Noam C homsky on Ana rchism, Marxism & Hope for the Future
may 1 995
Noam Chomsky i pol icy , and for ongo ing support s widely known hi s work as a ling for hi s cri tique of U .S fore ign uis t. Les s well known is hi s
for libertar ian soc iali st object ives. In a for Red and Black hi s views
spec ial in terview done 2, 1995 ], Chomsky gives and the
on an arc hi sm and M arxi sm,
Revolut ion [Is sue No .
prospect s fo r soc iali sm now . The interv iew w as
co nducted i n Ma y 19 95 b y K evi n Doyle .
RBR : Fir st of f, Noam, for ad vocate
quite
a time now you've been an iar with
for the anarchi st ide a. Many people are famil in 1970 to Danie l Guer in' s the f ilm
the int roduct ion you wrote
Anarch ism , but more recen tly , for ins tance in
Manufactu ring Conse nt , you took the
is it that attracts you to
opportu nity to high ligh t ist idea. What
ag ain the pote ntial of anarchi sm and the anarch an arch ism ?
CHOM SK Y: I w as a tt racted to anarchi as s oon as I beg an to thi nk about the narr ow range, and h aven't I
sm as a young teenager world beyond a pretty tho se
,
seen much reaso n to revise
early atti tudes sin ce.
think
it on ly ma kes sen se to seek out n
and ident ify s truc ture s of author ity , hierarchy , and dominatio in every aspect of li fe, and to chal lenge t hem; un les s a are illeg itimate, of human
ju sti ficat ion for them can be given, they shou ld be dismantled,
a nd
to in crease t he scope
freedom.
That i nclude s pol itical power , owner ship a nd man agement, re lation s among men and women, parents co ntro l over imperative and much and child ren, our b asi c moral
the fate o f fu ture g ene ration s (the envir onmental
b eh ind the
move men t, in my view), the huge
else. N atural ly th is m eans a chal lenge to
inst itut ion s o f coer cio n and cont rol : the state, the unacco untable private tyr an nie s that co ntro l mos t of the on. Bu t no t on ly
domest ic a nd in ternat ional economy , and so
the se. Th at is wh at I ha ve alwa ys under stood to be the es sence of anarch ism: the co nvict ion that the has to be placed on autho di sm ant led i f that burden burden rity , an d that cannot burden of proof
it s hou ld be S ometimes my the
b e met.
c an be m et. If I'm ta ki ng a walk with
grandch ildren and they dart out no t on ly author ity but
into a busy stree t, I will use The
also phys ical coer cio n to stop them. but I th ink it can readily meet the
act s hould be challenged, chal lenge. And the
re are othe r cases ; l ife is a complex affair ittle a bout humans
,
we under stand very l
an d s ociety , and gr and
pron ounceme nts are generally more
a s ource of harm t han of
benef it. Bu t the perspect ive is a valid one , I t hink, an d can lead us quite a lo ng w ay. which is
Beyond such generali ties , we be gi n to look at cases, where the ques tio ns of human
intere st a nd co ncern arise.
RBR : It's true to say that your more widely known than that your views
ideas and crit
ique are now be said nk your
ever before.
It shou ld also How do you thi
are widely respected.
support f or anarchi sm i s rece ived in
thi s con text? I n receive f rom
particu lar , I'm i ntere sted i n the respon se you people who
are g ett ing intere sted i n pol itic s f or the fi rst time s your views. Are s uch
and who ma y, p er ha ps, have come acros people s urpr ised by your intere sted? CHOM SK Y: The general i ass ociates and so ntel lectual support
for an arch ism? Are they
cult ure, as you know ,
' anarc hism' with chaos, vio lence , bombs, di srupt ion, n su rpri sed when I spea k
on. So people are ofte
pos itive ly of a narch ism a nd iden tify m yse lf with leading tradit ion s wit hin it. Bu t my impres si on i s that general pu bl ic, the basic a mong the
ide as seem reaso na ble when the rn to speci fic
cl ouds are cleared a matters
wa y. Of co urse , when we tu
-- say , the nature o f famil ies, or how a so ciety that is more free as it
a n eco nomy - - quest ion s cs si nk.
would work in
and just
and cont rover sy arise.
