Kaplan Live Online Employer Meeting

							Meeting       Kaplan Live Online Employer meeting

Date   5 October 2011

Venue Kaplan Glasgow

Present
Steve Freer              CIPFA                                   (Chair)
Adrian Pulham            CIPFA
Eileen Cummins           CIPFA
Jeremy Bodey             Head of Kaplan Live Online              Via Webex
Heather Gough            Kaplan Live Online tutor
Sarah McHenry            Head of Kaplan Glasgow
Employers
Ronnie Irkskine          Vice Chair, CIPFA Scottish Branch
Robin Baker              East Ayrshire Council
Kirsty Stanners          Glasgow City Council
Gillian Houston          Chair, CIPFA Scottish Branch
Fiona Naylor             Renfrewshire Council
Anne McLure              South Lanarkshire Council
George Manzies           Dundee City Council
Pamela Bell              West Lothian Council
Elizabeth McCue          Fife Council
Rachel Garnett           Audit Scotland
Fiona Mitchell Knight    Audit Scotland
Alan Keatinge            Edinburgh City Council
Susan Jobbins            Scott Moncrieff                         Via Webex
Alison Burns                                                     Via Webex




1.1
Steve Freer welcomed everyone to the meeting and asked those present to
introduce themselves. Steve also introduced those colleagues that were attending
the meeting via Webex. Steve asked Sarah and Heather from Kaplan to describe
their roles. Sarah McHenry, Head of Kaplan Glasgow advised that as a CIPFA
member she was involved in setting up the CIPFA tuition and following the
completion of the Spring Summer 2011 cycle this has been handed over to the
Kaplan Live Online team. Heather Gough is a Kaplan Live online tutor and is
working with Lindsay Hoyle, account a manager for CIPFA and a Kaplan Live
Online tutor.

1.2
Steve drew everyone’s attention to the agenda but advised that issues could be
raised at any time. Items 2 and 3 are looking back and forward in terms of
provision and Steve invited employer’s views on the Spring/Summer 2011 cycle.

1.3
Robin Baker advised that his students had settled into the new approach of
tuition fairly well and the process was not too onerous. There were some IT
issues but these were described as not being a show-stopper and the overall
experience has been positive although some elements e.g. timetabling need
improving.

1.4
Alan Keating raised some issues with the Chat Panel advising that it was a
distraction and it was not suited to asking more complex questions. Heather
gave a brief background to Webex and the Chat Panel advising that it was
introduced in December 2009 to support other accountancy qualifications and
that feedback from CIPFA students and employers has not mirrored the
experiences of other accountancy students. Heather provided a demonstration of
the Chat Panel and showed how it can be minimised by the student if they prefer.
The information is recorded and can be accessed at any time during the course.
The students are encouraged to adopt a flexible approach and use the Chat Panel
as they prefer. Heather commented that the Chat Panel is not used as much by
CIPFA students as other accountancy qualification students but in the second
cycle it is being used more by CIPFA students as they become more comfortable
with this approach. Sarah McHenry advised that she taught ADM in the first cycle
and advised how she saw the use of the Chat Panel increase during the course.
Heather also advised that she liked to encourage a balance between useful and
‘non-useful’ chat. This is to try and create a ‘peer group’ and sometimes some
general chat about how students are finding things etc helps the group to bond
and mimics the physical classroom. Tutors are trained to manage this
appropriately to ensure the right balance is achieved. The tutor can see the Chat
Panel and can address any issues that are being raised during the lesson or can
agree to discuss them during a break.

ACTION: Kaplan to address the flexible use of the Chat Panel in the Live Online
induction.

1.5
Employers were reminded of the Live Online CIPFA Community which is available
for all students to use, ask questions and share experiences. This is monitored
by Live Online tutors who can address any specific issues. Similarly with the Chat
Panel, the uptake of the Live Online Community has been slower by CIPFA
students when compared to other accountancy qualification students but this
increasing in the second cycle. It was agreed that the Live Online Community
offers a flexibility that the classroom cannot as the tutor is available to answer
questions even after the class has finished.

1.6
George Manzies advised that feedback was variable. Whilst the move to Kaplan
Live Online was a big change any teething problems had been addressed quickly
and professionally, and it was felt that some subjects lend themselves to the Live
Online environment but not others. George enquired about the first cycle
examination results.

