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                     ! In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation          William Farone, PhD - Vol. I   10/4/00

                                                      Page 1 to Page 316




                                                  Coriden;ed Transcript and Concordance
                                                              Prepared by:

                                                       Tooker & Antz
                                             Court Reporting and Video Services
                                                818 Mission Street, 5th Floor
                                                 San Francisco, CA 94103
                                                  Phone: (415) 512-0295
                                                    FAX: (415) 512-9543




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                85A                                                      In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation                      William Farone, PhD -Vol. I       1014/00                     XMAX(111)
                                                      Page 1                                                                                           I^6;     MR. BROWN: Robert Brown of
                                                                                            .,                                                         lWartnick, c7 Chaber, Harowitz &
                      ,. ^                                                                                                                              Tigerman. And I'm representing (e) the
                                                                                                                                                        Plaintiff.
                                                                                                                                                         (9)    MS. COX: Cindy Cox of Gordon &
                                                                                                                                                        Rees (1o) representing Bendix Corporation.
                                                                                                                                                         (i 1)    MR. SCHLATNER: Adam Schlatner
                                                                                                                                                        of Winston (12) & Strawn representing
                                                                                          ^„                                                            Philip Morris.
                                                                                          :::                                                           113)      MS. DAVIS: Kim Davis of Prindle,
                                                                                                                                                        Decker& c:4i Amaro representing J.T.
                                                                                                                                                        Thorpe, Inc., and J.T. (15) Thorpe & Son,
                  „                  ........,.aa....,...                                                                                               Syd Carpenter Marine, Consolidated (1e)
                                                                                                                            Page 6                      Insulation, Triple A Machine Shop, and A.P.
                                                                                                                                                        Green.
                                                                                                                                     =; .y ..           c17i      MR. LOKER: Ford Loker of Church
                                                                                          ^^^ " : ..,..,:,.'°..,. .:...... .......                      & Houff (ie) representing A.W.I. and T& N.
                                                                                                                                                        ci9>      MR. NARKO: Kevin Narko of
                                                                                                 ^ ..... .. ....... ........ .. H. .......... _...      Winston & (20) Strawn for Philip Morris.
                                                     Page 2                               ;^^                                                           (21)      MR. KLAUSEN: Stephen Klausen of
                  M
                                                                                                                                                        Pond, (22) North & Hugo for G.A.F.
                                                                                                                                                        c23)      MS. WALTER: Kristen Walter with
                                                                                                                                                        Yaron & (24) Associates on behalf of Todd
                                                                                         ^,.,         ..W.,.. ........ ....a, , ... M„_.                Shipyards.
                                                                                         ,_, ..,,,.a.. , ..                                             (25)     MR. MCNAMEE: Jim McNamee for
                 ,.^ . ,,,,..                                                                                            :.;:,:        .. ..            Thorpe
                                    .. ._ ... . ...                 ^..
                                                                                                                                                                             Page 9
                                                                                                               Page 7                                    (i) Insulation.
                                                                                          (i; BE IT REMEMBERED that on                                   (2)    MS. VON KASCHNITZ: Ingrid Von
                                                                                         WEpNESDAY, (2) OCTOBER 4, 2000,                                Kaschnitz (3) from Howard, Rice for
                                                                                         commencing at 10:07 a.m. at (3) Four                           Defendant R.J. Reynolds (a) Tobacco
                                                                                         Points By Sheraton Anaheim, 515 West                           Company.
                                                                                         Katella 4 Avenue, Anaheim, California,                          (s)    MS. MASON: Lucy Mason of Shook,
                                                                                         before me, (5) ANGELIQUE MELODY                                Hardy & ( 6) Bacon for Philip Morris,
                                                                                         FERRIO, a Certified Shorthand (6) Reporter                     Incorporated and Lorillard (7) Tobacco
                                                     Page 3
                                                                                         for the State of California, personally (7)                   Company.
                                                                                         appeared: (e)                                                  (a)     MR. LATHAM: William Latham from
                  ,                 .,^..                           ..
                                                                                                                                                       Womble, (9) Carlyle representing R.J.
                                                                                          (^     THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on
                 „'. : ...         ....... .. .. ... ........ ..                                                                                       Reynolds.
                 ,., ^..,..°..,,..                                                       the record no) pursuant to Section 2025 of
                                                                                                                                                        (10)     MR. ZAKNOEN: Ed Zaknoen from
                                                                                         the California Code of (:1) Civil Procedure.
                                                                                                                                                       Winston & (iu Strawn representing Philip
                                                                                          (12)    My name is Seth Toedter,
                                                                                                                                                       Morris.
                                                                                         representative of c.3^ Videotek West                           (12)     MR. WEBB: Dan Webb of Winston
                                  .^..^. , ..... „ ......, ......                        located in Moreno Valley, California. (14) I'm
                ^^,^                                                                                                                                   & Strawn (13) representing Philip Morris.
                                                                                         neither party to nor employee of any party to                  (14)     MR. BARRON: Good morning,
                ^^:^ ..::::: :. .._.., .:....,, .^ .:: ....^.::.                          (15) this deposition nor am I interested in its
                                                                                                                                                       Gerry Barron cis for Lorillard Tobacco
                ^,.^                                                                     outcome.
                                                                                                                                                       Company. clsi (17) WILLIAM J. FARONE,
                             .... . ..... .. ..":. , ....H                               U6)      We are videotaping the deposition of
                                                                                                                                                       Ph.D. (1e) a witness, who having been first
                                                                                         (17 Dr. William A. Farone beginning at
                                                                                                                                                       duly sworn by me (19) was examined and
                                                                                         10:07 a.m. on (1e) October 4th, 2000, in the
                                                                                                                                                       testified as follows: (20)
                                                                                         matter of Tajie M2jor ci9i versus Raybestos
                                                     Page 4                                                                                             (21)     EXAMINATION iz2)
                                                                                        Manufacturing, Incorporated, case (20)
                                                                                        number 300722, James Robert Middlekauf                          (z3)     BY MR. BROWN:
                                                                                        versus (21 British American Tobacco                             (24)     Q. Now that we have you under
                                                                                        Industries, et al., case (22) number                           oath, would you (25) state your full name,
                                                                                        C001180 S.C., Complex Asbestos Litigation                      please.
                                                                                         (23) versus Leslie Whiteley, et al., case
                                                                                        number 828684.                                                                    Page 10
                                                                                           24)    Our location is 515 Katella, Anaheim,               (1)    A. William Anthony Farone.
                                                                                           25) California. This video deposition is                   (2)    Q. And you go by either Mr. or Dr.
                                                                                        taken on                                                      Farone?
                                                                                                                                                      (3)    A. Either one.
                                                                                                             Page 8                                   (4)    Q. And you have the doctorate title,
                 > .:..::: ..:. .. ...._.... ..^. . ..,.,....,                           (= behalf of the Plaintiff. This is the start of             you're c5i entitled to that because of what?
                                                                                        tape (z) number one.                                          (6)    A. I have a Ph.D. in chemistry.
                                                                                         (>)   May we have introductions beginning                    (7)    Q. Dr. Farone, we're going to come
                                                     Page 5
                                                      . ...                             with (4) the witness.                                         back to (a) this in some detail later, butyou
                ^_^ .. .        .... .      :°. ..             _::...                                                                                 were employed as cgi a scientist at Philip
                                                                                        (5)   THE WITNESS: WiiliamA. Farone.