Bu t that is
shou ld be. Physi
can't re al ly ex plai n how water f
lows from t he tap in your
Whe n we tur n to v ast ly more complex signi ficance, ro om for under standing
questi ons of hum an is plenty of
is v ery thin , and there
disagreement,
ex per imentatio n, bot h in telle ctual and
real-li fe explorati on of pos sibi lit ies, to he lp us learn more. RBR : P erhaps, more than any othe r idea, an arc hi sm has
suffe red fr om the problem
of mi srepre sentati on. An arch ism c an you of ten find yourse lf y anarch ism? Does
mean m any t hing s to m any people. Do having to ex plai n what it
is that you mean b
the misrep resen tation
of a narch ism bot her you ? of i t can
CHOM SK Y: All mis represe ntatio n is a n uisance . Much be traced bac k to str uctu res of power that obvious
ha ve an in tere st i n reason s. It's w el l
prevent ing unde rstandi ng, fo r pretty to recall D avid Hume's
Princ iples of Government . He e xpres sed their rule rs. He the s ide of the but is
surpri se that co ncluded governed,
the gover nor s have noth ing to suppor t them government
that si nce, ` Force is al ways on
p eople ever submi tted to
opi nio n. 'Ti s the refo re, on opini on only that fo unded; a nd th is m axim extends to the
most d espo tic an d the mo st f ree and
mos t mil itary governmen
ts, as well as to
mos t popular .` Hume was very astute
- - an d i nciden tally ,
hardly
a liber tarian by the s
tand ard s of the da y. H e s urely
unde rest imates the
eff icacy of f orce, but hi s obse rv at ion seems p artic ularly in t he
to me b asical ly cor rect, an d impo rtant, more free s ocie ties , where the refo re far more of befuddlement the art of
cont rol li ng opin ion is
ref ined. Mi srepre sentati on and othe r fo rms concom itant. so does rotte n
are a natural
So does mi sreprese ntatio n bothe r me? Sure, but weather . engender I t wil l exist as long
as conce ntrati ons of po wer them. Since enough to know
a kind of commi ssar class to defend not v ery bright, or are bright
they are usually
that they'd better avoid the
arena of fact
a nd argument,
they' ll turn to mis represe ntatio n, vi lif icatio n, and othe r devices that a re av ai la ble to th ose who know that they' by the vario us m eans a vailable to ll b e prote cted
the powerfu l. W e sh ould t as best w e can.
unde rstand why all That's p art of the
thi s occ urs , and unravel i project
of liberatio n -- o f our selve s and working toget her to
ot hers , or more reaso na bly , of people achieve these ai ms .
Sounds
simple-minded,
a nd it is. Bu t I have yet to f
ind much
commentary minded, aw ay.
on human l ife an d s ociety
that i s not simple-
when absurdity
an d se lf -serv ing pos tur ing are cleared
RBR : H ow about in one might e xpect to
more es ta bl is hed left- wing circ les , where fi nd greater famil stands f or? Do you and support iarity wit h what encoun ter a ny su rpri se
anarchi sm actually here at your views CHOM SK Y:
for a narch ism? an b y "es ta bl is hed surpr ise a bout my a bout m y
If I under stand what you me is not to o much
le ft-wing ci rcle s," there
views on anarchi sm, because views on anyth ing. You'l l rarely
v ery litt le i s known
The se are not
the c ircle s I de al with. That's
find a re ference
to anyth ing I sa y o r write. Thu s i n the U S (but les s
no t complete ly true
of cour se.
common ly in the U K or elsewhe re) , you'd f ind s ome famil iarity wit h what I do i n certai n of the more crit ical and independen t
sec tor s of what might be called and I have perso the re. B ut have a see wh at I me an.
"establi shed le ft-wing c ircle s," s scatte red here an d
nal fr iends and associate lo ok at the books I don't
an d jo urnal s, and you'l l an d say to be
ex pect wh at I write
any more welcome
in these circ les than in
the facu lty cl ub or
edit orial bo ard ro om -- ag ain, with e xcepti on s. The questi on ari ses only m arginal ly, so much s o that to answer . RBR : A number 'l ibertarian of people h ave no ted that you use the term it's hard
social ist' in the same con you see these terms
text as you u
se the word
'anarchi sm'. Do
as esse ntial ly sim ilar? Is descript ion has
anarchi sm a type of so been u sed before wit h freedom. " CHOM SK Y:
ciali sm to you? The
that "anarch ism i s equivalen t to social ism Wou ld you a gree with thi s basic equ at ion? you r a
The int roduct ion to Guer in' s book that
ment ioned opens wit h a quote fr om an an arc his t sympathize cen tury ago, who sa ys that "anarch ism has
a broad b ack," and been wh at has I've tr ied to tres si ng
"endu res an yth ing." One m ajor element has tradit ional ly been called 'l explain the re and elsewhe that it's hardly or iginal; ibertarian re what I
soc ialism'.
