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					       1                                                SUPERIOR COURT                      OF.' Nfo~W JERSEY
                                                        IJ A W ]) T V r S ION -             CAM D 1:'; NCO U N '1' Y
       2                                                DOCKET NO.                L-051429-84

       3

       4   F 1,0 R E N C)4"; H I I, I"     EX 8 CUT R 1 X         0 F                'I'RANSCRIPT          OF
           THE 8STA'l'E Oi-'                                                             TESTIMONY OF
       5   RONALD WIIJLIAM HIld"                                                GERRIT W.              SCHEPERS
           DEC E AS ED AND Fl.O R 8 NeE                     HI L I,
       6   IN HER OWN RIGHT,

       7                                 P IJ A I N 'I' IFF S ,

       8             -vS-
       9   CAREY-CANADA,                 [NC.,       E'l'    AL,

      10                                 llfi:FgNDANTS.

      11

      12                                                                      J U IJ Y    2 5 ,I 9 9 0
                                                                              CAMDEN,            NEW     JERSEY
1.-
      13

      14   ORDERED         BY:           KARl., Me CONNEl,L,                    F~SQUIRE
                                         C HER R Y H 1 I, I.. , NEW             d E R S l:'; y
      15

      16   B   E   FOR          E:
                                         H 0 NOR A B I, E:     SAM U E 1,       L.       SUP N I C K,     J. S . C •
      17

      18   A   P   PEA          RAN          C   E S:

      19                                 KARL      MC       CONNELL,            ESQUIRE
                                         ATTORNEY            FOR        THE     PLAINTIFFS
      20
                                         NATHAN SCHACHTMAN, ESQUIRE
      21                                 AT'l)ORNEY FOR THE DEFENDAN'I'S


      22
                                                             LINDA        SWITZER,               C.S.R.
      23                                                     CERTIFIED               SHORTHAND            REPORTER
                                                             1, [ C 1'; N SEN o.          XI 0 0 6 6 0
      24

      25
  1                             I   N D E X

      WI'l'NESS                               D   c      RD      RC


  3   GERRIT W.    SCHEPERS
          BY MR.   MC CONNELL                            55
  4       BY MR.   SCHACTMAN                                     68

  5

  6

  7

  8



10

11

12

1.3

14                       E X H I     BIT S

15    NUMBER              DESCRI P'I'ION          I D•    EVD.

16    D-)'8              ARTICLE      330         43

17

18

19

20

21

),2


23

24

25
                                                                                                         .3


         1                                   MORNING SESSION

         2                      'r H E!; CO U R T :        MR.     SCHACHTMAN,          YOU MAY

         J   PROCF;ED.

         4                      MR.     SCHACH'l'MAN:               THANK YOU,          YOUR    HONOR.

         5   (WITNESS,          DR.    SCHEPERS,                PREVIOUSLY        SWORN,       RESUMES

         6   S'1'AND)

         7

         8   CROSS      EXAMINATION             (CONTINUED)

         9   BY MR.       SCHACHTMAN:

        10   Q.       DR.     SCHEPERS,          GOOD MORNING.

        11   A.       GOOD MORNING,              SIR.

        12   Q.       ONE OF THE rrHINGS                    YOU     MEN'rIONI'~D     YESTERDAY       AND
L----
        13   YOU TALKED ABOUT ON DIRECT EXAMINATION WAS THE USE

        14   OF ELEC'1'RON MICROSCOPY.

        15            DO YOU        RECAIJIJ     rrHJ:o~    DISCUSSION?

        16   A.       THERE WAS          SOME DISCUSSION,                    YES.

        17   Q•       AND YOU MEN T ION E D 'r H A'T' A']'                  20, 000 MAG N I F 1 CAT ION

        18        AND THAT'S THE WAY A SCIENTIST USUALLY REFERS                                          TO

        19   20,000 x?

        20   A.       YES.

        21   Q.       YOU ARE         NOT    SEEING ALL THE BIOLOGICALLY

        22   IMPORTANT FIBERS                AND      FIBRILS.              IS   ']'HA'T' CORRECT?

        23   A.       THAT'S CORRECT.

        24   Q.       DOCTUR,         THE    LATENCY             PERIOD      FOR MESOTHELIOMA            [S

        25   '1' Y PIC A IJ L Y V E R Y 1J 0 N(; .         IS    'J'HA'r   CORRF:cro?
                                 G.     Schepers          -   Cross                    4



 1   A.      YES.

     Q.      'l'YPICALI~Y       20 OR MORE             YEARS,       CORREC,)'?

 J   A.      YES.           THAT APPLIES TO ADULTS.                      WITH CHILDREN,

 4   OF COURSE,             IT'S NUT                 .iT'S MUCH LESS.

 5   Q.      SO FOR GREATER THAN OR EQUAL TO ABOUT                                   20 YEARS?

 6   A.      T   CAN'T READ           I'l'.

 7   Q.      I'M SORRY.

     Q.      LATENCY GREATER THAN OR                          ~QUAL    TO 20 YEARS         FOR

 9   ADULTS?

10   A.      FOR ADULTS,          Yf';S.

11   Q.      DR.     SCHEPERS,         I      WANT TO GO BACK TO THAT NEW

12   YORK CONFERENCE             IN 1964 FOR A MINUTE.                       AT THAT

13   CONFERENCE YOU COMMENTED UPON WHAT YOU HAD OBSERVED

14   IN 1949       IN THE       PENGE MINE             IN SOUTH AFRICA?

15   A.      YES.

16   Q.      WHEN YOU DID COM MEN ']' U P 0 N rf                      I N 1 9 6 4,   YOU NOT E D

17   THAT YOUR 1949 SURVEY HAD                         "FOUND A NUMBRR OF

18   EMPLOYEES         FROM THE ASBESTOS MILLS WHO HAD SYMPTOMS

19   OF MARKED         PLEURAL SCLEROSIS."                     1ST HA'I' COR R E C T ?

20   A.     YES.

21           NOW,      YOU ALSO MENTIONED THAT                        "SOMETIMES       IT WAS

22   V E R Y T H I C K AND R A D I 0          DEN S E<~ U P 'I' 0   A N INC H T H J C K . "      IS

23   THAT RIGHT?

24   A.      R 1 GH 'I' •

25   Q.     AND AT THArp          T]Mfo~       YOU     NOTl':D THAT,        BACK     IN 1949,
             II
             !


                                                  G.    Scheper!':             -      ero!':!':                        5



        1         "WE HAD No'r YF.T BF:EN AIJERTED '1'0 cfHE                                       POSSIBILITY OF

        2         P LEU R A L ME S 0 'r H 1'; L 10M ADO S E S . "

        .1        A.         RIGHT.

        4         Q •        AND,       DOC T () R,    (N T HAT 1 9 7 2                S '{ MP 0 S I UM 0 N T A I. C ,

        5         I'D LIKE TO GO TO THE VERY END OF THAT SYMPOSIUM

        6         WHERE YOU GAVE YOUR                    SUMMARY.                     AND 0 N E 0       :Eo'    THE

        7         VERY FIRST STATEMENT YOU MADE                                       IN SUMMARY                IN 1972 WAS

        8         T HA'r THE           "p H Y S [0 C HEM I   CAL R E L AT ION S HIP S                   0      F THE

        9         SILICATES HAVE BEEN REVIEWED.                                        AND ALTHOUGH 'rHgRE

       10         ARE SUPERFICIAL RESEMBLANCES,                                       THERE ARE,                INDEED,

       11         SIGNIFICANT PHYSIOCHEMICAL STRUCTURAL DIFFERENCES

       12         BETWEEN THEIR                RESPECTIVE MOLECULES?"

'---
       13         A.         YES,       SIR.

       14         Q.         AND ANOTHER              STATEMENT YOU MADE                           IN    SUMMARY IS

       15         THAT       "TALC AND TREMOLITE ARE BIOLOGICALLY RELATIVELY

       16         INERT SUBSTANCES AND THIS CONTRASTS                                              SHARPLY WITH THE

       17         MARKED PATHOGENICITY OF AMOSITE AND CROCIDOLITE.

       18         CHRYSOTILE OCCUPIES                    INTERMEDIATE POSITION BUT ITS

       19         BIOLOGICAL PROPENSITIES ARE CLOSER                                              TO THOSE OF TALC

       20         AND TREMOl.ITE?"

       21         A.         YES   t    STR.

       22         Q.         AND ONE OF YOUR OTHER                          STATEMENTS                  IN SUMMARY WAS

       23         THAT       "LUNG CANCER HAS                  BEEN DEFINITELY ASSOCIATED

       24         EPIDEMIOLOGICALLY WITH EXPOSURE TO CROCIDOLITE.

       25         THE R ~~    r S N0       E V IDE NeE       'I' H A'I'   'P A L c:    0 I<   T REM 0 J) I     'I' E
                                    G.    S~hepers           -    Cross                          6



  1    PO SSE SSE S THE        H   TO 1,0 G I   C A IJ   PRO PEN S   1"1' Y   TO    J NDue fi;


  2    NEOPLASTIC       LESIONS.                THERg      IS ALSO SOME DOUBT AS 'fO

  3    THE ROLE OF CHRYSOTILE                       INCARCINOGENICITY EVEN THOUGH

  4    THAT STUDIES SUGGEST CHRYSOTILE MAY FOSTER THE

  5    DEVELOPMENT OF LUNG CANCER UNDER CERTAIN

  6    CIRCUMSTANCES.               OTHER         STUDIES         FLATLY CONTRADICT THIS

  7    EVIDENCE       SO THAT 'PHE              ISSUE STILL SEEMS UNRESOLVED."

  8            IS THAT YOUR              STATEMENT?

  9    A.      YES,    SIR.

10                     MR.     MC CONNEld.,:               T'M     SORRY.           WHA'r YEAR WAS

11     THAT?

12                     MR.     SCHACHTMAN:                 1972.

13     BY MR.    SCHACHTMAN:

14     Q.      DOCTOR,       WHEN        YOU WERE WITH THE UNITED STATES

15     GOVERNMENT DURING THAT TIME,                              WAS THE GENERAL

16     SERVICES ADMINISTRATION SELLING RAW ASBESTOS?

17     A.      WAIT A MINUTE.                   FIRST OF          ALL,    WHAT TIME AND

18     WHAT    IS THE    LAST QUESTION?

19                    MR.      MC     CON N E I..IJ :      OBJECTION,              YOUR HONOR.

20     MAY WE BE HEARD?

21                    THE COURT:                 OBJECTING TO THE QUESTION OR

22     ARE YOU ANTICIPATING                               WANT TO BE HEARD AT

2 .i   SIDEBAR?        I'LT,       HEAR     YOU AT SIDF.:BAR.

24                    MR.      MC CONNF:I.IJ:              RET .. EVANCE       REAIJIJV;         YOUR

25     HONOR.
                              G.   schepers       -   Cross               7



 1                  MR.    S C HAC H']' MAN :    YOUR HONOR,   ] N 'rHE

 ~   INTEREST OF TIME

 3                  THE COURT:          THERE'S NO       QU~STION   PENDING AT

 4   THE PRESENT TIME.

 5                  MR.    MC CONNEl,L:          'I'HERE IS.

 6                  MR.    SCHACHTMAN:           THERE IS A QUESTION.

 7                  THE COURT:          THERE'S NO QUESTION PENDING.

                    MR.    SCHACHTMAN:           I'LL WITHDRAW IT.

 9                  THE COURT:          DOCTOR DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THE

10   QUESTION.          THERE'S NO QUESTION PENDING.

11                  MR.    SCHACHTMAN:          ALL RIGHT.     I'LL MOVE ON,

12   YOUR HONOR.

13   BY MR.   SCHACHTMAN:

14   Q.   DOCTOR,         YOU AGREE THAT CROCIDOLITE IS A

15   TERRIBLY POTENT CAUSE OF MESOTHELIOMA?

16   A.   YES   I   I    AGRER WITH 'l'HAT.

17   Q.   AND AS A TERR1BLY POTENT CAUSE OF MESOTHELIOMA,

18   THE PRESENCE OF CROCIDOLITE IN A STUDY OF WORKERS

19   WOULD BE A CONFOUNDER              FOR     ASSESSING THE EFFECT OF

20   THOSE WORKPLACE EXPOSURES?

21   A.   THAT IS 'rRUE.

22   Q.   AND I         THINK YOU EXPLAINED IN YOUR DIRECT

21   EXAMINATION THAT A CONFOONDING VARIABLE IS ONE THAT

24   COULD SKEW THE RESULTS OF THE STUDY AND                    ~SSENTIALLY
                                   G.   Schepers       -   Cros~             8



  1    A.      'f' HAT    [S   COR R F: cr   .

  2    Q.      fJ 0   C TOR,   D() YOU KNOW SIR RIC HAR D DOI.1J?

  3    A.      I      DON'T KNOW HIM.            I   KNOW WHO HE   IS.

  4    Q.      AND HE IS A VERY EMINENT EPIDEMIOLOGIST?

  5    A.      YES,       HE IS.

  6    Q.      DOCTOR,         YOU TOLD US YESTERDAY THAT THE

  7    IMPORTANT VARIABLE               IN LOOKING AT EPIDEMIOLOGICAL

  8    STUDY       IS THE      NUMB~R        OF DEATHS THAT HAVE OCCURRED AND

  9    HAVE BEEN ANALYZED.

10             IS THAT         CORR~CT?


1 1.   A •     THAT'S CORRECT.

1?     Q.      AND IF A STUDY HAS MORE PEOPLE IN                    fT REGISTERED

13     IN THE COHORT AND THEY HAVE BEEN FOLLOWED FOR A LONG

14     PER I 0 D 0 F TIM E,        YOU T Y PIC Ard, Y GET A LOT 0 F D E A'r HS

15     THAT CAN BE ANALYZED?

16     A.      RIGHT.

17     Q.      NOW,      THE NUMBER OF DEATHS FROM ALL CAUSES                    IS

18     USED AS A POINT OF REFERENCE AND IT'S OFTEN MADE THE

19     DENOMINATOR IN A FRACTION TO ANALYZE THE EFFECT OF A

20     GIVEN SUBSTANCE ON A POPULATION?

21     A.      RIGHT.

22     Q.      AND WHAT         YOU WOULD PUT IN THE TOP OF THE

23     FRACTION WOUIJD BE THE NUMBER OF DEATHS OF THE

24     PARTICULAR KINO THAT YOU WERE STUOY1NG.                           IN OTHER

25     WORDS,         THE NUMBER OF MESOTHELIOMA DEATHS?
                                            G.     Schepers        -         cross                   9


       1    A.       RIGHT.

        2   Q.       AND THIS PRACTION WOULD BE REFERRED TO AS THE

       3    PROPORTIONATE MORTALITY RATIO?

       4    A.       RIGH'I'.

       5    Q.       AND THIS WOUI,D BE DIFFERENT                                          I'M GOING 'ro

       6    ABBREVIATE THAT P.M.R.                          HAVE YOU SEgN THAT

       7    ABBREVIATION IN THE MEDICAL LITERATURE?

       8    A.       YES.

       q    Q.       AND THE OTHER                 EPIDEMIOLOGIC CONCEPT YOU TALKED

      10    ABOUT WAS OF RELATIVE RISK ABBREVIATED R.R.?

      1 1   A.       RIGHT.

      12    Q.       AND THAT WOULD BE SIMPLY THE NUMBER OF OBSERVED
L--
      13    OVER THE NUMBER OF EXPECTED?

      14    A.       RIGH'r.

      15    Q •      NOW,   WHEN S 0 ME BOD Y S 'I' UD I               (t;   SAN E P 1 D )4; MI 0 LOG [ C

      16             A GROUP OF' WORKERS                    IN EPIDEMIOLOGIC WAY                     FOR

      17    DE AT H S,    THE Y       '1' Y PIC   AI. L Y WlfJ L CO J) 1';       '1' HE   DE AT HS BY

      18    INTERNATIONAL CLASSIFICATION DISEASE SYSTEM?

      19    A.      THAT IS HOW THEY DO IT.

      20    Q.      AND     IT'S GONE THROUGH SEVERAL REVISIONS?

      21    A.      YES.

      22    Q.      AND AS        I    UNDERSTAND IT,                  IT IS         PUT OUT BY THE

      23    WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION?

      24    A.       RIGHT.           IT'S        BEEN IN EXISTENCE SINCE ABOUT 1960

      25    I     THINK IS WHEN IT CAMElNTO BEING AND                                       IT HAS       BEEN
                                 G.    Schepers             -    Cross                       J0



  1    REVIVED EVERY TEN YEARS,                     I   WOULD         SAY.

  2    Q•    AND    I F YOU      L 00 K A 'I'     'I' HIS       C LAS S I F' I C A'l' rON S Y S T EM,

  3    THERE WIJJIJ      BE    A NUMBER          SPECIFICALLY FOR                   PLEURAl,

  4    MESOTHELIOMAS?

  5    A.    THERE       IS NOW.           THERE WAS             NONE BEFORE.            T


  6    BELIEVE 1985 IS THE FIRST TIME                              IT APPEARED.

  7    Q.    AND THERE WILL                BE    A SPECIFIC NUMBER                   FOR CANCER

  8    OF THE     PERITONEUM AS WELL?

  9    A.    THERE       IS NOW       IN    '85.        FORMERLY THERE WAS                    NONE.

10     THEY JUST CODED A1JL                PERI'J'ONEAI. TUMORS                AS    JUST CANCER

11     OF THE ABDOMINAL CAVITY OR WHATEVER.

12     Q.    AS    FAR    BACK AS          THE S[XTH             INTERNATIONAL

13     CLASSIFICATION,           THE NUMBER 150 WAS                       USED FOR

14     ESOPHAGEAL?

15     A.    YES.

16     Q.    AND THE NUMBER                151 WAS USED FOR STOMACH?

17     A.    YES.

18     Q.    AND THE NUMBER                152 WAS USED FOR SMALL

19     INTESTINE?

20     A.    RIGHT.

2J     Q.    AND 153 WAS USED                   FOR COLON?

