 0 R           INS TAN C E                   t



2.1             '1'0   MAKE               THft~M             l"1J<;ANJ NGft'U1J                 TN       A        s'r'A'I' [scl'lCAl.                        WAY          t       'l'HE


;:>,   4        Doerr 0 R             HAS           'I' ()     COM PAR F;                 0 R       S 'I' A 'Ii I S'I' I C JAN                  HAS              'I' ()       c: () M P A I< E
         l!
         r
                                                                     G.          SChApArS                                -        UirAct                                                 1.13


              WHICH               IS         A       NUMBER                  THAT                IS            PREDJCTED                                 FROM            NATIONAL


    2         s'rATTSTICS .                                  AND        'J'HE;Y              ARE               IN             THE         UNl TED                      STATES                     VERY


   .3         tJ S E F U 1,          TAB U LA']' ION S                           () F'       'r HEN lJ M B I!: R 8                             0 f:<'     CAS 1:': S            0 E"


    4         C 8 R 'r A        rN        T YPE8               0 F      In S r~ A S F: S                       'II H A'1'            0 C CUR               ANN U AI.. L Y I N

   5          D I F' FER E N'f                     C 0 U N'I'J E SIN                         '.I' H :Eo~       U N J '1' ft: D            S 'r A 'I' F; SAN D                       A V ERA G E S

   6          F' 0 R       S 'T' ATE SAN {)                       A V F: RAG "'; S                   FOR                 R F~ G I () N SAN D                           S ()     F' 0 R 'I' H •


   7                            80        If:<'      YOUr            FOR             fNSll'ANCF: r                                ARt<:        I,()OKIN(~                     IN'l'O              'l'Hfi;


   8          Q 1I E S 'I' JON              () F        WH l': T H F; R             I. lJ N G              CAN C E R                   -, S        M0 REP REV A I.                          }<;   NT         l N

   q          A    (~ R 0 lJ P            () F       P EO P 1.£'-':          1. [ V I N G                  HER E                  I NTH I S                  C]' r Y            0 Jo'       CAM D r~ N


10            I N A P ART r c U ), A t<                              1 N D (J S ']' R Y                    HER ",;1 N                     CAM D F: N               r     11' HEN            YOU

11            M {J S '}'        F' 1 N DAN                   F.; <2 U A L,       N U MB E R                    T H A '1'             W() U III>           B 1:0:       1" 0 R       'I' H t:o.:

1 2           B A C KG R 0 U N D                     0 ft'     THE           P t<: 0 P L f;                WHO                W E R f<~        N () 'I'      W0 R K , N (7                  TN


1 3           T H A 'I'         PAR 'I' T CUI. A R                   J N D U S '1' R Y                     AND                ']' HEN          YOU           M A K :Eo;         A


14            COM P A I< ISO NAN D                                T H A ']'      's         C A [, 1, E D                     R I'~ L A T I V E              RI SK


15            C.A L C {ll, A 'r ION.                           ALL           THOSE                  THINGS                           CAN           BE        DONE               WITH

1h            S II' A T T S'II I C S .


i 7                             H U 'j'      fi'   IRS 'I'        YOU            M LJ S 'I'          S '1' A .1<         'r       W T 'I' HAC CUI< A 'r f<~                         In; A T H


18            C fo: R TIl" I C A 'J' E .                       .Ii E C A lJ S F:             '1' H I N G                 JUT) ) N              I   'I'    M to: N 'f' 1 0 N          r      D     1': A ')' H

1 q           eft: R '1' I "" TeA 'II E S,                     'I' H f: y    I   R J:o:      '1' H R f: F;               1J I N E S            'I' ()     f' [ I, L           0 WI'         () N       I]'   H }<~


20            THE          f)   EAT H              C E R Ir J l" 1 CAT g •                           AND                 V~RY             FREQUENTLY                            r        TH~


), 1          FIR S'T'            I. I N F.          W HIe HIS                      SUP PO S                   F.;   D        'r 0     SAY               WH A']'        '1' HER A SIC

2:1.          C AU S E            1 SON JJ Y                   ::-; A Y S        WH A ']'           'I' HEM 1'; C HAN T 8 MOP'                                           rH~ A 'r H               1 S •


:I. .1        SOT HE                 PER SON                   MAY           HA V E              fJ 1 \<; [J             0 J:o'      ME: SO '1' HI'; I. 10M ABU ']'                                 T H l<;


24            C A USE;            () F      DE A'}' H             I 8        W R :I       'r"l' l<; N          [J    0 WN            A seA R D rAe                            A R RES '1' .


              HJ S         H 1<; A .R 'J'          S I]' 0 P P 1<: U         R £<: A 'I'     rNG           .             WE;         A I, I,       U J £0;         W f 'I' H        0 {) R
                                                                 G.         schepers                            -       Oir~c~                                              i .i 4



         H EAR 'J' S             S '[' () I-> PIN (;             A £i; A '(' 1 N (:;. •                   B U 'T'       'f' H R F: E           QUA R '[' E R SOft'                       T H F.

    2    T J Mg           U F: A 'r H       C fOer I 1" I C A 'I'                     /:<:   S     A R.E        P U '1'        J N         'I' H A'r     1<. £0: V f'~ R S £0:


         ORO E R               INS 'I' ~ AU             () 1:"     SA       v r N (;               'I' H F:     BAS ICC AU S .E                           I S


    4    M F. S 0 'I' H ELI 0 M A                   AND            M 14: C HAN J S M                          1 seA 1<. D rAe                      A R RES '1',                ()   I(



         H fo~ M 0 R R HAG B:,                   WH A 'I' f<: V F~ R,                        '1' HEY          P U ']'      1'1'        r   N     REV F; R S E •


   6                     NOW,            T H [I;        S T A 'I' I S 'r I C I A N S                            DON' 'I'               K NOW           '1' H A 'r    .         'T'H8Y


   7     [J   I D N "I'          K NOW           'J' H fi:       P A '1' i g NT.                          WHEN             THEY                GET       HOLD              OF            THE


   8     DEATH                 CERTIFICATES,                                      THEY                ASSIGN                  'PHJ.S             WORK           TO         A

         CLERICAL                     PERSON                     AND              SAY              F1NO             M[I;      ALL              THE       CASES                 WHERE


10       THE          IH~ A '1' HIS                 ld S TED                      AS             M E S 0 'I' H to: I, 10M A •                      AN 0         'fH E


11       CI,ERICAI,                    PRI<SON                   WII.!.I              (,OOK               F'OR          '1'Hfo:        FIRS'f            LIN}<;            AND

I 2      YOU      I   I.. 1,     COM E           UP          W1 'T' H             A          f<' RAe 'I'      ION 0           .f<'     '1' H E    A V A I LAB L E


1.1      CASES.


I4       Q.              DOC'J'OR,                  T'D            LLKF.                     (ro HAND                   YOlf           p-7         WHfCH                 [S         'I'HE

15       0 1<: A 'I' H         C E R '}' 1 FIe A ']' 1';                0   }<'       RON A I, D                H 1 f, 1, .


16       A.              YES,            SII<.


17       Q.              AND           TS        '1' HAT           AN             f<~ X AMP f, E                0 fo'      WH A 'f             YOU       d U S 'I'


1 8      REV ERE N D                  ']' () ?


J9       A.              YES,            SIR.                    HF:Rt<:              IS           AN         F:XAMPI,F:                   OF'     WHr:RE                (fHE


20       QUE S T ION                  0N         'I' H fi:       DE A 'I' H                  C .1': R 'I' I fi' I   c: A '1' to.:      1S        WH A'I'        WAS            '1' H E

),1      CAUSF;                01"                      IMMEDIATE                                  CAUSE                OF           Df.':A'l'H        AND           IT 'S


22       LTSTED                  AS      PNEUMONiTIS.                                              AND         ONLY                  WH~N          iT       SAYS

:I. .)   FUR 'I' H 1:': R            0 () WN        Y () U         (T   r: '['        'I' 0        M fi; S U 'T' H fi: LI 0 MAO N                        'T' H ft~       '}' H I R [)


24       L,INE:.

),5      Q.              A N U 'T' H A '1'             CAN              R 1<;         - -
                                        G.    schepers                -     Direct.                            j   .i 5



  1   A.        'T' HAT C 0 U l.JJ B 8        CON Ii' 0 U N D T NG F ACT 0 R FOR                          ANY 0 N I'~

  2   SEA R CHI NG D EAT H C 1:'; R 'r I FIe A 'r E S .                       THAT COUI,O BE MISSED.

      Q.        IN ADDITION,                 DOCTOR,                WHEN YOU'RE DOING

  4   HIS TOR I CAL STU n I F.:: S            'J' H A 'T'    G ()    B AC K    MAN Y YEA R S,                WHAT WAS

  5   THE ABIIJI'fY                      WIH,L,             YOU AIJRF.::ADY MENT.I ONED TO US

  6   YOU     SAW MESOTHELIOMA                      TN       lQ55.            IS    THA'r CORREC'r?

  7   A.        YES.

  8   Q.        AND WHEN WAS                 IT BY YOUR EXPERIENCE THAT MOST

  9   DOCTORS         IN THE UNITED STATES OR                                  IN CANADA WERE AWARE

10    OF MESOTHELIOMA AS                      A SEPARATE DISEASE OF THE                                        PLEURA

11    AND THE         PERITONEUM?

12    A.        WELL,       CERTAIN TYPES                      OF DOCTORS                  WHO ARE

13    SPECIALISTS              IN CERTAIN AREA                        KNEW         BEFORE ALL DOCTORS

14    IN THE UNITED                STATES          KNEW             IT.       THE FIRS'l' CASE

15    PUBLISHED HERE                   IN THE UNITED                      ~TATES           WAS          IN 1942 AND

16    NO'T' RF.::ALLY UNITED STATES,                                IT WAS         CANADA.               AND THEN

17    THERE WERE REFERENCES TO CASES                                          THAT APPEARED

18    INDIRECTLY            BUT NOT CLEARLY STATED.

1 9             I ' 1. 1., SAY G ENE R A L R E COG N I 'I' ION 0                     fi'     "f' H r~   DIS E A S E

20    CAME AROUND 1960.                       IT'S           AS      A MAJOR         PROBLEM.

21    Q.        AND,      DOCTOR,            I'D LIKE YOU TO                                       [    DIDN' 'r HAVE

22    TIME TO FINISH THIS.                            I'D           LIKE YOU TO REFER

23    S P E C I F I C A II I. Y l' 0   THE GAR D N r~ R STU DY,                      I fi'     YOU       CO lJ L D •

24    A.        YES.

25    Q.        SPECIFICAIII.Y,              DOC'l'OR,               r' 0     I..IKE 'ro REFER YOU '1'0
                                     (7.    Sc h   e per s        -   U ire    c   t            136


  1    THE CHART WHICH               APP~ARS            ON       PAG~     5,       TABLE   FIV~.


  2    A.

  .3   Q.     YES,       SIR.

  4                      THE: COURT:               LABELED TABLE FIVE?

 5                       MR.    MC CONNELL:                      YES,     IT       IS,   YOUR HONOR.

  6    BY MR.      MC CONNELL:

  7    Q.     CAN YOU Tr-;LL TH E IJAD I E S AND GENTLEMEN OF ,]'H E

  8    JURY HOW MANY OF                THE DEA'I'H CERTIFICATES WERE

  9    IDENTIFIED         IN THAT STUDY                    IN GARDNER WITH                 NO MORE

10     SPECIFIC DESIGNATION THAN RESPIRATORY DISEASES?

1:1    A•     66 OF HIS CASES WERE JUST LISTED AS RESPIRATORY

1?     DISEASES.          ARE WE LOOKING AT THE                               SAME CHART?

13     Q.     GARDNER          STUDY ON TABLE FIVE,                            YES,      SIR.   66 WAS

14     THE OBSERVED            FOR     WHAT'S           DESIGNATED SIMPLY

15     RESPIRATORY DISEASES?

16     A.     YES.        WELL,        HE HAS           IT AS         66.

17     Q.     AND CAN YOU TELL ME                          IF THERE            IS A DESIGNATION

18            THAT WAS UP              IN THE TOP                 PORTION FOR MEN,

19     CORRF~crr?


20     A.     YES.

21     Q.     AND HOW MANY                 FOR     WOMEN?

22     A.     I'M JUST WONDERING.                               COULD YOU LOOK AT THIS ONE

23     AND   SEE    IF    WE IRE IJOOKING A'T' 'rHE SAME THJNG?

24     Q.     IS    IT DAJ<KEfd                  '1' A B IJ E    F I VE   I   NTH EGA RON E R

25     S'f'UDY.
                                 G.   :->chf!pf!rs      -    Direct                             137


 1                     THE COUR'l':       SE;E    IF'       YOU'RE I.OOKING A']' THE

 2    SAME ONE.

 3                                                   YES.

 4    BY MR.      MC CONNELL:

      Q.       THE NUMBER YOU GAVE ME WAS                       FOR THE MEN?

 6    A.        r GOT IT.        YOUR QUF.S')'lON WAS                  HOW MANY

 7    RESPIRATORY DISEASES               FOR     WOMEN?

 [{   Q.       YES.

 9    A.       'rHAT WAS      r;IGHT.

10    Q.       AND    I'D LIKE TO REFER              YOU,       lEo'     [     COULD,          TO THE

11    ABSTRACT IN THE BEGINNING.

12             CAN YOU TELL THE LADIES AND GENTLEMEN OF THE

13    JURY WHAT DR.           GARDNER     INDICATED WITH REGARD TO THE

14    DURATIONS OF EXPOSURE AND CONCENTRATION OF ASBESTOS

15    EXPOSURE?

16                     MR.    S C HAC Wl'MAN :       OBJECTION,                     HEARSAY.

17                     THE COURT:         I'I"S WHAT?

18                     MR.    SCHACH'I'MAN:          OBJECTION,                     HEARSAY.

19    THERE'S NO FOUNDATION THAT THIS DOCTOR HAS RELIED

20    UPON     IN ANY WAY.

21                     THE COURT:         WELL,         ARE THESE STUDIES THAT

22    HAVE BEEN THE SUBJECT OF THE EXAMINATION BOTH ON

23    DI   R R C '1' A S WELl. ASON ir H E D fi; }:o' ENS E E X AMIN AT ION ?                      WILL

24    THESE STUDIES COME OUT,                  GENTLEMAN?

25                      MR.    SCHACHTMAN:              I   'r H 1 N K       I 'P    WI IdJ,   B lJ T
                                G.    schepers -       nirec~                  1.38



 1   WI 'I' H 'I' H E PRO PER   F' 0 UN DAT ION,    YES.

 2                   MR.    Me CONNELlJ:           INDICATION WAS THAT

 3   DEFENSE EXPERT RELIED UPON                    TH~SE       STUDIES.

 4                   'rHE COURT:         WELl"      THE OBJEC'l'ION IS ON THF;

 5   BASIS OF HEARSAY INASMUCH AS THEY'RE BEING USED AND

 6   HAVE BEEN USED UP UNTIL THE PRESENT TIME CERTAINLY

 7   WITHOUT ANY OBJECTION AS TO BEING HEARSAY.                              T ' tvJ

 8   GOING TO PERMIT THE EXAMINATION.

 9                   MR.    Me CONNELb:            I ' L IJ M0 V EON,     YOU RHO NOR.

10   BY MR.      MC CONNELL:

11   Q.      DOCTOR,       DO THE STUDIES THAT I                 MENTIONED     W~RE


12   MARKED AS DEFENSE EXHIB[TS,                    AND    I   ASKED YOU TO

13   REVIEW TODAY,          DO THEY      IN ANY WAY PROVE THAT

14   CHRYSOTILE CAN NEVER CAUSE MESOTHELIOMA?

15   A.      THEY NEVER COUN'l'?             'PHEY III STED ONF; OF THE

16   RESULTS OF EXPOSURE TO CHRYSOTILE.                           THERE'S A COLUMN

17   THERE AT THE END.

18   Q.      DOCTOR,       DO YOU AGREE WITH THE                 STAT~MENT     THAT

19   CHRYSOTILE RARELY CAUSES PERITONEAL MESOTHELIOMA?

20   A.      I   AGREE WITH THAT.

21   Q.     DO YOU AGREE WITH THE STATEMENT THAT CHRYSOTILE

22   ASBESTOS NEVER CAUSES               PERfTONEAL MESOTHELIOMA?

23   A.     NO,    THAT     [ DfSAGREE WITH.

24   Q.     AND,     DOCTOR,         WHEN WE TALK ABOUT CHRYSOTILE

25   EXPOSURE,       THE TYPE OF CHRYSOTILE THAT CUMES                       FROM THE
                               G.    Schepers       -    Direct             1.39



 1    CANADIAN MINES,          IS THAT SIMPLY             CHRYSOT[L~     FIBER OR

 2    IS THAT A MIXTURE OF              ITEMS THAT YOU'VE TESTIFIED TO

 .3   EARLIER?