               Tooker & Antz                                                                                       (415) 512-0295                                                 Page 1 to Page 10




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               BSA                               In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation        William Farone, PhD - Vol. f     1014/00                          XMAX(7/2)
                   Morris for a period of time?                    them?                                            Company,werethey ^e) called
                                                                                                                              ,
                          A. Scientist and in management,            (7)  THE HAMBLETT; I hate to interrupt,        directorates?
                  yes.                                             could ce we ask that the witness speak up;        (`)  A. Yes, to distinguish them from
                          Q. And what were those years?            and if its (9) possible to move the phone        divisions (1o) because divisions had
                    _2)   A. 1976 through 1984.                    any closer?                                      managers and the managers (ii)
                   (-^)   Q. And what was your title during         (10)    UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I think           reported to directors. At that time they
                  that period (.c) of time all except the first    that we (11) have a technological problem of were (12) called directorates.
                  year?                                            moving the phone any ;_2 ) closer.                (13)   Q. And this weekly manager's
                   (=-)   A. I was, except for the first year       (13)   THE REPORTER: Should we go off           meeting that you (14) were talking about,
                  when I(16) was associate principle               the (14) record?                                those managers were people who (is)
                  scientist. The rest of the (17) time I was        (=s)    MR. BROWN: Yeah, go offthe             worked in the various directorates?
                  director of applied research.                    record.                                          (16)   A. Managers reported to
                   (:e)   Q. Would you give usjust a brief          (16)   THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the               directors. They (17) worked within the
                  idea of (19) what that was, of what that area record at (17) 10:13. (ie)                         directorates. And each project (ie)
                  of science was?                                   (19)   (Discussion held offthe record.) (20)   would have an annual report where
                  (20)    A. It changed over time, but it
                                                                    (21)   THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the sometimes some of (19) them would be
                 was basically (21) Involved with all facets                                                       twice a year, butaimosfevery project
                                                                  record at (22) 10:14.
                 of cigarette design and of (22) the               (23)                                             (20) was reported once a year. And
                                                                           BY MR. BROWN:
                 chemicai changes that occur during the            (24)    Q. The question that I started to ask those would be weekly (zi) meetings
                  (23) combustion of tobacco.                                                                     where the scientists from those projects
                                                                  you (25) when we went off the record to
                  (24)   Q. Okay. During that period of time                                                        (22) would present the results or
                                                                  adjust our phone
                 did you (zs) have contact with top                                                                summarize the results (23) for the last
                 management and the top                                                Page 13                    year.
                                                                   (1) here, was how frequently including these     (24)   Q. And these managers that you
                                      Page 11
                                                                  Richmond (2) meetings would you interact         metwith czs) weekly, they were within
                 (-) scientists at Philip Morris?                                                                 directorates reporting to
                                                                  withthetop management (3) of Philip
                 (2)    A. Yes, I did.
                                                                  Morris?
                 (.)    Q. And give us some of those                                                                                   Page 15
                                                                   (4)   A. Itwould be about once a
                management (4) people that you had                                                                 (1) different directors, in some cases to
                                                                  month, let's say, (5) some 80 times over
                contact with.                                                                                     you, and (2) sometimes to you. And all of
                                                                 the eight years that I was there.
                 (`-)   A. Well, In terms of the                                                                  the directorates -- (3) all of the directors, I'll
                                                                  (6)    Q. Now, scientists, did you have --
                management that was (6) housed or                                                                 get that straight, would (4) get an
                                                                 describe (7) to us the frequency and the
                headquartered in New York, generally,                                                             opportunity every week to hear what was
                                                                 type of contact that you (e) had with the
               they (7) would come down once a month                                                              going (5) on with all the other directorates?
                                                                 other top scientists at Philip Morris.
               for meetings, so-called (B) Richmond                                                                (6)    A. Basically, that's true, except
                                                                  (9)    A. Well, that would be almost on a
                meetings.                                                                                         that there (7) were projects that were
                                                                 daily (lo) basis. I reported to the
                 (9)    And during that time they would                                                           secret that were not (B) discussed at
                                                                 vice-president of research (il) and
               have (10) included people like Clifford                                                            these meetings and to which we were not
                                                                 development.
               Goldsmith, Ross (z_) Mllhelser, Hugh               (12)                                             (9) privy.
                                                                           Q. Whose name was?
               Cullman, Joe Cullman --                                                                            (10)     Q. Would that include the
                                                                  (13)     A. Well, during the period of time
                (12)     Q. Before you get the list too long,                                                     directorate that (11) was run by Tom
                                                                 that I was (:4) there Dr. Robert B.
               would (i^ ) you tell us who each of those                                                         Osdene?
                                                                 Seligman was the first person (zF) that I
               people are.                                                                                        (I z)    A. Dr. Osdene's directorate,
                                                                 reported to.
                (14)     A. Well, they had different titles                                                      again, over the (13) eight-year period,
                                                                  (16)     And then subsequently I reported
               during the (•.s) different times, but most                                                        the exact names of the divisions (14)
                                                                 to (zi) Dr. Max Hausermann. So, those
               of these people are either (1e; chairman                                                          within those directorates changed.
                                                                 were my two superiors cie) during the
               of the various Philip Morris companies or                                                          ^a)      So, when I first went there, Dr.
                ('-7) presidents of the companies or             eight-year period. And also reporting to
                                                                  (=9) them were various directors. The          Osdene, (16) for example, had several,
               vice-presidents.
                                                                 exact organization (2o) and the names of had divisions that (17) eventually ended
                (i E)    For example, you can be the                                                             up reporting to me, but Dr. Osdene (1e)
                                                                 the directors changed over the ^zl)
               president of (15) Philip Morris U.S.A. and                                                        had several projects mainly relating to
                                                                 eight-year period as well as my
               be a vice-president of (zo) Philip Morris,                                                        smoking and (19) health that were not
                                                                 responsibilities and (22) the people
               Incorporated. There are different (zi)                                                            reported on a routine basis.
                                                                 reporting to me, but the managers (23)
               Philip Morris entities. Some of them are                                                           (20)     He also had projects for
                                                                 reported to directors.
               associated (22) with Philllps Morris                                                              developing (z•) different types of
                                                                 (24)     And, for example, there would be
               Europe and some are associated (23)                                                               smoking articles that were not (22)
                                                                weekly (25) meetings of project reports
               with other Philip Morris subsidiaries.                                                            reported on on a routine basis.
                (24)                                            where all of the
                         And they would generally come                                                            (23)     Q. Did you have personal contact
               for these c24) meetings on a monthly                                   Page 14                    with (z4) Dr. Osdene, however, in terms of
               basis. Different ones would                                                                       what his (25) directorate was doing?
                                                                 (i) directors and managers would hear
                                 Page 12                         all of the (2) scientists who were In                                 Page 16
                                                                 charge of various projects.
                 ) come each month. And the actual                                                                    1)    A. Dr. Qsdene and 1 were
                                                                  (3)    And we also, of course, interacted
              people that are at (z) the meetings are                                                               co-workers, (2) especiallyafter the first
              documented in the meeting minutes.                 on a(Q) free basis with scientists
                                                                 throughout the research (5) and                    year. And we (3) communicated, talked,
              ^3)    Q. How frequently including these                                                              met, and had conversations (4) about
              Richmond c 4) meetings would you interact          development division on a daily basis.
                                                                   6)    Q. Were the areas of, scientific areas     the projects on a continual basis over the
              with top management (^ people during this                                                              (s) last seven years that I was there.
                                                                 that (') were involved at Philip Morris
              eight-year period that you were ; e) with                                                              (6)    Q. For the most part were you able
              Page 10 to Page 16                                                 (415) 512-0295                                                     Tooker & Antz




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                   B5A                          In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation        William Farone, PhD - Vol. I     10/4/00                      XMAX(3!3)

                    to get the i'; information from Dr. Osdene       determination of the particle size             normally t5` wouidn'tdo.
                    that you felt was (e) necessary for the work    !distribution or (7) particle size of things     (e)  One thing that the cell can do that
                   that you were doing in your (9) directorate?      like aerosols by use of a(e) technique        it (7, normally wouldn't do Is to enter
                     (io)   A. Not totally.                         !called light scattering where you could       into a sort of wild (e) growth which let's
                    ('-'-)  Q. Okay. Well, let's come back to       1(9) shine a little light an something and     just for the purposes of keeping (9) it
                   some of (:2 this later in some detail, butfor     determine like (o) for a smoke aerosol,       simple say that's carcinogenicity.
                   right now let me (i3) ask you to explain to us    you could determine the In particle size       (io)   In other words, carcinogenicity is
                   or describe to us your (14) educational           distribution.                                 a step in beyond mutagenicity.