22     A.    RIGHT.

23     Q.    AND 154 WAS USED F'OR RE;C'fUM?

24     A.    RECTUM,          YES.

:(.5   Q.    AND 155 THROUGH 159                   INCLUDED             A VARTETY OF
                                 G.    Schepers                -    Cross                     J1



 1   DIFFF;RENT ABDOMINAl, SITES?

 2   A.      RIGHT.

 J   Q.      IT'S       KIND OF       SCIENTIST WHO'S                      INVOLVED      IN

 4   CLASSIFYING DEATH CERTIFICATES                                     BY DISEASS CATEGORY

 5   IS   CAIJLED A NOSOLOGIST?

 6   A.      YES.

 7   Q.      THAT'S        N-O-S-O-L-O-G-I-S-T?

 8   A.      RIGHT.

 9   Q.      AND AN        EPIDEMIOLOGIC                  STUDY WILL OFrJ'EN EMPJ,OY A

10   NOSOLOGIST TO SPECIFICALLY CLASSIFY THE CAUSES OF

11   DEATH OBSERVED             IN THE STUDY?

12   A.      SOME DO,          SOME DON'T.

13   Q.      DOCTOR,          THE GROWING TIME OF                         A TUMOR.       A TUMOR

14   THAT    [S      A MESOTHELIOMA TUMOR,                          THAT    IS   DIAGNOSED,

15   LET'S     SAY,      ON A G[VEN DAY;                   DIDN'T JUST COME               INTO

16   EXISTENCE THE DAY BEFORE.                             T       HAVF;N''!'          LE'r     ME

17   REP HR A SET HE Q lIE; S 'P ION.

18           THERF;      IS   A CER'l'AIN DOUBI,ING TIME                         FOR MOST KINDS

19   OF TUMORS?

20   A•      YES.

21   Q.      AND      SOMF; TUMORS GROW FASTER THAN OTHERS?

22   A.      YF;S.

23   Q.      AND MF; S 0 'I' H fU, 10M A I S          A    r' A S '.r   G ROW I N G TUM 0 R ,


24   CORRECT?

25   A.      D F;   PEN D SON T HF: 'r Y p   ~~   .        THE FIBROUS MESOTHF;LIOMA
                                     G.    Schepers             -     Cross                           1),



 1    GROWS SLOWLY.              rrHF; EPTTHEI..IAIJ AND SARCOMATOID GROW

 /.   FAST.

      Q.      IN A FAST GROWING TUMOR,                                 IN ORDER TO GET TO

 4    SIX,    SEVEN,       EIGHT CENTIMETERS WOULD                                  HAV~       TO HAVE

 5    BEE NTH ERE F' 0 RAe 0 U PI. E 0 }<' YEA R SAT LEA S T ?

 6    A.      YOU MEAN --

 7    Q.      GOING BACK IN TIME,                        THE TUMOR WOULD HAVE BEEN

 8    THERE FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS AT A MUCH SMALLER SCALE?

 9    A.      COUPLE OF YEARS WOULD ONLY BE TRUE FOR FIBROUS

10    MESOTHELIOMA.              FOR EPITHELIOID AND SARCOMATOID THE

11    AVERAGE SURVIVAL                fS      18      MONTHS.

12    Q.      I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT SURVIVAL.

13    A.      i   KNOW,       BUT --

14    Q.      GOING BACK FROM THE TIME OF DIAGNOSIS.

1S    A.      YES.

16    Q.      SURVIVAL 'rAIJKS                ABOUrl' FROM TIME OF DIAGNOSI S

17    UNTIL THE TIME OF DEATH?

18    A.      YES.

19    Q.      I'M GOING BACK FROM THE TIME OF DIAGNOSIS

20    BACKWARDS.          THAT TUMOR WILL HAVE BE THERE FOR A

21    COUPLE OF YEARS?

22    A.      NO,      SIR.      I    T H INK I '1' W U1, D HA V E BEE NON L Y FOR A
                                                     0


23    MONTH OR SO.

24    Q.      A MONTH?

25    A.      yft;S.     BEe A lJ S I:S    Cf' H F;   TUM 0 R       (.; R () W S   RAP I   D IJ Y •   AND   IF
                             G.    Schepers   -   Cross                13


     IT'S A PLEURAL PARIETAL TUMOR,                IT WOULD    INVOLVE THE

 2   NERVES     IN THE INTERCOSTAL SPACES AND PRESENT ITSELF

 3   WIT H P A I NAN D THE PER SON WILL I, IKE L Y GOT 0           ADO C TOR

 4   AND THEN GET AN X-RAY.

             BUT SOMETIMES THEY'LL GO TO THE DOCTOR AND                      TH~


 6   DOCTOR WILL SAY TO HIM,            OH,   YOU JUST HAVE A LITTLE

 7   INTERCOSTAL MYOCY'l'ES AND laVE HIM SOME PAIN PILLS.

 8   BUT THROUGH TRACING THAT HISTORICAL                   INT~RVENTION       OF

 9   THE DOC 'I' 0 R S,   Y() U CAN T R ACE B AC K THE 0 RIG I N 0 F THE

10   TUMORS     INVOLVING NERVES        PRETTY     FAST.

11          NOW,    THAT DOES NOT APPLY           WH~N    THE TUMOR STARTS

12   IN THE LUNG SIDE,            IN THE VISCERAL PLEURA,        BECAUSE

13   THAT IS     INSENS[TIVE AND        IT CAN GET TO BE FAIRLY

14   LARGE SIZE BEFORE            IT WILL COMPRESS ENOUGH THINGS FOR

15   SYMPTOMS TO APPEAR.

16          THE THIRD WAY THE TUMOR WILL MANIFEST IS                    IT

17   WILL HAVE A PLEURAL EFFUSION FEATURE TO IT.                       AND THE

18   TUMOR ANNOUNCES         ITSELF BY THE PERSON SUDDENLY ON ONE

19   DAY,   SOMETIMES AT A PARTICULAR TIME OF THE DAY,

20   FINDING THAT HE'S            SHORT OF BRRATH.         HE WASN T SHOR'J'
                                                                   I




21   OF BREATH AN HOUR AGO;            NOW HE'S     SHORT OF BREATH.

22   THAT'S BECAUSE HIS CHRST CAVITY FILLED WITH FLUID

23   AND COMPRESSING THE LUNG.

24          NOW,    THAT DRAWS ATTENTION TO ITSELF AND THE

25   DOCTOK MAY DIAGNOSE THAT HE HAS                A PLEURAL EFFUSION
                                     G.    Schepers          -    Cross                14


 1      AND       NO'l'    KNOW 'PHAT     I'r' S A CANCER            AT 'J'HF; BACK OF'      IT.

 ;;>,   ONLY WHEN THFr; DOCTOR                  PUTS    IN       A NI--":EDIJE AND EX']'RACTS

 .3     S () ME    F IJ U I D WI L J... THE CAN C E R 0 USN A '[' U R}<; 0 F THE E F F US ION

 4      BECOME CLEAR.

 5      Q.         ,JUST --

 6      A.         BUT THROUGH THOSE MECHANISMS YOU CAN TRACE BACK

 7      THESE TUMORS            FAIRLY PRECISELY AND                   IT'S A MATTER OF

 8      MONTHS            USUALLY BETWEEN THE START OF THE TUMOR AND

 9      THE DIAGNOSIS.

10      Q.         LET'S TALK ABOUT              PLEURAL MESOTHELIOMA BECAUSE

11      YOU MENTIONED THAT.                     WHEN YOU HAVE A PLEURAL

12      MESOTHELIOMA,             'PHE    Fr;FFUSION YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT                        IS

13      F IJ U I DIN THE        P IJ E U R A JJ SPA C E ?

14      A.         RIGHT.

15      Q.         THAT CAN OFTEN FIRS'l'              PRESI-~NT       I'fSELF A YEAR,               TWO

16      YEARS        BEFORE D[AGNOSIS?

17      A.         THERE CAN BE           FLUID MANIFESTATIONS                IN THE CHEST

18      FRO M THE A S B E S 'r 0 S [S AND 'I' HAT                J SAC 0 MM0 N   S I GN 0 F

19      ASBESTOS.             WHEN THE FIBERS               BEGIN TO WORK THROUGH

20      INTO THE           PLEURA,       THEY    IRRITATE THE             PLEURA AND      YOU

21      G E 'I'   P IJ E U R ALE F F U S ION S QUI 'r E F R E QUE NT L Y .       THAT HAS

22      NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MESOTHELIOMA.                                 AND THE R j<~   ,   S

23      NO

24      Q.         THOSE ARE       BENJGN EFFUSIONS?

25      A.         WELL,      THEy'RK      NOT REALLY BENIGN BECAUSE THEY
                                   G.    SchApers              -    Cross                            15



 1   I ND T CAT F; THE P ~ R SON HAS A S B E S ']' 0 SIN                     HT   S   J.• lJ N G .        BH'T

 2   THE Y , R E NOT NF; 0 P LAS 'r I C          l!~   F fo' US ION S .     'l'HEY'RE

 3   MECHANICAL EFFUSIONS.

 4   Q.      THE DETERMINATION                                 THE ABILITY TO TELL

 5   WHETHER THE TUMOR IS THERE WILL TURN ON WHETHER THE

 6   TUMOR'S GOT'I'EN IJARGE ENOUGH TO AFFECT A NERVE.                                                     IS

 7   THAT WHAT YOU' KE 'I'ELLING US?

 8   A.      THAT IS          I~   IT ARISES              IN THE PARIETAL PLEURA.

 9   Q.      IF IT'S          IN THE VISCERAL PLEURA,                         IT MAY BE MUCH

10   MORE HLOW TO BE DIAGNOSED BECAUSE IT WON'T AFFECT

11   NERVE ENDINGS?

12   A.      RIGHT.

13   Q.      THE SAME THING WOULD BE TRUE OF PERITONEAL

14   'l'UMOR S ?

15   A.      PERITONEAL TUMORS BEHAVE DIFFERENTLY.                                              THERE'S

16   MUCH MORE SPACE IN THE ABDOMEN AND SO SIZE                                               IS NOT

17   WHAT DETERMINES WHETHER YOU NOTICE THE TUMOR.

18           IT IS WHEN THE TUMOR BEGINS TO BLOCK A PORTION

19   OF THE INTESTINAL SYSTEM BY STRANGLING,                                          THEN THE

20   PERSON WILL BEGIN TO HAVE SYMPTOMS OF DYSPEPSIA,                                                       NOT

21   BEING ABLE TO MANAGE HIS                           FOOD OR           SOMETHING OF THE

22   SORT.         SOMETIMES THERE'S CONSTIPATION OR                                    DIARRHEA.

23   S 0 ME S Y MP ']' 0 M8    l, I Kfi: '1' HA'r .       IT       UO~SN'T    PRODUCE PAIN AT

24   THE EARLY STAGE.

25   Q.      AND     80   'rH8     TUMOR       WOUI.D          HAVE TO GF:T TO A SIZE
                                   G.   Schepers -          Cro~s              16


  ]   WHERE IT WOULD BLOCK OFF ONE OF THE TUBES                           IN   TH~


 2    BODY?

 3    A.      YES.

 4    Q.      DR.    SCHEPERS,          MR.    Me CONNELL SHOWED YOU SOME

 5    ARTICLES ON YESTERDAY'S                    LUNCH BRgAK.

 6    A.      ON?

 7    Q.      YESTERDAY'S            LUNCH BREAK.

 8    A.      DID    I    DO?

 9    Q.      MR.    MC CONNELL SHOWED YOU SOME ARTICLES ON

10    YESTERDAY'S LUNCH BREAK.

11    A.      NO.        WE SAT DOWNSTAIRS AND ATE A POUND CAKE AND

12    DRANK SOME COFFEE.                  I   DIDN'T SEE HIM AT ALL.

11    Q.      YOU DIDN'T SIT IN THAT ROOM OVER THERE WITH

14    MR.   Me CONNELL?

1.5                      MR.    MC CON N E IJ I, :     YESTERDAY MORNING?

16    A.      I   CAME AND SAT THERE WHEN I                    WAS FINISHED.

17                       MR.    MC CONNEl,L:           YESTERDAY MORNING.

18                       THE COURT:           JUs'r A MOMENT.

19    BY MR.      SCHACHTMAN:

20    Q.      ON THE LUNCH BREAK,                    DR.   SCHEPERS,   DID YOU SPEND

21    ANY TIME       IN THAT ATTORNEY                 CONFERENCE ROOM WITH

22    MR.   MC CONNELL?

23    A.      BRIEFLY.           ABOUT TEN MINUTES OR               SO BEFORE WE

24    CAME IN YESTERDAY MORNING.

25    Q.      AND MR.          Me CONNELL HAD THIS EASEL               PAD AND HE
                                G.     Schepers   -   Cross           17



 1   WAS DRAWING A CHART?

 2   A.   YOU MEAN THOSE CHARTS?

 3   Q.   THAT YOU      SAW YESTERDAY.

 4   A.   I   SAW THEM          Y~STERDAY      MORNING.

 5   Q.   YOU HAD THEM YESTERDAY MORNING?

 6   A.   YES.       HE HAD DRAWN THEM BEFORE IN THE MORNING.

 7   SHOWED ME WHAT HE HAD                DON~.


 8   Q.   J   SEE.     SO       I'l'   WASN' 'I' l,UNCH BREAK BUT EARLIER

 9   YESTERDAY MORNING THAT YOU HAD SEEN THE CHART?

10   A.   'l'HAT'S CORRECT.

11   Q.   AND AT 'rHAT 'J'IME DID HE ASK YOU TO ACTUAIJJ,Y

12   PHYSICALLY REVIEW THE ARTICLES TO DETERMINE WHETHER

13   THE CHART WAS CORRECT?

14   A.   I   HAD ALREADY DONE THAT FOR HIM.

15   WHICH ARTICLES HE WAS GOING TO ASK ME QUESTIONS ON

16   AND ASKED ME TO LOOK AT THEM,                    OKAY?

17   Q.   WHEN DID HE DO THAT?

18   A.   I   DID THAT THE NIGHT BEFORE.

19   Q.   AND DID YOU MEET WITH HIM THE NIGHT BEFORE?

20   A.   DID WE?           I    THINK SO.        I   THINK WE WERE TOGETHER

21   FOR A BRIEF     PERIOD,           YES,   ABOUT AN HOUR.

22   Q.   NOW,   YOU WERE NOT THE AUTHOR OF ANY OF THOSE

23   STUDIES.    IS THA'l' RIGH'l'?

24   A.   NO.    THOSFt; ARE OTHER             PEOPL,E.

25   Q.   AND YOU oro NOT PARTICIPATE                     IN THE PREPARATION
                               G.    Schepers     -    Cross                      J8



 1   OF THE DATA OR ANALYZING OF THE DATA?

 2   A.   THAT IS CORREC'r.

 3   Q.   AND ONE OF THE STUDIES THAT HE HAD UP ON THE

 4   CHART WAS     BY DRS.          ALLISON AND CORBETT Me DONALD.                        DO

 5   YOU RECALL THAT?

 6   A.   RIG H'I' •

 7   Q.   THOSE ARE TWO WELL-RESPECTED EPIDEMIOLOGISTS                                    IN

 8   THE MEDICAL COMMUNITY?

 9   A.   WELL,        THEY'RE CANADIANS AND ENGLISH.                           CORBETT

10   IS A CANADIAN AND ALLISON IS ENGLISH GROWN.

11   Q.   THEY WERE AT MC GILL UNIVERSITY FOR MANY YEARS?

12   A.   CORBETT IS AFFILIATED WITH MC GILL.                               ALLISON IS

13   AFFILIATED WITH MEDICAL SCHOOL IN ENGLAND.

14   Q.   AND THE Me DON A1J D STU DIE D T HR E E AM (0; RIC AN

15   FACTORIES FOR THE PREVALENCE OF ASBESTOS-RELATED

16   DISEASE?

17   A.   RIGHT.            THAT WAS ABOUT 1980 SOMETHING.

18   Q.   AND THE Y PUB l, ISH E DIN T H fo; B R I '1' ISH          ,J 0   URN A 1, 0 F

19   INDUSTRIAL MEDTCINE IN 1982,                     '83   AND   '84?

20   A.   RIGHT.

21   Q.   NOW,    DO YOU KNOW WHICH                         BACK UP.            THEY

22   STUDIED A FACTORY              IN CONNECTICUT,          OTHER ONE IN

23   LANCASTER,        PENNSYLVANIA AND ONE IN SOUTH CAROLINA,

24   CORRECT?

25   A.   I   DON'     'f   KNOW T HA'r   I ']' WAS 1, ANCAS T E R .        I    THOUGH'£'
                                      G.    Schepers        -     Cross                   i 9



 1   IT WAS MANHEIM.                   BUT MANHEIM IS NEAR ENOUGH TO

 2   LANCASTER.

 3   Q.      IT'S          IN LANCASTER COUNTY.                     AND DO YOU KNOW

 4   WHICH       STUDY        IT WAS THAT WAS UP ON THE BOARD

 5   YESTERDAY?                    WHICH    PLAN?

 6   A.      I    DIDN'T CHECK THAT.                       I'D HAVE TO SEE IT.                  IT

 7   WOULD GO BY THE DATE.

 8   Q.      ALL RIGHT.                WIT H0 UTI. 0 0 KIN GAT IT,                 CAN YOU T E IJ L

 9   ME WHICH          STUDY THIS            WAS?

10   A.      UNLESS           IT HAS THE DATE I                   CAN'T TELL YOU.

11   Q.      DOCTOR,               WHY DON' 'II YOU TAKE A LOOK A'r THE

12   ARTICLES YOU HAVE                     IN FRONT OF YOU.               ARE 'l'HOSE ,]'HE

13   ARTICLES YOU HAD WITH                        YUU YESTERDAY?

14   A.      YES.          THESE ARE THEY.

15   Q.      AND       IS THERE AN ARTICLE THERE BY Me DONALD?

16   A.      THERE'S ONE HERE THAT I                             JUST FOUND CALLED

17   MC DONALD,            FRYE,       WOOLLEY AND MC DONALD.                       THAT IS

18   DATED       '83.

19   Q.      ALL RIGHT.                AND THE STUDY OF THE SOUTH CAROLINA

20   PLANT?

21   A.      THIS          IS THE STUDY OF THOSE THREE FACTORIES THAT

22   YOU'VE JUST BEEN TALKING ABOUT.

23   Q.      ALI. RIGHT.               THAT WAS THE PRELIMINARY STUDY WE

24   DO NOT HAVE MARKED FOR                        IDENTIFICATION,             I    THINK.

25   A.      WEld ..   r    ['}'    MUST    SH:   ANO'I'H.E!:R    STUDY   THA'l'    YOU   MAY
                                        G.   Schepers -           Cross                     20


 1        HAVE.

 2        Q.      MR.      MC CONNELL ASSURES                   ME THE OTHER ONE            IS    IN

 3        '1'HERE.