 4    A.   IT'S ALWAYS THE PRODUCT.                       MIXTURE OF ALL THESE

 5    COMPONENT ELEMENTS.

 6    Q.   AND ARE THE COMPONENT ELEMENTS                          -- ARE ANY OF

 7    THE COMPONENTS ELEMENTS ABLE TO CAUSE MESOTHELIOMA?

 8    A.   NO,    THEY'RE       ']'00   IJARGE    'I'D   DO THAT.     'l'HE FIBERS

 9    HAVE TO BREAK DOWN FIRST IN THE BODY TISSUE AND THEN

10    AFTER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME THE                      [NDIVIDUAL FIBERS

11    BECOME AVAILABLE TO THE TISSUES AND SIMULATE

12    MESOTHELIOMA.

13    Q.   BUT IT IS       POSSIBLE,         AS     I    UNDERSTOOD YOUR

14    EARLIER TESTIMONY,             FOR TREMOLITE TO CAUSE

J 5   MESOTHEldOMA,       [S    IT NOT?

16    A.   YES.

17    Q.   AND,    DOCTOR,          DO YOU AGREE THAT CHRYSOTILE NEVER

18    HAS CAUSED PERITONEAL MESOTHELIOMA?

19    A.   NO.     I   T H INK '[' HER EAR E EN 0 UGH ART I C L EST 0         S HOW

20    IT HAS.

21    Q.   DOCTOR,       IS SAYING A CARCINOGEN IS A LOW ORDER

22    OF RISK    IN RELATIONSHIP TO A [JIFFERENT CARCINOGEN

21    THE SAME AS SAYING IT PRESENTS NO RISK?

24    A.   NO,    SIR.     LOW RISK MEANS THAT COMPARED TO OTHER

25    THINGS    WITH   A HIGH        RISK   TT    IS LOW.         LIKfi; SAYING A
                                   G.    schepers          -    Direc~             140


 1   SMAI,L.     PERSON IS COMPARED WITH OTHER PEOPLE NOT AS

 2   LARGE AS THEY ARE.                    THAT DOESN'T MEAN HE DOESN'T

 3   EXIST.

 4   Q.        DOCTOR,        DOES      SAYING SOMETHING               IS ON A LOW ORDER

 5   OF MAGNITUDE THE SAME THING AS                              SAYING SOMETHING HAS

 6   NO ORDER          OF MAGNITUDE?

 7   A.        NO.      YOU CAN CROSS OUT THE NO ORDER.

 8   Q.        DOCTOR,        DO YOU HAVE A REASONABLE                           DO YOU

 9   HAVE               HOLD AN OPINION TO A REASONABLE DEGREE OF

10   MEDICAL CERTAINTY AS TO WHETHER THE MESOTHELIOMA IN

11   RONALD HILL HAl) AS A SUBSTANTIAL CONTRIBUTING FACTOR

12   THE CHRYSOTILE OR COMPONENTS OF THE CHRYSOTILE TO

13   WHICH HE WAS             EXPOSED AT THE OWENS CORNING PLANT?

14   A.        YES,     SIR.       I    BELIEVE HE DID.

15                      MR.    MC CONNELL:             THANK YOlJ,        SIR.

lh                      THE COURT:             HAVE    YOU COMPLETED YOUR

17                                                     I       HAVE,   YOUR HONOR.

18                      THE COURT:             YOU MAY PROCEED WITH YOUR

19   CROSS EXAMINATION.

20

21   CROSS EXAMINATION

2?   BY MR.       SCHACTMAN:

     Q.        DR.     SCHEPERS,         MY NAME       IS NATHAN SCHACTMAN.               1

24   HAVE      SOME QUES'l'IONS if'OR               YOU.


25             I,WI'   ME   S'J' ART    OFF'   BY    ASKTNG,       YOU'RE 76     YEARS
                                      G.        Scheppr!=>    -   Crn!';!';              141


  1    OLD?

  2    A.       76,     YES.

  3    Q.       AM    T CORRECT THAT YOU HAVE                        A HEARING

  4    IMPAIRMENT?

  5    A.       YES,      SIR.

  6    Q.       DO YOU READ               I.   IPS 'fO SOME EXT Jo::WI' ?

  7    A.            H AV E 'I' 0    G E'I' USE D TOY 0 U R V 0 ICE.

  8    Q.       ALt. RIGHT.               IF'    J   TURN AROUND TO GE'I' SOMli;          PAPF;RS

  9    OR   I   ASK A QUESTION WHILE                        J'M WALKING AWAY           FROM YOU,

10     WOULD YOU          PLEASE FEEL FREK TO ASK ME TO REPEAT THE

11     QUESTION?

1;/,   A.       YES,      SIR.

13                        THE COURT:                 IF YOU DON'T HEAR           IT.

14     Q.       IF YOU DON'T HEAR                     IT.

15     A.       YES,      SIR.

16     Q.       YOU ARE NOW RETIRED FROM THE VETERANS

17     ADMINISTRATION?

18     A.       RTGWr.

19     Q.       AND WHEN            WAS        THE FIRST TIME THAT YOU PUBLISHED

20     AN ARTICLE ON ASBESTOS?

21     A•       I    THINK THAT WOULD                  HAVE BEEN         IN   1955.

22     Q.       WAS     THA'r 'rHR S'I'UDY ON THE KAYIJO                      PRODUCT 'I'HAT

23     YOU'VE DESCRTBED BEFORE?

24     A.       YES.

25     Q.       AND WHAT WAS THR                     LAST ARTICLE THAT YOU WROTE ON
                                G.    Sch~per~            -   Crn~s                       142



 1   ASBES'f'OS?

 2   A.      A MONTH AGO.

 3   Q.      AND WHERE WAS THAT PUBLISHED?

 4   A.      1T   's BET NG PUB I,        1 S H F. 0    BY THE NEW YO R K A CAD EM Y 0 F

 5   SCIENCE.           IT WIld, APPEAR                IN ABOUT THREE MONTHS 'rIME.

 6   Q.      WHAT WAS THAT ON?

 7   A.      HMM?

 8   Q.      WHAT WAS T H A']'        0   N?

 9   A.      THAT       IS ON THE         PROGRAM OF THE VETERANS

10   ADMINISTRATION FOR                           CALLED ABATEMEN,]' PROGRAM OF

11   THE VETERANS ADMINISTRATION.

12   Q.      SO THAT'S NOT YET                  PUBLISHl'~D,             CORRECT?

13   A.      NO.

14   Q.      I'M SORRY?

15   A.      JT WILL COME THREE MONTHS LATER.

16   Q.      DID YOU PUBLISH ANYTHING BETWEEN lQ80 AND                                      1990S

17   ON ASBESTOS?

18   A.      NO 'I' E X ACT L Y () N ri' H E      SUB ,1 E C rr   () F    A   S B EST 0 SIN THE

19   OPEN LITERATURE.                THERE MAY BE REFERENCES TO A PAPER

20   I    WROTE    IN    '82 ON SUBMICRON AMORPHOUS                             SfLICA.     ALL

21   THE DOCUMENTS          I   SET UP WERE ALL FOR THE VETERANS

22   ADMINISTRATION.              SO THEY'RE              INTERNAL TO THE V.A.

23   Q.      THE PRIMARY FOCUS OF THE ARTICLE ON SILICA

24   THOUGH WAS ON SILICA AND NOT ON SILICATES?

25   A.      RIGHT.
                                 G.       Schepers           -      Cross                 1 4.1



  1   Q.     THAT THEy'RE CHEMICALLY DIF¥ERENT,                                    RIGHT?

  2   A.     RIGHT.

  3   Q.     HAVE YOU        EVER         PUBLISHED ANYTHING ON HOW

  4   ASBESTOS      FIBERS MIGRATE TO THE PLEURA?

  5   A.     1   DON' T R E CAL L T HA'I'           J' V E          DON E T HAT,    NO.

  6   Q.     WHAT IS AN          EPIDEMIOLOGIC STUDY                         IN YOUR VIEW?

  7   HOW MAN Y P EO P L E HA VET 0              B .Eo:    IJ 0 0   KED AT   0   RHO W MAN Y

  8   DE AT H SAN A L Y 7. ED    to' 0   R ITT 0          B E AN R P IDE MI () 1. 0 GTe     S l' U DY ?

  9   A.     1   THINK YOU NEED A MINIMUM OF NINE CASES;

10    OTHERWISE,       YOU CAN'T REALLY MAKE MATHEMATICS OUT OF

11    I'r.   USUALLY EPIDEMIOLOGICAL STUDIES HAVE LARGER

12    GROUPS OF      PEOPLE.

13    Q.     HA V E YOU      E: V E R     PUB I., ISH F. DAN E P 1 D EM I 0 LOG I CST UD Y

14    ON PEOPLE EXPOSED TO CHRYSOTILE?

15    A.     NO.

16    Q.     HAVE YOU EVER                PUBLISHED AN EPIDEMIOLOGIC STUDY

17    ON PEOPLE EXPOSED TO AMOSITE?

18    A.     NO.

19    Q.     SAME QUESTION WTTH RESPECT TO CROCIDOLITE?

20    A.     RIGHT.

2:1   Q.     YOU HAVE NOT                PUBLISHED ANYTHING?

22    A.     RIGHT.

23    Q.     WE'VE USED THE MINERAL NAMES                               FOR SOME OF THESE

24    SUASTANCES,       BUT YOU            RECOGNIZE THAT THI:'; MINERAI.

25    CROCIDOLITE       IS      SOMETIMES           REFERRED TO AS                 BLUE
                                 G.    Schepers   -   Cross                  144


 1   ASBESTOS?

 2   A.    YES   t    I 'I' CAN B E; C A1J 1., EDT HAT .

 3   Q.    AMOSITE IS            SOMETIMES REFERRED TO AS                BROWN

 4   ASBES'TOS?

 5   A•    YES.

 6   Q.    CHRYSOTILE IS               SOMETIMES REFERRED TO AS WHITE

 7   ASBES'I'OS?

 8   A.    YES.

 9   Q.    AND THE WORD               "AMOSITE"   COMES      FROM

10   AN ABBREVIATION OF ASBESTOS MINES OF SOUTH AFRICA?

11   A •   YES.

12   Q.    DOCTOR      t   DO YOU HAVE YOUR OWN El,ECTRON

13   MICROSCOPE?

14   A.    NOt       NOT NOW     t    NO.   TOO EXPENSIVE.

15   Q.    DID YOU EVER HAVE

16   A•    I   HAD COMPANY MICROSCOPE.                     NEVER    OWNED ONg

17   MYSELF.         THEY COST HALF MILLION DOLLARS.

18   Q.    DO YOU HAVE AN ELECTRUN                           YOU HAVE A HUME        IN

19   WEST VIRGINIA          t   CORRECT?

20   A.    YES.        I   HAVE       LABORATORY THERE        IN WgST VIRGINIA       t



21   NOT A HOME.

22   Q.    BUT IT          IS YOUR      PERSONAL LABORATORY          t   CORRECT?

23   A.    YES.

24   Q.    DO YOU HAVE OR HAVE                YOU EVER HAD AN ELECTRON

25   MICROSCOPE THERE?
                                        G.     SchApers          -       Cross                        145


 1    A.       I    WILd,      F; VI:': NT U A I.JJ Y H A VEON E,           B U r['     T   DON I T H A V E I'r

 2    yg'r.

 3    Q.       DOCTOR,           HAVE         YOU    EVER       PUBLISHED              IN 'rHE MEDICAL.

 4    LITERATURE AN               ARTICLE ON                A NUMBER OF MINERAL FIBERS

 5    THAT CAN           BE REMOVED             FROM HUMAN TISSUES                          AND COUNTED

 6    BY ELECTRON MICROSCOPY?

 7    A.       DON'T THINK SO.                       T DON'T THINK SO.

 8    Q.       AM    I       CORRECT THAT YOU ARE NOT                             ELIG1BLE TO

 9    PRACTICE           IN WASHINGTON,                   D.C.?

10    A.       NO,       I    DON'T          PRACTICE THERE.                  I       DON I 'r          I'M

11    NOT     I,ICENSED TO              PRACTICk AND                 I   DON'T         HAVE AN OFFICE.

12    11M     NOT    SET UP         TO        PRACTICE.

1.1   Q.       YOU ARE NOT BOARD CERTIFIED                                  IN CARDIOLOGY?

14    A.       NO.

15    Q.       AND       AM I     CORRECT YOU'RE NOT                        BOARD CERTIFIED                 IN

16    THE     SUBSPECIALTY OF                   PULMONARY DISEASES?

17    A.       NO.

18    Q.       11M       NOT CORRECT?

19    A.       YOU'RE CORRECT.

20    Q.       AND YOU ARE NOT                      BOARD CERTIFIED                    IN THE UNITED

21    S TAT E SIN THE             FIE I. D 0 F           P A 'r H0 LOG Y teo R R E C T '?

22    A.      'r HAT     I   S COR R E CT.           I    HAVE       SOUTH        AFRICAN

23    CERTIFICATIONS.

24    Q.       DO YOU S T         [l,   I.    PAY YOU R DUE S TOT H fo:                     BOA R D

25    COLLEGE        IN       SOUTH          AFRICA?
                                                                       146


 1   A.      I   PERMANENTIZED AT A CERTAIN POINT.                 YOU SEND

 2   SO MANY DOLLARS YOU DON'T NEED TO PAY ANNUALLY,                         SO

 3   IT'S NOW PERMANENT.

 4   Q.      DR.    SCHEPERS,           YOUR OPINIONS HAVE CHANGED OVER

 5   TIME.       IS THAT CORRECT?

 6   A.      1   HAVE BEEN --

 7   Q.      YOUR OPINIONS HAVE CHANGED OVER TIME.                    IS THA'r

 8   CORRECT?

 9   A.      THEY MUST IF NEW EVIDENCE COMES ALONG.                    THEN I

10   MUST CHANGE MY OPINIONS.

11   Q.      DO YOU KNOW GENE LOCKS?

12   A.      MR.    G ENE   IJ 0   C KS ?

13   Q.      YES.

14   A.      YES.        HE'S A PARTNER OF MR.          MC CONNELL.

15   Q.      IN FACT,       HE'S MR.        MC CONNELL'S BOSS.      IS 'J'HA'f

16   RIGHT?

17   A.      THAT    I   DON'T KNOW.          YOU MUST ASK MR.

18   MC CONNELL.

19                   MR.    MC CONNEld,:        THAT IS CORRECT,      YOUR

20   HONOR.        I'M NOT A PARTNER WITH THE             FIRM.

21   BY MR.      SCHACHTMAN:

22   Q.      AND YOU FIRST MET MR.              LOCKS   IN 197A?

23   A.      SOMEWHERE AROUND THERE.

24   Q.      '78    OR    '79?

25   A.      YES.
                                G.    SChAperS    -    ~ross                      J 47


  1    Q.     AND    YOU F'fRS'I' BEGAN CONSUl,'rJNG           j4'OR       MR.   IJOCKS       TN


  :2   CON NEe T ION WI 'r H I. AWSUI T S ABO U'I' T HAT       'P   I MF: ?