                   background.                                       (.z)    And we also studied various other     Teratogenicity Is another (az) thing that
                    ('-5)   A. I graduated from high school          aspects (13) of the chemistry of              can happen. And that's a little more (i^)
                   in 1957. And (16) during that year I had          combustion, Subsequent -                      subtle. And that's where the chemical
                   participated In a project at (17) Syracuse        (1a)    Q. I was going to ask you to define   attacks the (ia) cell in such a way that a
                   University. The success of that project I         a couple rns) of words just to be sure that   defect Is passed onto the (15) next
                    (-e) think was responsible for getting me        everybody is on the (16) same page with       generation.
                   a scholarship (19) to go to Clarkson             you.                                            (16)   And that usually comes into play
                   University where I majored (20) originally        (17)   You talked about studying nitration.   when (17) you're talking about animalian
                   in electrical engineering, eventually (21)        (le) Would you tell us what nitration is.     reproduction or (1e) reproduction In
                   switched to chemical engineering and              (i 9)  A. It's the interaction of chemical    animals where you worry about what
                   chemistry.                                       compounds (20) with the oxidation               (19) happens to the next generation due
                   (22)     During my chemistry studies,             products or the chemicals from (21)           to a chemical (20) change that occurred
                   especially in (23 the last two years,            nitrates.                                      in the cells of the prior (21) generation.
                   received my bachelor of science (24) in           (22)   You have certain kinds of              (22)    Q. In layman's language would it be
                   1961, but we concentrated on a lot of            reactions in (23) soiution where nitrates      accurate (231 to say that if a substance is
                   courses (25( that are useful in the              can interact directly with (24) aromatic       carcinogenic it causes (24) cancer?
                   subjects we're going to                          compounds. And in the gas phase where          (zs)    A. Yes.
                                                                    you (-s) have oxides of nitrogen,
                                        Page 17                     nitrogen dioxide, nitric                                        Page 21
                     (1) discuss.                                                                               (a i   Q. Okay. Not everything that is
                     (2)    For example, I did my senior thesis                      Page 19                   mutagenic (2) causes cancer however?
                    in the (3) nitration of cyclic compounds,        oxide, nitrous oxide that can Interact     (3)   A. That's correct, not everything
                    of compounds similar (4) to compounds       in the gas (2) phase.                          that is ,4) mutagenic causes cancer,
                    found in tobacco smoke.                      (3)   Q. You also used the phrase              (5)   Q. However, if you're studying the
                     (s)   I did a course in natural product    heterocyclic (4) chemistry.                    impact of (e) cells of certain substances or
                     ;E: chemistry, a whole year course          (s)   Would you tell us what that is?         chemicals, if it's (7) not mutagenic, does
                    where we discussed (7) alkaloids like        (6)   A. Well, there are a lot of terms       that indicate one way or the (a) other that it
                    nicotine, their synthesis, their (e)        that one (7) hears like poly nuclear           is carcinogenic?
                    metabolism, and the properties of them      aromatic hydrocarbons and (s) poly              (9)   A. Well, If it's not mutagenic the
                    including (9) their pharmacology.           cyclic aromatic hydrocarbons and               usual (10) presumption Is that it can't
                    (10)     I took a course in keloid chemistryheterocycles.                                  directly cause. It (11) could still be a
                   where (ii I became Interested in              (5)   They're essentially talking about a    factor. It could still be a - it (12) could
                   aerosois, tobacco smoke as an (12)          class (10) of chemical compounds that           help other cells change the way that the
                   aerosol. Little liquid drops that are       have contained in them in benzene or           cell (13) grows.
                   covering a (13) little tiny solid nuclei,   naphthalene type of rings. These are            (14)     It could be like what we call a
                   inorganic particle. And (14) on the basis    (12) chemical compounds that have what code (15) carcinogen or it could be - it
                   of this my work in chemistry they (15)      we call conjugated (13) doubie bond            could be, but (16) normally speaking the
                   offered me the opportunity to go to         systems.                                       first strain is mutagen. If n7) something
                   graduate school.                             (14)    They're very stable. They have a      is a mutagen, then you worry about its
                    (lo)     So, I continued my education      low (ls) ratio of hydrogen to carbon. And (1 .e) potential for being a carcinogen. If
                   receiving a(il) master's degree In 1963,    they're of (' e) interest because many of      It's not a(=g) mutagen, you tend to feel a
                   my Ph.D. in'65. And (le) completed          these compounds have been (17)                 little better about that (zo) chemical.
                   actually the work for my master's degree    lmpiicated in carcinogenicity and               (zi)     Q. Okay. Now during this
                    (=9) in '62 and for the Ph.D. in'64.       mutagenicity.                                  educational years (22) that you've
                    (zo      And during the graduate period I   cie)    Q. All right. And that takes me to my described to us, did you work on any (23)
                   also had 1 zii the opportunity to study     next (15) term that I want you to define,      grants that dealt with aerosols or any other
                   heterocyclic chemistry (22) under a         carcinogenic or (20) carcinogenicity.          subject (24) related to your field?
                   fellow named Frank Pop who actually          (21)    A. When chemicals interactwith         (25)    A. Well, my Ph.D research was
                   was one (23) of the first peopie to         cells, there (22) are essentially three, let's paid for by the
                   synthesize chemotherapeutic (24) agents     call them, bad or (23) deleterious effects
                   in large scale for screening.               that can occur.                                                     Page 22
                    (zs)    And I took the course from him     (24)     First of . II, you can have what we    (.) National Defense Education Act. And
                   that talked                                 call a(2s) mutagen. And that's the             one of the (z) interests that they had
                                                               chemical Interact that                         was in the atmospheric (3) aerosol, that
                                      Page 18                                                                 is, the aerosol that's in the air (4) around
                        about the synthesis of those, also,                         Page 20                   the planet. And It was very early Interest
                   their ^z, carcinogenic potential, and what (1) causes a change in the cell. That cell      (^) in what we now would call air
                   was known at the (3) time about the         change (z) usually is not beneficial.          pollution.
                   mechanisms, chemical mechanisms of          Occasionally it can be, (3) but usually a      (5)     Q. Okay. Did your study include the
                    (4- carcinogenesis, mutagenesis.           mutagen or mutation is negative and (4)        study of (' ) what aerosols could be inhaled
                          I did my thesis concerning the ;e)  1 causes the cell to do something that it       or were respiratory?
                  Tooker & Antz                                                 (415) 512-0295                                            Page 16 to Page 22




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                BSA                           In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation          William Farone, PhD - Vol. I   10/4/00                         xMax(44)
                  (6)   A. Yes, they did. We measured the          along with techniques that I^e! worked        (5) of those things go hand In hand.
                 - what we (°^ call the particle size              on at White Sands to come up with a           There's no (6) tentative modern biology
                 distribution of aerosols. We (:o) have            simpler (9) way of measuring particle         that's dissociated from (1) chemistry.
                 large particles and you have small                size distribution.                             (°)   Q. In your education that you've
                 particles. (:) There's a distribution.             (1o)   One of the problems with the          described to (9) us those three degrees
                  (=.)   And depending on how the                  measurement (:.) techniques is that they that you have, were you (io) studying the             •
                 aerosol is ;:5) formed, you can have              invoived a lot of (12) mathematics and        interdiscipiine, the overlaps of those (i:)
                 different types of (.4) distributions. We         were very difficult to perform. A (i3)        three areas of chemistry and science?
                 would measure those (15) distributions.           colleague of mine at Virginia State by the (12)       A. Yes. I'm basically what Is
                 We studied the formation of the (16)              name of (14) Jay Raymond Hockinson            known as a (13) physical chemist My
                 aerosol through test systems.                     had an idea for simplifying (15) that.        degree actually Is In physical (14)
                  (17)   As a matter of fact my thesis              (1e)   And actually I started working with chemistry which Is the Intersection
                 advisor (=e) Dr. Milton Kerker was the            him on (17) that when I was at White          between physics (15) and chemistry.
                 editor of the Journal of (-9) Kelold              Sands. And we developed a(1e)                  (16)   When It's applied to either micro -
                 Interface Science. And he had great               methodology for doing It relatively           when (17) It's applied to living systems,
                 Interest (20) in the measurement of               simply. This (19) was in the period of        then It overlaps (ie) with biology. When
                 particle size distribution (21) going back        1965 to'67. And I had several (20)            It's applied to reactions that (19) might
                 to his Ph.D. days.                                graduate students working on that             occur on Jupiter or something like that,
                 (22)    So, we did a lot of work on               program.                                      then (2o) It overlaps with astronomy.
