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              L-00000D-07-0682-00136               VOL .     IlllYlllllll1ll1lIIllllll
                                                               0000081266

 1           BEFORE THE ARIZONA POWER PLANT AND TRANSMISSION

 2                                  LINE SITING COMMITTEE

 3   IN THE MATTER OF THE APPLICATION   )
     OF ARIZONA PUBLIC SERVICE COMPANY, )
 4   IN CONFORMANCE WITH THE            ) Docket No.
     REQUIREMENTS OF ARIZONA REVISED    ) L-00000D-07-0682-00136
 5   STATUTES §40-360, et seq., FOR     )
     A CERTIFICATE OF ENVIRONMENTAL     ) Case No. 136
 6   COMPATIBILITY AUTHORIZING THE      )
     SUNDANCE TO PINAL SOUTH 230kV      )
 7   TRANSMISSION PROJECT, WHICH        )
     ORIGINATES AT THE SUNDANCE         )
 8   GENERATING STATION, SECTION 2 ,    )

 9
     TOWNSHIP 6 SOUTH, RANGE 7 EAST,
     AND TERMINATES AT THE FUTURE PINAL)
                                        )         r ’
                                                      . ‘7
     SOUTH SUBSTATION, SECTION 30,      )
10   TOWNSHIP 6 SOUTH, RANGE 8 EAST,    )
     IN PINAL COUNTY, ARIZONA.          1
11

12

13   At:         Casa Grande, Arizona
14   Date:       January 23, 2008

15   Filed:     ;JA           2008
16
                   REPORTER’S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
17
                                           VOLUME I1
18
                              (Pages 235 through 498)
19

20                                          ARIZONA REPORTING SERVICE, INC.
                                                            Court Reporting
21                                                                Suite 502
                                                  2200 North Central Avenue
22                                              Phoenix, Arizona 85004-1481
23
     OR GINAL                                          By: MICHELE E. BALMER
                                                           Certified Reporter
24   Prepared for:                                      Certificate No. 50489
25   LINE SITING COMMITTEE



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              FOR
           INTERNAL
                  &
        INTERAGENCY
             USE
            ONLY


  Pursuant to the contract with Arizona
  Reporting Service all transcripts are
   available electronically for internal
            agency use only.
Do not copy, forward or transmit outside
 the Arizona Corporation Commission.
                  ~   ~~




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                                                                    236


                           INDEX TO EXAMINATIONS

     WITNESSES                                               PAGE

     KENDA POLL10 (Continued)

         Direct Examination Continued by Mr. Acken             243
         Examination by Member Eberhart                        254
         Examination by Member Smith                           258
         Examination by Member Rasmussen                       261
         Examination by Member Rich                            264
         Further Direct Examination by Mr. Acken               266
         Cross-Examination by Mr. Robertson                    271
         Cross-Examination by Mr. Bhakta                       293
         Cross-Examination by Mr. Hains                        295
         Redirect Examination by Mr. Acken                     298
         Further Examination by Member Smith                   300
         Further Examination by Member Eberhart                311
10
     THOMAS MARTIN
11
        Direct Examination by Mr. McGinnis                     314
12      Examination by Member Haenichen                        326
        Examination by Member Smith                            333
13      Examination by Member Eberhart                         335
        Cross-Examination by Mr. Robertson                     337
14      Further Examination by Member Smith                    345
        Cross-Examination by Mr. Rich                          350
15      Cross-Examination by Mr. Hains                         351
        Cross-Examination by Mr. Campbell                      355
16      Examination by Member Eberhart                         368
        Further Cross-Examination by Mr. Robertson             372
17      Further Cross-Examination by Mr. Campbell              373
        Examination by Member Wong                             374
18
     JACOB ROBERTS
19
        Direct Examination by Mr. Rich                         380
20      Cross-Examination by Mr. Robertson                     384
        Examination by Member Smith                            389
21      Examination by Member Wong                             393
        Redirect Examination by Mr. Rich                       396
22
     MANNY GONZALEZ
23
        Direct Examination by Mr. Robertson                    401
24      Examination by Member Smith                            446
        Examination by Chairman Boucek                         451
25      Examination by Member Eberhart                         453


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 1                   INDEX TO EXAMINATIONS (Cont'd)

 2   WITNESSES                                                     PAGE
 3   MANNY GONZALEZ

 4         Examination by Member Wong                               464
           Cross-Examination by Mr. Rich                            467
 5         Cross-Examination by Mr. Hains                           469
           Cross-Examination by Mr. Campbell                        471
 6         Redirect Examination by Mr. Robertson                    478
 7
     TERRY HAIFLEY
 8
           Direct Examination by Mr. Robertson                      482
 9         Examination by Member Rich                               485
           Examination by Member Wong                               486
10

11
                             INDEX TO EXHIBITS
12
     NO.      DESCRIPTION                       IDENTIFIED       ADMITTED
13
     Pinal-1    Summary of Pinal County's
                       ~




14              Anticipated Testimony and
                Exhibits                               29           481
15
     Pinal-2    Powerpoint Presentation                29           481
16
     Pinal-3    Resolution of Pinal County
17              Board of Supervisors                   29           481
18   Pinal-4    Brochure re Pinal County
                Fairgrounds                            30           481
19

20   Committee-1
              Electrical District No. 2
21            Service Area                         399              400
22   Committee-2
              Electrical District No. 2
23            Planned 69kv Service Area            399              400
24   Roberts- 1
               Map of Roberts Property -
25             APS Figure 4                        392              393


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 1             BE IT REMEMBERED that the above-entitled and

 2   numbered matter came on regularly to be heard before the

 3   Power Plant and Transmission Line Siting Committee, at The

 4   Property Conference Center, 1251 West Gila Bend Highway,

 5   Casa Grande, Arizona, commencing at 9:30 a.m. on the 23rd

 6   day of January, 2008.

 7
     BEFORE:   JENNIFER A. BOUCEK, Committee Chairman
 8

 9             DAVID L. EBERHART, Arizona Corporation
                  Commission
10             PAUL RASMUSSEN, Arizona Department of
                  Environmental Quality
11             JACK HAENICHEN, Arizona Department of Commerce
                  Energy Office
12             JOY RICH, Appointed Member
               WAYNE SMITH, Appointed Member
13             MIKE PALMER, Appointed Member
               JEFF McGUIRE, Appointed Member
14             BARRY WONG, Appointed Member

15

16   APPEARANCES:

17   For Arizona Public Service Company:

18       LEWIS AND ROCA, L.L.P.
         By Messrs. Thomas H. Campbell and Albert H. Acken
19       40 North Central Avenue
         Phoenix, Arizona 85004
20

21   For the Arizona Corporation Commission:

22      Mr. Charles H. Hains,
        Staff Attorney, Legal Division
23      1200 West Washington Street
        Phoenix, Arizona 85007
24

25


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     APPEARANCES:

     For Pinal County:

         Mr. Lawrence V. Robertson, Jr.
         Attorney at Law
         P.O. Box 1448
         Tubac, Arizona 85646

         -and-
 6
         OFFICE OF THE PINAL COUNTY ATTORNEY
 7       By Mr. Chris M. Roll, Chief Civil Deputy
         31 North Pinal Street, Building D
 8       P.O. Box 887
         Florence, Arizona 85232
 9

10   For Lonesome Valley Farms Limited Partnership, Jacob
     Roberts, and Gail Robertson:
11
         ROSE LAW GROUP, P.C.
12       By Messrs. Court S. Rich and Suraj Bhakta
         6613 North Scottsdale Road, Suite 200
13       Scottsdale, Arizona 85250

14
     For Electrical District No. 2:
15
        SALMON, LEWIS & WELDON, P.L.C.
16      By Mr. Mark A. McGinnis
        2850 East Camelback Road, Suite 200
17      Phoenix, Arizona 85016

18

19                                  MICHELE E. BALMER
                                    Certified Reporter
20                                  Certificate No. 50489
21

22

23

24

25


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 1            CHMN. BOUCEK:    Good morning, everyone.       Let's go

 2   ahead and begin our second day of the hearings.         We'll go

 3   on the record now at 9:30 a.m.

 4            Before we go to the - - continue with the

 5   testimony of the Applicant's last witness, I just want to

 6   make sure that there are no preliminary or procedural

     matters to cover before the witness begins her testimony

     again.

              MR. ROBERTSON:    Chairman Boucek.

10            CHMN. BOUCEK:    Yes, Mr. Robertson.

11            MR. ROBERTSON:    Thank you.     I have two.

12            I would like the record to reflect that earlier

13   this morning Pinal County passed out copies of each of the

14   exhibits to the Members of the Siting Committee, and also

15   to counsel for each of the parties.       They are Pinal-1

16   through 4.

17            And also, yesterday you may recall that I

18   requested that Mr. Campbell during my cross-examination, I

19   believe, of Mr. Spitzkoff, that he provide me with the

20   dollar amount of rate base established by the Arizona

21   Corporation Commission for Arizona Public Service Company

22   in the rate case that was decided last year, and

23   Mr. Campbell has very graciously provided that information

24   overnight.

25            And, if it's appropriate, I would like to request


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 1   you take official notice of the Decision No. 69663, which

 2   was issued on June 28, 2007.         In that decision the Arizona

 3   Corporation Commission established a rate base for Arizona

 4   Public Service Company of $4.1 billion.              Thank you.

 5            CHMN. BOUCEK:      Thank you, Mr. Robertson.

 6            Mr. Acken, would you like to resume the - -

 7            MEMBER WONG:      Madam Chair, do we need to take

 8   role for purposes of - - quorum purposes?

 9            CHMN. BOUCEK:      Thank you, Mr. Wong.

10            Wayne Smith.

11            MEMBER SMITH:      Here.

12            CHMN. BOUCEK:      Jeff McGuire.

13            (No response. )

14            CHMN. BOUCEK:      He just walked in.         Let the record

15   reflect that Mr. McGuire just entered the hearing room.

16            Mike Palmer.

17            (No response. )

18            CHMN. BOUCEK:      David Eberhart.

19            MEMBER EBERHART:      Here.

20            CHMN. BOUCEK:      Paul Rasmussen.

21            MEMBER RASMUSSEN:         Here.

22            CHMN. BOUCEK:      Jack Haenichen.

23            MEMBER HAENICHEN:         Here.

24            CHMN. BOUCEK:      Joy Rich.

25            MEMBER RICH:      Here.


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I


~@    1            CHMN. BOUCEK:     Mike Whalen.

      2            (No response. )

      3            CHMN. BOUCEK:     Barry Wong.

      4            MEMBER WONG:      Present.

      5            CHMN. BOUCEK:     Gregg Houtz.

      6            (No response. )

      7            CHMN. BOUCEK:     There being a quorum present, we

      8   will begin the proceedings again in the Line Siting

      9   Committee Case No. 136.

     10            Mr. Acken, you left off yesterday with the

     11   testimony of Ms. Pollio, and would you like to continue at

     12   this time?

     13            MR. ACKEN:   Yes, thank you, Chairman Boucek.

     14            We left off yesterday afternoon at the end of the
     15   discussion of the rationale for the preferred route,

     16   specifically in the southern corridor.

     17            On the screen Tyler is pulling up LS-62 and

     18   RS-45.

     19            Committee Member Rich had asked a number of

     20   questions concerning the subdivision which we're referring

     21   to as the Tierra Grande subdivision, which is located

     22   south of Earley Road and west of 11 Mile Corner Road.          And

     23   so what we would like to do is address Committee Member

     24   Rich's questions before we move on to the new topic.

     25


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                             KENDA POLLIO,

     called as a witness on behalf of the Applicant, having

     been previously duly sworn by the Certified Reporter to

     speak the truth and nothing but the truth, was examined

     and testified as follows:



 7                    DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED

 8

 9       9.    (BY MR. ACKEN)   Ms. Pollio, can you respond to

10   Ms. Rich's questions concerning the number of houses in

11   the Tierra Grande development, the distance from the

12   closest house to that Earley Road alignment, as well as

13   the density of the development itself?

14       A.    Yes.   On RS-45 you can see south of the Earley

15   Road alignment the Tierra Grande subdivision.        We went

16   ahead and measured, basically, the half section to the

17   south of the Earley Road alignment.        This generally

18   encompasses the entire subdivision.

19             The number of homes in the subdivision is about

20   177.   The number of acres in that area outlined by the

21   half section to the south, Tweedy Road to the east          --   or
22   the west - - I apologize   --    11 Mile Corner to the east, is

23   approximately 280 acres.        That would then mean that the

24   houses sit on approximately 0.6-acre lots in the

25   subdivision.


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 1               We also talked about some of the siting criteria
 2   that we looked at, and one of those is houses within or

 3   residences within a half mile of the centerline of the

 4   alignments.       Within a half mile of the Earley Road

 5   alignment to the south, there are about 244 homes in the

 6   Tierra Grande subdivision and in the subdivision that is

 7   to the east of Earley Road just south of the canal and the

 8   Earley Road alignment.      So that is 177 homes in Tierra

 9   Grande, 65 homes east of 11 Mile Corner.

10               The distance to the closest house in the Tierra
11   Grande subdivision is about 330 feet.         That is located in

12   this area where the canal somewhat goes to the north and

13   then back to the south, east again, and there would be a

14   home that would be located at the     --     to the closest point

15   of that Earley Road alignment, as I mentioned, 330 feet.

16       Q.     Thank you.    If there are no further questions on

17   that, we are going to shift to a different topic.

18              Would you next describe the environmental

19   resource analyses that you conducted as part of the

20   application for this project, and start with land use.

21      A.      Yes.    On LS-63, what I would like to do is walk
22   through the CEC application and the environmental exhibits

23   that are included in our application.         For land use, land

24   use is covered predominantly in Exhibit A of our

25   application, recreational land use is covered in



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     1   Exhibit F , and planned developments is included in

     2   Exhibit H of the application.

     3            As you can see on RS-46, this includes a map of

     4   the existing land use, what is actually out there on the

     5   ground in the project study area and along the preferred

     6   and alternate routes.

     7            The existing land use in the area is

     8   predominantly active agricultural.       There's low density

     9   residential that we've identified.       The low density

    10   residential is depicted by the orange color on RS-46.

    11            There's industrial land use in the area.       That

    12   would include the Sundance facility and the substation

a   13

    14
         facilities along the Pinal South substation to Signal Peak

         substation that we have mentioned throughout testimony.

    15            There are also recreational areas that are

    16   discussed in Exhibit F .   The recreational facilities in

    17   the area include the Tierra Grande golf course, which is

    18   south of the Earley Road alignment, and the Pinal County

    19   Fairgrounds, which is due west of the 11 Mile Corner and

    20   Pinal South substation.

    21            There are also planned land uses in the project

    22   study area.   Planned land uses are described and discussed

    23   in detail in Exhibit H of our application.      RS-47 depicts

    24   the planned area developments that are included within the

a   25   project study area.   For purposes of our analysis and to


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 1   describe the siting criteria that we've used, we broke the

 2   planned area developments down into four categories.            And

 3   those are depicted on the screen on RS-47.

 4            The first is the darker orange color.          Those are

 5   plat approved planned area developments.

 6            The second are, the medium orange color, those

 7   are plat submitted planned area developments.          Those plats

 8   have been submitted to the local jurisdictions.

9             The next is the yellow color.          Those are planned

10   area developments, or PADS, that have been submitted to

11   the jurisdictions.

12            And the fourth category are planned future

13   developments.   These are the yellow hatched patterns that

14   are included on RS-47.

15       Q.   Thank you, Ms. Pollio.

16            Could you describe the other analyses that you

17   conducted for this application?

18      A.    The next exhibit that's included in the CEC

19   application is Exhibit B.      Exhibit B includes

20   environmental reports.   If a project has an environmental

21   impact statement associated with it, the environmental

22   impact statement would be included in this section.

23            This project does not have environmental impact

24   statements associated with it; and, therefore, the

25   environmental reports included in our application include


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 1   the environmental routing study.        This describes the

 2   routing analysis that we conducted and that I testified to

 3   late yesterday afternoon.

 4              The next exhibits include Exhibit C and

 5   Exhibit D.     Exhibit C includes areas of biological wealth.

 6   Exhibit D includes biological resources.

 7              Staff biologists sent letters to Arizona Game and

 8   Fish and U . S .   Fish and Wildlife Service.    We sent letters

 9   to identify if there are any potential threatened or

10   endangered species or special status species that occur

11   within the project study area.

12              Based on the letters that were received from the

13   Arizona Game and Fish and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife

14   Service, the biologists then went out to the project study

15   area, and specifically along the preferred and alternate

16   routes, and confirmed the presence or absence of any

17   species that was listed.        They also evaluated the habitat

18   through habitat reconnaissance and habitat surveys.

19              Based on this information, we can state that

20   there are no significant impacts to threatened or

21   endangered species or other special status species in the

22   project study area, and specifically along the preferred

23   and alternate routes.

24              The letters that we sent to the Arizona Game and

25   Fish and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service are included


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 1   in Exhibit C-1 of our application.

 2       Q.   And that exhibit also includes a response from

 3   the Arizona Game and Fish Department as well?

 4       A.   Yes, it does, and that response letter is also

 5   included in C-1.

 6       Q.   What were the results of your cultural resource

 7   analysis?

 8       A.   Culture resources are described in Exhibit E of

 9   the application.   In similar nature as we did with the

10   biological resources, we went out and conducted a

11   preliminary cultural survey, or a Class 1 survey for the

12   project study area and, again, specifically for the areas

13   of the preferred and alternate alignment.

14            The results of these surveys were included in

15   Exhibit E, and the results were also sent to the State

16   Historic Preservation Office as well as the tribes.         The

17   letters sent to the tribes and any responses we have

18   received are also included in Exhibit E-2.

19            Based on this report, there are no known national

20   register sites impacted.

21       Q.   Thank you.   What additional information is

22   included in Exhibit E?

23       A.   Exhibit E of the CEC also includes visual

24   resources.   I would like to describe the methodology we

25   use for visual resources.      On Exhibit RS-49, includes the


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 1   locations of key observation points in the project study

 2   area that represented areas where the preferred alignment

 3   and the alternate alignment would be viewed.

 4            The general areas that predominantly in this

 5   study area which had the highest amount of viewers were

 6   from residences, transportation corridors, and from the

 7   recreational facilities.    So those were the three main

 8   categories we identified key observation points for.

 9            Once we identified those key observation points,

10   we went out and took photos from those locations.       We then

11   measured elements in the existing landscape for scaling

12   reference.   We created 3-D computer-generated models with

13   the photography, and then we rendered those three models

14   with existing conditions for each one of those KOP

15   locations.

16       Q.   Next, please provide some examples of some of the

17   key observation points that you analyzed.

18       A.   LS-66 and RS-50 represent Key Observation No. 1.

19   You can see this is a location from the closest residence

20   to the preferred alignment along Curry Road.       You can see

21   on RS-50 the existing conditions.       You can see the 12kV

22   line in the foreground.    You can see the Sundance

23   generating facility in the background.

24            On the bottom picture we have simulated in the

25   transmission line structures for the proposed project.


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 1            The next RS    --   I ' m sorry.   LS-67 simulates KOP or

2    Key Observation Point No. 5.        Again, the first one

3    represented from a residential viewer.           This next one

4    represents the preferred alignment from a transportation

 5   corridor or transportation viewers.

 6            This simulation is taken from the Curry - - I ' m
7    sorry.   The Florence Boulevard or Highway 287 alignment

 8   looking towards Curry Road, or the preferred alignment

 9   which is crossing perpendicular across Curry Road.

10            Again, you can see in the top photo the existing

11   conditions.    And in the bottom photo you can see off in

12   the distance the proposed project transmission structures

13   that represent the preferred alignment.

14            The next simulation represents recreational

15   facilities.     LS-68 represents Key Observation Point No. 7 .

16   RS-52 simulates the proposed project.          This photograph was

17   taken in the fairgrounds facility, County Fairgrounds

18   facility.     I t ' s looking to the southwest from the main

19   exhibit hall in the Pinal County Fairgrounds.

20             The top photo represents the existing conditions.

21   In the foreground you can see some light structures.             In

22   the background you can see where the grandstand or the

23   racetrack facility is located.        The bottom photo simulates

24   the proposed project as well as the certificated SRP

25   500/230kv transmission line.


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                     MR. ACKEN:     Thank you.

                     CHMN. BOUCEK:     Mr. Wong.

                     MEMBER WONG:     Ms. Pollio, the simulated condition

         of RS-52    --

                     THE WITNESS:     Yes.

                     MEMBER WONG:     - - that includes the SRP

         anticipated line?

                     THE WITNESS:     Yes, i t does.    We simulated that

         line because it was a certificated facility that we

    10   anticipate being built, and so we wanted to represent - -

    11   again, in the existing condition it's not there, but in

    12   the simulated condition represent what both structures

    13   would look like traversing the fairgrounds.

    14               MEMBER WONG:     So the two poles, right, the two

    15   routes, one would be the SRP anticipated and the other one

    16   would be your proposed on the preferred route?

    17               THE WITNESS:     Exactly.     This is the simulation.

    18               MEMBER WONG:     Thank you.

    19       0.      (BY MR. ACKEN)     A.R.S. 40-340.06 identifies the

    20   factors that the Committee must consider when analyzing an

    21   application for a Certificate of Environmental

    22   Compatibility.      Please summarize your testimony by walking

    23   through the factors found in A.R.S. 40-340.06 that relate

    24   to your analysis.


a   25       A.      Okay.   Let's begin with existing plans of state,


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         local government, and private entities.         The project is

         compatible with land use.     That is included in Exhibit A.

         There are no state plans along the preferred or alternate

         routes, and it crosses a low number of planned area

         developments as described in Exhibit H.

     6            Fish, wildlife, and plant life is the next

     7   statutory factor to be considered.       There are no

    8    significant impacts to fish, wildlife, or plant life, and

    9    this is described in detail in Exhibit D of the

    10   application.

    11            Next, the availability of this site for

    12   recreational purposes consistent with safety regulations.

    13   This is the next statutory factor.       The project minimizes

    14   impacts to the Pinal County Fairgrounds by paralleling the

    15   SRP transmission line.   This is described in Exhibit F of

    16   the application.

    17            The next statutory factor is existing scenic

    18   areas, historic sites, or archaeological sites.         There are

    19   no known significant impacts to scenic or cultural sites,

    20   and this is described in Exhibit E of the application.

    21            The environmental exhibits describe the total

    22   environmental area and the project's compatibility with

    23   the total environmental area.

    24            The last statutory environmental factor is


6   25   protection of areas of unique biological wealth, or


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 1   habitats of rare or endangered species.         There are no

 2   significant impacts to special status species as described

 3   in Exhibit C in our application.

 4              CHMN. BOUCEK:    Mr. Acken, just one moment.

 5              Ms. Pollio, I wanted to ask you about the special

 6   status species, because Game and Fish, I did notice, said

 7   that there are - - the western burrowing owl - -

 8              THE WITNESS:    Yes.

 9              CHMN. BOUCEK:     - - is one species.   They also

10   identified the desert tortoise, but I noticed in the

11   survey that there had been no desert tortoise sighted.          I

12   did notice there were owls sighted, though, on those

13   lands.   You stated the conclusion that there will be no

14   significant impacts, but, obviously, if they are there and

15   there's construction, there will be some impact.

16              Is APS prepared to outline steps that it will

17   take to protect those species in the event they are

18   encountered during the construction process.

19              MR. ACKEN:     Chairman Boucek, if I might, with

20   respect to what APS would be willing to do as far as

21   requirements as part of this application, that's probably

22   a question best suited for Mr. Bernosky as the project

23   manager.    If you're just - - if it's a question as to what
24   kind of measures are typically used, certainly Ms. Pollio

25   with address that.


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                 CHMN. BOUCEK:    It's my understanding that

     Mr. Bernosky may testify again as part of the rebuttal.

     Would it be appropriate for me to talk to him at that time

 4   and question him at that time about those steps?

 5            MR. ACKEN:    We will certainly make him available

 6   for that.

 7               CHMN. BOUCEK:    Thank you very much.

 8       9.      (BY MR. ACKEN)    Ms. Pollio, in your professional

9    opinion, is this project environmentally compatible?

10      A.    Yes.

11       Q.   And does that conclude your testimony here today?

12      A.    Yes.

13            MR. ACKEN:    Ms. Pollio is available for questions

14   from the Committee and cross-examination.

15               CHMN. BOUCEK:    Mr. Eberhart.

16            MEMBER EBERHART:       Thank you.

17

18                                EXAMINATION

19

20       Q.      (BY MEMBER EBERHART)    Yesterday when we were

21   discussing the alternative alignments, you said one key

22   criteria is avoiding within a half mile or so existing

23   residences, but yet you state that - - you stated this

24   morning that the Tierra Grande subdivision has

25   approximately 200 houses within a half mile of the


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 1   preferred alignment.

 2               Does that seem incongruous with what you said

 3   yesterday?

 4             MR. ACKEN:      Chairman Boucek, Committee Member

 5   Eberhart, if I may interject just to clarify the record.

 6   Did you mean the preferred route or the alternate route?

 7             MEMBER EBERHART:      Either one, actually.

 8             MR. ACKEN:     With that in mind, please respond.

 9             THE WITNESS:     We use existing residences as one

10   indicator that we look at in the environmental siting

11   criteria.    Again, if we can avoid existing residences or

12   site alignments to minimize the number of existing

13   residences, that's what we try to do.

14             Additionally, to your point, we also look at

15   residences within a half mile of a particular route.

16   Again, that is one criteria we look at in evaluating

17   routes.

18             What I was referring to yesterday, residences

19   within a half mile of the routes, specifically we looked

20   at and I was discussing the north/south alignments that

21   are predominantly from Sundance down to a point that could

22   connect east/west into the Pinal South substation.       So

23   that is how    --   that's really what we were looking at.

24   However, we also looked at those east/west connectors, to

25   your point.


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     1            Specifically, we selected the preferred alignment

    2    because that had the lowest amount of residences, and it

     3   also followed, you know, from that east/west connector in

     4   the southern corridor area, to clarify, that had the least

     5   number of residences along that piece, and it had the

     6   least number of residences within a half a mile.       And we

     7   felt that minimized the impacts by paralleling the SRP

     8   alignment, versus in the southern corridor the Earley Road

     9   alignment.

    10            We feel both are compatible, because we have to

    11   get from the north/south connectors into the substation in

    12   an east/west fashion.   So it's just one consideration that

    13   we look at.   It does not mean that it's necessarily

    14   incompatible.

    15       Q.   (BY MEMBER EBERHART)    Based on other discussion

    16   yesterday, from Pinal County particularly, they're opposed

    17   to the preferred route going through the fairgrounds.          And

    18   it seemed like there was testimony that APS would not be

    19   opposed to the alternative route, which places the line

    20   within half a mile of 200 homes.

    21            It seems to me that there would be a better

    22   alternative route north of the fairgrounds that does not

    23   impact hardly any homes.   Do you have a response to that?

    24       A.   We did analyze all of the potential routes north.

e   25   I can say that if you were to look at the half - - I ' m


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 1   sorry - - the quarter mile north of the fairgrounds

 2   alignment, there are a number of homes within that quarter

 3   mile.      Not nearly as many as half a mile to the south of

 4   Tierra Grande, but there are residences that you would

 5   actually cut through the properties.

 6                And I can point to that.     This area in this

 7   quarter section, there are homes that abut that quarter

 8   section alignment.        So that is really the reason that that

 9   was not screened as a possible alignment because of the

10   homes actually on that quarter section.

11                Farther to the north is Florence Boulevard or

12   Highway 2 8 7 .    That is Pinal County's major transportation

13   corridor.      In discussions that we did have with Pinal

14   County as part of the stakeholder workshops, it was

15   verbally described in those stakeholder workshops trying

16   to avoid the major thoroughfare of Highway 2 8 7 through

17   Pinal County.       And so that's really where we, you know,

18   analyzed the potential east/west alignments there.

19        Q.      D o you have any count on the number of homes that

20   would be impacted if it were to go along the north side of

21   the fairgrounds property?

22        A.      I can get that exact number.       But again, the

23   biggest issue i s the fact that the houses are actually on

24   the quarter section alignment in that area.             So if you did

25   go to the north, you would be actually within 1 0 0 feet or


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 1   less of an actual home.

 2       Q.     Well, a quarter mile is how much?        1,200 feet?

         A.     Correct.

 4       Q.     So you're saying there's a house that's 1,200

 5   feet from the fairgrounds?

 6      A.      There are houses that are     --   there are two houses
7    along this alignment, and then there are multiple homes

 8   that kind of are staggered throughout this actual quarter

9    section.

10              MEMBER EBERHART:    Okay.   Thank you.

11              CHMN. BOUCEK:   Mr. Smith.

12

13                              EXAMINATION

14

15       Q.     (BY MEMBER SMITH)   Ms. Pollio.

16      A.      Yes.

17       Q.     You have used the term sensitivity a number of

18   times and in a number of presentations before us.          And

19   once again, I just get so puzzled that you will

20   gerrymander your routes around a few homes, but yet you

21   will still put them on a major arterial that might have

22   hundreds or thousands of cars passing every day.

23              And I ' m just wondering in your terminology of

24   sensitivity, does that mean that the cars don't have any

25   sensitivity, or that the passengers, to power poles versus


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 1   a residence?

 2             Because there's examples all over of houses

 3   backing onto rights-of-way or onto - - yeah, right-of-way,

 4   transmission line right-of-ways, and some of them even pay

 5   premiums to do that.    And I ' m just really always confused

 6   in your terminology of how you use it to your advantage to

 7   put the power lines where you want them, and particularly

 8   on arterials.

9              And I was just wondering, once again, could you

10   explain to me why a house or a few houses have more

11   sensitivity than thousands of cars every day for the life

12   of that right-of-way?    It just doesn't seem compatible.

13   But could you please try to explain that once more for me,

14   please.

15       A.    Yes, we do consider transportation corridors.

16   And I would give one prime example in this study area is

17   Highway 287 or Florence Boulevard that I just described.

18       Q.    I was happy to hear that.      Thank you.

19       A.    Good.   That was one of the examples.       That is

20   what I would consider in this study area the major

21   transportation corridor entrance and egress to this area

22   in Pinal County.   We did look at that as a sensitivity.

23   That road was a sensitivity.    That's not to say that we

24   don't consider other arterial roads as sensitivities.

25             And I also want to point out that, again, in this


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 1   project study area, low density residential and planned

 2   area developments really seemed to be more - - and the

 3   schools, those seemed to be the sensitivities.             This does

 4   not have the traditional biological and cultural

 5   sensitivities, so we really tried to look at more of the

 6   land use sensitivities.

 7             That does not mean a transmission line is not

 8   compatible with residences.     Because as you mentioned,

 9   there are many cases where transmission lines are very

10   compatible with subdivisions with very high density

11   residential developments.

12             But in this case, we did factor residences and

13   planned area developments into our criteria and our

14   decision-making process for routing.         Similarly, we did

15   try to factor in where there were existing road

16   rights-of-way or arterial roads that were highly traveled

17   routes, and we did identify those as sensitivities.

18             11 Mile Corner is in a north/south direction.

19   I t ' s one of the higher traveled roadways in the area, as

20   well as Highway 2 8 7 .   So we did include that as a

21   sensitivity.

22             In this case, we thought Curry Road did have the

23   least amount of residences located along it, the least

24   amount of platted planned area developments.            I t is a

25   dedicated road right-of-way.      It is not paved or traveled


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 1   on frequently today.      So we looked at that as the primary

 2   opportunity based on that siting criteria.

 3       Q.    I think you used the right word, today.             But I

 4   think this power line is going to be there for 5 0 years.

 5   This area is going to be absolutely totally developed

 6   within maybe 2 0 years, 1 0 years.

 7             And you're subjecting these major arterials to               --

 8   and every one of these mile section lines are going to be

 9   major arterials, major, major arterials in time.

10             But anyway, it just puzzles me as to you use the

11   terminology to your advantage - - not yours, but to your

12   client's advantage, and it just puzzles me is we're

13   leaving - - if i t ' s - - I don't want to use    --   well, it just

14   is making a disadvantage to the future and not to today.

15             But you directed the routing for a few houses

16   along the route instead of choosing the very best route

17   and allowing it to be a part of the development for the

18   future.   But I don't see you use the future very much in

19   your selections.

20             Thank you.

21             CHMN. BOUCEK:    Yes, Mr. Rasmussen.

22

23                              EXAMINATION

24

25       Q.    (BY MEMBER RASMUSSEN)    Well, to follow up on


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 1   Mr. Smith's comments, if we could go back to RS-47, which

 2   is the land use, particularly regarding the future PADS.

 3             If you look at the alternate route versus the

 4   preferred route, there really seems to be - - and I don't
 5   know if you have quantified the number of homes impacted

 6   by the alternate versus the preferred, but it seems to be

 7   a pretty close trade-off in terms of what is represented

 8   there.   It does go through the middle section, not an

9    arterial, as Mr. Smith pointed out.

10            And so I ' m wondering if there was any numerical

11   quantification of impact, and is it close?      And why, say,

12   the alternate route might not be more preferable from an

13   esthetic standpoint both to future residents and to the

14   traveling public?

15       A.   We did quantify each one of the categories I have

16   indicated in our overall analysis.       Also, to your point,

17   it is very close.     I mean, this area has very similar land

18   uses on the preferred and the alternate alignment.       So I

19   can say that the preferred route did have fewer homes,

20   fewer residences.     So that was a factor, but it is close.

21       Q.   In terms of the County's position, do they have a

22   strong opinion on the preferred versus the alternate from

23   that standpoint?

24       A.    In the north/south direction we did not - - again,

25   the Curry Road   --




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 1       Q.     Right.

 2       A.     - - versus the alternate half section, we did not

 3   receive through our stakeholder meetings and our open

 4   houses any indication of preference between the preferred

 5   and the alternate.

 6              However, we did in our stakeholder workshops

 7   receive   --   there was discussion topics, and we received

 8   input that Curry Road would be the better route from some

 9   of the jurisdictional perspectives.

10       Q.     From the County's perspective or the planners?

11       A.    No, not from the County.      The County did not

12   provide comment on that.

13       Q.     They didn't weigh in one way or the other.            Is

14   this, like, from the perspective of future developers then

15   or - - I ' m sorry.

16       A.     In those meetings, we had open discussions.               As I

17   recall, the City of Coolidge was in attendance.

18       Q.     Right.

19       A.     There was Pinal County, the City of Eloy.           So

20   some of the just in general discussions, some of the

21   municipalities talked about Curry Road being a stronger

22   option.

23       Q.     It seems like a fairly close call, though.            It's

24   somewhat - - I guess somewhat subjective to the viewer at

25   this point in time.


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 1       A.     It is very close.    The sensitivities are very

 2   similar.

 3              MEMBER RASMUSSEN:    Thank you.

 4              CHMN. BOUCEK:    Ms. Rich.

 5              MEMBER RICH:    Madam Chair, could we go to RS-6 as

 6   the aerial there?     I just wanted to talk a couple of

 7   minutes about the Tierra Grande subdivision.        I think i t ’ s
 8   depicted a little bit better on RS-6.

 9

10                              EXAMINATION

11

12       Q.     (BY MEMBER RICH)    Ms. Pollio, south of the canal

13   there, is there a portion of the golf course that abuts

14   the canal there that travels along?

15       A.     Yes.   You can see basically the golf course and

16   these linear green areas.

17       Q.     And are there any other recreational

18   opportunities?     Is there a trail along the canal?

19   Anything - - other open space along there?

20       A.     Not to my knowledge.

21       Q.     What is the grade like, the change in this area

22   between, like, Earley Road where the line would be in the

23   hybrid model and the golf course and some of these homes?

24   Is it pretty flat out there?

25       A.     Generally, the area is flat.      The canal does have


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     1   canal banks on either side, and you can see some

     2   vegetation on the canal.    So that really provides some

     3   topography change, but it's predominantly flat.

     4       Q.   So if the line went along the Earley Road

     5   alignment, would some of the right-of-way be in

     6   conjunction with the Pinal right-of-way and be elevated?

     7       A.   The Earley Road alignment, you can see the canal

     8   kind of dips down and back up.     If it was purely the

    9    Earley Road alignment, it would be on the north side of

    10   the canal in this location.

    11            I cannot speak to the construction aspects of

    12   where the actual poles would be.

    13       Q.   And the house that's within 330 feet, is that

    14   over in the easternmost portion, or is that actually

    15   another subdivision?     I forgot what you said.      It's

    16   actually in that area?

    17       A.   It's in that area close to the golf course.

    18       Q.   What about those homes that are on the other side

~   19   of 11 Mile Corner Road?    How close are they?

    20       A.   They were not any closer to the actual Earley

    21   Road alignment.   They were farther than the 330 feet that
1
    22   I mentioned.   You can kind of see there's somewhat of a

~
    23   buffer here.   And that's - - you can see there's about 65

    24   homes in that area, and they're pretty densely in that

    25   development.