  3    A.     YES.

  4    Q.     DID YOU SERVE                  CAN YOU GIVE US               AN IDEA OF

  5    HOW MANY TIMES YOU             HAVE WRITTEN REPORTS                 FOR MR.

  6    LOCKS?

  7    A.     OVER THE      PAS'T 12 YEARS,           11 YEARS,        I      THINK AT

  8    LEAST 50 CASES THAT I'VE DONE FOR HIM.

  9    Q.    HOW MANY TIMES            HAVE YOU TESTIFIED FOR MR.

10     LOCKS?

11     A.     IN THE TEN YEARS           I   WOULD SAY PROBABLY AVERAGE

12     ABOUT TEN TIMES.

1 .3   Q.    DOCTOR,       AM   I    CORRECT THAT UP UNTIL ABOUT J.979

14     YOU HAD NOT SEEN A CASE OF DISABLING ASBESTOSIS                                   FROM

15     JUST CHRYSOTILE EXPOSURE?

16     A.    THAT'S CORRECT.

17     Q.    AND YOU HAD SEEN WORKERS WHO WERE EXPOSED TO

18     REALLY NOTHING BUT CHRYSOTILE IN THE CANADIAN

19     SETTING?

20     A.    EXPOSED TO CHRYSOTILE BUT AIJSO EXPOSED TO OTHER

21     THINGS,      SO I   COULD NEVER FIND A CASE OF PURE

22     CHRYSOTILE EXPOSURE.              KEPT ON LOOKING,              HUT THEY ALL

23     HAD OTHER THINGS TO WHICH THEY WERE EXPUSED.

24     Q.    DID CHRYSOTILE FIBERS               FORM ASBESTOS                BODIES     IN

25     HUMAN LUNG TISSUE?
                               G.   Schepers     -   Cross              148


 1   A.      DO CHRYSOTILE --

 2   Q.            FIBERS     FORM ASBESTOS BODIES             IN HUMAN LUNG

 3   TISSUFn

 4   A.      THEY DO IN THE FIRST TWO YEARS OF EXPOSURE AND

 5   THEN ASBESTOS BODIES DISAPPEAR BECAUSE THE FIBERS

 6   BREAK UP AND THEN 20 YEARS LATER THEY FORM A NEW

 7   TYPE OF ASBESTOS BODY WHICH                 DOESN'T LOOK       LIKE THE

 8   STANDARD TYPICAL ASBESTOS BODY.                     IT'S VERY SMALL.

 9   IT HAS NO IRON IN IT.

10   Q.      DR.     SCHEPERS,      YOUR ORIGINAL EXPERIENCE IN SOUTH

11   AFRICA HAD BEEN PRIMARILY WITH AMOSITE AND

12   CROCIDOLITE.           IS 'J'HA'r CORRECT?

13   A.      RIGHT.

14   Q.      AND THAT IS BECAUSE CHRYSOTILE DEPOSITS                    IN

15   SOUTH AFRICA ARE RELATIVELY LIMITED.                       IS THAT RIGWr?

16   A.      r    DON'T KNOW WHETHER THEY'RE LIMITED,                 BUT THE

17   REAL REASON WAS THAT THE INDUSTRY ONLY STARTED                          AFT~R


18   WORLD WAR II.           IT CAM E F UId, YIN TOO PER A'}' TON BY         1   949

19   AND I       LEFT FOUR YEARS LATER.

20   Q.      I THINK AT ONE POINT YOU GAVE US AN ESTIMATE

21   THAT 95 PERCENT OF THE ASBESTOS                    USED IN THE UN1TED

22   STATES WAS CHRYSOTILE.                DO YOU RECALL GIVING THAT

23   ESTIMATE?

24   A.      I    PRO BA B 1., Y HAV E S A I D T HAT,   YES.

25   Q.      AND THAT ESTIMATE REALLY APPLIES MORE TO THE
                               G.    Scheper~      -    Cro~s                      149


 1    P8RTOD OF' 'rIME IN rrHF.           '60s AND       '70S THAN      I'r DOES

 2    BACK IN THE          '208 AND THF.      '308      BEFOR~    THE CHRYSUTTLK

 3    MINES    IN CANADA AND SOUTH AFRICA WERE UP TO FULL

 4    COMMERCIAL STEAM.              IS THA'l' CORRECT?

 5    A.      YES.     IN THE 1940s THERE WAS               A FAIR AMOUNT OF

 6    AMOSITE AND CROCIDOLITE USED DURING THF. WAR YEARS

 7    FOR MILITARY PURPOSES AND SO THE RATIO OF CHRYSOTILE

 8    UTILIZATION IS          PROBABLY MORE LIKE 80 OR 85 PERCENT.

 9    I'M NOT SUR E 0 F' T HAT E X AC 'I' FIG U RES,             BUT I TWA S LOW E R

10    THAN    IT IS TODAY BECAUSE ALL CHRYSOTILE                                   ALL

11    AM 0 SIT E AND C ROC I DOL I T E HAV F.; BEE N BAN NED            1"   ROM    '1' HE


12    UN I TED S '1' ATE S,   SOl 'r 's   PRO B AB L Y U P rr 0    95   PER C EN T

13    NOW.

14    Q.      DR.    SCHEPERS,       YOU MENTIONED SOME OF THE

15    COMPANIES THAT YOU HAD WORKED FOR OR BEEN A

16    CONSUJ,'I'AWf TO.        ON~    OF THE COMPANIES THAT YOU

17    CONSUl,TED WITH WAS OWENS COR.NING FTBERGI,A8.                               IS THAT

:18   CORRECT?

19    A.      YES.

20    Q.      AND THA'I' WAS        SPECIFJCALLY ON THE SUBJECT OF

21    ASBESTOS.        IS THAT       CORR}o~crr?


22    A.      NO.    OWENS CORNING                     IS THAT THE NAME YOU

23    MENTIONED?

24    Q.      'l'HAT T S

25    A.      MY    STUDY FOR OWENS CORNING WAS CONCERNING
                             G.   Schepers      -   Cross                150


 1   FIBERGLASS AND FIBERGLASS                PLASTIC.      THEY HAD

 2   PRODUCED A PRODUCT THAT WAS A MIXTURE OF GLASS

 3   FIBERS AND POLYMERIC PLASTIC AND THEY WERE MAKING

 4   MOTORBOATS OUT OF IT AND THE CORVETTE AUTOMOBILE.

 5   AND   I       DID THE RESEARCH FOR THEM ON THE BIOLOGICAL

 6   PROPERTIES OF THAT PRODUCT WHEN IT WAS                      INHALED INTO

 7   ANIMAL, LUNGS.

 8   Q.        WASN'T THERE A CONSULTATION YOU GAVE TO OWENS

 9   CORNING FIBERGLAS WITH RESPECT TO THE USE OF

10   ASBESTOS         IN THAT FIBERGLASS?

11   A.        YES.    AT ONE POINT OWENS CORNING ASKED ME TO

12   CONDUCT A STUDY ON FIBERGLASS                  PLASTIC WJTH

13   CHRYSOTILE ASBESTOS SUBSTITUTING FOR THE GLASS

14   FIBERS AND I        REFUSED TO DO SO AND EXPLAINED TO THEM

15   THAT THE REASON WHY           I   REFUSED TO DO SO IS                 WAS

16   THAT IN MY OPINION THAT SCIENTIFIC INQUIRY HAD

17   ALREADY BEEN COMPLETED IN THE FORM OF THE KAYLO

18   STUDY BECAUSE KAYLO WAS CHRYSOTILE MIXED WITH GLASS-

19   LIKE MATERIAL SIMILAR TO PLASTIC AND LUNG TOOK                        IT

20   APART,        THREW AWAY THE GLASS MATERIAL,            KEPT THE

21   ASBESTOS AND ANIMALS GOT ASBESTOSIS.

22             I   TOLD THEM THAT THE PLASTIC WOULD HAVE SHOWN

23   THAT THE LUNG HANDLES PLASTIC THE SAME WAY WHEN IT'S

24   MIXED WITH GLASS.            IT RETAINS THE GLASS FIBERS BUT

25   REJECTS THE PLASTIC.              AND,   THEREFORE,     I   COULD
                              G.   Schepers   -   Cross                151


 1   PREDICT FOR 'I'HE;M 'rHAT IF' THEY SUBS'rTTUTED ASBF.:S'I'OS

 ?   THEN   THft~Y   WOUTJD Ca:T ASBES,['OS I S      FROM IT.

 3   Q.     DID YOU MENTION ANYTHING '1'0 THgM ABOUT CANCER?

 4   A.     HMM?

 5   Q.     DID YOU MENTION ANYTHING TO THEM ABOUT CANCER?

 6   A.     WELL,     YES.     I   WENT OVER TO 'l'HETR RF:SEARCH

 7   F AelL I TIE S A'II           RESEARCH CENTER SOUTH OF TOLEDO,

 8   OHIO AND GAVE AN ALL DAY LONG SPEECH TO 22 OF THEIR

 9   EXECUTIVES ON THE DANGER OF CANCER AND REASON WHY

10   THEY SHOULD STAY AWAY FROM USING ASBESTOS                   IN THEIR

11   PRODUCTS.

12   Q.     IN THE FIBERGLASS?

13   A.     YES.

14   Q.     NOW,     THE WORD      "NEOPLASIA"       IS A TECHNICAL 'rERM

15   THAT INCLUDES CANCERS,             CORRF.:CT?

16   A.     YES,     SIR.

17   Q.     YOU TOLD US THAT YOU HAD DONE SOME WORK FOR

18   OWENS-ILLINOIS WHICH OWNED THE KAYLO FACTORY BEFORE

19   OWENS CORNING,          CORRECT?

20   A.     YES.

21   Q.     AND YOU ACTUAIJLY STUDTED THE PRODUCT KAYLO

22   WHICH MR.       RON HILL WAS WORKING TO MAKE.              IS 'I'H A 'r

23   RIGHT?

24   A.     YES.

25   Q.     WHEN
                                G.   SchRpRr~     -    Cro~s                152


 1                     MR.    MC CONNEld_,:      I'M GOING TO OBJECT,              YOUR

 2   HONOR.         HE'S     ALREADY TESTIFIED THAT HE STUDIED THE

 3   PRODUCT        IN A DIFFERENT TIME           PERIOD THAN MR.         HILL.

 4                     THE COURT:          AI.l,OW THE QUES'I'ION FIRST.             IF

 5   THE QUESTION IS OBJECTIONABLE,                     YOU'LL OBJECT AT THAT

 6   TIME.

 7                     MR.    MC CONNEL!.,:      YES,    SIR.

 8                     THE COUR'I':        WAIl]' TILL. IrHE QUES'rION' S

 9   ASKED.

10   BY MR.       SCHACHTMAN:

11   Q.       DR.    SCHEPERS,       WAS    IT YOUR UNDERSTANDING THAT

12   T HIS    KAY LOP ROD U C T      HAD 1.1 I MEA N n SAN DIN 'r H E AM 0 UN'II S

13   OF ABOUT 85           PERCENT?

14   A.       l.IME?

15   Q.       LIME AND SAND AND CLAYS                 AND OTHER KIND OF

16   MATERIALS THAT MADE UP ABOUT                     85 PERCENT OF THE

17   PRODUCT?

18   A.       I   DON'T THINK OF           IT THAT WAY MUCH THE RAW

19   MATER TAL HAD AbL SORTS OF THINGS                    IN rr HUITI   'I'Hfo~N   I'l'

20   WAS     BAKED AT 800 DRGREES 'PEMPERA'[,URE AND BECAME

21   HYDROXYCALCIUM            SILICATE.       THAT'S     AN ENTIRELY NEW

22   COMPOUND.

23   Q.       I   UNDERSTAND.         THE RAW MATERIALS THAT WENT                  INTO

24   MAKING THA'I' NEW COMPOUND               INCLUDED SAND AND         LIM"';?

25   A.       YES.
                           G.    Schepers   -   Cross          153


 1   Q.     AND THERE WAS ABOUT 15 PERCENT ASBESTOS?

 2   A.     YES.

 3   Q.     TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE,         WHEN YOU DID THE WORK FOR

 4   OWENS-ILLINOIS,       THE FIBER THAT WAS USED IN THE           PIP~


 5   COVERING WAS ALL CHRYSOTILE.               IS THAT CORRECT?

 6   A.     IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE CHRYSOTILE BECAUSE THAT'S

 7   HOW THE STUDY STARTED.            WE DISCOVERED         I'll WAS

 8   THE END OF THE STUDY THAT THE LAST BARREL THAT WAS

 9   SHIPPED TO US CONTAINED NOT CHRYSOTILE BUT AMOSITE.

10   SO ACTUALLY THE ANIMALS HAD BEEN EXPOSED TO

11   CHRYSOTILE FOR A CERTAIN PERIOD OF TIME AND THEN

12   AMOSITE.

13   Q.     SO THOSE ANIMAL EXPERIMENTS DO NOT REPRESENT

14   PURE CHRYSOTILE EXPOSURE IN THE SARANAC

15   LABORATORIES.        f.S   'liHAT RIGHT?

16   A.     YES.

17   Q.     AND WHEN YOU WROTE UP THE S'rUDY AND YOU

18   PUB~ISHED     IT IN THE MEDICAL LITERATURE IN 1955,             YOU

19   REPORTED THAT THE ANIMALS DID DEVELOP ASBESTOSIS.

20   IS THAT CORRECT?

21   A.     YES,   SIR.

     Q.     AND THOSE WERE ANIMALS THAT HAD BEEN EXPOSED

23   FOR   36   MONTHS OR SO TO LEVELS OF DUST FROM THIS

24   KAYLO AT ABOUT 115 TO 120 MILLION PARTICLES              PER

25   CUBIC FOOT?
                             G.   s~hp.pp.rs    -   Cross                             154


 1   A.    RIGHT.

 2   Q.   THAT WAS MUCH HIGHER THAN WHAT WAS THE CODE

 3   THAT YOU IDENTIFIED FOR US                IN NEW JERSEY              BACK         IN

 4   THOSE DAYS.        IS THAT CORRECT?

 5   A.    SAY ABOUT 20 TIMES HIGHER.

 6   Q.    20   TIMES HIGHER.          AND YOU DID NOT FIND ANY

 7   NEOPLASTIC CHANGE IN THOSE ANIMALS.                        IS 'PHAT RIGH'l'?

 8   A.   RIGH't'.

 9   Q.    INDEED,     YOU WROTE IN THE MEDICAL ART IN 1955 NO

10   NEOPLASTIC CHANGE COULD BE POSTULATED?

11   A.   RIGHT.

12   Q.   DOCTOR,      I    THOUGHT    I   HEARD YOU MENT10N THAT THE

13   NEW JERSEY CODE WAS ONE MILLION FOR ASBESTOS NOT

14   FIVE MILLION?

15   A.   WHAT?

16   Q.   DID I      HEAR YOU SAY THE NEW JERSEY CODE FOR

17   ASBESTOS EXPOSURE IN WORKPLACES AT THAT TIME WAS ONE

18   MILLION PARTICIJES PER CUBIC FOOT?

19   A.   NO.     THEY DIDN'T HAVE A CODE FOR ASBESTOS

20   FIBERS.    THEY HAD A CODE FOR ASBESTOS DUST AND THAT

21   CODE WAS   FIVE MILLION PARTICLES OF ASBESTOS DUST PER

22   CUBIC FOOT OF AIR.

23   Q.   AND   r[,Hfo~RE   WAS   Al,SO A CODE IN NEW JERSEY FOR

24   TOTAL DUST OF' 50 MIIJI,lON PARTTCI.,ES                Pfo~R   CUHIC FOO'I'?

25   A.   NO.     THE: Y HAl) A C () D}<; FOR NUT SAN C fi:         J ) U S 'I'   .   '['HA'r
                             G.   Schepers         -   Cross                        155