 4                          MR.    MC    CONNELl,:          BOTH ARTICLES ARE THERE.

 5        YOU DIDN'T HAVE THE THIRD ONE WITH YOU,                                 REMEMBER?

 6        THAT    YOU HAD MARKED.               YOU     DIDN'T HAVE YOUR MARKED

 7        D E FEN SEE X H I B rer SAN D TON I, Y HAD                 'r WOO F   ']' H E S 'I' U D JE S

 8        SO HIS       PACKET DOESN'T           INCLUDE ALL THREE STUDIES.

 9                          MR.    SCHACH']'MAN:            I    UNDERSTAND.

10        BY MR.       SCHACHTMAN:

11        Q.      DR.      SCHEPERS,         DO YOU    HAVE THE           STUDY OF THE

12        SOUTH CAROLINA            PLANT BEFORE YOU?                     I   JUST WANT TO

13        KNOW    IF    IT'S      IN THE PACKET.

14        A.      YES.       THIS       IS   ONE A PLANT WAS              STUDIED.

15        Q.      IS    IT THE      PRELIMINARY STUDY THAT YOU HAVE FROM

16        BEFORE OR THE ONE THAT WAS                        PUBI.. ISHED L.A'[,ER?

17        A.      IT'S NOT SO TITLED.                  T'1' SAYS       "DUST EXPOSURE AND

I B M 0 R T A Jj I 'I' YIN AN AM E R [ CAN C H R Y SOT I LET E X fr' 1 I. E P I. ANT .                   II




19        Q.      ALL. RIGHT.            I   THINK    IT'S DATED                   IT'S       VOLUME

20        40 0 F THE       B R I TIS H .J 0 URN A i. 0 FIN D US T R I A L ME D I C I N E

21        PAGE    .'361?

22        A.      YES.

23        Q.      ALL RIGH'I'.           'r HIS 1 S   0 F       THE SOU T H CAR 0 LIN A

24        PLANT,       CORRECT?

25        A.      YES,     CHARt.ES'[,ON.
                                    G.     SChRpRrS                  -     Cross                                 21


 1   Q.      AND rI'HI!':>     IS     'rHf~       SAME       Pl,AN'I' 'THA'T' WAS                     S'rUDI8D              BY

 2   DEMENT,       MR.      DEMENT OF THE                    UNIT~D               STATES            PUBLIC

 3   HEALTH      SERVICE,           CORRECT?

 4   A.      f   S (j S P E C '}' 'I' HAT '[' HA'1'         ISS 0,             y t<~   S.

 5   Q.      AND THE REASON THEY HAVE DIFFERENT DEATHS                                                                IS

 6   THAT THEY HAD DIFFERENT ENTRY TIMES                                                    AND THEY HAD

 7   DIFFERENT CRITERIA                    FOR LENGTHS OF                              SERVICE TO BE

 8   INCLUDED         IN THE COHORT?

 9   A.      'rHA'r    I   S SO.

10   Q.      AND SOT H E            S 'r U DY L 0 0 KSAT A G R (] U P 0 F P EO P l ..i.:

11   THAT ARE         PUT TOGETHER DIFFERENTLY                                         BUT THEY'RE ALL

12   OUT OF THE SAM},;              Pl,ANT?

13   A.      YES.

14   Q.      AND      I NTH AT        S 'r U 0 Y    MR.         DE MEN' ('                         IN HIS          STUDY

15   H E DID NO 'T' NOT F; THE USE 0 fo' ANY T H T NG B U'r C H R Y S 0 'I' I L E .

16   IS THAT CORRECT?

17   A.      I   CAN'T VOUCH               FOR THAT BECAUSE                                 I   HAVEN'T READ

18   IT FOR A WHILE,                BUT I          THINK HIS                   FOCUS            WAS ON

19   CHRYSOTILE.

20   Q.      AND,      DR.    Me      DONALD AND COLLEAGUES                                        NOTED THAT

21   CROCIDOLITE HAD                BEEN USED AT THAT                                  PLANT?

22   A.      YES.          SHE STATED              IN 'rHE               PAPER THAT AT ONE rrIME

23   MANY YEARS A(;O CROCIDOIJI'l'E                             YARN WAS                    IMPORTED AND

24   USE D [N 0 N EPA R 'I' () ft' 'r H p~            }<'   AC 'r 0 R Y AND THE NTH A 'I'                          WAS

25   s'ropp ED.        so    'P HAT      0 N E;    HAS       '}' 0       IN r' E: R     li'R 0 M   'I' H A 'I'   'r HA"]'
                                   G.     Schp.pers     -   Cross                       22


 1   THE    PREDOMINANT EXPOSURE OF THE GREAT MAJORITY OF

 2   PEOPLE WAS            ONLY    TO CHRYSOTILE.

 3   Q.     AND,       INDEED,          THERE WAS ALSO           SOME     EXPERIMENT USE

 4   OF AMOS I TE AT 'rHA'!'              PLANT?

 5   A.     DOES       SHE SAY THAT?

 6   Q.       'M ASK I N(; YOU.

 7   A.         DON'T KNOW.                I'M     NOT AWARE OF         IT.       I'VE       BEEN

 8   TO SOUTH CAROLINA AND                    I'M No'r AWARE OF 'I'HEIR USING

 9   AMOSITE.

10   Q.     DOC TOR,         I    WI J, [, REF' E R YOU '1' 0    THE L E J:o' 'I' - HAN 0

11   COLUMN OF         PAGE       362    IN THAT ARTICLE            AND DOES          IT SAY

12   "IN THE LATE 1'150s A VERY                      SMAIJL     AMOUNT ()F AMOSITE

13   WAS USED EXPERIMENTALLY                       IN CARDING,        BUT THIS         WAS

14   SOON   ABANDONI'~D?"


15   A.     OKAY.          THEN]         MISSED THAT.

16   Q.     AND WITH RESPECT TO THE CROCIDOLITE YARN,                                        THAT

17   WAS USED FROM THE EARLY 1'150S UNTIL 1'172?

18   A.     YES.

19   Q.     AND       IT WAS       PROCESSED UPON RECEIPT AT THE                            PLANT?

20   A.     RIGH'r.

21   Q.     DR.       MC   DONALD        NOT£t~D   'rHAT THE CAUSES OF'              DEArrH

22   WERE CODED BY A               SINGL~        QUALIFIED NOSOLOGIST?

23   A.     YES.

24   Q.     A1\1 D,    DOC 'I' 0 R,     ']' H~ AIf '1' H0 R SAL SON 0 T E T HA ']' THE I R

25   FINDINGS         AGREE CLOSELY WITH THOSE                    FROM      ANOTHER          STUDY
                                      G.    ~Cheper5       -    Cross                   23



 1   IN    THIS    PLAN'(, AND CONJ.<'IRM THA'1' M£o;SO'l'HEL,IOMA                     IS

 2   R ARE L Y ASS 0 C I A'J' E D Wfir H C H R Y S 0,]' 1 L hEX P 0 SUR E ?

 3   A.      rrHA'l'    IS    CORREC'l'.           THEY FOUND ONLY          ONE CASE,          IN

 4   FACT.        BUT     IP YOU TAKE              2,000       PEOPLE WORKING          IN THE

 5   FACTORY,          AND YOU         FIND ONE CASE OP MESOTHELIOMA,

 6   COM PAR ING THAT WI'1'H THE                    EXPEC'I'ED     RA'I'E: OF

 7   MESOTHELIOMA WHICH                     IS    ZERO,    THEN THAT'S          AN    EXTREMELY

 8   LARGE FINDING.

 9   Q.      AND       IT WOULD            BE AN    EXTREMELY       SMALL PROPORTION

10   MORTALITY RATIO?

11   A.      OH,       YES,     OF COURSE.             IT'S ONLY ONE CASE SO                  IT

12   WOULD    BE       L,OW WHEN           YOU    DO THOSE PROPORTIONATE

13   MORTALITIES.

14   Q.      NOW,       DOCTOR,            YOU    ALSO COMMENTED UPON                A STUDY BY

15   DR.    MURIEL NEWHOUSE                  IN 1989?

16   A.      YES.         THERE WAS ONE              IN THAT,       YES.

17   Q.      DO YOU HAVE THAT ARTICLE                           IN FRONT OF you?

18   A.      YES,       IT'S     HERE.

19   Q.      NOW,       IN TABLE ONE ON                PAGE 177,        COULD YOU REFER

20   T () T HAT,       DOC 'r 0 R ?

21   A.      YES,       OKAY.

22   Q.      THE MORTAI,ITY                 PATTERNS AFTER TEN YEARS                   FROM

23   FIRST EMPLOYMENT.                      IS THA'[, CORREC'[,'?

24   A.      YF~S,      RIGH'I'.

25   Q.      AND 'T'HE NUMBER                OF    IH:A'PHS    FROM AL,L CAUSES             AMONG
                                       G.    s~hepers    -      ~ross                   24


  1    MEN WAS          2,055?

  2    A.      ARE YO II I, 0 0 K 1 N G ArI' 'T' H E     Eo'   IRS ']' COL UMN NOW?

  .3   Q.      FOR      MEN FOR ALL CAUSES.                     2,055    DEATHS ANALYZED,

  4    CORRECT?

  5    A.      RIGHT.

  6    Q.      AND FOR WOMEN                 THERE WERE         522?

  7                         MR.   MC    CONNEl,!,:      I'M SORRY.             WHAT    PAGJ:i~?


  8                         MR.   SCHACHTMAN:           PAGfi: 177.

  9                         MR.   MC CONNELL:           THANK YOU.

10     BY MR.       SCHACHTMAN:

11     Q.      DID      1    Rfo~AD    THA'r CHARrj' CORRECTLY?

12     A.      WELIJ --

13     Q.      DID      I    READ      PI'   CORRECTLY?

14     A.      I    GET      DIF~ERENT         FIGURES.          I   CAN RECOGNIZE THE

15     2,055       FOR MEN,           BUT FOR THE WOMEN              T HAVE     522.

16     Q.      THAT'S WHAT              J    SAID.

17     A.      OH,      IS THAT WHAT YOU SAID?                         OKAY.

J8     Q.      AND      BY    TH~      WAY,    DR.   MURIEL NEWHOUSE SOMETIMES

19     KNOWN       AS   MOLLY NEWHOUSE?

20     A.      THAT'S         HER      FI~ST    NAM~.


21     Q.      IS A VERY WEld,-RESPECTED                       EPIDEMIOLOGIST?

2),    A.      YES.

),.3   Q.      AND      SHE NOTED THAT THERE WERE 1.3                      MESOTHEL(OMAS

24     REPORTED?

25     A.      RIGHrp.
                                                         G.      schepers -                   Cross


        1    Q.         AND      OF THOSE                       13 THOSE WERE                     ALL          PLEURAL


        2    MESOTHEI.IOMA                  t     CORRECr?

        3    A.         'l'HEY      WERE                ALI..    PLEURAL,S             t    yr.;S.


        4    Q .        AND      0 F        '1' H to:    R fo; M A I N IN G       TWO,           IN       0 NE        INS TAN C E         '1' HE


        5    DIAGNOSIS              WAS           UNCERTAIN.                      IS        THAT          WHAT           SHE    REPORTED?


        6    A.         YES.

        7    Q.         AND      TN         THE          OTHER       ONE          THE        OCCUPATIONAL


        8    EXCUSE         ME,        OCCUPATIONAL                           HISTORY             OF        THE          SUBJECT          WAS

        q    NO '1'   WE L IJ - ft~ S TAB J,r S H 1:0; 0 ?

      10     A.         RIGHT.

      11     Q.         NOW,        THERE                WAS      CROCIDOLITE                     USED              AT    THIS     PI,ANT?


      12     A•         I   BEL I EVE:                  THE REI S             MEN T ION           0 F        [T      S () MEW HER .1:';         I N

I--
      13     'I' HER E P 0 R 'I' •


      14     Q.         INDEED;                 A'P      PAGE      178          IN         THE    RIGHT-HAND                    COLUMN


      15     DR.      NEWHOUSE                  WHITES            13 DEATHS                  WERE           ATTR1BUTED                TO

      16     P LEU R A I.     M J:o:; S 0   'r H fn,     10M A,      oj   1    () F'       WH I C HOI"              W0 H K E R S   WHO              HAD

      17     CON T ACT        WERE              FOR        c ROC I DOL T '1' ):I;           ASB   ~:   S '1.' 0 S    D URI N G     'I' H J:o~

      1 Ii   PERIOD         IT      WAS           IN       lJSE    IN         '1'HE        FACTORY.                  IS    THA'r


      :19    CORRECT?


      20     A.         YES.


      21     Q.         AND      AT         PAGE           179,      THE         VERY            LAST          PARAGRAPH,                 DR.


      22     NEWHOUSE            NOTES                  THAT      "'PHIS         EXTENDft~D                 FOl,I,OW-UP            Ot"          A


      23     COHORT         OF     OVER                 13,000 WORKERS                       CONFIRMS                    OUR    PREVIOUS


      24     CONCLUSIONS                    THAT           UNDER          GOOD             ENVIRONMENTAL                       CONDITIONS


      25     CHRYSO'l'ILE;             ASBESrpOS                  PRODlfCTS                 CAN        BE      MANUFAC'rURfi~D
                                                   G.         schepers                -    Cross                                     2h



  1   WI '[' H      NOD E 'l' I:'; err A BI, F;               F; x C E SSM 0 R TAL 1 'I' Y • "

  2                 'I' H A '1'   's       WHAT      [) R.          N g WHO U S F~         REP 0 R '1' E DIN                   1989?

  3   A.            YES.               THAT'S             A       STATEM~NT                THAT            SHE        MAKES,            BUT


  4   Q.            YOU           DISAGREE?


  5   A.            T H A'r         TS      A     V E Rye 0 M P l. T CAT E D                     CON C E P T            TO

  6   UNDERSTAND                       BECAUSE                --


  7   Q.            DOC'I'OR,               DO     YOU            DISAGREE?


  8   A.            SHE'S              TALKING                THERE            ABOUT          THE          REDUCED              DUST


  9   COUNTS             'l'HAT            HAVE      COME            INTO         BEING              AT       THE       TIME.


10    FACTORIES                    ARE                        AIR         IS    ENCLOSED                   SO      THE         PEOPLE          ARE


1°j   EXPOSED               VERY            LITTLE.                  AND        TF        YOU        T A K F.      A II L      THO S E       I WI' 0


12    CONSIDERATION,                             THEN             HER       STATEMENT                    IS       CORRECT;

13    NAMELY,               IF         YOU       REDUCE              THE        DUST          DOWN            TO      AS       LOW      AS


14    POSSIBLE,                    THEN          YOU          CAN         WORK        WITH           THIS          MATERIAL.                   AND


15    IF         YOU     COUNT              THE      DEATHS                 WHILE          THEY            ARE        WORKING           r    IN

16    OTHER            WORDS           r    THE      ACTIVE                 WORKERS              BEF'ORE              'PHEY' VE


17    RET IRE D,                  '1' HEN       'I' H 0 SEA R E             R~; L A T I VEt. Y             1.,0 W •


18                 BUT            NOW,          'I' RUE       E P IDE M 1 0 LOG Y                W0 U I. 0         R E QUI R E          '[' HAT


19    YOU         SAY       NOW            WE' R E        NOT        GO I N G         TO      DO         0 NL Y       'r H E    F ELL 0 WS


20    WHO         ARE       WORKING                A'r        THIS          FACTORY.                     WE'RE          GOING           TO     SgE


21    WHAT         HAPPENS                  TO     THEM            AFT~R          THEY           LEAVE             THE         FACTORY


22    AND         RET IRE              AND       WHAT             0 I D     'I' HEY       DIE        FROM?                  AND      THEN


23    'I' H E:    '1' RUE         S TOR yeO M E S                  0 WI' .        BECAUSE                  WE      KNOW         ABOUT          TH~



24    LONG         LATENCY                  PERIOD.                  W£I:      K NOW       '1' H A 'I'     THE;       (. A 'no: N C Y


25    PER I 00            I S      PRO 1.0 N G E n            I    MAD 1<:      fJ 0 N G fo~ R   I       T H H;    LOW E R        T H f1;    D US 'I'
                                 G.    Schepers      -    Cross                  27


 1   EXPOSURF:.          SO,    TH~REFORE,       OBVIOUSLY THE MORTALITIES

 2   AND RISKS         ARE GOING TO SHOW             UP NOT WHILE THE PEOPLE

 3   ARR WORKING,            WHICH     IS    WHAT SHE WAS         STUDYING ON THE

 4   CHART --

 5   Q.      DR.      SCHEPIo;RS

 6   A.      -- THEY SHOW UP                LATER.

 7   Q•      P LEA S E S H() W MEW HER 1:'; I N 'I' HIS       A R 'r T C 1. E SAY S T HA'l'

 8   DR.    NEW Ha USE 1,1 MIT E D H E }{ 0 B S E R V A'P ION S T () P EO P L £0; WH()

 9   ACTUALLY CURRENTLY ARE WORKING.

10   A.      T   REA 0    THE WHO LEA R T T C 1. E MEA N IN G 'r HAT.

11   Q.      BUT 'lOll CAN' '1'        PO I N'r '['0 A SINGLE S ENTENC E?

12   A.      IT SAYS                  'rITLF. SAYS       "MORTAldTY STUDY OF

13   WORKERS MANUFACTURING."                    THAT MEANS         PRESENT TENSE

14   WORKERS NOW MANUFACTURING.                      IT DIDN'T SAY                    IF

15   SHE SAID         IT WAS GOING TO BE A STUDY OF THEIR WHOLE

16   IJIFE'l'IME EXPERIENCE,                SHE WOULD HAVE SAl)) 'I'HE          D"'~ATH


17   M0 R T A JJ I T Y STU D [ E S 0 F P EO P L, E WHO () NC E W0 R KED WI 'r H

18   CHRYSOTILE.             THAT'S HOW]         WOULD UNDERSTAND ENGLISH.

19   Q.      LET'S GO OVER THIS TOGETHER.                         IN THE METHODS

20   SECTION WHERE DR.                NEWHOUSE DESCRIBES SHk             SAYS     IN

~1   1941    THE      FACTORY STARTED AN ALPHABETICAL FILING

22   SYSTEM OF         ITS     WORK    FORCE RECORD1NG DATES OF BIRTH,

23   DATES OF STARTING WORK AND LEAVING                           EMPLOYMENT BUT

24   OMITTING JOB TITLES?

25   A.      YF.;S.
                                          (y.         S c h e per s      -    C   r   0 S S




  1    Q.      AND ']' H E POP U1, A'r I () N S ']' U [) I E I) N () W CON SIS 'r S 0 fr'

  2    1 .3 , 450     SUB lJ E C T SF] R S 'J'                EM P 1,0 Y E D B "'~ T WJ:o~ E: N 1 941    AND

  .3   1979.          IS THAT RIGHT?

  4    A.      RIGH']'.

  5    Q.      AND DOESN'T SHF.:                                     DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND                       HER

  6    STUDY TO HAVE FOLLOWED UP                                     PEOPLE WHO               HAV~    LEFT

  7    EMPLOYMENT?

  8    A.      NO.         I    nON' T SEE T HA '}' 'I' HER E .

  9    Q.      TELL ME WHERE YOU SEE THAT SHE DID NOT.

10     A.       T     DON'T SE;f!; 'f'HA,['                   IN   HERE.              SHE HAS NOTED            SOME

11     PEOPLE HAVE              DIED AND,                     THEREFOR~,               THkY    LEFT

12     EM PI, 0 Y ME WI' rr H R 0 UGH                 DE AT H;       B U'l' S H fi: HAS        NO '(' F 0 L 1,0 WED

13     THE ONES WHO RETIRED                              TN A NORMAL WAY,                      BECAUSE HER

1 4    T () TAL. CO H0 R T       0 14'    P EO P LET H A'}' SHE' SIN C 1:" U DE DIN HER E

15     IS QUITE A LOT                    LARGER 'L'HAN 'rHE NUMBERS OF DEA'rHS

16     THAT SHE REPORTS                       TN THE NUMBER                       OF' CASES       SHE REPORTS.

17     SHE TALKS           ABOUT,             I       THINK,         11,000 PEOPLE.

18     Q.      13,450?

19     A.      YES.            AND THEN SHE REPORTS ON ONLY                                       2,055 MEN

20     AND 522 MEN              (SIC);                SO,      OBVIOUSLY,                SHE'S ONLY GOT THE

21     DATA FOR THE ONES THAT ALREADY DIED,                                                   BUT SHE DOESN'T

22     HAVE THE DATA FOR THE REST OF THEM.

23     Q.      WELI,       NOW,          S0   M fo~    () F    'r H() S E P l<: 0     P LEW 0 U L D   HA V E

:? 4   s 'r ART E D    W0 R KIN GAS                   EAR I. Y     AS    19

25     A.      I      THINK 1911.
                           G.   Schepers    -   CrOf'l5           29



 1   Q.      1911?

 2   A.      YES.

 3   Q.      AND THEY WERE      IN THE COHORT?

 4   A.      YES,    THOSE WERE   INCLUDED.        SHE INCLUDED

 5   EVERYTHING FROM 1911         FORWARD.

 6   Q.      AND YOU'RE NOT SUGGESTING THAT THE PEOPLE WHO

 7   STARTED WORKING IN         ]911    WERE STILL WORKING IN 1989

 8   WHEN SHE PUB LIS H ED HER AR 'r 1 C LJ E?

 9   A.      NO.     THOSE ARE THE ONES THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN

10   LISTED UNDER THE DEATHS BECAUSE THERE WERE 2,500

11           600    PEOPLE WHO ARE DEAD.