1.7
A document detailing the Kaplan Live Online pass rates was distributed.
Employers asked for a comparison with CETC pass rates and Adrian advised that
in some subjects Kaplan Live Online pass rates had exceeded the CETC and
national pass rates and vice versa.

1.8
Fiona Mitchell Knight advised that Audit Scotland students had struggled with the
transition in particular the lack of the classroom interaction for some subjects.
Their response has been to set up internal groups to support students in this
aspect. Glasgow City Council advised that they have agreed to send all of their
students to CETC revision courses which they may not have done had students
attended CETC main courses as they had done previously.

1.9
The discussion then moved to whether the Live Online environment was suitable
for all subjects, Leadership and Management was offered as an example and it
was felt that attending this course offered no advantage over reading the learning
materials. Another example was Financial and Performance Reporting because of
its technical nature. Heather advised that she has taught Financial Reporting for
10 years with 8 years in the classroom and 2 year using Live Online and she felt
that the more technical subjects lend themselves to the Live Online environment
in that, they are delivered in almost an identical manner to a physical classroom.
With the less technical discursive subjects, tutors encourage students to use the
Chat Panel and this does require students to be flexible and adapt to a different
learning style. CIPFA students found this transition quite challenging in the first
cycle, but in the autumn courses, the courses seem to be running more smoothly
as students gain more confidence and feel more comfortable with the learning
medium. Kaplan’s examination results (pass-rates) across other qualifications
have shown that results mirror classroom results across all different types of
papers whether technical or discursive papers and as such the Kaplan Live Online
team is confident this methodology works across all disciplines.

1.10
The issue of whether the courses had been condensed was also raised. Sarah
advised that when Kaplan was deciding upon the course length for CIPFA
subjects, this was derived by mapping the CIPFA syllabus against similar subjects
in other accountancy qualifications with some time added on to allow for the
transition. Following the completion of the first cycle, Kaplan held a tutor focus
group to collate feedback regarding course lengths and consequently, there are
no plans to reduce the course lengths that have been set during the first cycle.
Alan shared the flexible way in which Edinburgh CC students were using the
recorded sessions to underpin the learning from the live session in that they
pause the recorded sessions to apply the skills and techniques before continuing
with the session.

1.11
The timetabling of courses was also raised. It was agreed that there was no
pattern to the course timetables and employers asked for an element of routine.

ACTION: Kaplan Live Online to rework the timetable for Spring/Summer 2012
cycle to bring an element of routine to the courses and to avoid the scheduling of
concurrent lectures.

1.12
A number of issues were raised in relation to progress tests and mock
examinations:

Employers felt that the window for completing the progress tests and mocks
examinations was too long and that feedback to students was to slow

Quality of marking was an issue

Some students are not undertaking mock examinations under proper exam
conditions

1.13
Kaplan tutors stress the importance of undertaking mock examinations and that
Kaplan Live Online are using the same mock exams as CETC. With regards to the
quality control process for marking, Kaplan explained that a sample of scripts are
test marked (as with live exams) to ensure the correct and consistent application
of the marking scheme.
ACTION: In response to the issues raised Heather advised that Kaplan would:

Consider reducing the window available for students completing the progress
tests and mock examinations

Communicate with students that progress tests and mock exams are not sent for
marking until the window available has closed and when to expect feedback

Offer Kaplan Glasgow premises for students to undertake mock exams (It was
recognised that not all students will be able to take advantage of this offer).

1.14
Employers asked for more information with regards to Kaplan Live Online offering
the Finance and Management Case Study for the first time in Autumn/winter
2011 cycle. Adrian and Kaplan advised that Kaplan Live Online are using the
same teaching and learning materials as CETC tutors. In addition to this the
tutors and markers are all CIPFA members and are involved in the live FMCS
examination process. Kaplan Live Online students attended a FMCS induction day
at the beginning of the course. Employers queried the number of mock
examinations which was originally set at 4 exams. Kaplan advised that they will
set and mark additional mock cases at an additional cost of £50 per script*.
Employers were conscious that CETC students achieve a high pass rate in the
FMCS exam e.g. 90% in June 2011; Kaplan advised that they achieve a 90% pass
rate for strategy papers within other accountancy qualifications and that they are
confident in the Webex technology and believe they are delivering a learning
solution that is academically sound.