 1   WOULD    BE STREET DUST OR DUST THAT WOULD COME FROM

 2   WOOD OR SAW MATERIALS UR                  SOMETHING.         'I' HA'['   WAS    50

 3   MIL it ION PAR TIC I, ESP F. R CUB [C F 0 0 T .

 4                   MR.   MC CONNEI.. L:         YOUR    HONOR,      I'M GOING TO

 5   HAVE TO OBJECT TO RELEVENCY.

 6                   MR.   SCHACH'l'MAN:          THIS WAS ALL GONE                 INTO ON

 7   DIRECT,       YOUR HONOR.        I    WOULD HAVE PREFERRED NOT TO

 8   HAVE COVERED IT,          BUT

 9                   THE COUR'l':         IT'S    PERMISSIHLE.                IT'S CROSS

10   EXAMINATION.          I'M GOING TO PERMIT IT.

11   BY MR.    SCHACHTMAN:

12   Q.      DR.    SCHEPERS,     I THINK YOU MENTIONED THE

13   EXPERIMENTS THAT YOU DID ON BERYLLIUM,                           BERYLLIUM

14   SULFATE,      AND YOU'RE VERY             PROUD OF THOSE EXPERIMENTS,

15   ARE YOU NOT?           YOU   'T' H INK    ')' HF; Y WE R E ] MPO R TAN T

16   EXPERIMENTS?

17   A.      THEY WERE IMPORTANT IN THAT THEY SHOWED THAT

18   THERF: WAS NO COLLABORATION BE'rWEEN BERYI,LIUM AND

19   ASBESTOS AND IT SOLVED A PROBLEM FOR THE NAVY

20   BECAUSE THE NAVY                     IN 'PHE NAVY AND SUBMARINES

21   MANY OF THE PERSONS ON THE SUBMARINES HAD BEEN

22   EXPOSED TO BERYLL1UM FROM THE FLUORESCENT TUBES AND

23   FROM THE ATOMIC WEAPONS                  AND MO'l'ORS     IN THE SUBMARINF:S

24   AND SO IT WAS A BIG PROBLEM FOR THE NAVY TO DISCOVER

25   WHETHER THERE'S COLLABORATION BETWEEN CHRYSOTILE IN
                                  G.   Schepers          -    eros!':                           156


 1    THf<:    INSULATlON OF "T'HE NAVY                SHIPS AND 'I"liE BERYLLIUM

 2    IN THE ENVIRONMENT               WHER~       THE       P~R~ONS             MIGHT HAVE           BEEN

 3    EXPOSED.         SOl       T H INK T H I<;   S 'l' U DY WAS             NO cr DES I G NED 'I' 0

 4    SOLVE THAT BUT IT SO HAPPENED TO HELP THE NAVY.

 5                     MR.   SCHACHTMAN:               YOUR HONUR,                  I'D    LIK~       TO

 6    HAVE MARKED FOR             IDENTIFICATION --                       I    THINK      I'M UP       TO

 7    D-27.

 8             (APPLICATION MARKED D-27                      FOR         IDENTIFICATION)

 9    BY MR.       SCHACHTMAN:

10    Q.        DR.   SCHEPERS,         r' D LIKE TO HAND TO YOU WHAT HAS

11    BEE N MAR KED D - 2 7         FOR    I D It; N ']1 I FIe A 'I' ION.         'rHIS    IS    A COPY

12    0 FAG RAN 'I' A P P L I CAT ION YOU F I IJ E D WI 'I' H THE AM E RIC A N

13    CANCER       SOCIETY       IN 1954.

14    A.        OH,   YES.       U H HUH     ( A F It' I R MA rr I V E) .

15    Q.        AND   IN THIS GRANT APPLICATION                                      WE: CAN        LOOK

16    A'l'    I'l' TOGE'I"HER.      DID YOU        STATE THAT                  "IN TERMS OI<' THE

17    BACKGROUND AND PRESENT STATE OF THE                                      PROBLEMS THAT

18    INDUSTRIAL WORKERS               ALL OVER THE WORLD ARE CONSTANTLY

19    BEING EXPOSED TO NOCUOUS                     DUST OF VARIOUS                      KIND     SOME

20    OF WHICH ARE KNOWN AND OTHER                           SUSPECTS             ARE

21    CARCINOGENIC.              A S B EST 0 S D U S T T S A 'I' Y PIC A IJ AND

2~    CRUCIAL EXAMPLE             IN   VIEW OF THE LARGE NUMBERS OF

23    INDIVIDUAl,S        CONCERNED WTrrH 'rHE                 PROCl:!:SSING ASBESTOS

),4   PRODUCTS.          THE STRONGEST EVIDENCE FOR

25    CAR C I NO G E N I CrT Y 0 F AS B E S '110 SIS 0             fi'   FTC TAL, B R I 'I' 1 S H
                                    G.   Schepers            -   Cr()ss                               157


 1        GOVERNMENTAL STATISTICS.                     HOWEVER,                IN A'!' LEAST

 2        CERTAIN GEOGRAPHIC             LOCALITIES,                PARTICULARLY                    IN

 3        CANADA     WHERE SOME OF THE              LARGEST ASBESTOS MINES                                   ARE

 4        TO BE FOUND,          RELIABLE OBSERVATION HAVE FAILED TO

 5        DE M0 N S T RAT E A COM PAR A B I. fi;    INC REA S E              IN 'r HE; 1J U NG CAN C E R

 6        RAT E AM 0 NGIN D U S T RIA 1, W R K E R SEX P 0 S E; D
                                          0                                           'P 0    A S B E S '1' 0 S

 7        DUST.      PERHAPS       TH~SE    DIFFERENCES                     CAN BE ACCOUNTED

 8        FOR BY THE          FACT THAT IN ENGLAND THE CHKYSOTILE                                          IS

 9        MORE    EXTENSIVELy       lI
                                                 EXCUSE          ME.           11   IN fi;NGLAND 'rHf!:

1 0 M A I N AS B E S 'r 0 S PRO lJ (j C T HAN D LED              J S        A F RIC AN        C ROC I DOL I       'f E


11        AND AMOSITE         WH~;REAS     CHRYSOTILE               IS MORE EXTENSIVELY

12        PRODUCED       IN CANADA.         THE     fo' 0   R MER      ~r   Y PES     0 E'    A S B E S '1' 0 S

13       ARE,     HOWEVER,       ALSO USED EXTENSIVELY                              IN VARIOUS

14       T E: XT I I, E AND    IN D US ']' R I ALP ROC E SSE SIN THE                         UN I TED

15        STATES.II

16                THAT WAS       WHAT YOU WROTE,                 CORRECT?

17       A.       YES,    SIR.

18       Q.       TN THE APPENDIX YOU               DESCRIBI:i;D THE                    IISIGNIFICANCE

19       IN CANCER RESEARCH AND RELATION OF ANTICIPATED

20       RES U L T S TO THE M0 REG ENE R ALP ROB iJ EM SIN THE F 11': 1. D .                                      11




21       IS THAT RIGHT?

22       A.       YES.

23       Q.       AND YOU WROTE          liTHE     PRIMARY PURPOSE OF THIS

24       PROPOSED EXPERIMENT IS TO PROBE THE VERY VEXED

25       QUE S T ION 0 F THE R E LA T ION S HIP 0 F' AS B E S '1' 0 S D US'!'
                                       G.   Schepers            -      Cross

~.   ~~




                 INHALATION TO THE INCREASING DISCOVERY OF LUNG

            2    CANCER    TN MAN.     SHOULD A SIGNIFICANT STATISTICAL

            J    RESULT BE OBTAINED FROM THIS STUDY ON RODENTS,

            4    COMBINED WITH THE RESULTS OF PREVIOUS ANIMAL STUDfKS

            5    ON ASBESTOS CONDUCTED BY THE SARANAC LABORATORY,                                      NEW

            6    EVIDENCE EITHER FOR OR AGAINST THE ALLEGED ROLE OF

            7    ASBESTOS     IN CAUSING HUMAN lJUNG CANCER WOULD BE

            8    PRODUCED."

            9          THAT'S WHAT YOU WROTE?

          10     A.    YES,   SIR.

          "1 1   Q.    AND LATER ON         IN THE SAME PAGE,                       YOU NOTED THAT

          12     "ASBESTOS     IS USED EXTENSIVELY Al.L. OVER 'PHE CIVILIZED

          1.3    WORLD."

          14           IS THAT RIGH']'?

          15     A.    YES,   SIR.

          16     Q •   YOU A L SOW R 0 'r E T HAT         "E V E N C E R T A INC I GAR E T '1' E

          17     FILTERS MADE FROM ASBESTOS TO SHIELD                                OF~   THE ALLEGED

          18     CARCINOGENS      IN TOBACCO TARS."

          19     A.    YES,   SIR.

          20     Q.    DO YOU HAVE ANY PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT

          21     CIGARETTE FILTERS CONTAINED ASBESTOS?

          22                  MR.    MC CONNEld,:            I'M GOING TO OBJECT,                     YOUR

          23     HONOR.     MAY WEB E HE A R D A'J' SID E BAR?

          24                  THE COURT:        I    'I'H I NK         YOUR OB,} ECT ION CAN BE

          25     STATEO    VERY   SIMPLY.     W H A 'J'    TS       '1' H }<;   BAS I S O i'~ YOU R
                                              G.          Schepers            -    Cross                    159


  1    OBJECTION.

  2                            MR.      MC        CONNELL:                   YES,       SIR.     THERE'S NOT A

  ]    SINGLE THING                  IN THERE THAT COUNSEL READ TO HIM

  4    THAT'S           ANY CONTRADICTION.

  5                            THE COURT:                     WH A'T'        I S 'I' H r~ REI. E V F: NC Y WI')' H

  6    REGARD TO THE                    .fTEM THAT'S                    REFERRED TO,              COUNSEL?

  7    WHERE           IS THAT RELEVANT TO THE SITUATION AND AREN'T

  8    WE C;Fi;'l'TING           INTO AN                  lSSUE 'rHAT              IS    SO COLI,ATERAL

  9    THAT'S GOING TO GET                                 INTO AN AREA THAT MlGHT TEND TO

10     BI':: SO        FAR     AFIEL,D ,]'HAT                 I'P WOULD JUST BE CONFUSING?

11                             MR.      SCHACH'l'MAN:                        DR.    SCHEPERS DESCRIBED

12     HIS   VIEWS AND HOW THEY CHANGED OVER TIME.

13                             THE COUR'r:                    YOU'VE READ THE                    VIEWS.

14                             MR.      SCHACHTMAN:                          AND

15                             THE COUR'r:                    YOU'VE READ THE VI gWS ANI> THF:

16     DOCTOR HAS                EXPRESSED THOSE VIEWS.

17                             IF YOU WISH TO                      PURSUfo~             SOME'rHING ON

:1 8   R E 1, E V ANT BAS IS,                 I      T H INK     I 'r W U lJ D B E A P PRO P R I A 'T'}<~
                                                                       0                                          •


19     I'M GO I NG TO SUS 'r A I N 'I' HE                          0    B J E C 'r ION     AS 'r HAT B .In N(7

20     COMPLETELY                IRRELEVANT WITH REGARn TO THE ASBESTOS

21     AND   CIGARETT~                  FILTER.

22     BY MR.           SCHACHTMAN:

23     Q.         1)   R.    S C H E P 1': R S,           WHEN Y 0      lJ    PRE PAR E D 'I' H :to; G RAN T

24     APPLICA'rrON,                 ONI'::       ()fI'    'I'HFo '{'HINGS 'rHA']' YOU             HAD 'rHA'l' YOU

25     PUT   B.I<::FORE          'rHE    AMERICAN                CANCER             SOCI~:fI'Y   WAS    ')'HA'r       YOUR
                                                G.      Schepers                -    Cross                                     160


  1     R ft; SEA R C H        M r G H '1'     GI VE      FUR 'I' H Eo; R       R F; ASS U RAN C E              'r 0    P EO P L E

  ?     WHO     ARE           US IN (;       AS B E S   rr 0 SIN          S HOW I N G            '1' HAT      I 'f     WAS       NOT

  3     CARCINOGENIC.                          IS      THA'r    CORRECT?

 4      A.        I fi'       THE     RES U L ']1 s e A M E           0 U '1'       NEG A T I VET H A ']'               I 'r

  5     WOULDN       I    T    CAUSE           CANCER,          'rHto:N,            OF'     COURSE,             'I'HE       ONl,Y

 6      CON C ERN             WIT H       C H R Y S 0 'f 1 LEW 0 U 1.1 D             BET 0             PRE V EN '1'

 7      A S B E S 'I' 0 SIS •             IF    THE       RESULTS               CAME          OUT        POSfTIVE,                THEN

 8      THE    THRESHOLD                     IJIMIT       VALUES            WOULD              HAVE          HAD       TO      HAVE

 9      BEEN     LOWERED                  TO    NEAR          ZERO        OR        ZERO         TO      PROTECT               THEM

10      FROM     CANCER.

11      Q.        NOW,           DOCTOR,               YOU     TALKED               ABOUT             'fHE    FIRST

1 2 M E SOT H ELI 0 MAS                      ']' HAT    YOU     SAW         AND           W H A 'I'    YOU     ASS 0 C I ATE D

13      WITH     THEM.                IN       1962 YOU PREPARED A TEXT THAT WAS

1 4     G I V E NAT            THE        FIR E SID E          CON fo' ERE NeE                 JN      CHI C AGO ?

15      A.       YES,            PROBABJJY              DID.

16      Q.       IT           WAS     LATER            PUBLISHED                IN        THE         JOURNAL           OF

17      DISEASES               OF     THE       CHEST?

18      A.       YES.

19      Q.       AND           AT     THAT          'rIMI-:    YOU        WRO'I'E           "NEOPLASIA                  OCCURS

20      AND    THIS            IS     A      RESULT           FROM        ASBESTOS                    EXPOSURE              IN   TWO

21      FORMS,            NAMELY,              ALVEOLAR              AND        BRONCHIAL                    CARCINOMA               AND

22      PI.1EURAL             MESOTHE.LIOMA."                        IS     THA'r           CORRECT?


23      A.       YES,            SIR.


24      Q.       AND           YOU        WROTE         "'J'H A 'r    'rH E         I,AT'I'E R MB; so'r HE L IOMA                      IS

25      PAR TIC U L, A R I, y e o MM0 N                   T NCR 0 C T D 0 IJ I 'r ,,-;                W0 R K !<; R SAN D         HAS
                                              G.     S~heperR             -    CroSR                            J 61



  1   BEEN MAINl.Y REPORTED                              FROM         SOlJ'PH        Aft'R   leA."         I S "I' H A'r

  2   CORRECT?

  3   A.       YES         t       SIR.

  4   Q.       NOW         t       I   THlNK       YOU     SAID         IN 1960 DOCTORS                     AROUND

  5   THE WORLD                    BEGAN TO TAKE NOTICE OF MESOTHELIOMA AND

  6   T HAT WAS                '1' HER £0: S U VI'    0 FAN           ART I C L }<~     PUB LIS H E DRY             DR.

 7    CHRISTOPHER WAGNER.                                IS    THA"I' CORRECT?

  8   A.       T H A'I"        J   S   WHAT    J     HAD      I N MIN D,             YES,     SI   f<.•


 9    Q.       DR.             WAGNER,         I     UNDERSTAND,                 AT ONE         POINT HAD AN

10    AFFILIATION TO YOU.                                HE    WAS       A STUD8NT OF                     YOURS?

11    A.       YES         t       MANY    YEARS         AGO.

12    Q.       DR.             WAGNER         R~PORTED          ON       33     CASES OF             MESOTH~LIOMA


13    I N 1 9 6 0,             T H A'1' 1" 0 R THE: M0 S T PAR T CAM I<~ 0 lJ ']" 0 F ']' H ~;                         B L lJ E

1 4   H I 1. L S 0   {<'       'I' HEN 0   R T H CAP EWE S 'I'                PRO V INC E 0 f'            SOU T H

15    AFRICA?

16    A.       YES.

17    Q.       AND THE MAJOR                         FIBER MINED                 IN THE NORTH CAPE

18    WEST     PROVINCE                   ]S CROCIDOLITE OR                          BLUE ASBESTOS.                    IS

19    T HAT COR R E COP ?

20    A.       YES.

21    Q.       NOW,                YOU A TJ S 0      MEN T JON E: D T HAT YOU W{<: REA ME MB r; R

22    0 F THE AM E RIC A NCO L I., E G E 0                      {<'    C H E S 'I"    PH Y SIC] AN S

23    COMMIll'T£O~E                ON OCCUPA'rIONAL DISEASE?

24    A.       YES.

25    Q.       AND             I N 1964        'P H A '], C () MMI Ir T E 1<;        PRE PAR E lJ ARE V lEW () F
                                     G.   Schepers           -    Cross                162


 1    THE LITERATURE AND YOU WERE                            PART OF THE COMMITTEE

 2    THAT HELPED           PREPARE THE               R~VIEW?


 .3   A.        YES,     SIR.