12   Q.      THOSE PEOPLE WOULD HAVE DIED ANY TIME BETWEEN

13   1941 AND THE TIME SHE CUT OFF HER FOLLOW-UP OF THE

14   STUDY,    RIGHT?

15           ANOTHER STUDY MR.         MC CONNELL ASKED YOU TO

16   COMMENT UPON WAS THE STUDY BY THOMAS.                DO YOU RECALL

17   THAT?

18   A.      WHICH ONE?

19   Q.      THOMAS.

20   A.      THOMAS?

21   Q.      THOMAS WAS THE FIRST NAMED AUTHOR?

22   A.      THAT WAS ONE OF THEM.

23   Q.      AND WHEN YOU WERE ASKED A COUPLE YEARS AGO IN A

24   CASE PENDING IN       ATLANTIC COUNTY WHETHER         YOU WERE

25   FAMILIAR WITH THE STUDY,            YOU SAID NO?
                             G.   :.;chepers       -   Cross                  30


 1   A.    1 DIDN'T        KNOW THOMAS THEN,             YES.          SAID

 2   LA'I'ER --

 J   Q.    AND WHAT'S        THE DATE OF THE             STUDY?

 4   A.    ~rHIS    '82.

 5   Q.    1982.      AND    YOU TRY TO STAY UP WITH THE MEDICAL

 6   LITERATURE      IN THIS ARgA?

 7   A.    OH,     SOMETIMES      J   READ OLD THINGS AND SOMETIMES

 8   PEOPLE GIVE ME THINGS TO READ                     WHICH    I    HADN'T READ

 9   BEFORE.

10                  MR.    MC CONNELL:            I'LL STIPULATE         I'VE

11   ALREADY INDICATED YESTERDAY THAT                     I    SHOWED HIM THE

12   DEFENSE EXHIBITS AND             I    ASKED HIM TO REVIEW THEM.               I

13   DIDN'T SAY THAT

14                  MR.    SCHACHTMAN:            THERE'S NOTHING CALLED

15   FOR FROM MR.         Me CONNELL RIGHT NOW.

16                 THE COURf[':           YOU MAY      POI NT J T A 1.1, 0 UTON

17   REDIRECT,     MR.     MC CONNELL.

18                 MR.     MC CONNEI,L:           YES,   SIR.

19   BY MR.    SCHACHTMAN:

20   Q.    THE THOMAS        STUDY        IS    PUBLISHED      IN WHAT JOURNAL?

21   A.    BRITISH JOURNAL OF                  INDUSTRIAL MEDICINE.

22   Q.    AND     IS THAT A PROMINENT JOURNEL THAT DEALS WITH

23   QUESTIONS      INVOLVING ASBESTOS-RELATED                      DEC~MBER?


24   A.    YES,    SIR.

25   Q.    DO YOU SUBSCRIBE TO THE BRITISH JOURNAL OF
                                        G.    SChRpRrS          -    CrOSA                                       3J



 1   INDUSTRIAL MEDJCINE?

 2   A.        N0   I    I    DID N I 'I' HAVF. Ir () .         WHfL~           I     WORK~D                  FOR THE

 3   UNITED         STATES GOVERNMENT MY                        OFFIC~              WAS          NEXT DOOR TO

 4   THE LIB R A R Y              SOl    CO U [J D   GO    R J G H'f    'f' 0       '11 HE:      J   0   URN A L S

 5   THERE.

 6   Q.        DID YOU MAKE                  r',' A REGULAR PRAC'['ICF. BACK IN 1982

 7   TO GO      INTO THE LIBRARY AND                        READ        TH~           BRITISH JOURNAL

 8   OF    INDUSTRIAL MEDIClNE?

 9   A.        AS OFTEN AS               I    COULD.        I       HAV~        AN       ARRANGEMENT

10   WITH THE            t.TBRARIAN ']'HEY WOULD                     BRING            'ro        MY          AT'T'ENTION

11   ALL   ARTICLES THAT WERE                        ENVIRONMENT                                     HEAvrH

12   ISSUES         WERE MENTIONED                  AND THEY           D1DI           BUT            L DIDN'T

13   ALWAYS         HAVE TIME TO GO                  IMMEDIATELY                I     PICK UP THE

14   JOURNALS            BECAUSE         I    HAD    LOTS OF THINGS TO DO.                                         AND

15   SOMETIMES               THEY WOULD ACCUMULATE AS                               A STACK OF THINGS

16   AND   I    WOULD             BEGIN TO READ            SOME OF THEM.                                 BY    TH~N


17   ANOTHER            STACK       HAD ARRIVED.

18   Q.        DOCTOR         I   THF. TITLE OF THE ARTICLE WOULD                                              LET     YOU

19   KNOW THAT               IT DEALT WITH ASBESTOS.                                JS        '1' H A 'I'     COR R E C 'r ?

20   A.        YES.

21   Q.        AND THE KIND OF                  FACTORY THAT WAS                              BEING

22   INVESTIGATED WAS                    A CHRYSO'PfI,E ASBESTOS Cf<:MEN'I'

23   FACTORY,            CORR EC'l'?

24   A.        YES.           IT WAS         DOWN    IN CARUfFF,                    ENGLAND.

25   Q.        'PHERE        WERE TWO                     EXCUSE; ME.                    I S         I 'I'    YOUR
                                 G.   Schepers      -   cross


 1    U NLl E R S TAN n T NG T H T S J S THE CAR D T F F' S '1' UD Y?

 2    A.      :1    'rHINK SO.

 .1   Q.      I S 1'1 "1' T HIS THE S '1' U DY ?

 4    A.      YES.      IT SAYS THEY WORKED IN AN ASBESTOS CEMENT

 5    FACTORY NEAR           CARDrF~,     ENGLAND.        J   HAVE A

 6    RECOLLECTION LIKE THAT.

 7    Q.      DOCTOR,        THE VERY FIRST SENTENCE DOES SAY THAT

 8    "IN 1964 MEMBERS OF THIS UNIT WHICH                        INCLUDED DR.

 9    ELWOOD REPORTED MORTALITY EXPERIENCE OF 1,261

10    WORKERS WHO HAD WORKED IN AN ASBESTOS CEMENT FACTORY

11    NEAR CARDIFl"."

12            DOCTOR,        THIS     IS NOT THE STUDY ON CARDIFF.

13    A •     IF IT'S NOT I'LL TAKE YOUR WORD FUR                       IT.

14    Q.      r.OOK AT THE DISCUSSION ON 274 RIGHT-HAND

15    COLUMN.

16    A.      OKAY.

17    Q.      DO YOU SEE WHERE            IT SAYS THEY COMPARED

18    MORTALITY OF THE WORKERS WITH THE                             IN SOUTHEi:AS'P

19    WALES        WHERE THE FACTURY WAS            LOCATED?

20    A.      WHERE ARE YOU?             WHICH PAG8?

21                     MR.    SCHACHTMAN:          274.

22                     MR.    MC CONNELJJ:         'rHANK YOU.

23    BY MR.        SCHACHTMAN:

24    Q.      DO YOU SEE WHERE 1'1' Dr SCUSSES                  HOW THEY

25    CALCULATED THE RELATIVE RISK BY COMPARING IT WITH
                                G.    S~hApArs        -    Cross                   33


  ]   MORTALITY OF SUUTHEAST WALES?

      A.   SOUTHEAST WALES              IS WHERE CARUIFF              IS.

  3   Q.   IS YOUR OPINION THAT CARDIFF                        IS    IN WALES?

  4   A.   CARDIFF IS CAPITAL, CITY OF WALES.

 5    Q.   AND THIS        IS THE SAME STUDY AS THE ONE THAT

 6    ELWOOD PUBLISHED IN 1964?

 7    A.   NO,    IT'S NOT THE SAME STUDY.                         THIS    IS THE STUDY

 8    THEY REPORT ON THIS JOURNAL ON THAT DAY.

 9    Q.   DOCTOR,       THE TWU PLEURAL MESOTHELIOMAS WERE

10    REPORTED OU'l' OF THIS FACTORY                  I    WHEREVER       r'p   WAS,    ALl,

11    RIGHT?

12    A.   YES.

13    Q.   AND THE AUTHORS NOTED THAII' AT THIS VERY

14    FACTORY,    WHEREVER           IT WAS,      CROCIDULITE ASBESTOS WAS

15    USED BETWEEN 1932 AND 1935.                         IS THA'I' CORRECT?

16    A.   YES.

17    Q.   AND BOTH THE WORKERS WHO DEVELOPED PLEURAL

18    MESOTHELIOMA HAD WORKED AT THE FACTORY DURING THAT

"19   TIME PERIOD 1932 '1'0 1935 WHEN                      CROCIDOLIT&~         WAS USED

20    AT THE FACTORY?

21    A.   THAT ]S CORRECT.               THAT'S WHAT THEY STATE.

22    Q.   NOW,   MR.      MC CONNEIJL ALSO ASKED YOU                      ABou'r THE

23    GARDNER STUDY.

24    A.   YES.     T H A 'T'   IS COR R E C 'P   •


25    Q.   AND THE LEAD AUTHOR                 fS     MARTIN GARDNKR?
                                    G.      Schepers            -   Cross                      34



  1   A.        I   DON'T HAVE A COPY OF                         IT,    SIR.      COULD YOU          LEND

  2   ME ONE?

  3   Q.        SURE.

 4    A.       YES,      SIR.

 5    Q.       THE     LEAD AUTHOR              IS       DR.    MARTIN GARDNER WHO                  IS A

 6    WELL-RESPECTED BIO-STATISTICIAN?

 7    A.       YES.

 8    Q.       AND 'I' HIS      WAS       A1, S 0       A C H R Y SOT I LEA S B EST 0 S C F: MEN T

 9    FACTORY,         CORRECT?

10    A.       YES.

1.1   Q.       EXCEPT FOR           A SHORT              PERIOD OF TIME             IN 1976 WHEN

12    AMOSITE WAS           USED --

13    A.       YES.

14    Q.       -- THE USE OF AMOSITE                           IN   1976 WOULD            PROBABLY

15    NOT HAVE AFFECTED THE MORTALITY BECAUSE                                         IT WAS        USED

16    SO IJA']'E OR SO CLOSE '1'0 'I'H},: TIME OF 'rHE CUTOFF OF THE

17    STUDY?

18    A.       RIGHT.

19    Q.       IN OTHER WORDS,                 IT WOULD NOT HAVE                    BEEN ENOUGH

20    LA TEN C Y BET WEE N 1 9 7 6 AND 'r HE TIM E THE S T (J D Y WAS                                DON F;

21    TO SEE ANY MESOTHELIOMAS                             COMING FROM THAT SMALL USE

22    OF   AMOST'J'E.         1ST HAT RIG H'r?

23    A.       THAT WOULD           BE VERY              UNLIKELY.

24    Q.       AND     SO THIS        REPRESENTS                A CHRYSOTILE ASBESTOS

25    C E MEN 'I'   F A C 'I' 0 R Y AND    1   '.I'   H INK 'T' HE C H A R 'f' R 1:'; F I E C T S T HAT
                                                                                      J
                                             (~.     s ~ h e per s           -     C   r () s s


 1   '1.' HER l<~       WAS     0 N f<:   ME S 0 '1' HE fJ TOM ARE P () R 'T' EDT NTH E S 'ti U D '{ ?

 2   A.             T H A '1'   's HOW I           R I<: C A IJ L 1']'   t       Y I'~ S .

 3   Q.             rT WAS           A PI, E U R A1, ME SOT H ELI: 0 MAt                           COR R E C '1.' ?

 4   A.             I    BELIEVE SO.

 5   Q.             AND A'T' PAGE 729                  t    IT NOTES                               RIGHT-HAND

 6   COLUMN FIRST PARAGRAPH t                                  THAT THERE'S                          BEEN ONE DEATH

 7   FROM PLEURAL MESOTHELIOMA                                      IN THE STUDY AND THAT THIS

 8   DEATH TOOK                   PLACE WITHIN SEVEN YEARS OF THE MAN'S

 9   FIRST DA'l'E OF' EMPIJOYMEN'J' WITH THE COMPANY.

10   A.             YES.

     Q.             AND AT           P AGE     731     t    1, E F' 'I' - HAN D COL UMN t                  '.r HEY NO '1' E

12   T HAT          'I' HIS     S H0 R '1' A M0 U N'I' 0 F TIM E 0 F' '1.' H E 0 B S E R V F: 0

13   MESOTHELIOMA AFTER                              THE MAN'S                   START-UP               DATE WAS         IN

14   THEIR MIND SUCH THA'l' 'rHEY COULD NOT RELA'L'E 'l'HE

15   MESOTHELIOMA TO THE MAN'S                                      EMPLOYMENT AT THE                                 FACTORY.

16   A.             I    NOTICED THAT DISCUSSION.                                            BUT YOU RECALL OUR

17   DISCUSSION OF YESTERDAY ABOUT THE                                                        BELL-SHAPED CURVE

18   AND BIOLOGICAL                        PHENOMENON ARE SPREAD ALONG THE BELL-

19   SHAPED CURVE AND WE                               KNOW THAT YOU                         CAN HAVE

20   ALTHOUGH THE MODE OR                                  MEDIAN OF THE                          BELL     IS    FOR

21   MESOTHELIOMA,                        ABOUT 30 YEARS,                          '['HE TAIL END ON 'lIHIS

22   SIDE CAN GO DOWN AS                               LOW AS            TWO YEARS AND AT THE

23   orrHto~R           END     IT CAN GO UP TO 60 YEARS                                          FOR    LATENCY

24   PERIOD.

25   Q.             THE ANSWER               TO MY QUESTION?
                              G.    Schepers   -     Cross                             36



  1   A.      TN THlS CASE THEY DO OBSERVE THAT THE MAN'S

  2   OCCUPATIONAL        INVOLV~MENT      AT THEIR          FACTORY WAS                SEVEN

  3   YEARS    BEFORE HE GOT THE MESOTHELIOMA.                         BUT THEY

  4   DON'T CLARIFY WHAT HE DID BEFORE AND THERE                             IS         NO

  5   SHOWING CLEARLY THAT HE HAD WORKED IN ANOTHER TYPE

 6    OF FACTORY        INVOLVING ASBESTOS           BEFORE THAT.

 7    Q.      DOCTOR

 8    A.      UN I, E S S I' M MIS SIN G SO MET H IN G .

 9    Q.      PERHAPS YOU ARE.          LET ME SHOW YOU PAGE 73J

10    FIRST OF ALL,        BEFORE I     SHOW YOU THAT.                 THERE WAS A

11    CORONER'S       INQUEST IN THIS CASE AND IT WAS DISCUSSED

12    IN THE ARTICLE,         CORRECT?

13    A.      RIGH'f.

14    Q.      AND THE CORONER RETURNED AN OPEN VERDICT IN THE

15    CASE?

16    A.      YES.

17    Q.      WHICH MEANS THAT THEY DID NOT RELATE THE

18    MESOTHELIOMA TO THE EMPLOYMENT AT THIS WORKSITE.

19    A.      NO,    THEY DIDN"P.       WE'RE NOT ALL THAT POSITIVE.

20    THEY JUST POINT OUT THAT THERE WAS THIS                            PROBLEM OF

21    THE SHORT EXPOSURE HISTORY,              BUT THEY DIDN'T IDENTIFY

22    A CAUSE FOR THAT MESOTHELIOMA.                     THA'I' LEAVES 'l'HE

23    FACTORY AS THE CAUSE.

24    Q.      LET ME READ TO YOU THE FOLLOWING PASSAGE IN

),5   THIS ARTICLE,        DR.     SCHEPERS.       QUO 'T' E r   "   H T SMA I   1\1
                             G.    Schepers -   Cross                  .37


   1    LIFETIME EMPLOYMENT WAS AS A K.LLN             FIREMAN IN SEVERAL

   2    BRICKWORKS FOR OVER A TOTAL OF OVER              30    YE!:ARS."

   3    THAT'S    WHAT IT SAYS.

   4    A.    YES.

   5    Q.    AND    IT GOfo':;S ON TO SAY THAT,      QUOTE,    "DURING THIS

  6     PERIOD HE WAS RECORDED AS WORKING ON THE WET PART OF

  7     THE PROCESS AND SHOULD NOT HAVE EXPERIENCED

   8    PARTICULARLY HIGH EXPOSURE TO ASBESTOS FIBERS                      IN THE

   9    CHRYSOTILE PIJANTS."

10      A •   YES.

11      Q.    AND    IT GOES ON TO SA Y,      QUOTE,    "IT I S ALSO

12      UNLIKELY,     THEREFORE,     THIS CASE IS RELATED TO

13      EMPLOYMENT AT     '['HE   FACTORY."

14      A •   I   KNOW THEY SAID THAT,        BUT HE WOULDN'T HAVE

15      GOTTEN A MESOTHELIOMA FROM WORKING              IN THE KILN JOB

16      EITHER.

17      Q.    DOCTOR,    HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A KILN W]TH BLOCKS

18      OF ASBESTOS     INSULATION AROUND       IT?

19      A.    YES.

20      Q.    NOW,    YOU WERE ALSO ASKED ABOUT A STUDY BY

21      ACHESON.

22      A.    UH HUH    (AFFIRMATIVE).

23      Q.    DO YOU HAVE THAT STUDY          BE~ORE    YOU?

24      A.    HMM?

::>'5   Q.    BY ACHESON.
                             G.    Schepers        -   Cross                     38