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 1               MEMBER RICH:     Okay.   Thank you.

 2               MR. ACKEN:     Chairman Boucek, if I may just take a

 3   moment.     Slide RS-46 shows existing land use.         There is a

 4   larger, clearer version of that in the application, Figure

 5   A-3.     And if I could, I would just like to have Ms. Pollio

 6   take a moment and describe this figure.            And I believe

7    that it shows existing residences, so it may address some

 8   of the questions that the Committee Member has.

9

10                       FURTHER DIRECT EXAMINATION

11

12          Q.   (BY MR. ACKEN)    Ms. Pollio, if you would take a

13   moment and orient the Committee.

14          A.   Okay.   You can see the - - I spoke to this during

15   the land use discussion.       This is the existing land use,

16   so this is - - we went out and did field reconnaissance and

17   mapped physically what was happening and what was existing

18   in the project study area.

19               You can see the orange represents residential;

20   the purple, education; the red, commercial.            You can see

21   the industrial facilities.        And, of course, the active

22   agricultural and inactive agriculture is the dominant land

23   use feature in the area.

24          Q.   And Ms. Pollio, if Committee Members look at

25   Figure A-3 in the application, they would be able to see


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 1   the actual houses, existing houses that are located in the

 2   study area; is that correct?

 3       A.   Yes.   In the application, and on the screen but

 4   it's very hard to see, there are orange dots that actually

 5   represent each individual residence that is located in the

 6   project study area.

 7            MR. ACKEN:     Thank you, Chairman.    I just wanted

 8   to make that clarification.

 9            CHMN. BOUCEK:    Ms. Pollio, going along with

10   Ms. Rich's questions, looking at the simulated pictures

11   that are in the Exhibit 1 , Figures E-13 and E-14, I was

12   just curious as to whether those were available for the

13   public to view during the open houses or whether those

14   were generated after those events took place?

15            THE WITNESS:    You're speaking in terms of the

16   application?

17            CHMN. BOUCEK:    Yes.    I t ' s in the application.

18   It's Exhibit E and Figure E-13.       I believe it's - - wait.

19   Let me make - - yes.    Exhibit E and Figure E-13 and E-14.

20   I believe those are showing the Tierra Grande.

21            Do you know whether those were available.
22            THE WITNESS:    We did not have these simulations

23   available at the open house.     We prepared these for our

24   application specifically.      However, the application we did

25   have available at the Coolidge library and, if people


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     1   wanted to look at these, they could have viewed them.           But

     2   we specifically prepared these for our application.

    3             CHMN. BOUCEK:    I just happened - - I mean, going
    4    through all of the simulated photos, which were, I

     5   thought, quite helpful, I think E-14 was kind of the most

     6   striking, you know, change to the landscape, in a sense,

     7   as far as - - and maybe it's just the photo and the fact

     8   that there's contrasting scenery there, but that's quite

    9    noticeable, the addition of the power lines in that photo.

    10            Thank you.

    11            Mr. Eberhart.

    12            MEMBER EBERHART:      To that point, I would point

    13   out in Figure E-14 they did not include the simulated

    14   photo of the SRP line.   They only showed the APS line.          I

    15   don't know if the SRP line would be in the simulated

    16   photo, but it would - - the simulated condition would be

    17   much worse, in fact, if the SRP line were shown in the

    18   simulated condition.

    19            THE WITNESS:    When we did that simulation on

    20   E-14, we did put in that the SRP line simulation.        But

    21   because of this view and it being a half mile away, the

    22   certificated SRP alignment was not in the viewshed of this

    23   photo.

    24            CHMN. BOUCEK:   Mr. Rasmussen.

0   25            MEMBER RASMUSSEN:      Yes.


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 1            On the simulated condition an E-14, then, itls

 2   the whole hybrid version that that is representing, the

 3   one that the County is most interested in vis-a-vis its

 4   impact on the fairgrounds?       Is that what is being shown?

 5            THE WITNESS:    This shows a photo from the

 6   residences in Tierra Grande - -

 7            MEMBER RASMUSSEN:       Yeah.

 8            THE WITNESS:    - - looking at the alternative

 9   alignment which - -

10            MEMBER RASMUSSEN: - - is termed hybrid.           And is

11   this - - I mean, it's south of the fairgrounds?

12            THE WITNESS:    Yes.

13            MEMBER RASMUSSEN:       Okay.

14            THE WITNESS:    Yeah.     It would be the Earley Road

15   alignment that has been discussed.

16            MEMBER RASMUSSEN:      All right.         Thank you.

17            CHMN. BOUCEK:   Mr. Eberhart.

18            MEMBER EBERHART:      Madam Chair, I did have one

19   request of the Applicant.      Figure E-2 was not discussed

20   last night at the public hearing, but the members of the

21   public that did testify said that was their house that was

22   in the picture, and I think they would be particularly

23   interested in seeing this graphic.

24            If we can have the Applicant perhaps send this

25   along with an explanation to the members of the public


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 1   that testified last night, I would appreciate it.

 2              MR. ACKEN:     And we do have their contact

 3   information, and we would agree to do that.

 4              MEMBER EBERHART:       Thank you.

 5              MR. ACKEN:     I ' m informed that we offered that to

 6   them last night after the public meeting.

 7              CHMN. BOUCEK:     One more question, Ms. Pollio.       I

 8   noticed in the letter from the Hopi Tribe that the tribe

 9   stated that it supports the recommendation that a Class 3

10   field survey be conducted.

11              I was just curious, has one already been

12   conducted on that property?

13              THE WITNESS:    We actually conducted a Class 1

14   survey, which is the actual - - I ' m trying to see when I

15   respond   --   a Class 1 survey, which is actually a data

16   search of the existing State Historic Preservation Office

17   files.    We do that first.

18              And then, once the project is engineered, we will

19   go out and do a Class 3 survey, which is what is

20   recommended, in order to do the survey on the exact

21   right-of-way that is engineered so w e ' r e able to pin that

22   down to the exact impacts.

23              CHMN. BOUCEK:     Okay.   So their concerns will be

24   addressed through the process?

25              THE WITNESS:    Yes.


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                 CHMN. BOUCEK:     Any other questions from the

     Committee?

                 (No response. )

                 CHMN. BOUCEK:     Okay.   Cross-examination.

                 Mr. Robertson.

 b               MR. ROBERTSON:     Thank you, Chairman Boucek.

 7

 8                           CROSS-EXAMINATION

 9

10       Q.      (BY MR. ROBERTSON)    Good morning, Ms. Pollio.

11       A.      Good morning.

12       Q.      Would you turn to Slide LS-61, please.

13               In there is one of the considerations related to

14   further elimination of routes during Phase 11.         You

15   indicate that you're looking for the route that would

16   impact the fewest plat approved planned area developments

17   that would be crossed.

18               Do you see that?

19       A.      Yes.

20       Q.      Now, when last year did the Phase I1 process

21   begin?     At what point in the year?

22       A.      Phase I1 was in October.     I guess the process

23   started - - we started doing analysis after - - Phase I
24   would have been September, August/September time frame.

25       Q.     Were you aware that on April 11, 2007, the Pinal


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 1   County Board of Supervisors had adopted a resolution that

2    rezoned and reclassified the Pinal County Fairgrounds

 3   property from a general business zone to a general

 4   business zone planned area development overlay district,

 5   or a CB-2 PAD?

 6       A.   Yes.

7        Q.   And in what way was that action and that change

 8   in rezoning and reclassification taken into account in

9    your siting process?

10      A.    We looked at the Pinal County Fairgrounds as a

11   recreational facility.    That overlay district still

12   represented a recreational facility with similar uses.

13   And, therefore, we did consider it, but we did recommend

14   the preferred alignment because the certificated line went

15   through the fairgrounds, and we felt overall that would

16   reduce impacts by paralleling that existing certificated

17   alignment.

18       Q.   But that observation and that statement

19   presupposes the presence of an APS line on the fairgrounds

20   property as opposed to not being on the fairgrounds

21   property; correct?

22       A.   Could you repeat that?

23       Q.   Yes.    When you make the statement that by

24   aligning it adjacent to the SRP sited alignment it

25   minimizes the impact, that statement and that conclusion


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         1   presupposes the presence of an APS line on the fairgrounds
,
I        2   as contrasted with not being on the fairgrounds; correct?
I
         3             MR. ACKEN:    Mr. Robertson, if I could clarify,

I        4   are you saying presupposes an APS or presupposes an SRP?
,        5             MR. ROBERTSON:   Mr. Acken, I think my question is

         6   very clear.

         7             MR. ACKEN:    I just wanted to make sure that we

         8   understood it.

         9             MR. ROBERTSON:    I will be happy to restate it.

        10             MR. ACKEN:    Thank you.

        11       Q.    (BY MR. ROBERTSON)   When you say by placing the

        12   APS suggested route adjacent to the SRP route on the Pinal

        13   County Fairgrounds it minimizes the impact, you are

        14   presupposing that the APS line would be located adjacent

        15   to the SRP line and it would be located on the

        16   fairgrounds; correct?

        17       A.    In that analysis, we consider the SRP line

        18   exists.   The APS line is where we are doing our analysis.

        19   So we identified, in order to do the analysis, that the

        20   APS line would be parallel to that SRP alignment for

    I   21   analysis purposes.
        22       Q.    Okay.   Are you suggesting implicitly, then, that

        23   if the APS line were not located adjacent to the SRP line

        24   on the Pinal County Fairgrounds but was located elsewhere

        25   on the fairgrounds the impact would be more?


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 1       A.     The analysis, and what I have stated in

 2   testimony, is that when paralleling an opportunity or the

     existing - - what we consider the certificated or for our

 4   analysis purposes the existing SRP alignment, if you

 5   parallel that alignment and match them structure for

 6   structure, overall in that southern corridor area the

 7   placement in parallel, structure for structure, would

 8   minimize the overall land use impacts.

 9       Q.     When you use the word minimize in that context,

10   that assumes there will be two power line systems going

11   through the fairgrounds property, SRP and APS; correct?

12      A.      It assumes two lines in the southern corridor

13   area, yes.

14       Q.     That wasn't my question.    You used the statement

15   that by placing it next to the SRP line it would minimize

16   the impact on the Pinal County Fairgrounds property;

17   correct?

18      A.      It would minimize the impact in the southern

19   corridor area.

20       Q.     Does the southern corridor area include property

21   south of the Pinal County Fairgrounds?

22       A.     Yes.

23       Q.     What do you mean by your statement, then, it

24   would minimize the impact in the southern corridor area?

25       A.     We analyzed in the southern corridor area all


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 1   possible east/west connectors.      So from the Curry Road or

 2   the alternate alignment into the Pinal South substation,

 3   we looked at the certificated alignment, the quarter

 4   section, and the Earley Road alignment, and variations

 5   therein.

 6              W e ' r e asking for the flexibility to look at and

 7   site within that southern corridor area, but the reason we

 8   identified the preferred is because overall in that area,

 9   by paralleling an existing line and matching structures

10   span for span, we felt that in the southern corridor area

11   that was the best place to put it.

12       Q.     So when you use the word minimizes, you're using

13   it within a context of the southern corridor area as a

14   whole; is that correct?

15      A.      Yes.

16       Q.     That's very helpful.

17              Now let's focus on the Pinal County Fairgrounds

18   property itself.

19      A.      Okay.

20       Q.     You would not say that by placing the line next

21   to the route which has been approved for SRP it minimizes

22   the impact as contrasted with placing the line either

23   south or north of the fairgrounds property, would you?

24      A.      That's correct.

25       Q.     Okay.   I think w e ' v e finally defined our terms.


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 1   Thank you.    Let me go back to the question I asked you.

 2              To what extent did you take into account in terms

 3   of detailed analysis the fact that on April 11, 2007, the

 4   Pinal County Board of Supervisors had rezoned and

 5   reclassified the fairgrounds property to make it a planned

 6   area development?

 7       A.     We overlaid any planned area developments that we

 8   received through the County or from stakeholders.          And

9    there's a number of examples of how we included those in

10   overlays in our geographic information system database, as

11   well as included them in our analysis.

12              Again, the planned area developments - - and in

13   this case an overlay district       --   would have been included

14   in the overall analysis.     But again, it was one criteria

15   that we looked at in identifying a preferred and alternate

16   alignment.    So specifically, we included it as part of our

17   analysis.

18       Q.     When you were considering the fairgrounds, were

19   you looking at existing uses or existing plus planned

20   uses?

21       A.     We had a number of meetings with the Pinal County

22   Fairgrounds.    We talked about the existing uses, which

23   included parking, RV parking for major events, and parking

24   spaces in the paved area.        We also talked about future

25   uses.    And again, we, through those discussions, talked


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 1   about RV parking again, predominantly as a future use.

 2       Q.   Do you recall the number of meetings you had with

 3   representatives of the Pinal County Fairgrounds and who

 4   was in attendance?

 5       A.   I recall - - I think it was three, but I would
 6   have to check in the application.       They are all listed in

 7   Exhibit J-1.    In those meetings, Ken Buchanan was in

 8   attendance.    Mr. Gonzalez was in attendance for the most

 9   recent meeting.    Terry Haifley was in attendance.       And

10   there could have been a couple of other people, but those

11   are the recollection of who we spoke with.

12       Q.   The reason why I ask you is that representatives

13   of my client recall the meeting on November 21, which is

14   referenced in your application materials.

15       A.   That's the most recent, yes.

16       Q.   We've been unable to confirm presence at the

17   earlier meetings you indicate, and that's a process we're

18   still looking into.    I wondered if you had any more

19   specific information.

20            Do you recall during those discussions      --   you had

21   mentioned parking, you have mentioned RVs - - whether there

22   was discussion of the different structures that were

23   planned for the Pinal County Fairgrounds properties?

24       A.   The specifics of those structures, I do not

25   recall specific structure to structure locations


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 1   identified in that area.

 2       Q.   Okay.

 3       A.      I know generally there was discussion on future

 4   uses and parking, and RV parking was one of the things

 5   that we did talk about in detail.

 6       Q.   Earlier this morning during Mr. Acken's direct

 7   examination of you, you identified four PAD categories.

 8       A.   Correct.

 9       Q.   Which category of those four did you put the

10   Pinal County Fairgrounds into?

11      A.    We looked - - these planned area development

12   categories were specifically oriented towards residential

13   planned area developments.     That's how we identified and

14   classified them.    We do have the Pinal County Fairgrounds

15   identified on all of our maps.    We did not include the

16   overlay on the maps.

17       Q.   When you have it identified on the map, do you

18   have it identified in the recreational category or the PAD

19   category?

20      A.       It is in a recreational category.

21       Q.   By including it in the recreational category, do

22   you give it a lesser weighting or a lower sensitivity than

23   if you would have included it in the PAD category?

24       A.   We look at all sensitivities, and we did not

25   necessarily weight one criteria over another.       Instead, we


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 1   looked overall at the criteria as we traverse - -

 2   potentially traverse those areas.       So the recreation was

     considered a sensitivity similarly towards or to the

 4   planned area developments.

 5       Q.   Is your testimony, in essence, then, that you did

 6   not do a weighting of the Pinal County PAD having been

 7   classified as recreation vis-a-vis other PADs?

 8       A.   We identified the different categories of PADs

 9   because we wanted to make sure in our analysis and in the

10   criteria we addressed the PADs that had         --   and again,

11   these are the residential PADs   --    that had plat approval,

12   versus the ones that had been just filed or the ones that

13   we had been given in public comments, and those were the

14   future developments.

15            So we did look at and we did quantify acreages

16   crossed for those different categories, but we didn't

17   necessarily quantitatively weight each one.

18       Q.   Now, on the PADs, are those areas where there may

19   be plats that have been approved, or plats that have been

20   submitted, but there are structures yet to be constructed?

21      A.    Yes.

22       Q.   In the case of the Pinal County Fairgrounds,

23   which is also a PAD as well as recreation, there are

24   existing structures there; is that correct?

25      A.    Yes.


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 1       Q.   Okay.   Are there any other facilities that you

 2   took into account in your project study area that are the

 3   same or similar to the Pinal County Fairgrounds, or is it

 4   a case unto itself?

 5       A.   There are many different land use categories

 6   which have not specifically addressed that.       There are

 7   educational facilities, commercial facilities.

 8       Q.   Ms. Pollio, excuse me.       My question was directed

9    towards recreational.

10      A.    We did look at the Tierra Grande golf course as

11   an additional recreational facility, but the Pinal County

12   Fairgrounds is a different type of recreational use than

13   the golf course.

14       Q.   Okay.   And is it the only type of recreational

15   use of its nature within the project study area?

16      A.    Yes.

17       Q.   I wonder if we could go to Slide RS-43 at this

18   point in time.

19            Ms. Pollio, do you have that in front of you or

20   are you able to see it from here?

21      A.    Yes.

22       9.   Now, would you describe for us when this

23   particular map or document was prepared and what its

24   purpose was?

25       A.   This was the map of the alternative alignments


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 1   that was taken to the second phase of open houses.              At

 2   this stage we had different alternatives identified with

 3   no preference.

 4       Q.    This was in October of 2 0 0 7 ?

 5       A.    Correct.

 6       Q.    Was this the map that was prepared and used at

 7   that point in your siting and public process discussions

 8   just prior to the final decision on the two routes that

 9   was made in November of 2 0 0 7 ?

10       A.    Yes.       This was the one that was publicly

11   identified and discussed with the stakeholders and the

12   jurisdictions in October.

13       Q.    And subject to the final narrowing down and

14   decision that was made in November of 2 0 0 7 ,     this was what

15   APS had narrowed the routes to; is that correct?

16       A.    Correct .

17       Q.    Let me direct your attention to the legend

18   information in the right-hand column.        And if y o u ’ l l look

19   at the first line item, we see the color green and we see

20   Alternative A.

21             Now, do you have a laser pointer with you?

22       A.    Yes.

23       Q.    Would you point out for the members of the

24   Committee and describe, starting from the north at

25   Sundance, Alternative A as it proceeds from Sundance all


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     1   of the way down to Pinal South.

    2       A.    Alternative A comes out of Sundance to the west

    3    following the pipeline alignments, then turns south along

    4    Curry Road to a point of the canal south of Florence

    5    Boulevard, then generally follows the canal and Earley

     6   Road into the Pinal South substation.

    7        Q.   Now, I didn't realize until last evening when I

     8   was looking at the slides that that is exactly the hybrid

    9    route that Pinal County is proposing, is it not?

    10      A.    Yes.

    11       Q.   Okay.   Now let's go to Slide RS-6.

    12            And Ms. Pollio, what I ' m going to try and do

    13   here, with your assistance, is address some concerns that

    14   have been raised by Ms. Rich during her questioning of you

    15   this morning.    Okay?

    16      A.    Okay.

    17       Q.   If we take the alternate route that has been

    18   proposed by APS, and once we get south of the Pinal County

    19   Fairgrounds property we change the west to east alignment

    20   on the alternate route to move north from Earley Road up

    21   to somewhere in between the southern boundary of the Pinal
,   22   County Fairgrounds property and the Earley Road alignment,

    23   that would have the effect of moving that modified

I   24   alternate route further away from Tierra Grande and the

    25   subdivision just to the east of Tierra Grande, would it


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     not?

         A.      Yes.

         Q.      And that would still keep that modified alternate

     alignment within the southern corridor area, would it not?

         A.      Correct .

            Q.   Okay.   Now, let's do the same thing with the

 7   preferred route.        Let's take it over and extend it a

 8   little bit further south - - not as far south as your

9    Alternative A on R - 4 3    --   but then somewhere north of

10   Earley Road and south of the Pinal County Fairgrounds,

11   extend that route at that point west to east.          But

12   somewhere further south of the Pinal County Fairgrounds

13   and north of there.

14               That, again, has the effect of moving what I'll

15   call that modified preferred route away from the Tierra

16   Grande subdivision and the subdivision to its east;

17   correct?

18       A.      Correct.

19       Q.      Okay.   Thank you.

20               Let's move to Slide LS-62.       And I think also,

21   Tyler, Slide RS-45, if you could put that up.

22               And Ms. Pollio, let me go back to a portion of

23   your testimony of yesterday afternoon where I believe you

24   were responding to a question from one of the Committee

25   Members as to why 11 Mile Corner Road had not been


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 1   considered as a route.    And you made the statement that

 2   there are two schools located along 11 Mile Corner Road,

     and schools are a high sensitivity.

              Do you recall that testimony.

         A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   I ' m sorry.   I didn't hear you.

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Let me ask you a few questions against that

 9   background.

10            First of all, why are schools a high sensitivity?

11   What is the underlying rationale there?

12       A.   They are a high sensitivity in this sense.          In

13   the study area there are only two schools.       So we

14   considered, where possible, if you in this study area you

15   have other possible alignments to avoid the schools,

16   that's what we looked at.

17       Q.   No.    My question was why are schools considered

18   to be a high sensitivity?

19       A.   Schools are considered high sensitivity because

20   there are a number of people that attend that facility on

21   a daily basis, and so i t ' s just one of the factors.       And

22   we typically identify schools as sensitivity, but I again

23   want to note that it does not mean that they're not

24   compatible with siting transmission lines.       Just in this

25   study area we could minimize impact by locating farther


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 1   away from them.

 2       Q.      Is the essence of the sensitivity that you have

 3   the presence of a high number of people on recurring

 4   occasion?

 5       A.     That's one factor.

 6       Q.     What else is it about a school that would make it

 7   a high sensitivity?

 8       A.     That's one.

 9       Q.     That's one that you mentioned.

10      A.      I t ' s a high number of people.

11       Q.     On recurring occasion; correct?

12      A.      Correct.    That is the predominant factor.

13       Q.     Okay.   Now, you mentioned - - I thought I heard
14   you say yesterday there are two schools on 11 Mile Corner

15   Road, but a moment ago you appeared to say there were two

16   schools within the project study area.

17              Are there two and are they both on 11 Mile Corner

18   Road, or is there only one on 11 Mile Corner Road?

19      A.      There is an elementary school and a special

20   education school located on 11 Mile Corner Road, and these

21   are the only two schools in the study area.

22       Q.     Are they at the same location or different

23   locations?

24      A.      As I testified yesterday, they are at the same

25   location, but there are two schools.


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 1             MR. ROBERTSON:    Okay.

 2             CHMN. BOUCEK:    Yes, Mr. Palmer.

 3             MEMBER PALMER:     I apologize for my tardiness.        I

4    wanted to join the dance.

 5             Could we be more specific?         Is there a concern

 6   that there's an outside or very remote potential for

 7   structural failure and that that structural failure would

 8   impact many children potentially, and there's also a

9    perception of that fear by parents and people that are

10   involved in the school system that such a thing could

11   happen?

12             THE WITNESS:    Yes.

13             MEMBER PALMER:    Simple answer.        Thank you.

14       Q.    (BY MR. ROBERTSON)     Ms. Pollio, let me have you

15   turn to Slide LS-64.      I wonder if you could pull that up.

16   I would appreciate it.

17             Are there any significant environmental resource

18   impact differences between the preferred route and the

19   alternate route?

20       A.    From the points on LS-64 relating to biological

21   and cultural, they are very similar in nature in terms of

22   those impacts.

23       Q.    Okay.    If we could turn to Slide RS-52 for a

24   moment.   And you may have answered my question earlier

25   this morning, but I want to be sure to cover it.


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 1            I believe you testified this photograph was taken

 2   and then the simulation condition was created from a

     location on the Pinal County Fairgrounds; is that correct?

         A.   Yes.

         Q.   Do you know what direction we're looking in as we

     look into the photograph here?

         A.   Yes.    Tyler, if you could pull up LS-68.

 8            The red, it looks like an open arrow, basically,

 9   the top of that point is where the photo was taken from,

10   and you can see the viewshed direction to the south-

11   southwest.

12       Q.   Okay.   Are you able with your laser to point out

13   in the simulat d condition which       re the SRP lines and

14   which are the APS lines?

15       A.   The northern lines would be the SRP lines, and

16   the southern line or the line farther to the left would be

17   the proposed project lines.

18       Q.   Do you know what the spacing or separation

19   distance was between those two transmission structures

20   that was assumed for simulation purposes?

21            And I would be happy if one of your colleagues

22   provided the information to you, I think, just to tie it

23   together in the record at this point.

24       A.   Yes.    I just wanted to confirm.        150 feet, yes.

25            I ' m sorry.   115 feet.


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 1       Q.     Do you know whether or not that separation that

 2   was assumed for purposes of this simulation would comport

 3   with what the Arizona Corporation Commission Staff appears

 4   to be suggesting thus far in this proceeding should be the

 5   appropriate separation in the event that the APS line is

 6   sited adjacent to the SRP line?

7        A.     We assumed the 115 feet separation.     I ' m not the

 8   person to address the condition of separation of

9    transmission structures.

10              MR. ROBERTSON:    Okay.   Mr. Acken, if it might be

11   possible - - mind you, I ' m not advocating that adjacent

12   siting for the APS line, but I think for the Committee to

13   have that information.      Because if a greater separation

14   would be required under the Commission Staff's approach, I

15   believe it would have the effect of changing what we see

16   in that picture.

17              MR. ACKEN:   Mr. Robertson, one question and one

18   point of clarification.      Figure E-10 in the application

19   provides the photo information, including explaining that

20   in this simulation the two structures are 115 feet apart.

21              Now, as far as your request, I wasn't clear on

22   that.    Could you clarify what your request is?

23              MR. ROBERTSON:    I would be happy to, Mr. Acken.

24              As I understand the purpose of this simulation,

25   i t is to show visually what the impact would be if there


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 1   were to be the APS line and the SRP line transecting the

2    middle of the Pinal County Fairgrounds.

 3            My question assumes as a predicate that the

 4   Commission Staff has been suggesting perhaps a greater

 5   separation is required than may have been used for

 6   purposes of the preparation of this simulation.       And if

7    I ' m correct in that assumption, then it seems to me the

 8   simulation would actually change if you used the

9    Commission Staff criteria.     And that, not only visually

10   but in other ways, could change the impact on the

11   fairgrounds of both lines being sited on the fairgrounds

12               So I ' m trying to get really at, I guess, the

13   basic point:     Does the witness know or does APS know

14   whether the 115 feet comports with the ACC Staff's

15   suggestion or whether a greater separation would be

16   required?

17            MR. ACKEN:     I'll be happy to address that.       The

18   testimony of Mr. Spitzkoff and Mr. Bernosky yesterday was

19   that the Staff condition would not be feasible on the

20   fairgrounds and we would not be in agreement with the

21   Staff proposal as it relates to the fairgrounds.       And so

22   that is why the simulation shows a separation of 115 feet.

23   I believe the testimony yesterday might have been that

24   they could be as close as 105 feet on the fairgrounds.

25               But APS's position is that we are not in


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 1   agreement with Staff's proposal.

 2              MR. ROBERTSON:   I understand that.    I don't know

 3   what the Committee might be disposed to - -

 4              MR. ACKEN:   Of course.

 5              MR. ROBERTSON:   - - adopt within this proceeding.

 6              Tyler, can we go to Slide LS-70 for a moment.

 7       Q.     (BY MR. ROBERTSON)   Ms. Pollio, I ' m going to

 8   circle back to the discussion that we had a few moments

 9   ago about the context for your statement it minimizes

10   impact to the Pinal County Fairgrounds, and let me just

11   ask you one final follow-up question.

12              Would you agree that if the alternate route were

13   to be adopted, or for that matter what I've described a

14   few moments ago in questions to you as the modified

15   alternate route or the modified preferred route, each of

16   those would have no impact on the Pinal County

17   Fairgrounds?

18              Would you like the question read back?

19       A.     They would have no direct impacts to land use,

20   correct.

21       Q.     Okay.   Looking at the bottom bullet point on your

22   conclusions, LS-70, you make the statement that existing

23   scenic areas, historic sites, or archaeological sites,

24   there's no known significant impacts to scenic or cultural

25   sites.


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e    1              Now, was that statement made in reference to the

     2   preferred route?

     3       A.     Yes.

     4       Q.     Would that statement also be equally applicable

     5   to the alternate route?

     6      A.      Yes.

     7       Q.     Let's go to Slide LS-71, if we could, Tyler.

     8              There you're continuing your conclusions with

     9   regard to the total environmental area and the protection

    10   of areas of unique biological wealth or habitats of rare

    11   or endangered species.

    12              Are those statements made with reference to the

e   13

    14
         preferred route?

            A.      Yes.

    15      Q.      Are they equally applicable to the alternate

    16   route?

    17      A.      Yes.

    18              MR. ROBERTSON:    May I have just a moment?

    19              CHMN. BOUCEK:    Yes, Mr. Robertson.

    20              (Brief pause.)

    21       Q.     (BY MR. ROBERTSON)       Ms. Pollio - -

    22      A.      Yes.

    23       Q.     - - I ' m almost done.

    24      A.      Okay.

    25      Q.      Earlier when we were talking about the


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 1   fairgrounds and your understanding of current and

 2   projected uses, you referred to parking and RV parking.

 3            Do you recall that?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   What was your understanding of what the County

 6   people meant when they referred to RV parking?       What did

 7   that entail?

 8       A.   My recollection of the meeting is that they hold

 9   events with - - there are a number of different or a number

10   of RVs that are parked or sit on the Pinal County

11   Fairgrounds during that event, and that this is a

12   particular area where the RVs are located.

13       Q.   Okay.   It was it your understanding in that

14   regard that RVs could be parked there for several days at

15   a time in connection with these events?

16      A.    Yes.

17       Q.   And that people would be residing in those RVs

18   during that period of time?

19      A.    Yes.

20            MR. ROBERTSON:   Okay.   That's all I have.     Thank

21   you very much.

22            CHMN. BOUCEK:    Thank you, Mr. Robertson.

23            I'm thinking that now might be a good time to

24   take a short break, so we'll go off the record and

25   reconvene at 10 after 11:OO.


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                 (A recess was taken from 10:55 a.m. to 11:15 a.m.)

                 CHMN. BOUCEK:     Back on the record.

               My watch is saying 11:15, but I understand that I

     may be a little fast.       I ' m not that far off?     Okay.

               We're back on the record.        When we went off the

     record, I believe, Mr. Robertson, had you finished with

     your questioning of Ms. Pollio?

 8             MR. ROBERTSON:       That is correct, Chairman Boucek,

9    I have.   Thank you.

10               CHMN. BOUCEK:     Thank you.

11             Mr. Bhakta, do you have any questions for

12   Ms. Pollio?

13             MR. BHAKTA:    Yes, Chairman.     We just have a brief

14   question.

15

16                           CROSS-EXAMINATION

17

18       Q.      (BY MR. BHAKTA)    Ms. Pollio, on a clarification

19   regarding some questioning that Mr. Robertson was asking

20   you regarding the alternate route versus the preferred

21   route viability, I just wanted to make sure you had

22   indicated that there weren't any significant, you know,

23   scenic, historical, cultural site, or fish and wildlife

24   issues between the two, the preferred and the alternative

25   route.


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1             But the one question I did have was that

2    application, are you just specifically referring to the

3    southern corridor, or is that also applicable to the north

4    and south alignments?

 5      A.    From the biological and cultural perspectives,

 6   they are very similar type impacts between the preferred

7    and the alternate alignment.

 8       Q.   Okay.     Would I be correct in understanding that

 9   the north/south alignment there is a significant

10   difference in terms of, like, the impact on land use as

11   well as, you know, some of the other, like, residential

12   issues and whatnot that comes between the north/south

13   preferred and alternative alignment?

14      A.    Yes, there are some differences.       And I can - -

15   again, we can go back to Figure A-3.       And Tyler, if you

16   could also pull up - - it's the land use map.

17            This is probably the best way visually to address

18   your question.     Okay.   RS-46 is also Figure A-3 in our

19   application.     Figure A-3, visually i t ' s a little bit

20   easier to see.

21            As I have mentioned, one criteria that we look at

22   are existing residences.      Figure A-3 shows in the orange

23   dots where each existing residence is in relation to the

24   preferred and the alternate alignments.

25            You can see there are - - one of the primary


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 1   differences in terms of from the north/south alignment

2    perspective in this area which is south of Storey Road,

 3   there are more residences in close proximity and in a

 4   higher density on that alternative versus the preferred

 5   alignment.     That's one example of       --   to address your

 6   quest ion.

 7              MR. BHAKTA:    Okay.    We have no further questions.

 8                CHMN. BOUCEK:    Thank you.

9               Mr. Hains, does Staff have any questions for the

10   witness?

11              MR. HAINS:    Yes.   Thank you, Chairman.

12

13                            CROSS-EXAMINATION

14

15       9.       (BY MR. HAINS)   Good morning, Ms. Pollio.

16       A.     Hello.

17       Q.     First, I had a clarification question with

18   respect to the maps used.         If I could have, I believe,

19   Slide RS-45.

20              And on the far left-hand side there on the - - I

21   guess that would be the far southwest corner of the

22   proposed corridor, do you see how it's squared off in the

23   corner?

24       A.     Yes.

25       Q.     And if we could move to, I guess, RS-44 is


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 1   another example.      And it's kind of hard to see it, but it

 2   looks like from my copy, at least, in the far southwest

 3   corner it's actually angular.

 4              Is there a difference?       What is the basis for - -

 5      A.      As part of our process, in the October time frame

 6   we looked at identifying the southern corridor area.                In
 7   this one corner, which is the southwest corner at Curry

 8   Road and Earley Road, there is actually a canal.            The

 9   canal that we have spoken of actually goes north of the

10   Earley Road alignment.

11              So early in the process the intent was that

12   corridor to be north of the Earley Road alignment because

13   crossing the canal would require two crossings.            However,

14   in order to prepare for this and to notice, we asked for

15   the flexibility for that entire southern corridor area,

16   and specifically south of the canal down to the Earley

17   Road alignment.

18       Q.     Thank you.

19              Now, with respect to site impacts, i t ' s my

20   understanding that generally the notion is that you can

21   minimize the individual or       --   well, the specific site

22   impact of one line by placing it closer to an existing

23   line.    Would that be correct?

24       A.     Yes.

25       Q.     And when you were evaluating the preferred as


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 1   opposed to the alternative alignments here proposed, does

 2   one of them recommend itself as being better in terms of

 3   being able to take advantage of the proximate siting

 4   opportunity?

 5       A.   Yes.   The preferred alignment does take advantage

 6   of siting parallel to an existing certificated line.

 7       Q.   And yet - - I don't remember if I heard you

 8   correctly, but I thought that at one point you said that

 9   the two were roughly comparable, though, in terms of the

10   overall environmental impact.    Would that be accurate?

11      A.    Could you describe what you mean by the two?

12       Q.   Excuse me.   The preferred as opposed to the

13   alternate alignments.

14      A.    In the southern corridor we feel that those

15   alignments, both the preferred and alternate, are

16   environmentally compatible.    However, as I have stated,

17   the reason for the preference, or the preferred, was

18   paralleling the SRP certificated alignment because overall

19   land use impacts, matching pole for pole and paralleling

20   in that southern corridor area, would be less overall than

21   if they were separated in that southern corridor area.

22       Q.   And by the separation you mean following the

23   pathway of the alternate one?

24      A.    Correct.

25            MR. HAINS:   Thank you.      I have no other


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         1   questions.

        2                CHMN. BOUCEK:    Mr. Acken, do you have any

        3    redirect?

        4                MR. ACKEN:    Just one area, Chairman Boucek, thank

         5   you.

         6

         7                            REDIRECT EXAMINATION

         8

        9        Q.      (BY MR. ACKEN)    Ms. Pollio, if you would take a

        10   look again at Figure A-3.        And I believe most of the

        11   Committee Members have that handy now.             And Tyler, if y o u

        12   could put on the screen RS-46.

        13               Committee Member Eberhart asked a number of

        14   questions about the potential of going north of the

        15   preferred route, north of the fairgrounds.             And maybe if

        16   you could take a moment, using Figure A-3, and explain

        17   some of the land use issues that you might face if you

        18   were to go north of the fairgrounds.

        19       A.      Yes.    RS-46 depicts this, and I spoke to it.

        20   However, as you mentioned, A-3 actually is much clearer in

        21   terms of where the actual residences are located.

        22               Specifically, we were talking about an area to

        23   the north of the preferred alignment or north of the
I
        24   fairgrounds.       As I mentioned, I talked about a residential


    0   25   area that you can see on RS-46, which is east of Tweedy


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     1   Road, and basically between Tweedy Road and the Tweedy

     2   Road/ll Mile Corner section.

     3              You can see the orange dots represent the actual

     4   homes.    So I definitely wanted to point out the individual

     5   homes are located not only close to that alignment, but

     6   also on the quarter-quarter section and as you move up to

     7   Highway 2 8 7 .

     8              As you move even farther up, you can see there

     9   are homes, the schools.          And again, the farther up you

    10   move, the longer you have to stay on 11 Mile Corner Road.