 4    Q.        AND AT THAT TIME --

 5                       MR.    Me    CON N E L. IJ   :     T'M SORRY.        DOCTOR,     COULD

 6    YOU KEEP YOUR VOICE UP?                             I'M HAVING A HARD TIME

 7    HEARING YOU.

 8    A.        l'M SORRY.

 9    BY MR.        SCHACHTMAN:

10    Q.        IN THAT T[ME THIS COMMITTEE WHICH                                    WERE YOU

11    THE SECRETARY OR CHAIRMAN?

12    A.        r WAS THE SECRETARY AT THAT TIME.

1.3   Q.       DR.      THEODUS WAS THE CHAIR?

14    A.       DR.      THEODUS WAS THE CHAIRMAN.

15    Q.        DR.     '.rHEODUS HAS        NOW SINCfo:           PASSED AWAY BUT HE

16    WAS     IN PHILADELPHfA?

17    A.       RIGHT.          HE WAS      A CHEST PHYSICIAN HERE IN

18    PHI I. A0 E J. PHI A .

19    Q.        YOU WROTE A'l" THAT TIME                     "TN 'PHE MEDlCAL

20    LITERATURE THERE ARE MORE ARTICLES                                  FAVORING A

21    POSITIVE RELATIONSHIP                    BETWEEN CANCER OF THE LUNG AND

22    AS B EST 0 SIS T HAN DEN Y J NG 1 'l' .                    WHILE    IT HAS   BEEN

21    REPORTED THAT THERE MAY HE AN ENHANCED                                  PREVALENCE OF

24    PULMONARY NEOPLASIA                  IN SOME ASBESTOS                 INOUSTRIES,      FOR

25    P; X AMP I:" E,   C ROC I DO 1.. r TEO RAM () S I 'I' E 0 R 1 N S 0 ME
                                       "

                                      (T   •      Schepers        -     Cross                       163


 1    I,OCATIONS,        FOR      EXAMPI.lE,                  SOU'rH AFRICA,            ENGIJAND,      THIS

 2    DOES    NOT APPEAR              TO APPLY                 FOR THE          CHRYSO~'ILE        INDUSTRY

 .1   IN NORTH        AMERICA.                    THIS        COMMENT APPLIES                BOTH WITH

 4    RESPECT TO         INTRAPULMONARY NEW GROWTHS                                     OR    TO   PLEURAl.

      MESOTHELIOMA."                  IS THAT CORRECT?

 6    A.      'rHAT'S CORRECT.

 7    Q.      NOW,      IN 1964 THERE WAS                         A MAJOR           CON~ERENCE         IN

 8    NEW YORK

 9                     MR.       Me        CONNELL:              I'M SORRY TO                INTERRUPT

10    YOU,    COUNSEL.            WAS             THAT LAST ARTfCLE                    '64    AS   WELL?

11                     MR.       SCHACH'I'MAN:                   YES.

12                     MR.       MC        CONN Ea, L :          rrHANK         YOU.

13    BY MR.     SCHACHTMAN:

14    Q.      IN 1964 THERE WAS                           A MAJOR        CONFERr~NCE           IN NEW

15    YORK.     ltf    WAS   I    I        GUESS,             HEADED     BY DR.         IRVING

16    SELIKOFF AND YOU                     WERE          IN    ATTENDANCE,             CORRECT?

17    A.      YES,     SIR.

18    Q.      AND THE        PROC~EDINGS                       OF THAT          CONFER~NCE         WERE

19    REPORTED ALONG WITH                          SOME COMMENT THAT YOU                       MADE    IN    A

20    VOLUME OF THE ANNALS OF                                 THE NEW YORK ACADEMY OF                      TH~


21    SCIENCE WHICH              [S        DATED         DECEMBER          31,      1965?

22    A.      RIGHT,      SIIe

23    Q.      AND     CORRE<:r['           M}<~    IF'    I'M WRONG         1    YOU DlD NOrr

24    PUB LIS HAN Y A R '}' I C 1J E SIN T HA 'T'                     V() L UMfo~   B Uor    YOU DID H A V E

      SOME    COMMr~NT       '}'HAT WERE                 QUO'I'fo~D     TN THto:Rfi;.         IS   'fHAT
                                        G.        SCheperA         -   CrOAS                         164


 1     R I GH '1'?

 2     A.       RIGH'I'.

 .3    Q.       DR.     S C H F; P f': R S   I    IT WAS A'}' 'r HA 'P TIM E '1' HA'r YOU

 4     SUGGESTED,           ONE,        THAT THERE MIGHT BE A VJRAL

 5     COMPONENT TO MESOTHELIOMA?

 6     A.       YES.

 7     Q.       AND YOU A I J S 0                S UGG ~; S T I': D T H A'!' M E SOT H1': [J 10M A    I:   N

 8     SOUTH AFRICA M1GHT BE CAUSED BY                                    KIND OF GRASS CALLED

 9     KLITSGRAS,           K-L-I-T-S-G-R-A-S THAT WAS                               PREVALENT                 IN

l O T HE K URUM A N REG ION                       0 F'   SOU ']' H A F RIC A ?

11     A •      RIGH']'.

1?                        THE COU1Ff:                    BEFOR E YOU GO ON 'J'O ANY OTHER,

13     LET'S TAKE A SHORT BREAK.                                 WE'VE GONE RATHER

14     EXTENSIVELY.

15                                               (RECESS)

16                      (JURY        ENTERS.                COURT RECONVENED)

17

18     CROSS         EXAMINATfON

19     BY MR.         SCHACTMAN:

20     Q.       DR.     SCHEPERS,                 WHEN WE LEFT OFF WE WERE TALKING

21     ABOUT KLITSGRAS.                          THAT     IS A KIND OF GRASS.                   IS THA'I'

22     RIGHT?

23     A.       YES.

24     Q.       AND WHAT YOU WERE REFERRING TO AS THE CAUSE OR

2~     POTENTIAL CAUSE OF MESOTHELIOMA WERE THE SEEDS                                                      FROM
                                   G.      Schepers    -    Cross                        165



 1   'l"HAT GRASS THA')"           G1<;T    INTO 'rHE AIR AND CAN                 BE

     INSPIRED.           IS THA'l' CORREC'I'?

 3   A.        NO"I' THE S}<;EDS.            THEY ARE IN THAT PARTICULAR

 4   G R ASS    LIT 'J' LET I NY BAR B S A S THE Y , R E C A II L E; D .                VERY

 5   MINUTE SPIKES THAT STICK OUT ON THE SIDE OF THE

 6   GRASS AND IF            IT GETS ONTO YOUR CLOTHES                     ]'1'    DIGS       IN

 7   AND T R A VEL SAN D EVE NT UA II L Y GET S               1   NT 0   YOU R S K T NAN D

 8   MY CONCERN WAS WHETHER THE GRASS                             ITSELF MIGHT GET

 9   INTO THE SKIN THROUGH THE OUTSIDE AND GET INTO THE

10   PLEURA OR THAT            IT MfGHT CARRY SOMETHING                      IN WITH           IT.

11   THAT PART WAS           LATER ON PROVED TRUE                    IT CARRIES

12   A S B EST 0 S T N WI "]' H T T .

13   Q.        AMOSITE ASBESTOS               FROM THE AREA?

14   A.        NOT AMOSITE.                THIS CROCIDOLITE AND ASBESTOS

15   B 110 WS 0 F F THE DUM P SAN D LAN 0 SON T H F.; G R ASS                          AND THE

16   THE GRASS         HOLDS ASBESTOS.                SO IF YOU BREATHE THE

17   DUST FROM THE GRASS YOU GET EXTRA DOSE OF ASBESTOS.

18   Q.        AS    RJo~CENT1,Y    AS      LA'I'E 1975,     HOWEVER,        YOU HAVE

19   GIVEN TESTIMONY THAT MESOTHELIOMA                             IS A VIRUS

20   SPREADING AROUND THE WORLD?

21   A.        THAT WAS NEVER DETERMINED.                         T SAID THAT ONE OF

22   THE THINGS WE SHOULD LOOK                     INTO IS WHETHER VIRUSES

23   PLAY A PAR'l' TN MESO"rHELIOMA,                       BECAUSE WHA'I'          I   HAll

24   OBSERVED WAS THA'P 'PHI'; DOC'l'ORS WOUIJD REPORT SAY TEN

25   CASES      IN    YEAR    '60       AND 'I"HEN NO"rHING 'l'HE Nf';X'r YEAR AND
                                 G.   SchAperS    -   Cross                  166


 1    THEN THE NEXT YEAR THEY REPORT 20 CASES AND THEN A

 2    YEAR OR TWO GOES            BY AND NOTHING AND THEN THERE'S

 3    ANOTHER BLIP OF REPORTING AND WHEN YOU SEE A THING

 4    LIKE THIS GOING UP AND DOWN.                    T HAT   USUA I, l, Y S UGG EST S

 5    A VIRUS ENVIRONMENT LIKE FLU VIRUS COMING ALONG

 6    MAKES TEN PERCENT OF THE PEOPLE ILL AND SKIPS A FEW

 7    YEARS AND THEN MAKES THEM ILL AGAIN AND SO FORTH.

 8    THAT'S WHY T SUGGfi;S'r WE SHOUIJD LOOK AT VIRUSES.

 9    Q.       INDEED,        YOU TESTIFIED SO IN 1975?

10    A.       YES.       T REPEATED THAT STATEMENT.

11    Q.      DR.      SCHEPERS,      YOU HAVE GIVEN A PRESENTATION TO

12    THE UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR ON TALC

13    WHICH WE TALKED ABOUT A LITTLE BIT AND ALSO ON THE

14    SILICATES          IN WHICH     YOU DISCUSSED DIFFERENT KIND OF

15    ASBESTOS FIBER?

16    A.      THAT IS CORREC'r.           THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN ABOUT

17    1972 OR          '73.

18    Q.      AND THAT WAS ACTUALLY PUBLISHED AS                     INFORMATION

19    C I R C U l,AR    8639?

),0   A.       YES,      SIR.

21    Q.       AND AT 'r HAT T T ME YOU I N D T CAT IU> T H A'" HUM AN

2?    S'rUDIES HAD INCL,UDED OBSERVATIONS ON CROCTDOLI'PE AND

2.3   AMOSI'PE MINERS ANI> MILLERS               IN AFRICA,       TALC MILl,ERS

24    AND    INDUSTRIAL         WORKERS   IN   UNITED     STATES     AND   CANADA

25    AND TEXTILE WORKERS              IN FIBERGLASS AND SYNTHETIC
                                     G.    scheper~       -   Cro~s                 j   67



       1   FIBER       INDUSTRI~S      AND     YOU WERE COMMENTING TO             TH~


       2   DEPARTMENT OF          lNTERJOR ON THOSE WORKERS,                  CORRECT?

       3   A.      YES.

       4   Q.      AND AT THE TIME YOU NOTED                   "THERE HAD BEEN

       5   SPORADIC AND POSSIBLE SPURIOUS ATTEMPTS TO CLASSIFY

       6   MINERALS       SUCH AS TALC OR TREMOLITE AS                   FIBROUS DUST

       7   AND THAT TH I S WAS DONE ON THE BA SIS Or' 'J'HREE

       8   PROPERTIES."           THE FACT THEy'RE BOTH SILICATES;                        TWO,

       9   THE FACT SOME SAMPLES OF TALC AND TREMOLITE HAVE A

      10   MINORTTY OF LONG FIBERS THAT ARE LIKE RODS?

      11   A.      YES.

      12   Q•      ANn 'r HR E E,    '1' HAT   'r A1J COR T REM 0 IJ IT E [} E PO SIT S
'--
      13   OCCUR GEOLOGICALLY              IN CIJOSE PROXIMI'T'Y TO ORE BODIES

      14   AND OTHER MINERALS?

      15   A.      THOSE ARE IN UPSTATE NEW YORK MINES.

      16   Q.      AND,    INDEED,        THERE ARE SOME EPIDEMIOLOGIC

      17   STUDIES THAT HAVE BEEN DONE BY THE UNITED STATES

      18   PUBLIC HEALTH SERV[CE ON THOSE TALC MINES.                             IS THA'11

      19   CORRECT?

      20   A.      I    BELIEVE DR.        DEMENT DID SOME STUDIES,               YES.

      21   Q.      HE DID FIND SOME MESOTHELIOMA COMING OUT OF

      22   THAT TALC MINE?

      23   A.      I    BELIEVE SO.

      24   Q.      GOING BACK TO THAT CONFERENCE IN NEW YORK,                                IN

      25   1964,       THE VERY     ISSUE OF WHETHER SOME PATIENTS WHO
                           G.    Schepers    -   Cross                 J 68



 1    HAVE PERICARDIAL PUTRILAGfo: OR            PL~URODES]S       WI'rH

  2   SURGICAL TALC WAS         RAISED.     IS THA'I'    CORRF~CT?


  3   A.   YES.

  4                MR.   Me CON NEI, L :    YOUR HONOR,      I'M GOING TO

  5   OBJECT.     MAY WE BE HEARD AT SIDEBAR?

  6                THE COURT:       YES.

 7                        (ON THE RECORD

  8                MR.   MC CONNEIJL:       YESTERDAY,      FOR THE FIRST

 9    TIME ON CROSS EXAMINATION,            COUNSEL ASKED THE FlRST

10    QUESTION IN THIS CASE ABOUT TALC OF DR.                 GIUDICE.        I

11    SURMISED THAT WHAT HE WAS TRYING TO INFER SOMEHOW

12    WAS THAT ALTHOUGH IT WAS NEVER              PART OF 'J'HEIR ANSWER

13    TO INTERROGATORIES WE SPECIFICALJJY ASKED THEM IF

14    THEY ALLEGED THAT ANY OTHER            PERSON,      AGENT,     WHATEVER,

15    YOU KNOW,   GOES ON AND ON WORDING,               THEY ALLEGE ANYONE

16    ELSE IS RESPON::;IBIJE,      YOU KNOW,     FOR rrHE DISEASE.

17    THEIR ANSWER IS      SJNGULARLY NO.         '['HEY SAY ,}'HAT 'J'HEIR

18    POSITION IS    SEE DR.      REICHMAN'S ATTACHED REPORT,

19    EXCEPT THEY HAVE AMENDED IT TO SAY YES,                 WE ALLEGE

20    JOHNS-MANVILLE AND         PRODtlCTS FROM JOHN HANSVILLE WERE

21    A CAUSATIVE FACTOR.

2),        THEY HAVE NEVER         EVER,    PRIOR TO US      BEING

23    HALF-WAY THROUGH THE TRIAl.,           AMENDED ANSWERS TO

24    INTERROGATORIES TO PUT ME ON NOTICE THEY WERE GOING

25    TO ALLEGE CONTRARY TO DR.            R~[CHMAN'S      REPORT WHICH
                                                                                       169


  1   C LEA R 1J Y SAY SIN C L U DIN GAS U P P IJ r~ MF; NTAL REP 0 R T W.H J C H

  2   CLEARLY SAYS AMOSITE WAS THE CAUSE.

  3                    THERE'S A SECOND SUPPLEMENTAL                            KEPORT THEY

  4   SAl D 'f' 0    MA KE I   '1'   C LEA R T H A '}I THE P () SIT ION T HAT DR.

  5   REICHMAN WOULD TAKE WAS THAT AMOSITE WAS THE CAUSE.

  6   AND CO U N S ELI S TRY T NG Ir 0           T N F' E R,       WIT H A B SO IJ UTE 1. Y NO

  7   PROOF' AND IN CON'l'RA-DIS'PINC'PION TO 'PHE

  8   INTERROGATORIES THEY PROVIDED,                           I    THINK HE KEEPS

  9   TRYING TO INFER TO THIS                   JURY THAT THE TALC POSSIBLY

10    MAY HAVE BEEN A CAUSE OR CONTRIBUTING FACTOR                                    TO THE

1:1   DISEASE.