 1   A.     YES.

 2   Q.     IS THIS ACHESON AND GARDNER THE SAME ACHESON

 3   AND GARDNER WHO REPORTED ON THE SUBJECT OF ASBESTOS

 4   AND ASBESTOS-RELATED DISEASE IN AN OFFICIAL REPORT

 5   TO THE QUEEN OF ENGIJAND           IN 1983?

 6   A.     YES,    SIR.     I    DON'T HAVE THE                   ACHESON HASN'T

 7   SURVIVED HERE.

 8   Q.     I   WILL MAKE MY        COPY AVAILABLE TO              YOU.

 9   A.     THANK YOU.

10   Q.     DOCTOR,     IS THIS THE STUDY THAT YOU UNDERSTOOD

11   TO HAVE BEEN PUT UP HERE ON THE CHART BY MR.

12   MC CONNELL,?          TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT              I   HANDED YOU.

13   A.     IT I,OOKS      J,IKE THE SAME ONE,             YES.

14   Q.     AND THE STUDY THAT          I       HANDED YOU WAS A GAS MASK

15   W R KE R S,
      0            W MEN WHO HAD AC r UA IJ L Y W R KED
                    0                       I    0                     I N TWO

16   DIFFERENT FACTORIES,           AT LEAST TWO DIFFERENT

17   FACTORIES,      ONE OF WHICH USED CHRYSOTILE AND ONE OF

18   WHICH USED CROCIDOLITE?

19   A.     RIGHT.

20   Q.     AND JUS T '1' 0 GET C 1, EAR,         THE B IJ AC KBUR N FA C TOR YIN

21   BLACKBURN,      ENGLAND WAS THE ONE THAT USED CHRYSOTILE

22   TO MAKE CIVIl,IAN GAS MASKS                 DURING WORIJD          WAR   II?

23   A.     RIGHT.

24   Q.     THE CROCIDOLITE FACTORY WAS THE ONE THAT MADE

25   MILITARY GAS       MASKS     DURING        WORIJJ)   WAR   II'?
                                    G.    Sch~p~rs           -   Cross


  1    A.     '1' HArp   WAS    'r H F. 1, F; fJ A N [) FA C rp 0 R Y .

  2    Q.     NOW,       THE AUTHORS            NOTE THAT THERE WERE FIVE

  3    MESOTHELIOMAS            COMING OUT OF                LELAND WHERE THE

  4    CROCIDOLITF; WAS             USED?

  5    A.     RIGHT.

  6    Q.     THAT'S NOT REFLECTED ON THE CHART,                                    CORRECT?

  7    A.     RIGHT.

  8    Q.     AND THEY NOTE THAT THERE WAS                                ONE    PLEURAL

  9    MESOTHELIOMA COMING OUT OF THE                               BLACKBURN FACTORY?

10     A.     RIGHT.

11     Q.     THESE AUTHORS               COMMENT UPON THAT ON                      PAGE        347 OF

12     THAT ARTICLE WHERE THEY NOTE THAT A SECOND                                        FACTORY

13     WAS OPEN          IN BLACKBURN IN 1941                    TO MAKE THE MILITARY

14     VARIETY OF GAS MASKS                   WITH CROCIDOLITE?

15     A.     YES.

:1 6   Q.     AND THEY          ALSO GO ON TO NOTE

17                       MR.   Me CONNEI,L:                WHArr PAGE?

18                       MR.    SCHACH'l'MAN:              VE R Y    JJ A S T   S l<~ N'r EN CEO F' THE

19     ARTICLE.

20     BY MR.       SCHACHTMAN:

21     Q.     II   WE HA V ERE A SON TO B E Id. EVE T HAT THE B LAC KBUR N

22     PATIENT WITH            PLEURAL MESOTHELIOMA                       IN OUR MATERIAL

23     T RAN S FER RED '1' 0     THE SEC 0 N IJ B LAC K BUR N FA C TOR Y .                 II     DID    I


24     READ THAT CORRECTLY?

25     A.     YES.
                                       G.    Schepers -          Cross                        40


  1    Q.       DOCTOR,          LET ME GO TO THE NICHOLSON                          STUDY.          DO

  2    YOU HAVE THAT               BEFORE          YOU?

  3    A.       YES,      I    HAVE NICHOLSON.

  4    Q.       THE NICHOLSON                STUDY WAS OF THETFORD MINE

  5    WORKERS AND MILLERS?

  6    A.       YES,      MINE AND MILL WORKERS                      IN THETFORD.

  7    Q.       IS THIS THE SAME THETFORD MJNES YOU                                       VIS1T~D?


  8    A.       YES.

  9    Q.       AND THESE AUTHORS                     NOTED THAT THERE               WAS ONE

10     PLEURAL MESOTHELIOMA?

11     A.       RIGH'l'.

12     Q.       THAT THEY ASCERTAINED,                        CORRECT?

13     A.       IN THEIR GROUP THERE WAS ONE.

14     Q.       AND 'l'HE MC DONALD                   STUDY OF MINERS NOW -- AND

15     THERE ARE A LOT OF MC DONALD                            STUDIES.          BUT THIS            IS

16     THE ONE OF 11,000 SOME ODD MINERS                                AND MILLERS             IN

17     QUEBEC.           DO YOU HAVE THAT BEFORE YOU?

18     A.       R I GH'I' .

19     Q.       BEFORE I           ASK YOU ABOUT THIS.                    YOU 0 lOT E IJ I. U S

20     0   N E M0 NTH    0    F E X P 0 S 0 R r;   £i; V E N T N A C H R Y SO']' I   [1   E MIN E

;),1   COULD       LEAD TO         ASBESTOSIS.               YOU BELIEVE THAT TODAY?

22     A.       ONE MONTH CAN DO THAT,                        YES.

2J     Q.       AND DR.          MC    DONAld)        USED ONE MON'rH AS                  THE MINIMAL

24     AMOlJN,]'   OF'    EXPOSURE rr'o             Bft;   JNCIJUDED    IN '],HE STUDY?

25     A.       RIGHT.
                              G.    S~hRpRrS       -    Cross                  41


 1   Q.   AND THE INTERNATIONAL CLASS]FTCATTON DISEASE

 2   CODING IN THIS       STUDY       WAS    DONE       BY A PERSON      WHO

 3   REGULARLY    PERFORMS THR TASKS AT 1'HE QUEBRC

 4   DEPARTMENT OF VITAL STATISTICS?

 5   A.   RIGHT.

 6   Q.   AND THERE WAS             SOME 4,463 DEATHS?

 7   A.   ARE WE ON MC             DONALD?

 8   Q.   YES.

 9   A.   OKAY.

10   Q.   AND THESE WERE ALL                PLEURAL MESOTHELIOMAS,

11   CORRECT?

12   A.   AS    FAR AS    I    RECALL,       THAT IS          CORRECT.   THERE

13   WERE 11 MESOTHELIOMAS             AND THEY          WERE ALI,    PLEURALS.

14   Q.   AND

15                MR.    MC CONNELL:           ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT

16   MINING,    COUNSEL,       OR TEXTILE OF MC                DONALD?

17                MR.    SCHACHTMAN:           I       ALREADY    IDENTIFIED         IT

18   AS THE MINING STUDY OF QUEBEC,                      CANADA,     CURRECT?

19                THE WITNESS:              YES.

20   BY MR.    SCHACHTMAN:

21   Q.   TO GET THE          PROPORTIONATE MORTALITY RATIO,                        YOU

22   TAKE THAT TEN OR 11,             WHICHEVER          IT WAS    EXACTLY,         AND

23   DIVIDE    IT BY THE NUMBER OF DEATHS OBSERVED?

24   A.   YES.

25   Q.   AND    LET ME ASK YOU             ABOUT       THE    RUBINO STUDY OF
                                          G.        Schepers               -       Cross                       4:J.


        1    THE BOLANCHERO MINE.                        DO     YOU HAVE THAT BEFORE YOU?

        2    A.   YES .

        .3   Q.    IN THIS           STUDY RUBINO HAD WHAT HE CHARACTERIZED

        4    AS ONE UNCONFIRMED DEATH FROM                                         PLEURAL MESOTHELIOMA?

        5    A.   I   THINK SO.

        6    Q.   AND     IN THE ABSTRACT OF HIS ARTICLE HE NOTES

       7     THAT THE ONE DEATH ATTRIBUTED TO MESOTHELIOMA OF THE

        8    PLEURA BUT THE DIAGNOSIS                           WAS NOT SUPPORTED BY

       9     HISTOLOGICAL EXAMINATION?

      10     A.   J   NOTICED THAT.

      11     Q.   DOCTOR,            YOU AGREE THAT FOR THE PLEURA,

      12     CHRYSOTILE      IN YOUR                VIEW IS THE LEAST CARCINOGENIC?

'--   13     A.   THAT'S CORRECT.

      14     Q.   AND YESTERDAY YOU                        Ir)}<-:NTlfo~IED                 AN ARTICLE BY

      15     LA JARTE?

      16     A.   YES.

      17     Q.   IN THE ANNALS OF THE NEW YORK ACADEMY OF

      18     SCIENCES?

      19     A.   YES.

      20     Q.   DOCTOR,            I'M GOING TO REFER YOU TO THE ARTTCLE

      21     BY LA JARTE AT PAGE 323.

      22                  MR.        Me CONNELL:                       YOUR HONOR,                   MAY   I   ASK TO

      23     SEE THA'r?

      /,4                 'I' H ~;   C0   (J   R '1' :   S lJR 1<; •


      25                  MR.        SCHACH'rMAN:                      C   fo~   R 'f' A I N L Y •
                                    G.    Sr.hepers       -    Cross                               4.i


  1                THE COlJR'r:                 'l'HIS   IS    IDENTIFIED AS WHICH

  2   ARTICI,E?

  3                MR.     SCHACHTMAN:                   WE' L,JJ       HAVF~    ~['O   GIVE THIS A

 4    NEW IDENTIFICATION NUMBER.                          I    ~['   H r NKW E ' R 1'; UP '1' 0            --

  5                THE COURT:                   THIS WOULD              BE D-)'8.

 6                 MR.     SCHACHTMAN:                   FOR THE RECURD,                       THIS        IS

 7    AN ARTICLE IN A VOLUME OF ARTICLES VOLUME 330 OF THE

  8   ANNALS OF THE NEW YORK ACADEMY OF                                   SCIENC~.


 q          (ARTICLE 330 MARKED D-28                           FOR        IDENTIFICATION)

10                 THE COURT:                   YOU MAY PROCEED.

11                 MR.     SCHACHTMAN:                   I'M GIVING THE DOCTOR A

12    CHANCE JUST TO REVIEW IT.

13    BY MR.   SCHACHTMAN:

14    Q.   DOE S T HAT REF RES H YOU R R E C 0                        IJ IJ E C T ION   0 F'    'I' H F;

15    STUDY?

16    A.   YES.      THIS           IS ONE OF THE PAPERS THAT WAS

17    PRINTED FROM THAT MEETING.

18    Q.   ALi, RIG H 'I' .           AND IN THIS             PAPER LA JAHTE AND

19    LA JARTE STUDIED 70 DIFFERENT CASES OF MESOTHELIOMA?

20    A.   RIGHT.

/,1   Q.   AND THEY WERE FROM BRITTANY,                                  FRANCE,          CORRECT?

22    A.   YES.

23    Q.   AND BRITTANY,                  FRANCE IS           IN THE NORTHWEST COAST

24    OF FRANCE,     ACROSS              FROM

25    A.   o P PO SIT r:   ft".:   NG IJ AND.
                            (T.      S   c he per s       -   C   r   0 S S             44


  1   Q.   OPPOSITE ENGLAND AND                         IT'S A SHJPYARD             REGION?

  2   A.   YES.

  3   Q.   AND,   DOCTOR,         THE 70 CASES ARE REPORTED TO HAVE

  4   AN AVERAGE AGE OF           57       YEARS AT DIAGNOSIS,                     CORRECT?

  5   A.   RIGHT.

  6   Q.   AND THE RANGE OF AGES WAS                              22 TO 83 YEARS OLD?

 7    A.   RIGHT.

  8   Q.   AND THERE WERE NO THREE-YEAR-OLD OR

 9    SEVEN-YEAR-OLD CHILDREN CASES                           IN THAT STUDY?

10    A.   THAT CAME TN THE DISCUSSION PART AT THE MEETING

11    THAT I   ATTENDED.

12    Q.   IT'S NOT PUBLISHED.                          IS THA'T' RIGHT?

13    A.   T DON'T SEE          IT PUBLISHED HERE.

14    Q.   AND ON PAGE 329                 LA JARTE AND                  LA JARTE COMMENT

15    ON THE ELECTRON MICROSCOPY STUDY AND NOTE THAT THEY

16    HAD DONE THAT PROCEDURE ON                         25 CASES.              SEE THAT'?

17    A.   YES.

18    Q.   AND THEY NOTED THAT THE FIBERS                                     PRESENT USUALLY

19    WERE THOSE OF CHRYSOTILE AND OF AMPHIBOLE OFTEN

20    FOUND TOGETHER?

21    A.   YES.

22    Q.   AND 'rHEN THEY ALSO NO'rE CROCIDOLITE WAS                                    PRESEN'r

23    IN A FEW CASES?

/,4   A.   RTGH'r.

25    Q.   AND,   DOC TOR   f     If H fo~ t< B:   f   S NOM EN T ION ANY WHER E T N
                                                     G.   SCheperA        -   Cross                     4S


 1   '1' H J   S ART 1 C I. £I; 0              ft'   A C H R Y SOT 1 L F. ft' AC 'I' 0 R YIN HR I '1' '1' ANY?

 2   A.           NO.              THIS              IS NOT THE DISCUSSION OF THE FACTORY.

 3   THIS         PAPER                IS ON          TH~    SHIPYARDS.

 4   Q.           DOCTOR               I     WERE YOU FAM[LIAR THAT                    THER~      WAS       A

 5   CONFERENCE HELD                                 IN   P[TTSBURGH          IN 1988 CONDUCTED BY

 6   THE        INTERNATIONAL LABOR ORGANIZATION?

 7   A.           1    BELIEVE THERE WAS                            SUCH A CONFERENCE.                  I


 8   DIDN'T ATTEND                             IT.

 9   Q.           ARE YO lJ F AMIl, I A R W] T H THE                           PRO C E E DIN G S 0 F '1' HAT

10   CONFERENCE?

11   A.           I    DON'T THINK THEY WERE PUBLISHED.                                         I'VE NOT

12   SEEN THEM.

13   Q.           YOU'VE NOT SEEN THE ABSTRACT OF                                        PRESENTATION?

14   A.           I    THINK SOME DECISION WAS                                 MADE THEY WOULD NOT

15   BE        PUBLISHED.

16   Q.           DOCTOR               I     I'M GOING TO HOLD UP                   SOMETHING FOR YOU.

17   YOU'VE NEVER SEEN THIS?

18   A.           APPARENTLY                         SOMEBODY PUBLISHED 1'1'1                BUT I      SAW A

19   No'rE THEY WERE NOT GOING '['0 BE PUBLISHED.

20   Q.           DOC 'r 0 R           I     Y '-'~ S T E R DAY YOU TO L D US T HAT YOU C HA R G E

21   AT THE RATE OF $300 AN HOUR TO COME TO COURT?

22   A.           $300         I       YES.

23   Q.           AND YOU'VE TESTIFIED                                IN THE COURSE OF ASBESTOS

~4   LITIGATION                        IN OVER 100 TRIALS?

25   A.           'T' H A'I'   I   S       COR R E C 'I' .
                                  CT.    schepers         -   Cross                       46



 1    Q.     AND YOU'      V~:   A L SOT EST I FIE DIN D to; PO S I           'I'   ION S ?

  2   A.     YES   r    MORE 'I' [MRS.

 3    Q.     MAYBE OVER           2- OK     300 TIMES?

 4    A.     RIGHT.        OVER 300 NOW.

 5    Q.     AND YOU'VE TESTIFIED IN PERHAPS                            EVERY STATE              IN

 6    THE UNITED STATES?

 7    A.     ALL EXCEPTING FIVE.                      I   HAVEN'T MADE ALASKA r

 8    MONTANA r        NORTH DAKOTA.

 9    Q.     TESTIFIED           IN HAWAII r CALIFORNIA?

10    A.     WELLr       SOMEBODY PROMISED ME THEY'L1J                        LET ME COME

11    TO ALASKA.

:12   Q.     AND YOU'VE TESTIFIED                     IN HAWAII?

13    A.     I'VE BEEN TO HAWAII                     QUITE A FEW TIMES.

14    Q.     FOR       ASBESTOS         CASES?

15    A.     YES.        THERE'S A BIG SHIPYARD THERE CALLED                                   PEARL

J6    HARB 0 RAN D N UMER 0 USA S B E S 'r 0 SIS              PRO B L EMS .

17    Q.    AND YOU TESTIFIED IN CALIFORNIA.                              'I'HERE ARE

18    SHIPYARDS         IN CALIFORNIA?

19    A.    CALIFORNIA           I      THINK    I   WAS              ONE'S         IN SAN

20    DIEGO,   ONE'S       IN LOS ANGELES AND THEN JUST A

21    DEPOSITION         IN SAN FRANCISCO.

22    Q.     IN WASHINGTON STATE?

23    A.    YES,       IN SE4TTLE.

24    Q.     IN TEXAS?

25    A.    WHERE?
                                        G.    Schp.pers   -   Cross                47


     1    Q.         TEXAS?         HAVE YOU TESTIFIED           IN TEXAS?

      2   A.         OH,    TEXAS,      Y~S,      IN DALLAS AND HOUSTON.

      3   Q.         DR.    SCHEPERS,         YOU WERE APPROACHED         BY MR.    LOCKS

      4   IN 1979 OR THEREABOUTS?

     5    A.         YES.

     6    Q.         AND AT THAT TIME YOU ALSO MET A PLAINTIFF'S

     7    LAWYER BY THE NAME OF RON MOTLEY?

      8   A.         RIGHT.        THEY CAME TOGETHER.            AS A MATTER OF

     9    FACT,       MR.    MOTLEY WAS THE FIRST ONE TO DISCOVER THAT

    10    I    WAS    STILL AL1VE AND THEN HE                 SET UP A MEETING WITH

    11    ME.

    12    Q.         AND YOU'VE TES1'IFIED FOR MR.                MOTLEY THROUGHOUT
~
    13    THIS       COUNTRY?

    14    A.         QUITE A FEW TIMES.               T THINK TWICE THIS YEAR,

    15    THREE TIMES THIS               YEAR.

    16    Q.         AND YOU KNOW JOE RICE,               ONE OF MR.      MOTLEY'S

    17    PARTNER?

    18    A.         YES.     I    HAVEN'1' SEEN JOE FOR          SEVERAL YEARS          DUE

    19    TO VIDEOS,          SO    I   WOULDN'T HAVE TO APPEAR            IN COURT.

    /'0   Q.         AND,    INDEED,         TN   ONE OF THOSE VIDEOTAPES          YOU

    21    WERE ASKED WHEN YOU RENDERED THE BILL TO PUT DOWN

    22    THAT YOU'D GET A ROYALTY                    FOR THE    SHOWING OF THAT

    23    VIDEOTAPE?

    24    A.         THAT'S       NOT THAT VIDEOTAPE.            JOE RICE'S

    25    VIDEOTAPE WAS ONE-TIME AF¥AIR DONE                          IN KANSAS CITY
                                 G.    Schepers -                   Cross                           48


 1   FOR   A I, IJ 'I' H r: I< A [ iJ R 0 AI) CAS E SAN D l ' V E N 0 'I' H E E N

 2   I N VOL V E D W1 '1' H HIM S J N C F; ANn              H1:':      DOE S N ''I' PAY       MF.

 3   ROY AL'f'Y .      THEt{f~~'S     NO ROYAb'l'Y             PAYABLE ON               A   VIDEO         It'OR


 4   A DOC'I'OR.         FOR A MOVIE                STAR    MAYBE,              BUT NOT       FOR A

 5   DOCTOR.

 6   Q.     DOCTOR,          YESTERDAY THERE WAS                              A YOUNG WOMAN              IN

 7   THE COURTROOM WHO WAS                      READY AND                PREPARED TO WHISK

 8   YOU OFF TO ANOTHER                COURTROOM               IN NORTH JERSEY?

 9   A.     THAT'S         CORREc'r.            I    HAVE ANOTHER TRIAL AWAITING

10   IN

11   Q.     l';LIZABETH?

J2   A.     - -     i N ELI Z ABE 'I' H .           CELOTEX            -VS- A PLAINTIFF.