    11   And w e ' v e already identified the impacts associated with

    12   that.

    13              I guess generally if you look at the map, it's

    14   pretty clear or evident that the southern corridor area

    15   really is one of the only areas in that east/west

    16   direction that is between residential developments.

    17   Specifically, the southern corridor area is the Tierra

    18   Grande to the south.      You can see the residential area
I

I
I   19   east of Tweedy Road to the north.          And as you proceed
    20   north, you can see basically what is generally going on

    21   with multiple different land use classifications north of

    22   Highway 2 8 7 .

    23              So this map does give you kind of a clear picture
    24   of how we tried to avoid existing residences and

    25   residential land use by identifying that southern corridor


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     area with the preferred and alternate alignment in there.

         Q.   And existing homeowners were an important

     consideration in your analysis?

        A.    Yes.   As I have stated, we have heard in previous

 5   cases from the Committee and the Commission th t existing

 6   residences are important considerations when siting the

 7   transmission line.    So we definitely do use that as a

 8   criteria that we take into heavy consideration.

 9            MR. ACKEN:    Thank you.

10            No further questions, Chairman Boucek.

11            CHMN. BOUCEK:    Mr. Smith.

12

13                         FURTHER EXAMINATION

14

15      Q.    (BY MEMBER SMITH)     Ms. Pollio, how come, then, if

16   that's the case, you have the alignment adjacent to the

17   two highest density areas on the preferred and on the

18   alternate route?

19            The preferred route is north of the fairgrounds.

20   There appears to be quite a few homes there and, likewise,

21   south of the alternate route on Earley.           Those are the two

22   highest densities in the whole project.

23      A.    There are high densities there.          And what, again,

24   I was trying to point out is that we tried to go in

25   between those because that is open      --   that whole southern


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 1   corridor is open.

 2            There are not many areas in the project study

 3   area where in that east/west direction we can connect

 4   where we do not impact residences, and more importantly

 5   would not then fall onto 11 Mile Corner Road.

 6            So again, as you look north of the southern
 7   corridor area, you would have to go literally up to Storey

 8   or Kleck Road to avoid residential land uses.       But then to

 9   come down into Pinal South substation, you would then have

10   to come down on 11 Mile Corner Road, which again is one of

11   the highest traveled roadways in the area second to

12   Florence Boulevard, and also is the location, as I have

13   mentioned, of the schools and additional residential

14   facilities.

15            So it really was trying to weigh the overall

16   constraints.   And it's a sum of not only residences - - I
17   wanted to point that out   --   but a sum of residences,

18   planned area developments, and the linear features that we

19   had available.

20       Q.   Would not, then, putting the east/west alignment

21   on the quarter-quarter section - - and if I ' m not mistaken,

22   I think I heard Mr. Robertson say that would be a solution

23   to the hybrid also in that it would be south of the

24   fairgrounds and north of the Earley.

25            Would that not be a reasonable solution?


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 1       A.   Yes.   That is why we have that included in that

 2   southern corridor area that would be compatible from an

 3   environmental perspective.

 4       Q.   Would that not also be a solution going north and

 5   south and having it on the quarter section east of Curry

 6   Road also?   It would miss all of the houses both that you

 7   were concerned about on Curry Road as well as the

 8   mid-section line by putting it on the quarter-quarter

 9   section east of Curry?

10      A.    The quarter-quarter section east of Curry would

11   have similar impacts as the Curry Road alignment to homes,

12   and you could see that in Section 15.       So I would say that

13   they probably would be similar in nature.

14       Q.   In Section 15?     Yeah. I ' m talking about to the

15   east, east of Curry Road.

16      A.    Yes.

17       Q.   There is one house on Randolph.        But other than

18   that, there are no houses all of the way down to Earley.

19      A.    That is correct.

20       Q.   So again, if those are major points of your

21   evaluation, would that not be an acceptable solution also

22   of putting i t on the quarter-quarter section, and then

23   nobody - - there are no houses affected?        And then likewise

24   on the east/west on Earley, moving up to the

25   quarter-quarter section north of Earley, I think, would


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 1   achieve the County's desires also.

 2       A.   To your point, I would agree that from impacts to

 3   residences, that's a good point that you have made.                One

 4   consideration that I would like to just clarify is that we

 5   have worked with the County and do understand that Curry

 6   Road will be developed, and we have to consider that

 7   dedicated road right-of-way of Curry Road.

 8            One concern that as we talked through with the

 9   planning jurisdictions is one of the preferences that we

10   heard of Curry Road over the half section line is that

11   when considering the road that would be widened and

12   dedicated along Curry Road, if you had the transmission

13   line offset a quarter section, there would be a very small

14   strip of land between the road and the quarter section of

15   the transmission line that may present issues associated

16   with that sliver of land being deemed unusable for

17   residential development per se.

18       Q.   That's no different, though, as what you see on

19   the 1 1 5 line that would be on 11 Mile Corner Road with the

20   Western transmission line.     That's exactly what they've

21   done there, almost the full length of your presentation.

22   They're on the quarter-quarter section.           There's still

23   development.   The property is less expensive than

24   acquiring right-of-way on a major arterial or on a

25   mid-section line in thinking of the costs for right-of-way


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 1   acquisition.     So 1 was just - -

 2       A.   Yeah.     I understand your point.         Working with the

 3   planners that w e ' v e had at the stakeholder meetings, in

 4   verbal discussions and talking about preference, it seemed

 5   the preference was to be and share potentially

 6   right-of-way with Curry alignment where possible.

 7       Q.   But you still have to bu - - you have to acquire

 8   that rights-of-way, don't you, along Curry?

 9       A.   Yes.

10            MEMBER SMITH:     You're paying a higher premium for

11   that land, which has the potential of being either

12   commercial or higher density some day.            Again, I know you

13   use the word now, and maybe the problem is I look at then

14   or, you know, in the future.         Are we creating problems for

15   the future in solving an immediate problem because it's

16   the easiest and the quickest?

17            And I don't understand why Western could do it on

18   their full length of their right-of-way on 11 Mile Road,

19   but yet i t doesn't seem to ever be an acceptable route in

20   the applications now.     But anyway . . .

21            Thank you, Madam Chair.

22            CHMN. BOUCEK:     Mr. Rasmussen.

23            MEMBER RASMUSSEN:      To follow up on Mr. Smith's

24   point, actually, in the big book, if you go to Figure H-2,

25   the planned area developments are actually highlighted in


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1    colored fashion, I think much more dramatically than you

2    see on the screen, and you actually have them identified.

3               The point that Mr. Smith was making, I think, is

4    shown quite dramatically.       You do affect a portion of a

5    proposed planned development south of 287 and east of

 6   Curry, and the alternate route skirts that proposal.            But

7    beyond that, it seems to do what Mr. Smith's suggestion

8    is.    It is a little further west than the existing homes

9    on Storey Road.

10              So in terms of future development, that seems to

11   be a reasonable alternative, either the alternate route or

12   one in the quarter section, from the perspective of this

13   map on Figure H-2.

14              CHMN. BOUCEK:   Ms. Rich.

15              MEMBER RICH:    Madam Chair, Ms. Pollio, the more

16   that you answer these questions, the more I ' m struck at

17   how subjective a process this is.

18              And I guess I don't understand why you, if you're

19   looking for opportunities and sensitivities, that you

20   don't go quarter section by quarter section and score

21   these things.    Because i t seems like you're kind of

22   backing into your answer, and Mr. Smith has chastised

23   applicants in the past for this level of subjectivity.             It

24   seems like w e ' v e gotten to a point where we just have to

25   trust you, that you have weighed all of the stuff out and


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 1   you've intuitively decided that this is the best route.

2               Why isn't there quantifiable data that - - or a
 3   data-driven process that you can present to us that lead

 4   us to your conclusions so that we could even recreate

 5   them?

 6              THE WITNESS:   As part of the siting process, we

 7   do quantify each one of the siting criterias that we have

 8   discussed.    We do look at number of homes, we do look at

9    percent of PADs crossed, acres of PADs crossed by each one

10   of the opportunities that we discussed.

11              To your earlier point, we do consider as part of

12   the siting criteria that we use section lines and half

13   section lines as stronger opportunities than quarter

14   section lines, typically because of what we've been      --    we
15   talk about with some of the jurisdictional planners that I

16   have mentioned.

17              A right-of-way on the half section or the section

18   line and then another right-of-way on the quarter section

19   line, it tends to, in some cases, encumber overall

20   property more than if they're collocated.       And so that is

21   the basis for the opportunity analysis that we use.

22              To your second point on quantifying, we do

23   quantify each one of the criteria:       Numbers of homes, the

24   planned area developments, as I have mentioned, schools,

25   and each one of the criteria that we list.       However, we


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     1   don't necessarily weight the criteria to say one is more

     2   important than the other.

     3              MEMBER RICH:     But it seems like when you did your
I
     4   analysis you discounted a number of homes and supplanted

     5   that with another criteria.       Is that all determined

     6   beforehand?

     7              It just all seems so loose that we have     --   I

     8   think now and in the past had a very hard time just kind

     9   of saying, okay, well, we trust you; we believe you; we're

    10   going to let you substitute your judgment for ours because

    11   we don't have the data, and you don't seem to be able to

    12   provide it to us.

    13              I mean, is that data available and can the

    14   Committee be provided with this?       Because this isn't a new

    15   discussion w e ' r e having.   We've had this discussion

    16   before.    There's a level of frustration about the

    17   information w e ' r e getting and the level of detail that

    18   we're getting.

    19              MR. ACKEN:    Chairman Boucek and Committee Member

    20   Rich, that's correct.      You know, this is a conversation

    21   w e ' v e had before.   I recall in the TS-9 case that was

    22   about a year ago there was a request to see some of the

    23   data in support.

    24              Certainly, you know, there's data that's

    25   contained in the application, and there's additional


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     supporting documentation.      Perhaps we can revisit that on

     a break as to what exactly might be of interest to the

     Committee to see in this particular case.

               MEMBER RICH:    Yeah.    I don't know how the other

 5   Committee members feel, but there's just this certain

 6   level of frustration that every question has another

7    answer that leads us back to where we are.        But it all

 8   seems very amorphous and, like I said, it's not very data

9    driven.

10             CHMN. BOUCEK:    Part of the frustration I think

11   I ' m feeling from people is that they're looking at maps

12   that maybe have dots and things like that.        But maybe if

13   we had information with data.       For example, we've had to

14   ask a number of questions about the number of houses here,

15   the number of houses there, that kind of data that you

16   might have showing.    Just, you know, rather than in a

17   pictorial form, maybe in a table form or something like

18   that, if you have that kind of data.

19             MR. ACKEN:   And we certainly have some of those

20   materials.   Again, what I would recommend is that we take

21   this up after our direct case and it's perhaps something

22   we can present on rebuttal.       I think I ' m understanding

23   what you're looking for and get you the data that you are

24   looking for.

25             CHMN. BOUCEK:    One other thing I just wanted


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 1   to - - that I thought of, and I don't know if this will

 2   work.    In looking at the map, it appears to me that this

 3   quarter section that Mr. Smith has just described may

 4   actually run through one of the intervenors - -

 5               Mr. Bhakta, does this run through the Lonesome

 6   Valley partnership, the Roberts property, if you were to

 7   do the proposed quarter section that Mr. Smith was talking

 8   about?    You know, paralleling the Curry Road, if you went

 9   down, wouldn't that intersect some of your client's

10   property?

11              MR. BHAKTA:      Yes, that is correct.

12               CHMN. BOUCEK:    And is your client going to be

13   testifying later in this proceeding?

14              MR. BHAKTA:      Yes, he is.

15               CHMN. BOUCEK:     Perhaps we could address this

16   situation with an actual landowner in the area to get

17   their views on how they would, you know, react to a

18   proposal to have that quarter section - - have the line go

19   down that quarter section.

20              MR. BHAKTA:      That would be no problem.

21               CHMN. BOUCEK:     Thank you.

22              Mr. Smith.

23              MEMBER SMITH:      I think in some of the other

24   applications we've had presentations come a bit more

25   quantitatively as to your justifications.             And it seems to


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     1   be - - it's not that we don't trust you, but it's just the

     2   fact that these are major decisions that we have to make.

     3   And I think in some of the other applications we've had,

     4   the presentations seemed to be much better justified and

     5   more thoroughly justified so that it makes it a little

     6   easier for us to make decisions as to why you have made

     7   the decisions you have.

     8              And as I say, we want to trust you, but sometimes

     9   we just don't get a good, firm answer.

    10              CHMN. BOUCEK:    Mr. Eberhart.

    11              MEMBER EBERHART:     Thank you.     I did have a couple

    12   of questions.

    13              One point I would want to make would be also on

    14   Figure H - 1   that also shows the potential future

    15   development, the yellow hatched areas.

    16              And I think the testimony was that those were

    17   obtained at the public meetings through input from people

    18   that attended the public meetings.        Those had not been - -

    19   were not plats or preliminary plats or anything like that

    20   that had been filed, but ideas in people's minds about

    21   where they wanted to develop.

    22              But looking at Figure H-1, it appears that

    23   Mr. Smith's quarter section alignment would impact even
I
    24   less potential future developments than the half mile or

    25   the Curry Road alignment.


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 1                And I didn't know what section your clients - -

2    Mr. Bhakta, if you could tell us, do you know what section

 3   your client's property is on?

 4                MR. BHAKTA:    Yes.    Well, the property       --   sorry.
 5                Mr. Roberts' property runs just         --   well, it's not

 6   very contiguous, but it runs all the way from Kleck Road

7    west of the preferred alignment, and then it comes

 8   following down Curry Road and crosses over Curry Road just

9    south of Storey Road.

10                MEMBER EBERHART:      Okay.   Thank you.      But I did

11   have a question for the Applicant or Ms. Pollio.

12

13                             FURTHER EXAMINATION

14

15       Q.       (BY MEMBER EBERHART)      I wanted some clarification

16   on the fairgrounds and the SRP certificated line.                 I know

17   you're not representing SRP, but your background said that

18   you were involved in the case, so you may remember.                   If

19   you don't, that's fine, too.

20                The SRP line has not been built yet?

21       A.       Correct.

22       Q.       Do you recall how wide their certificated

23   corridor in this 3,000 feet swath was?

24       A.       I ' m not 100 percent certain on that.

25                MR. ACKEN:    We can get that information.


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         Q.   (BY MEMBER EBERHART)         Okay.    Do you know if their

     design has been done yet?         If they have - - I saw in your
     schedule that you had met with SRP early in the process to

 4   review the fairgrounds property, et cetera.

 5            Have they completed their design of their line

 6   alignment?     Do you know?

 7       A.   I have not been included in those meetings.

 8   That's more of an engineering topic.

9        Q.   Okay.     I ' m just curious if it's too far down the

10   road for SRP and APS to jointly have their lines south of

11   the fairgrounds.

12            The fairgrounds is directly adjacent to the

13   Highway 287?

14      A.    To 11 Mile Corner Road?

15       Q.   Correct.     I t ' s on that northeast corner of the

16   intersection there.       It's north of the 3,000-foot southern

17   portion, southern corridor; right?

18      A.    Yes.     It is   --   it does not abut Highway 287.        The

19   fairgrounds, it's offset slightly to the south and runs - -

20   and I think the best is RS-45 outlines the fairgrounds

21   property, and that's on the screen now.             It's outlined

22   with the yellow box.

23       Q.   So you don't know if SRP would be able to - - if
24   their certificated alignment would - - if it was wide

25   enough to allow them to also be off the fairgrounds


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 1   property?

 2       A.      My understanding is that the certificated

 3   corridor in the SRP case is 1,000 feet, which would not - -

 4   that certificated corridor would not allow them to go

 5   south of the fairgrounds.

 6               MEMBER EBERHART:    Okay.     Thank you.

 7               CHMN. BOUCEK:    Any more questions from the

 8   Committee?

 9               (No response.)

10               CHMN. BOUCEK:    Mr. Acken, did you have any more

11   redirect?

12            MR. ACKEN:     No more follow-up.        Thank you,

13   Chairman.    That completes our direct case.

14               CHMN. BOUCEK:    Thank you.

15               During the course of this proceeding so far we've

16   heard some testimony about the potential participation of

17   the Electric District No. 2 in this project.            Therefore,

18   in view of that potential participation, the Committee

19   would like to call a representative of the Electric

20   District No. 2 to testify before this Committee.

21               Is there someone in the room that would be

22   willing to do that?

23            MR. CAMPBELL:       If you give us a moment, we'll

24   clear out some space here.

25               CHMN. BOUCEK:    Certainly.


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 1              (Brief pause.)

 2              MR. McGINNIS:    My name is Mark McGinnis.            I'm

 3   from the firm Salmon, Lewis       &    Weldon, general counsel for

 4   Electrical District No. 2.        I have with me today Tom

 5   Martin who is the general manager, who is going to be our

 6   witness.

 7              And we assumed we would do a normal question and

 8   answer format to facilitate his testimony.

 9              CHMN. BOUCEK:    Thank you very much.

10              (Thomas Martin was duly sworn.)

11              CHMN. BOUCEK:    Thank you.       Could you please state

12   your full name for the record and your title.

13              THE WITNESS:    Yes.       My name is Thomas Martin, and

14   I am the general manager of Electrical District No. 2.

15              CHMN. BOUCEK:    Thank you.

16

17                              THOMAS MARTIN,

18   called as a witness on behalf of Electrical District

19   No. 2 , having been previously duly sworn by the Certified

20   Reporter to speak the truth and nothing but the truth, was

21   examined and testified as follows:

22

23                         DIRECT EXAMINATION

24

25       Q.     (BY MR. McGINNIS)      Mr. Martin, could you give the


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 1   Committee your educational background.

 2       A.     Yes.   I ' m getting a little bit long in the tooth

 3   here.    I have a bachelor's of electrical engineering

 4   degree from California State Polytechnic University in

 5   1975, and I have been working in the utility industry

 6   continuously since then.

 7       Q.     And what was your work experience in the utility

 8   industry before you got to the Electrical District 2?

 9      A.      Well, out of college I worked for Pacific Gas       &

10   Electric in their electrical engineering department and

11   then the rates department.       And then subsequently I was in

12   the consulting business for a while.       And then I worked

13   for a large el ctric cooper tive, and then I assumed my

14   present position where I am.

15       Q.     How long have you been at ED-2?

16      A.      About 18 years.

17       Q.     And as general manager are you responsible for

18   the day-to-day operations of the District?

19      A.      Yes, I am.

20       Q.     And are you familiar with the power supply and

21   the power needs of the District?

22      A.      Yes, I am.

23       Q.     Could you tell the Committee what ED-2 is?

24      A.      Yes.   Electrical District No. 2 is a special

25   district under Title 48 of the Arizona statutes.       I guess


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 1   the simplest way to kind of look it, for those of you who

 2   are not familiar with electrical districts and other

 3   special districts like us, is we're kind of like a

 4   miniature version of an SRP.     We're about one

 5   one-hundredth of the scale of SRP to kind of give you a

 6   relative size.

 7               On the slide to the left, that is an area map of

 8   our district boundaries, and so it kind of gives you a

 9   relation.    We're about 40-some miles - - well, if you have

10   driven it from the Phoenix area, you know how far it is.

11            Our district is off - - well, we'll get to another

12   map probably where you can see it a little better, but you

13   can see the boundaries of the District.         On the west, we

14   are close to the western, right here, boundary of the

15   District.    And to the north we go up to the edge of the

16   reservation, which you can see in the kind of the brown

17   shaded area there.    We go on up past Coolidge up to the

18   Florence area, and then the southern end of the District

19   goes down to about the northern boundary of Eloy, although

20   they're annexing further north now.

21       Q.      So you had testified that the District is

22   somewhat like SRP.     ED-2 doesn't provide water, just

23   power; right?

24       A.   No, we don't provide water.       But we do provide

25   power for pumping, which is similar for agricultural


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      1   purposes.

     2        Q.     And over time has the District’s load and

      3   customers changed?

      4       A.      Yes.    Originally, the District was founded

      5   primarily to serve as a source of power for pumping for

      6   arid lands.       Since that time, though, w e ’ v e also added

     7    commercial, residential, and industrial customers.

      8       Q.      Can you give the Committee some examples of your

      9   commercial/industrial customers presently?

     10      A.      Well, we serve an industrial park here in

     11   Casa Grande, in fact, right across the street from this

     12   facility.    We also - - one of the newer ones, if you came
     13   down Interstate 10 and then turned east           --   west, excuse

     14   me, on Florence Boulevard or 287, you saw the new Westcor

     15   mall.    That is in our service area.

     16       Q.     Does ED-2 also serve a lot of residential

     17   developments now?

I    18       A.     Yes.     W e ’ r e serving several residential

I    19   developments that are relatively new.         Our total district
     20   customer count is about 4,200.

     21       Q.      Does the District continue to serve irrigation

     22   loads?

     23       A.      Yes, we do.

     24       Q.     You mentioned that the District now has 4,200


10   25   customers.     Is that the highest that the District has ever


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 1   had?

 2          A.   Yes, it is.

 3          Q.   What is the District's peak load for 2007?

 4       A.      Our peak load for the District in      --   I believe it

 5   was August of this last year, was 58 megawatts.

 6          Q.   And is that the highest the District has ever

 7   had?

 8       A.      I believe so.

 9          Q.   Would you say it's your belief as the general

10   manager of ED-2 that the recent growth in the area has

11   caused your load to increase?

12      A.       Oh, dramatically so.    We're seeing just the tip

13   of the iceberg here.      The mall is certainly by itself

14   capable of adding 10 to 15 megawatts of load to our

15   existing load levels.

16               A number - - as you have seen from testimony

17   already provided, much of the land in our district has

18   already been annexed into either Coolidge or Casa Grande,

19   and in some cases Eloy.      Much of the land is now - - has

20   been submitted for PADS or is already platted.

21               There is a lot of farming going on, but I think

22   if you looked underneath the farming you'll find that

23   there is a developer that owns the land.

24          Q.   And the Chair previously mentioned that ED-2 was

25   a participant in the line that we're going to talk about


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 1   today.

 2               Has ED-2 executed a memorandum of agreement with

 3   APS on this line?

 4       A.      Yes, we have.

 5       Q.      Does that relate to the first ph se of the line?

 6       A.      Yes, it does.
 7       Q.      And has it been approved by the ED-2 board of

 8   directors?

 9       A.     Yes, it has.

10       Q.     Could you explain to the Committee how the ED-2

11   board of directors is elected and how it works?

12       A.     The District is governed by an independently

13   elected board of directors.       There are five members of the

14   board.    They represent five different precincts, which

15   kind of subdivide the geographic areas of the District,

16   and are elected to three-year terms.

17       Q.     And did that elected board approve this

18   memorandum of agreement?

19       A.     Yes.
20       Q.     And is it ED-2's intent to continue to

21   participate in the subsequent phases of this project,

22   including construction and operation?

23      A.      Yes, it is.
24      Q.      Could you tell the Committee a little bit about

25   some regional planning, power load planning that's been



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 1   done in relation to this project.

2        A.   Well, yes.     I think it's kind of important to
 3   take a step back and look at this project from not just

 4   the local level but from, you know, stepping up to the

 5   regional, and then the larger regional and national area.

 6            This whole thing is generated from NERC, National

 7   Electric Reliability Council, which governs the WECC.          I

 8   think that's the Western Electric Coordinating Council,

 9   which in turn covers the areas - - most of the western

10   United States for planning and coordination and

11   reliability purposes.

12            WECC then kind of is composed of other groups,

13   and Westconnect is one of them.       And you're probably

14   familiar with Westconnect and the members of Westconnect.

15            Then, the next subdivision down from that is the

16   SWAT, Southwest Area Transmission, and that's comprised

17   primarily of the local states here.       It would be Southern

18   California, Arizona, New Mexico, and I believe Nevada.

19   There may be parts of other states in there, too.

20            And the CATS study, which was referenced in

21   testimony yesterday, is a subcommittee of SWAT.       And they

22   are charged with looking at more regional, which would be

23   the south of Phoenix area and looking at what kind of

24   development is ultimately needed.       This is all reported

25   back up, then, and then kind of aggregated at the SWAT and


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     1   then at the WECC levels.

     2            Now, when this was done, it was looked at as a

     3   saturated load study for the area, and it was looked at at

     4   two levels.   One is at full saturation and one is at half

     5   saturation.   And at the level of the half saturation,

     6   these lines, and in particular this line between Sundance

     7   and Pinal South, was needed as part of that study in order

     8   to make everything balance.

     9            So the development of this line is a regional

    10   resource, but in particular ED-2 needs it specifically for

    11   our future load needs.

    12            CHMN. BOUCEK:    Mr. Eberhart.

    13            MEMBER EBERHART:      Could I ask the witness to

    14   define what you mean by saturation?         I didn't understand

    15   what that meant.

    16            THE WITNESS:    Well, a saturation study is

    17   basically if you filled out all of the available areas

    18   that could be built upon, what would your load look like?

    19            MEMBER EBERHART:      Thank you.

    20       Q.   (BY MR. McGINNIS)     Mr. Martin, is it your belief

    21   as the general manager of ED-2 that this project will have

    22   benefits to ED-2?

    23       A.   Definitely.    At the present time - - and maybe

I   24   could you bring up the next slide for us, please.

    25            That maps looks a little bit busy, but as you can


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 1   see there - - hopefully you can see it.         There it is.

2               That area right there is the Sundance power

 3   plant.    Right now that power plant is owned by APS, but

 4   the transmission lines that leave the plant are owned by

 5   Western Area Power Administration.

 6              For the District, we have substations in Casa

 7   Grande.   We have one by the fairgrounds there, ED-2.           We

 8   have one at Signal, which is right there, and we have one

9    at Coolidge, which is right there.

10             Those substations have met our needs up to this
11   point in time, but now with new loads coming in,

12   particularly the location of these loads, we are forced to

13   build our first new substation in over 30 years.

14             And in order to do that, we are building right

15   there on the north side of the existing Sundance

16   switchyard, 230kV switchyard, and we will be putting in a

17   230 to 69 switchyard of our own, and then building

18   transmission from there down to the interstate, right

19   about there where the mall is, and we have a substation

20   site already there.

21              So we have two sources of major power supply in
22   the future.    One is going to be Sundance because there are

23   three lines coming to Sundance, one from Liberty and two

24   from Coolidge.    The other source is going to be the Pinal

25   South station.


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 1            Electrical District No. 2 is a participant in the

2    Palo Verde/Southeast Valley line, at least from Palo Verde

 3   to Pinal South.   We don't really have an interest past

 4   that point.   So we anticipate receiving our bulk power

 5   supply here and here off into the future.

              Our own saturation study, which was part of the
 7   CATS study, shows that for this area here - - kind of in

8    this where I ' m circling - - we expect a future customer

 9   count on the order of 125,000, and a future load on the

10   order of 450 megawatts.

11            So these two sites are where we anticipate

12   primarily most of our resource coming in, and so it's

13   important that we be able to connect these two sites.          If

14   APS had not come in, at some point in time we would be

15   sitting here making the same presentation as ED-2.

16       Q.   And does the Pinal South site allow you to access

17   the Palo Verde?

18       A.   Yes, it does.    The Pinal South site is directly

19   connected to Palo Verde via Pinal West station.       And so at

20   500kV, we will be connected down to the 230kV.       And the

21   230kV connection from Pinal South to Sundance gives us a

22   way of bringing power directly from Palo Verde up to

23   Sundance.

24       Q.   And is there a benefit to ED-2 and its customers

25   of having access to Palo Verde?


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         A.     We think there is.    Palo Verde is the major

     trading hub in Arizona.     In fact, one of the larger

     regional hubs in the Southwest.

         Q.     Do you believe that the Sundance to Pinal South

     project will help the reliability of the ED-2 system and

     the regional system?

         A.     Yes, it definitely will.     If there's something

     that happens, we will be able to, by participation, move

 9   power from Pinal South to Sundance, or conversely from

10   Sundance to Pinal South, both of which will be major 69kV

11   locations for us.

12       Q.     Are there also capacity benefits?

13       A.     Well, capacity benefits derive from the fact that

14   we anticipate participating in the first line to the

15   extent that we have capacity here.       So we can move that

16   capacity from Sundance, which is where our first 69 would

17   be, down to Pinal South, which is where we anticipate our

18   next 69kV to be.

19       Q.     If this Sundance/Pinal project is constructed

20   along Curry Road, would it be the District's intent to at

21   some point construct a 69kV underbuild there?

22       A.     As a matter of fact, it works out    --   I ' m not sure
23   if I ' m pointing right.   I ' m kind of at a bit of an angle

24   here.    If this is Curry Road, we have already looked at - -

25   this map, let me explain a little bit more about it.


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 1              In meeting our anticipated future buildout or

 2   saturated load, we have looked at where we might need

 3   substations.    Our criteria for planning a substation is

 4   about four square miles.     I think different utilities are

 5   similar to that, but they may have some local variances.

 6   Based on that, we have to connect those substations

 7   together with 69kV lines.

 8              And we have, before this was even planned, we had

 9   come up with a generic planning map - - and we've shared

10   this with the local jurisdictions, including the County - -

11   that show we needed a line that was somewhere in the area

12   and a substation that was somewhere in the area of Curry

13   Road.

14              If we are able to underbuild the 230kV line with

15   a 69kV line, it saves us from acquiring additional

16   right-of-way, it avoids paralleling lines, and it would be

17   cheaper.

18       Q.     Have we covered at least in a general sense all

19   of the benefits of the project to ED-2 that you think the

20   Committee needs to hear about?

21      A.      I believe so, unless there's other questions.

22       Q.     Is it your belief as the general manager of ED-2

23   that this project will benefit Pinal County as well as

24   others in APS's service area?

25       A.     Well, I think APS certainly is part of Pinal


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 1   County.    And to the extent that they're able to move more

 2   power throughout their local area system, then it helps

 3   more than just ED-2's customers.

 4       Q.     Is it ED-2's position to support the route

 5   suggested by APS in this proceeding?

 6      A.      Yes.

 7              MR. McGINNIS:    Mr. Martin is available for

 8   questions from the Committee or from the intervenors.

 9              CHMN. BOUCEK:    Thank you very much.

10              Committee members?

11              Mr. Haenichen.

12

13                               EXAMINATION

14

15       Q.     (BY MEMBER HAENICHEN)    I t ' s been made clear

16   throughout these proceedings that the Sundance plant is a

17   peaking plant using combustion turbines, and except for

18   emergencies would not be used for base-load power.

19              Did I hear your testimony correctly, did you

20   imply or say that there are plans to bring base-load type

21   power into that region where Sundance is?

22              And then the corollary question would be, would

23   this new line be carrying base-load energy as well as

24   peaking?

25       A.     To answer that, all of the power that ED-2 serves


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 1   its customers is purchased power.        So when we purchase
 2   power, we're purchasing base-load power and we're

 3   purchasing peaking power.      We bring the power in on the

 4   existing Western transmission lines that serve this area

 5   at this point in time.     We will also bring power in on the

 6   Palo Verde/Southeast Valley 500kV line when it's built.

 7              So I guess your question maybe has two parts.

 8   One is we use the transmission system to bring all of our

9    power needs in, base load and peaking.          And then the

10   second part of that question is to the extent that local

11   generation is in the area, would it be base load or

12   peaking?   And I think the answer to that is kind of, in

13   the long-term, both.

14       Q.     But I thought you said   --   maybe I ' m mistaken - -

15   that base-load energy would come from the Palo Verde hub

16   to the Sundance area.     And if that's true, if that's what

17   you meant, how does it get there?        On what lines?

18       A.     Okay.   We do not - - I want to put this in two

19   phases.    Presently, there is no way for us to get power

20   from Palo Verde directly.

21              So we purchase our power primarily at Pinnacle

22   Peak, which is, if you look at the - - can I get that RS-2

23   slide up, please?

24              Here we go.   This line right here, the yellow

25   hatched marked line, that line goes up to Pinnacle Peak.


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 1   We buy most of our power there.       But the way Western's

2    system is interconnected, some of that power comes - -

 3   flows over this line, and some of it flows over this line.

 4   So when we purchase power, we identify location.          And

 5   right now most of that is at Pinnacle Peak.          But we have

 6   network service transmission from Western, and that means

 7   that the power can come over any of these paths to get to

 8   our substations.

 9       Q.   I must apologize, because maybe I ' m color blind,

10   but I can't see those little red pointers.

11            Are you then saying that in the future, if this

12   new line is built south from Sundance, that base-load

13   energy from Palo Verde hub would flow on the two existing

14   yellow dashed lines that now serve to exit energy from

15   Sundance to the north, and instead that energy would come

16   from the north to the south along those lines?

17       A.   Yes.   Energy will flow - - here is the Palo Verde

18   line, if you can see the red.     I know my hand bounces

19   around a lot.

20            The 500kV line will be bringing in power from

21   Palo Verde.   Whether it's peaking power or base load or a

22   combination of both is kind of a      --   identified in the

23   contract that you ultimately sign.         But power does flow

24   both ways on those Western lines.          It flows north to

25   south; it flows south to north.


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                Q.   On the yellow lines?

                A.   Yes.

                Q.   Why?

                A.   Because that is the way - - it depends on where

         the load is and where your generation is turned on.

                Q.   But my point is - - oh, I understand that it flows
     7   to the north because you have the 420 megawatts of

     8   peaking - -

     9          A.   If i t ' s on.

    10          Q.   - - power there, if i t ' s on.

    11               But now, if it's off, would you take energy from

    12   that dashed line, horizontal line to the right, go all of

    13   the way down to Sundance and then back up?           And if so,

    14   why?     Why not just go straight?

    15       A.      I guess I ' m    --   I don't perhaps understand your

    16   question.     We purchase power from Pinnacle Peak mostly,

    17   and probably - - I couldn't tell you from a power flow

    18   standpoint what line is actually used the most.            But from

    19   a connective standpoint, this line goes up to Pinnacle

    20   Peak and connects up in that direction.

    21               We purchase power at Pinnacle Peak.         How it gets

    22   to our substations, which are scattered around here, is

    23   really a question of power flow, but contractually we

    24   purchase it there.

a   25          Q.   But unless I ' m mistaken, there are at present no


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     lines leaving Sundance other than those two yellow dashed

     lines to the north?

         A.      Yes.   But those lines connect at Coolidge and

     come back this way, and this line connects at Coolidge and

 5   goes that way.

 6       Q.     Again, I can't see the pointer.

 7       A.      Coolidge interconnects with all of these yellow

 8   lines that you see there up on the top of the screen.

 9       Q.      But in the future if the line being considered

10   here today by this Committee were to be permitted and

11   built, namely south from Sundance down into the middle of

12   this region, would you opine that base-load energy from

13   the Palo Verde hub might flow through the yellow dashed

14   lines to Sundance, and then down to your piece?

15      A.      The base-load power, if we were to purchase the

16   base-load power at Sundance      --   excuse me - - at Palo Verde,

17   contractually we would have a path from Palo Verde on the

18   dotted line, Pinal - - or the Palo Verde to Pinal South

19   line.    That would give us our contractual rights.

20       Q.      The blue dotted line?

21       A.      The - - what color is that?     That colored line.

22   The gray?

23       Q.      Gray, okay.   I really am color blind.

24       A.      So that would be our contractual path.

25       Q.     But not those two lines going out of Sundance?


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     1       A.       No.   We could not use - - identify Pinnacle Peak

     2   and Liberty as ways of getting Palo Verde power to our

     3   system.      We would have to have a connection of our own,

     4   and that is supplied by our participation in the Palo

     5   Verde to Pinal South line.

     6       Q.       But right now are you - - is your company

     7   purchasing any of the peaking energy coming out of

     8   Sundance ?

    9        A.       We purchase peaking energy.   We purchase it

    10   mostly on the spot market.       We do have fixed contracts.

    11   And when we do buy on the spot market, we may be buying

    12   from APS from time to time.       In fact, I know we do.      When

    13   we buy from APS, we say, APS, we want to buy 5 megawatts

    14   of power from this period of time to this period of time.

    15   Can you deliver it at Pinnacle Peak?

    16                So whether that power is coming from Sundance or

    17   from some other generating facility, we don't know, and we

    18   don't really care.       But it is being delivered into

    19   Western's transmission system at Pinnacle Peak.

    20       Q.       But why, then, are things going to be better for

    21   your company if this new line is built going south from

    22   Sundance ?
I   23       A.       Well, one of the things is it gives us some

    24   reliability background.       If we were to have some kind of

    25   problems with a system up here, line outages or, in fact,


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 1   that there is some capacity limitation, then we may need

 2   to bring more power from Pinal South up to Sundance.              And

 3   this gives us a way of making that connection.