                 measuring them (23) and determining                (21)   Q. Did your air pollution studies      (21)   And in fact, if you look at the (22)
                 what fraction might be in what was (24)           include (22) identifying mutagens and         publications that we were Involved In, a
                 called the respirabie range.                      carcinogens --                                lot of what (23) we were doing was
                  (25)   For example, If particies are really       (23)   A. Well --                            applicable to those diverse (24) fields.
                 tiny,                                              (24)   Q. -- in the atmosphere?               (25)   If you are Interested In a
                                                                    (25)   A. In the atmosphere, well, the       distribution of
                                    Page 23                        point was
                                                                                                                                       Page 27
                  (i) you frequently inhale them and then
                 you exhale them. (2) They go in and they                             Page 25                  (=) tiny particles, It could be a
                 go out. If particles are really (3) large,        (1) Its much more complicated in the       distribution of smoke, (2) it could be a
                 they never get very far Into the lungs.           atmosphere because (2) some of the         distribution of cells, or It could be (3) a
                 They (4) can deposit In your mouth or in          particles, the particle sizes have (3)     distribution of particles In interstellar
                 yourthroat.                                       vastly different chemical composition.     space. (4) They are all chemical
                  (5)   So, there's a range in between the         (4)   So, we devised ways of collecting    problems that can be attacked (s) using
                 two (e) where they can get into your              various (5) particie fractions to          the same science.
                 lungs and have a high (7) probability of          determine which ones might (6) contain      (6)    0. Did your education and later on
                 staying there. That's the respirable (B)          certain chemicals.                         your (7) experience then deal in those three
                 range.                                            (7)    During that period I also had the   disciplines, (8) deal with the identification
                  (9)   So, we were Interested In making           (e) opportunity to be involved with the    and removal of mutagens (9) or
                 particles (io) of different sizes, size           biology and (9) pre-medical program at     carcinogens from various chemical
                 distributions, so that we (1i) would              Virginia State where there (io) was -- the compounds?
                 understand the physical chemistry of              Interest there was in the chemicals as      (10)    A. It dealtwith the Identification,
                 how that (12) happened.                           (11) opposed to the physics of the         the (11) chemical mechanisms of
                  (13)   Q. Either before or after you             aerosol distribution.                      formation, the understanding (12) of
                 completed your (14) Ph.D., did you become         (12)    And develop some -- I developed a how you could destroy them. So that
                 involved in teaching at the (is) college level?   graduate (13) course in biological         would be the (13) removal part, yes.
                  (16)   A. Both during and after.                 chemistry to help pre-med (14) students     (14)    Q. Did it deal with the effect of
                   17)   Q. Would you describe that for us.        and other students in biology sort of (15) various (15) chemicals or compounds on
                  nE)    A. During my Ph.D. program for            understand some of the issues related to cells?
                 one year I(-5) taught analytical                  chemicals.                                  (is)    A. Yes.
                 chemistry which is the part of (20)                (16)   Q. Is there a strong overlap        (zi)    Q. Living cells?
                 chemistry where one measures chemical             between biology (17) and chemistry?         (iE)    A. Yes, it did. Not any kind of
                 constituents ;==i with various degrees of          (ie)   A. Well, actually, there are only  cells. And (19) remember that were not
                 accuracy and precision.                           three ('-°) fundamental disciplines        restricted to discussing (zo) mutagens
                  (22)   Subsequent to receiving my Ph.D.,         chemistry, biology, and (20) physics. And or carcinogens. I mean, we also
                 I worked (23) for one year at White Sands         they're supported by mathematics.          discussed (21) and taught Issues dealing
                 Missile Range as an (24) atmospheric               (21)   And over the years we have         with regular metabolism.
                 scientist. And then I joined the (zs)             coined terms (22) like biochemistry          (22)   For example, how does sugar get
                 faculty of Virginia State University as an        which is essentially the (23) Intersection inside the (23) cell and how does it
                 associate                                         between biology and chemistry or (24)       metabolize and get out. So, (24) you
                                                                   biophysics which is the Intersection       look at all of the chemicals that make up
                                    Page 24                        between biology (25) and physics or         life, (25) the good ones as well as the
                   i) professor of chemistry.                      physical chemistry which Is the             bad ones. And you try
                  (2)   At Virginia State I received grants
                 from (3; the National Institute of Health                             Page 26                                        Page 28
                 and Research (4) Corporation to study,                 Intersection between physics and             (i) to understand how they're used or
                 again, the atmospheric (5) aerosol, air            chemistry. And (2) then we get like             how the cell Is (2) hurt by them. How
                 pollution kinds of things where we, in (6)         biophysical chemistry which kind of (3)         they're used beneficiaiiy or (3)
                 fact, used the techniques that we had              lumps it all together.                          negatively by cells.
                 developed in (%) my graduate work,                1(4)   So, the way that I look at It Is that all (4)    Q. And how long did you go on
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                  esA                         In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation       William Farone, PhD - Vol. 1      1014100                         xmnx(515)
                    teaching?                                    that were (3) made on food products.                                Page 32
                     (5)  A. I taught until 1967, the end of      Lever at that time sold Spry c4: which Is            toxicology part of it. I wasn't in --they
                    the school 1s) year of 1967.                 a vegetable shortening. They sold               would c^, - also be signed by the product
                    (7)   Q. And what did you do then?           Imperiai cs: margarine. And there was           developmentpeoplewho (3) were
                    (e)   A. In 1967 I went to work for Lever    Interest in a margarine e6 made from            developing the product, but all of the
                    Brothers !^; Company In the research         unsaturated fats that would help reduce         safety cai issues regarding those
                   and developmentdivision in (=0^                     cholesterol. So we got a little bit       products were done by the (5)
                    Edgewater, New Jersey.                       invoived in (e) that program in the             toxicology division under me. Dr. Ed
                     (:I)  Q. And tell us what your title and    beginning. I'il come back to (9) that a         Singer was the (6) manager of that
                   your job `=z) was there at Lever Brothers.    little bit later.                               division.
                    ci3i   A. Well, over the period of time I     (10)     Products like Lucky Whip which         (7)    And my signature on that was the
                   had c14> several Jobs and titles. The first   was a (i.) frosting topping. Mrs.                ce> corporation's okay that those tests
                   year or so I was (15) a project leader        Butterworth's syrup which is (12) a             were performed (9) the way that they
                   dealing with projects that Involved (16)      pancake syrup that people might be              needed to be performed. (10)
                   Aim toothpaste and Close-up toothpaste        famiiiar with. (13) As well as more of the      Underneath the guidelines laid out by
                   which were c17i two of the toothpaste         toothpaste products, Dove bar (14) soap,        either the clii Food and Drug
                    products that we manufactured. (ie) And      Caress bar soap.                                Administration or the Consumer Product
                   those are drugs because they contain           (15)    And we -- it was a small group.         (12) Safety Commission or whichever or
                   fluoride.                                     And our (16) Job was to try to relate the       the Bnvironmental (13) Protection
                    c19>   And my job related to how to          technology that was u7) coming out of           Agency, whichever governmental
                   study whether (zo) or not the fluoride        the taboratorywith the development clai         agency (14) that we were dealing with.
                   was more available to the cells (21) or       and marketing of those products.                And people reporting to (15) me dealt
                   whether it was removed through use of          (19)    Q. So, these new products were         with all those agencies.
                   the cz2 toothpaste.                           something that (20) you were responsible to      (16)    Q. Under your direction did Lever
                    (23)   For example, the object Is to get     test and determine whether (zi they would       Brothers do (17) safety testing with respect
                   the (24) fluoride in Intimate contact and     be harmful?                                     to constituents of their cie) products and
                   become a part of czsi the tooth. And so        (22)    A. Not at that point. My job at that   also with respect to whole products?
                   we would look at how the                      point (z3) was to make sure that the             c19)    A. Yes. Every product that we
                                                                 people who were testing (24) them, the          developed, c20i there's a tier of tests.