13   Q.     AND,       DOCTOR,        IN THIS          ASBESTOS                 LITIGATION,              ALL

14   THE TIMES         YOU'VE TESTIFIED,                    DIRECT AND CROSS

15   EXAMINATION,            YOU HAVE           INDICATED THAT YOU'VE COME TO

16   SEE YOURSELF AS             A PERFORMING SEAL                            FOR THE ATTORNEYS

17   INVOLVED?

18   A.     THAT WAS          A LITTLE JOKE THAT WE                              PASSED BETWEEN

19   US,   JOE      RICE AND MYSELF,                  AND     I       WAS      REALLY QUOTING

20   DR.   LANZA WHO HAD CATEGORIZED DOCTORS                                        TESTIFYING                IN

21   COURTROOMS         AS    PERFORMING SEALS                        FOR      LAWYERS       BECAUSE

22   THE   LAWYERS         ASK   SUCH          RIDICULOUS                QUESTIONS          AND MAKE

23   THE M .J U MP T H R 0 UGH        L0   0   PS    (S Ie) .

24   TRICK QUESTIONS             TO    SEE HOW THEY CAN MAKE THEM JUMP

25   AROUND.         AND     THAT'S        SOME'T1Mt<":S            'I'Ht<:   FI-.:EL,JNG   'f'HA']' A
                            G.   ~chepers     -    Cross                    49


 1   WITNESS LIKE MYSELF WHO'S USED TO MORE FURMAL TYPE

 2   OF DISCUSSION FEEL          LIKE WHEN LAWYERS              PLAY TRICKS

 3   WITH THEM AND MAKE LITTLE WEIRD GAMES                       AND MAKE THEM

 4   DO SILLY THINGS.

 5   Q.     DOCTOR --

 6   A.     I   THINK I'M EN'PI'rIJED TO          COMMI<~N'f'   ON I'T'.

 7   Q.     DOCTOR,     YOUR OPINIONS ARE             ABSOLUT~LY       WELCOME.

 8   A.     RIGHT.

 9   Q.     DOCTOR,     YOU HAVE TES'['IFIED UNDER OA'],H,                 'rHOUGH.,

10   THAT YOU WERE JOE RICE'S             PERFORMING SEAL?

11   A.     NO.    I   SAID IT SEEMS       LIKE I'M SERVING AS A

12   PERFORMING SEAL.

13   Q.     YOU'VE ALWAYS MADE THAT DISTINCTION IN YOUR

14   TESTIMONY?

15   A.     THAT WAS THE ORIGINAL.                NOW,      YOU PEOPLE KEEP ON

16   QUOTING IT AND THERE YOU GO AGAIN WITH YOUR

17   PER FOR MIN G SEA I. T RIC KS TRY I NG        'I' 0   QUO T E FRO M A QUO T E

18   ON TOP OF A QUOTE WITH SOMEBODY MISREAD                        fT.     THEY

19   KNOW   I'M HARD OF HEARING.            THEY LEAVE LITTLE THINGS

20   OUT LIKE YOU'VE DONE IN THIS COURTROOM                       Y~STERDAY.


21   LEAVE LITTLE PARTS OF SENTENCES OFF AND THEN I                              THINK

22   YOU'VE ASKED THE WHOLE THING AND I                      ANSWER    AND THEN

23   LATER ON THAT GETS QUOTED AND THAT                      IS THE TRICKERY

24   T HAT YOU P EO P LEA P P IJ Y or 0 A D() C 'l' U R L IKE M£0; 'I' 0 ACHI EVE

25   YOUR OBJECTIVES.
                                     G.    Schepers          -    Cross                            50


  1            NOW,    '1' HAT MAY B I';     L r~ G I '1' I MA'r l'~         Y
                                                                        I, AW E R INc;,       B U'r     I 'I'

  2    ENDS    UP    IJOOKING RIDICUI,OUS                  ):"ROM MY             POINT OF         VIEW.

  3    Q•      DOCTOR,         THE VERY          FIRST THING THAT                      I    ASKED       YOU

  4    IN THIS       CROSS      EXAMINATION WAS                   WHETHER YOU WERE HARD

  5    OF HEARING.             IS   THAT CORRECT?

  6    A.      'rHAT'S     R   I GWI' .

  7    Q.      AND DIDN'T            I    GIVE    YOU      EVERY OPPORTUNITY TO TELL

  8    ME THAT YOU HAD NOT HEARD A QUESTION?

  9    A.      SOMETIMES            YOU    DID AND THEN                 SOMETIMES,            ALTHOUGH

10     I'M HARD OF HEARING,                  YOU DELIBERAPELY                         LEFT    PARTS OF

11     A SENTENCE OFF               IN ORDER TO MAKE AN                          IMPRESSION TO THE

12     JURY THAT       I   HAD       SAID ONE THING WHEN                          IF YOU READ THE

13     OTHER    FEW WORDS            IT COMES OUT THAT                       I    HAD ACTUALLY

14     SAID.        AND THAT HAS            NOTHING TO DO WITH HARD OF

:l 5   HEARING.        IT HAS TO DO WI'['H                   LEGAL TRICKERY.

16     Q.      DOCTOR,         HAVE       YOU EVER         HESITATED TO VOLUNTEER

17     INFORMATION OR CORRECT ME                        IF I           WAS       WRONG?

18                     MR.      MC CONNl';LL:              I'M GOING TO OBJECT.

19     A.      WHEN    I


20                     THE:     COUR'f:          JUS'l' A MOMENT.                     'l'HE QUESTION

21     IS OBJECTED TO.                   I'M GOING TO SUSTAIN THE OBJECTION.

22     DOCTOR,       NEVER                 NO WITNESS             IS     IN       A POSITION TO

23     CORRECT ON A QUESTION.                      THE COURT,                    AS   A MATTER OF

24     FACT,    STOPS      ANY QUES'1'ION WHEN A WITNESS                                   SAYS    WHAT DO

25     YOU MEAN       BY THIS?              COURT ALWAYS                 SAYS         REFRAME YOUR
                              G.   sCheperR                   -    Crnss                   5J



 1   QUJ:!;STrON.      WITNESS     DOESN'T' ASK QUf.i;S'!'lONS.                         I'M GOING

 2   TO SUSTAIN THE          OBJ~CT[ON.


 3                    MR.   SCHACHTMAN:                  I'LL        REPHRASE THE

 4   QUESTION.

 5                    rpHF: COUR'l':        YOU       MAY REPHRASE                IT.

 6   BY MR.      SCHACHTMAN:

 7   Q.     DR.      SCHEPERS,     DID       I    EVER LIMIT YOU TO YES OR NO

 8   ANSWERS?

 9   A.     NO   I   YOU HA V E Norr    I    F; x C E P'1' I NG 0 NeE            YES T E R DAY   WHEN

10   YOU   SAID YOU'RE NOT ANSWERING MY QUESTION.                                         [ ,JlJs'r

11   WANT YOU TO SAY YES               OR    NO   I      BECAUSE           J    HAD GIVEN AN

12   EXPLANATION.           YESTERDAY YOU DID THA'], ONCE.

l3   Q.     I    DIDN'T WANT THE             BECAUSE.                 I    JUST WANTED THE

14   FACT THAT YOU CHANGED YOUR                          THOUGH'l' ABOUT CHRYSOTILE

15   CAUSING MESOTH8LIOMA               IN 1979.

16   A.     RIGHT.

17   Q.    THE N I      G A V E YOU AN 0 P PO R TUN I T Y TOE X P 1. A I N '1' HA rr

18   YOU CHANGED        IT BASED UPON LA JARTE AND LA JARTE

19   ARTICLE.

20   A.    RIGHT.

21   Q.    AND THEN WE          DISCUSSED                LA JARTE              ARTICLE THIS

22   MORNING.

23   A.    RIGHT.

24   Q.    AND I      DOC 'r 0 RID 0    YOU '[' H 1 N K 'f HAT 1 TWA S MY

25   QUESTIONS WERE          RIDICULOUS               'I'(l       GO OVER THESE STUDIES
                                    G.    schepers             -    Cross                              52


 1   THAT YOU COMMENTED (JPON                        AND

 2                      MR.      MC CONNELL:                  I'M GOING 'ro OBJECT' TO

 3   THE QUESTION AS                ARGUMENTATIVE.

 4   A.     NO.

 5                      THE COUR'l':              ,JUS'f A         MOM~NT.



 6                      MR.      SCHACHTMAN:                  YOUR    HONOR,       THE DOCTOR

 7                      THr~     COUR'j':         REFRAME YOUR              QUESTION.

 8   BY MR.    SCHACHTMAN:

 9   Q.     DR.     SCHEPERS,             DO YOU         'rHINK       IT WAS       RIDICULOUS OF

10   ME TO GO THROUGH THE DATA AND TO SEE WHAT THESE

11   AUTHORS,       WHO ARE RESPECTED EPIDEMIOLOGISTS,                                               HAD TO

12   SAY ABOUT THEIR OWN STUDIES?

13   A.     NO,     SIR.          THAT'S NOT RIDICULOUS                       AND           I       HAVEN'T

14   SAID SO.           WE WERE TALKING ABOuT RIDICULOUS                                            THINGS

15   LAWYERS      DO     IN GENERAL AND WE WERE REFERRING TO THAT

I6   PERFORMANCE THERE WITH MR.                               JOE RICE.           'rH I S           TH T NG

17   WHI C H HAP PEN E DAB 0 UT S T X YEA R SAG 0                           AND     I 'f'       HAP P fo~ NED

18   ONLY ONCE AND               F;VERY'l'IM"~       I   GET        TN'rO A COURTROOM

19   HAVE '1'0 HEAR ABOUCe                1'['.      THAT SOUNDS             RIDI CU{JOUS                   'T'O

20   MIL

21   Q.     AND     IT SOUNDS             RIDICULOUS               TO YOU TO HEAR

22   EVERYTIME YOU HAVE TESTIFIED                                  IN A PERSONAL                    INJURY

23   CASE   INVOLVING ASBESTOS                       IN THE LAST TEN OR                             12 YEARS

24   IT HAS    BEEN ON THE                PLAINTIFF'S                SIDE?

25   A.     WEld,   I    YO LJ    K NOW   I   f    H A V Po    APE R S P 1<; en    v F:         0   NTH AT I F
                                                                      G.       SchApArs                   -     Cross



       :i    YOU'Ll                   LrKfi~        '1'0     DO 'l'HA'r.

       2                          I       THINK            I'l"       S     IMMORAL               FOR           A nOC'l'OR              'T'O TAKE MONEY

       -'3   FROM                 BOrrH         SIDES                 AND          SAY WHEREVER 'l'HE                                MON~~Y      IS            I   'LL

       4     TAKI:';              l'l'      f:i'.KOM.             1       M A J)   E A DEL I B I:': R A ']' ft~               0   B J E C '1' I V E

       5     DECISION THAT ONCE                                                I     START GIVING                            EVIDENCE            FOR ONE

       6     SIDE                 I       WILL ONLY STAY                              WITH THAT ONE                               SIDE.          THA'I'                IS

       7     MY MORAL                        BELIEF THAT YOU                                 SHOULD NOT TAKE MONEY                                                 ~ROM


       8     BOTH                 SIDES.                   THERE'S                  MONEY             EXCHANGED                      BETWEEN THE

       9     ATTORNEYS                         AND ME WHEN THEY                                       SAY COME TO THE COURTROOM

10           AND          WE              WILL        PAY             YOU          YOUR      FEE AND                    I     SAY MY           FEE             IS

11           $300 BECAUSE THAT'S HOW I                                                            CALCULATE MY                          EXPENSES                       AND

12           SO      FORTH.

13                                NOW,          I     THINK                 IT      WOULD             BE        IMMORAL               ~OR      ME TO GO

14           FOR          H 1 G HER                 BID D ERA N D SAY                             L E'I' 's           S r~ E J F MR.             S C HAC 'I'M A N

15           WILL                 PAY ME MORE                             AND       I'LL TESTIFY                             FOR      HIM.            THERE

16           HAVE                 BEEN LAWYERS                              OF THE           DEFENSE WHO HAVE OFFERED ME

17           DOUBLE THE MONEY THAT                                                    PLA[NTIF~rS                            LAWYERS,            AND               I

18           HAVE TURNED THEM DOWN.

19           Q.                   [)OC'I'OR,               HAS            MY       FIRM OR                --

20           A.                   NO,        NOT           YOUR             FIRM.            THERE               HAVE             BEEN      LAWYERS.

21           Q.                   AND        SO       FOR THE                      LAST 12 YEARS                             THE      MONEY THAT YOU

22           H A V E ']' A KEN                      INC 0 NNE C ']' TON W'[ ']' H '[' HIS                                     IJ I   'r I GAT [ 0 N HAS

;:>,   3     A I.. WAY S B F; E N F' ROM                                  P L. A I N'1' I F j<'   I   S       E MP I, 0 Y F: R S ?

24           A.                   J 'V F~      0 N L, Y           Ace f!; P '1' E U       M0 N E Y             }:<' t{ 0 M    P (J A 1 N 'P I F' F S •                 WHEN

25           TH   ft~.K   fi-::       I   SAD E P () S .t '('               I. n NAN D            rr H}:<~     [) E   FEN S 1:':      A T 'I' 0 R N   r~   Y       NEE D S
                                           G.         Schepers                  -    Cross                               54



 1    'r 0   KNOW WHAT MY V T E WS                            ARE AND                H0    1.1 D SAD Eo: PO S I '1'      ION ,

 2    rfHEN         SEN D 'r H g           B 1 1,1., TO 'T' HE                  P L A I WI' IFF'S            A'f' TOR N E Y

 .1   WHOM        T'M REPRESEN'l'JNG.                              IN          SOME CASES THAT

 4    P t, A I N'1' IFF'S AT'}' 0 R N E Y Wfl., I,                        PAY        'I' HE    B ILL, .           IN OTHER

 5    CASES        HE    WILL         PASS             fT      FUR WARD TO THE DEFENSE

 6    A T TOR N E Y      AND         S 0 ME;       C)J:o'    '1' HEM      PAY        AND       S () ME    0 1<'   'I' H E; M


 7    DON' 'I' .        I'VE DONE                  DEPOSITIONS                       FOR       FIRMS        HERE         IN

 8    NEWARK,           THE     BERRY FIRM,                        WHERE THEy'VE                         RUN      UP     BILLS

 9    I NTH f.':    THO USA N D S 0 F DO I. L A R SAN D I ' V ENE: V r.~ R BEE N P A I D

10    BY THEM AND THAT                         I      DON'T UNDERSTAND                            BECAUSE

11    ORDINARII,Y             YOU'RE DEALING WITH                                      HONORABl,E                 PEOPLE AND

]2    YOU SEND THEM                   A    BILL,              THEY             PAY     IT.

13    Q.          YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THOSE ARE DISCOVERY

14    DEPOSITIONS               WHERE              UNDER           THE COUR'I' RULES                        'PHE       LAWYERS

15    HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO                                    FIND OUT WHAT THE EXPERT ON

16    THE OTHER            SIDE WILL                        SAY?

17    A.          NO QUESTION ABOUT                             IT.             IT     IS      A NORMAL             PROC~DURE


18    AND     I    H AVE      NO 0 B J E C 'I' ION S                   'I' 0    'r H A 'r ATAL L .

19    Q.          DOCTOR,            JUS'l' TO MAKE                       SURE THAT               r' VE QUOTED YOU

20    CORREC'rLY

2J                         MR.        Me       CON NEllI, :                    MAY     I      SEE?

22    Q.          YOU '1' EST I FIE DIN J UN E AND                                    I. ATE R       IN

23    MASSACHUSSETTS                      WHERE YOU GAVE A LENGTHY                                          VIDEOTAPE

24    DEPOSITION --

25                         '1' H E    C () U R'l'     :       WH fo; N         WAS    T HJ S ?
                                                 G.    Schepers         -       Cross                                55



      J                              MR.    SCHACH'PMAN:            ,JUNft;          2   r    1990.