 4         Q.     But this hasn't been a problem up until now?

 5   This is just possible future - -

 6         A.     Yes.   We're talking about future load planning.

 7         Q.     Let me ask you another question.

 8                Does your company not have any problem paying

 9   what has been described as very high WAPA rates on their

10   lines, and will you continue to do so?

11         A.     Yes, we would.    I guess high is a relative term.

12   High compared to what?        Right now i t ' s the only game in

13   town.      We have no other source of transmission other than

14   Western at the present time.

15         Q.     But it's been testified to this Committee by the

16   Applicant that if this line is built, the cost of

17   transmitting energy out of Sundance will be much cheaper

18   than using the Western lines.

19                Do you think that's true?

ZU         A.     I think I want to clarify your question.       The

21   cos    of energy, of transmitting energy, if that's        --

22         Q.     That's what I ' m talking about.

23         A.     That is a question that APS has to analyze in the

24   context of what their costs are and what their

25   alternatives are.


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 1       Q.      It would be nice to have that analysis, and I ' m

 2   hopeful that they'll present it today.            Thank you.

 3       A.      Yes.   I ' m sorry.   This is just another link in

 4   the chain, and you do need a pretty strong chain to serve

 5   the loads that we serve.

 6               MEMBER HAENICHEN:     Thank you.

 7               CHMN. BOUCEK:    Mr. Smith.

 8

 9                                EXAMINATION

10

11       Q.      (BY MEMBER SMITH)     Mr. Martin, you used the term

12   saturation.     Between now and saturation, do you anticipate

13   the District ever generating its own power, or will it

14   always be acquired power from other sources?

15      A.       The District is a member of the Southwest Public

16   Power Resources Group, which consists of about 35 public

17   power entities in the state and one in Nevada.

18               We are currently looking at and are funding - - we
19   have funded a generation siting study, and we are

20   presently looking at actually constructing a generating

21   unit for the group, in which we would be a participant of

22   that group.

23       Q.      Is it possible to know where that       --   would it be

24   in this area, or would it be somewhere else in the state?

25      A.       We are definitely looking at sites in Pinal


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 1   County.    And I don't think I ' m getting too far off base

 2   here by - - if you look over here in the Randolph area,

 3   which is east of Coolidge, south and east of Coolidge,

 4   that is one site.    Another site is down off the map.         It

 5   would be about down in here in the Eloy area.         Those have

 6   been identified as possible sites for future generation.

 7       Q.     I ' m not sure I know how your boundaries were

 8   determined, but they certainly wander over a rather large

 9   area.    And I recall that when we did the hearings for Palo

10   Verde to Apache Junction it went through all the way

11   around the world almost.

12              Rather large densities were projected both in the

13   Casa Grande and Coolidge area, in the millions.         And I ' m

14   just wondering if you feel that you will always have to be

15   buying power at the mercy of others, or if generation

16   would be a feasible solution?

17      A.      That's a great question.     And our answer is that

18   we would like to have our own resources at least to a

19   certain extent.    But as ED-2, we're too small to be able

20   to attempt that on our own, so we are looking to do that

21   with others in multiple participation projects.

22              MEMBER SMITH:   Thank you very much.

23              CHMN. BOUCEK:   Mr. Eberhart.

24              MEMBER EBERHART:      Thank you.

25


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 1                               EXAMINATION

 2

 3       &.      (BY MEMBER EBERHART)        Just a real quick question.

 4               Along the Curry Road alignment we've seen some

 5   existing photographs that show a 12kV line.            If the Curry

 6   Road alignment was approved, it would include the 230kV

 7   lines with the 69kV underbuild.

 8               Is there any opportunity to combine the 12kV

 9   lines on those same poles so that we could kind of get rid

10   of one set of lines?

11       A.      I don't know that I ' v e seen 230, 69, and 12kV

12   power lines on the same pole.           I don't think it's done

13   very often.

14               Typically, what we see in this kind of a

15   development process is we'll have an existing line that's

16   going to be within the new right-of-way of the road when

17   they expand the right-of-way.           Most of the County roads

18   here are set 33 feet from center.

19               The new arterial and - - major or minor arterial

20   roads, depending on which jurisdiction you're in, range

21   from 55 feet to 75 feet.           And I ' m not certain which one

22   Curry is, whether it's 55          --

23       Q.      I think it's 55.
24       A.      But what that means is that our line would have

25   to b e moved in any event.          And typically when the roads


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 1   are improved is when the developer comes and antes up the

 2   money.   And at that time, most of the developers prefer to

 3   have the lines undergrounded.       And so in most cases where

 4   we have this kind of a situation happen, we end up

 5   undergrounding that line.

 6            MEMBER EBERHART:        Thank you.

 7             CHMN. BOUCEK:    Any other Committee members?

 8            MEMBER WONG:      I ' m just curious, Madam Chair.

9              Is that the - - sir, is it Mr. Martin?

10             THE WITNESS:    Yes.

11            MEMBER WONG:     You're talking about the growth,

12   the anticipated growth, and the need to project out and

13   make sure you have reliable sources of energy; is that

14   right?

15             THE WITNESS:    Yes.

16            MEMBER WONG:     And Sundance has been established

17   as a peaking plant   --   and maybe APS should answer this,

18   it's really a technical question - - but can a peaking

19   plant be converted to a base-load plant to serve the need

20   of a rapidly growing area like this area?        Just curious.

21             THE WITNESS:    Well, I don't know if this - - the
22   way that Sundance has been built, if it could be

23   retrofitted to be a base load or not.         That would have to

24   be answered by APS's engineers.

25            MEMBER WONG:      So it's an engineering issue?


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                 THE WITNESS:      Yes.

                 MR. ACKEN:     We'll provide that answer.

                 MEMBER WONG:      At the appropriate time, if you

 4   would have your witness answer that.          Thank you.

 5               CHMN. BOUCEK:     Any other questions by Committee

 6   members ?

 7               (No response. )

 8               CHMN. BOUCEK:     Mr. Robertson, would you like to

 9   ask questions of the witness?

10               MR. ROBERTSON:     Yes, if that's possible, Chairman

11   Boucek.

12               CHMN. BOUCEK:     Yes.

13

14                            CROSS-EXAMINATION

15

16       Q.      (BY MR. ROBERTSON)       Good afternoon, Mr. Martin.

17   My name is Larry - - it is afternoon.         My name is Larry

18   Robertson, and I ' m representing Pinal County.

19               You indicated during the course of Mr. McGinnis's

20   direct examination of you that you were in the hearing

21   room yesterday; is that correct?

22       A.      Yes.

23       Q.      So you are aware that Pinal County is strongly

24   opposed to APS's preferred route as it would transect the

25   Pinal County Fairgrounds; is that correct?


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     1       A.   I got that impression, yes.

    2        Q.   I ' m glad we've made that impression clear.

     3            Let me ask you some questions going to the

     4   initial part of Mr. McGinnis's direct examination.

     5            You indicated that you had recently entered into

     6   a memorandum of agreement or a memorandum of understanding

    7    with APS; is that correct?

     8      A.    Yes, we have.

    9        Q.   To what does that pertain as it would relate to

    10   this proceeding?     Does it pertain to the 230kV project

    11   that is the subject of this proceeding, or to a broader

    12   universe, or what?

    13      A.    It specifically pertains to the 230kV

    14   interconnection between Sundance and Pinal South.

    15       Q.   Under that MOA, would Electrical District 2

    16   become a part owner of this 230kV line if it were to be

    17   built?

    18      A.    Yes, we would.

    19       Q.   What would be ED-2's ownership percentage?

    20       A.   What we are looking for is approximately

    21   150 megawatts of capacity between the two.       So we set this
    22   up originally to be a 25 percent participation in Phase I ,

I   23   and then a true-up with whatever ultimate participation
I
~
    24   might be when we actually get to the construction and
I

    25   design phase of this thing.


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     1               And so I kind of want to hedge that a little bit,

     2   because 1 5 0 megawatts may be 1 5 percent of the line, or it

     3   may be 2 5 percent of the line, depending on what the line

     4   is ultimately rated at.

     5       Q.      Yesterday afternoon there was testimony         --     I
     6   forget if it was from Mr. Bernosky or Mr. Spitzkoff                --

     7   that the transmission capacity on the conductors that APS

     8   was proposing to use on the line was on the order of 1 , 2 0 0

     9   megawatts.

    10               How would the 1 5 0 megawatts figure that you just

    11   referred to relate to that 1 , 2 0 0 megawatt figure?

    12       A.      Well, it would be some percentage less than 1 5 .

a   13

    14
         We kind o f started off assuming about 1 , 0 0 0 megawatts, and

         that's why we were kind of looking at the 1 5 percent

    15   share.

    16       Q.      Okay.   So if it goes up to 1 , 2 0 0 ,   then the

    17   1 5 percent - -

    1%       A.      Would be more.

    19       Q.      - - would be a lower number.

    20               Now, does that percentage, be it 1 5 or

    21   1 0 percent, translate into a linear relationship on what

    22   your cost would be for the cost of the project as built?

    23       A.      Mostly, yes.     There may be some particular items

    24   that are associated with APS's way they build it and how

    25   we would build it.       Because ultimately we will share the


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 1   same line between Pinal South and to where they enter

 2   their switchyard at Sundance, but our switchyard is a

     different location.   And so there may be some re-divvying

     of costs there at that location.

         Q.   Okay.   So, for example, if we used $18 million as

     the cost of the line and 10 percent as your participation

 7   share, ED-2's costs would be on the order of 1.8 million?

 8      A.    That's a fair statement.

 9       Q.   Okay.   Now, if I understand correctly your

10   responses to some of Mr. McGinnis's questions, your

11   interest in this project is not only to bring power from

12   Sundance that might be generated at Sundance to ED-2, but

13   to give you the capacity to bring in power from other

14   sources throughout the western grid; is that correct?

15      A.    Exactly.

16       Q.   Okay.   What is the - - strike that.
17            Who sets the rates for ED-2 to its customers?

18      A.    Our board of directors.

19       Q.   Are you subject to regulation by the Arizona

20   Corporation Commission?

21      A.    No, we are not.

22       Q.   In your rate setting process, do you use the

23   concept of rate base as a part of the process for

24   determining rates?

25      A.    Yes.


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     1       Q.      Okay.   Do you know what the most recent rate base

     2   amount would be for ED-2?

     3       A.      It would be on the order of 30 million.

     4       Q.      30 million?

     5       A.      $30 million.

     6       Q.      Now, you made an interesting comment, if I

     7   understood you correctly, again, I think during the course

     8   of your response to your questioning from Mr. McGinnis or

    9    one of the members of the Committee.       And that was, if I

    10   understood you correctly, but for this 230kV project being

    11   proposed by APS, you would be here in order to address

    12   your need for a 69kV line in the vicinity of Curry Road.

    13               Did I understand you correctly?

    14       A.      Not quite.    We wouldn't be here for a 69kV

    15   project .

    16       Q.      That's why I asked you the question, because that

    17   wouldn't bring you under the jurisdiction of the

    18   Committee.

    19       A.      But I did want to point out that if APS were not

    20   going to build this line, at some point in the future we

    21   would be making a similar presentation because we would

    22   need this line.     This is a great conjugation of needs

    23   here.
I
    24       Q.      Let's pick up on that conjugation.    Is it fair to

    25   say that the 69kV need of ED-2 and the 230kV project can


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 1   be separated from one another?     In other words, there's a

 2   different way to satisfy your 69kV need if you don't have

 3   the 230kV project?

 4      A.      This particular 230kV project?

 5       Q.     Yes.   Let's assume that this wasn't approved.

 6   There would be another way to satisfy your 69kV need; is

 7   that not correct?

 8      A.      Yes, this project, for a certain period of time

 9   anyway.

10       Q.     And also you're aware, by having been here

11   yesterday as well as today, that we now have on the board,

12   so to speak, possibly three or four alternative routes for

13   a 230kV line to move from Sundance to Pinal South; is that

14   correct?

15      A.      Yes.

16       Q.     Would those other alternative routes work for

17   your 69kV needs as well?    And when I say alternative, I

18   mean the other three in addition to APS's preferred route.

19       A.     Our interests - - we are interested in getting the

20   connectivity between Pinal South and Sundance.       We're also

21   interested from a ratepayer standpoint in doing it in the

22   least expensive way we can?     So I hope that's - - within

23   those two guidelines, the route selection is not that

24   critical to us.

25              Although, we did like the Curry Road route


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 1   because - - if you pull that other map up for me.           Thank

 2   you - - we had already identified that as a logical

 3   location for a 69kV line.         And if we can underbuild on an

 4   existing 230kV structure, it saves us money, and then it

 5   also makes it easier for the local residents not to have

 6   another line.

 7          Q.   But picking up on two points in your previous

 8   response, one, the preferred route is actually a million

 9   dollars more expensive than the APS alternate route, is it

10   not?

11       A.      Well, yes.   And that puts     --   again, in context,
12   if we were    --   if they took the alternate route and that

13   was not a g o o d source for us to put our 69kV line, then we

14   would be acquiring additional right-of-way and building

15   additional towers.       So whether that offsets or not, I

16   really couldn't tell you at this point in time.

17          Q.   You seemed to indicate in that previous response

18   also that the connectivity between Sundance and Pinal

19   South was paramount and that any one of the several

20   alternatives could work to achieve that; is that correct?

21          A.   That's fair.

22               MR. ROBERTSON:    That's all I have.       Thank you,

23   Mr. Martin.

24               CHMN. BOUCEK:    Just for a second, I just wanted

25   to see about questioning by the other intervenors of


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 1   Mr. Martin just with regard to scheduling here.            Because I

2    would rather get through with this witness so he

 3   doesn't - - if he has other plans, he doesn't have to stay

 4   past lunch.    Do you have - -

 5            MR. RICH:       Chairman, I have like two or three

 6   questions.

 7            CHMN. BOUCEK:      And Mr. Hains?

 8            MR. HAINS:      Chairman, I don't anticipate having a

9    great number of questions for him.

10            CHMN. BOUCEK:      Mr. Campbell?

11            MR. CAMPBELL:      Chairman Boucek, I have a couple

12   of questions for this witness.       And I was going to ask

13   him, I think he's planning on attending the entire hearing

14   since he's a participant, so I don't know if the lunch

15   break is critical for him or not, but I don't want to

16   speak for him.

17            CHMN. BOUCEK:      Mr. Martin, are you willing to
18   stay on the stand   --

19            THE WITNESS:      That would be fine.

20            CHMN. BOUCEK:       - - beyond lunch?   All right.
21            Then what I'll do, Committee Member Smith had a

22   question.    What I would like to do is allow him to go

23   forward, and then we'll take a break, and then we will

24   continue with the cross-examination after the lunch break.

25            Go ahead, Mr. Smith.


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              MEMBER SMITH:    Thank you, Madam Chairman.

              Mr. Martin, I was trying to find out about      --    by

     memory, I believe this application goes through the year

     2017, if I ' m not mistaken.

 5            Is that right, Mr. Acken, the duration you have

 6   asked for?

 7            MR. ACKEN:    We have asked for a 17-year term.

 8            MEMBER SMITH:    I knew there was a 17 year in

 9   there somewhere.

10            MR. ACKEN:    That's correct.

11

12                         FURTHER EXAMINATION

13

14       Q.   (BY MEMBER SMITH)     How will this affect you if

15   they wait until the end to develop this line?       Is that - -

16       A.   I think that would be problematic.      We probably

17   would be in asking for something perhaps sooner than that.

18       Q.   So i t ' s rather important, then, to know soon what

19   your position will be, or what the Applicant's position,

20   or APS's position?

21       A.   Well, I guess the quickest way to answer that is

22   if this line goes in in 2011 as planned, the Pinal South

23   substation will be in and the line connecting to it will

24   be in in 2011 in the same time frame.       That will allow us

25   to be able to purchase power.    We're already buying at the


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     1   Palo Verde/Southeast Valley line, because that's going in.

    2             And rather than having it dead end at the Pinal

     3   South and nothing that we can do with it because there's

     4   no connection to it at that point in time, having this

     5   line between Pinal South and Sundance at that point in

     6   time will allow us to bring Palo Verde power all the way

     7   up to where our first 69kV is going to be.

     8            So there's some real advantages to us to have

     9   that line in 2011.

    10       Q.   But you might be in deep problems if you have to

    11   wait 17 years?

    12      A.    Yeah.   I think there would be.

    13            MEMBER SMITH:    Thank you.

    14            MR. ACKEN:   Just to clarify the testimony

    15   yesterday, the reason we're asking for a 17-year term was

    16   because that's the term that's on the Southeast Valley

    17   line and the Pinal South substation, which I think I

    18   understand is also ED-2's interest in having those

    19   facilities constructed.    If they're not constructed, then

    20   that changes the dynamic for the timing of this project.

    21            MEMBER SMITH:    Thank you.

    22            CHMN. BOUCEK:    All right.     With that, we'll

I   23   adjourn for lunch.    Rather than giving a time right now,

I   24   we'll say, if we can, I would like to get back here in one

    25   hour, if everyone can do that, so we can get going.


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     1              So we'll recess now for one hour for lunch.
     2              (A recess was taken from 12:30 p.m. to 1:34 p.m.)

     3              CHMN. BOUCEK:   While everyone is getting seated,

     4   I want to address just a couple of procedural matters

     5   before we get back to the testimony.

     6              Let me first say we're back on the record at

     7   1:34 p.m., approximately.

     8              A couple of procedural matters.        First, it looks

     9   to everyone like this hearing will not finish by the end

    10   of the day today, so we're probably going to have to go to

    11   another day, at least, of hearing.       And I spoke with

    12   Mr. Campbell, who has in turn spoken with the intervenors

    13   and others about subsequent dates.

    14              Right now it looks like probably February 11th
    15   and 12th in Phoenix is the date that seems best for

    16   everyone who has been surveyed so far.          However, there are

    17   a few Committee members that can't quite commit, so if we

    18   can leave it until the end of the day today before making

    19   a final decision.    But I just wanted to put that on the

    20   record so everybody else who hasn't done so already can

    21   check their calendars to see if those dates would work for

    22   them.

    23              In addition, I just wanted to make a note that
    24   during the lunch recess Mr. Acken talked to a few members


0   25   of the Committee in response to basically our request for


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 1   some additional information.    We had requested more

2    information.

3             Mr. Acken and Ms. Pollio approached us.       They

4    wanted to basically find out if the kind of information

 5   they had was the information we were seeking.       And they

 6   showed us one slide, I guess, or one thing on their

 7   computer, which we have asked them to reproduce for us and

 8   to distribute to all of the intervenors, as well as the

9    Members of the Committee, so just you'll know what we were

10   looking at.

11            And then I guess we just decided to stop the

12   conversation at that point because it was kind of getting

13   more involved, and we wanted to make sure that we were on

14   the record and everything was said in context about this

15   information.

16            So at this point I would like to continue the
17   conversation a bit.   There was a bit of concern about        --

18   we did indicate to Mr. Acken that we thought the

19   information he showed us was good, and that we would even

20   want more of this background information.

21            There was some concern - - and I don't want to
22   speak for Mr. Acken, but there was some concern about, you

23   know, the proprietary nature of the information that we

24   were requesting.   I think that we still are interested in

25   obtaining more of the supporting documentation, you know,


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 1   behind that particular slide that you showed us.

 2               MR. ACKEN:   Thank you, Chairman.

 3               With respect to the slide that we showed you on

 4   the break, we will make sure that it's available for

 5   intervenors and other Committee members to see today,

 6   whether we have copies of it or they just look on the

 7   computer, so they'll be able to see what that discussion

 8   was.

 9               With respect to supporting documentation, since

10   we'll be coming back on February 11 and 12, that would be

11   the time that we will have additional information

12   available.     Perhaps we can have a procedural conference

13   before the hearing and discuss what, if any, measures need

14   to be taken with respect to that additional documentation

15   at that time.

16               CHMN. BOUCEK:     All right.    That sounds like a

17   good proposal.      We'll go ahead and we'll - - as long as you

18   make sure that before the end of the hearing today that

19   the others have access, at least, or are allowed to view

20   that screen that we saw, and then I think the procedural,

21   you know, meeting would be - - conference would be good as

22   well to go over that in more detail.

23               All right.   That being said, are there any other

24   procedural matters before we go back to testimony?

25               (No response. )


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              CHMN. BOUCEK:    All right.     And we left off, if I

     recall, Mr. Robertson, had you finished your examination

     of Mr. Martin?

              MR. ROBERTSON:    Yes, ma'am, I have.

              CHMN. BOUCEK:     Okay.   At this time, Mr. Rich, do

     you have questions for the witness?

 7            MR. RICH:    Chairman, I do.

 8

 9                         CROSS-EXAMINATION

10

11       Q.   (BY MR. RICH)    Good afternoon, Mr. Martin.

12      A.    Good afternoon.

13       Q.   A couple of quick questions for you here.       I know

14   you serve a largely rural area.       Do you deal with a lot of

15   concerns of farmers as they relate to the location of

16   transmission lines?

17       A.   Recently we certainly have.

18       Q.   And are you aware of some of the concerns

19   expressed by farmers, and what are those?

20       A.   Well, I guess with respect to transmission lines,

21   most of the farmers are also concerned about how it's

22   going to impact their land and how they can use their

23   land, what they can do with their land in the future.

24       Q.   And do you find that some of those concerns are

25   exacerbated when the line itself is sited through the


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 1   middle of the field, as opposed to along a section line?

 2       A.     Certainly one of the things that we're - - my
 3   experience is more we're siting 6 9 k V line, but it's

 4   fundamentally the same issues as the higher voltage.

 5              And no farmer particularly likes having towers or

 6   poles in the middle of an irrigated field if they're

 7   planning on still farming that field.        It means they can't

 8   get their implements around and it becomes an issue for

 9   them.

10              MR. RICH:    Thank you.    Those are the only

11   questions that I have.

12              CHMN. BOUCEK:    Mr. Hains, do you have any

13   questions for the witness?

14              MR. HAINS:   Yes.     Thank you, Chairman.

15

16                           CROSS-EXAMINATION

17

18       Q.     (BY MR. HAINS)      Hello, Mr. Martin, how are you?

19      A.      Good afternoon.     Thank you.

20       Q.     First, one general question for perspective's

21   sake.    Do you have any general idea of percentage-wise how

22   much of the total load in Pinal County that ED-2

23   represents?

24      A.      No, I really couldn't answer that.

25       Q.     Not even in a vague sense?


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 1       A.   Well, maybe ballpark, 10 percent.

 2       Q.   Okay.   And you indicated that your anticipated

 3   load is going to increase dramatically over the coming

 4   years?

 5       A.   We anticipate it, yes.

 6       Q.   Do you have any idea, like, how quickly or how

 7   precipitously this increase is going to take place?

 8      A.    Well, a couple of years ago I was saying it was

 9   happening now and it was going to be incredibly difficult

10   to keep up with the base.      It's since slowed down, but the

11   County and local population projections are still showing,

12   you know, growth on the order of 7 to 10 percent.       And it

13   remains to be seen whether that happens, but it's a very

14   high rate of growth.

15       Q.   Now, if I understand the general situation of

16   ED-2 with respect to your ability to acquire power from

17   the north, right now there's only the one access point; is

18   that correct?    Through the WAPA lines, the 115, the double

19   115 towers going into Signal, and then into the ED-2

20   station; is that correct?

21       A.   Well, actually, there's three lines there.

22   There's a line that comes in from Santa Rosa to Casa

23   Grande, and we have a substation in Casa Grande.       So
24   that's one 230kV connection.

25            There's also - - at Coolidge we have a connection


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 1   that we serve directly out of Coolidge, as does APS.

 2   There's also two lines, two 115kV lines that come down.

 3   One goes into Signal substation and one goes - - and then

 4   another bypasses Signal and goes straight to ED-2, and

 5   then the second one that goes into Signal goes from there

 6   to ED-2 station, and then their lines go south from there.

 7       Q.    Okay.   So for my clarification purposes, then,

 8   you're not suggesting that you have a constraint in number

 9   of paths coming in; would that be correct?

10       A.    The number of paths is one part of it.        There

11   are - - if you look at Sundance, there are three 230kV

12   lines coming into Sundance, and that happens to be right

13   almost smack in the middle of our service territory.            It's

14   a great location for us to build.

15             And when I'm looking at this, you've got to

16   understand that 58 megawatts today and 400-and-some

17   megawatts 20 years from now, we've got to start planning

18   and making commitments to be able to serve those load

19   levels.   We can't do it a megawatt at a time.      We have to

20   bite off some pretty big pieces in increments.       That's one

21   of the reasons that w e ' r e specifically looking at

22   Sundance, because it represents a bigger place to bring

23   power into than any of the little substations around the

24   periphery.

25       Q.    And as you said, it is right down the middle of


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 1   your service territory.

2               You indicated that you had done a high saturation

     study at one point; is that correct?

        A.      Yes.

 5       Q.     And when you did that study, did you contemplate

 6   the potential that the double 115kV WAPA lines that are

7    roughly parallel just to the east of the proposed project,

8    that those might be upgraded sometime in the future to

9    double 230s?

10      A.      The CATS-HV study does have those lines

11   eventually being upgraded to 230.

12      Q.      And would ED-2 have a proportionate increase in

13   its scheduling rights of the increased capacity on those

14   lines?

15      A.      If we paid for the upgrade.

16       Q.     Okay.   And with respect to the costs of the

17   various proposed alignments, the two proposed alignments

18   and, I guess, the third hybrid, which is, I guess, mostly

19   a variation on the preferred, do you have a preference

20   cost-wise as to which one is chosen?

21       A.     I t ' s like asking me to judge a pretty baby

22   contest.    The customers to the south at Tierra Grande are

23   served by ED-2.     We serve the fairgrounds.    You know, my

24   answer, I guess    --   as I mentioned earlier, we're - - our
25   biggest concern, of course, is the connectivity getting


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     point to point, and the other thing I said was cost.

              All other things being equal - - and granted, they

     seldom are - - I prefer the lower cost alternative.      And if

     the lower cost alternative happens to be going on the

     preferred route, all other things being equal, that would

     be better for our customers.

         Q.   But you need the access, the connectivity?

         A.   That's the critical one.

 9            MR. HAINS:     Thank you.    I don't think I have any

10   more questions.

11            CHMN. BOUCEK:    Mr. Campbell.

12            MR. CAMPBELL:    Thank you, Chairman Boucek.        Just

13   a few questions.

14

15                         CROSS-EXAMINATION

16

17       Q.   (BY MR. CAMPBELL)     Mr. Martin, you in your

18   testimony talked about the process by which this Sundance

19   project was identified as an important part of planning

20   for Pinal County.   Do you remember that testimony?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   And was that the CATS study, the Central Arizona

23   Transmission Study project?

24       A.   Yes, it was.

25       Q.   And did municipalities as well as utilities


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 1   participate in that process?

         A.     Yes, they did.     In fact, I think that it's in one

     of the slides.    On the RS-3?

                There we go.     Those are the lists of the

     utilities that participated in the CATS-HV study.        And the

     municipalities did, the County did, most all of the

     electric utilities, including Western, participated in

     that.

 9       Q.     And the project that's before the Committee now

10   was included as part of that plan resulting from that

11   study; is that correct?

12      A.      Yes, it was.

13       Q.     Now, did the Western Area Power Administration

14   object to this line during the course of those CATS

15   studies?

16       A.     No.

17       Q.     And you indicated that that plan also indicated

18   that the Western Area Power Administration lines between,

19   I think it's Signal and ED-2, were going to be upgraded;

20   is that correct?

21       A.     They are in Western's plan to be upgraded, but

22   they have been in Western's plan to be upgraded for some

23   time now.

24       Q.     And the CATS study indicated that both that

25   upgrade and this project were an important part of


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 1   planning for Pinal County?

 2        A.    Yes, they're all part of the total picture.

 3        Q.    They're not mutually exclusive?

 4        A.    No.

 5              MR. CAMPBELL:     And let's go back to the map,

 6   Tyler, that was up there before.        Do we have a pointer

 7   handy here?

 8        Q.    (BY MR. CAMPBELL)     Did I understand you correctly

 9   in the sense that - - actually, let's do the - - I think

10   i t ' s RS-2.    If that's the electrical connection map, i t ' s

11   a little clearer, I think, for what I want to do.

12              All right.     And Mr. Martin, I take it ED-2 is

13   planning to build a substation right here at the Sundance

14   plant; is that correct?

15       A.     Yes, we are.     230 to 69kV.

16       Q.     And will that substation receive power from

17   whatever sources - - I understand it could be a variety of

18   sources from the spot market, but will that receive power

19   by having power come down these Western lines into your

20   substation?

21       A.     Yes, it will.

22       Q.     Okay.     And will that substation then be able to

23   send power down the Sundance line if it's built?

24       A.     Yes, it could.

25       Q.     Okay.     And you probably heard some discussion


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     1   yesterday - - you were here yesterday, weren't you,

    2    Mr. Martin?

    3        A.   Yes, I was.

    4        Q.   You probably heard some discussion about whether

     5   or not there might be some constraints in the northern

     6   part of this map right here on the Western system.

    7             Do you remember that discussion?

     8       A.   Yes.

     9       Q.   And there was discussion about, you know, what,

    10   if anything, could be done about that.          Assuming it was

    11   feasible to strengthen that system up there, would the

    12   Sundance project still have benefit and meet some needs

    13   for ED-2?

    14       A.   The Sundance line between Sundance and - -

    15       Q.   The line between Sundance and Pinal South.

    16       A.   Yes, it would.

    17       Q.   And there was also some discussion this morning

    18   about building this line - - now, maybe we should go back
    19   to the map, it might be easier - - about perhaps building

    20   this 230 line on a quarter section in this particular area

    21   in between the preferred route on Curry and the half

    22   section route.   Do you remember that discussion?

    23       A.   Yes, I do.

    24       Q.   And ED-2, of course, is thinking about

0   25   underbuilding on this 230 line; is that correct?


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         A.      Yes.

         Q.      And do you have any opinion about the use of a

     quarter section for this project between         --   that quarter
     section east of Curry Road?

 5       A.      Well, my experience with working with developers

 6   to this point is they do not like lines that are not built

 7   on section lines.      They sometimes tolerate mid-section

 8   lines, but they don't even particularly like that, but

 9   they have a way of avoiding it.

10               So we also deal with an issue there is if that
11   area was planned for residential development, let's say,

12   on a quarter section, location for a line, you may have a

13   big severance issue there.        What are you going to do with

14   that quarter section that's left between the line and the

15   section line road?      That's always a concern.

16       Q.      Could you explain what a severance is, what that

17   means?

18       A.      Well, severance is basically if you have cut off

19   a piece of the land from the landowner that they cannot

20   fully utilize as a result of what you're doing, then

21   you're frequently required to buy or pay them for the fact

22   that they can't utilize that piece of land the way they

23   had wanted to.

24       Q.      So if there was a severance in this case, it

25   would cost ED-2 and its ratepayers more money to build


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 1   this line?

 2       A.      Yes.
 3       Q.      I ' m sorry.   Go ahead with your testimony, if you

 4   had any more to add.

 5       A.      I guess the thing that I wanted to do - -        nd
 6   maybe, Tyler, if you could pull up that other slide that

 7   we were looking at.

 8               I think there's been a lot of focus paid to the
 9   fact that Western's two lines between ED-2 substation and

10   going north a ways past Signal substation - -

11               By the way, just so you kind of get an idea, our
12   office is right there.       So, you know, we're intimately

13   familiar with this area.

14               The Western lines, I don't know when they were

15   built, but sometime in the        OS, I believe.      But the lines

16   come up section lines.       They go up a quarter section line

17   on this map.

18               But if you look further north, there's Signal
19   substation.     We've blown up the ED-2 area map here a

20   little bit and you can see Signal sub right there.

21               But as you go north of there, the lines split.
22   One of them goes up a quarter section line, and another

23   one goes up a half section line, and further up i t ' s on a

24   section line.      And when you get past   --   that's Highway 87
25   up there.    When you get past there, it just wanders all



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 1   over the place.

 2            So I don't think that you should be focusing on
 3   this quarter section as a stand-alone piece that was

 4   planned and intended that way.     I suspect the fact that it

 5   was a quarter section had more to do with the landowner at

 6   the time and how those fields may have been set up for

 7   irrigation.    There may have already been a farm road that

 8   matches an irrigation field located there at that time and

 9   they thought that's a good place to put it.

10            So the fact that there's a quarter section offset

11   there I don't think should be read as that was a planned

12   location based on visibility from the road or any other

13   purpose than convenience.

14       Q.   Mr. Martin, you mentioned in that discussion

15   Signal Peak.    Is it Signal Peak substation?

16      A.    Yes, Signal substation.

17       Q.   Can we go back to RS-2 for a second?

18            There was a question yesterday about rather than

19   build the Sundance line from Sundance to Pinal South, just

20   building it to Signal because that's a closer substation.

21   I don't know if you heard that question yesterday.

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Is Signal an ED-2 substation?

24       A.   Yes, it is.

25       Q.   Do you have any thoughts or opinions on the


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     notion of building a line from Sundance to Signal?

         A.     Well, I guess that if this was considered as in

     lieu of the proposed project, this would not be           --   meet

     the needs.

                Building a 2 3 0 k V line from Sundance to Signal,

     well, Signal is 115kV, so you would have to build the 1 1 5

     to 2 3 0 switchyard there to accommodate the voltage change.

     And you're also limited by the fact that those 1 1 5 lines

     are fairly low capacity.

10              So in order to get any benefit out of it, you
11   would have to rebuild those lines up to probably 2 3 0 k V ,

12   and then you would also have to build interconnection from

13   those lines over to Pinal South.

14              And then you would also have to continue on
15   because the rest of that line as it goes south from Pinal

16   South, as you can see, is still 1 1 5 k V .     And so unless you

17   convert all of those other substations to 2 3 0 k V as part of

18   that project, then you have - - y o u ' r e creating just a lot

19   more transformations between 1 1 5 k V at the substation

20   level, and 2 3 0 k V at the transmission line that's going

21   past it.    That would be very expensive.

22       Q.     And Mr. Martin, is it fair to say that this Pinal

23   South substation that was sited by the Committee and the

24   Commission is really seen as the major substation in this

25   particular service area?


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 1       A.    This is going to be a very large station.            I

 2   suspect the Siting Committee is going to be dealing with a

 3   lot of lines going in and out of this substation over the

 4   years.

 5             MR. CAMPBELL:    Thank you.    I don't have any more

 6   questions for Mr. Martin.

 7             CHMN. BOUCEK:    Thank you, Mr. Campbell.

 8             Any other questions by Members of the Committee?

 9             Ms. Rich.

10             MEMBER RICH:    Mr. Martin, so what you're saying

11   is that this 1,320 feet that would be created would create
12   a severance.   And can you tell us about your experience

13   and maybe in your history you condemned a right-of-way and

14   then were required to pay a severance or        --   because

15   1,320 feet seems like a fairly large distance to

16   constitute a severance.

17             THE WITNESS:    I think you have to look at the

18   individual land use that was being considered for that.

19   It may be a big issue if a person has got - - is intending
20   to build subdivisions, residential subdivisions there.             If

21   they carved out a piece that might be commercial, maybe it

22   isn't that large of a deal because you would have a

23   separation between the commercial and the residential

24   pieces.

25             I do know this issue came up     --   and we're part of


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 1   the Palo Verde/Southeast Valley project, and this was an

 2   issue that was of concern to us when the original siting

 3   for that line came up.    Now, I was not involved in the

 4   individual negotiations for land, but severance was a

 5   concern, and I think still remains a concern for when they

 6   actually do get the right-of-way for that line.

 7            Now, we've discussed our 69kV line, because we're

 8   building from Sundance   --   we're coming down this way and

 9   coming across, and then coming down to here.

10            And we have discussed with some landowners the

11   concern - - we're trying to locate our line so that it is

12   basically far enough out that it will accommodate the new,

13   wider roads that the County or the City is planning.

14            And some farmers are okay with that, and others

15   are concerned that that's going to leave them a piece of

16   land that they can't really use because you're building

17   out further to accommodate a future road width than is

18   currently the case, and they don't know when that's going

19   to happen.   So they are concerned about severance,

20   although that's obviously a much smaller scale.

21            MEMBER RICH:    But Mr. Martin, is it safe to say

22   that you haven't looked at this specific case to determine

23   whether or not it would constitute a severance as

24   Mr. Smith is suggesting?

25            THE WITNESS:    No, I could not testify that there


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 1   is or is not a severance.       I do know that that's an issue

 2   with developers though.

                 MEMBER RICH:    Okay.   Thank you.

                 CHMN. BOUCEK:   Mr. Smith.

 5               MEMBER SMITH:    Mr. Martin, I was going to wait,

     because I ' m sure Mr. Rich is going to have some comments

 7   relative to his client's property, but if you have this

 8   1,300 feet of right-of-way setback, you take out 200 feet

9    for right-of-way, there's many examples in the Valley that

10   this has happened.      And probably one of the better ones,

11   and I think i t ' s a Western line that goes through Mesa

12   north of Brown Road on the quarter section - - I think it's
13   a Western    --   and they're double towers.