m ean by that, s
I'm taking the
ideas fr om leading quote, and who
figure s in the anarchi st move men t whom I
rathe r con si sten tly desc ribe them selves as soc iali sts , while
hars hly condemni ng the 'new seek to attain s tate power in and to become t warned; what's
class'
of radical i
ntel lectual s who strugg le Bakun in
the cou rse of popular
he vici ous "Red bureaucracy"
of which
ofte n called 's ocial ism'. I rather
a gree wit h
Rudo lf Rocker' s percepti on that
these ( qu ite cen tral) b es t of Enlighte nment
tende ncie s in an arc hism dr aw fr om the and clas sical liberal th ought , well In fact, as I've tried
b eyond wh at he descr ibed. with
to sh ow they co ntrast sharply
Marxist-Leni
ni st doct rine and pr act ice, the are f as hio nable in
'liber tarian' larly , me to
doct rine s that
the US a nd UK particu
and othe r con temporary ideol reduce
ogies , all o f whic h seem to
to advoc acy o f one or anothe r fo rm of il legitimate often real tyranny .
autho rity , quite
The Spa ni sh Re vo lu ti on
RBR : In the p ast , when you ha ve spoke n about an arc hi sm, you
have ofte n emphasized For you there
the ex ample o f the S pa ni sh Revolut ion . to be two aspects to th is e xample. Revolu tio n i s,
would seem
On the one hand, the
ex per ience of the
S panish
you sa y, a good ex ample o f 'an arc hi sm in a ct ion'. On the ot her , you ha ve als o st res sed that the good exa mple of what worker ef fort s u sing p art icipatory anarchi sm in action S panish revol utio n i s a rough thei r own two aspects one and for p eople' s --
s can achieve th
d emocracy . Are these
and p artic ipatory democracy --
the same thi ng for you? Is anarch ism a phil osophy power? CHOM SK Y: I'm reluc tant to
"phi lo sophy" to refer to what seem
use f ancy polysyl la ble s l ike s ordi nary common sense . ts of
And I'm als o unc omfor ta ble with slogans . The achievemen Sp anis h worker s and pe asant s, befo re the revolu tio n was
cr ushed, were impres sive in many w ays. The term 'partic ip ato ry democracy' is developed in a more recent but there one, which sure ly are point s o f
a di ffere nt co ntext,
similar ity . I'm sor ry if thi s seem s ev as ive. It because I don't think either
is , but that' s
the concept o f an arc hi sm or of clear eno ugh to sa me. of t he S panis h Revol uti on terms be a ble to answer
partic ip ato ry democracy is the quest ion whether RBR : One of was the
they are the
the m ain a ch ievements
d egree of grass roo ts d emocracy es ta bl is hed. In is est im ated t hat over 3
of people, it
mill ion w ere involved.
Ru ral and urban product
ion w as m anage d by workers your mi nd that anarchi succeeded st s, in
them selves . I s it a co incide nce to known for thei r ad vocacy of th is are a of col lective
indiv idual freedom,
a dmin ist ration ? at all. The te ndencie s i n an arc hi sm a hig hly organi zed
CHOM SK Y: No coin cidence
that I've alw ays f ound mo st pers uasive seek society , integ rating many diffe (workplace, commun rent kinds
of s truc ture s
ity , a nd manifo ld ot her f orms of vol untary not b y th ose in a
ass ociati on) , but contr ol led b y partic ipants, pos iti on to give order s (except, ag
ain, when autho rity c an b e
ju sti fied, as is sometime s the c ase , in speci fic cont ingenc ies ).
Dem oc ra cy
RBR : An arch is ts often e xpend a great de al of ef fort at buildi ng ten a ccu sed of thi s, many
up grass roo ts d emocracy . Indeed they are of "taking d emocracy to extremes." Y et, despite
anarchi st s would
not readily
ident ify democracy as a central
compone nt o f an arc hi st phi lo sophy . Anarch ist s o ften describe the ir polit ics as being about 'so individual' - - they are les ciali sm' or b ei ng about 'the
s l ikely to
say that an arc hism is d emoc ratic ideas a re a
about democracy
. W ould you
a gree that
cen tral featu re of an arch ism? CHOM SK Y: Critic ism of 'democracy' among an arc hi sts has h as
of ten b een crit ici sm of p arl iamentary de moc racy , as it ari sen wit hin soc ietie s wit h deeply repres the U S, whic h has been as f American d emocracy was fo
sive features . T ake
ree as any , si nce i ts origi ns. unded on the pri nciple , st res sed by
James Ma di son in the Con sti tut ional Conventi on i n 17 87, that the primary fun of the opulent England, the ctio n of government from the majority ." is "to pro tect t he mino rity Thu s he w arned t hat in of t he da y, i f the
only qu as i-de moc ratic model
general
po pu lation were allowed a sa
y i n public
affair s, they
would implement
a grarian re form or othe r atroc itie s, a nd that be c are ful ly crafted to a void suc h
the A mer ican sys tem must cr imes a gainst defended
"the right s of property ," which must prevail ).