12                     MR.     SCHACH'l'MAN:         MAY I          RESPOND?

13                     THE COURT:            YES.

14                     MR.     SCHACHTMAN:           MR.       Me CON N E 1.1., S PEN 'l' 'I' E N

15    MINUTES GOING INTO TALC AND HOW                              IT COULD NOT BE A

16    FACTOR        ON DIRECT EXAMINATION.                     HI-'; OPENElJ THAT DOOR

17    AND SO MANY OTHER DOORS                   SO WIDE OPEN THAT I                  CAN'T

18    BELIEVE HE'S GOING TO OBJECT.

19                     I   AM NO'l' GOING TO TELL ,]'HIS ,JURY THA'l' TAIJC

20    CAUSED THE MESOTHELIOMA IN MR.                           HILL.        I   AM           IT

21    IS A CREDIBILITY PROBLEM,                     HOWEVER.

                       THE COURT:            HOW DOES          IT BECOME A

23    CREDIBILITY --

24                     MR.     SCHACH'lIMAN:         BECAUSE THESE DOCTORS

25    HAVE CF:RTAIWfIES 'rHA'l1 lor WAS If HE CHRYSO'J'ILE AND                               IN
                                                                                                    370



  J    'I' H E   CAS E   0   F () THE REX P () SUR F: SAN 0               F ACE   0   F   THE    B EST


  2    SCIENTIFIC UNDERSTANDING THAT IT WAS ONE OR TWO

  3    FIBERS THAT ACTUALLY PENETRATED A CELL AND DISRUPTED

  4    THE CELL'S METABOLISM.                               I'M GOING TO SUGGEST TO THE

  5    JURY IT'S JUST AS                        LIKELY THAT TALC IS AS ANYTHING

  6    ELSE AND THAT'S RIDICULOUS.

  7                          THE COURT:                IS   'I' HER E   ANY QUE S '}' ION       0   F TAL C

  8    BEING USED?

  9                          MR.       SCHACH'rMAN:             YES.

10                           THE COURT:                BY WHO?

11                           MR.       SCHACHTMAN:              DR.     MEOLI.

12                           THE COURT:                TALC BEING USED BY WHOM?

13                           MR.       SCHACHTMAN:              BY THE SURGEONS                 IN 1968.

14                           THE; COURT:               ON               AT THE TIME OF THE ONE

15     SURGICAL PROCEDURE?

16                           MR.       S C HAC H'}' MAN :       CORRECT.

17                           THE COUR'l':              AND WILL THERE BE ANY

18     T EST I M0 NY T HAT T HAT TAL CON T HAT 0 N E SUR G I C A I.

19     PROCEDURE WOULD HAVE BEEN SUFFICIENT                                                 SUFFICIENT

20     BASIS FOR CAUSE

21                           MR.       SCHACHTMAN:              DR.     SCHEPERS SAID THERE'S

22     NO SAFE LEVEl. o It' EXPOSURE.

;/,3                         ir H F.   C 0 U R 'I' :   NO WHA'f?

24                           MR.       SCHACHTMAN:

),5                          THE COURT:                TO '1' AI. C ?
                                                                             J 71


 1                    MR.    ~CHACHTMAN:        TALC HAS TREMOLITE.

 2   THAT'S THE EVIDENCE               IN THIS CASE.

 3                    MR.    MC CONNEl,L:       NO.     'rHA'r'S JUST THE

 4   OPPOSITE OF WHAT HE SAID.                  WHAT HE TESTIFIED -- AND

 5   IT WAS ONLY BECAUSE YOU BROUGHT IT UP YESTERDAY                                ON

 6   CROSS EXAMINATION.                YOU SPECIFICALLY ELICITED THAT

 7   ISS U E 0 1<'   '}' A L CAN D   T TWA SON IJ Y   BEe AU S E 0 F' '1' HAT;   BUT

 8   THERE HAS        BEEN NO 'l'f!;srJ'IMONY THAT THE TAI,e CONTAINED

 9   ASBESTOS.          T HIS J U R Y CAN NOT BE A IJ IJ 0 WED']' 0     S P E C ULA T E;

10   THAT TALC        PROVIDED        IN 1968 CONTAINED ASBESTOS WHEN

11   THERE'S NO PROOF OF ]T.

12                    MR.    SCHACHTMAN:        WE'RE GOING TO LET THIS

13   JURY SPECULATE CHRYSOTIIJE FROM MY MINE CONTAINED

14   TREMOLITE AND           r'M     NO~   GOING TO ALLOW BALDUC TO COME

15   IN AND SAY IT DIDN'T?

16                    THE COURT:           GENTLEMEN,        r'M NOT GOING TO

17   BAR YOU FROM YOUR EXAMINATION.                      I   CAN ONLY SAY THIS

18   TO YOU.         WITHOUT SOME E:VJ DENCE OR TESTIMONY wr'rH

19   REGARD TO THE USE OF TALC AND THE EXTENT OF                           ITS      USE

20   WITH SOMEBODY FORMING SOME KIND OF AN OPINION THAT

21   IT COULD HAVE BEEN A CAUSATIVE FACTOR,                        THERE IS NO

22   SUCH    ISSUE      IN THE CASE.

23                    THE MERE FACT THAT TALC WAS THERE AND MAY

24   HAVE CONTAINED TREMOLITE SUCH AS YOU'VE ALREADY

25   INDICATED CONCERNING WHICH HAS ALREADY                        BEEN
                                                                                          172



         1    TESTIMONY BY THIS              WJrI'NF~SS,    AND I'M SURE WTL,L BF; BY

         2    OTHER WITNESSES,              RAISES,    OF' COURSE,        THE INFERENCE

         3    THAT THE TALC USED ON ONE PARTICULAR OCCASION

         4    WITHOUT MORE            IS GOING TO BE PROOF OF THE CAUSATIVE

         5    FACTOR.     WE'VE GOT TO HAVE SOMETHING TO THAT GOES

         6    BEYOND THAT.            I    DON'T SEE WHERE          IT CAN STAND BY

         7    ITSELF.     ASIDE FROM THAT,                 YOU CAN DO YOUR

         8    EXAMINATION.            'PHE AREA WAS OPENED BY MR.                     MC CONNELL.

         9    I F YOU SEE FIT TOP U R SUE 1 T,                  I' M GO I NG   ']10    PER MIT YOU

       10     TO PURSUE       I~[,.



       11                     I    THINK THAT YOU'RE IN AREAS THAT ARE SO

       12     COMPLETELY CONFUSING AND BEYOND WHAT MAY PERHAPS BE

'---   13     SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO BE ULT[MATELY UNDERSTOOD

       14     BY THIS JURY BECAUSE OF THE RELATIONSHIP TO THE

       15     RELATIONSHIP TO THE RELATIONSHIP                       BECAUSE YOU'RE

       16     TALKING ABOUT TALC CONTAINING TREMOLITE.

       17     CAN BE A CAUSA'I'IVF; EFFEC'II AND YET THERE S NOTHING           I




       18     MORE.     IT'S UP TO YOU.               YOU MAY GO INTO ALL OF THIS.

       19     IT MAY ALSO HAVE SOME EFFECT ON CREDIBIIJITY OF THIS

       20     WITNESS,    I       DON'T KNOW.         THE DOOR WAS OPENED.                 I'M

       21     GOING TO PERMIT IT.                IT IS FOR YOU TO DETERMINE THE

       22     EXTENT TO WHICH YOU WISH TO GO.

       2 _1                   MR.     SCHACH'PMAN:          J   HAVE; A   COUPLE


       24     QUESTIONS.

       25                     MR.     Me   CONNELL,:        IF HF:'S GOING TO
                                                                                    1 7.1



 1   CROSS-EXAMINE THE DOCTOR,                     I       WOULD JUST ASK THAT HE

 2   COM PLY WI    rr H   '1' H£0:   C 0 U R'1' R U IJ E SIN T HAT H E S HOW ME

 3   DOCUMENTS BEFORE HE SHOWS THEM TO THE W]TNESS.

 4                   MR.       SCHACHTMAN:             I    WILl, GI,ADLY    DO THA'l'.

 5                   THE COURT:                I THINK THAT WOULD BE

 6   APPROPRIATE dUST TO WHAT IT IS YOU'RE GOING TO

 7   EXAMINE AS TO.

 8                                      (OPEN COURT)

 9   BY MR.      SCHACHTMAN:

10   Q.      DOCTOR,        WHEN WERE WE LEFT OFF                  I   WAS ASKING YOU

11   ABOUT SOME INTERCHANGE YOU HAD WITH DR.                                SELIKOFF

12   ABOU'l' ACTUAIJl,Y PU'rTING TAI.,C THAT DID HAVE TREMOLI'I'E:

13   INTO THE PLEURAL SPACE OF PEOPLE BACK IN THE

14   MID-1960'S AND DR.                  SELIKOFF COMMENTED SPECIFICALLY

15   ON THAT AT THE PROCEEDINGS OF THE CONFERENCE IN NEW

16   YORK.

17   A.      I   DON'T KNOW WHETHER                IT'S       PLEURAL ASBESTOS.             I

18   THINK IT WAS           PERICARDIAL SPACE AROUND THE HEART THAT

19   WE WERE TALKING ABOUT.                     YES,       THERE WAS SUCH A

20   DISCUSSION.

21   Q.      WELL,    DOCTOR,            DR.   SELIKOFF COULD NOT FIND ANY

22   SUR V I V0 R S 0 F P EO P LEW H0           HAD TAL CPU TIN 'r 0          THE

23   PERICARDIAL SPACE BECAUSE MOST OF THEM DIED FROM

24   HEART DISEASE THAT REQUIRED THE SURGICAIJ PROCEDURE,

25   CORRI:i;CT?
                                           G.         Schepers -               Cross                   174



  1    A.      THAT         IS THE COMMENT J                            HEARD.

  2    Q.      AND OR.            S~LIKOFF                   ALSO COMMENTED THAT THE TALC

  3    WAS   A J ISO   lJ   S E f) 'I' 0    C A USE P Id'; U ROD E SIS () R S 'J' I C K 1 NG

  4    TOG E THE R     0    F 'I' H0 S r~ TWO P I~ E U R A L SUR F ACE S sop EO P I IE

  5    WOULDN'T GET COLLAPSED LUNGS.                                            IS THA'l' CORRECT?

  6    A.      RIGHT.

  7    Q.      DOCTOR,            I   WANT TO REFER YOU                             BACK TO THAT TALC

  8    SYMPOSIUM FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF THE                                                  INTERIOR   IN

  9    1972.      WAS         IT 1972?

10     A.      YES.

11     Q.      AT 'l'HAT TIME YOU NOTED THAT TREMOLITE WAS OFTEN

12     CLASSIFIED AS TALC?

1..1   A.      YES.

14     Q.      AND THAT               IT HAD THE                     ~MPIRICAL         ~ORMULA     AND THIS

15     I'D LIKE TO WRITE DOWN.                                       DOCTOR,        WHAT DlD YOU GIVE

16     AS THE EMPIRICAL FORMULA FOR TREMOLITE                                                  IN 1972?

17     A.      IT WAS CALCIUM TWO ATOMS,                                        MAGNESIUM EIGHT

18     ATOMS,     I    THINK.               SILICA,                  THREE OR        TWO           NO,      NINE.

19     SILICA WAS NINE.                         OXYGEN 22                 AND WATER TWO.

20     Q.      ACTUALLY,              IT WASN'T WATER,                            IT WAS HYDROXILIZED,

21     CORRECT?

22     A.      YES.

23     Q.      IT WAS 'rwo?

24     A.      TWO.

25     Q.      S O l 'II      WAS 1\1 'T        1:"   0 UR   ')' 0    0 N F.   SIl, I C A         OXYGEN TO
                                         G.    Schepers -        Crnss                         175


  1    SIT, I C A,    I cp    WAS       22    TON I N E FOR T R F; MOL, I '1' E ?

  2    A.      WELL,          YES.           THE    S I 1,1 CAW AS    COM BIN E D WIT H 'I' H E

  .3   CALCIUM.              THAT'S          WHAT HAPPENED THERE .

 4     Q.      ALL RIGHT.                    AND AT THAT TIME YOU NOTED THAT THE

  5    TREMOLITE             PARTICL~S             MANIFEST A STIFF ROD OR                    NE~DLES,


  6    CORRECT?

  7    A.      YES.

  H    Q.      NO']' ALL,          PARTJCL~S,              BUT SOME    PORTION OF

  9    T REM 0 LIT E WI        fJ I,    MAN T F EST A S ROD S         0R   NEE D L E S,       COR R E C T ?

10     A.      RIGHT.

11                           MR.       MC CONNEI,!,:          EXCUSE ME.         MAY      I    HAVE A

12     CONTINUING OBJECTION?                           I   UNDERSTAND THE COURT'S

13     RULING.

14                           THE COURT:              PERMIT     IT.

15                           MR.       MC CONNELL:           THANK YOU,        STR.

16     BY MR.        SCHACHTMAN:

17     Q.      AND AT THl<::; TIME YOU GAVE A RATING OF THE

18     PATHOGENICITY,                   PATHOGENICITY OF SILICA?

19     A.      YES.

20     Q.      PATHOGENTCITY OF SILICATES TO CAUSF: DISEASE?

21     A•      SAME TYPE OF DISEASE                         IN THE SAME TIMESPAN.

2.2    Q.      WE' R E COM PAR I NG THE SAM E 'I' H I NG FOR E AC H KIN D 0 P'

23     FIBER?

24     A.      RIGH'r.

25     Q.      AND AT THAT 'rIME YOU GAVr; ON A SCAt,E OF                                      ZERO
                                G.     Schepers      -    Cross                  176


 1    THROUGH NINE;        YOU GAVE CROCIDOLITE AN                   EIGHT.       IS

 /.   THAT CORRECT?

 .3   A.     RIGHT.