14               There's plenty of room between the towers and

15   Brown Road.       There's some of the really nicer

16   developments.       They actually put streets on both sides of

17   the rights-of-way and the houses are facing into the

18   right-of-way under the transmission lines.

19               Any creative land planner knows how to work with

20   this type of a situation to the point where - - and I

21   think, likewise, i t ' s some of the things that

22   Mr. Robertson might be bringing out relative to

23   recreational uses.       He did bring out the three points that

24   we really are supposed to evaluate, the potential of

25   recreational activities.


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 1              These lines really connect uses within a

2    master-planned area, and I think most of the land in the

     proposed rights-of-way are larger landholdings where

     there's a lot of flexibility that the planning can be

 5   incorporated into the transmission lines.

 6              But it's kind of interesting that Scottsdale has

 7   spent a little over a million dollars a mile to take the

 8   transmission line - - I mean, the power lines off of
9    Scottsdale Road.      Paradise Valley spent the same amount on

10   Lincoln to take them off of the arterials.      There must be

11   a reason why they've spent that money after the fact, and

12   it's - - the sensitivity aspect goes back to one of my real

13   concerns.      If the power lines are not sensitive at the

14   early stages, they certainly are later on that

15   municipalities will spend that kind of money to relocate

16   transmission lines.

17              But anyway, I just think if there is creative

18   planning done, there would be no room for severance.

19   There's plenty of room for commercial, for multifamily or

20   residential developments in that kind of space.

21              THE WITNESS:   Mr. Smith, I guess, you know, I

22   respectfully disagree.     We haven't encountered anyone to

23   date on the development side of this - - not the city side

24   of it, because I can't speak for Casa Grande or Coolidge

25   on this   --   but the developers like power lines on the


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 1   major arterials or anything that's on a road.               Why?

 2   Because the frontage of those roads is something they

 3   can't use anyway.      They have setback requirements.              They

 4   have other restricted uses like retention basins.                  And

 5   those fit nicely if you have a power line in there.

 6              Putting that power line further in, a quarter

 7   section or, you know, whatever distance, may limit their

 8   ability to get the maximum amount of use out of that land.

 9   And they are all concerned about how many lots they can

10   squeeze out of a piece of land for residential it seems,

11   because we battle them all of the time to get enough space

12   on the frontage to put our lines.

13              MEMBER SMITH:     Thank you.    I understand your

14   disagreement.     That's fine.   Thank you, sir.

15              MEMBER RASMUSSEN:     If I may just add a comment to

16   that.    I think it's the difference between maybe the

17   developers' point of view initially in terms of a

18   basically rural area such as we're talking about now, and

19   a more mature situation that's sort of in the public

20   domain, which is what Mr. Smith was citing.              So I think

21   that's where the difference is, to be honest with you.

22              THE WITNESS:    Certainly.     And there's nothing to

23   say that in the future that if someone doesn't like

24   looking at this line driving down the road and thinks

25   there's a better place for it.


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 1                MEMBER RASMUSSEN:      Exactly.

 2                THE WITNESS:     But again, it will take more

 3   space   --

 4                MEMBER RASMUSSEN:      Yes.

 5                T H E WITNESS:   --   and share right-of-way.    And we

 6   have less resistance from landowners on section lines than

 7   we do anyplace else.

 8                MEMBER RASMUSSEN:       I agree with that.

 9                CHMN. BOUCEK:    Mr. Eberhart.

10

11                                 EXAMINATION

12

13       Q.       (BY MEMBER EBERHART)      a Couple of quick

14   questions.      You spoke about the 69kV underbuild.         If the

15   north/south line from Sundance were built on Curry, that's

16   where you already have a planned 69kV line in your future

17   plans, so an underbuild would be saving you money?

18      A.        Exactly.

19       Q.       If the line were on the half section line, would
20   you still be interested in doing the 69kV underbuild, or

21   if it were on the quarter section line?

22      A.        Yes.   I think it would be a little more

23   problematic because we would have to exit that quarter

24   section line for a substation, unless we can bury a

25   substation inside the boundaries of the section.             But


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 1   again, it could be a compatible use, though.

 2       Q.     Okay.    Now, on the Curry Road alignment, the

 3   preferred alignment north/south, I think the County has

 4   said that they would like to have 110 feet of

 5   right-of-way, 55 feet each side of the centerline.           I

 6   don't know if there was any kind of time frame in which

 7   they would acquire that.

 8              Have they given any indication to the Applicant

 9   or to you on when the County would pull the trigger on

10   that?

11       A.     I ' m sorry.   On which piece?

12       Q.     Along Curry Road, the County has indicated that

13   in the f ture they would like to have 55 feet of

14   right-of-way each side of centerline.

15       A.     What I can say is that the County - - because

16   w e ' v e seen this on 11 Mile Corner Road.     They don't do

17   anything until a developer submits a planned area

18   development or some kind of a plat.         Then they make a

19   condition of their approval that the developer grant them

20   additional right-of-way, and that's when they do it.

21       Q.     And I assume right now there's only probably

22   33 feet - -

23       A.     Right.

24       Q.     - - of right-of-way along Curry?      So if the

25   preferred alignment was built, the APS line would go


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 1   outside the future 55-foot right-of-way?

 2      A.      I would anticipate that.

 3       Q.     So there would be a 22-foot no man's land which

 4   APS would have to pay severance on.       Do you agree with

 5   that?

 6      A.      It could be.   But 20 feet is different than a

7    1,000 feet.

 8       Q.     Well, 22 feet times six miles.

9       A.      Uh-huh.   It could be.

10              One of the things - - and I think this is worth

11   noting, too, because we just experienced this recently.

12   Some of the landowners when you approach them, and

13   particularly the landowners that bought the land or own

14   the land for subsequent development, if the land - - if the

15   lines are put outside the existing right-of-way as it

16   stands, the 33 feet, and if they subsequently develop and

17   it extends to 55 feet from the centerline, then the

18   developer knows that he's going to have to pay the cost of

19   moving, if that were the case.

20              We have recently explained this to some of the

21   landowners in siting some 69kV line, and they have agreed

22   at the outset to give us that distance because it saves - -

23   makes their land, they see, more valuable by not having

24   this conditional relocation that might be tied to the land

25   if the developer buys and develops it, and then has to


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     1   move our line because the road is subsequently widened.

     2   So sometimes they'll let you do that without any

     3   additional cost.

     4         9.      And that would be a good thing.

     5                 I seem to recall one of the slides, though, that

     6   along Curry, on the east side of Curry there's not a lot

     7   of planned development right now.

     8                 And so if APS came in, what you were speaking of,

     9   it really wouldn't take place because of that four or five

    10   miles.       I don't know how far it is, but there's only, I

    11   think, one development, one mile of anticipated

    12   development along Curry.

    13                 I don't have the slide number in front of me,

    14   but   --   maybe they could pull up that slide.

    15                 MR. ACKEN:   RS-46, I think.       47.

    16         Q.      (BY MEMBER EBERHART)     So on the east side of

    17   Curry it looks like there's one mile of planned

    18   development.       So there would be two miles where there's no

    19   development planned currently where they probably would

    20   have to pay severance?

    21         A.      They may.

    22                 MEMBER EBERHART:      Thank you.

    23                 CHMN. BOUCEK:    Any other questions?

    24                 MR. ROBERTSON:     Chairman Boucek, excuse me.       If


a   25   it's possible, I would like to ask one or two as a


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1    follow-up on one that Mr. Campbell asked of the witness.

2             CHMN. BOUCEK:    You can go ahead.

 3            MR. ROBERTSON:    Thank you.     I appreciate that.

 4            Tyler, may I ask you to pull up Slides LS-10 and

 5   RS-3 , please.

 6

 7                     FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION

 8

 9       Q.    (BY MR. ROBERTSON)   Mr. Martin, when Mr. Campbell

10   was asking you about the various entities that are listed

11   on Slide RS-3, did you understand his question to be in

12   the context of the CATS-HV study group that's referred on

13   Slide LS-lo?

14       A.   Yes, I did.

15       Q.   Okay.   Do you recall who from Pinal County

16   participated in that study group?

17       A.   I know specifically Ken Buchanan was there for

18   several meetings.

19       Q.   Okay.   Now, Slide LS-10 references the year 2006.

20   Is that when that CATS-HV study occurred?

21       A.   Well, the CATS-HV study started before then, and

22   it's kind of an evolutionary thing.       It's updated

23   periodically.    So there's a report coming out based on, I

24   think, a 2008 year.    And then part of the study was

25   intended to do a saturation which was not tied to a year


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 1   per se.    I t ' s tied to when you reach a certain level of

 2   population.

 3       Q.     Would it be accurate to say that at the time

 4   those studies were going on the study participants did not

 5   have in front of them the preferred route and the

 6   alternate route that were selected by APS on November 2 1 ,

 7   2007,   which are the subject of this case?

 8       A.     Yes.   I think it's important to note the CATS

 9   Committee looked at the need for lines but not the siting

10   of those lines.

11              MR. ROBERTSON:        Thank you very much.

12              And thank you, Chairman Boucek.

13              CHMN. BOUCEK:     You're welcome.

14              Any other questions from members of the

15   Committee?

16              (No response. )

17              CHMN. BOUCEK:     I would like to - - all right.

18   Thank you very much.      Oh.

19              MR. CAMPBELL:     I ' m sorry.   I do have one

20   follow-up just to make sure that point is clear.

21

22                       FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION

23

24       Q.     (BY MR. CAMPBELL)       When you say they looked at

25   lines, not the siting of the line, they look at connecting


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 1   different points of electrical connection; right?

 2       A.    That's what I meant.

 3       Q.    What they don't look at is geographically which

 4   road or half section i t ' s on; right?

 5       A.    Right.

 6       Q.      So they looked at connecting Sundance to Pinal

 7   South?

 8       A.    Yes, not the particular route to get there.

 9             MR. CAMPBELL:    I just wanted to clarify that.

10   Thanks.

11             CHMN. BOUCEK:   Mr. Wong.

12

13                             EXAMINATION

14

15       Q.      (BY MEMBER WONG)   Mr. Martin, I was just thinking

16   about your comment that you said that the projected annual

17   growth is about 7 or 8 percent; is that correct?

18       A.    I think it's the growth rate that was projected

19   per year.

20       Q.    Per year, 7 to 8 percent per year in this service

21   territory, your area?

22       A.      In the general area.

23       Q.    And then this Sundance is a peaking plant that's

24   not generating continuously; is that correct?

25       A.    Yes.


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 1       Q.      So where else would you get that power to meet

 2   your 7 to 8 percent growth in addition to Sundance which

 3   is only a peaking plant?

 4       A.      New plants are going to be needed, and I dare say

 5   that Pinal County is going to be a location for several of

 6   those new plants.

 7               In the short time frame, the only kind of plant

 8   to build for base load - - you know, the solar and wind is

 9   fine, but generally they're not good for base load - - is

10   going to be gas-fired combined cycle plants.           That's about

11   the only thing that could be built in a time frame that is

12   going to be needed if base load is needed.

13               Now, I don't know, you would have to ask APS how

14   adequate their base-load resources are.           It may be that

15   they don't need any base load for some time to come.                 I

16   look at ours because we purchase all of our power.              We

17   don't generate any.       So our base-load resource, if you
18   will, is limited by the duration of whatever the contract

19   happens to be.      And when that contract expires, then we're

20   having to replace it.

21               S o we look at generation for at least some of our

22   load to be a better option than buying all of it from the

23   purchased power market.

24       Q.      And APS is one of your major suppliers, but not

25   the exclusive supplier?


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     1       A.        No, APS is not one of our major suppliers.      But

    2    we do buy on the spot market, and some of the places that

     3   we buy   --    and this is one of the reasons why this whole

    4    thing is necessary for us.       When we buy at Pinnacle Peak

     5   and Liberty, those are places that we can contractually

     6   buy power.       And so we can only deal with those

    7    counterparts that can deliver power at those locations.

    8                  And this is separate than where the electrons

    9    flow.    This is contractually where you have the right to

    10   say, I want you to deliver power there, and I'll take it

    11   from there to my substations.

    12                 And Liberty and Pinnacle Peak have a very small

    13   number of players that can deliver at those locations, and

    14   that's why it's important for us to be able to get to Palo

    15   Verde, and, therefore, our participation in the Palo Verde

    16   line and then the connection between the Pinal South and

    17   Sundance.

    18       Q.        So you draw the Palo Verde power?

    19       A.        Right.

    20       Q.        And then you're anticipating perhaps, if APS

    21   builds additional power plants, that that may interconnect

    22   with this proposed line?

    23       A.        It could very well if they're generating capacity

    24   that's built at Sundance.        There's land, there's gas, you

0   25   know, water is a question, but that would certainly be a


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 1   source of power for us and for anybody else in the area.

 2       Q.      So this proposed line is really a projected

 3   backup.     You mentioned reliability immediately if Western

 4   fails, for whatever reason, but really it's there as a

     backup for future energy transmission?

         A.      Well, I wouldn't even call it backup.     I would

     call it a necessary element.        Particularly if you're

 8   building more generation, there's no way you can avoid not

 9   building additional lines out of Sundance.

10       Q.     But because it's not - - because this currently

11   proposed line is not meeting your 7 to 8 percent.         It may

12   help meet your 7 to 8 percent in the future if there's

13   additional power plants in Sundance, for example?

14       A.     Well, even if there isn't, we'll need that link.

15   As I mentioned before     --   if you pull up that previous map.

16              There we go.    Sundance and Pinal South, those are

17   two large - - we call them receiving stations.       I mean,

18   bulk power delivery can get there.       And as we grow, we

19   anticipate that those two sites will meet the needs of the

20   District as - - now, separate Sundance the power - - the
21   generating station from Sundance the switchyard.

22              When I ' m talking about Sundance, I ' m talking

23   about Sundance the switchyard and our ability to bring

24   power over those three Western 230kV lines into that

25   place, and we can take it from there to 69kV and



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 1   distribute it out from the system.

 2              We can also move that power to Pinal South if we

 3   need more power at Pinal South, because we'll have a

 4   similar 230 to 69kV system built eventually at Pinal

 5   South.

 6              So those three lines will be a source of major

 7   power imports, if you will, for the District into the

 8   future.    Likewise, at Pinal South, the 500kV line from

 9   Palo Verde to Pinal South, we can even purchase power from

10   the Southeast Valley from that direction, perhaps, if we

11   have to.

12              There's another line that is being planned - -

13   it's in Tucson's 10-year plan - - from Pinal South down to

14   Tortolita, and so that will connect us up down to the

15   Tucson direction.     So those two sites are major sources to

16   bring power into the district.

17       Q.     So the proposed line is to help you get the power

18   where you need it where the growth is - -

19       A.     Exactly.

20       Q.     - - delivering the energy to the growth?

21       A.     It can allow us to move power either - - if we

22   need it because of limitations, we can move power from

23   Pinal South to Sundance, or, conversely, we can move power

24   from Sundance to Pinal South.     It helps balance the

25   system.


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 1              MEMBER WONG:     Thank you, Mr. Martin.

 2              CHMN. BOUCEK:     Okay.    That's all the questions

 3   from the Committee then.        I would like to thank Mr. Martin

 4   and Mr. McGinnis.      Thank you for participating in this

 5   proceeding.

 6              MR. McGINNIS:    Thank you for the opportunity.

 7              CHMN. BOUCEK:    At this time, then, I think we

 8   will proceed to Mr. Rich.        Did you have some?

 9              MR. RICH:   Chairman, if I can, I discussed this

10   with Mr. Robertson earlier, and Mr. Roberts is here now,

11   and we would prefer, if no one has any objection, to put

12   Mr. Roberts on.

13              CHMN. BOUCEK:     If that's fine with the other

14   parties.     Is that okay with you, Mr. Robertson?

15              MR. ROBERTSON:      Yes.   We have no objection.

16              CHMN. BOUCEK:       That's fine.     We can go ahead and

17   proceed with your witness.

18              MR. RICH:   Does anyone have a laser pointer that

19   I can use?

20              CHMN. BOUCEK:    Oh, excuse me, Mr. Rich, could you

21   have your client sit at the table over there for the court

22   reporter so that she will be able to watch him.

23              MR. RICH:   Sure.

24

25



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 1                               JACOB ROBERTS,

 2   called as a witness on behalf of Lonesome Valley Farms

 3   Limited Partnership, having been first duly sworn by the

 4   Certified Reporter to speak the truth and nothing but the

 5   truth, was examined and testified as follows:

 6

 7                            DIRECT EXAMINATION

 8

 9          Q.   (BY MR. RICH)    Mr. Roberts, thank you so much for

10   joining us.     Can you please state for the record your

11   name.

12      A.       Jacob Roberts.

13          Q.   And also, what is your relationship to Lonesome

14   Valley Farms Limited Partnership?

15      A.       My mother owns the property, and I ' m here to

16   represent her.

17          Q.   I've been asked to ask you to speak up a little

18   bit.     If you could move the microphone a little bit closer

19   to you.     Thank you.

20               I promised you I would try to be brief, so I'll

21   hold up my end of the bargain.        I can't speak for

22   everybody else.

23               Could you please, on the exhibit on the left

24   screen, describe where your property is for us.

25      A.       On the left screen?    Okay.     All of the green.


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 1       Q.     And how many acres is that?

 2       A.     Approximately 1,800 acres.

 3       Q.     What do you do on the property right now?       What

 4   happens out there?

 5       A.     We're farmers.

 6       Q.     And you farm the whole 1,800 acres?

 7       A.     Yes.

 8       Q.     Is this map an accurate depiction of all of your

 9   property right there?

10       A.     Yeah, it looks good.

11       Q.     Talk about the specifics here.       Which alignment

12   do you prefer?

13      A.      If I would have to pick, it would be the

14   preferred alignment.

15       Q.     The one along Curry Road?

16      A.      That's correct.

17       Q.     And which side of Curry Road do you prefer to

18   have the alignment located on?

19      A.      The east side.

20       Q.     We've heard a lot of discussion about potential

21   for placing the power line on either a half section or a

22   quarter section line.

23              Can you talk about the impact that would have on

24   your farming operation?

25      A.     Well, the section line would be much easier to


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 1   farm around.    It's on the edge of the property, which

 2   moving equipment around and aerial spraying, irrigation

 3   would be much easier if it's on the edge of the property

 4   line on the section line versus the mid-section.       The

 5   fields aren't completely square, so the mid-section line

 6   you wouldn't - - you know, the fields, it wouldn't fit

 7   right.    You know, there's not an exact straight road like

 8   a section line road would be.

 9       Q.     And would it impact your irrigation of the

10   property - -

11       A.     On the mid-section?

12       Q.     - - if it were on the mid-section of the quarter

13   section line?

14       A.     Not really.   I mean, you would still be able to

15   irrigate and everything.     Just as far as, really, it would

16   be more of an impact with moving equipment around would be

17   a little more difficult.

18       Q.     Do you think other farmers in the area would

19   share your opinion as to the difficulty of farming with a

20   transmission line along the mid-section or quarter section

21   line?

22       A.     Yeah, I would think so, but, you know, I can't

23   state for anybody else.     But from my experience, the

24   section line is more practical to farm around.

25       Q.     And is it true that you plan to develop this


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     1   property at some point in the future for residential?

     2       A.     I ' m sure at one point in time.

     3       Q.     What is your position with regard to where the

     4   power line goes as it gets south of the mid-section line

     5   between Florence Boulevard and Earley Road?

     6              And let me point out where I ' m talking about for

     7   the Committee.     Once it gets south of this line here,

     8   which is the east/west mid-section line between Florence

     9   Boulevard and Earley Road.

    10       A.     I can't really comment on that property.       I ' m not

    11   impacted by it, so it wouldn't affect me.

    12       Q.     Do you care where it goes once it gets in that

    13   area?

    14      A.      No.

    15       Q.     Can you talk a little bit about - - or do you have

    16   any residences or other things on the property that would

    17   be impacted by any of these alignments?

    18      A.      Yeah.   On the mid-section line and Highway 287,

    19   we have a house there on the corner.       It would be the
I
    20   northeast corner there.

    21       Q.     Can you tell me about that house?

    22       A.     It's been in our family for, shoot, I would say

    23   60, 70 years.      It was built in the early 20's.     And about

    24   four or five years ago, we did a complete overall

    25   renovation of the house.


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     1       Q.   And would that house be impacted by the

     2   alternative alignment?

     3       A.   Yeah.   It would certainly be pretty close, yeah.

     4            MR. RICH:   I have no further questions right now.

     5   Thank you.

     6            CHMN. BOUCEK:    Okay.   Mr. Robertson, do you have

     7   questions for this witness?

     8            MR. ROBERTSON:   Yes, Chairman Boucek.      Thank you.

     9

    10                        CROSS-EXAMINATION

    11

    12       Q.   (BY MR. ROBERTSON)    Good afternoon, Mr. Roberts.

    13   My name is Larry Robertson, and I represent Pinal County.

    14       A.   Yes.

    15            MR. ROBERTSON:    Tyler, could I ask you to pull up

    16   Slide RS-53.

    17            And Mr. Roberts, the reason I ' m asking him to do

    18   that is I think it might make it a little easier f o r you

    19   to have something to look at for the context of some of my

    20   questions.

    21            I was just going to ask you i f you could put that
    22   on the right screen, which is where I understood it was.

    23   It will make closer to Mr. Roberts.

    24            Chairman Boucek, if it's all right, I ' m going to


e   25   give Mr. Roberts a copy of APS Exhibit 2 so he has a


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     picture of RS-53 right in front of him.          He may not be

     able to see it with the requisite detail.

                 CHMN. BOUCEK:    I was just going to see if the

 4   Applicant    --

 5               MR. ROBERTSON:    Or if APS has one, either way.

 6   It's for the convenience of the witness.

 7               CHMN. BOUCEK:    Sure.   Certainly.

 8               MR. ACKEN:   Mr. Robertson, I believe that's the

 9   same map that's on the placemat.        It might be even a

10   better one for him, if you prefer.        H e ' s got that one as

11   well.

12               MR. ROBERTSON:   Actually, Mr. Acken, it's not.

13               MR. CAMPBELL:    The other side.

14               MR. ROBERTSON:    I stand corrected.    When I turn

15   it around, it's okay.

16       Q.      (BY MR. ROBERTSON)   You have got that in front of

17   you, Mr. Roberts?

18      A.       Yes, sir.

19       Q.      Mr. Rich asked you as between the APS preferred

20   route and the alternate which you preferred.          And if I

21   understood your answer correctly, you said if you had to

22   choose between the two, it would be the preferred route;

23   is that correct?

24      A.       Yes.

25       Q.     Would you just as soon, if you had your


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 1   preferences completely, not have either route going

 2   through your property?

 3       A.   Oh, of course.

 4       Q.   Okay.   Now, directing your attention to the

 5   picture that is shown on RS-53, or it's Figure A-1 on the

 6   placemat that's been provided by APS, I would like you to

 7   take a minute to orient yourself so you can see where your

 8   property is in relation to that particular map.

 9            And let me know when you're ready.       I have a

10   series of questions I would like to ask you.

11       A.   Okay.

12       Q.   Take a look at the    --   if YOU can see up on the

13   scr en, that's fine.   But otherwi e ,     he map right in

14   front of you.

15            Has Mr. Rich described to you what Pinal County

16   is proposing in this proceeding as the hybrid routed?

17       A.   The what route?

18       Q.   The hybrid, h-y-b-r-i-d.       And if not, I would be

19   happy to describe that to you, because I ' m going to ask

20   you a question or two about it.

21       A.   No.
22       Q.   Okay.   Take a look at Figure A-1 or Slide RS-53.

23   And I would like you to visualize the preferred route as

24   it comes out of Sundance and goes west to Curry Road, and

25   then where it continues south down Curry Road to the point


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 1   of the mid-section line between Florence Boulevard and
 2   Earley Road on Curry Road.

 3              D o you see that?

 4       A.     Earley Road and Curry?

 5       Q.     Yeah.     It's the mid-section point between Earley

 6   and Curry.       You see where the preferred route then begins

 7   to turn in a west to east direction?

 8       A.     Yes.

 9       Q.     Okay.    Now, take a look at Figure A-1 in front of

10   you, and you see those white dashes extending down Curry

11   Road.    There are two white dashes to where they intersect

12   with the blue diagonal area.       It comes up as sort of an

13   angle to meet the white dashes.

14      A.      Okay.

15       Q.     All right.     If you visualize the line being

16   extended down those two dashes, and then at the point of

17   that angle moving over towards Earley Road on the north

18   side of the Casa Grande canal to where it intersects with

19   APS's alternate route on Earley Road and then continuing

20   over to 11 Mile Corner, that is the hybrid route that

21   Pinal County has proposed.

22              Would you have any objection to that?

23      A.      No.

24       Q.     Okay.    Now, I ' m going to give you the same point

25   of reference and ask you to look again where the preferred


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     route on Curry Road stops at the half section point

     between Florence Boulevard and Earley Road.        And I ' m going

     to ask you to extend that slightly further down towards

     Earley Road, perhaps half that distance, maybe between the

     two white dashes, and extend the line at that point in a

     west to east direction across to 11 Mile Corner.         So it
 7   would be between the half section line between Florence

8    Boulevard and Earley Road.

9             Would you have any objection with a route that

10   followed that alignment?

11      A.    No.

12       Q.   You, in response to another line of questions

13   from Mr. Rich, indicated that at some future point you

14   could see your land possibly being subject for

15   development; is that correct?

16      A.    Correct.   Some day.

17       Q.   Have you actually prepared any proposed

18   subdivision plans at this point in time?

19       A.   There's been discussion, but no plans.

20       Q.   Have you submitted anything to Pinal County?

21      A.    No.

22       Q.   Have you had a plat approved by Pinal County?

23       A.   No.
24       Q.   And you have no planned area development status

25   for your acreage; is that correct?


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 1       A.   Correct.

 2       Q.   One last area that was, I believe, one of the

 3   first Mr. Rich addressed.      Did I understand you correctly

 4   to say that if the line were placed on a half section line

 5   or a quarter section, you would still be able to farm your

 6   acreage with perhaps a little bit of difficulty?

 7       A.   Yeah, you would be able to still farm it.

 8            MR. ROBERTSON:    Mr. Roberts, that's all I have.

 9   Thank you.

10            CHMN. BOUCEK:    Mr. Hains, do you have any

11   questions?

12            MR. HAINS:   Staff has no questions, thank you.

13            CHMN. BOUCEK:    Mr. Campbell.

14            MR. CAMPBELL:    No questions, thank you.

15            CHMN. BOUCEK:    Members of the Committee?

16            Mr. Smith.

17            MEMBER SMITH:    Thank you.

18

19                             EXAMINATION

20

21       Q.   (BY MEMBER SMITH)     Mr. Roberts, I ' m totally

22   sensitive to your issues relative to farming, and I know

23   that it is an inconvenience.     And I think you are probably

24   extremely fortunate to have a large land holding in this

25   particular area.


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 1              And I was just wondering, you did indicate that

 2   you anticipate development in the future.        And with this

 3   type of acreage, it probably would be subject to an

 4   overall master plan, wouldn't it?

 5       A.     Yes.

 6       Q.     I mean, you would hope for it to be that way?

 7       A.     We would hope.

 8       Q.     And with this kind of acreage, you have lots of

 9   latitude and flexibility to delineate any kind of land

10   uses, and the same with circulation on it.

11              These transmission lines, the poles are usually

12   placed about 500 feet apart, which really means that

13   you're not going to have that many poles.       And a

14   right-of-way really is not a fence, or i t ' s not a - - YOU
15   would have access under them to go ahead and continue the

16   farming.    So really, you're talking about maybe two or

17   three transmission poles on your property with either of

18   the present locations, where there are three if it

19   happened to be on the quarter section.

20              But I just   --   I think if you were to view a

21   number of the planned communities in the Valley - - and we

22   are kind of blessed with a lot of them - - you're going to

23   find that a number of them do have transmission lines

24   penetrating them, and those lines have been turned into

25   open space or useful functions within the plan.


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 1            And I was just going to make you aware that

 2   you're not going to    --    you're able to farm under them, and

 3   I ' m sure you're aware of that.       But in getting around, the

 4   main disadvantage for you as a farmer would be your aerial

 5   spraying is probably    --    I mean, it's probably not a lot

 6   different than if it was on the major section or

 7   mid-section line because you have the same constraints; is

 8   that not correct?

 9       A.   Well, as far as aerial spraying, if it's more on

10   the section line - - I would think it would be a lot easier

11   to crop dust if it was more on the section line than the

12   mid-section.

13            You know, I ' m not a pilot or a crop duster, but

14   just from being able to watch and in getting feedback from

15   the crop dusting company, yeah, they would prefer it on

16   the section line.     I t ' s much easier to maneuver their

17   plane and dust around.

18       Q.   What types of crops do you have?         Is it alfalfa

19   and cotton?

20       A.   Cotton and grain and some alfalfa, yes.

21       Q.   So crop dusting is       --

22       A.   Mainly cotton.

23       Q.   Okay.   So i t ' s a regular part of your operation
24   would be the aerial crop dusting?

25       A.   Yes, sir.


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 1       Q.     Okay.   But none of   --   you have not been

 2   approached as far as doing an overall master plan, then,

 3   for your property; is that correct?

 4       A.     Correct.

 5              MEMBER SMITH: Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

 6              CHMN. BOUCEK:     Any other questions from Committee

 7   members?

 8              Mr. Eberhart.

9               MEMBER EBERHART:    Not a question.      I just wanted

10   to thank the witness for coming today and providing us an

11   actual - - someone that actually lives here and will be

12   impacted by whatever we decide, your opinion and your

13   thoughts.    I really appreciate you coming today.

14              THE WITNESS:    Thank you.

15              CHMN. BOUCEK:     Anybody else?

16               (No response.)

17              CHMN. BOUCEK:     All right.    With that, I would

18   like to echo Mr. Eberhart's words and thank you very much

19   for coming to testify today.

20              THE WITNESS:    Appreciate it.     Thank you.

21              CHMN. BOUCEK:     All right.

22              MR. RICH:   Madam Chairman, actually, if I may

23   move to admit the exhibit on the left screen right now as

24   Exhibit Roberts-1, just as a matter of housekeeping.

25              CHMN. BOUCEK:     Yes, thank you.


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 1                 Is there any objection from any of the parties?

 2                 (No response. )

 3                 CHMN. BOUCEK:      All right.   Thank you.    That is

 4   admi tted .

 5                 (Exhibit No. Roberts-1 was received into

 6   evidence.)

 7                 CHMN. BOUCEK:      I ' m sorry, too, I forgot to ask

 8   you.   Do you have any redirect for your witness?

 9                 MR. RICH:    No, I don't.    Thank you.

10                 MEMBER WONG:      Just a question.

11

12                                   EXAMINATION

13

14       Q.        (BY MEMBER WONG)     Mr. Roberts, I just want to get

15   a viewpoint.         When you first heard about this proposal,

16   what was your reaction?          Your family's reaction?

17       A.        It wasn't good, because two years ago we went

18   through the same thing with the SRP line.             We have taken

19   some of the brunt of that line.           And going through this

20   whole process over again wasn't good.

21       Q.    Were you involved in the SRP line, testify or

22   spoke as an intervenor or any type of participation?

23       A.        Yes.

24       Q.    What was your position in that case?

25       A.    Well, I was a property owner that was impacted


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     1   with the SRP line.

     2       Q.   Did you oppose it?

     3       A.   Yeah.

     4       Q.   Is this something that shouldn't be done, these

     5   transmission lines?      Is it that they're unsightly?     Is it

     6   just they shouldn't be putting these in?

     7       A.   Well, you know, we have to have power.         If it was

     8   my choice, you know, I would bury them.         That would make a

     9   whole lot of sense to me, but I guess it's pretty costly

    10   when it comes to that.

    11       Q.   So the reality is you are resigned to accept the

    12   fact that that's a practical reality, right, that we have

    13   to have power?

    14      A.    Yes.

    15       Q.   Power lines?

    16      A.    Yeah.

    17       Q.   I think that's something that I know I struggle

    18   with, because that no one wants it in their backyard.

    19      A.    No, you don't.      But I also want to turn my lights

    20   on and off, so yeah.

    21       Q.   So we   --   part of our deliberation is trying to

I   22   find a way - - and not only the environmental impact, but

1   23   also how do we have the route that's least intrusive to

    24   property owners.

    25      A.    Correct, yeah.     And that's why I , you know,


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 1   strongly am for the preferred alignment versus the

 2   mid-section alignment.

 3       Q.     Do you feel that there would be a concern about

 4   getting adequate compensation for siting some of these

 5   poles on your property?

 6       A.     Of course, yes.

 7       Q.     Was SRP, did they - - you sold some of your rights

 8   to SRP, you said?

 9       A.     We're still going through the process.         That

10   hasn't been completed yet, that portion.

11       Q.     Has that been frustrating?

12       A.     Of course it's frustrating, yeah.

13       Q.     Is that something that would end up in court, do

14   you think, in litigation on the compensation issue?

15      A.      There's a possibility.

16              MEMBER WONG:    Thank you.

17              And Madam Chair, I bring that up because I think

18   these are all practical issues, who can site a pole on the

19   line.    But similar to a government taking of the property,

20   what is fair and adequate compensation?           These are some of

21   the realities of siting that we can make - - sit here and
22   make the decision, but ultimately the property owner has

23   to go through the follow-through.

24              Thank you.

25              CHMN. BOUCEK:   Thank you.


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 1            Oh, Mr. McGuire.     Go ahead.

 2            MEMBER McGUIRE:    Mr. Roberts, on a crop of

 3   cotton, how many times would you apply something onto it

 4   or treat it by air?

 5            THE WITNESS:     Oh, I would say it depends on what

 6   type of variety of cotton we have, you know.

 7            MEMBER McGUIRE:    As an average.

 8            THE WITNESS:    Two to three times.

 9            MEMBER McGUIRE:    Thank you.

10            MR. RICH:    Chairman, can I follow up on one

11   thing?

12            CHMN. BOUCEK:    Yes, Mr. Rich.

13

14                         REDIRECT EXAMINATION

15

16      Q.    (BY MR. RICH)    Mr. Roberts, I wanted to clarify

17   one issue that Member Wong brought up.

18            When you testified in the SRP case, you weren't

19   against the line per se, were you?      You were just against

20   certain locations of the line?

21      A.    The location, yeah.

22       Q.   And also one other question, I think, sort of

23   along those lines.

24            As someone that lives in the area, are you aware

25   of any of your neighbors or anyone that lives in the


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a    1   Coolidge/Casa Grande area that's in favor of the

     2   alternative alignment that maybe hasn't shown up today?

     3       A.   No.

     4            MR. RICH:   Thank you.     No further questions.

     5            THE WITNESS:    Can I say one more thing about the

     6   alternative alignment?

     7            CHMN. BOUCEK:    Certainly.

     8            THE WITNESS:    We do have a pecan orchard on the

     9   secondary line in this area.     Just for the record that we

    10   have a pecan orchard there.      So having lines through it

    11   wouldn't be a good thing either.

    12            MR. RICH:   Can you, Mr. Roberts, for the record,

    13   just explain where you just poin ed?         Is ,hat the

    14   northeast corner of Storey and - -

    15            THE WITNESS:    Yes, it's    --

    16            MEMBER RICH:    - - and the alternative alignment?

    17            THE WITNESS:    The alternative alignment.        Here

    18   would be the Storey and Tweedy section right there.            This

    19   is Tweedy here, I believe, yes.

    20            MR. RICH:   Okay.     Thank you.

    21            CHMN. BOUCEK:   All right.        Thank you very much,

    22   Mr. Roberts.

    23            THE WITNESS:    Thank you.

    24            MR. CAMPBELL:   Chairman Boucek, while we're in

    25   between witnesses, Mr. McGinnis pointed out to me that the


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 1   exhibits for ED-2 were not really moved.           I ' m not sure

2    that we had copies handed out to everybody.           But since I

 3   have got the microphone here, I would be happy on behalf

 4   of ED-2 to ask if the parties would be willing to submit

 5   those exhibits subject to ED-2 filing 25 copies in the

 6   docket.
7                CHMN. BOUCEK:     Okay.   Have you - - is ED-2   --   did

8    they want to move those exhibits?

 9               MR. CAMPBELL:     Yeah.   I think he had just

10   mentioned it to me on the break, and maybe it's more

11   appropriate that     --   he actually was concerned, since he

12   wasn't a party, he wasn't sure if he could move them or

13   not.