must b e
(in fact,
P arliamentary democracy sharp cr iti cism b y genu ine that are
wit hin thi s f ra mework doe s merit libertarian s, and I've lef hardly subtle
t out m any ot her features
- - slavery , to menti on ju st one, or ly condemned
the wage
slavery that was bitter had never heard o
b y worki ng people who
f an arc hi sm or communi sm righ t th rough the
19 th cen tury , an d beyond.
Leni ni sm
RBR : The importance meaningf ul change in Yet the of gras sroo ts d emoc racy to any socie ty would seem to be sel f eviden t.
left has been am bigu ous a bout thi s i n the p ast. I'm ly, of soc ial democracy , but als o of Bo ls hevi sm left that would seem to have more in
speaking general
-- t ra di tio ns on the common
with elit ist thi nking than with
str ict de moc ratic w as skept ical
practice . Lenin, that workers
to u se a w el l-known ex ample, a nyth ing more I assume,
co nsc iou snes s" - - by which,
could develop
he meant that worker
than "t ra de un ion
s
cou ld no t see f ar be yond thei r immediate predicament. Similarly , the F abian soc iali st, Beatr ice W ebb, who w as very infl uent ial in the La bou r P arty i n England, had the view that "hor se raci ng odds!" it doing on Where
worker s were on ly in teres ted in does thi s el iti sm or iginate CHOM SK Y: I'm afraid it's
a nd what is hard for
the le ft? thi s. I f the
me to answer
le ft i s unde rst ood to
incl ude ' Bol shevi sm,' t hen I would f latly left. L en in w as one of the greatest
di ssoc iate mysel f fr om the
enemie s o f soc iali sm, in my opini on, for re as ons I've
di scus sed.
The
idea that workers
are only i ntere sted i n ho rsee ven a s uperfi cial working
raci ng is an a bsurd ity that
c ann ot wit hstand
lo ok at la bor hi sto ry or t he live ly and independent
clas s pres s t hat flo uri shed in many pl ace s, i nclud ing the manufactu ring towns of New England not m any mile s f rom of
where I'm writ ing -- n ot to spea k of the inspi ri ng record
the courageou s st ruggle s of persecu ted and op pre ssed people th rough out his tory , unti l th is very moment. mi serable cor ner o f th is hemisphe re, Haiti, European conq part of ueror s as a p aradise Tak e t he most reg arded by the
an d t he so urce of no small
Europe's wealth,
now dev as tated, perha ps beyond condi tio ns so mi serable
rec overy . In the p ast few ye ars , under that few people in peasants movement
the r ich count rie s can imagine them,
a nd s lum-d wel ler s con str ucted a popular democratic b ased on gr as sr oot s organizat ion s that surpasse s
ju st about anyth
ing I know of el sewhere ; on ly deeply to col lapse with ridi cule when ntel lectual s s
commi tted commi ssars cou ld fail
they hear the s olemn pronou ncement s o f American i and poli tical le ader s about how t
he US has to teach Haitian s were s o
the les son s o f democracy . Thei r achievement substant ial and frigh
teni ng to the powerfu l that
they had to be
subjected to
yet another
dose o f vici ous terr or, wit h a cknowledged,
co nside ra bly more US and they s til l have not in hor se-racing? I'd suggest
s upport t han is publicly sur rendered.