 4    Q.     AND YOU GAVE AMOSITE A SEVEN?

 5    A.     RIGH,{'.

 6    Q.     AND ANT HOP HY I, 1,1 TEA         SI X?

 7    A.     YES.

 8    Q.     AND YOU GAVE CHRYSOTILE A FOUR?

 9    A.     RIGH'P.

10    Q.     AND YOU GAVE TR EMOI, 1'1' Ii: WITH MANY ROD S OR

11    NEEDLES     A TWO.        IS     'rHAT CORRECT?

12    A.    YES.

1.3   Q.     AND,      AGAIN,     I    WIIJL GIVE 'I'HIS TO Y01J          IF YOU NEED

14    TO SF.:E   IT.     BUT AT THE TIME YOU                INDICAT~D      THAT THE

J5    FORMULA FOR CHNYSOTILE WAS                    SIX ATOMS OF MAGNES(UM,

16    FOUR OF     STI,ICA,      TEN OF OXYGEN AND HYDROXYl, RADICAl.,

17    EIGHT OF 'PHOSE.            DOE S '{' H A'r   s () UN D RIG HT ?

18    A.    YES.

19    Q.    FORMULA       OF THESE MINERALS HAVE NOT CHANGED                           IN

20    17 YEARS,        HAVE THEY?

21    A.    THE     FORMULAE          KEEP CHANGING BECAUSE OF              SOME

22    MINERALOGISTS'         OR       CHEMISTS'      PERSPECTIVE ON HOW TO

23    WRITE THEM.         ('M ALWAYS          PUZZLED BY THAT.             IF YOU

24    LOOK AT GERMAN         BOOK YOU        FIND THE FORMULA ONE WAY AND

25    FRr~NCH    BOOK    WOULD BE AN()'[,HRR             WAY.     NOW,   WE'RE
                                C;.    Schepers          -   t:ross                 177


 1   FRIENDS OF THE RUSSIANS.                        I   SUP PO SEW E ' 1, L,   SEE '}' H E I R

 2   WAY OF WRITING THIS                 FORMULA.

 3   Q.       DO YOU KNUW DR.                 FREDERICK       POOLEY?

 4   A.       HMM?

 5   Q.       DR.    POOLEY,      FREDERICK POOLEY?

 6   A.       NO.

 7   Q.       YOU NEVER       HEARD OF DR.               POOLEY?

 8   A.       SPEJJL, THE NAME.

 9   Q.       P-O-O-L-E-Y?

10   A.       OH,    THAT'S DOCTOR              IN   ENGLAND.         POOI,EY.

11   Q.       MIN ERA l,OG T S'1' ?

12   A •      YES.

13   Q.       AND DO YOU R8COGNIZE DR.                       POOI,EY AS    A    WORLD

14   R E KNOW N AUT H 0 R 1 T YIN THE ARE A 0 F' MIN ERA 1.. 0 G Y ?

15   A.       YES.     HE'S WELL EXPERIENCED.

16   Q.       NOW,    IN THIS         PRESENTATION TO THE DEPARTMENT OF

17   INTER[OR,        HE   PRESENTED THE CASE OF A MAN WHO WORKED

18   IN THE CHRYSOTILE MILL FOR ABOUT                           23 YEARS.          IS THAIT'

19   CORRECT?

20   A.       YES.

21   Q.       AND THIS MAN HAD ASBESTOSIS                       FROM WORKING          IN THE

22   MIl,L?

23   A.       YES.

24   Q.       AND    SO HE HAD        ENOUGH ASBESTOS,                CHRYSOTTLE

25   A S B EST 0 SEX P 0 SUR E    I   'T' 0   H AV g WHAT YOU CAL )1 C HR Y S 0 'T' I IJ F;
                             (~.   Sc h   e per g    -   Cr 0 S S                    178



 ]     ASBESTOSIS?

 2     A.      RIGHT.

 .'3   Q.      AND AT THAT TIME YOU REPORTED THAT THE MAN HAD

 4     NO PHYSIOIJOGICAI.J TMPAIRMEN'I' FROM HIS                      EXPOSURE?

 5     A.      RIGHT.

       Q.      AND 'I'HAT WAS WHA'I' YOU CONSIDERED A')' THE rrIME TO

 7     BE CHARACTERISTIC OF THE EXPOSURE TO CHRYSOTILE FRUM

 8     THAT KIND OF SETTING?

 9     A.      RIGHT.     20 YEARS MOS'r OF THEM DON                   I   ']'   HAVE ANY

10     IMPAIRMENT.

11     Q.      WELL,    THIS MAN HAD WORKED FOR                     23 YEARS        IN THE

12     QUEBEC      PROVINCE AND HAD NO OTHER                  EXPOSURE TO ANY

13     OTHER KIND OF OUSTS?

14     A •     RIGHT.

15     Q.      AND    IN COMPARING THAT CASE YOU NOTED THAT THE

16     ASBESTOSIS       PRODUCED BY AMOSTTf': OR CROCIJ)OLITE WAS OF

17     A MUCH MORE SEVERE GRADE?

18     A.      CORRECT.     MAKING ALL THINGS                 EQUAL --

19     Q.      SAME AMOUNT OF TIME?

20     A.      SAME TIME,    SAME DOSE,             ET CETERA.

21     Q.      AND YOU NOTED THAT TREMOLITE COULD BE STUDIED

22     IN    ITS   PARTICULAR ROD OR NEEDLE-LIKE FORM.                              IS THAT

23     RIGHT?

24     A.      YES.

25     Q.      YOU    REPORTRD AT THE TIME THAT TREMULITE oro NOT
                                               G.        Scheper!':              -    Cross



 1   HAVfo~        A    S[GN11"ICAN'l'                   EFFECT             ON       EXPERIMEWfAL..                ANIMAL,S?

 2   A.            RIGH'l'.             IN     A        REPORT            I,IKE       'l'HAT       WE       HAVE     TO

 3   DIFFERENTIATE                        BETWEEN               THE         TREMOLITE,                  GENERIC

 4   TREMOLITE,                  COMMERCIAL                     TREMOLITE,                    THINGS           CALLED

 5   TREMOLITE                 AND        ASBESTOS                TREMOLITE.

 6                 T 'M       'l'ALKING            HERE         ABOUT            COMMERCIAIJ                 ,]'REMOLI,]"E

 7   SO 1, D       TN     A    BAG        'l' H A 'I"    YOU      CAN         BUY       I N    A     S TOR E       AND        CAL L      ft~   0


 8   TREMOLI'I"E.                     THAT         IS        GENERALLY                HAS      VERY          ~EW     ASBESTOS

 9   NEEDLES              IN     I'r.          I 'I" 'S        PRE D 0 MIN ANT 1, Y                CRY S ']" ALL IN E           FOR M

10   IN     WHI C H           THE       S HAP 1';        0 F    THE         IN D I V IOU A L            F   r R g J:< S I S     SO R 'J'

11   OF     LIKE          THIS          CUP        WHERE         THEY'RE:              ABOU'f           A    JJI'I'TId'~      BIT

12   LON G E R          T HAN         T H t<~ Y , R E        WID E,         BUT       "r HEY       DON' 'J I      CON FOR M '1' 0

13   THE       AS B EST 0 S             P H Y SIC A I,          C H A R ACT E R J S TIC S •

14   Q.            SO     THE         SHAPE             OF     THE        PARTICLE             OR       FIBER        IS

15   IMPORTANT                 IN       CONSLDERING                       ITS        PATHOGENICITY.                        IS THAT

16   CORRECT?

17   A.            RIGH'r.

18   Q.            THAT'S             BELIEVED                 EVEN         TODAY?

19   A.            RIGH'f.

20   Q.            NOW,        YOU        ALSO           NOTED            THAT        YOU      HAD          HAD

21   COMPREHENSIVE                        PERSONAL               EXPERIENCE                    WITH          THE     EFFECTS

22   OF     AMOSITE              OR       CROC[OOIJITE                     ON        EXPERIMENTAL                  ANIMALS

23   AND      THArr          'PHI<;     I<;XPERIMENTS                     '['HAT     YOU       PERSONAIJLY

24   PERFORMED                 AND        REVTEW}<~J)            ON        THE        SUBJECT               CONF'IRM          'T'HA'I'

2S   T H I<: S E    'T' W0     SlId CAT I:i: S,                CR0   r:   I DOL J '1' ft;   AND         A M0 S J 'T' E,       ARE
                                       (.;..    S c h e per   ~    -   Cr 0 S S                   180


  1    SIGNIFICANTLY MORE                       PATHOGENIC TO MANY                      nlFFEREN1'

  2    A N I MA I. S P E C I 1': S T HAN AN 0 T H r; RAN' rHO P HY JJ I, I '1' E: 0 R

  3    CHRYSOTILE?

  4    A.      'I' H AT'   S    CO J< R E CT.

  5    Q.      NOW   I     I N 'I' HIS         PRE SEN T A 'I' ION TOT H E D r; PAR T MEN T 0 F'

  6    INTERIOR ,          YOU ALSO DISCUSSED CARCINOGEN1CITY                                     AND YOU

  7    ALREADY DEFINED THAT FOR                           US?

  8    A.      I    THINK THERE'S A SECTION ON THAT.

  9    Q.      AND LET ME DIGRESS                        FROM CARCINOGENICITY AND GO

10     TO TOXICITY.                  YOU MENTION THAT ASBESTOS                            FIBERS OF A

11     DIFFERENT KIND WERE NOT TOXIC.                                     IS      THAT CORRECT?

12     A.      THEY'RE NOT TOXIC                      IN THE SENSE OF ORDINARY

13     TOXICITY ,          YES.

14     Q.      AND A TOXIN                IS     A CHEMICAl, CRt';ATED                   BY A BACTERlA

15     OR VIRUS?

16     A.      NO.

17     Q.      THAT        IS    POISONOUS?

1 fl   A.      NO.         THAT'S        A TOXIN.                 A TOXIN         IS    SOMETHING THA'I'

19     COMES       FROM VIRUSES.                   TO X ICC HEM I C A IJ           I SAC HEM 1 C A I.

20     THAT GETS ABSORBED AND THEN WHEN                                     IT     IS    IN THE

21     ABSORBED FORM                 [N THE BLOOD WOULD                     BE CARNIED TO A

22     DISTANT ORGAN             I   SAY THE          KIDNEY OR             IJIVER OR       BRAIN    I   AND

23     THEN    PRODUCE SYMPTOMS                     BY   INTERFERING WITH

24     FUN C T ION I NG 0 F '1' H }4~ C E 1. I. S 0 F T HAT 0 R G A N ld K E LEA D

25     POISONING , FOR INSTANCE.
                                   G.    Schepers -         Cross                       1 81



  1    Q.     AND A TOX IN WOULD               BE    SOME'I'H T NG '1'HA'I' YOU MI GH'l'

  2    GET FROM A SALMONELLA INFECTION?

  3    A.     RIGHT.         BACTERIA MIGHT SECRETE CHEMICAL

  4    SUB S TAN C E S,    A L T E R C HEM I C A I. SUB S TAN C E S,        0 RG AN I C

  5    CHEMICALS THAT FLOAT INTO YOUR                         BLOODSTR~AM.


  6    Q.     ASBESTOS        IS    NOT ORGANIC CHEMICAL?

  7    A.     YES.

  8    Q.     AND SO ASBESTOS WOULD NOT BE A TOXIN?

  9    A.     RIGH'I'.

10     Q.     NOW,    LET ME GO BACK TO THE                     UEPARTM~NT         OF

11     INTERIOR PRESENTATION.                   AT THAT TIME             IN 1972 YOU

12     NOT EDT HAIf       "P L ..~ U RAj, ME SOT H ELI 0 MAS        HAD R ..~ C EN T IJ Y

1 .3   EM ERG F: D A SAN      T MP 0 R If A N'I' N)<; 0 P fJ A S TIC,   CAN C E R 0 US,

14     SEQUE1,A OF CROCIDOld'I'E EXPOSURF:?"

15     A.     RIGHT.

16     Q.     AT T HAT TIM E YOU S T I IJ L HAD                 SUB S TAN r(' I A L DO U B T S

17     WHETHER CHRYSOTILE COULD CAUSE MESOTHELIOMA AT ALL?

18     A.     RIGHT.

19     Q.     AND YOU NOTED THAT AMOSITE WAS                            PROBABLY

20     CARCINOGENIC BUT YOU HAD                     SOME DOUBTS OR            IT WASN'T AS

21     DECISIVELY CARCINOGENIC AS                        CROCIDOLITE        IN YOUR VIEW?

22     A.     RIGHT.

23     Q.     NOW,    DOCTOR,           I'M aOLNG TO ASK YOU ABOUT YOUR

24     COMMENTS WITH          RESPECT TO CHRYSOTII.E AND YUU NOTED AT

25     THAT TIME THAT           "THE     Al.l.E;("TE;D    CARC[NOG!4;NICTTY OF
                                              G.         Schepers -                         Cross                                   J 8 ;),


  1    C H R Y SOT I L E,          WH] CHI S                     MIN E DIN                  'I' HE    V Tel N ]      i[' Y    0 F     0 NE         0 F

  2    THE       MAJOR       TREMOLITE                         DEPOSITS                 IN      NORTH          AMERICA,                  HAS

  .3   8 E: EN    AN    ADD I T H> N A I,                CON F U SIN G                  FA C rr 0 R •           PERSONS               WHO

  4    ARE       NOT    THO R 0     {J(';'   HI. Y       1:"   A M I 1-, I A R       WIT H THE                R A 'I' HER         MA J 0 R

  5    MIN ERA LOG I C A I,             AND          8    r0     L0   eTl C A 1.        D IFF ERE: NeE S               8 E '}' WE f: N

  6    '}' REM 0 L I rr E    AND        C H R Y SOT T L E:                    MAY       H AV E        B J<:: ENe 0 N ):t' USE: n              BY

  7    THE       GEOLOGICAL                  CLOSE               ASSOCIATION                         OF     THESE            OR     80DIE~


 8     AND       THE    ERRONEOUS                    ASSUMPTION                         THA'f         80TH          'j'RE:MOI,I'J'E            AND

  q    CHRYSOTILE                 ARE        ASBESTOS                  MINERAIJS."