*Post meeting note
For clarification CETC FMCS main course includes 6 mock examinations.
Feedback from 3 of the exams is provided in a small tutorial group with an
element of 1-1 time and feedback for the other 3 mock exams is provided in
written form.

ACTION: For the Spring/Summer 2012 cycle Kaplan has agreed to consider
incorporating the marking of 6 mock exams into the overall fee structure.

1.15
Steve advised that all of the points being made by employers would be captured
in the notes and that the Kaplan Live Online team would be able to reflect and
offer solutions. Steve then asked Adrian to advise the meeting of the review of
Kaplan tuition that CIPFA is undertaking.

1.16
Adrian advised that CIPFA’s Members and Students Development Board (MSDB)
had agreed prior to Kaplan coming on board that a review of the first cycle of
tuition would be undertaken. Julia Attridge, Assistant Director Education and
Membership is undertaking the review which consists of 2 student and employer
surveys; one which was undertaken during the first cycle and one survey since it
had been completed. Feedback from the Scottish Branch, student societies and
individuals was also being fed into the review. A meeting is planned with the
Kaplan Live Online team on 7 October. MSDB is meeting on 20 October when it
will consider the outcomes of the review.

1.17
Alan Keating raised an issue of the visual aspects of Webex i.e. the online
platform and suggested that students could not see everything that was being
written down by the tutor. Heather advised that to investigate further she would
need more specific details so she could access the actual session. As this
information wasn’t available, Heather provided a demonstration of the online
platform and showed employers what students could see during a live and
recorded session and confirmed that there should not be any issues with being
able to see everything the tutor writes.

1.18
Adrian took this opportunity to read out extracts of a statement from Elaine
Lawther, Head of Finance Training & Support Unit, NHS Education for Scotland,
which are shown below

One of the key advantages I was anticipating from a move to CIPFA online
learning was the opportunity to encourage more students, especially those from
non central belt students to consider CIPFA as an option. In 2011, this has
indeed led to increased registrations from students who would not have chosen
CIPFA if this online option had not been available.

With regards to my 4 existing students, three studied with Kaplan and my final
stage student completed her studies with CETC. The three Kaplan students were
all very anxious about this move however their exam results were in line with
expectations and indeed, my Aberdeen student could not be more thankful for the
fact that she did not need to travel to Edinburgh for her studies
,
As an employer, the cost and time savings are considerable. Similarly, access to
CIPFA for remote and rural students, and those for whom traditional classroom
teaching is not helpful, e.g. return to learning individuals with family and other
commitments is vitally important. Our experience in the NHS is that without a
broadening of training opportunities, we face a slow drift away from CIPFA and a
complete takeover by the other institutes

There is a balance to be struck. I think there remain gaps in the learning
environment that need to be addressed but I personally feel that this should be
something that is dealt with collaboratively by CIPFA, Kaplan, employers and the
Students Society. The introduction of a face to face induction, for example,
would be warmly welcomed but we can do more.

The status quo was not an option and we need to move forward positively and
constructively. There will be anxiety from some students to this learning style
but I have been delighted at the response of my two new CIPFA students who
have been introduced to this model recently. We got them to visit the Kaplan
office who then arranged an hour long online induction. The students loved it and
are raring to go. This is the future and we need to look forward to a stronger
CIPFA in Scotland.

1.19
Steve asked for clarification regarding the induction visit to Kaplan Glasgow
Elaine referred to in her statement. Sarah advised that an induction visit can be
offered upon request.        Adrian asked that Kaplan look at CIPFA Scotland
differently in this respect and offered CIPFA’s help in this matter. Kaplan advised
that they would prefer to deliver Inductions through Live Online, so as to
introduce students to the method and let them see it in a ‘relaxed’ environment
where they can play with system and get a feel for how it works. Offering face to
face inductions is possible, and can be provided on request, but Kaplan would
prefer to be consistent with how courses are delivered. Kaplan has delivered Live
Online inductions this sitting and has had really positive feedback from both
students and employers.
1.20
In response to employer concerns regarding the length of time allowed for
feedback, Kaplan advised that an error had occurred in the end of first cycle
course survey and agreed to lengthen the time available for responses for future
surveys.

