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Hydrogen Industry Panel on Codes (HIPOC)
To broaden, and to the extent practicable, harmonize the fixed-facility hydrogen
code and standard development activities of the ICC and NFPA to facilitate a
successful industry commercialization decision by 2015.
In-Person Meeting – draft MINUTES
October 29-30, 2008, Sheraton Phoenix Downtown Hotel coincident with
Fuel Cell Seminar & Exposition October 27th -30th, 2008 – Phoenix Convention Center.
1. CALL TO ORDER October 30th. – Meeting Chair, Marty Gresho 1:05 PT
2. ROLL CALL ESTABLISHMENT OF A QUORUM. – Staff
# Panelists Present Category
1 josepht@airproducts.com Industrial Gas &
Tom Joseph n,Y
Alt. – Bob.Boyd@boc.com Chemical
2 Nancy Pehrson nancy.pehrson@centerpointenergy.com N NFPA 52
3 Iby George ibygeorge@co.clarke.ga.us Y Code Enforcement
4 Marty Gresho mtgresh@sandia.gov Y Code Enforcement
5 Charles Henrici cbhenrici@juno.com Y NFPA 55
6 Greg Milewski Gregory.Milewski@shell.com N Energy Company
7 Glenn Scheffler GWSSol@aol.com N
Fuel Cell Hydrogen
Vehicles
8 michael.short@utcpower.com
Mike Short N,n Fuel Cell Industry
Alt. – Mark.Richards@versa-power.com
9 rwsche@sandia.gov
Bob Schefer Y,y Academic/Research
Alt. – will@sandia.gov
10 Andrea Zajac zajaca@michigan.gov N Code Enforcement
Quorum? N
Guests
11 Antonio Ruiz antonio.ruiz@hq.doe.gov Y US DOE HFCIT
12 Tony Androsky androsky@usfcc.com Y USFCC
13 Carl Rivkin carl_rivkin@nrel.gov Y NREL
14 Mike Thompson Michael.Thompson2@ee.doe.gov Y SENTECH Inc.
15 Robert Williams RWilliams@co.clark.nv.us Y Clark Co., NV, F.D.
16 Brian Ladds brian.ladds@calgary.ca Y Calgary, AB, F.D.
NY DOS Fire
17 Mark Mallick mmallick@dos.state.ny.us Y Prevention/Control
Staff
S Karen Hall khall@ttcorp.com N NHA
2nd Geoffrey
Y NHA
Bromaghim GBROMAGHIM@ttcorp.com
S Darren Meyers dmeyers@iccsafe.org Y ICC
2nd Bob Guenther bguenther@iccsafe.org Y ICC
S Paul May pmay@nfpa.org N NFPA
S Chad Blake Chad_Blake@nrel.gov Y NREL
3. REVIEW AND APPROVE AGENDA.
4. APPROVAL OF MINUTES. No Quorum, therefore the HIPOC was unable to review.
The most up-to-date Minutes may be downloaded from:
http://www.hydrogenandfuelcellsafety.info/hipoc/index.asp
HIPOC_draft
MINUTES_10-09-08[2].doc
HIPOC MTG – 10/29-30/2008 Page 1 of 4
Hydrogen Industry Panel on Codes (HIPOC)
To broaden, and to the extent practicable, harmonize the fixed-facility hydrogen
code and standard development activities of the ICC and NFPA to facilitate a
successful industry commercialization decision by 2015.
5. SCHEDULE: Note that this meeting of the HIPOC has been structured to permit morning travel on
Wednesday, October 29th, 2008, and a reasonable mid-afternoon departure on Thursday, October 30th.
6. DISCUSSION
1-1:40 Presentation – NFPA 2/55 Separation Distance Task Group Process and use of NFPA55
Separation Distance Table (Martin Gresho)
Mr. Gresho lead the initial discussion of Codes – Standards (NFPA 5000, 72, 55, 13);
November 2006 (est.); January 2007 (NFPA 55 charged NFPA2 with a scope, including risk-
informed standards development decisions); Led discussion into TG6 history and NFPA2 TC’s
subsequent four meetings (Livermore, Allentown, Golden x2).
1:40-2:30 Presentation – Predicting radiative heat fluxes and flammability envelopes from unintended
releases of hydrogen (Bill Houf)
Mr. Houf led s discussion of SNL investigations into radiative heat fluxes and flammability
envelopes from unintended releases of hydrogen. Radiant flow for GH2 is about half of
that for hydrocarbon-based fuels. Froud number is relation of volume to the buoyancy.
Whether its methane, hydrogen, propane and CNG, the data for radiant energy
distribution collapses along curves nearly identical that the literature for hydrocarbon
flames; This confirms the validity of SNL’s investigations; Discussion ensued relative to the
defined scopes of NFPA 52 (dispensing) compared to NFPA 55 (bulk storage).
2:45-4:30 Presentation – Risk-Informed Separation Distances for Hydrogen Gas Storage Facilities
(Jeff LaChance)
Mr. LaChance led discussion into risk-informed code development for separations by
beginning with “data analysis” and ending with an explanation of the “risk assessment.”