10                THAT'S           WHAT           YOU            WROTE             IN       1972?

11     A.         RIGHT.

12     Q.         THE       LATTER            ISSUE                 HAS        ALREADY                8EEN          I>ISCUSSED                 AND

13     THAT'S          THE        TREMOLITE,                        WHETHER                 THAT'S           AN      AS8ESTOS

14     MINERAL?

15     A.         RIGH'I'.

16     Q.         AND       I T    HAS        B 1:': ENE S TAB LIS H EDT H A'r                                 "A IJ rr H 0 UGH

17     TRE:MOLITE            MAY        BE        AN           AMPHJ BOLE-LIKE                            SU8S'T'ANCft:             SIlCH          AN

1 8    A NAN THO P H Y I. l.I 'I' E,                 'I' HER EAR r:                  N ()     PRE MIS F: S           FOR          ASS U MIN G

19     THAT       TREMOLITE                  IS      LIKELY                   TO     BEHAVE               BIOLOGJ.CALLY                       AS

20     DOT H E         0 THE R      '}' H R E fi;        A. MPH I B 0 L E S"                 AND          'I' HAT    WAS          YOU R

21     VIEW       IN    1972?

22     A.         THAT'S           CORRECT.                         NOW,           A G A IN,         WE' RET A IJ KIN G

23     ABOUT       CRYSTALLINE                       FORM,             OKAY?

24     Q.         BUT       YOU     DID           A C K NOW IJ          ft~   DG E      rr HER EWE R E               ROD SAN D

25     NEEDLES          OFTEN           MIXED                  IN     WITH           TREMOLITE?
                                          (".     S   c he per s     -   C    r   0 S S                             183


    1   A.       YES.        'I' H   E l< E 's    I JON G    N E: E D L E S       1.   N r 'I' •

    2   Q.       ANn AT 'I' H A ']' 'I' J M f:i: YOU NOT E D 'I' HA'1'

    3   "EPIDEMIOLOGICAL SURVEYS OF                                  CHRYSOTILE WORKERS                                 IN

    4   QUEBEC SHOWED                 NO EXCESS OF                  LUNG CANCER.                           A REVIEW OF

    5   PLEURAL MESOTHELIOMA                           IN CANADA ALSO FAII,ED TO FOCUS

    6   ATTENTION ON QUEBEC OR                              ANY OTHER CENTER WHERE

    7   CHRYSOTILE INDUSTRIES                            ARE CONCEN'rRATED?"

    8   A.       'l'HAT'S CORRECT.

    9   Q.       AND THAT VIEW WAS ALSO RELAYED TO THE CHIEF

1   0   D I V I S ION 01:"     HE A L 'I' H       S ']' A N U A R D SOC CUP A T ION A 1J SA F E T Y AND

11      HEALTH ADMINISTRATION MR.                                  GROVER              WRENN       IN 1976.                  IS

12      THAT CORREc'r?

13      A.       RIGH'r.

14      Q.       NOW,    IN 1978                 YOU WROTE TO CAPTAIN                              HURFL~R?


15      A.       HURfo'LER.

16      Q.       WHO WAS WITH THE DEPAR'I'MENT OF NAVY BUREAU OF'

17      MEDICINE AND                 SURG~RY.               IS THA'l' CORREC'l'?

18      A.       RIGHT.

19      Q.       AT THAT TIME YOU ALSO ADDRESSED SOME OF THESE

20      ISSUES ABOUT CHRYSOTILE.                                   IS '1'HA'r CORRECT'?

21      A.       RIGHT.

22      Q.       AND YOU REPORTED TO CAPTAIN                                           HURFLEH             THAT YOU

23      HAD F 0 UNO M E SOT H ELI 0 MA ASS 0 C I ATE D WI '1' H                                    l"~   X P 0 S lJ R E; It' 0

2 4     ASB   EST 0 SOU S 'I' A']' T H F.              PEN C; E:    MT N E        I N E A S T 1<: R N

25      TRANSVAAL?
                                        G.     Schepers          -   Cross                       184


  1   A.        YES.

  2   Q.        T HAT    WAS       A M0 S I 'I' E    MIN £0; ?

  3   A.       YES.

  4   Q.       AND      IT     TS ALSO           IMPORTANT TO KNOW THAT ONLY ONE

  5   OUT OF THREE PERSONS WHO DEVELOP MESOTHELIOMA                                               ~VER


  6   WAS     EXPOSED TO ASBESTOS                          DUST AND THAT THE               INSTITUTE

  7   FOR    PNEUMOCONI()SIS                   RESEARCH HAD WHICH                YOU       HAD

  8   S 'I' ART E 0   HAD A B 11 N 0 AN 'I' E V T 0 1:0; N CEO F 'I' HAT ?

  9   A.       RIGHT.

10    Q.       WE     KNOW TODAY 'THAT WHE'I'HER                       1T'S 100           PERCENT OJ<

11    SOME IJOWER            PERCENT           IT'S CERTAINLY            MORE 'rHAN 33

i/o   PERCENT.           I S    '1' H A 'P   RIG H '1' ?

13    A.       YES.          THEY EVENTUALLY FOUND THE LINK WITH

14    ASBESTOS          EXPOSURE.

1.5   Q.       AND AT THAT TIME YOU                         ALSO REPORTED TO THE

16    CAPTAIN THAT THE NET RESULT OF YOUR                                     15 YEARS           IN THE

17    W0 R K WAS        TO CON V INC E YOU 'T HAT C H R Y SOT I L r~,                      WH I CHI S

18    THE NORTH          AMERlCAN TYPE OF ASBESTOS,                            IS        RELATIVELY

1 9   TN N0 C U0 US,         T H A'r MI:o~ A N S HARM 1J E S S ?

20    A.       NO.       YOU MUS'r READ 'JIHE                    "AS COMPARED TO."

21    Q.       I'LL BE GLAD TO READ                         IT ALL.          "INNOCUOUS          AS

22    COMPARED 'I'O THE AFRICAN AND RUSSIAN VARIETIES?"

23    A.       R I GH'P.


24    Q.       INNOCUOUS MEANS RELAT[VELY HARMLESS?

25    A.       RELA'rrVEIJY HARMl.d!;SS COMPARED                        'TO   'l'Hf-i~   OTHERS.
                                            G.    Sr.hepers             -   <:ross                                    185


  1   Q.       YOU           REP 0 R 'J' E 0     YOU HAD          SEE N       II   P 1J to; N '1' Y    0 J:t'    TJ U NG


  2   CANCERS            IN     ASBkSTOS            WORKERS             AND THAT WAS                            BECAUSE

  3   MOST     ASBESTOS               WORKERS           ARE ALSO EXPOSED TO

  4   CAR C I NO G E N I C MAT E R I A L SOT HE: R 'T' HAN                              AS BE S '1' 0 SAN D ALL

  5   THE CASES               WITH      LUNG CANCERS WERE ALSO CHRONIC                                                     LUNG

  6   SELF-MU'PIIJATORS THROUGH CIGARET'I'E SMOKING?"

 7    A.      RIGHT.

  8   Q.      AND YOU ALSO WROTE THAT                                       "YOU HAD ONE OF THE

 9    I. A R G EST      COL L E C T ION S 0 F             AS B E; S 'P 0 SIS            CAS E MAT E R I A JJ S

10    AVAILABLE?"

11    A.      Y   r~   S •


12    Q.      AND T HAT YOU                      "w 0 U L D    jj f<~   A V A I L. A B IJ E A SAN EX PER '1'

13    WI'I'NESS?"

14    A.      THE            NAVY     WAS        BEING SUED.                 THE DEPARTMENT OF

15    JUSTICE HAD ASKED ME TO WRITE TO CAPTAIN                                                                  HURFLER TO

16    T E I. L HIM HOW              l e o U1J 0        H E I .. P THE N A V Y T F                     P 0 S SIB I.. Y 'r HEY

17    NEEDED ME.

18    Q.       AND THAT WAS                      A SUIT THAT CAME OUT OF THE

1 9   B E R Y I.. L I U M EX PO SUR E             TO    S U H MAR I N E R S ?

20    A.      HMM?

21    Q.      WAS            THAT A SUIT THAT CAME OUT OF                                             EXPOSURE TO

22    BERYLLIUM OR ASBESTOS?

23    A•      BO'j'H.             'J' HER   F;   WAS    A IJ A WSUI T 0 F                  B E R Y l.l.d U M

~4    EXPOSURES               AND THERE WAS                   A LAWSUIT OVER                           ASBESTOS

25    EXPOSURES.
                                     G.       SchE'!pers     -    Cro!';s                        186


 1   Q.      DR.    SCHEPf':RS t              IN   1978 YOU        PREPARED A MEMORANDUM

 2   TO    TH~   CHIEF     B~NEF]TS                DIRECTOR AT THE V.A.                     IN WHICH

 3   YOU    ACKNOWLEDG~              THAT          "YOU WERE AWARE OF THE HEAVY

 4   PROPAGANDA        IN THE NEWS MEDIA                         IN SUPPORT OF THE

 5   CONTENT I ON THA'1' A L [TrrI.E r;X POS UR E TO ASB E S TOS                                      DU ST

 6   MAN Y YEA R SAG 0          C A1\1 C AU SF; ME S 0 'r HE L 10M A? "

 7   A.      VESt    SIR.

 8   Q.      AND AT      rr H Arr'    rl' T   ME YOU     BEL I EVE D '1' HAT T HAT WAS

 9   PROPAGANDA?

10   A.      f   THOUGH'l' SO.                 THERE WERE THINGS                  APPEARING             IN

11   NEWSPAPERS THA'1' WERE WR ITTEN ANONYMOUSLY,                                         WRI'1 l'EN
                                                                                                 lO
                                                                                                              IN

12   BIG CAPTIONS,           AND THEy'RE WRITTEN TO GAJN ATTENTION

13   AND    STIR UP      EMOTIONS.                  I   DON'T THINK THAT'S HOW

14   SCIENTIFIC PROBLEMS                       SHOULD BE SOLVED;                  AND,      IN FACT,

15   THE L ET'rER WA S PROM PTED B ECAU S E 'rH E                           VETr~RAN        S'

16   UNIONS,       V£o;TERANS OF               FOREIGN WARS,           HAD COME TO 'l'HE

17   CHIEF BENEFITS            DIRECTOR WITH                     SlICH A NEWSPAPER

18   STATEMENT SAYING BECAUSE OF' WHAT HE                                   SAID HERE WE

19   WANT YOU TO         PAY COMPENSATION TO                        ALL     PEOPLR WHO HAVK

20   A DLAGNOS T S GJ VEN BY THE] R PR 1 VA'T'E DOCTOR.

21          THE VETERANS                  DIRECTOR THEN ASKED ME WHAT                              f    HAD

22   TO SAY ON THE           SUBJECT AND                 I   SAID     IT IN MY WAY                 AND

23   EXPLAINED THAT THERE ARE                           VARIOUS       VARIETlES OF

24   MESOTHELIOMA AND SOME MAY BE LINKED TO MILITARY

25   S E R VIC E AND     SO ME MAY NO 'r,               AND '1' H A'1' 'I' H r;   'I'   I ME en'
                                           G.       Schepers              -    Cross                                      187


 1       EX P 0    S lJ REO F     T H to: MAN MIG H T                B Ii..: R E L R V A WI' B 1-: C A USE H F:

  2      MTGH'l' HAVE W()RKED                     TN      AN ASBES'I'OS                 INDUSTRY BEFORE 'l'BE

 3       M1 IJ I TAR Y S .EO: R V J C r~ AND,               if HER Io~ tt' () R E:,     H AV E ME S 0 'r H E 1J 10M A

 4       AS      ARE S U J,'f'    0 F    '.P H A 'f' .      OR     HE MAY NOT                      HAV~         BEEN

 S E X P 0 S fo~ D 'r 0          A S B EST 0     SIN M II.J Il' A R Y                 SERV J CE               BUT

 h       SUBSEQU8N'l'LY AND "(,HEN MESO'lIHELIOMA WOUIJIlN' T BE DUE

 7       TO MILITARY SERVICE BUT DUE TO EXPOSURE                                                              AS A PRIVATE

 8       CITIZEN.

 9       Q.          SO THE       QU~STI0N                WAS      WHETHER              THE: VETERANS

10       ADMINISTRATION OR                       NAVY WOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR 'rHE

11       OCCUPATIONAL DISEASE.                                IS     'PH All' CORRECT?

12       A.          YES.

13       Q.          AND YOUR           VIEWS            ABOUT THE RELATIVE                                 INNOCUOUSNESS

14       OF CHRYSOTILE YOU                       SAY CHANGED                   fN       1979 OR

IS       THEREABOUTS?

16       A •         IT HAS       CHANGI'~D              BECAUSF: OF' S'rATfSTI(:S THAT                                     I


17       READ        AND HAS        CHANGED BECAllSE --

L8       Q.          I   DIDN'T ASK THE                     BECAUSE QUESTION.                                   I   ASK}r~D     1'1'

19       CHANGED AROUND 1979?

20       A.         OKAY.

21       Q.         WAS     IT ABOUT 1979?

22       A.          WELL,       ABOUT 1979.                     THERE'S              SOME CRUCIAL                        PAPERS.

23       THERE'S A CONFERENCE IN NEW YORK CITY                                                            AND --

24       Q.          THAT'S       WHA'r             WAS G WI' TIN G T () .                         I      WAN II' E D YOU TO

?oS      .1   DEN ')' I F Y J:r' 0 R Mto~ THE            PAP E R S 'r HA 'r           HF: lJ   P .f.i~   U (: HAN G \<~    YOU R
      II
                                           G.     SchRpers          -     Cross                           18H



  1        MIND 'I'HAT YOU           SAY        INFIJUENCED YOU.

  2        A.      CAN' ']' (; 1 V F:      Y() U 'I' HEN A ME S 0 F '1' HE:                PAP E R S .

  3        THEY'RE       IN THE NEW YORK ACADEMY UF                                 SCIENCE

  4        PUBLICATION            FOUR       OF THAT CONFERENCE IN                            '79.

  5        Q.      YOU MENTIONED TWO FRENCH RESEARCHERS?

  6        A.      YES.       I    HAVE A RECOLLECTION THAT                                 ON~    OF THEIR

  7        NAMES WAS        LA JARTE,                  L-A    J-A-R-T-E.

  8        Q.      WAS    I T I. A .J A R rr fi;        ANn 1. A JAR T E ?

  9        A.      ONE WRITTEN THAT WAY AND ANOTHER                                         PAPER        BY

10         ANOTHER.

1:1        Q.      rr HE SEW E R }<;       B 0 ']' H    1 N V 0 I, U ME       330   0 F'    THE ANN A L SOft'

12         THE NEW YORK ACADE:MY OF SCIENCfi:S?

13         A.      YES,     SIR.

14         Q.      SO    BOTH ARTICLES                   HAD THE          NAME LA JARTE                  IN   IT?

15         A.      NO.     ONE ARTICLE HAD                                    WRI'I"rEN BY THE 'J'WO

16         LA ,1 ART E SAN D 'I' H E 0 'P HER                WR ITT E N BY AN 0 THE R

17         FRENCHMAN.

18         Q.      THA'f'S        WHA'I'     I'M        TRYING TO GET AT.                      WHO WAS          THr~


19         OTHER       FRENCHMAN?

20         A.      I    DON'T KNOW              WHAT H1S          NAME.

21         Q.      BlGNON         SE:BAS'I'IEN?

22         A.      COULD      POSSIBI.Y                BE,   ygS.         I    DON'T RgMEMBER                 IT

23         ANYMORE.

24                         'T'HE     COU){fr:            ARE YOU FINISHED WITH THAT

25         SUB.lEC'!'?
                                               G.        Schepers              -    Cross                        1xC)


  1                              MR.       SCHACH'T'MAN:                     YOUR         HONOR,    THIS       WOULD       ~E


  ~    A      GOOn            PLACE    TO      BREAK.

  3                              THE       COUR']':              1.    THINK        WHAT     WE'LL,      DO    IS    STOP

  4    A'l'    THIS            POIN'1'.        W8 ' J.. I,       R F~ C E S SUN T I IJ       'T' 0 M0 R ROW    M0 R N I N (7 •


  5                              I    WANT       ~O       REMIND             YOU     THAT     WE'RE       ONLY      GOING

  6    TO      BE        HERE        FOR      'PHE       WHOIJ}';        MORNING.            I'D    L.fKE      TO    BE

  7    AB L E          '1'0   GET     OU']'    Or'       'rH E        S I '1'UA 'r I ON    TOMORROW       AIo'T ERNOON

  R    BUT         I     DON'T        THINK          I    CAN          VERY        MUCH.      SO    WE'LL,      ONLY      GO


  9    UNTIL             ABOUT        12:15.              I'M          SCHEDULEDED            TO    BE    IN    TRENTON

10     AT      A       MEETING         AT      ONE        O'CLOCK.

11                                   (JURY       EXCUSED.                    WI'rNESS        EXCUSED)


12

13

14

15

It)

17

·1 R

19

20

21

22

2.1

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                                                                    190




             ).


             3

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             5

             6

             7                 C E R T I    F I   CAT ION

             8

             9                 I,   LINDA SWITZER,   A CERTIFIED

           10     SHORTHAND REPORTER AND NOTARY PUBLIC FOR THE

           1. 1   STATE UF NEW JERSEY,      00 HEREBY CERTIFY THAT THE

           12     FOREGOING IS A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF MY

l...   -   13     S'l'RNOGRA.lJHIC NOTES.

           14

           15

           16

           17         DATE                  LIN A SWITZER,
                                            CERTIFIED SHORTHAND    REf>ORTF~R
           18                               LICENSE NO. Xr00660

           19

           20

           21

           22

           23

           24

           25

				
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