      2   BY MR.             SCHACHTMAN:

      3   Q.       DO          YOU       REeAld, 'rHA'r?

     4    A.       YES.                 THAT WAS        A DEPOSITION THAT                             I    UON'T HAVE

     5    TO GO TO BOSTON ANY                           LONGER.

     6    Q.       AND ON THAT OCCASION YOU WERE                                              ASKED THE

     7    QUESTION AND                     YOU'VE       EVEN DESCRIBED                        YOURSELF ON A

     8    COUPLE OF OCCASIONS,                           NOT    EVERYTIME,                      AS        AN   ATTORNEY'S

     9    PER FOR MIN G S r.; AI,                INC 0 NNE C T ION WI 'I' H 'I' HIS                        J.1 T I GAT ION,

    10    HAVEN'T YOU,                     AND YOU ANSWERED                     "I'M THAT SEEMINGLY

    11    EVE R Y'I' I MF;       •       THE A 'r TOR N £0: Y S HA V E G REA 'I'                     FUN WIT H ME.            II




    12    THAT WAS               YOUR       ANSWER?
~
    13    A.       THAT WAS                 CORRECT.           THAT'S            WHAT           I     SAID.          'rHAT'S

    14    WHAT     ['M           SAYING TO YOU NOW.

    15                               MR.    SCHACHTMAN:             THANK                YOU,         DR.      SCHEPERS.

    16

    17                               TH fi: COUR'P:       ANYTHING ON                        REDIRECT?

    18

    19    REDIRECT               EXAMINATION

    20    BY MR.             Me CONNELL:

    /,1   Q.       DOC TOR,                YOU    I N D I CAT EDT 0             US       T H A '1'    YO lJ R V lEW S

    22    CHANGED              IN 1979 REGARDING THE CARCINOGENICITY                                                   O~


    23    C HR YS 0    c{'   I JJ E ?

    24    A.       I         MISSED THE               PfKST    PART.

    25    Q.       DlD           YOU       fNDICA'I'E     TO    U::>,       1    HEI,l}<;VE               Yfo;S'I'I:<~RIlAY   ANlJ
                                        G.     schepers            -     ReDirect


    :l   THIS     MORNING,           THA'l'    YOUR       SCTENTTF'IC                VIEWS,    YOUR

    2    0 PIN ION S      REG A R DIN G WH E THE R C H R Y SOT I TJEW A S DE FIN I T E JJ Y

    3    A CAUSE OF            MESOTH~LIOMA,               CHANGED              IN    1979.        IS    ']'HAT

    4    CORRECT?

    5    A.       THAT     IS    CORREC'r.            IT'S         NOT WHETHER               IT WAS         A

    6    CAUSE OF         IT,    BUT WHETHER               CHRYSOTILE                 SHOULD       BE

    7    C LAS S I FIE D AS          (: ARC I NO G EN I CAS              AG A INS 'r CA. U SIN G

    8    THINGS.          THE    FACT         IT CAUSES            CANCER HAD            BEEN KNOWN

    9    SINCE THE 1940S                BECAUSE           IT WAS              ASSUMED TO       BE CAUSING

10       THE CANCER            THROUGH         THE MECHANISM OF ASBESTOSIS.                                     AND

11       THERE WAS         A -JOURNAL OF THE                    AMERICAN MEDICAl,

12       ASSOCIATION            EDITORIAL            IN    WHICH THE AMERICAN

13       PROFESSION OFFICIALLY DECLARED                                       IN 1944 THAT CANCERS

14       ARISING         IN A PERSON WITH ASBESTOSIS                                  SHOULD BE

15       CONSIDERED TO HAVE                    BEEN DUE TO THE ASBESTOSIS                                AND,

16       THEREFORE,            DUE TO ASBESTOS                  AND THAT WAS                 THE

17       SEQUENCE.             BUT    IN

18       Q.       I     MISSPOK8.

j   9    A.       I N    179               AND      I'VE      BEEN SEARCHING FOR

20       EVIDENCE AJ.JL          Al.,ONG AS         WE     DISCUSS.Eo~J)             HERE,    YOU       KNOW,

21       THROUGH MY            EXPE~IMEN'T'S          TO      SF;f<~     IF    WE     SHOU',D CHANGE

22       THA'r    INTERPRETA'rTON AND                     CAL'!,       1'1'   A PR IMARY

23       CARCINOGEN.             REG A R D [, E S S 0 f"        A S B £0; S '1' 0 SIS,   l ' peA N       C A U S .Eo~


24       CANCER.          AND    IT'S ONLY WHEN THE MESOTHELIOMA THING

25       WAS     C),EARF:lJ     UP    IN      '79   'rHA'!'            THEN              WAS       CONVINCED
                                      G.      Scheper~            -    Rel)jrect.                   57


     1    JT WAS A CARCINOGEN.

     2    Q.      AND,      DOCTOR,        r{,HJ:t~    RESRARCH THA'J' WAS                 nONE Arl' 'fHE

     .3   SA RAN AC LAB 0 R A rp 0 R Y,         ARE ANY 01"             THE 0 'f HE I<      D 1 R E C'I' 0 R S

     4    OF THE SARANAC            LABORATORY                  THAT DrD THE TESTS                  AT THE

     5    REQUEST OF THE ASBESTOS MINING COMPANIES AND

     6    A S B E S 'P 0 SIN SUI, AT ION COM PAN I E S,                 ARE ANY 0 F THO S F;

     7    OTHER DIRECTORS OR                 DOCTORS             FROM THE SARANAC

     8    LABORATORY ALIVE TODAY THAT YOU KNOW OF?

     9    A.      I'M THE LAST DIRECTOR.                              DR.     VARBEL DIED           IN

10        1976.       DR.    GARDNER         DIED          IN    '46.

11        Q.      AND,      IF YOU'LL RECALL,                     COUNSEL           SPECIFICALLY

12        ASK E D YOU       I F V 0 USE N f('          LET 'f' E R S 't' 0    0 WE: N S COR N I NG 0 R I F

1.3       YOU HAD COMMUNICATIONS                        WI'fH     OWI:t~NS     CORNIN(;' WARNING

14        THEM WHETHER OR            NOT TO              PUT ASBESTOS               INTO    PRODUCTS OF

15        THEIRS      IN 1955,        I    THINK YOU SA[D?

16        A.      YES.

:1   7    Q.      AND YOU          INDICATED THAT YOU WARNED THEM NOT TO

:1 8      DO THA'r,      CORREC'r?

19        A.      I   WARNED THEM NOT TO 00                           IT.      THAT WAS         NOT 1955;

20        THAT WAS       1956.

21        Q.      I'M SORRY,          '56?

22        A.      THAT'S WHEN THE                     ISSUE                  THAT    IS WHEN        I

23        DIS C 0 V ERE D 'I' H A~I' () Wft; N S COR N [ NG COR P 0 R A']' ION WAS

24        IN T ERE S TED     IN US T Ne;        AS B EST () SAN U 1 WAR NEil r1' HEM

25        STRONGT,Y AS         I   COUIJfJ      '['0 S'f'AY       AWAY        ""ROM ASBESTOS.
                                          G.       Schepers               -      l(e();rAcr.



   1   Q.        A N f) HOW MAJ\l Y 0 'r H £0; R DOC TOR                        ~     ARE YOU AWAR l<; 0 F

   2   THAT ARE ALIVE THAT WARNED OWENS CORNING IN 1956 NOT

   3   TO USE ASBESTOS                    PRODUCTS?                       HOW MANY OTHERS DO YOU

  4    KNOW OF THAT ARE ALIVE THAT CAN THE TES1'IFY TO THAT

  5    FACT THAT MR.                  SCHAC'l'MAN ASKED YOlJ ABOUT?

  6    A.        THERE WOU liD BE NOBODY NOW.

  7    Q.        1   S N I 'I' I 'I' 'I' R U1';,     DOC '1' 0 R,         T HAT '{' Hg                VA S 'I' MA J 0 R I T Y

  8    OF TIMES THAT                  YOU'R~          CALLED TO                      T~ST1FY                 AS A WITNESS

  q    IS REGARDING H1STORICAL FACTS THAT                                                     YOU'R~              AWARE OF

LO     AND COMMUNICATIONS THAT YOU'VE HAD WITH VARIOUS

11     ASBESTOS COMPANIES OVER THE YEARS?

12     A.        YES,          SIR.       ABOU't' 80               PERCEN'r,              I'D SAY,                  IF NOT

i. 3   HIGHER.             o THE R TIM E S            I'   MeA L 1.1 E j) 't' 0              A CO U R 'I' ROO MIS 'r 0

14     SERVE AS A FACT WITNESS ON PAST EVENTS                                                                B~CAUSE        THAT

1.5    SEEM TO BE IMPORTANT TO THE COURT.

16     Q.        AND EARLIER COUNSEL KEAD TO YOU FROM A 1972

17     SYMPOSIUM ON TAI,C?

18     A.        YES.

19     Q.        AND HE QUOTED AND SAID DOCTOR,                                                 DIDN'T YOU SAY

20     IN     197~      THAT THERE ARE DIFFERENCES                                           BETWEEN TALC AND

:? 1   T REM 0 IJ 1 'I' E CON T R A S T S H AR P [, Y WI 'r HAS B 1'; WI' 0 SAN D H E

22     QUO TED T HAT 'I' 0              YO lJ,       DID N "J' HI:<;?

;),3   A.        y~s.



24     Q.        AND       I    DON"r         R~~MEMI:Ifo;R         IF'       I'l'    CAME UP AND WAS

25     WR I   'r TEN    DOW N      HER. f!;    0 R    N () 'I' •     'I' H A '1'     's   '1' H t<;    }<~   0 l< M U LA,   J.
                                    G.    Schepers           -     Rellirect.                           59


 1    H~LIEVE       IT      IS,    FOR TREMOLITE.                    ] S    T HArp    'J' H J:i:   P K 0 P J:t; R


 2    WORU?

 .1   A•      'T' HAT I S CHI'; MI CAL      fe' 0 R MUl, A       0 ft' 'r REM 0 II 1'1' E .

 4    Q•      NOW,       DID N 'T YO [J TEL, I, MR.                S C HAC 'I'M ANY E; S '1' E R DAY

 5    'I'HAT THERE ARE TWO KINDS OF TREMOr,JepE?

 6    A.      YES,       SIR.

 7    Q.      FIBROUS?

 8    A.      FIBROUS AND CRYSTALLINE.

 9    Q.      AND THE CRYSTAJ.I,INE                                FIBROUS           IS      THE

10    ASBESTOS         FORM TYPE OF TREMOLITE,                             CORRECT?

11    A.      RIGH'I'.

12    Q.      AND      WHEN YOU WERE SPEAKING ABOUT THE

13    DIl"FERENCES           IN TALC AND TREMOLITf!:                        IN 'rHA'.l' COMMENT,

14    WHICH ONE WERE YOU SPEAKING ABOUT?

15    A.      '}' H E CRY S TAL LIN £0: •

16    Q.      AND      IS    THE TREMOLITE THAT YOU DESCRIBED AS

17    BEING PRESENT AS A CONTAMINANT,                                  IS THAT            FIBERS OR

18    CRYSTAL),INE?

19    A.      'J'HAT     rs FIBROUS.           THAT          PARTICULAR TREMOLITE,

20    ALTHOUGH         IT'S       CHEMICALLY TREMOLITE BECAUSE THE

21    CHEMICAL FORMULA               IS    SAME AS           CRYSTALLINE,                    IT'S         CALLED

22    AMPHIBOLE ASBESTOS                  AND THAT           IS      WHERE       SOME OF THE

23    CONFUSIONS COME ou'r.                  BECAUSE,                FOR     TNS'PANCE,                IN ONE

24    OF THE;SE ARTICl,ES 'PHAir WE J'UST D1 SCUSSED 'l'HE                                             DOC'I'ORS

25    SAY THERf.';'S         A l,OT OF CH:KYSU'T'ILI<; AND 'I'Hf<.: 1<1<;s'r Oft'                              I'l'
                                        (~.     s c h e per s        -    t<   e   I );   r ec   t.




 1   IS   AMPH1BOLE.                   BY THAT THEY MEAN CHRYSOTILE                                            ~IBERS


 2   LIKE THE FIRST ONE ON THE L[ST AND THE REST                                                               IS

 3   AMPHIBOLE,             NAMELY,             TREMOLITE,                ACTINOLITE AND

 4   ANTHOPHYLLIT~.



 5   Q.     THESE THREE.                        THE       ON~S       YOU SAY OCCUR                           IN THE

 6   BUNDLE?

 7   A.     YES.

 8                        MR.        flCHACWfMAN:                                                      ]   OBJEC,]' TO

 9   THE CONTINUING LEADING QUESTIONS.

10                        MR.        MC CONNEIJL:                 YOUR HONOR,                          COUNSEL

11                        THE COURT:                     JUST A MINUTE.

12                        MR.        MC CONNEIJL:                 I'M SORRY.

13                        '1'H}O~    COURT:              NO QUESTION.                        NO CROSS

14   ARGUMENT.              PROCEED.

15                        MR.        MC CONNEIJL:                 THANK YOU,                          SIR.

16                        THE C 0 U R 'I' :              YOUR     OBJECTION WAS MADE A

17   LITTLE LATE.                    I'M GOING TO ALLOW THE QUESTION AND

18   ANSWER TO REMAIN.                          PLEASE DO NOT LEAD.

19   BY MR.            MC CONNELL:

20   Q.     AND YOU RECALlJ TESTIFYING TO THE LADIES AND

21   GENTLEMEN OF THE JURY                               YESTERDAY ON DIRECT EXAM THAT,

22   IN   FACT,          THERE ARE TWO TYPES OF TREMOLITE?

23   A.     YES.

24   Q.     AND 'rHE                ON~;S     't'HA'J'              THE T REM 0 I. ITt'; T HAT YOU

25   IDE NT I   )'i'   1 ED AS       COM I NG r' ROM            Crr~ 0   R (.. I A AND 0 THE R
                                             G.     Schepers -                  ReDirect                          61


 1    L 0 C A '1' ION S l' HA '}' CAN               BEL N 'f' HE 'I' AIJ C,               WHAT 'f' Y PEW A S

  2   THA'l'?

 .3   A.        T HAT        IS        C 1< Y S 'I' A L 1.I. Ng     'l'R EM () L I 'I' E l' HAT CAN

 4    CONTAMINATE                 TH~        TALC.

 5    Q.        AND THE ONLY PLACE THAT YOU'VE                                             ~OLV         US    IN THE

 6    UNITED STATES WHERE FIBNOUS TYPE OCCURS                                                          IN    WITH THE

 7    TAlJC     IS     TN      UPSfl'ATF~           NEW YORK                 PLANT WHERE 'rHEY MAKE

 8    INDUSTRIAL TALC?

 9    A.        'rHAT'S CORRECT.

10    Q.        YOU TOLD US THAT ON DIRECT,                                          DIDN'T YOU?

11    A.        VANDERBILT MINE.

12    Q.        DR.         SCHEPERS,               STANDARD MORTALITY RATIOS,

13    COUNSEL SPOKE ABOUT THEM                                      EARLIER TODAY.

14                           MR.         SCHACHTMAN:                        OBJECTION.             I    DIDN'T TALK

15    ABOUT         STANDARD.

16    BY MR.         MC CONNELL:

17    Q.        PRO PO R T T () N A I.. M0 R 'I' A L f 'P Y R A'1' lOS?

18    A.        YES.

19    Q.        ARE PRO P 0 R 'Ii ION A I J M0 R 'e A LIT Y RAT lOS,                                   ARE THE Y AN

20    INDICATION OF WHAT AN                                INDIVIDUAL                DIED      ~ROM          OR    ARE

21    THEY AN          INDICATION OF WHAT THE                                     STATISTICAL RISK

22    MIGHT BE OF SOMEONE GETTING THAT                                               PARTICULAR DISEASE

23    IN QUESTION?

).4   A.        I   'r 's    l' H F:     F' 0 R M ~; R •       IT       INDICATES          WHAT THE

),5   CONTRIBUTION                     WAS     TN     AJ..I,      'I'HEt~    [}~;A'r'HS   IN   A       CIJUS'l'ER OF'
                                                           G.         Scheper~                 -      f<el);rf'ct:



     1   P E0 P       I.d'~   .

     2   Q.              HOW            DOE S          'r H E       PRO P 0.1{ 'Ii l. 0 N A I.             M 0 R 'I' A 1.I   'r Y   0 F        A     S 'J' U 0 Y

     3   OF       E I 'I'H ER             MINE.I{ S             OR      M I LI,ER S        I       :r;VEN        FORG E']/f{' I NG                 ']' HA '}'

     4   CO U N S E L             's       EX PER 'f            USE 0       'r HEW H 0             L l<~     CO H 0 R TAN J)              WE         USE


     5   HERE           ONLY              THE          DEATHS


     6                                     MR.         ~CHACH'rMAN:                       OBJ EeTION                  I      YOUR         HONOR,                 'j'O


     7   THESE                SPEECHES.                         I'M       SO R R Y         I       DID N ''I'         WA I '1'      FOR            THE


     8   END      I      BU'P           MR.        Me      CONNELL                 IS


     9                                                                                     I'LL              REPHRASE               THE


10       QUES'1' ION.

11       BY       MR.             MC      CONNELL:


"1   2   Q.             HOW             DOE S          THE          PRO PO R T ION A i,                    M0 R T A l,I T Y         RAT I 0


13       AFFECT                   MR.           RONALD              HILL?


14       A.             IT           J) 0 j4;   S N "['    A F FEe T           HIM        BE C AU S E              HE:       D I fo~ D    0 F        0 N I, 'I


15       0 N F.       T H IN G,N A MEL Y                        I    M F. SOT H E I, 10M A •


16       Q.             WHAT              WAS          HIS          RISK       OF        GETTING                 MESOTH~LIOMA?


17       WHAT           WAS            HIS         PROPORTIONAL                          RATIO?

18       A.              "100           PERCEN'r.


19       Q.             DOCTOR,                     IF     WE         HAD      A        '(,HOUSAND               PJ1;OPI,E          WORKING                     AT

20       A    PLANT                  AND         THEY           WERE        ALL          WORKING                 WITH          THE        MOST

? 1      TO X T C             SUB S TAN C E                [N        '1' HEW 0.1{ 1, D         I     AND         0 NE        0 F    THE M DIE D


22       FRO M 'J' HAT                    TO X I C         SUB S TAN C J4;,               AND              THE     DAY         A fi' T 1'; R       HE     DIE D


23       THE          WHOI,E               Pl,ANT          BI,l<~W        UP       AND         EVl':RYONE                 WAS       KILLED                FROM

24       ANOTHER                     CAUSE,               WHAT          WOULD            THE         PROPORTIONAL                         MORTALITY


2    5   RAT T 0              () F      D F: A 'I' H      BEt<' 0 R         '[' H 10;    T N D I V I n U A IJ             WHO       D TED            r' ROM
                                         G.         Schepers                 -    ReDirp.~~




 1   THE    T () X [ C SUR S '[' A N C        ft~   ?

 2   A.       100 PERCEN'r.

 J   Q.      AND     WHAT WOULD                         THE          PKOPORTIUNAL               MORTALITY             RATIO

 4   BE    FOR   THE      EN T I R 1';        P LAN T                D YIN G ft'R 0 M T HAir 0 N E

 5   H A V I N GIN eRE AS ft:; D           In: A 'I' H         }<'   R () M rr HAT      '}' 0 X Ie    SUB S '1' A NeE

 6   G I V E NTH A T THE Y A IdJ                        DIE DIN              AN    EX P IJ 0 S ION?            WOULDN'T

 7   IT    BE ONE-ONE THOUSANDTH?

 8   A.      r'OR    'J'H r~     BALA Ne E I T WOULD                              BE    ZERO         BE;CAU S E NON E

 9   OFT HEM        DIE 0        0 F'    'T H E         'r 0 x J     C    MAT E R I A L •       THEY        ))Ir~D    OF

10   THE    EXPLOSION.

11   Q.      DOCTOR,             IF      WE         TOOK             ALL     OF THE          PEOPLE                   I'D

12   LIKE    YOU     TO ASSUME                      FOR       A MOMENT,                 WE TOOK ALL OF                  THE

13   PEOPLE THAT WERE                      EVER             INVOLVED               IN    ANY OF THESE

14   STUDIES        THAT CAME                 FROM                           MARKED          FROM THE          DEFENSE

15   EXHIBITS.            IF       WE     TOOK              ALL OF THOSE                     NUMBERS         AND      ADDED

16   THEM    UP,     AND         LET'S              JUST             ASSUME        WE    CAME OUT WITH

17   50,000      PEOPLE,                AND         LET'S                ASSUME        NOT    A SINGLE ONE

18   EVER    DIED      FROM             MESOTHELIOMA,                            WOULD       THAT      PROVE         WHAT

19   CAUSED      MR.     HILL'S               DEATH?

20   A.      NO.       HE        STILL DIED OF MESOTHELIOMA.

21   Q.      AND THE             PEOPLE                 WHO          DIED OF           LUNG CANCER,             THEY

22   WEREN'T ALIVE TO DIE OF                                         A DIFFKRENT DISEASE?

23   A.      T HAT'S           COR R E C '1' •

24                     MR.         SCHACH'l'MAN:                           OBJECTION,                YOUR    HONOR.

25   BEYOND THE          SCOPE.
                                  G.       Schepers -           ReDirect                  64



 1                   'r H l': CO U R 'r :     1 ' IJ I,    PER M 1 '[' 1 'I' •

 2                   MR.     Me    CON N E L lJ :         'l'HANK YOU.

 3   BY   MR.   MC CONNELL:

 4   Q.     AND ']' HE     P fr~ 0 P LEW HOD         lED FRO MOT HER FOR MSOP'

 5   CANCER,     I   BELIEVE YOU TESTIFIED YESTERDAY,                                AREN'T

 6   ALIVE TO DIE F'ROM MESOTHEI,IOMA?

 7   A.     'l'HAT'S CORRECT.                 YOU ELIMINATE THEM                   FROM

 8   YOU ELIMINATE MESOTHELIOMA FROM THE DIFFERENT CAUSES

 9   BE C AUSE THE Y D] ED O}"               SO MET H IN GEld, E .

10   Q.     AND,     DOCTOR,           1    THINK YOU MENTIONED YESTERDAY

11   THAT MESOTHEI,IOMA                         THAT ASBESTOS OVERWHELMS                       ITS

12   BODIES     DEFENSE MECHANISMS                        IF GIVEN        IN SUFFICIENT

13   QUANTITY AND GIVEN THE                     INDIVIDUAL'S                SUSCEPTIBILITY?

14                   MR.     SCHACHTMAN:                  OBJECTION.             OBJECTION.

15                   'J'HE COURT:             LEADING?