DATA ANALYSIS: through the selection of percentage of pipe diameter (i.e., % Area) and
reasons for selecting “no harm” radiant values including the resultant separation
projections; a discussion of the lack of statistically significant data from the industry
specific to hydrogen; Generic data from nuclear (i.e., data w/ high pedigree) and offshore
oil industry (i.e., small, large leaks and ruptures); Our data does have a weakness: It will
not help us differentiate based on pressure, so we spread the leakage data from the oil
industry across the four different pressure ranges equally; Data representing 5-yrs of APCI
operations with HFS’s and industrial applications was “binned” for SNL by APCI for leaks.
RISK ANALYSIS: SNL-guided TG6 assessment was to conclude that “the risk to people”
drives the analysis (fatalities); larger leak diameters have lower leak-frequency … so much
so that they can be excluded (ignored) from our separation distance determination; risk
guideline was selected from existing stations (gasoline and CNG); Societal risk of death in
U.S. or EU = 2-4 x 10-4/yr; risk of death from fires in U.S. 1.3x10-5/yr; The SNL-guided TG6
assessment selected a risk-guideline rather than a criteria (pass-fail) equivalent to fatalities
at U.S. gasoline stations (2x10-5/yr); SNL hydrogen leak model uncertainty in separation
distances (i.e., ~18%); translate an infrared radiation dose to a fatality using Tsao and Perry
probit functions; if you’re “in the flame” your dead (is a conservative assumption);
“scenario propagation not analyzed, but believed not important.
HIPOC MTG – 10/29-30/2008 Page 2 of 4
Hydrogen Industry Panel on Codes (HIPOC)
To broaden, and to the extent practicable, harmonize the fixed-facility hydrogen
code and standard development activities of the ICC and NFPA to facilitate a
successful industry commercialization decision by 2015.
(LeChance) – “The importance is in understanding the uncertainty in the analysis.”
4:30-5:05 Committee deliberations
6:00 Depart to group dinner function
CALL TO ORDER October 30th
8:00-8:30 Mr. Gresho requested that Staff “set the stage” relative to ICC code development, deadlines
(detail in enclosed files).
ICC ICC
2009-10_CD-Schedule.pdf
CodeDevSchedule thru 2012 Editions.pdf
Mr. Meyers then discussed options for the HIPOC and attendees to pursue two or more
proposed code changes such that the Membership would be left with the decision to pursue a
reference to NFPA 55 or a reference to Tabular separations within the body of the IFC, or
perhaps even additional alternatives. (see detail of alternative proposals in enclosed files)
HIPOC Separations HIPOC Separations
Proposal-IFC_Ch35 Table.doc
Proposal-IFC_Ch35 Ref 55.doc
8:30-9:30 Committee deliberations then continued: Items discussed … Origin of 400 scf benchmark for
determining limits of a “bulk” hydrogen system, and the fact that 400 scf is equivalent to 0.95
kg H2G; NFPA says 400 scf appeared in 2nd published edition on NFPA50A w/o attribution or
origin) vs. 3,000 scf MAQ allowed by IFC; The origin and intent of original T2209.3.1 (intended
to apply to refueling stations only; not the level of production expected at an industrial-level);
Is it appropriate for HIPOC to take the TG6 table and apply it to refueling stations only w/o
creating a conflict with new Ch. 35 Scope?
3501.1 Scope. The storage and use of flammable gases shall be in accordance with this
chapter. Compressed gases shall also comply with Chapter 30 and cryogenic fluids shall also
comply with Chapter 32. Bulk hydrogen compressed gas systems. Gaseous and bulk liquefied
hydrogen gas systems shall also comply with NFPA 55.
423,000scf of GH2 = 1,000kg = 1tonne; 25kg GH2 x 423scf/kg GH2 = 10,575scf GH2; 3,000scf
GH2 / 423 scf/kg GH2 = 7.1kg GH2.
HIPOC MTG – 10/29-30/2008 Page 3 of 4
Hydrogen Industry Panel on Codes (HIPOC)
To broaden, and to the extent practicable, harmonize the fixed-facility hydrogen
code and standard development activities of the ICC and NFPA to facilitate a
successful industry commercialization decision by 2015.
9:30-9:45 Break
9:45-11:30 Committee deliberations continued;
Mr. Gresho: “We need to know from the industry folks whether applying the TG6 separations
to compressors, evaporators, dispensers would stop them from doing (unnecessarily
restricting) what they want to do with on-site storage of GH2?”;
Mr. Boyd led discussion into typical national and international GH2 dispensing scenarios; A
discussion of an H2Gen at 200kg/hr for (12000 psig) 350bar (35MPa) fueling at the vehicle, and
a Hydro-pack booster from 35MPa to 70MPa.
Mr. George requested that SNL’s Chris Moen and Mr. Scheffler (excused) report back to the
HIPOC relative to the ISO TC197 Netherlands presentation (NFPA55 separations).
Mr. Moen requested Staff provide SNL with feedback relative to ICC AHC GH2 letters germane to
enclosed parking garage ventilation rates. Mr. Guenther noted that the 2009 editions revise/reduce
enclosed parking garage ventilation rates from 1.5 to .75 cfm/ft2.
7. NEXT MEETINGS.
1. Web-interactive call-in. Wednesday, December 3rd, 2008 – NOON ET (11a CT, 10a MT, 9a PT)
2. Web-interactive call-in. Wednesday, January 7th, 2009 – NOON ET (11a CT, 10a MT, 9a PT)
3. In-Person meeting. Tentatively for February 24-26, 2009
8. ADJOURNMENT (Depart to Airport). 12:52 PT
HIPOC MTG – 10/29-30/2008 Page 4 of 4