Are they in tere sted on ly
some l ines I've occas ional ly quoted f rom Ro us seau: orn sword,
"when I see multi tudes of en tire ly nake d savages sc European volupt uou sne ss a nd endure
hunger , fi re, the
and de ath to prese rve on ly thei r i ndependence, I does not b eh oove s la ves to reaso n about f reedom." RBR : S peaking general ly a gain, your own
feel that it
Democ racy , Necessary
as ou r own. parliamentary
wit h the role a nd prevalence
Ill us ion s , etc . -- has d ealt cons iste ntly
withi n 'W ester n' (or
work - - Deterr ing
of el iti st ide as in socie tie s suc h
You have a rgued that ) democracy there
is a deep anta gon ism to any les t it threaten the
real role or inpu t fr om the
m ass of p eople,
uneve n dis tribu tio n in we alt h whic h favors is quite convi nci ng here,
the r ich. Your work ha ve been
but, th is aside, some
shocked by your asse
rti ons . F or i nstance , you compare the L en in, more or shocked les s
pol itic s o f Pres ident John F. K ennedy with equating the two . This, I migh t ad d, has
supporter s o f
both ca mps! C an you elaborate a compari son? CHOM SK Y: I haven't actually
l itt le on the validity
of t he
"equated"
the doct rine s o f the
liberal in telle ctual s of the K ennedy ad min is tratio n with Leni nis ts, but I h ave no ted str iking point s of sim ilarity b y Baku nin a cen tury e arl ier in h is the "new class." For ex ample, I --
rathe r as predicted perceptive quoted
commentary on
p assages
from McN amar a on the need to enhance "free, " and a bout how democracy"
man ager ial cont rol if we a re to be truly the "undermanagement" is an assault
that is "the re al threat to Change a
a gain st reaso n it self .
few words in
the se passages, argued that the
a nd we have standard L roo ts a re rathe r deep, in
en ini st doctri ne. I've both cases . W it hout "sh ocking," I can't
fu rthe r clar ifi cation comment
a bout wh at p eople find
fur ther . The comparis
on s are speci fic, and I thi nk a n er ror , a nd
both proper and properly I'd b e i ntere sted to
qu al ified. If not, that's .
b e en ligh tened about it
Marx ism
RBR : S pec ifi cally , Leni ni sm refer s to a f orm of developed with V.I. Leni n. Are you M arxi sm that
implic itly disti ngui sh ing the n
works of M arx from when you use
the partic ular cr iti cism you have of Leni ' Len ini sm'? Do you see an d Leni n's later practice a co nti nui ty s?
the term
between Marx's views
CHOM SK Y: Bakuni n's w arn ings a bout the "Red bure auc racy" that would in st itute "the worst of all were l ong before Lenin,
and w ere directed ag ai nst the were, in
d espo tic government s"
fact, fo ll owers of many M att ick and othe often converge rs with
fo ll owers of Mr . M arx. There
dif fere nt kind s; P annekoek, Luxe are very far f
mbourg,
rom Lenin , and thei r views
elemen ts of anarcho-synd sympatheti cally of
icali sm. K orsc h and othe rs wrote
the a narch ist revolu tio n in S pain, i n fact. , but the re are also
There are cont inu itie s f rom Marx to Lenin
co nti nuit ies to Marxist s who were harsh ly cr itical of Leni n and Bol shev ism. Teodo r Sh ani n's work in t he past ye ar s on M arx's later attitude s towards peasant revo here . I'm far from being lut ion is a ls o relevant venture
a Marx scho lar , and wouldn't
any ser iou s judgement the 'real Marx,' if ques tio n.
on whic h of the se con tin uit ies reflec ts c an b e an answer to that
there even
RBR : Recent ly, we obtained a copy of your
Anarch ism (re-publi shed last
particu lar hi s development capitali sm. Do life a nd work -you generally a young,
ye ar b y Di scu ss ion Bu ll eti n in the
own Note s O n
US A). I n th is you mentio n the views o f the of the idea of
alienatio n under
"e ar ly Mar x" , in
a gree wit h th is divis ion in Marx's
more liber tarian s ociali st but, in
later ye ars , a firm
a uth ori tarian? sively from the mil ieu
CHOM SK Y: The e ar ly M arx draws exten in whic h he l ived, and one f th inki ng that animated clas
inds m any s imilar itie s to the sical liberali sm, aspects of the
Enlig htenmen t and Frenc h and Germ an Romantic ism. A gain, I'm not eno ugh o f a M arx sch olar to autho ritat ive judgement. is that the early Marx w pretend to an
M y impre ss ion, for wh at it i s wort h, as very much a f igure of the late
Enlig htenmen t, and the
l ate r Mar x was a high
ly author itarian le to
activi st, an d a cri tical a nalyst say about so
of c apital ism, who had litt
ciali st a lte rnatives . B ut tho se are impres
sio ns.