1.21
Kirsty agreed that students need to take personal responsibility and take
advantage of the opportunities that are presented to them. Gillian, from the
Scottish Branch, agreed that there needs to be more discipline for exams, more
support for progress tests and mock exams and general discipline.

1.22
Kirsty advised that Glasgow CC had invited Clyde Valley employers and their
students to support events in the first cycle course but because other students
and employers were responding positively to the tuition changes they choose not
to attend and they were attended by to the Glasgow students only. The Student
Society had also hoped to set up study groups but the students did not seem to
want to attend if the events were being held in their own time.

1.23
Fiona commented that where CETC had previously co-ordinated networking
events it was now up the employers to do this. Sarah suggested that Kaplan
Glasgow could facilitate networking opportunities amongst CIPFA students. This
was welcomed by employers and Alan suggested an IPDS workshop similar to the
one that Faisal Khan recently delivered to Edinburgh CC students.

1.24
George advised the meeting that Dundee CC was attracted to Kaplan Live Online
tuition because it did not require students to be out of the office at key times and
did not wish to undo this approach to learning. He reminded the meeting that the
issue being discussed at the meeting were for transitional students and he didn’t
want to see the time saved by studying with Kaplan Live Online being eroded by
other sessions. Steve agreed that there is a balance to be struck.

1.25
The meeting received some feedback from one of the employers that had dialled
in. Alison said that her Diploma students were positive about the changes and
asked that mocks exams that were submitted by post were returned by post as
the quality of the scanned feedback was questionable.       Kaplan agreed to
undertake this on request

1.26
Adrian advised the meeting that the new PQ 2012 syllabus was about to be
launched and that students and employers had been advised of the transitional
arrangements. He offered his apologies for not being available to attend the next
meeting of the CIPFA Scottish Branch in October but advised that Julia Attridge
would be attending and as she is leading the Kaplan first cycle review and the
syllabus review she will be able to answer any questions the Branch may have.

1.27
Eileen advised the meeting that the December 2011 exams are being held in 2
centres; Kaplan Glasgow and CIPFA Scotland in Edinburgh. The potential national
strike being called for 30 November clashes with the FMCS examination and, so
as to avoid students having to cross a picket line and some exam venues being
inaccessible to CIPFA, she advised that all exam venues had been booked for
Tuesday 29 November in case CIPFA needed to bring the exam forward. A
meeting with the Chair of the Examination Panel is arranged for the following
week before a decision could be made.

1.28
Employers asked about potential disruption to students due to bad weather.
Eileen advised the meeting that where bad weather does disrupt the exams, then
students will be able to sit examinations in their workplace. An Employer
Examination Pack is being developed which will advise the employers of their
obligations in supporting students sitting their examination in their workplace e.g.
invigilation requirements. An arrangement for putting this process into action will
also be advised. If a student does need to sit their exam in the workplace then
the examination will be made emailed to the nominated member of staff on the
day of the exam. All other examination arrangements must be maintained e.g.
start times.

1.29
Any Other Business

Ronnie advised the meeting that a Skills for Success workshop was being offered
by the Scottish Branch and full details are available on the CIPFA website.

Steve suggested that Kaplan          Live   Online   needs    to   create   stronger
communications with employers

An action plan would be drawn out of the notes of the meeting which employers’
observed would form the platform for the next meeting

Fiona advised there some was confusion about who to contact and Steve agreed
that the notes and Action Plan would include this information.

1.30
Date of next meeting

Adrian advised the meeting that Kaplan Live Online were committed to 2
employer meetings each year and the employers asked that the next meeting is
arranged for February after the December examination results have been
released on Friday 27 January 2012.

1.31
Steve summarised the new arrangements with Kaplan tuition as a journey, the
Kaplan Live Online provision is potentially a very good product which will be
realised when the issues identified at this meeting have been resolved.

1.32
Ann asked Adrian about student registrations in 2011. Adrian advised that it is a
challenging time and that as all employers know training budgets are under
pressure which is presenting itself in the challenge to the Certificate level intake.
December 2011 examination entry remains healthy and a recent incentive
campaign has seen a positive reaction from the market.
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