                                       Page 29                   people that were making the advertising         You don't just do one czi test. You look
                    cii particles that are In toothpaste how     (25) claims for them, and the people that       at all possible ways that the czzi product
                   they interacted (z) with the teeth.           were seiling                                    might enter Into Interaction with living
                   (3)    And I developed a Iightscattering                                                       c23 systems.
                   method (4) for determining whether or                             Page 31
                                                                                                                  (24)    And you try to determine what
                  not you were making (5) beneficial               cii them were all on the same page to         animal tests (zs) or kinds of tests that
                  changes In teeth, tooth enamel, through          make sure that it c2 was all coming           are available that can be
                   (e) the use of fluoride toothpaste.            together.
                   c7 i   I also worked on detergents. At that     (3)   Subsequent to that, I was promoted                       Page 33
                  time (e) Lever had introduced a                ,to (4) manager of detergentevaluation.            used. This could be things as simple
                  detergent called Drive to go (9) along          And in that job my (5 position was to       as irritation, (2) skin Irritation, eye
                  with Its All and Whisk detergents. And          develop the background for all the (6)      irritation. Where its (3) complicated Is
                  Drive (io) was one of the first detergents      advertising claims that Philip Morris       whether or not they cause cancer.
                  to contain enzymes.                             would make -- n not Philip Morris, but       (4)    And whenever we developed a new
                   (11)    Enzymes are extra cellular             that Lever Brethers would ca> make          chemical csi compound which we did or
                  chemical (12) compounds generated               about It products.                         ,came up with something that (e) had
                  from what could be microbes. In (^3) this        (9)   And Lever Brothers had a whole       never been used before, then we would
                  case it was from microbes, micro                raft of '1oi these products. And we         run a c>> series of carcinogenicity tests.
                  organisms, or (=a ) it could be human           wanted to make sure that any r-i             (8)    You'd start off with one that lasted
                  enzymes. It could be from any (1s)             ,advertising claims that were made were      like (9) 90 days and then you'd go to one
                  number of sources.                              accurate. nz:^ So, wewouid devise           that lasted three (io) years or more. The
                   c- eAnd the Idea was to use these              experiments very extensive ones (13) to     protocols for those tests were 111)
                  chemicals c:>> that are generated In            support the claim.                          usually discussed and cleared with the
                  living systems to be able to (iB) clean          c14    Finally in 1972 I was promoted to   appropriate c12i government agency like
                  clothes better. So, we were - and I was        .director (1-) of scientific research as     F.D.A. or B.P.A. or whoever (13) might be
                   c15 involved in that.                          distinguished from c16> director of         interested in it to make sure that they
                   (20)    After a year or so I was promoted      marketing research. There were two c7)       (14) agreed that that test protocol was
                  to c21i manager of the new products             directors.                                  okay.
                  division.                                        cie>   And in that position Iwas            (15)    Then we would do It two ways.
                   (22)    Q. What was your responsibility        responsible for cl9 all of the testing,     We would do (ze) It Internal to our
                  there?                                          Including the microbiology, c20>            company. And we would also (17)
                   c.13>   A. I was responsible for              Itoxicology, toxicity, carcinogenicity,      commission an outside laboratory to do
                  generation of all of (24) the new               mutagenicity, ez, etcetera.                 an (la) Independent corroboration of
                  products that Lever mightwant to get             cz2    Q. In your time at Lever Brothers,  that so that we would cu9i have our data,
                  into. czs This inciuded hair shampoos,          were you ;z3i in contactwith the F.D.A. or  their data, and it would have all (2e)
                  toilet bars, cosmetics,                         the F.T.C.?                                 been discussed with the appropriate
                                                                 1 (24)   A. Intimately. Myjobentailed        regulatory (21) agency to make sure that
                                   Page 30                       I signing the ^^5) applications that were    everybody was in agreement (zz) that
                   u; food products.                              made with regard to the                     the results indicated that the material
                   cz   We had several new product tests
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                  was 2=: safe.                                  (22)   So, we would refine those oils.      (2z)  And Dr. Gannon was the director
                  (<<j   Q. How long were you at Lever          And we (23) wanted to make sure that         of new (z3) product development and
                  Brothers?                                     those chemicals didn't end (24) up in the    processing at that time.
                  ;-5,A. Let's see, 1967 through '75, so,       part that we sold, but they ended up in      (24)  And I talked to Mr. Resnik who
                  eight                                          (z5) the part that we through away or       was the (-5) overall director of research
                                                                treated.                                     and development.
                                     Page 34
                  ;) years.                                                          Page 36                                        Page 38
                   (2)   Q. And where did you go after that?      (1) So, we were Involved in the                 (i) Dr. Wakeham who Is the
                   (^ )  A. I became vice-president of           identification (2) of those compounds           vice-president of (z) research and
                  research and (4) development of Pacific        and in the removal of those (3)                 development.
                  Vegetable 011.                                 compounds from the product.                      (3)   Dr. Eichorn who was one of the
                   (5)   Q, Did that make you their top           (4)   Q. All right. Now, at some point did     senior (4) managers.
                  scientist?                                      (5) representatives of the Phillips Morris      (5)   Dr. Dunn who was the head of the
                   (6)   A. Yes. I was the head of the           Company come (6) to you recruiting you to        (6) behavioral psychology program.
                  whole R & D(7) department.                     go to work for them?                             (7)   I think those are the ones that I
                   (e)   Q. And what was P.V.O„ what kind         (7)   A. Well, In I think it was the end of   talked (e) to,
                  of co mp any (9) was that?                     1975, (e) yeah, towards the end of 1975,1        (9)   For example, I wasn't supposed to
                  (10)    A. P.V.O. actuallywas                 was contacted by an (9) executive               _ 1(10) could talk to Mr. Resnik and Dr.
                  headquartered In (11) San Francisco,           search firm that said that they had an         Wakeham about the (ll) future, but the
                 California, And they were a(i2)                 (io) Interesting opportunity. And what         other people I wasn't supposed to (1.z)
                 vegetable oil company processing               turned out to (ii) be --in the beginning, I     talk to about the future, what I might be
                 vegetable oil Into (13) final products that    didn't know who their ciz) ciientwas, but       doing In (13) the future.
                 were then sold to people like (14) Lever       eventually It turned out to be ns) Philip        (ia)    Q. Did you have an opportunity to
                  Brothers or Proctor And Gamble or Smith        Morris.                                        meet with (15) some of the top
                 Klein (15) Pharmaceutical Companies.            (14)    Q. Did they give you any indication    management of the company?
                  (ie)    So, it was a step removed from        of why (15) they were interested in you for      (16)    A. Well, I met with Dr. Sellgman
                 the direct (17) consumer product, but we       Philip Morris?                                  In New York (i7) City. Or. Seligman It
                 supplied the chemicals that cie) went           (16)    A. Yes. My background in both          was told to me at that time (ie) was
                 into these products. And these products        consumer (17) products and things that          going to go Richmond to replace Dr.
                 had to (19) be manufactured under              we were just talking about (le) matched         Wakeham. (19) And he was going to be
                 certain protocols laid out by (20) the         what Philip Morris needed,                      my superior should I accept (zoi the Job,
                 appropriate regulatory agency like the          (19)    For example, the work on aerosol        (21)    And during the discussions with
                 Food and (2i) Drug Administration.             chemistry (20) fits very nicely into            122) Dr. Seligman In New York I met Cliff
                  (22)    If you're going to use something In   studying and understanding (21)                 Goldsmith. (23) Mr. Goldsmith who at
                 the (23) food, for example, and claim          cigarette smoke because it's an aerosol.        that time I believe, If I(za) recall
                 that it's okay for use (24) In food, you       And my (22) work at Lever Brothers fits         correctly, was president of Philip Morris,
                 have to comply with something called           very nicely into (23) determining the           (25) U.S.A.