16                   MR.     SCHACHTMAN:                  YES.

17                   MR.    MC CONNELL:                    r'LL REPHRASE IT.

18                   THE COURT:               PLEASE.

19   BY MR.     MC CONNELL:

20   Q.     DOC TOR,       DO YO LJ R E CAL 1, MY QUE S T ION TOY 0 U

21   YESTERDAY TO EXPLAIN TO THE LADIES AND GENTLEMEN OF

22   THE JURY WHAT THE NOTION OF                            INDIVIDUAL

23   SUSCEPTIBILITY            IS?

24   A.     YES.

25   Q.     AND TAKING            INTO ACCOUNT THAT NOT[ON OF
                                  G.    ::; C h e per R    -   t<   e   I)   ire c       t.



 1   1 ND 1 V 1 D UA r
                     I    SUS C F; P '[' I B I L I 'J' Y rCA N YOU              g    X P IJ A I N T a    'I'   HE

 2   LADIES AND GENTLEMEN OF THE JUKY WHAT A DOSE

 ]   RESPONSE RELATIONSHIP                    IS?

 4                       MR.    SCHACH'rMAN:              OBJECTION,                          YOUR HONOR.           1

 5   DIDN'T ASK AT ALL ABOUT                      INDIVIDUAL SUSCEPTIBILITIES

 6   IN MY CROSS.

 7                                                        HE D I        lJ N ' 'I'   r        BUT HEW 8 NT

 8   INTO LENGTH OF EXPOSURES                       REGARDING THE INDIVIDUALS

 9   THAT WERE STUDIED AND THAT'S THE POINT THAT I'M

10   GETTING TO.

11                       THE COURT:          IF     IT RELATES TO ANY MATTER

12   THAT DEALT WITH THE CROSS EXAMINATION,                                                   THE COURT'S

13   GOING TO PERMIT IT.                   IT WOULD BE PROPER REDIRECT

14   EXAMINATION.

15                       MR.   SCHACH'I'MAN:              YOUR HONOR,                          BUT I    DIDN'T

16   TOUCH DOSE RESPONSE AND I                       DIDN'T GO INTO INDIVIDUAL

17   SUSCEPTIBILITY.

18                       MR.   MC CONNEI,L:               THAT'S MY                      POINT.         HE

19   DIDN'T BRING THAT UP.

20                       'fHE COURT:         YOU MAY PROCEED.

21                       MR.   MC CONNELL:                THANK YOU.

22   BY MR.      Mceo NNE lJ I, :

23   Q.      DOCTOR,           IS MESOTHELIOMA A DOSE RESPONSE

24   DISEASE?

25   A.      'I' HAT HAS NOT H g ENE NT r R I<~ IJ 't                   E S 0[' A B J, ISH ED.           I 'P
                                           G.     S~hRperS                    -     ReoirR~t                          66


    1   0 C CUR S     S0    R A R .I'~ Lye 0 M PAR            ~D     '1' ()       0 'r H "~R    'T' H I N(; S    T H A'J' 0 cell R

    2   AND   .['1'   0   C CUR SIN S U C HAN                      U N £t: X P g C 'I' F. D       MAN N gR.           1 'f'   CAN

    J   OCCUR TWO YEARS                    AFTER             YOU     WERE FIRST EXPOSED AND                                    IT

    4   CAN OCCUR           60 YEARS              AFTER            YOU'RE               FIRST EXPOSED.                        I'r

    5   OCCURS        IN PEOPI,E WI'1'H                      I,TT'J'IJE EXPOSURF: AND                            IT OCCURS

    6           DOESN'T OCCUR                     IN         PEOPLE WITH                       A WHOLE LOT OF

    7   F:XPOSURE.           THAT A DOSE RESPONSE DOES NOT SEEM TO

    8   APPLY TO MESOTHELIOMA,                                BUT WE DON'T KNOW                             I    REALI,Y.

    9   Q.      OKAY.            B U l' C E R T A I N L Y THE                       P E () P L E,      FOR       INS TAN C £0;      ,


10      IN THE STUDY THAT COUNSEL                                    POINTED OUT TO YOU

11      REGARlJING THE YEARS                           OF'    THEIR EMPLOYMENT                              IN    TERMS OF'

12      DYING FROM ANY CAUSE,                                ISN'T            IT TRUE THAT THE                        LATENCY

13      PERIOD        IN MESO'I'HELIOMA                       IS     USUAI.,IJY,                AS     YOU'VE

14      TESTIFIED HERE THIS                            MORNING,                   MANY         YEARS,           CORRECT?

1   ~   A.      YES,        SIR.

16                          MR.     SCHACHTMA.N:                        OBJECTION,                     YOUR HONOR.

1 7 M R.      MC CON NE IJ L HAS N 'T ASK E D A SIN G 1, E                                           NO '1' -   LEA DIN G

18      QUEs'rION.           I    DON'T WANT TO BE ON MY FEET ALL THE

19      TIME.

20                          THE COURT:                       IT    IS         A LEADING QUESTION.

21      JUST AS WELL ASK THE DOCTOR WHAT                                                  IS      LATENCY PERIOD

22      WITHOUT SUGGESTING THE ANSWER.

23                          MR.     Me CON N E I. i. :                  YES,            SIR.

24      BY MR.        MC CONNELL:

        Q.      DOC 'r 0 R,       T H ~;    0 N f.<~    STU D Y T H A 'r C 0 U N S E L                      REI:" ERR E fl 'N")         I
                                             ~.    Scheper~             -    Reuirect                      67



    1   I      BEL I EVE        T 'r   WAS    'f' H g   N Ii; WH(HJ S E S 'T' U [) Y,       DO <:'r 0 R - -

    2   A.            YES.

    3   Q.                 COUNSEL ASKED YOU ABOUT THE 13,000 PEOPLE

    4   STUDIED             IN THE NEWHOUSE STUDY.                             AND      I    BELIEVE YOU

    5   READ,           DID YOU NOT,               '{'HA'r A'], THE REQUES'T' OF COUNSEL ON

    6   PAGE                   ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THAT ARTICLE,                                          1 '0

    7   LIKE TO REFER                   YOU       TO THE SECOND SENTENCE.                              I   BELIEVE

    8   YOU NOTED TO THE LADIES                              AND GENTLEMEN OF THE JURY

    9   THAT THAT BODY OF                         PEOPLE STUDIED                 INCLUDED             PEOPLE,

10      ALL THE PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN EMPLOYED UP TO                                                     '79,

11      CORRECT?

12      A.            YES.

13                             MR.      SCHACHTMAN:                OBJECTION,                YOUR HONOR.

14                             'rHE COUR'l':             WHAT'S THE              BASTS OF THE

15      OBJECTION?

j   6                          MR.     SCHACHTMAN:                 LEADING.

17                                                       IT IS          LEADING.             COUNSE.L,          YOU

18      HAVE TO REFRAME YOUR QUESTIONS AND                                           POSE THEM IN THE

19      FORM OF QUESTIONS RATHER THAN LEADING,                                                 EVEN THOUGH

20      1'1'   I   S REDIRECT.               I,EADING,         UNFORTUNATELY,                    [S   PERMITTED

21      ON CROSS EXAMINATION                            BUT NOT CROSS OR REDIRECT.

22                             MR.     Me CONNEIJi,:                I'M SORRY.

23                             THE COURT:                YOU MAY             MAKE REFERH:NCE TO WHArf'

). 4    WAS         PRE V IOU S i, Y '1' F: S 'I' 1 F' lED     '1' 0,       BUT THE N YO II MUS T PO S E

25      YOU R QUE S T ION              B lJ T NO '1'     BY 1 N D .r C A'1' I NG '1' H E AN S WE R 'r HAT
                                         G.   Schepers       -    ReDirRct            68


     1   YOU EXPECT TO RECEIVE.

     2                        MR.    MC CONNF:LIJ:       T       APOL,OGIZf<~,   YOUR HONOR.

     3   I'M JUST TRYING TO SAVE TIME AND GET TO THE EXACT

     4   POINT.

     5                        THF~   COUR'l':    APPROPRIAT~           AND PROPER

     6   0 B J E C If ION .

     7                        MR.    MC CONNELl. :       I       BELIEVE THAT'S THE LAST

     8   OF MY QUESTIONS,                 YOUR HONOR.

     9                        MR.    SCHACHTMAN:         I       HAVE RECROSS.

10                            THE COURT:         YOU MAY          PROCEI'~D   ON RECROSS

11       BASED ON REDIRECT.

12

13       RECROSS        EXAMINATION

14       BY MR.       SCHACHTMAN:

15       Q.       DR.     SCHEPERS,           THE EDITORIAL YOU WERE REFERRING

16       TO WAS AN UNSIGNED EDITOR1AL WHICH EVERYONE SUSPECTS

17       WAS    BY HUPERT,            CORRECT?

:1   8                        MR.    MC CONNfo;LL:       I'M GOING TU OBJECT.

19                            MR.    MC CONNEl,l.,:      WHAT EDITORIAL,?

20                            THE COURT:        OBJ8C'l'ION.           THIS HAS TO 00

21       WITH REDIRECT EXAMINATION?

22                            MR.    SCHACHTMAN:         YES.

23                            THE COURlf:       WAS THERE ANYTHING ASKED ON

24       REDIRECT EXAMINATION WITH REGARD TO THAT?                                   T HAVE

25       NOR E C 0 IJ l, E C 'I' ION .
                                       ~.       Schepers          -    ReCross                   69


 1                        MR.       :-;CHACHTMAN:                I'LL REFRESH           YOUR

 2   R }t; C 0 1, 1• E c: T ION,    '1' HER E    WAS.

 3                        THr: COURT:                R It; F RAM E YO 11 R QUE S 'J' ION.

 4   BY MR.         SCHACHTMAN:

 5   Q.        DR.       SCHEPERS,              DO YOU RECALL DISCUSSING ON

 6   REDIRECT EXAMINATION AN EDITORIAl,                                      IN THE AMERICAN

 7   MEDICAL ASSOCIATION JOURNAL?

 8   A.        YES,       SIR.

 9   Q.        AND THAT EDITORIAL WAS                             IN 1949?

10   A.        RIGHT.

11   Q.        I    THINK YOU SAID 1944,                          BUT    IT WAS       1949?

12   A.        THERE WAS             NO MENTION OF MESOTHELIOMA                               BECAUSE    IN

13   THOSE         DAYS MESOTHELIOMA                      WAS     CLASSIFIED AS               WITH    LUNG

14   CANCERS.             THERE WAS NO SEPARATE COD1NG FOR                                     IT.

15   Q.        DOCTOR,             YOU'RE THE ONLY PERSON ALIVE WHO WAS A

16   DIRECTOR OF SARANAC LAKE AT ONE TIME?

17   A.        YES,       SIR.

18   Q.        THERE ARE OTHER                    PHYSICIANS,             HOWEVER,            WHO WERE

19   AT THAT FACILITY AND WHO ARE                                     STILL ALIVE?

20   A.        THERE ARE SOME LEFT.                              THERE'S       DR.    GEORGE WRIGHT

21   OU'1' IN DENVER.                  DR.      ROGER MITCHELL OUT IN DENVER.

22   THERE:        WAS    DR.      MORRIS         WHO'S          IN    PORTLAND,        OREGON.         DR.

23   PRATT WHO'S              DOWN       IN DURHAM.                   THOSE,     1   'rHJNK,     ARI:'; 'rHE

24   0 N EST HA'Ii ARE A 1, I V to;             S 'I' I I. L••

25   Q.        YOU SAID 'rHAT YOU Wfo;RF:                         A FAC'I'     Wl'PNft~:-;S   ABOU'l' 80
                                   G.   Schepers       -    ReCross           70


 1   PERCENT OF THE TIME?

 2   A.         WHAT?

 3   Q.         80 PERCENT OF THE TIME?

 4   A.         OF WHAT?

 5   Q.         A FACT WI1'NESS?

 6   A.         YES.        I   THINK   SO.

 7   Q.         AND    IN THOSE CASES THOUGH YOU ARE STILL

 8   COMPENSATED $300 AN HOUR                    TO COME TO COURT AS          A FACT

 9   WITNESS?

10   A.         YES,       SIR.

11   Q.         AND    IN THOSE OTHER           PERCENTAGE OF CASES THERE'S

12   USUALLY A DIAGNOSTIC QUESTION?

13   A.         RIGHT.

14   Q.         AND YOU UNDERSTAND THERE'S                    NO DIAGNOSTIC      ISSUE

15   IN THIS          CASE?

16   A.         J    WAS    NOT REQUIRED TO MAKE A DIAGNOSIS.                    I

17   LOOKED AT THE TISSUES                    AND MATERIALS ON MR.         HILL,         BUT

18   I    WAS       NOT REQUIRED TO WRITE A REPORT.

19   Q.         ONE    LAST QUESTION.            DR.       SCHEPERS,   TO YOUR

20   KNOWLEDGE,            NONE OF      TH~    ASB~STOS       FACTORIES THAT         r

21   DISCUSSED WITH               YOU ON CROSS         EXAMINATION HAVE       BLOWN

22   UP,    HAVE THEY?

23   A.         HAVE WHAT?

24   Q.         HAVE       BLOWN UP?

25   A.         THERE'S         SOMETHING      I'M MISSING.
                                     G.    schepers -     KeCross                            7 1



 1      Q.    'T' 0    YOU R KNOW I JED G E:,   HAV   E ANY     0 1"       'r H E A S B E S 'l' 0   S


 2      FACTOKIES THAT WE                 DI~CUSSRD    ON CROSS              EXAMINATION

 3      BLOWN UP SUCH THAT FURTHER --

 4      A.    YOU MEAN           ~XPLODED?         NO,    NO.          I     KNOW OF NONE

 5      THAT DID.

 6                        MR.    SCHACHTMAN:          THAT'S ALL I                 HAVE.

 7                       THE COUR'r:          YOU'RE EXCUSED,                  DOCTOR.

 8                       MR.     MC CONNELlJ:         ONE QUESTION,                  YOUR HONOR.

 9                       THE COURT:           YOU MAY ASK IT.

10                       MR.     MC CONNE [d.:        THANK YOU,               YOUR HONOK.

11

12      BY MR.        MC CONNELL:

13      Q.    DOCTOR,           WHY IS      IT YOU LOOKED AT THE TISSUE

1 4 M ATE R I A 1J      B E FOR E: AG R EEL NG TOT EST 1 F Y HER E ?

15                       MR.     SCHACHTMAN:          OBJEC'rION.

16                       THE COURT:          OBJECTION SUSTAINED.

17                       THE WITNESS:           YOU MEAN THESE?

18                       THE COUR'r:          JUST A MOMENT.                  OB;fECTJON

19      SUSTAINED.          ANYTHING FURTHER?

20                       MR.     MC CONNELL.:         MAY I     KNOW THE BASIS OF

21      THE OBJECTION SO              I   MAY ARGUE IT?

22                       MR.     SCHACHTMAN:          BEYOND THE SCOPE: OF MY

23      REDIRECT.

24                       THE COUR 'I':       ONLY ON REDIRECT.

25                       MR.    Me    CONNEL•.L:      I'T'S   HIS QUI!:S'I'1.0N,               YOUR
                                                                                   72



  1    HONOR.

  2                 THJ:t; COUkT:         OBJECTION SUSTAINED.

  3                 MR.    MC CONNELL,:           YES,       SIR.

  4                 THE COURT:            YOU'RE EXCUSED,             DOCTOR.           THANK

  5    YOU.

  6                 'rHE WITNESS:            THANK YOU,         SIR.

  7                             (WITNESS       EXCUSED)

  8                 THE COURT:            WE' I. L T A K E () U R M0 R N I NG R F~ C E S S

  9    NOW.

10                  MR.    MC CONNELL.:           THANK YOU,          YOUR HONOR.

11                                (RECESS)

12                              (JUl<Y    ENTERS)

13                  rpHE COURT:           WHAT WE'RE GOING 'I'() DO,                IJADIES

14     AND GENTLEMEN,          CONTJNUE AND COMPLETE THE REMAINDER

15     OF THE CROSS       EXAMINATION OF DR.                 SPIRN WHICH        YOU HAD

16     HEARD UP TO A CERTAIN POINT.                    IT MAY        EXTEND BEYOND

17     THE 12:30    POINT AND UP '1'0 MAYBE ONE O'CLOCK,                           BUT

18     WE'LL GO STRAIGHT THROUGH TO THAT                       POINT.

19                  ASS 00 N ASIT'S 0 V E R WI ']' H,                WE' JJ I, AD J 0 URN

;),0   FOR THE REMAINDER OF THE DAY.                     I    HOPE    YOU    CAN

21     TOLERATE GOING          A HALF HOUR        INTO YOUR          LUNCH HOUR OR

22     WHATEVER    IT MAY BE.            I'D APPRECTA'PE YOUR               INDUI,(H~NCE;,



23     OKAY?

;),4            (VIDEO    O~    DR.   SPIRN     COMM~NCED           AT 11:20 A.M.)

25        (TAPE CONCLUDED AT 12:45 P.M.                        COURT     AD,JOURNED)
                                                          7.J,




 1



 3

 4

 5

 6

 7                C E R T I    F I   CAT    ION

 8

 9                I,    L,lNDA SWITZER,   A CERTIF'IED

10   SHORTHAND REPORTER      AND NOTARY    PUBLIC FOR    THE

11   STATE OF NEW JERSEY,      DO HEREBY CERTIFY THAT THE

12   FOREGOING   IS    A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCKIPT OF MY

13   STENOGRAPHIC NOTES.

14

15

16

17       DATE                        SWITZER,
                               CRRTIFfED SHORTHAND REPORTER
18                             LICENSE NO. XI00660

19

20

21

22

23

24

				
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