RBR : From my under view i s in formed the idea of human
standing,
the co re part of
your overal l In the p ast
b y your
concept
of h um an nature. perhaps, as s
n atu re was seen,
omethi ng
regre ss ive, even l imit ing. F or ins tance, the of human nature is ofte n used
unc hanging aspect for why thi ngs
as a n argument
can't b e changed fu You t ake a differe
nda men tally in
the directi on of anarchi sm.
nt view? Why? p art o f anyone's point of view is s ome from
CHOM SK Y: The core co ncept of
human nature,
however i t ma y be remote
aw arene ss or lack artic
ulatio n. A t least,
that i s tr ue of p eople
who cons ider t hemselve s moral agents aside, whether a pers on who a dvocates
, not mons ters . Mon ster s reform or revo lut ion,
or stabil ity or retur n to e ar lier stages, one' s own g arden, fo r people.' t akes stand on judgement i
or s imply cult ivating is ' good
the grou nds that it s based on some
Bu t that
concept ion
of human nature as clear
, whic h a re as onable perso n wil l try to ma ke can be e valuated. So in else.
as poss ible, i f on ly so that it I'm no
th is respect
diffe rent from anyone n atu re has
You're righ t that human
b een seen as someth ing
'regre ss ive,' but t hat must
b e the res ult of pro found conf us ion.
Is my grandd aughte r no diffe rent from a rock, ch icken, a monkey? A perso
a salam ander , a
n who dismi sse s th is a bsurd ity as is a dis tin ctive human nature. We
absurd rec ogni zes that there are lef t on ly with no ntr ivial and fasc
the ques tio n of wh at it i s -- a high ly inating questi on, with en ormou s sc ient if ic We know a fair a moun t about sign ifi cance. s, intu iti on s
intere st and human s cer tain aspects
igni ficance.
of it -- n ot th ose of major human with our h opes and wishe
Beyond that, we are left and specu lation s.
There is not hing "regres sive" a bout the fact embryo i s so con strai ned that it
that a hum an s, o r that
does n ot grow wing
it s vi sual sy stem canno t fu ncti on in the or that it lacks the homing
m anne r of an inse ct,
in sti nct o f pigeon s. The same also enable
facto rs that con strai n the organism' s development it to attain similar a ri ch, complex, and highly
articu lated stru cture ,
in f undamental wa
ys to con speci fic s, wit h ri ch and
remarka ble c apacitie s. An org an ism that lacked such determi native i ntr ins ic s truc ture, which of cour se radically of
limit s the p ath s of de vel opment, wou ld be some kind amoeboid creature , to b e pit ied (even if
it could s urvive
somehow) .The scope and limi re lated. Take language, one about whic h much believe Martian that all pos of the
ts of development
are logical
ly
few dis tinc tive h um an c apacitie s
is known. W e have v ery stro ng reaso ns to sible human languages are very s imilar ; a
scien ti st obse rving humans migh
t conc lude t hat there The reaso n i s
is ju st a si ngle language, with that the particu lar aspect of
mino r variants. human nature
that under lie s the
growt h of langua ge allow s very re str icted opti on s. I s th is limit ing? Of co urse . Is it liberati ng? Als o of cour se. I t is the se very re str icti on s that ma ke i t pos sible for a ri ch and in tri cate sy stem of ex pre ss ion of th ought to develop i n s imilar w ays on
the b as is of very rud imentary , scatte red, and v ar ied experience . What a bout the matter o f biol ogically-determ ined human cause for
dif fere nces ? That the se exis t is su rely tr ue, and a joy , not fe ar or regre t. Life living, an d a sane pers a mong clone s would
not b e wort h
on wil l on ly rejo ice that othe rs h ave share. That shou ld be elementary .
abili ties that they
do not
What is commonly indeed, in
b el ieved a bout these m atte rs is s trange
m y opi nio n. is , condu cive to the development We do no t
Is human natu re, whatever it
of an arc hi st fo rms of l ife or a b arrie r to them? know eno ugh to matters
answer , one w ay or the othe r. The se are
for ex per imentatio n and disc overy , no t empty
pron ounceme nts .
The fu tu re
RBR : To begin fin is hing off , I'd like to ask you brie fly about
some curre nt iss ues on the is s imilar in the
left . I don't know i
f the sit uation
U SA but here , with
the fal l of the Soviet
Un ion, a cer tain demoral so much
izatio n has se t in on t he lef t. It is n't rs of what exis ted in
that people were dear supporte
the S oviet Unio n, but
rather i t's a general
feeli ng that wit h
the demise o f the S oviet Unio n the ide a o f so ciali sm has als o been dragged do wn. H ave you come acro ss thi s type of
demorali zation ? What' s your respon se to it? CHOM SK Y: M y re sponse to t he end of similar to my reactio n to the defeat of S oviet tyranny was Hitler and Muss oli ni. In
all c ase s, i t i s a victory been partic ularly
for the human sp
iri t. It sh ould h ave f
w elc ome to s ocial ist s, since a great enemy o llapsed. Like you, I was int rigued idered zed to
sociali sm had at last co see how people --
i ncl uding people
who had cons
them selves anti-St ali ni st and anti-Lenin by the co llapse o f the tyranny . What were more dee ply committed to
ist -- were demorali it reveals is that they
Lenin ism t han they believed.