                 (25) good manufacturing practice, G.M.P.       safety of products and whether or (24)
                                                                not that you can improve the safety of                               Page 39
                                    Page 35                     products.                                        (1)    Q. Now, what did you learn was
                  (1) And if your data Is going to support       (25)    Q. Before being or before deciding     from these (2) people their purpose or their
                 those (2) kinds of claims that it's safe,      that you                                        interest in you was (3) based on; what is it
                 you also have to (3) comply with a thing                                                       that they wanted you to come to (4) Philip
                 called G,L.P., good laboratory (4)                                 Page 37                     Morris and do?
                 practice.                                       (i) wanted to go to Philip Morris, did you      (5)    A. Basically, there were two parts
                  (,)    So, we worked with the clients. At     have an (2) opportunity to talk to their        to it that (e) I discussed with the senior
                 P.V.O. (E1 we didn't do a lot of the animal    scientists and their (3) top management?        people, not with the (i) directors. It had
                 testing ourselves. i"i Those were done          (4)   A. I Interviewed both in New York        to do with helping them diversity (e) In
                 by our client companies, but we (6)            City and in (5) Richmond. And I think that      other areas.
                 would provide them with the G.M.P.             I talked to eight or (6) nine people that I      (y)    They felt that the industry was
                 product and (9) G.L.P. information that        met as part of the interview. (7) And I had     under (lo) attack. That It was likely that,
                 they could use as part of (io) their           an opportunity to discuss -- there was an       as I was told at (ii) the time, that they
                 submissions.                                    (e) interesting part of it.                    might see a deterioration in in their
                   in     Q. And among other things were         c 9)  I was told eventually that I was         sales over the next 5 to 10 to 15 years.
                 you looking u2; for the identification of      going to (10) be Involved because of my         They (13) might be regulated outof
                 carcinogens and mutagens?                      background In programs (11) that were           existence was one of the (141 things that
                  (13)    A. We wanted to make sure that        currently run by Dr. Tom Osdene, but            was put to me.
                 the products r.5; that we sold did not          (12) because that hadn't been decided           (15)    Q. Can you tell us who told you
                 contain any materials that were (15)           completely yet, (13) they didn't want me        that?
                 known to be carcinogenic or mutagenic.         to taik to Dr. Osdene and his (14)               (zs)    A. Dr. Seligman and Dr.
                  (i E)   For example, vegetable oil when       colleagues about that. And although I           Wakeham.
                 you (17) squeeze the vegetable like            could talk to rns) their superiors about It.     (:7)    Q. AII right.
                 soybean, you squeeze ('B) soybean to            (ie)    So, when I talked to Dr. Osdene,        (ia)    A. And that because of that they
                 get soybean oil, on that crop someone          (17) Dr. Gannon --                              needed to c19) diversify Into other areas.
                 may (19 have used some sort of                 (=°)     Q. And could you tell us who those     And because I had (20) experience in
                 insecticide or herbicide that (20) could be    people (i9) are?                                these other areas, they looked to me
                 mutagenic or carcinogenic. And actually        (20)     A. Dr. Osdene was the then              (21) to help them In a merger and
                 it (2-) shows up in the oil.                   director of (21) chemical research.             acquisition program.
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                  95A                         In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation       William Farone, PhD - Vol. I     10/4/00                       XMAX(7l7)

                    122Additionally, they said that they          chemistry of the (2> ) smoke aerosol and the (zo) record you'd find out that the
                   wanted (23 to Improve the safety of their I the chemistry of the constituent (22           I questions that he is (zi) answering is the
                    product. At the time (za) that I was          components, including the                    one that I asked,
                   having these discussions, I had                pharmacology.                                 (22)    And in addition to that he is
                   concluded (24 that the cigarette aerosol, i(zs)         And so I was prepared to discuss    answering (23) and filling in the blanks that
                   the smoke was both                           i specific (za topics with them. For           you suggested were (24) missing. So that
                                                                 exampie there was a lot of (25) literature essentiailywhat he has done has (zs been
                                       Page 40                  jon certain specific chemicai compounds, responsive to you and I.
                    (i) toxic, carcinogenic and, you know,
                   was not a safe ;2 thing to be Inhaling at                          Page 42                                       Page 44
                   that point.                                     (1) phenols, benzene, these poiycyciic       (1)    MR. WEBB: I don'twant to belabor it,
                    (3)   And, therefore, the discussion was     aromatics.                                    but (z I'm just going to object to the
                   over (4) howwecan make this thing              (2)    And so in each of the places except narrative. He has (3) gone beyond your
                   safer and what we can do (5) to reduce        for (3) Mr. Goldsmith who wasn't              question. I object to the form of (< the
                   the hazards of that material.                 technically oriented, the (4) rest of these answer.
                    (6)   So, this seemed like to me a           people all had degrees in the (5)              (s)    MR. BROWN: What question do you
                   reasonable (7 program. That as you try        scientific area and had worked In it for a    think he (E) has gone beyond because I
                   to make your product as (a) safe as you       while.                                        should have an opportunity (7) to correct
                  can. And at the same time since you (9)         (6)    I would also mention that in 1965     that if you think so.
                   recognize that product may experience         through (7) 1967 when I taughtat Virginia (8(         MR. WEBB: If you go back and look
                   market (- odifficulties, you try to plan for State, Virginia State (8) is located In        at the (9) question, he has gone far beyond
                  a future where ciri you're not selling that Petersburg, Virginia. The American (9)           -- you asked him (10) what people said to
                   product.                                      Chemical Society Group that we                him in meetings. He has gone uii way
                   (12)    Q. In your discussions with these     belonged to at that (10) point was also       beyond that to talk about research that he
                  top (i3 scientists and/or managers, and tell attended by Philip Morris people. (11) So, did (iz) before the meetings and the
                  us who they n4 were with respect to this       I was aware of Philip Morris research         thought process that he ^13> engaged in.
                  question if you could, was (is) it understood going back (12) to the mid 1960's.            And that's what I'm objecting to.
                  that the cigarette smoke in the Philip (16)     (13)     So, we talked about the various      (14)    BY MR. BROWN:
                  Morris products was, in fact, causing          things (i 4) that they had been doing to       (15)    Q. All right. What I'm asking you to
                  cancer?                                        remove chemicals which (15) were              do, and (16) putting aside whether the
                   (17)    MR. WEBB: Well, I'm going to object known to them to be carcinogenic. And I         objection makes any sense (17) or not,
                   (12unless there's some foundation laid as      (i6 remember phenols. I remember            we'll just leave that for someone else to
                  far as who 19> he's talking to, time, date,    poiycyciic aromatic (17) hydrocarbons.         (is) decide, what you're doing now is
                  and place, et cetera. (20) Object to the lack   (18)     Q. Sometimes called P.A.H.?         describing to us (19) with time and place
                  of foundation.                                  (19)     A. Yes, sometimes called P.A.H.     and who told you what with (zo) respect to
                   czii    THE REPORTER: And your name,          because I was czo interested in their        their understanding of the carcinogenic (zi
                  please.                                        prospective on whether they (21) thought effect of their product's tobacco smoke.
                   (zz     MR. WEBB: Dan Webb for Philip        that they could remove them. How much          (zz)     A. That's correct. And what I
                  Morris.                                         (22) progress that they had made.           was also (za) trying to do was to lay the
                   (23)    THE REPORTER: Thank you.              (23)      And at that time Philip Morris had foundation for why I(za ) could have that
                  (24)     BY MR. BROWN:                          (24) Introduced Merit cigarette. And Merit conversation.
                   (25)    Q. Go ahead and answer the           was their (25 major entry into this low        (25)     As I understood It there was an
                  question, butfill                             tar segment. And each one                     Interest

                                      Page 41                                          Page 43                                        Page 45
                   ni in the blanks that Mr. Webb just            (1 of them --                                   n; in my having some foundation for
                  suggested that he (2) needed to be filled in.   (z    Q. These people that you've named? having that (2) discussion In the first
                   (z     A. Yes. Well, It's pretty simple,       (3)   A. -- that I've named. And I can go      place.
                  actually, (4) because I discussed that         Into (4) specifically I think from               (3)   Q. All right.
                  subject with every one of (4) the people       recollection.                                    (4)   A. So my discussions of my prior
                  that I named earlier, Dr. Seligman, (e) Dr. (s^       Q. And to satisfy the time length,       research was (5 to show that when I
                  Wakeham, Mr. Resnik, Dr. Gannon, and           we're (E talking about in the recruiting        went to talk to them, I was (e)
                  Dr. Osdene, (7) and Dr. Eichorn.               process that took n place in somewhere          knowledgeable about what questions to
                   (e)    Q. And what was the effect of what     in, what, the late '75 to the --                ask. So, with (7) some sort of scientific
                  they told (g) you on the subject of whether     (e)   A. No. This would be early 1976,         intelligence, I could ask (a) about
                  Philip Morris products cnai were known to      January, (9: February. Ijoined them at          specific compounds and specific
                  them to be causing lung cancer?                the end of March. So, (io) it was before        products that (9) they were marketing.