14               CHMN. BOUCEK:     That's what I ' m wondering myself.

15   That's kind a procedural - - this is kind of interesting.

16   He was participating as a witness at our request.

17               Certainly I think that the Committee would be

18   interested in being able to review those as part of the

19   record.     So to that end, I think we would move to admit

20   those into the record so that it can be part of our

21   deliberations.

22               MR. CAMPBELL:     I think procedurally you're

23   probably right.      You should actually probably move them

24   rather than me.

25               CHMN. BOUCEK:     Come to think of it.     We will now


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 1   move    --     and actually, I only saw those up there.       What is

 2   a good way to reference those exhibits that you had?

 3                      MR. McGINNIS:   One is a map of our service area,

 4   and the other is a map of planned future 69kV expansion.

 5   Frankly, that's the reason I didn't move them, because I

 6   didn't think as a non-party we should be moving exhibits.

 7                      CHMN. BOUCEK:   That's a point well-taken.     It's

 8   something that I haven't dealt with before.             But under the

 9   circumstances, since we asked you to participate, it was

10   at our request, the Committee's request, and it is

11   something that I think the Committee would like to have

12   before them as they review the record, and also, I think,

13   the Corporation Commission would also appreciate having as

14   part of the record, I will go ahead and move the exhibit

15   depicting the service area of ED-2, Electrical District 2 ,

16   and also the exhibit that was presented by Electrical

17   District 2 showing the planned 69kV service area.

18                      MEMBER WONG:    Point of order, Madam Chair.     Who

19   is moving those exhibits, or is this the Chair's             --   your

20   accepting them, or what is the procedure?

21                      CHMN. BOUCEK:   This is kind of an unusual

22   procedure in that, I guess, normally a party would move it

23   and I would rule upon it.             So maybe in a sense should I

24   have you - - should we do it as a - - it's not really a

25   parliamentary motion that we're doing here, i t ' s an


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 1   evidentiary ruling.

2              MEMBER WONG:      I think you can just accept it

 3   without objection.

 4             CHMN. BOUCEK:     All right.    We'll accept the

 5   exhibits, then, assuming there are no objections from the

 6   other Committee members or any of the other parties.

 7             (No response. )

 8             (Exhibit Nos. Committee-1 and Committee-2 were

9    received into evidence.)

10             CHMN. BOUCEK:     All right.    Thank you.

11             All right.   Mr. Robertson, are you prepared to

12   put on your case?

13             MR. ROBERTSON:     We are.   Thank you, Chairman

14   Boucek.   Mr. Gonzalez is assisting Mr. Haifley in setting

15   up some easels with some large easel boards at the moment.

16   And we previously discussed with you Mr. Gonzalez making

17   his presentation from the podium, if that continues to be

18   acceptable.   That way, he can see both the screens and

19   what is projected upon them, and the easels, and point to

20   the easels with a highlighter.

21             CHMN. BOUCEK:     That's fine.    Thank you very much.

22             MR. ROBERTSON:     Chairman Boucek, while

23   Mr. Haifley is finishing setting up the easels, I would

24   like the record to reflect that this morning before the

25   beginning of the hearing, we passed out copies of each of


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 1   Pinal County's four exhibits to each of the members of the

 2   Siting Committee, and counsel for each of the parties, and

 3   the court reporter.      And I will be having Mr. Gonzalez

 4   identify those at the first part of his testimony, and

 5   then we will begin to move into additional areas.

 6

 7                            MANNY GONZALEZ,

 8   called as a witness on behalf of Pinal County, having been

 9   first duly sworn by the Certified Reporter to speak the

10   truth and nothing but the truth, was examined and

11   testified as follows:

12

13                           DIRECT EXAMINATIO

14

15       Q.      (BY MR. ROBERTSON)    Would you please state your

16   name.

17       A.      My name is Manny Gonzalez.

18       Q.      Mr. Gonzalez, are you employed by Pinal County?

19       A.      Yes.   I ' m the Assistant County Manager

20   responsible for administrative services.

21       Q.      Would you please describe for the members of the

22   Siting Committee and the parties what responsibilities are

23   included within the term administrative services.

24       A.      Yes, sir, Mr. Robertson.    As Assistant County

25   Manager over administrative services, I ' m responsible for


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c        overseeing the following departments:       Fairgrounds and

         parks, finance, budget and research, human resources,

         information technology, risk management, fleet services,

         facilities, elections, and the visitor center.

             Q.   Mr. Gonzalez, would you summarize your

     b   educational background and your professional experience

     7   leading up to your current position as assistant manager

     8   in Pinal County?

    9       A.    Yes.   I have worked in government for about

    10   27-and-a-half years now.      I have a bachelor's degree in

    11   social work and a master's degree in public administration

    12   from Arizona State University.

    13            Prior to coming to Pinal County, I worked for the

    14   City of Phoenix for 16-and-a-half years.        The last

    15   six-and-a-half I was the housing director.        Prior to that

    16   I worked about a year and a half as a development services

    17   deputy director.     I also spent three-and-a-half years

    18   working in the City Manager's office for Frank Fairbanks,

    19   Cheryl Scully, and a couple of other deputy city managers.

    20            Again, I have worked in administration for 22

    21   years of the 27-and-a-half.      And I also spent two-and-a-

    22   half years working for the City of Chandler during the

    23   time when Chandler    --   from '86 to '88 during the time when

    24   Chandler was going through the big growth spurt.

    25            I worked in the public works department


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 1   responsible for much of the infrastructure that was

 2   installed during that period of time which led to the

 3   development of the regional model that's currently in

 4   Chandler, as well as all of the streets, water, and sewer

 5   lines for the city.

 6              In my years in Phoenix, I did many years of

 7   working in budgeting, not only capital budgeting but

 8   administrative or operating budgets for many of those

 9   years.    And then I spent the last two years working as an

10   assistant county manager with Pinal County.

11       Q.    Mr. Gonzalez, would you describe specifically

12   your responsibilities as they relate to Pinal County

13   Fairgrounds?

14       A.     I oversee the fairgrounds.     Terry Haifley, who is

15   with me   --   and I did want to introduce Terry Haifley.

16   H e ' s the current fairgrounds manager/director.    He's been

17   in this position for 20 years.

18       Q.    Mr. Gonzalez, do you have in front of you what

19   have been marked as exhibits for identification Pinal-1

20   through Pinal-4?

21       A.    Yes, I do.

22       Q.    Would you please briefly describe for the record

23   and for foundation purposes each of those exhibits?

24       A.    Yes.    The first attachment is a summary position

25   of Pinal County and a transmittal letter.       The second - -


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             Q.   And that was as filed with the Arizona

         Corporation Commission - -

             A.   That's correct.

             Q.   --   in this docket?

     5       A.   Yes.

     6            I also included Attachment No. 2 is the

     7   Powerpoint presentation that was handed out.

     8       Q.   Is that the Powerpoint presentation that you will

     9   be presenting today?

    10       A.   Yes, sir.

    11            And then Attachment 3 is on April llth, we

    12   actually got a rezoning of the fairgrounds so that we

    13   could maintain the current activities currently and into

    14   the future.

    15       Q.   Mr. Gonzalez, does Pinal-3 contain various

    16   documents relating to that rezoning and reclassification,

    17   including the resolution adopted by the Pinal County Board

    18   of Supervisors?

    19       A.   Yes, it does.   And basically with PZ-PD-055-06,

I   20   Pinal County requested approval of a planned area

I   21   development overlay district on a 120-acre parcel to

    22   establish development standards and a palate of uses on

    23   the Pinal County Fairgrounds pending and in conjunction

    24   with the board of supervisors.

    25       Q.   In changing the zoning and the classification as


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     it was changed pursuant to the resolution that was

     adopted, did the County go through the rezoning and

     reclassification process that would be required of all

     applicants for rezoning and reclassification?

         A.     That's correct.

         Q.     So it went through Pinal County Planning and

     Zoning and the Pinal County Board of Supervisors; is that

     correct?

         A.     That's correct.

10       Q.     Why, given the fact that the County owns the

11   fairgrounds, did it decide to go through that formal

12   process?

13      A.      Because we wanted to be treated like everybody

14   else that goes through the process.       It was important to

15   the County management to do that.

16       Q.     And was it also to protect the status of the

17   fairgrounds as a recreational property?

18       A.     Yes, it was.

19       Q.     And would you describe Pinal-4 as marked for

20   identification.

21       A.     Pinal-4 is our Pinal County Fairgrounds brochure

22   that was developed that Terry gives out to prospective

23   users of our fairgrounds.

24       Q.     Does that include an example of a listing of

25   annual events that occur at the fairgrounds?


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 1      A.    Yes, it does.

 2       Q.      Okay.   Mr. Gonzalez, let me ask you at this

 3   point, if you could, to summarize Pinal County's position

 4   with regard to the two routes that are the subject of this

 5   proceeding which have been proposed by APS.      And if

 6   there's a particular slide that you would like to refer to

 7   in connection with your description, just ask Tyler to

 8   pull it up.

 9      A.       Tyler, would you please pull up RS-43, please.

10       Q.   And if during the course of your description you

11   could use    --

12      A.    Actually, 43.      Thank you.

13       Q.      - - the laser pointer and let the members of the

14   Committee and the parties follow your description.

15      A.    Yeah.      Let me roughly run through the hybrid

16   route, which starts out of the Sundance substation and

17   goes west to Curry Road, and then follow this alignment

18   down to south of the mid-section between Earley and the

19   287, and then goes down this way here, and over west to

20   the other substation.

21       Q.   Now, let me stop you for just one second.        As we

22   established during my cross-examination of Ms. Pollio

23   earlier today, that hybrid route is the same route as

24   Alternative A shown on Slide RS-43; correct?

25       A.      That's correct.


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 1       Q.    Okay.   Now, does Pinal County have a position

 2   with regard to what has been described during the past few

 3   days in this proceeding as the modified preferred route,

 4   and could you describe the position and that route?

 5       A.    Yeah.   The position of the modified route comes

 6   out of, again, the Sundance substation and goes on the

 7   half section line all of the way down to past the

 8   mid-section line here, and then goes west.       I mean, east.

9    Excuse me.   East to west.

10       Q.    So that's following APS's preferred route out of

11   Sundance to Curry Road, then down Curry Road south of the

12   half section between Florence Highway and Earley Road but

13   north of Earley Road, and then at some point heading from

14   west to east there, but south of the fairgrounds property;

15   is that correct?

16      A.     That's correct.

17       Q.    And would that route be acceptable to Pinal

18   County?

19      A.     Yes, it would.

20       Q.    And, finally, is APS's proposed alternate route

21   acceptable to Pinal County?

22       A.    Yes, it is.

23       Q.    Okay.   Would a modification of APSIS alternate

24   route that moved the west to east southern portion of it

25   somewhat north of Earley Road but south of Pinal County


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 1   Fairgrounds also be acceptable to the County?

 2       A.   Yes, it would.

 3       Q.   Mr. Gonzalez, when did Pinal County first become

 4   aware of the exact location of APS's preferred route?

 5       A.   We had a meeting with APS on November 2 1 ,

 6   Wednesday, the day before Thanksgiving.            That was the

 7   first time we had heard firmly from APS that the preferred

 8   route was along the alignment of SRP.

 9       Q.   That was November 2 1 ,     2007?

10      A.    That's correct.

11       Q.   Had you inquired of APS prior to that time

12   whether their route would be crossing the fairgrounds?

13      A.    Yes, we had.

14       Q.   And what sort of response did you get?

15      A.    They said that they hadn't decided yet what

16   exactly their preferred alignment was going to be.

17       Q.   So they were unable to tell you whether or not

18   they would be crossing the fairgrounds?

19       A.   That's correct.

20       Q.   One last area.        Do you have a copy of APS
21   Exhibit 2 with you there at the podium?

22       A.   Yes, I do.

23       Q.   I want to close one last loose end or

24   housekeeping item.

25            Let me have you turn to Tab 3 in APS Exhibit 2 .


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 1   And if you'll look at the first page, you'll see that APS

 2   is indicating they sent correspondence to various parties

 3   requesting information on their development plans.

 4            Do you see that on the first page?

 5       A.   Yes, I do.

 6       Q.   And do you see the names of Ken Buchanan and Greg

 7   Stanley there for Pinal County?

 8      A.    Yes, I do.

 9       Q.   Now, let's turn back to the second page, and we

10   see a form of a letter from Arcadis, dated December 21,

11   2007, and the contact is Kenda Pollio.

12            So is it your understanding that's the form of

13   letter that APS sent to various entities listed on the

14   first page?

15      A.    That's correct.

16       Q.   Now let's go to the third page of Tab 3 , and we

17   see a letter dated January 4 , 2008, written to Kenda

18   Pollio at Arcadis, signed by Gregory Stanley.

19            Do you see that?

20      A.    Yes, I do.

21       Q.   Now, Mr. Stanley is one of the two individuals

22   from Pinal County indicated on Page 1; is that correct?

23      A.    That's correct.

24       Q.   And this letter was dated January 4, 2008, after

25   the application in this proceeding had been filed; is that


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     1   correct?

     2       A.     Yes.

     3       9.     Now, what is Mr. Stanley's capacity with Pinal

     4   County?

     5       A.     Mr. Stanley's capacity is he's the Public Works

     6   Director and also the County Engineer.          So he's

     7   responsible for all of the roads and right-of-ways for

     8   Pinal County.

     9       Q.     Does he have any responsibility at all of any

    10   nature with regard to the Pinal County Fairgrounds?

    11      A.      No, he does not.

    12       Q.     All right.   Now, let me direct your attention to

    13   the last sentence in the second paragraph of that letter,

    14   which reads as follows:       Quote, otherwise, the application

    15   as presented does not pose a negative impact on Pinal

    16   County, close quote.

    17              In making that statement, is it your testimony

    18   Mr. Stanley was in no way authorized to comment on Pinal
~



    19   County's position with regard to the impact of the

i   20   proposed lines on the fairgrounds?

    21       A.     That's correct.

    22       Q.     Okay.   Would you like to continue with your

    23   Powerpoint presentation at this point?

    24       A.     Yes.

    25              CHMN. BOUCEK:   Mr. Haenichen.


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 1            MEMBER HAENICHEN:     Mr. Robertson, I just wanted

2    to maybe correct   --   or at least ask you if it should be

 3   corrected - - one of the statements that you made early in

 4   your examination of Mr. Gonzalez.

 5            You were asking him would the County accept the

 6   proposed alternate route, and he said yes.         Would they

 7   accept the hybrid route, and he said yes.         And then I

 8   believe you said would he accept the alternate route if

9    the east/west alignment were dropped.        I think you meant

10   the preferred route.

11            MR. ROBERTSON:     Actually, Mr. Haenichen, I

12   thought I had asked him two questions.          One was for the

13   modified preferred route which would drop it down, but not

14   as far as Earley Road, and then take it from west to east.

15   And then I added in the modified alternate route, which

16   would come down to somewhere below the fairgrounds

17   property but further north of Earley Road.         That's where

18   the modification of the alternate would occur.

19            MEMBER HAENICHEN:      I just wanted to be sure there

20   was no confusion.

21            MR. ROBERTSON:      I appreciate you raising the

22   question.   That sort of came up during today's

23   proceedings.   So I have now added not only the modified

24   preferred, but the modified alternate.

25            MEMBER HAENICHEN:      Thank you.


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              MR. ROBERTSON:     Thank you very much.

              THE WITNESS:     Okay.     First of all, I would like

     to welcome all of you, Madam Chairman, Members of the

 4   Committee.   I appreciate you taking time from your

 5   schedules to come visit us here in Pinal County.

 6            I wanted to let you know that we understand the

 7   need for power for Pinal County because of the current

 8   growth and what we expect to come in the next, you know

 9   20, 30 years.

10            So with that, let me give you a little background

11   on Pinal County, because I don't know how familiar you are

12   or not with Pinal County.        So I thought I would take a

13   minute to walk you through just some background.

14            Pinal County is    --   next slide, please,   One more.

15            Pinal County, for those of you who don't know, is

16   roughly about 5,400 square miles.        It's larger than the

17   State of Connecticut.     So we encompass a large area from

18   Casa Grande, where you're currently now on the west side,

19   all the way to Superior, Kearny, Mammoth, Oracle, and all

20   the way down to San Manuel.       And then Eloy, Florence, and

21   everything in between, A.J. and the like.

22            Next.

23            We believe we're in the heart of the sun

24   corridor, the megapolitan which has been referenced many

25   times by many of the growth experts in Phoenix.        We are in


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 1   the middle of, you know, of the megapolitan which

 2   stretches from Prescott, all of the way through Phoenix,

 3   down through Pinal County, down to Tucson, Nogales, and

 4   thereabouts.

 5            Next.

 6            Let me just give you some facts.       In 2007, Pinal

7    County was the first in the U.S. for growth rates.          We

8    have experienced about 11 percent annual growth rate in

9    the last four years.   As you well know, we're sandwiched

10   in between a million people in the Tucson metro area and

11   4 million people up in the Phoenix metro area.         We

12   currently have around 325,000 people.

13            From 1990 through 2000, Pinal County experienced

14   a 54 percent increase in population.       We currently have

15   800,000-plus zoning entitled lots within Pinal County.

16            Pinal County accounted for 31 percent of the

17   Phoenix metro housing starts in 2005, and based on

18   projections we're looking at a 40 percent share for 2020.

19            Next.

20            Here is some projections that we got from our

21   Central Association of Counties.        In 1990, as you can see,

22   we had 116,800 people.   In 2000, we went up to 181.         In

23   2004, we went up to 230, and now we're at currently 325.

24   We're looking at going to a million people by 2015.

25            CHMN. BOUCEK:   I ' m sorry.    Mr. Palmer.


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1             MEMBER PALMER:    Madam Chair, yes.

2             You're familiar with the rule of 72 to calculate

3    how long it takes in years to double a principal based on

4    a given interest rate.    So at 11 percent annually, your
 5   population will double in about six-and-a-half years.

 6   There's a bubble that's reflected on the screen from 2007

 7   to 2015 of a tripling in eight years.

 8            THE WITNESS:    Right.

9             MEMBER PALMER:     So that would presume a rate

10   closer to 14 percent.

11            THE WITNESS:    Right.   And these projections were,

12   again, extracted from our Central Association of

13   Governments based on housing starts and all of that.        I

14   can give you more information, but those projections came

15   from them.

16            MEMBER PALMER:    What you do is take the

17   percentage increase and divide it into 72, and that gives

18   you the number of years it takes to double.

19            So there's a bubble that's happening that's

20   fairly significant from 2007 to 2015.

21            THE WITNESS:     Okay.   Well, I can get that

22   information.   Okay.

23            And again, we're looking at about a million

24   nine - - our projections are by 2050 we're going to be

25   looking at about 1,900,000 people in Pinal County.


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 1             Let me walk you through some         --   the population
 2   that - - from what we've gathered from working with the

 3   state population figures.          This is what the population

 4   concentrations were in 2 0 0 0 .

 5             One of the things I want to point out to you, if

 6   I can, is that our fairgrounds are located in this area.

 7             Next slide.

 8             This is a 2 0 1 0 projection.       And again, the

 9   fairgrounds are located in this area there.

10             Next, 2 0 2 0 ,   and this is the fairgrounds.      As you

11   can see, the red continues to grow in the corridor from

12   1-10 and Interstate 8 .

13             Next.

14             In 2 0 3 0 ,   this is what w e ' r e looking at, the

15   projections are telling us.

16             2040.      And again, the fairgrounds are located

17   right in this vicinity.

18             Next.

19             And then 2 0 5 0 .    Again, this is what we're looking

20   at, the development that's going to - - projected to occur

21   in this sun corridor.

22             Moving on, I added this slide because one of the

23   phenomenons that's happening in Pinal County is because of

24   the price of land and the cost of housing in the East

25   Valley.   Many of the people that have moved into the


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 1   northern part of Pinal County and the Johnson Ranch area

 2   moved        --   not necessarily moved from these areas, but the

 3   reason they moved to Johnson Ranch is because Chandler,

 4   because of the cost of land and housing, is expected to be

 5   built out by 2013, Gilbert by 2017, Mesa by 2010, and then

 6   Queen Creek by 2030.          Again, a lot of the people moving

 7   into northern Pinal County are moving from these areas.

 8                     Next.

 9                     One of the other things that I wanted to cover

10   is, you know, the land uses within Pinal County.             Right

11   now private land is about 25 percent, BLM is 11, the State

12   Trust land is about 35 percent, the Indian communities

13   comprises about 20 percent, and parks and monuments about

14   2.5, and then National Forest about 6.5.

15                     Next.

16                     The changing face of Pinal County.   These are

17   quotes that we gathered from different - - from the

18   Christian Science Monitor:            "Arizona is the new canvas for
19   exurban mega growth."

20                     "Pinal County is the next Orange County of

21   Arizona."           And that's a quote from Rita Maguire that some

22   of you may know.

23                     And then, "The housing and population growth is

24   far greater than the number of jobs coming in to support

25   them.   I1




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 1             And that's an issue that we are dealing with,

 2   w e ' r e looking at dealing with.

 3       A.    Next.   Some of the issues that w e ' r e currently

 4   aware of and have been pointed out by the Valley Forward

 5   Association during their 2004 environmental report is that

 6   a long-standing   --   Pinal County was a long-standing rural

 7   county, but now we are facing some very urban issues.

 8             Pinal County's biggest issue is trying to manage

 9   rampant growth while maintaining the quality of life,

10   which is very important to us.

11             And then, Pinal County has significantly improved

12   in some areas, air and land use, but is below average in

13   transportation and open space/recreation.

14             One of the things that since 2000 Pinal County

15   has been working very, very hard at trying to deal with is

16   the growth that's come into Pinal County.       We actually

17   have a growth management initiative, a 15-point that I

18   wanted to just walk you through real quickly.

19             In 2007, the County did adopt impact fees for the

     first time.   We currently have planning review fees.            We

     recently adopted a trails and open space master plan.            We

22   are looking at updating our comprehensive plan, our

23   specific area plans.

24             Our freeway corridor planning is      --   we're working

25   with many of the communities in Pinal County.          We're also


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 1   looked at small area transportation plans and working with

2    those cities.

 3             We're looking at subdivision standards and zoning

 4   codes.   We're doing some modeling of population and

 5   demographics.    We just updated to GIs.        A lot of our

 6   information is now available through GIs.

 7             We actually also just recently completed a

 8   facilities master plan.    We're looking at all of our needs

 9   not only for staffing, but also for office space, and we

10   recently completed that.

11             We're also looking at the air, water and

12   wastewater issues that now we're facing here in Pinal

13   County, and then we also have a capital improvement plan.

14       Q.    (BY MR. ROBERTSON)   Mr. Gonzalez, before we leave

15   these slides, I notice that on three of the points you

16   have a parenthetical reference that includes fairgrounds

17   expansion funding.    And that's for impact fees, the

18   staffing, organization and facility planning, and for the

19   capital improvement plan.

20             Could you comment on the importance of the Pinal

21   County Fairgrounds within this long-range planning effort?

22       A.    Yes.   As part of the impact fees, there is a fee

23   that in certain improvement - - impact fee areas, we have a

24   fee that we are charging those units of housing in order

25   to build up a fund so that we can have some money to redo


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 1   some things at the fairgrounds, as well as not only

 2   improve the facilities but also expand it.      And the

 3   management, as well as the Board of Supervisors, felt it

 4   was important to add those fees to our impact fee

 5   calculations.

 6            MEMBER RICH:    Madam Chair.

 7            CHMN. BOUCEK:    Yes.

 8            MEMBER RICH:    Mr. Gonzalez, so do I understand

 9   that you have prepared a master plan for the fairgrounds?

10            THE WITNESS:    We have a facilities master plan

11   for the whole County.    And as part of that we are looking

12   at working with the fairgrounds.      Part of that was

13   developing certain office spaces throughout the County.

14   The fairgrounds is part of that, but right now we're

15   focused in on office space because of the need that we

16   have for staffing.

17            MEMBER RICH:    But do you have a master site plan

18   for future development of the fairgrounds?

19            THE WITNESS:    We have some conceptual plans at

20   this point.   We haven't gone to a formal plan because it's

21   something that we are planning for in the future.        But we

22   don't have something in - - nothing approved.

23            MEMBER RICH:    Right now your impact fees don't

24   include an assessment for the fairgrounds?

25            THE WITNESS:    Yes, they do.


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1               MEMBER RICH:    But under state statute aren't you

2    required to have completed the master plan for that?

3               THE WITNESS:    We - - maybe Mr. Haifley can address

4    it.   One of the - - well, let me try and address it.

5               As part of the calculating the impact fees, there

 6   was a plan that was submitted and approved, and I don't

7    have it with me.     Because, yes, we did.        You're absolutely

8    right.    We did have to get a proposal of a master plan.

9    And I don't have it with me, but I can certainly provide

10   that to you.

11              MEMBER RICH:    Is it possible for us to get a site

12   plan or maybe even the zoning exhibit that went with your

13   zoning just to kind of give us an idea about, you know,

14   how this line impacts, you know, the future development of

15   the fairgrounds?

16              If we could get something like that - - and maybe

17   it's in here somewhere, but I just didn't see it.

18              THE WITNESS:     It is not, but we will try and

19   provide that.

20              MEMBER RICH     Thank you.

21              MR. ROBERTSON:    Just one moment.

22              Chairman Boucek, to explain why I asked for a

23   moment to look, I thought I had seen a site plan attached

24   to Pinal Exhibit 2.

25              CHMN. BOUCEK:    Mr. Robertson, if you would like a


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     1   few moments to look for that, I thought we could perhaps

     2   take a break at this point.    So would that - -

     3            MR. ROBERTSON:    That would be fine.       Thank you.

     4            CHMN. BOUCEK:    All right.     We'll take a 10-minute

     5   break.

     6            (A recess was taken from 3:15 p.m. to 3:30 p.m.)

     7            CHMN. BOUCEK:     If everyone could take their

     8   seats, please.

    9             What I ' m hoping to do this afternoon is we're

    10   hoping to perhaps get through the testimony offered by

    11   Pinal County, and then we will adjourn.         We'll discuss the

    12   times and dates of the next meeting, and then we'll

    13   adjourn until the next meeting time that we'll have

    14   determined previously.

    15            Okay.   At this time, Mr. Robertson, are you

    16   prepared to continue?

    17            MR. ROBERTSON:     I am, Chairman Boucek.      Thank you

    18   for that recess.     I was puzzled because the overlay that I

    19   believe may be responsive to Ms. Rich's question was

    20   attached to my copy of Pinal Exhibit 2 , but we discovered

I   21   that it was not to the others.
I   22
I                 So we have had reproduced and passed out to all
    23   of the members of the Siting Committee, the court

    24   reporter, and counsel for all parties, a copy of a

    25   one-page document.    It says on the right-hand side, "Case


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 1   No. PZ-PD-055-06, Exhibit A , " and in the lower right-hand

 2   corner, "Pinal County Fairgrounds Site Plan."

 3       Q.   (BY MR. ROBERTSON)    And against that background,

 4   Mr. Gonzalez, I would ask you:    Was that document attached

 5   to the resolution that was adopted by the County, along

 6   with the legal description of the fairgrounds property?

 7       A.   Yes, it was.

 8       Q.   So it should properly be included as a part of

 9   Pinal County Exhibit 3 ?

10       A.   That's correct.

11       Q.   Okay.   I believe you were describing the role of

12   the impact fee as shown in a parenthetical reference in

13   three different points under your growth management

14   initiative slides.   If you would like to resume your

15   discussion of that and perhaps be responsive to the line

16   of inquiry that Ms. Rich was posing to you.

17       A.   Yes, thank you, Mr. Robertson.

18            Chairman Boucek, Ms. Rich, the County when they

19   adopted the impact fees adopted - - there were seven what

20   we called IFA, impact fee areas, and there were three

21   components that made up the impact fees.          One was for

22   roads, one was for public safety, and one was for parks.

23            And there was an adopted capital plan as part of

24   that, and I will provide it.     I don't have it with me, but

25   there was one.   I called my office and we got that


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 1   clarified.   So you were correct, and we will provide that

 2   to the Committee, what was approved as part of that plan.

 3            MEMBER RICH:     Thank you.

 4            MR. ROBERTSON:    And Chairman Boucek, if it's

 5   acceptable, we'll provide that when the hearings resume,

 6   or we can actually send it out to the parties and to the

 7   Siting Committee through you in the interim period of

 8   time, whichever you prefer.

 9            CHMN. BOUCEK:     I think as we discussed previously

10   we're probably going to have a procedural conference

11   before our next meeting, so we'll discuss - - we can

12   discuss that item as well at that time.          Thank you,

13   Mr. Robertson.

14            MR. ROBERTSON:    Very good.

15       Q.   (BY MR. ROBERTSON)    Mr. Gonzalez, would you

16   please continue with your Powerpoint presentation.

17       A.   Thank you, Mr. Robertson.

18            One of the things that I did want to point out,

19   as part of our - - the County since 2005, as I was stating,

20   has taken much more of a leadership role as we move

21   forward in the County because of the growth.         We are

22   becoming more of a regional leader to the small towns and

23   cities that comprise Pinal County.

24            And as such, beginning in August of 2006, I

25   believe, we had a transportation summit where we invited


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 1   all of the elected officials from all of the cities and

 2   towns that comprise    --   that are in Pinal County, as well

 3   as developers and other interested parties to a

 4   transportation summit so we could begin planning the

 5   future of roads in Pinal County.

 6              We understood that we have certain areas of the

 7   County that are now in gridlock, and that's not including

 8   1-10.    That's all of you that have driven on 1-10, I mean,

 9   it's become a major, major problem getting from Tucson to

10   Phoenix in any time that you need to.

11              So we had a transportation summit in August.
12   W e ' v e had a follow-up transportation summit, which was

13   very well-received.

14              During the initial transportation summit, a lot
15   of discussion that had never taken place in Pinal County

16   took place where we actually had ADOT come and make

17   presentations on what they were planning.       And again, it

18   started the ongoing discussions with cities and towns on

19   looking at roads and how to get people around the County

20   and through the County and that.

21              We also, as I mentioned, had a follow-up
22   transportation summit to find out where we were and what

23   kind of progress we had made.      We held those and the other

24   two at the Ak-Chin casino, because that's about the only

25   large facility that we have in the County right now.         And


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 1   that was - - we had over close to 250 people at that for

 2   both of those.

 3              We also had a health and human service summit,

 4   and again we brought all of the social service agencies

 5   along with all of the cities to talk about health and

 6   human service.

 7              And the last one we had in November, we had an

 8   open space and trails master plan summit where we actually

 9   presented what the County was proposing as part of that

10   plan.

11              So again, we're playing more of a regional

12   leadership role than we have ever done, and I just wanted

13   to bring that up because I think it's significant as we

14   move forward how we want to see Pinal County develop, how

15   we want to work with the community within Pinal County and

16   help them achieve what their desired goals are.

17              Moving forward, as Larry mentioned, we     --   next

18   slide, please - - one of the things that we did do last

19   year in April is we did get the fairgrounds rezoned.          And

20   the main reason for that was because the board of

21   supervisors and county management felt that we wanted to

22   maintain the fairgrounds as they currently are and keep

23   providing the services and activities that are kind of the

24   focal point of Pinal County in this area.

25              So we asked the   --   we went through the whole


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     zoning process and got it zoned from a business zone to a

     planned area development with a district overlay and a

     special use permit.      Again, I'll walk you through some of

     the other slides, but we have racing, we have different

 5   activities.

 6       Q.    Mr. Gonzalez, let me interject at this point, if

 7   I might ask you a question.

 8             Do people view the Pinal County Fairgrounds as a

 9   destination point?       In other words, do they specifically

10   make trips there to participate in activities there and

11   spend time there?

12      A.     Yes, Mr. Robertson.     As a matter of fact, Terry

13   has, for the last 20 years, continues to have activities

14   that actually bring people back on an annual basis for

15   activities.    So yes.    The answer is yes.

16       Q.    So they're not just passing through?

17      A.     No, sir.   They come to Pinal County for that

18   reason, to participate in activities at the Pinal County

19   Fairgrounds.

20       Q.    Thank you.

21       A.    Next slide.

22             One of the things that to me is very important is

23   trying to preserve the treasures that make Pinal County

24   unique.   Again, you know, I've been talking about all of

25   the growth that's coming to this community, but we also


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 1   have a very, very sensitive    --   we want to preserve what's

 2   already here.     And one of the things we want to do is

 3   preserve the fairgrounds because of what it does.

 4             Let me give you a little brief history on the

 5   fairgrounds.

 6             Next.

 7             The fairgrounds were established in 1956.      This

 8   isn't something that, you know, all of the sudden we

 9   decided to go buy 120 acres last year to get in front of

10   any development.     This has been here there, you know,

11   since 1956, 51 years of continuous operations as a

12   fairgrounds.    We've had, you know, all of the type of

13   activities that come with the annual fair, and some other

14   activities that I'll point out.

15             It's also been the site for county, state,

16   regional and national events.       It's also the site for many

17   cultural and community and family events.       Weddings happen

18   at the fairgrounds on a weekly basis, Friday, Saturday,

19   and sometimes Sunday.     So it's become a focal point for

20   many families because, again, it provides a venue that's

21   not available in some of the smaller communities in Pinal

22   County.

23             It also acts as the site for emergency relief

24   efforts not only for our emergency operations center as a

25   relief for that, but also statewide.


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     1              Next.

    2               Let me just show you some pictures of what Pinal

     3   County has been.       I just wanted to show you this slide

     4   because down here is - - it used to be the old stables

     5   where there used to be actually horse racing, and that

     6   wasn't too - - I can't remember, Terry.           When was the last

     7   year that you had that?

     8              I t ' s been a while, but they allowed horse racing

    9    back in the early years of the fairgrounds.

    10              Next.

    11              Here is another site.      This is the current

    12   exhibit - - this is the slab that was poured for the

    13   current exhibit hall now.        The SRP line is actually going

    14   to go right around along this alignment here.

    15              Go ahead.

    16              And this is just a picture of our existing track.

    17         Q.   As you go through these slides, would you please

    18   show with your laser where the SRP route alignment would

    19   be and, thus, where the preferred preferred route would

    20   be?

    21         A.   Yes.    This is the SRP line right up here, the one

    22   that's been approved already.
~




    23              Next.

    24              This is a picture of an RV rally that was held
    25   several years ago, and this is where the SRP line will be


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 1   going right across here.     This is the SRP line will go

 2   right across there.

 3              There's a picture over here if you want to take a

 4   look at it.     It's a little clearer.

 5              Next.

 6              Again, there's the same picture, a little blowup

 7   in this area.      This is the area, again, where the SRP line

8    will be going through and where the preferred route for

9    APS is.

10              Next.

11              Let me give you a flavor of what some of the

12   activities that ongoing we have at the fair.       Last year in

13   2007, the fiddler show drew about 10,000 people.       That's a

14   weekend activity that usually happens in about early

15   January.    Car racing, we generally draw for a weekend or

16   two between 8- to 10,000 people.

17              The annual gourd festival.     In our last car

18   racing event that we had, we had people from 22 states

19   come and participate in this event.       We get people from

20   all over the country.

21              The Pinal County Fair, we annually draw about
22   28,000 people.      Last year the kids selling livestock

23   raised about $700,000 from livestock they sold at our

24   county fairgrounds.      So it's a significant activity at our

25   fairgrounds every year to do these types of activities.


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 1              And then something that happened this last year

 2   was a phenomenon called Phooson, and Phooson stands for

 3   Phoenix and Tucson.       It's actually two radio stations, one

 4   in Tucson and one in Phoenix, came up with this concert

 5   that had Enrique Iglesias as the headliner.       We had it on

 6   one day, and we had 11,000 people come to this, some as

 7   far away as California.

 8               Terry was telling me that he had people lining up

9    at 1:30 in the morning because it was a general admission

10   concert.

11       Q.     Manny, has the Phooson concert been booked for

12   this year?

13       A.     Yes.     Terry mentioned to me yesterday that

14   May 9th we've got another date for them to come out and

15   have another concert.

16              Next please.

17               This is just some pictures of our last county

18   fair.    I just want to go ahead and - -

19              Next.

20              Again, some of the livestock that was there.

21       Q.     Manny, can we go back to that previous slide for

22   a moment?

23       A.      Sure.

24       Q.      Does that show people extending all of the way

25   back to the far left-hand side - -


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 1       A.        Yeah.

 2          Q.     - - in this picture?

 3       A.        Yes, it does.

 4          Q.     And are those fair exhibits and recreational

 5   equipment going all the way back in the distance?

 6       A.        Yes, they are.

 7          Q.     So the entire area there is being occupied by

 8   use?

9       A.        Yes.     And I have some pictures that will depict

10   exactly which area they cover.

11                Next.

12                And again, you know, we have       --   and this draws

13   ab ut 28,000 people depending on weather.              If the weather

14   is good, we get more.         If it's bad, we tend to lose a few

15   folks.