There are, however , ot her re as on s to b e co ncerned el iminati on o f th is brutal and tyrannical much "soc iali st" as it was to be both, and that the West, while system,
a bout the w as as
latter
"democrat ic" (recall
which
that it
claimed
claim w as ridic uled i n the wea po n of t he serv ice of to do wit h the
the fo rmer was eagerly accepted, as a
ag ain st social ism - - one o f the m any ex amples
Wester n i ntel lectual s to po wer ). One re as on has nature of the Cold War. I n my vie w, it was in
sign if icant
measure
a spec ial case of
the 'Nor th-South co nfl ict,' to u se of the
the curre nt euphemism f or Europe' s conque st of much wor ld. Eastern Europe the Cold W ar from reacti on of attempts pur sue an independe of scale h ad been the
orig inal 'th ird world,' and to the to
191 7 had no s ligh t resemblance b y othe r parts of the
thi rd world
nt cou rse, tho ugh in thi s case
diffe rence s
g ave the co nfl ict a l ife o f it s own.
F or th is re as on, it
was on ly reasonable to
ex pect the regi on to retu rn pretty of the Wes t, l ike the Czec to rejo in it, h
much to i ts e arl ier status : parts
Republ ic or Western P oland, cou ld be ex pected whi le ot hers revert to the
traditio nal se rvice r ole, the ex standard thi rd world elite ( wi th generally
Nomenklatu ra b ecom ing the the a pproval of
Wes tern state-corpo
rate power , which
prefe rs them to and it h as led to
a lte rnatives ). That w as not a pretty pro spect, immense suf feri ng. do with the matter o f
Anot her reas on f or co ncern has to deter rence a nd no n-alignment.
Grote sque as the
S oviet e mpire or no n-
was, it s very exis tence offe red a cer tain space f
alignmen t, and fo r perfect ly cyni cal reason s, it s ometimes provided are gone, assis tance to victim s of Wes tern att ack. Tho se opt ion s
an d the S out h i s su ffe ring the con sequen ces. do with wh at the bus ines s pres s call s
A thi rd reaso n has to
"t he pa mpered W ester n workers " wit h the ir "l uxuri ous life style s." With muc h of E aster n Europe ret urn ing to the
fo ld, owne rs a nd man ager s have po wer ful new we apon s ag ain st the working classe s and the poor at home. GM and VW c an
no t on ly trans fer producti on to Mexico and B th reaten to, which
razi l (or a t least ing) , but als o
ofte n amount s to the same th ary , where they can f
to P oland and Hung trai ned workers
ind sk illed an d a re gloat ing
at a fract ion of t he cos t. They
about it , under standably , given the
guidi ng v alue s.
We can learn a lot
a bout wh at the Cold
War (or
an y ot her is
co nfl ict ) w as about by looki un ha ppy after
ng at who i s cheer ing a nd who
it ends . B y that cr iter ion , the victor s i n the e x-Nomenklatura, now oser s i ncl ude a with
Cold War i nclude Wes tern elite s and the rich b eyond their wildes t dreams, and the l
substant ial p art of t he populatio n of the East along worki ng people and the poor
in the W est, as well as popular ht an independen t path.
sec tor s i n the S outh that have soug Such ideas te
nd to arou se near hy ster ia a mong W ester n they can even perce ive them, whi ch i s rare. on s
intel lectual s, when That's
e asy to s how . It' s also under stand able. The observati po wer a nd priv ilege; hence
are cor rect, an d s ubvers ive of hys teria. In general,
the reacti ons of a n h ones t perso n to the end be more complex than
of
the Cold W ar will co llapse of
just ple as ure over the
a bru tal tyranny , a nd prevaili ng reactio ns are isy , in m y opi nio n.
suff used wit h extreme hypocr
Capi ta li sm
RBR : In many w ays the or iginal lef t today find s it sel f bac k at it s
start ing poin t in the l as t cent ury . Li ke the n, i t now ca pital ism that is b e greater in the ascendancy . There than at any
faces a f orm of would seem to ot her t ime in
'conse nsu s' today , more
his tory , that capitali
sm is the on ly valid fo rm of fact that could
eco nomic organizati on pos sible , th is d esp ite the wealth inequality is widening.