                   (i-)    MR. WEBB: Object to the form of the that. And I took several weeks to rnii            (10)    Q. And did you?
                   (12) question as calling for a combination of decide.                                         (11)    A. And I did.
                  responses r.3 from multiple people.             (12)   Q. Okay.                                (12)    Q. And you did with who?
                   (14)    BY MR . BROWN:                         r.3    A. So, it would have been early         (17)    A. And I did that with Dr.
                   (=5;    Q. With each area tell us what you    1976.                                           Seligman, all (14) except Mr. Galdsmith.
                  were told ce to identify and the person who (14)       Q. Okay. Go ahead.                      Dr. Seligman who I talked to (15) In New
                  told you that.                                  (is    MR. WEBB: Can I interpose an            York. And then in Richmond with Mr.
                       )   A. Okay. Let's start with the         objection        just right now the witness has Resnik, uE, Dr. Wakeham, Dr. Osdene,
                  conversations (.a In New York that I had gone so far beyond n7i the original question Dr. Gannon, Dr. Eichorn, in and Dr.
                  with Dr. Seligman. Before I(i9) took the       -- what is the question that (ie he's being     Dunn. With Dr. Dunn I went further than
                  interview, I did my home work. I did a         asked right now?                                (is) that.
                   (20) literature search concerning both         (is)   MR. BROWN: I think if you look at       n91     Q. All right.
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                  BsA                                  In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation           William Farone, PhD - Vol. I       10/4/00                         XMAX(818)
                       (_1 -    A.  But the basic point of my             wasthat (l%) vice-presidency?                      about all of cigarette technology and
                      answer was that (21) the discussions                  (,-°)     A. Well, the prior person who           (-7) everything that they were doing, not
                      centered around Merit cigarette (22)                 held that (19) position was Or. Helmut            only in the (ne) research and
                      because they had introduced a low tar             i Wakeham who I Interviewed.                         development department, but also In the
                     cigarette on (z') the market called Merit.            (20)       Q. Okay.                                (19) manufacturing facilities.
                     And Merit was a low tar (za) cigarette                (21)      A. And Dr. Wakeham was                   (20)    And he arranged for me to tour at{
                     that was said to have enhanced flavor.                promoted to a more ^zz) senior position           the (zi) manufacturing facilities,
                      (25) Why low tar? Okay. Low tar because within the company. The (23)                                   everything from the (22) stemmery. I
                     less tar was                                         vice-president of research and                     even went out on field trips where they
                                                                          development at Philip (24) Morris, U.S.A.          (23) bought tobacco. The idea was to
                                            Page 46                       reported to an executive (zs)                      become totally (24) famiiiar with
                      (1% considered to be less potentially               vice-president of Philip Morris, U.S.A.,          everything that the company did in (zs)
                     carcinogenic.                                        who                                                making cigarettes right from the time
                      (2)     Q. And this is what they were telling                                                         that tobacco
                    you?                                                                         Page 48
                      (3)     A. This Is what they were telling            (1) reported to the president of Philip                               Page 50
                     me.                                                  Morris, U.S.A., (z) who reported to the            (1) is purchased or grown actually on
                     (4)      And what I wanted to know was               president or a senior (3) vice-president          through. The (2) company didn't grow
                    specifically (s) with regard to some of              and Philip Morris, Incorporated, at (4)            tobacco, but they knew a lot (3) about it.
                    these chemicals that they had (6)                    that time. So that was the hierarchy.               (4)    And the Idea being that when I was
                    identified and that the science had                   (5)      Q. All right.                             (5) promoted to director, that I wouid be
                    Identified as (7) being not nice to have In           (6)      A. The staff position that Dr.           able to use (6) that information to try to
                    smoke, what the levels of (e) reduction              Seligman had (7) held in New York was              integrate our research (i) programs
                    might have been and how It was done.                 generally a liaison position. (e) It was a         more closely with the manufacturing.
                     (5)      Q. All right. What did they tell you?      vice-presidential position, but it was a           (e)     It's one thing, for example, to come
                    (10)       A. They said that, basically, they         (9) liaison between senior management             up (9) with a new way of doing
                   had in reduced the tar ievel from an                  In New York and (lo) the research and              something. It's another (io) thing to
                   average at that time (12) of about 18                development department in Richmond,                come up with It and know how to
                   milligrams per cigarette using the (13)                (11) Virginia.                                   actually (11) put it Into practice in the
                   Federal Trade Commission measurement (lz)                         Q. Okay.                              manufacturing division.
                   down to (14) something in the area of                 (13)        A. So, Dr. Seligman was moved          (12)     So, if you have knowledge of how
                   nine to ten.                                         from NewYork (14) to Richmond to                   the (13) manufacturing is done, then that
                    (15)       And that most of the chemicals           replace Dr. Wakeham. And Dr. Wakeham makes it easier for (14) you to help
                   compounds (1 .6) were reduced In                      (15) went to New York in a new position.          translate a research finding into a(=s)
                   proportion to that reduction In tar. (17)            He didn't (le) actually move to New York, final product.
                  We talked a little bitabout exceptions to             but he was no longer in (17) the hierarchy (16)              So, that first year I spent touring
                  that (le) where the filter might take out a of Richmond.                                                 all (17) the projects and learning as
                  little more than (19) that percentage                  (18)       And Mr. Resnik who was the             much as I could and (ie) making
                  taiked about.                                        director of (19) research and                       suggestions to Dr. Seligman and the
                   (20)        Q. All right. And did that discussion   development under Dr. Wakeham went to directors (19) and the managers about
                  -- (2 1) those discussions that you were               (zo) New York to take the job that Dr.            things that they could do (zo) with their
                  talking about also zz) involve whether this          Seligman had in (21) New York. So, it               projects.
                  reduction in tar had been (23) subjected to          was kind of a musical chairs (22)                 1 (21)      Q. During that flrst period of time
                  tests by them to determine whether the (24)          arrangement.                                       before (z2) you went onto your next
                  cigarettes were less carcinogenic?                     (23)       Q. And then did Dr. Seligman when position, did you have (23) occasion from
                   (25A. Not during the interview                      he went to (24) Richmond and became the            time to time to talk with the various (za)
                  process.                                             vice-presidentthere, he was (zs) essentially scientists with respect to what they were
                                                                       the top scientist with hands-on control            doing and (25) offer your advice as to how
                                          Page 47
                                                                                                                          they might be able to do
                   ;=)       Q. Aliright.                                                      Page 49
                   (z)       I guess at some point you decided                  of the research?                                                Page 51
                 that you 13 were going to go with Philip                         A. He was the senior responsible         (i) it differently, better, whatever?
                 Morris?                                               person for (3) approving or disapproving (z)                A. Yes, I did. I not oniy talked to
                  (4)        A. Yes, I did. It was, I think, if I     the research programs at (4) the                    them, (3) but I attended the meetings. An
                 recall (s) correctly, In the early part of            research center, usually In conjunction            associate principle (4) scientist at that
                 March of 1976.                                       with the (5) directors.                             time was equivalent to a(s) managerial
                  (E)        Q. And what was the first assignment (6)             Q. Okay,                                level, but unlike most of them, I didn't
                 that (7) they gave you?                               (7)        A. And I reported directly to Dr.        (6) report to a director. I reported
                  i e;       A. Well, the first assignment at the Seiigman (8) for -- well, for the next four             directiy to (7) Dr. Seligman, but I was
                 time (9) that I joined them, the changes             years, yeah.                                        actively Involved in the (e) research
                 that had been told (-o) to me were going              (9)        Q. Okay. Now, you.were about to tell p rog ra ms.
                 to happen, happened. That is, in Dr.                 us, I(io) think, what it is that you actually did (9!        1 co-authored some papers with
                 Seligman had moved from New York to                  when you in first got there.                        some of the (10) research scientists and
                 Richmond to (-z) become vice-president (=z)                        A. Dr. Seligman said that for the     helped them understand the in
                 of research and development.                         first year in that I was there, I                   chemistry.