16                Next.

17                 Again, this is what the concert - - in preparation

18   for the concert, the actual - - the SRP line will go across

19   here.       This is looking south-southeast kind of from the

20   fairgrounds.        And this is where the SRP line and the

21   preferred route for APS would go.

22                 Next.

23                 And again, the SRP line would go back here.

24                 This is our midway.    They were setting up a

25   midway.       Because as part of the Phooson, Terry was able to


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1    convince a carnival company to come in and have come

2    carnival rides there.

3             Next.

4             And this, again, I believe - - this is just again

 5   showing just as the prep work was going on, and the actual

 6   line goes across here.

 7            Next.

 8            This is actually the first performer that

 9   performed at the Phooson concert, and this was about 6 : O O

10   in the evening.    It was just getting dark.    And again,

11   across here is where that line would go.

12       Q.   Now, how far back are the fairgrounds properties

13   being occupied and used in this picture?

14       A.   I would say probably a quarter mile from here.

15            Next , please.

16            And again, this is the same performer as it was

17   getting darker.    And the SRP lines that are approved are

18   up in this area.    This is looking south again.     And this

19   is the midway that we set up for activities.

20            Next.

21            And again, this was one of the last performers.
22   That's Enrique Iglesias.    And the SRP lines would go along

23   back here.

24            Okay.    This was - - we had a race car - - car
25   racing a couple of weeks ago for two weekends.       This was


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     the second - - two weeks ago, Terry?

                Two weeks ago.    And this is the area in and

     around the fairgrounds, and I'll have another one.

 4              Next.

 5              These are - - you know, a lot of the folks that

 6   are into car racing come from all over the country and

 7   they have their trailers, and this is the staging area for

 8   that.

 9       Q.     And where is this in relation to where the SRP

10   route would go?

11      A.      I believe the SRP route would go back here.

12              Next.

13              Again, the SRP up north of here, right here.

14       Q.     And what direction are we looking?

15      A.      Looking northwest.

16       Q.     So this is south of the SRP line; is that

17   correct?

18      A.      That's correct.

19              Next, please.

20              And this is again looking kind of west, more west

21   and northwest again, and the SRP line is going to go up

22   here.

23              Okay.   This is the actual race and the race car,

24   and this is the SRP line.        If the APS line goes south of

25   it, you'll see we have a depiction, but this is where the


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,.1

  2

  3

  4

  5
      SRP line it and where the APS and SRP lines would go.



      racetrack?

          A.
      that.
             Q.
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                  So the APS line would go right over the



                  Yes.
                                                              1/23/2008




                          Some of the spans or the wires will do
                                                                                434




  6          Q.   Okay.

  7       A.      One of the things that I did want to point out,

  8   as part of the rezoning and one of the things that we

  9   wanted to insure as part of the racing, we actually stop

 10   racing at 1 1 : O O at night in order to - - because of the - -

 11   in order to deal with the neighborhood issues.                Because

 12   the cars get pretty loud, and 1 1 : O O is the latest we'll go

 13   for car racing.

 14               Let me just talk about the impact of the APS

 15   preferred route.       What you see here is the blue line or

 16   kind of grayish line that's the SRP approved line right

 17   now.     And the preferred route that APS has suggested is

 18   either north of the SRP line or south of it.

 19               And this is the impact on the racing, and I think
 20   I showed you what it did on that curve.              This is that

 21   curve that I showed you in one of the other pictures.                     But

 22   the span, according to what the preliminary information

 23   that we received from APS and SRP, they need 1 3 0 feet of

 24   right-of-way, and APS needs 1 3 0 .       So it's either this - - I
 25   mean, it's either SRP here and APS up here, or APS to the


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 1   south of it.          So that's the impact on our fair.

 2                   This is the area where we had our midway, and

 3   this is where the concert             --   some of the concert fans were

 4   in this area as well.

 5          (2.      So these areas that appear as open space on this

 6   aerial photo are actually heavily in use in other

 7   situations?

 8       A.          That's correct.       And I've got some other slides

 9   that will show that.

10                   Next, please.

11                   This is what the future plans for the fairgrounds

12   are.         One of the things that I want to point out, this

13   area down here is where we currently have our animal

14   control center, and this serves countywide.                    This is a

15   countywide facility.

16                   The building that I ' m showing you right here is

17   currently there.           We're in the process of designing - -

18   duplicating the capacity because of the need, and this is

19   the future growth area.

20                   We're looking at creating a rodeo area here.                   One
21   of the areas that - - because we own the entire property,

22   we're looking at some kind of a long-range here, some kind

23   of a regional county facility.               One of the areas that will

24   definitely go here is the emergency operations center or

25   part of the emergency operations center.                  One of the other


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 1   things w e ' r e looking at is possibly as a fleet services

 2   center.    We actually have already looked at this site for

 3   that purpose.      Terry has been planning for several years

 4   to double the exhibit hall which is right here.

 5              The yellow lines that you see on here are

 6   currently in existence.      These are the lines that we use

 7   when we have those RV rallies.         This is where they plug

 8   in.    These are these yellow lines that you see here.

 9         Q.   Do you have underground electrical in those areas

10   to accommodate the RV units?

11         A.   No.

12         Q.   Okay.    Is it overhead?

13         A.   It's a little of both,        tually.

14              Okay.   Next, please.

15              This is a depiction of - - this is the fiddler and

16   gourd show.      This is kind of what it looks like.     And what

17   I wanted to show you is this is the area of the

18   fairgrounds that they take up when they have these events.

19              Here's the SRP line.       And, again, then the APS

20   or, you know, either the north or the south.         But this is

21   the area that this event takes up during this event.

22              And here is the racetrack to give you

23   perspective.

24              Next , please.

25              This is when we have a full-blown weekend event,


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 1   and this is the area that is taken up during the races.

 2   Again, here is the SRP line and the proposed preferred

 3   route, APS s.
                I




 4            Next.

 5            And here is when we have a full-fledged RV rally,

 6   this is the whole area that they encompasses.             You're

 7   looking at almost three-quarters of the whole fairgrounds

 8   property is taken up by these rallies.

 9            And again, here's the SRP approved line and the

10   APS preferred.   There's the race track.

11            Next.   And here is the concert that we recently

12   had and we're going to have again on May 9th.             And this is

13   the whole area that it took.     It came all of the way

14   almost to this area.     This is the racetrack in here.

15            It looks empty, but when we have 1 1 , 0 0 0 people

16   that's the area that it covers.

17            Next.

18            And the County Fair, which is a three-day event

19   or five-day event, and it takes up this whole entire area,

20   because you're looking at people that come in and park and

21   you have vendors and everybody.       So we end up taking this

22   whole entire area for that time period.

23            The racetrack is over in this area.

24            Next.   Okay.

25       Q.   Manny, let me stop you here for a moment.               Would


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    0    1   it be correct to say that with current uses and activities

         2   as well as past, a substantial amount of the fairgrounds

         3   property is used throughout the year at various points in

         4   time?

         5       A.     Absolutely.

         6       Q.     And would it be correct to say that with planned

         7   future uses the entire Pinal County Fairgrounds property

         8   will be used throughout the year at various times?

        9        A.     Yes.

        10       Q.     Okay.

        11       A.     And one of the things that I want to point out - -

        12   I ' l l point it out on this one so he doesn't have to pull

        13   the other one back - - this is vacant for the reasons that

        14   you have seen.     The events that happen, the more open, the

        15   more flexibility Terry has in planning his events, it's

        16   like the fairgrounds.

        17              I mean, if you go to the state fairgrounds, you
        18   have got the coliseum and you've got a lot of empty space.

        19   But when you go to the State Fair, you see all the arcades

        20   and all the other things that happen in and around the - -

        21   you know, this would be the - - you know, the nuthouse on

        22   McDowell is what I remember it as, but the coliseum.              And
~




        23   around it is you've got all of, you know, the fair events

        24   and all of the activities.

        25              This is kind of the same way.          We leave i t open


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 1   so that Terry has the flexibility to bring in all of those

 2   RVs, or to bring in the midway, or to bring in, you know,

 3   other events.    The concert wouldn't have happened if this

 4   wasn't - - if he had created some more buildings in this

 5   area.    This allows him the flexibility to bring in big

 6   events on an annual basis.

 7       Q.     Manny, your presentation appears to indicate that

 8   sometimes for several days at a time at various points

 9   throughout the year, and sometimes for a single day,

10   literally thousands of people are occupying areas of the

11   fairgrounds that would be impacted by the APS line; is

12   that correct?

13      A.      That's correct.

14       Q.     Do you feel that the presence of those people in

15   those numbers for those periods of time is a sensitivity

16   that should be considered just like the sensitivity of

17   people attending schools?

18       A.     Absolutely.   I think we have more people that

19   come to the fair even in one day sometimes than are at the

20   school, which I understand has a very small enrollment.

21       Q.     Do you happen to know what the enrollment is for

22   the two schools that Ms. Pollio had mentioned earlier

23   today?

24       A.     About 144, somewhere in that area.

25       Q.     Please continue.


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 1       A.   Okay.    Let me just now present the Pinal County

 2   position.

 3               The County does support the alternative route

4    proposed by APS in its December 11 application.       It also

 5   does support the hybrid combination of APS proposed

 6   preferred route and the proposed alternate route, and we

 7   can also support the modified preferred route suggested by

 8   Mr. Campbell and Mr. Robertson.

 9            We strongly oppose the APS proposed preferred

10   route across the Pinal County Fairgrounds.

11       Q.   Could the County also support the modified

12   alternate route in order to move the east/west southern

13   portion of that a little bit further north of Earley Road?

14      A.    Yes.    And in conclusion - - next slide, please.

15            The alternate route and the hybrid route will

16   allow the Pinal County Fairgrounds to continue to perform

17   its vital role in the quality of life for present and

18   future Pinal County residents and visitors.

19               The preferred route substantially and adversely

20   impacts the operations of the Pinal County Fairgrounds.

21       Q.   And Mr. Gonzalez, to reflect what has unfolded

22   during the two days of this proceeding, the modified

23   preferred route and the modified alternate route would

24   also allow the Pinal County Fairgrounds to continue to

25   perform its vital role; is that correct?


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 1       A.     That's correct.    And with that, I would be happy

 2   to answer any questions.

 3              CHMN. BOUCEK:    Mr. Gonzalez, I was wondering,

 4   being new to this, I obviously was not, you know, at any

 5   of the prior Line Siting Committee hearings.

 6              When SRP, it did go through the Line Siting

 7   Committee process when it had the line that crosses the

 8   fairgrounds approved; right?        Is that correct?

 9              THE WITNESS:    That's correct.

10              CHMN. BOUCEK:    And by the way, if you don't have

11   personal knowledge of, you know, the questions I ' m about

12   to ask you, you can just let me know that.

13              But did Pinal County intervene in that

14   proceeding?

15              THE WITNESS:    My understanding is that we didn't.

16              CHMN. BOUCEK:    You did not?

17              THE WITNESS:    No, we did not.

18              CHMN. BOUCEK:    Okay.

19              THE WITNESS:    And that was actually approved

20   prior to me coming to Pinal County and it was under a

21   different administration.        So I did want to point that
22   out.    I do not know exactly the rationale why that was n o t

23   done.

24              MR. ROBERTSON:    Chairman Boucek, might I respond

25   to that point?    Because I looked into that when I was


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 1   retained by Pinal County.

 2            At the time of that case, one of the Pinal County

 3   supervisors, Sandie Smith, was a member of the Siting

 4   Committee.    So as to her personal involvement, she had to

 5   recuse herself effectively with regard to the case,

 6   although she did sit.

 7               It's my understanding that the application of SRP

 8   was brought to the attention of Pinal County.             As

 9   originally filed, the SRP route would not have gone

10   through the Pinal County Fairgrounds, so the County did

11   not intervene.

12            Somewhere along the way during the proceeding,

13   perhaps as a result of a change in position by the City of

14   Coolidge, the route was adjusted north to its current

15   location where it does impact the fairgrounds, but by that

16   point it was too late for Pinal County to do anything

17   about it.    They did not have standing as a party.

18            Because that was a question that I had when I was

19   first retained by the County.

20            CHMN. BOUCEK:     Okay.    Yes, Mr. Palmer.

21            MEMBER PALMER:        Pinal County is not opposed to

22   the hybrid route and doesn't have an issue with the

23   viewscape obstruction?     Because one of the rationales for

24   paralleling transmission lines is it reduces the overall

25   viewscape obstruction that would be created by a large


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 1   separation.

 2              THE WITNESS:   Could you repeat the question?       I'm

 3   sorry.

 4              MEMBER PALMER:   Well, what you have is the SRP

 5   line traverses an area just to the north of the racetrack.

 6              THE WITNESS:   Correct.

 7              MEMBER PALMER:   And some of the proposals provide

 8   for an alignment - - the preferred route - - that would

 9   either be immediately south of that or immediately north

10   of that.

11              The alternate route and the hybrid alternate

12   route provide for an alignment close to Earley Road or

13   just north of Earley Road.     That would create another

14   obstruction of view for those people that were attending

15   the fairgrounds for whatever purpose, and that is

16   apparently not an issue.

17              Viewscape is not an issue as much as displacement

18   of land use as a consequence of close paralleling of the

19   two lines?

20              THE WITNESS:   Chairman, Mr. Palmer, I believe it

21   is an issue.    But in looking at the two uses, you know,

22   there is a vacant lot that is directly south of the

23   fairgrounds.   And within that corridor there may be an

24   opportunity to take advantage of that and not cause a very

25   visual problem to the neighbors to the south.


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              There's still enough area, hopefully, that if the

     whole 3,000 feet that APS is requesting is allowed, there

     may be an opportunity to utilize the corridor that would

     alleviate some of that.    I believe it's still going to

     become an issue because everybody has a different

     perspective on it.

7             MR. CAMPBELL:    But clearly your preference is to

 8   have this 230kV/69 underbuild to be located south of the

 9   boundary of the fairgrounds?

10            THE WITNESS:    That's correct.

11            MR. CAMPBELL:    And somewhere in that area between

12   there and Earley Road north of the canal?

13            THE WITNESS:    That's correct.

14            MEMBER PALMER:    Thank you.

15            CHMN. BOUCEK:    Ms. Rich.

16            MEMBER RICH:    Mr. Gonzalez, one of the - - it

17   seems that the County's position is that preferable to

18   going through the County fairgrounds would be the Earley

19   Road alignment, and it seems that that might not be

20   preferred by some of the residents of the Tierra Grande

21   subdivision.

22            Have you conducted your own outreach efforts with
23   those folks to tell them of the County's position and to

24   get their input?

25            THE WITNESS:    Madam Chair, Ms. Rich, I know that


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 1   Mr. Haifley has ongoing dialogue with the residents that

 2   live south of the fairgrounds.        And in his discussions,

 3   they said as long as it's not on the canal, they probably

 4   would be okay with it, is the feedback that we have

 5   gotten.   And I think the further north of Earley that we

 6   go, the more palatable it will be to people.              Not

 7   necessarily will everybody agree to it, probably not, but

 8   I think it will probably make it, again, more palatable to

 9   the residents the further north of Earley and south of the

10   fairgrounds we can make it.

11             MEMBER RICH:    At some point can we hear directly

12   from him about his conversations with those residents?

13             CHMN. BOUCEK:     Yes, we could do that.

14             THE WITNESS:    Mr. Haifley's conversation?              We

15   can.

16             MR. ROBERTSON:        Chairman Boucek, Ms. Rich, we

17   could call Mr. Haifley if you all would like to ask him

18   some questions on those conversations.

19             CHMN. BOUCEK:     Are you interested in doing that?

20             MEMBER RICH:    Yes, I would.

21             CHMN. BOUCEK:     Let's go ahead and we'll arrange

22   that as soon as - -

23             MR. ROBERTSON:        Would you like to do that at this

24   time, or complete the questions with Mr. Gonzalez and then

25   call Mr. Haifley?     We can do it either way.


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 1              CHMN. BOUCEK:   Why don't we finish with

 2   Mr. Gonzalez.    Okay.

 3              Mr. Smith.

 4

 5                              EXAMINATION

 6

 7       Q.     (BY MEMBER SMITH)   Mr. Gonzalez, in your packet,

 8   you explained previously, it's titled Pinal County Growth

 9   Management Initiative, 15-point plan.

10       A.     Uh-huh.

11       Q.     And the third one down is Pinal trails and master

12   plan, and the fourth one is open space master plan.         One

13   of the things - - and Mr. Robertson brought it out earlier,
14   too, of some of the points of our charge here in this

15   Committee is recreational uses has a priority, an equal

16   priority to - - not equal to all of them, but just

17   wondering if - - and it's something that I think we try to

18   do all of the time, if possible, is utilize transmission

19   lines as a multipurpose facility rather than just being in

20   no man's land or along right-of-ways.

21              Generally, they are not utilized to their

22   maximum.    And that's one of my strong feelings relative to

23   the quarter-mile section is that usually they can go

24   through residential, commercial, they can abut parks, they

25   can abut schools, and utilize the transmission lines as


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 1   parts of a trail system.

 2             I ' m wondering if in your open space master plan

 3   or your trails - - Pinal trail master plan, is that

 4   something that was considered or that it could be

 5   considered?

 6       A.   Madam Chair, Mr. Smith, yes, it was.        I know that

 7   the staff working on that plan has been in contact with

 8   SRP and working in collaboration with SRP on that.        So

 9   yes, they are looking at all of those trails and utilizing

10   some of the existing transmission corridors.

11       Q.   Would this application be one that could be a

12   possible site also, or actually as a resource that could

13   be connecting a good bit of Pinal County's trail system if

14   you were to endorse it and be a part of it?

15       A.   Chairman Boucek, Mr. Smith, I believe so, yes.

16   We can look at it, definitely.

17       Q.   The other thing in your packet toward the back

18   end, and it's labeled Pinal County Fairgrounds, it's the

19   same as the large display you have here.        But it has on

20   that - - it is not titled, but it does have future county

21   facility and it has several other buildings shown.

22       A.   Right.

23       Q.   And it also shows two - - it looks like footprints

24   that might be just directly north of the County

25   facility - -


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     1       A.     That's correct.

     2       Q.     --   of which that would be under one - - well, it

     3   looks like it would even be two of the buildings under the

     4   Salt River Project right-of-way and under the south

     5   right-of-way for APS's proposal.

     6      A.      Right.

     7       Q.     In looking at this, it looks like that is the

     8   beginning of an overall master plan for the County park;

     9   is that correct?

    10      A.      That's correct.      And again, you know, we have

    11   been doing our facilities master plan for about a year

    12   now.    We got it approved     --   actually, about a year and a

    13   half.    We got it approved last June of '07.

    14              And we have not gone out that far because our

    15   main focus for doing that plan was to concentrate office

    16   space.    We need to   --   we are in need of about

    17   340,000 square feet of office space just for staff.             And

    18   we're focusing in right now into creating some office

    19   space in Florence, in and around Florence, because that's

    20   where our county seat is, and that's where a big chunk of

    21   our staff is.

    22              But as part of the fairgrounds, we had looked at

    23   possibly moving our fleet services garage out there.

    24   Again, I mentioned the possibility of moving a component


0   25   of the emergency operations center over there so that we


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 1   can focus everything in Florence.       So those are the types

 2   of things that we've been looking at for probably a year

 3   now, what are some of the offices that we can move out to

 4   the fairgrounds.

 5            Because we don't have - - we don't own a lot of

 6   property, especially in this type of configuration and

 7   this close to a lot of - - you know, the fairgrounds are

 8   close to 1-10 and 1-8, so it does provide moving in and

 9   around the County fairly easy.    So we are looking at

10   different alternatives, and those are some of the things

11   that we are looking at.

12       Q.   Well, it looks like most of the use of this site

13   plan would be that of parking or open space, and no

14   different than in the agricultural utilization under

15   transmission lines.   The poles are not that     --   they don't

16   occupy that much space, and it seems as though you could

17   almost conduct a lot of the activities that you have shown

18   us in the space underneath the transmission lines.

19            And I know if you had the choice of not having

20   them, I don't blame you.    It would best not be there.        But

21   it might be a good ancillary use.       I see it, though,

22   again, it's a good way to get utilized the trail systems

23   to come to major focus points like the County park, if it

24   were a part of an overall trail system.

25            But anyway, those are just my thoughts on this,


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 1   that if this is your master plan, it looks like the

 2   potential of the south right-of-way might be         --    because

 3   you cannot put buildings under the transmission line, but

 4   you can utilize it for any other pedestrian or parking

 5   uses.

 6       A.     Right.

 7       Q.     So it really wouldn't impact too much other than

 8   the visual quality of the fairgrounds.

 9       A.     That's correct.

10              CHMN. BOUCEK:    I ' m sorry, Mr. Gonzalez, to

11   interrupt.    Go ahead.

12              THE WITNESS:    No.    I understand.

13              You know, again,      his is - - I wouldn't say tL,is

14   is our final master plan.        Again, we've been looking at

15   many, many configurations.       And again, you know, we can

16   move some of those buildings around if we need to.               But

17   again, nothing is firmed up other than, you know, w e ' v e

18   been looking at all of the options right now.             So I

19   appreciate your feedback.

20       Q.     (BY MEMBER SMITH)      It looks as though, also, if

21   the SRP line goes in as a reality and you do the hybrid

22   proposal, you're going to be sandwiched between two power

23   line corridors.     You're going to have them on the north

24   and the south.

25              And it's just a thought that if the visual


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     1   quality is what you're concerned with, you know, I ' m just

     2   wondering is it better to put all of your eggs in one

     3   basket, or is it better to spoil two baskets and put them

     4   on both sides?

     5         A.   Right.   Chairman Boucek, Mr. Smith, you know,

     6   depending on what the alignment ends up being will

     7   determine also what the use that we have out there.            So I

     8   think that, you know, right now, again, it's conceptual.

     9   We're looking at all of the opportunities.        And once it's

    10   decided as to where the APS line will go, then we'll do

    11   it.    I mean, we'll act accordingly in how we plan our

    12   future fairgrounds.

    13              MEMBER SMITH:   Well, the same as the comments

    14   made to Mr. Roberts relative to the use of his facilities,

    15   I truly appreciate your bringing this to our attention so

    16   that rather than spoiling something in the future, we can

    17   address it at this point in time when it's still flexible.

    18   But truly appreciate your thoughts and your comments.

    19              THE WITNESS:    Thank you very much.

    20

    21                              EXAMINATION

    22

    23         Q.   (BY CHMN. BOUCEK)     Mr. Gonzalez, if APS were to

    24   say, you know, we would be willing to, you know, move off

0   25   our preferred east/west - - you know, the east/west line on


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 1   our preferred route but remain within the corridor that's

 2   basically been noticed, you know, prior to this time, but

 3   at the same time saying but we're unwilling to specify a

 4   specific route for purposes of the issuance of the

 5   Certificate of Environmental Compatibility, in other

 6   words,' if they were to request some flexibility within a

 7   corridor south of the preferred route but north of the

 8   alternate route, would Pinal County be willing to accept,

 9   in a sense, a Certificate of Environmental Compatibility

10   that would grant some - - you know, would not have a

11   specific line set out in that Certificate of Environmental

12   Compatibility?

13       A.        Chairman Boucek, let me see if I understand

14   your - - if we could get a site map.           Is it within the

15   3,000-foot corridor?

16       Q.        Yeah.    It would be in the striped - -

17       A.        And south of the fairgrounds?

18       Q.        Yes, south of the fairgrounds.

19       A.        Yes.

20       Q.        It would be south of the fairgrounds.          They would

21   move off the current preferred.         They would say, we would

22   be south of the current preferred, yes, and within that

23   3,000    --

24       A.        Within the hatched area there?

25       Q.        --   foot corridor but?


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 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   In other words, they wouldn't necessarily say

 3   we're going to pick the alternate route, which is

 4   indicated in the broken line, the blue line there, but

 5   they - - you know, and they wouldn't say specifically like

 6   midway between that point.         They would in other words - -

 7       A.   Anything south of here would be acceptable to the

 8   County, of the yellow line here.

 9            CHMN. BOUCEK:      All right.     I just wanted to

10   clarify that.

11            THE WITNESS:      Yes.

12            CHMN. BOUCEK:      Thank you.

13            Yes, Mr. Eberhart.

14            MEMBER EBERHART:         Thank you.   I just had a couple

15   of quick questions.

16

17                              EXAMINATION

18

19       Q.   (BY MEMBER EBERHART)         Earlier in your

20   presentation, i t seems the County has enacted an impact

21   fee, at least one portion of which goes for fairgrounds

22   improvements or   --

23       A.   Mr. Chairman, Mr. - - I ' m sorry.       I ' m having a
24   hard time seeing.      Mr. Eberhart?

25       Q.   Yes.


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     1       A.     The impact fees consist of three things.           One is

     2   for roads, one is for public safety, and one is for parks,

     3   not necessarily fairgrounds, but parks.          Because we have

     4   parks throughout the County.    So part of that money, if

     5   it's in that, we have seven different impact fee areas

     6   that we call them.    So in each of those some of them have

     7   all three, some of them only have two, depending on where

     8   they're at in development.

     9       Q.     Is there a fund or a fairgrounds       --    I don't
    10   know - - capital improvement program for the County?

    11       A.     Each year we go through a budget process and we

    12   do provide money for capital funding for the fairgrounds,

    13   depending on fund availability.

    14              The fairgrounds is also an enterprise fund.             And

    15   they create some of their own money, and sometimes they

    16   use some of their own money to create some new venues.

    17   Most of the time the County does provide the money for

    18   capital.

    19       Q.     Seeing the photographs that were in the slides,

    20   and particularly the RV event, it seems like there wasn't

    21   much space left over on the 120 acres.          Would you agree

    22   with that?

    23       A.     No, not when the RV rally - - no, absolutely not.
    24   They took almost the entire site.       As you can tell, I


a   25   think they even parked folks inside the racetrack in order


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 1   to accommodate that.

 2       Q.     With the projected growth that has been talked

 3   about for the County, it seems that over the long-term

 4   120 acres is probably not going to be sufficient in the

 5   future to maintain the quality of the County fair site.

 6              Would you agree with that?

 7       A.     Chairman Boucek, Mr. Eberhart, absolutely.          And

 8   that's part of the reason we want to preserve as much as

 9   we can.    Because it allows us to, you know, create a focal

10   point for the fairgrounds that have been there for 51

11   years.    We don't want to go anywhere else.       That's the

12   site that's been there for 51 years.       This is where we

13   want to stay.     We really don't want to move it, because

14   it's been there for that amount of time.         People know

15   where it is, people go there because of the activities

16   that happen.     So you're absolutely correct.

17       Q.    Are there any plans to expand?        You mentioned

18   there's an empty lot to the south, which obviously is

19   within the 3,000-foot corridor, but it appears - - I mean,
20   somebody owns it, but it's unimproved land - -

21       A.     Right.

22       Q.     --   to the west immediately to the northern

23   portion of the fairgrounds.     Are there any plans by the

24   County to acquire adjacent land to expand the site?

25       A.    We have actually looked at that and, you know,


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 1   some of those owners, as far as I know, are not willing to

 2   sell it at this point, or the price that they're asking

 3   for is significant.    So we have looked at that, especially

 4   the properties to the south of us.

 5       Q.    I assume the County is in negotiations with SRP

 6   for the SRP certificated line?

 7       A.   That's correct.

 8       Q.    In those negotiations has the County raised any

 9   objections to the placement of the line through the

10   fairgrounds?   Have you had discussions with them about

11   possibly moving, even though it might require an amendment

12   to the certification?

13       A.   Chairman Boucek, Mr. Eberhart, yes, we have.                  And

14   we understand the issues related to that, and at this time

15   we decided that we didn't want to pursue it.            But yes, we

16   have discussed that exact situation with SRP.

17       Q.   Looking at the poles that are probably going to

18   be on the property, I think Mr. Smith mentioned the

19   spacing is probably between 500 and 8 0 0 feet.

20             It looks like on that narrowest portion just

21   north of the racetrack that's about, I don't know, 1,000

22   feet, a quarter mile, 1 , 2 0 0 feet.   If the spacing of the

23   poles is 800 feet, that would mean that there's probably

24   only two poles in that area.

25             Is your objection based on two poles being in


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 1   that area?

2        A.     Chairman Boucek, Mr. Eberhart, the objection is

 3   more to the use.    You know, the sensitivity issue that was

 4   brought up by the APS witness earlier, how do you

 5   determine what is more sensitive, 11,000 people under the

 6   wires or, you know, a school?     I was having some

 7   difficulty understanding how do you determine what is more

 8   sensitive.    To us it has to do with the use.

9               I think that the County - - I mean, although we're
10   not very happy that SRP has their line right where it is,

11   but we understand that it's been sited and we recognize

12   that.    But once SRP decided to go there, it really renders

13   our site, I mean, very - - not very functional.

14              And again, because of the wires, we don't know

15   what that does to people that are - - you know, the RV

16   people are going to want to come back and sit under those

17   wires?    We don't know.   There's some impacts there that we

18   don't know.    And the sensitivity issue that was brought up

19   earlier is how do you which one weighs more than the

20   other.    I mean, that's a question that I think is still

21   open to discussion.

22       Q.     I understand that, and I actually agree with you

23   and I appreciate the sensitivity impact on the site.

24              I tend to agree with Mr. Smith that in an ideal

25   world, if there was a way to move both lines south of the


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 1   fairgrounds to that vacant land, that would probably be

 2   the most desirable alignment.

 3            Would you agree with that?       If we were able to

 4   move both the SRP and the APS lines so they were

 5   paralleling in the east/west direction and they were both

 6   located south of the fairgrounds?

 7       A.   Madam Chair, Mr. Eberhart, absolutely, yes.

 8       Q.   You alluded to discussions with SRP and some

 9   reasons why apparently they don't want to move - - don't
10   want to reopen the certification process, but are there

11   any specific reasons that you can share with us other than

12   a time delay that might affect their reasoning?

13      A.    Mad m Chair, Mr. Eberhart, I ' m going to turn it

14   over to our attorney on that one, because he was present

15   at the meeting.

16            MR. ROBERTSON:   Chairman Boucek and Mr. Eberhart,

17   I addressed your question, I believe before you may have

18   arrived yesterday, during my opening statement.

19            In our discussions with Salt River Project, which

20   we had during the month of December, and we met with them

21   once and we talked to their attorneys at two different

22   point in time.    SRP indicated that they might be willing

23   to consider a relocation of their line if it required only

24   an amendment to the Commission decision which approved the

25   routing, and not an amendment of the CEC itself or


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     requiring a new Certificate of Environmental

     Compatibility.   And the amendment to the decision would

     have to be in the nature of a tweaking, if you will, of

 4   the width of the corridor that had been approved to widen

 5   it enough to take it south of the County property line.

 6            But they also made it very clear, and I think

 7   looking at it from their perspective, that if Pinal County

 8   wanted to move it that direction, the ball was in our

 9   court to go out and build a base of support for that kind

10   of change, including no objections from any surrounding

11   property owners that might be impacted.

12            This was all during the month of December, and at

13   that point in time we knew this hearing was coming up and

14   we had testimony to be filed, and so we decided to focus

15   upon putting together a presentation that we would share

16   with you at this hearing.

17            But SRP made it very clear that they would be

18   willing to consider it as long as it did not require a new

19   CEC, an amendment to the CEC.     That it would only be a

20   Commission decision amending the earlier Commission

21   decision to widen the corridor to take it south of the

22   County fairgrounds.   And there that would be up to us

23   basically laying the groundwork so the Commission would

24   feel comfortable amending its decision.

25            MEMBER EBERHART:      One last question.     And thank


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 1   you very much for your patience with me.        I just - - that
 2   seems to be a real sticking point on the east/west

 3   alignment.

 4            Have you approached the Corporation Commission

 5   Staff to see what would be involved if that would be

 6   possible to get that tweaked it?

 7            MR. ROBERTSON:    No, Chairman Boucek,

 8   Mr. Eberhart, we have not thus far.       I do quite a bit of

 9   Siting Committee work and Commission work, so I know what

10   the legal requirements are and the distinction between

11   amending a Commission decision versus amending a CEC.          So
12   based on that background, at least from a legal procedural

13   standpoint, I thought I knew the answers.

14            But the specific answer to your specific question

15   is, no, we have not talked with the Staff thus far.

16            MEMBER EBERHART:      I thought I was done, but I'll

17   follow up with one last question.       If you think you know

18   the legal answer, could you share it with us as far as

19   what would be required?

20            MR. ROBERTSON:    Oh, in my professional opinion,

21   it's a matter of degree really driven by the surrounding

22   factual circumstances.    To put it in legal terms, would

23   the distance involved in moving S R P ' s corridor, or

24   widening i t to get south of the County fairgrounds to be

25   wide enough to accommodate both SRP and APS in parallel


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 1   alignment south of the County fairgrounds, be what is

     called substantial under the Siting Committee statute,

     which unfortunately is not a defined term.           It's defined

     by the surrounding facts in a given case.

 J            If the answer is no, then I think the Commission

 6   could amend its decision.      It could do it on the basis of

 7   either a short evidentiary hearing before the Commission

 8   as opposed to the Siting Committee itself, although it

 9   might convene the Siting Committee as an administrative

10   law judge.   Or the Commission could do it on the basis of

11   documentation if surrounding parties and property owners

12   did not object and that was confirmed.

13            If it conversely becomes substantial, then I

14   think you move under the Siting Committee statute and you

15   need to amend the CEC or perhaps even get a new CEC.

16            MEMBER EBERHART:      Thank you very much.          That's

17   been very helpful.

18            CHMN. BOUCEK:     Yes, Mr. Smith.

19            MEMBER SMITH:     Mr. Robertson, I don't know if

20   it's even possible, but if the Committee felt that this

21   might have any bearing or help, if that happens to be the

22   route, the alternative route - - or the hybrid route and

23   the one that is south of the fairgrounds.

24            If we made any kind of motion, would that be any

25   help to you in pursuing the joint alignments on both


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 1   lines?   I ' m not even sure if the Committee would do it,

 2   but I ' m just asking the question if that would have any

 3   bearing on moving forward.

 4            MR. ROBERTSON:        Chairman Boucek, Mr. Smith, when

 5   you say that and you refer to a motion, do you mean in

 6   terms of our discussions with Salt River Project?

 7            MEMBER SMITH:     Well, both Salt River Project and

 8   its - - well, with the Commission.

 9            MR. ROBERTSON:        I think as a practical matter it

10   can't hurt.    If we look at it in the real world, and I

11   don't know whether the Committee has jurisdiction, if you

12   will, to take that kind of initiative, but the parties are

13   mindful of the jurisdiction that both the Commission and

14   the Siting Committee have over their ongoing operations.

15             If I were in there shoes and such a motion should

16   occur, I would give it serious consideration and

17   intention.    I don't know whether it would occasion me, if

18   I were SRP, to ultimately say yes, nor would I presume to

19   speak for APS on that point.       But from my perspective, in

20   the real world I think such a motion would certainly be

21   looked at seriously.

22            MEMBER SMITH:     Thank you.     I just see this as

23   another impact that we didn't know when we approved it

24   originally.   That, you know, one impacts the other, or not

25   impacts, but possibly effects the other.         That if we could


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     make two one, it would be better.            But anyway, it was just

     a thought.

                  Thank you.

                  CHMN. BOUCEK:     Mr. Smith, I appreciate your

     comment about we have not discussed this among the

     Committee members yet, because I think that is something

 7   that would have to be discussed in an Open Meeting with

 8   the Committee.      And I think that the Committee would, you

 9   know, need to be mindful of the integrity of the line

10   siting process and the statutory framework under which we

11   operate, but we can leave that to a later date.

12                MEMBER SMITH:     That's why you're an attorney and

13   I ' m not.

14                CHMN. BOUCEK:     Thank you very much.

15                All right.     Any other questions from the

16   Committee?

17                MEMBER WONG:     Yes.

18                CHMN. BOUCEK:     Mr. Wong.

19                MEMBER WONG:     Thank y o u , Madam Chair.

20                Just for the record, I worked with Mr. Gonzalez

21   when he was with the City of Phoenix as a housing

22   department director and in my capacity as a board member

23   of the City of Phoenix industrial development council on
24   issues of bonds for projects, including affordable

25   housing.      So just want to put that on the record, and I


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 1   don't think that will impact my objectivity in this case.

 2   Just wanted to state that for the record.

 3

 4                               EXAM INATION

 5

 6       Q.       (BY MEMBER WONG)    Mr. Gonzalez, I wanted to talk

 7   about   --   or ask you about the broader question and learn

 8   about the process.      You spent some time talking about

9    Pinal County's approach to growth.         You talked about the

10   growth up to the year 2050.        You talked about

11   transportation infrastructure planning, the summit of the

12   regional governments in this area.         You talked about

13   health and human services, regional planning, of course,

14   then, the fairgrounds specifically.