A gain st th is b ackdrop, one
argue that
the lef t i s un sure of h ow to go f orward. How do curre nt peri od? I s it a ques tio n of 'b ack to the ef fort now be towards bri nging out t he
you look at the basic s'? Should libertarian
tra di tio n in soc iali sm and tow ards st res sing
democrati c ideas? CHOM SK Y: This is mostly called prop agand a, in my opin ion. What i s a sy stem of corporate
'c apital ism' i s basically
mercant ili sm, wit h huge tyrann ies e xerc is ing vast sy stems, and social
a nd largely
unaccoun ta ble private economy , pol iti cal
contr ol over the
an d cu ltu ral li fe, operati ng in clo se cointerve ne massive ly in the
operati on wit h powerfu l s tates that
domest ic economy and inte
rnatio nal so ciety . That is much
dram ati cally tr ue of the Un ited St ate s, con trary to illu sio n. The ric h and privileged
a re no more wil li ng to face ough they
market disc ipli ne than
they have b een in the past, th
co nside r it just fi ne fo r the general populatio
n. Mere ly to c ite
a few il lus tratio ns, the Re agan ad min is tratio n, whi ch reveled in free m arket r hetor ic, also boasted to commun ity t hat it was the hist ory -- actually Ging ric h, who the busine ss
most protect ion ist in post-w ar US a ll othe rs combined. Newt nts a s uperan y
more than
le ads the cu rren t cru sade, represe s more
rich distr ict that receive ot her s uburban regio
federal sub sidie s than
n i n the count ry, out side of the
federal
sy stem it self . The 'co nservative s' who
a re call ing for a n end to
sc hoo l lu nche s fo r hu ngry ch ildren are also demanding an increase in the budget for the P entagon, whi ch was - - as
es ta bl ished in the late 19 40 s in its cur rent form because the busi nes s pres s was kind eno indust ry cannot surv ive in ugh to tell us - - high tech
a "pure,
competit ive, un subs idized, t must be its
'f ree enterp rise' economy ," an d t he governmen
"savio r." W ithou t the savior , Gingr ich' s con sti tuen ts would be poor working p eople (if they were lucky ). There would be no
compute rs, electr oni cs g ene rally , aviation automatio n, etc. , etc., people, right down the li st.
indu stry , met al lurgy , Anarch ist s, of all
shou ld no t be ta ken in by the se tradit ional frauds. social is t ideas are relevant, open to them. and
More than ever , l ibertarian the populatio n is very much mass of co rporate propag
Despi te a huge les ,
anda, out side o f educated circ
people s ti ll maintai n pretty muc h the ir tradit ional attitude s. I n the U S, fo r ex ample, more the econom ic sy stem as sy stem as a fraud, whic "t he people." have too than 8 0% of t he populatio n regard polit ical
"i nhere ntly unfair " and the h se rves the "special
inte rest s," not p eople
Overwhelm ing majori ties thi nk working aff ai rs (the same is has the
lit tle voi ce in public government
true in
England) , that the
respo nsib ili ty of
ass ist ing p eople in need,
that spendi ng fo r educatio n and over budget-cutt s that ing and ta x are saili ng general
healt h sh ould t ake precedence cut s, that the
curren t Republ ican proposal
th rough Congres s benef it the ri ch and harm the populati on, a nd s o on. Inte llec tuals m ay tell
a di ffere nt s tory ,
but it's not a ll that dif fic ult to f ind ou t the facts.
RBR : To a point co llapse of proven
an arc hi st ideas
h ave been vind
icated b y t he
the S oviet Un ion -- the predicti ons of Bakun in have think that an arc hi sts sho uld take and from t he a narch ist s l ook to
to be cor rect. Do you
heart from thi s general development
perceptive nes s of Bakun in' s an aly si s? Should the period ahead with greater hist ory? CHOM SK Y: I thi nk -- at least impl icit in the above. I th hope -conf idence
in the ir ide as and
that t he answer i s
ink the
curre nt er a has omino us
porte nt, a nd s igns of gre at h ope. Wh ich resu lt en sues de pend s on wh at w e make of the opportun it ies.
RBR : L astly , Noa m, a dif feren t so rt o f quest ion . W e ha ve a pin t of Guinne ss on order fo r you here. W hen are you come a nd dri nk it? CHOM SK Y: K eep the Gui nne ss re ady . I hope it lo ng. Less won't be too going to
jocu larly , I'd b e t here tomo rrow if we cou ld. W e me, unu sual f or t hese cons tant Ireland, an d wou ld love to with the so rdid
(my wife came along with
tr ips ) had a m arvelou s t ime in come b ack. Why don'
t we? W on' t bore you
detail s, but d emands are extraordi
nary , and mount ing -- a ing to describe.
re flect ion of the cond iti ons I've been try