15                But when you talk about - - is there regional

16   planning with regard to transmission and power plants

17   siting more specifically that's part of the

18   infrastructure?      What is the strategy?

19                I ' m sure you won't be - - this will not be the
20   case of first impression, nor will it be the last.          Will

21   you address that?

22       A.       Chairman Boucek, Mr. Wong, I believe the CATS

23   that APS and some other presenters earlier made is

24   actually the Committee that actually looks at transmission

25   lines, and I believe that's for the County.           So I believe


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     that's the mechanism that we are part of to look at

     transmission lines.    So it's already in existence, and

     that's my understanding.        I don't believe that there's any

     other efforts other than working with SRP on issues that

     come up ongoing.

               We have a very good working relationship with not

 7   only SRP, but with APS.        So I believe the CATS is the

 8   mechanism that is in place now to look at those kinds of

 9   issues.   And if anybody can add to that, because I ' m not

10   real familiar with that, to be real honest with you, other

11   than that I had heard about i t , and from what I gathered

12   at the meeting today and yesterday.

13       Q.    Because in this particular instance under your

14   managerial portfolio you had the fairgrounds, you were not

15   aware of the CATS - - Pinal County's involvement in the

16   CATS system; is that correct?

17       A.    That's correct.      That falls under another

18   assistant county manager, Ken Buchanan, who is actually

19   responsible for all of the infrastructure that is held,

20   that we work on countywide.

21       Q.    Were you in discussions with your colleague in

22   charge of the CATS participation about the fairgrounds

23   issue?

24       A.    Yes.   Yes, and Mr. Buchanan has been at some of

25   the meetings that we have had internally as well as with


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     1   the APS.       So he has been part of that, yes.          He's been

     2   part of all of the deliberations that we've had recently

     3   on this issue.

     4         Q.      How is it that Pinal County and you came to

     5   this - - you came to this issue at this date, this

     6   juncture?       Could this have been addressed early on in the

     7   CATS network?

     8         A.      Chairman Boucek, Mr. Wong, I think I mentioned

     9   earlier in my testimony that the first time we had heard

    10   that APS was using the preferred route along the SRP line

    11   was on November 2 1 .       That was the first time that as a

    12   county we were notified that APS was going to be using the

0   13   preferred route, and that's the first time we heard about

    14   it.    So that was November 2 1 ,     2007.

    15                 So up to then in any meetings that any county

    16   employees that I ' m aware of went to, that was never

    17   discussed.        Ken Buchanan attended several of the planning

    18   meetings that were discussed earlier.            And I checked with

    19   him and he told me that they were not           --   the preferred
    20   route was never discussed.          They just talked about the

    21   corridor, nothing specific.

    22         Q.      Separate and apart from the application before us

    23   today, is there a process underway or will there be a

    24   process in your county, in Pinal County, to address, as

    25   part of the growth issues and growth management in your


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 1   county, addressing transmission line siting and power

 2   plant siting far in advance so that you can avert these

 3   type of - - I was going to say last minute, but short

 4   notice issues to the County?

 5       A.      Chairman Boucek, Mr. Wong, yes.        We actually are

 6   implementing some - - we are taking some steps to alleviate
 7   that situation ever occurring again.

 8               MEMBER WONG:    Thank you.

 9               CHMN. BOUCEK:    Any other questions by Committee

10   members ?

11               (No response.)

12               CHMN. BOUCEK:    Mr. Campbell, I ' m sorry.    Did I

13   give you a chance?

14               MR. CAMPBELL:    We hadn't gone through cross.         I

15   didn't know if Mr. Hains had.         I have a few questions when

16   the Committee is done or when Mr. Hains is done.

17               CHMN. BOUCEK:     Okay.

18               MR. CAMPBELL:    And Mr. Rich.

19               CHMN. BOUCEK:     I ' m sorry.   Mr. Rich.

20

21                          CROSS-EXAMINATION

22

23       Q.      (BY MEMBER RICH)     Good afternoon.

24       A.      Good afternoon.

25       Q.      Has the County received a lot of public input


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     with regard to the north/south portion of the alignment?

         A.     Mr. Rich, as far as I know, no, we have not.

         Q.     Are you aware of anyone in the County that has a

 4   preference one way or another as to which of the preferred

 5   or the alternate routes are selected along the north/south

 6   portion other than the Roberts family that was here today

 7   to testify?

 8      A.      No.    Other than the couple that was here

 9   yesterday, no.      That's as far as we've heard anybody

10   concerned about the north/south.

11       Q.     Isn't it true that the hybrid alignment itself

12   was created as a result of the preference of the Roberts

13   family?

14      A.      That's correct.

15       Q.     So it's safe to say the Supervisors are aware of

16   the Roberts family's position and have directed you to

17   come here today and propose an alignment that's consistent

18   with their wishes?

19       A.     Yes.

20       Q.     And as far as the north/south alignments are

21   concerned north of the corridor area, the County has had

22   no objection whatsoever to the Curry Road alignment;

23   correct?

24       A.     That's my understanding, that's correct, yes.

25              MR. RICH:    That's all the questions I have.


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 1   Thank you.

 2            CHMN. BOUCEK:    Thank you, Mr. Rich.

 3            Mr. Hains.

 4            MR. HAINS:   Thank you.

 5

 6                         CROSS-EXAMINATION

 7

 8       Q.   (BY MR. HAINS)   Hello, Mr. Gonzalez.

 9      A.    Hello, Mr. Hains.

10       Q.   I only have one question for you.

11            Since we started this process, I believe we began

12   with just the preferred alignment, the alternative

13   alignment, and what Mr. Robertson has suggested as the

14   hybrid between the two.

15            I have also heard mention just in the last couple

16   of hours of also a modified preferred and a modified

17   alternate.   I don't know if that got mentioned in the

18   testimony, but if either you or maybe Mr. Robertson could

19   explain what those routes are at this point.

20       A.   I'll let Mr. Robertson.

21            MR. ROBERTSON:   They both     --   let's take the

22   modification once you get to the southern corridor area.

23   If you're using the preferred route, you would extend the

24   preferred route on Curry Road further south beyond the

25   half section line between Florence Boulevard and Earley


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             Road to some point north of Earley Road and south of the

             Pinal County Fairgrounds property.       And starting on Curry

             Road, you would extend a straight line from a west

             direction to the east all of the way over to 11 Mile

             Corner, and then continue up 11 Mile Corner Road to Pinal

             South.   That would be the modified preferred, which

         7   Mr. Gonzalez has indicated the County could also support.

         8             The modified alternate would be to take APS's

         9   alternate route and, once you move in a southerly

        10   direction into the southern corridor and you get somewhere

        11   on the alternate route that would be south of the south

        12   boundary of the Pinal County Fairgrounds and north of

        13   Earley Road, you would at that point then move in a west

        14   to east direction in a straight line over to 11 Mile

        15   Corner Road and then up to Pinal South.

        16            And the purpose of both the modified preferred

        17   and the modified alternate route would be to avoid being

        18   directly on Earley Road in the vicinity of the Tierra

        19   Grande homeowners, and at the same time being south of the

        20   Pinal County Fairgrounds.

        21             MR. HAINS:   Okay.   So they are identical except
        22   how they come down the north/south route?

        23            MR. ROBERTSON:   That is correct.      And

I       24   Mr. Gonzalez also indicated this afternoon that the County

    a   25   supports the modified alternate route.


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 1               MR. HAINS:   Thank you.

 2               CHMN. BOUCEK:     Is that all the questions?

 3               MR. HAINS:   That was all.    Thank you.

 4               CHMN. BOUCEK:   Mr. Campbell.

 5               MR. CAMPBELL:     Thank you, Chairman Boucek.

 6

 7                            CROSS-EXAMINATION

 8

 9       Q.      (BY MR. CAMPBELL)     Mr. Gonzalez, good afternoon.

10       A.      Good afternoon.

11       Q.      I'll be very brief.     You've been there a long

12   time .

13               I was very impressed with all of the slides

14   talking about the growth in Pinal County.        It's fair to

15   say, I guess, from that, that Pinal County is fast growing

16   and will be continue to be fast growing for the

17   foreseeable future.      Would you agree with that?

18       A.      That's correct.

19       Q.      And as a result of that, would you also agree

20   that additional electric infrastructure such as the

21   transmission line being proposed in this case are going to

22   be necessary for Pinal County?

23       A.      That's correct, yes.

24       Q.      And I wanted to talk with y o u a little bit about

25   this corridor and make sure I understood the County's


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 1   position.

 2               Is it fair to say - - and Chairman Boucek asked,

 3   and my question is a little different, and I'll clarify it

 4   to make sure - - I ' m not trying to be tricky.

 5               Is it fair to say that the County is fine with
 6   APS having flexibility within the 3,000-foot corridor

 7   providing they stay out of the Pinal fairgrounds?

 8       A.   That's correct.

 9       Q.   And let me give you an example so I ' m not - -

10   because there was some conversation and a question from

11   the Chairman about south of the fairgrounds.

12            For instance, what if it turns out that after

13   dealing with land acquisition and construction issues and

14   those sorts of things, we come down Curry Road, go this

15   way, and then come down and then go across south of the

16   fairgrounds, or go this way and then come down?         In other

17   words, w e ' l l miss the fairgrounds, but we might be in the

18   northern part of that corridor for part of the way.

19            And the reason I wanted to clarify that is I

20   think the Chairman's question talked about the southern - -

21   the corridor to the south of the fairgrounds, and I wanted

22   to make sure that we were okay.       Because I know you

23   supported the alternate route, for instance, that as long

24   as we stay out of the fairgrounds, we might be up here and

25   then cut down.     In other words, we can have that much


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     flexibility in dealing with the landowners.

                 I just wondered if that was okay with the County.

        A.      That's correct.

         Q.     Okay.    Thanks.     And could I go to the slide.

 5   It's this slide where there's a hard version on the        --

 6   okay.    I think that's it.

7               Mr. Gonzalez, is the half section line right here

 8   at the top of this blue?        Is that where the half section

9    line is?

10      A.      There's a pole, and I don't know if I can - -

11       Q.     It's a mid-section line.      Is that the mid-section

12   line right at the top of the blue, dividing the blue and

13   the top pink, so to speak.

14      A.      Yes, that's correct.

15       Q.     Okay.    So you understand that while there's      --   it
16   shows that APS 130-foot right-of-way here north of the

17   mid-section line, APS isn't asking for that and that's not

18   in the notice that was given for this case?

19       A.     Right.   And I believe that it could either go

20   north or south in discussions that we've had with APS

21   Staff.     So that's why we depicted it in this manner.
22       Q.     Now, I wanted to make sure that you understood

23   that this alignment     --    this right-of-way actually isn't in

24   the application or the notice.

25              The other question that I had here, this is SRP


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     is 1 3 0 feet and then APS is 1 3 0 feet?   Am I reading your

     legend right?

         A.     That's correct.

 4       Q.     So from the mid - - the half section line i t ' s 2 6 0

 5   feet from there to where you show the edge; is that

 6   correct?

 7       A.     That's correct.

 8       Q.     And were you here for Mr. Robertson's opening

 9   when he talked about a question that he asked me and

10   information I provided him that if SRP and APS shared a

11   right-of-way that it would, rather than be 2 6 0 feet, would

12   actually be 2 0 5 feet.

13              Do you remember that?
14       A.     Yes, I do.   And we weren't able to change this

15   slide by then.

16       Q.     So you would agree that if you shared the

17   right-of-way, that actually the bottom of this would

18   probably be up, what, 5 5 feet to the north?

19       A.     Yes, that's what I understand.

20       Q.     And you also understand that in rights-of-way the

21   lines, even the wires aren't necessarily right on the edge

22   of the right-of-way.      There's a little buffer from where

23   the line is and where the right-of-way ends?

24       A.     Yes.

25       Q.     Okay.   And if the Siting Committee after


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 1   listening to the evidence still decided they wanted APS to

 2   go here by SRP   --   which is just an assumption, we

 3   understand that's not your preference - - but if they did,

 4   it would be true that APS would have to get a right-of-way

 5   or an easement from the County, would it not?

 6       A.   That's correct.

 7       Q.   And do you know if the County would be willing to

 8   give APS a right-of-way or easement if the Siting

9    Committee approved a line through the fairgrounds?

10       A.   I need to talk to Larry a bit about that.

11            MR. ROBERTSON:      I was debating whether or not,

12   Chairman Boucek, to interpose an objection, because I

13   think that's getting awfully close to the attorney-client

14   privilege.

15            MR. CAMPBELL:     Well, it's a borderline question,

16   I agree, and let me tell you why I ask it.       And I don't

17   want to pin him down and put him in an uncomfortable

18   position to answer.     Maybe he doesn't know.    That's part

19   of a public process.

20       Q.   (BY MR. CAMPBELL)      I want you to understand,

21   Mr. Gonzalez, and see if you would agree with me that

22   because Pinal County has the capacity to grant or deny

23   right-of-way, it makes sense for APS's application to have

24   the flexibility of this entire corridor.

25            Would that make sense to you?


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1        A.     Yes.

2        Q.     Okay.   Without asking you what they would do, I

3    just wanted to clarify that.

4               Now, I wanted to clarify one other point.       You

5    said that the first time the County learned of the

 6   preferred route was November 21 in a meeting; is that

 7   correct?

 8       A.     That's correct.

 9       Q.     Now, are you aware of the fact that what is

10   called the preferred route was actually one of the

11   alternative routes that was described in open houses and

12   stakeholder meetings and newsletters well before

13   November 21?

14       A.     I saw it in the maps that I recently saw, yes.

15       Q.     That actually there were meetings with Pinal

16   County where that was identified as a route.         Although we

17   hadn't given it the name preferred route, it was just one

18   of the many alternatives we studied?

19       A.     Mr. Campbell, that's correct.        But when we asked

20   APS staff, they would never say that that was their

21   preferred route.

22       Q.     I understand.   And Mr. Gonzalez, do you

23   understand that the reason for that is that you go through

24   a public process to get input, and it's only at the end of

25   that process that you actually select a route and give it


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         1   the name preferred - -
I
         2       A.      That's correct.

         3       Q.      --    or alternative?   And so I just wanted to make

         4   sure the record was clear that the process included

         5   discussions with the County prior to November 21 that at

         6   least included this route, although it didn't call it

         7   preferred.

         8              Would you agree with that?

         9       A.     That's correct, yes.

        10             MR. CAMPBELL:       That's the end of my questions for

        11   Mr. Gonzalez.        I appreciate his presentation.

        12               I did want to provide the Committee with a piece

        13   of information.       You asked the question about the SRP

        14   application and what it said.         I wasn't involved in that
        15   case, but one of our witnesses was.

        16             And the actual CEC application that was filed in

        17   that case, the preferred route, according to the witness,

        18   was through the fairgrounds, and the alternative route was

        19   through   --     was Earley Road.   So those were the two choices

        20   that the Committee - - and maybe Mr. Smith or somebody

        21   remembers that from the case, but that was her
    I   22   recollection.

        23               I personally don't know, but I thought I would

        24   share that with you because it was relating to your

        25   question.        And then, of course, in that application the


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 1   major new substation was put in the application as being

2    across the street from the fairgrounds.

 3            That's all I have.       Thank you, Chairman.

 4            CHMN. BOUCEK:    Thank you, Mr. Campbell.

 5            Any other questions for this witness from the

 6   Committee?

 7            (No response.)

 8            CHMN. BOUCEK:    Okay.    Would you like to redirect,

 9   Mr. Robertson?

10            MR. ROBERTSON:   Yes, I do have some, and I'll

11   actually start with the last point that Mr. Campbell

12   mentioned, referring to a witness from the earlier case.

13            What I related to you as my understanding of why

14   Pinal County did not intervene in Case No. 126, which is

15   the SRP line case, was what was provided to me, because I

16   did pose that specific inquiry.

17            I was not involved in the Area B part of that

18   case, which is what this area relates to, so I have no

19   independent recollection of what was shown as the

20   preferred route in that case.

21            CHMN. BOUCEK:    That's fine.     Thank you.

22

23                       REDIRECT EXAMINATION

24

25       Q.   (BY MR. ROBERTSON)       Mr. Gonzalez, Mr. Campbell


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     asked you - - and I ' m directing your attention to the

     slides shown on the left-hand side of the screen.        He

     directed your attention to that slide, and he pointed out

     that the pink area shown for the APS line would be less

     wide if we assumed that the joint right-of-way needed

     between SRP and APS was 205 feet as opposed to 260.

 7               Do you recall that line of questioning?

 8       A.      Yes, I do.

 9       Q.      Would shrinking that from 205 feet   --   or from

10   260 feet to 205 feet alter materially the concerns that

11   you have testified to today about the adverse impact upon

12   the Pinal County Fairgrounds and activities conducted

13   there?

14       A.      No.

15       Q.      Mr. Eberhart inquired as to possibly the ability

16   to relocate the Pinal County Fairgrounds, and you

17   indicated a desire on the part of the County to keep it in

18   its current location.

19               Is a major consideration there that the current

20   location is a central location within Pinal County?

21       A.      That is correct.

22       Q.      So it makes it relatively equally accessible to

23   residents throughout the County; is that correct?

24       A.      That's correct.

25       9.      Okay.   And Mr. Smith inquired as to whether or


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 1   not the presence of a power line running through the

 2   middle of the County property, as well as one to the

 3   south, might not create visual problems.

 4            Is the County's concern one of a visual nature,

 5   or is it more one of space utilization and the impact on

 6   its ability to use space and safety considerations?

 7      A.    I t ' s a space utilization of our fairgrounds.

 8       Q.   Are safety considerations also a factor with

9    regard to the RV camping?

10      A.    Absolutely.

11       Q.   Now, in the application in Section 4.2.3.4, the

12   statement is made:   The minimum height of 2 3 0 k V conductor

13   above existing grade will be 25 feet 6 inches.

14            Do you know the height of some of the RV units

15   that come in there and park in the area for several days?

16      A.    I don't know what a standard RV would be, but

17   maybe Terry could.

18       Q.   Would you anticipate it would be 10 feet or more

19   in height?

20      A.    I could say so.    Maybe 10 max.

21       Q.   And these RV parking areas, including the areas

22   where the SRP line would go through and the APS, are areas

23   that people actually camp with their RVs for several days;

24   is that correct?

25      A.    That's correct.


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 1       Q.     As well as the various venue uses that are made

 2   of those areas at different times of the year; is that

 3   correct?

 4       A.     That's correct.

 5              Let me just add that I know that we do have semis

 6   that come through there with        --    fully loaded semis that
 7   come through, especially when they set up for the fair.

 8   And we do have the big rigs coming through there with the

 9   big cabs and everything, so I just wanted to add that.

10              MR. ROBERTSON:    May I have just a moment,

11   Chairman Boucek, to confer with Mr. Haifley?

12              CHMN. BOUCEK:    Yes.

13              MR. ROBERTSON:    Chairman Boucek, that's all the

14   redirect that I have of Mr. Gonzalez.

15              And at this time, before I forget, I would like

16   to move the admission into evidence of Pinal County

17   Exhibits 1 through 4.

18              CHMN. BOUCEK:    Okay.        Any objections to the

19   introduction of those exhibit?

20              MR. CAMPBELL:    No objection.

21              CHMN. BOUCEK:    Pinal County's Exhibits 1 through

22   4 are hereby admitted into evidence.

23              (Exhibit Nos. Pinal-1, Pinal-2, Pinal-3, and

24   Pinal-4 were received into evidence.)

25              MR. ROBERTSON:    Depending on whether there's any


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 1   recross or further Committee questions, Mr. Terry Haifley

 2   is here, and we would be happy to make him available for

 3   any questions that members of the Committee might have.

4                CHMN. BOUCEK:    Yes, could we have some testimony

 5   from him?

 6               MR. ROBERTSON:   Yes.

 7               CHMN. BOUCEK:    Thank you very much, Mr. Gonzalez.

 8

9                              TERRY HAIFLEY,

10   called as a witness on behalf of Pinal County, having been

11   first duly sworn by the Certified Reporter to speak the

12   truth and nothing but the truth, was examined and

13   testified as follows:

14

15                           DIRECT EXAMINATION

16

17       Q.      (BY MR. ROBERTSON)   Would you please state your

18   name for the record, please.

19       A.      Terry Haifley.

20       Q.   Mr. Haifley, are you employed by Pinal County?

21      A.       Yes, sir.

22       Q.      In what capacity?

23       A.      I ' m the Parks and Recreation and Fairgrounds

24   Director.

25       Q.   And how long have you been employed in that


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     capacity?
         A.    20 years.

         Q.    Would it be reasonable to say that you have a

     general as well as detailed knowledge of the operations in

     the Pinal County Fairgrounds throughout that 20-year

     period?

         A.    Pretty much so, yes.

         Q.    As well as its future plans?

         A.    Yes, sir.

10       Q.    Now, your appearance in this hearing this

11   afternoon comes about as a result of Mr. Gonzalez

12   previously having referred to a conversation, or

13   conversations or feedback that you may have had with

14   regard to the attitude of people that live in Tierra

15   Grande towards the APS power line that has been proposed.

16             Against that general background, I would just ask

17   you to describe for the members of the Siting Committee

18   any information that you have in that nature based on your

19   own personal knowledge.

20       A.    There are several residents that I ' m pretty well

21   acquainted with seeing how we have a racetrack at the

22   fairgrounds.   And when APS decided to come through our

23   property, I had actually had discussions with several of

24   them about if it was moved further south, closer to them,

25   seeing how they weren't represented at any meeting, would


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 1   it be a problem to them?

 2            One of them stated the old theory of not in my

 3   backyard, but what he was talking about was right on the

 4   canal bank.   I have mentioned to him the property in

 5   between the canal and the southern area of our boundary

 6   line, and he said he had no problem with it.

 7            Several other people in the area said, you know,

 8   that's far enough away.    There actually is a buffer there

9    with the canal and the mesquites, so sight line, eye level

10   is not affected visually up in the areas.       But we live

11   right across the street from a substation, so w e ' r e all

12   pretty sure of what we see over there.

13            I won't say there was a lot of people.       I mean, I

14   have talked to different ones.    I could name several of

15   them personally.   The one that probably lives the closest

16   to the canal is the one that I talked to, because he's

17   probably the most vocal of any wrongdoings at the

18   fairgrounds or noise.   And so I've got a very good

19   understanding of him.

20            And so to say I talked to all of them, no.

21   Several of them, yes.   And at this point I ' v e had no one

22   say that there would be a problem moving closer to them,

23   away from the middle of the fairgrounds, because they all

24   are pretty active in a lot of the events that we have at

25   the fairgrounds and understand the problem it's going to


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 1   create.

 2               MR. ROBERTSON:      Thank you.   Chairman Boucek,

 3   Mr. Haifley is available for any follow-up questions that

 4   you or any of the members of the Committee might have.

                 CHMN. BOUCEK:    Any questions from members of the

     Committee?

                 MEMBER RICH:     I guess just a quick question.

 8

 9                                EXAMINATION

10

11       Q.       (BY MEMBER RICH)      Is that golf course a public

12   course there?

13       A.      Yes, it is, ma'am.

14       Q.      Any of these folks you talked to happen to be on

15   the homeowners association board or have any leadership

16   role in the neighborhood?

17       A.       I ' m not sure what role their HOA would be at that

18   point.      It's a pretty - - it's not real active.       The one

19   person that I talked to is as much a leader in that

20   community as anyone.

21               MR. CAMPBELL:    Are you able to share their name

22   with us?

23               THE WITNESS:    Yes.     It would be Thomas

24   Hollenback.

25               MEMBER RICH:    Thank you.


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              CHMN. BOUCEK:   Mr. Wong.

              MEMBER WONG:    Thank you.



                              EXAMINATION



 6       Q.   (BY MEMBER WONG)      Similar to the line of

 7   questions that was asked to Mr. Roberts and his family on

 8   the private farmland, I think it was one of the attorneys,

 9   Mr. Robertson, maybe you asked.

10            Sir, is it Mr. Haisley?

11      A.    Haifley.

12       Q.   Mr. Haifley, is there any plans for Pinal County

13   to sell the fairgrounds?

14      A.    Not as long as I ' m there.
15       Q.   Has there been any discussion about plans to sell

16   the fairgrounds?

17       A.   Approximately 10 years ago a group come in

18   wanting to purchase the racetrack and the extended

19   farmland, and they were told no by the administration.

20       Q.   Has there been any discussion among the Board of

21   Supervisors about a different use or sale of the

22   fairgrounds?

23       A.   Never, sir.

24            MEMBER WONG:    Thank you.

25            CHMN. BOUCEK:   Any other Committee members have


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 1   questions?

 2             (No response.)

 3            CHMN. BOUCEK:     Any questions from intervenors or

 4   the Applicant?

 5            MR. CAMPBELL:     No.

 6            CHMN. BOUCEK:     Okay.

 7            MR. ROBERTSON:     Chairman Boucek, that concludes

 8   Pinal County's presentation.

 9            CHMN. BOUCEK:     Thank you very much,

10   Mr. Robertson.

11            MR. ROBERTSON:     Thank you.

12            CHMN. BOUCEK:     At this point, as I said, I think

13   that we will save the Commission Staff presentation until

14   our next meeting date.

15            I have polled the members of the Committee, and

16   it appears that February 11, 2008 and February 12, 2008

17   will work for members of the Committee.         So that will be

18   the dates that we will reconvene to continue.

19            Mr. Campbell.

20            MR. CAMPBELL:     Chairman Boucek, on that score, we

21   have been able to reserve space and a room for hearing at

22   the Buttes Hotel, which is right there on the Broadway

23   curve, so to speak.   So that's where it will be.       We can

24   work together on a notice.

25            CHMN. BOUCEK:     Technically that's Tempe, or is it


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 1   Phoenix?    I don't know, but - -

 2              MR. CAMPBELL:    I think i t ' s technically Tempe.

 3              CHMN. BOUCEK:    All right.   Okay.   So yes, and

 4   we'll be sending out   --   issuing a notice.    We'll also be

 5   scheduling a procedural conference for the attorneys in

 6   the interim as well to work out some details on production

 7   of documents, so you'll be receiving notice of that.

 8              Are there any other matters before we adjourn?

 9              Mr. Eberhart.

10              MEMBER EBERHART:    Madam Chair, I just was looking

11   at this graphic and had one question for the applicant for

12   the next meeting.

13              One thought I was having was how we were going to

14   get across 11 Mile Road and connect into the substation no

15   matter where the alignment is, and I wonder if APS could

16   maybe provide a graphic on how that was going to happen.

17   Because it looks like you have to get up over the 115kV

18   lines and into the substation.

19              I just didn't - - we haven't really looked at

20   anything east of 11 Mile Road, and so I was hoping we

21   could maybe have a graphic to look at that.

22              MR. CAMPBELL:    I understand your question,

23   Chairman, and Mr. Eberhart.      We can have somebody prepared

24   to talk about how there is ways you can enter into the new

25   switchyard, which is really what the question is.        To a


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 1   certain extent SRP is, I think, maybe still designing that

2    switchyard, so it may be kind of preliminary, but we'll do

 3   the best we can.

 4              MEMBER EBERHART:      Well, I guess just to clarify,

 5   what I was concerned about, not only getting up over or

 6   under the power lines was also at some point, if they go

 7   on the preferred alignment, it looks like a straight shot

 8   into the substation.       If anywhere else, say, below the

9    fairgrounds, it looks like then you have to come back up

10   north.    And so I wanted some kind of graphic to look at

11   that.

12              MR. CAMPBELL:    All right.    I understand.

13              CHMN. BOUCEK:    Mr. Haenichen.

14              MEMBER HAENICHEN:     Thank you.

15              On behalf of myself and my colleagues on the

16   Committee, I wanted to thank and congratulate Chairman

17   Boucek on the excellent job she's done stepping into a

18   very difficult situation on extremely short notice.           So

19   thank you very much.

20              I would just like to make a few final comments

21   for the day, which I'll direct them primarily to

22   Mr. Campbell.    I hope he takes them in the cooperative

23   spirit in which I offer them.

24              First of all, Mr. Campbell and all of the

25   witnesses that he's called, plus the County people and the


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 1   rest of them, have done their normal excellent job helping

 2   us to understand a very complex case, and we're

 3   appreciative of that.

 4            At the very beginning of the proceedings, I

 5   experienced some frustration and disappointment, actually,

 6   in the following way.    I had hoped that perhaps the

 7   Applicant would begin by explaining the status quo.         In

 8   other words, the existing condition, the generating

 9   station, the transmission lines that served it, what the

10   pluses and minuses were on that, and what they had done,

11   if anything, to try to ameliorate those deficiencies that

12   they found existed to see if they could continue to use

13   the present configuration and make it work.

14            I was a little bit surprised at some of the

15   witnesses of the company, APS, that they didn't know basic

16   things like the capacity of the transmission lines going

17   out of the plant, and the nature of the current

18   320-megawatt firm transmission commitment with the Western

19   Area Power Administration.     It just left me with the

20   impression that there was no interest whatsoever on even

21   exploring that avenue.

22            And I ' m not, by the way, suggesting that that's a
23   proper avenue and one that even stands a chance against

24   the other options that have been offered.

25            So I would hope that in the future maybe starting


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     out with an expos6 on the existing condition, what the

     foibles of it are and what attempts have been made to

     improve those conditions would be very helpful and would

 4   better serve both the Applicant and this Committee.

 5            And just finally, which is almost a corollary

 6   comment to the ones that I just made, I think the

 7   Applicant should avoid using very generalized terms like

 8   increased reliability and lower cost without any

 9   justification or any backup or any calculations.

10   Quantitative information.      How much better reliability?

11   How much lower cost?    Specifically referring to the

12   charges that the company has been paying the Western Area

13   Power Administration.

14            Because if, in fact, those charges are draconian

15   and very difficult to use as a business proposition, I

16   think that something should be done about it.       I think

17   they should be at least informed that they're out of line

18   with their charges.    And I don't know if that's the

19   position of the company, but I do know that lots of

20   utilities, including ED-2 testified here today, use

21   transmission lines owned by the Western Power

22   Administration all of the time.

23            So those remarks are just intended to maybe try

24   to frame some of the future discussions we'll have, and I

25   thank you very much.


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 1               MR. CAMPBELL:    Thank you, Madam Chair,

 2   Mr. Haenichen.     We will take note of those and appreciate

 3   your input.

 4               MEMBER HAENICHEN:     Thank you.

 5               CHMN. BOUCEK:   Mr. Wong.

 6               MEMBER WONG:    Yes, thank you, Madam Chair.

 7               With regard to the Applicant, throughout the

 8   proceedings I had some questions, and I believe the

 9   response was either there would be an appropriate answer

10   at some juncture.      I think Mr. Bernosky was taking some

11   notes.     So if you would follow up on that, I would greatly

12   appreciate it.

13               And also, I had asked Mr. Gonzalez some questions

14   about when did Pinal County first learn about this routing

15   issue.     And he said, at least for him, he didn't hear

16   about it until the final calendar quarter of last year.

17               Let me pose to the Applicant, why wasn't Pinal

18   County informed as an affected party?          Could you address

19   that at this time?

20               MR. CAMPBELL:    Certainly.    Madam Chair, Committee

21   Member Wong, I think that Mr. Bernosky's testimony

22   actually did address that, although perhaps in a general

23   sense, and he may be able to return to it while I'm

24   speaking.

25               There were a series of stakeholder meetings


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 1   beginning in the summer to which the County was invited

 2   and I believe attended, both an initial one and then a

     secondary one.    And at those meetings, the various

 4   alternatives, including what is now the preferred route

 5   through the County fairgrounds, were discussed, were

 6   displayed, both in those meetings and at the open houses.

 7   So it's been part of the dialogue from the summer up

 8   through the public process.

 9             At the end of the public process, of course, is

10   when the applicant makes a determination as to what to

11   bring forward in the CEC, and that's - - that November 2 1

12   date is, I think, sounds to me like is when Mr. Gonzalez

13   was informed, okay, that's the decision of what is going

14   forth.    But there had been months of conversation with the

15   County.    They had not at all been kept in the dark.

16             And it's obvious to me from looking at the SRP

17   case that came in before, and then looking at the way this

18   case progressed from the summer into November, that this

19   became an issue of increasing concern to the County over

20   the last couple of years and over the last few months.

21   And now they have gotten to the point of intervening and

22   making their case clear, which we certainly appreciate.

23              It helps us a lot to know what their position is,

24   and that's why we asked for the corridor.          As you can

25   understand, once we get something approved, we have to


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     work with the landowners to get right-of-way and those

     sorts of things, so we need flexibility.        So the County

     has been part of the process.

              Now, it sounds like from looking at the list            --

     and correct me if I ' m wrong, Mr. Bernosky     --    that those

     early meetings did not include Mr. Gonzalez, did not

 7   include Mr. Robertson.   And so it may have simply been

 8   that the people going to those meetings were not the folks

 9   who ultimately became kind of the leaders on this issue,

10   but they were involved as early as anybody on the outside.

11            MEMBER WONG:    Thank you for the clarification.

12   And as I had a discussion with Mr. Gonzalez, I think he's

13   aware now that the County needs to improve their

14   communication among the different departments and among

15   and between the deputy managers and the manager's office.

16            One more point I would like to make is, as I was

17   asking a few questions of Mr. Rich's client, Mr. Roberts,

18   Jacob Roberts and his family, I just wanted to note that

19   in our efforts here as a very influential body of the

20   Arizona Corporation Commission and our regular dialogue

21   with companies like APS and others requesting line

22   sitings, I think we have to be mindful that the power of

23   government has a disproportionate, oftentimes a negative

24   impact on private property owners.       In this case, for

25   example, the Roberts family.


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                 And that it costs them financial resources and

     also time retaining counsel, at a minimum.         And then upon

     approval, if there's approval of an actual transmission

 4   line, you have issues like right-of-way negotiations,

     which takes time and resources from them operating their

     business, and in this case running their farm, which is

     their core business.      And then they probably have to

 8   retain experts valuation, ,what is the appropriate

 9   valuation negotiation, and hopefully not litigation.

10               So I just raise that because the influence of

11   government has a great impact on private property owners

12   and private business owners and family businesses.          So I

13   just ask everybody to be mindful of the impact.          Thank

14   you.

15               CHMN. BOUCEK:   Anybody else?

16               Yes, Mr. Rasmussen.

17               MEMBER RASMUSSEN:     I ' m mindful it's been a long

18   day and it's getting late in the afternoon, and I hesitate

19   to extend this much further.

20               But given the discussion about the north/south

21   routing on the Curry Road and the half a mile and quarter

22   mile discussion that preceded early this afternoon before

23   lunch, would it be possible in our reconvening to take a

24   look at the alternate routes, including the southern

25   routes in terms of almost a pro/con evaluation of impacts


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 1   on agriculture, on adjacent housing, on new planned unit

 2   developments approved by Pinal County, the like.

 3             And again, as we discussed, a lot of this can be

 4   subjective, but if we had best facts and figures available

     to you and the consultant, it helps us, I think, evaluate

     that in a more effective way than what maybe transpired

     today.   So I know there's a limited amount of time between

 8   now and the next meeting, but that would be at least

 9   helpful to me for sure.

10             MR. CAMPBELL:     Madam Chair and Mr. Rasmussen, I

11   sense the general concern along the same lines from, for

12   instance, Committee Member Rich.      And I think we just need

13   to work on something that's a little more graphic and

14   quantitative to the extent that you can be.      Obviously, as

15   I think all of you understand, there's a certain amount of

16   subjectivity in these judgments that just has to be

17   brought to bear, particularly in a case like this where

18   i t ' s fairly open land.

19             But we will do the best we can between now and

20   the 11th to do a better job of being clear and specific

21   and quantitative on that to help you with your decision.

22   W e ' v e heard that message from several of you, and we'll do

23   our best to come up with something.

24             MEMBER RASMUSSEN:    We appreciate that.

25             CHMN. BOUCEK:     Any other comments from the


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 1   Committee?

 2               (No response. )

 3              CHMN. BOUCEK:      All right.   Hearing no further
 4   comments, this meeting of the Power Plant and Transmission

 5   Line Siting Committee         s adjourned until February 11,
 6   2008.    Thank you.

 7              (The hearing adjourned at 5 : l O p.m.)

 8

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 1   STATE OF ARIZONA     )
                          )    ss.
 2   COUNTY OF MARICOPA   )

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7               I, MICHELE E. BALMER, Certified Reporter

 8   No. 50489 for the State of Arizona, do hereby certify that

 9   the foregoing printed pages constitute a full, true and

10   accurate transcript of the proceedings had in the

11   foregoing matter, all done to the best of my skill and

12   ability.

13

14              WITNESS my hand this 27th day of January, 2008.

15

1b

17

18

19
                              Certified Reporter
20                            Certificate No. 50489
21

22

23

24

25


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