                  (13)        Q. Describe for us what that means mentioned earlier that I heid (14) the                   (12)      For example, I have two
                 in terms (:a of their hierarchy.                     position called associate principle                 publications that (13) deal with the
                  ^'-s        There are a lot of different (16)       scientist. in And Dr. Seligman wanted               reactions of nicotine. And those were
                 vice-presidents in the world; how important          me to go learn as much as I(16) could               (14) started during that, that first year
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                  asA                           In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation           William Farone, PhD - Vol. I       10/4/00                        xmnx(91e)
                  period where I 15) was able to                     the nicotine to (14) tar ratio.                   record, the rn -ii exact date on which that
                  contribute the physical chemistry part              (15)   So, we discussed the increase In          test was given.
                   c:d% of the paper to the organic chemists        nicotine c.6 to tar ratio. In Merit cigarette     clei     And subsequently starting from
                  who were        working on it who didn't           one of the ways cA") thatwas                      March 31st c19i or thereabouts in 1976,
                  quite understand the (ie) reaction                 accomplished was through the use of               as I say, I probably met c20; with him
                  kinetics.                                          higher (ie alkaloid tobacco, burley.              and his people two or three times a
                  (i °)   So, I was able to explain to them           c=9    So that if you look at the ratio of       month, (21) probably for the duration of
                  from a c=e) physical chemistry point of             (zo) nicotine to tar in Merit, it's higher       my career there.
                  view how nicotine (21) actually reacted.           than in some (21) of the high delivery             (22)   And over the period of that time In
                  (22)    Q, Okay. During this period of time        cigarettes at that time,                          the (23) beginning, the conversations
                  did you c22i have contact with Dr. Dunn?            (zz)   So, we talked about how the tar If       were with he had (24) Dr. Carolyn Levy.
                  c24     A. I spent a lot of time with Dr.          you (23) continued to lower the tar from         And later he had hired Dr. Frank (25)
                  Dunn.                                              nine to seven to (24) five, what would be         Goleta.
                  c2s     Q. Tell us who he was and what his         the right ratio of nicotine to (25) tar so
                  general                                            that the person would keep smoking It                                    Page 56
                                                                     because                                              (1)    Q. They were_present for some of
                                     Page 52                                                                             these?
                    (1 area was at Philip Morris, at least at the                           Page 54                       (2)   A. For some of those
                   time that (z) were talking about now this           r.; If it didn't have nicotine In it, most        conversations. (3) Generally speaking, I
                   first year.                                        likely they (2) aren't going to smoke It.          would have meetings with --1 c41 helped
                    c3i    A. Well, during the first year and at       (3)     Q. And this was in Dr. Dunn's area of Dr. Levy. I'm trying to think of the young
                   the (4) time of my interview, Philip Morris         w expertise?                                       (5) lady's name who was her assistant. I
                   was In my (s) opinion at least at that time         (5)     A. Dr. Dunn, yes, he was doing            remember their (6) first names, but
                   I felt it was unique (6) in having a               work, for (6) example, they had tests              anyway.
                   behavioral psychologist on staff.                  done where they had (7) cigarettes                  (7)   There were two assistants that she
                    (7)    i mean, as part of the Merit               denicotinized. They removed all of the             had who (8) were doing the - they would
                  campaign they (e) had behavioral                     (e) nicotine from the cigarettes. And then interview subjects. c9r Theywould
                  psychologists. And Dr. Dunn was (9)                they put c91 different levels of nicotine           deprive them of cigarettes. They would
                  there behavioral psychologist that they             back In. And they (10) would give it to             clo putthem through various
                  sort of cio advertised of what was                  people and try to access where it (Xl)             psychological tests. And I (li) would
                  making them unique.                                 became acceptable.                                 help them analyze that data during the
                   (11)      So, I spenta lot of time talking         (12)      Q. And these were studies that had first (iz) year that it took place. And
                  with (12) Dr. Dunn and going over his              been ci>> conducted by Dr. Dunn?                    subsequent to that -
                  conclusions and work (13) that he had               (14)      A. Yes.                                   (13)    Q. I'm not clear that I follow that.
                  done on nicotine and smoking and why                c is>     Q. And he told you about them?            (14)   This was data from the test smoking
                   c14 nicotine was the reason why people             c16       A. Oh, yeah. They were reported         with 115) different levels of nicotine?
                  smoked. And the (zs) levels of nicotine            and you can r.>> read about them, yes.              (16)    A. Different levels of nicotine,
                  that he felt and that his people (i6) felt          (18)      Q. Did he tell you or discuss with      things like (17) consumer questionnaires
                  were necessary to maintain dependence              you what (is) that levei of nicotine that was      about how much people (18) smoked,
                  and c17 things of that sort.                       necessary in order (20) to maintain the            and when they smoked, and when they
                   (1e)      So, I would say at least two or         dependence?                                        stopped, (19) and whether they smoked
                  three c19i times a month I would meet               (21)      A. Yes.                                 a high delivery or a low (zo) delivery
                  with Dr. Dunn or his (2o) people and                (22)      MR. WEBB: I'll just object if this is a cigarette. How they reacted to low (21)
                  discuss these subjects. I was even e21              c23 specific cnnversation, I'll object to it as   delivery cigarettes provided them a lot of
                  Involved in personally analyzing some of           lack of (za) foundation as far as when the         advice.
                  the data c221; that they collected from            conversation took (25) place and who was            (az)    They collected a lot of
                  various volunteers and (23) various test           present.                                           information on how (23) people smoked.
                  subjects that they worked on.                                                                         Mr. Frank Ryan, Peggy Martin was in
                   ;<<)      Q. You said that you discussed with                           Page 55                       (z4) that group. And Mr. Ryan did a lot of
                  him the r5i level of nicotine that would be         (1)     BY MR. BROWN:                             work in that (25) period of time. The
                  required to maintain                                (2)     Q. He would like to know who was          period of time that we're
                                                                     present c3 during the conversation and
                                      Page 53                        when it took place. And t4i I assume that                               Page 57
                       dependence; would you describe that           you're still in the first ten months (5) to a       ci, taiking about Is about 1977 to the
                 more; what do (2) you mean bythat?                  year?                                              1978 time frame.
                  (3)    A. Well, when you reduce tar In             c6       A. Actually, there were a lot of (7)       cz     Over how deeply people puffed.
                 cigarettes (4) like what they had done              conversations. The first conversation that How many (3) puffs they took per
                 with Merit, If you do csi nothing else, then        I had (e^ with Dr. Dunn on the subject             cigarette. They Introduced the (4)
                 what will happen Is that the tar (6) and            was during my ;y) interview. And that              concept of a puff by puff profile, that is,
                 nicotine will be reduced.                           wouid be probably January or (lo)                  notJust c5 how much nicotine do you
                  (7)    There was a prevailing school of            February of '76. The Philip Morris record          get from the cigarette, but (E) foreach
                 thought ce at that time that said, well, If         should (1-) show that very cleariy                 puff you take, how much nicotine do you
                 you reduce them c5; both and people                 because Dr. Dunn also gave a (12) sort             get (7) In that puff and whether it's
                 don't smoke the cigarette because It                of a psychological test.                           important to get more (e) nicotine In the
                  c-ci has got too little nicotine in it, then if    (13)      Q. To you?                               first puff than in subsequent puffs.
                 it is c=!; safer, If you have removed a lot         (iG       A. Yeah, to all employees. They           (9)    They also developed information
                 of carcinogens c:zi enough to make a                wanted to (=s) make sure that they fit.            that was (io) useful in the subsequent
                 difference, then you haven't done c131             iAnd so Or. Dunn gave me a 116)                     development of a device (zi) called the
                 any good unless you somehow increase                psychological test which should be on              human smoke simulator. They actually
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                 BSA                          In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation       William Farone, PhD - Vol. I        10/4/00                     xMAx(10110)
                   ,•=- measured how people smoked and          ^Everything seemed to be (15) correct.             In there so using It by some prescribed
                  then used that -^) information to             ; And to this day I don't think there's any         f17) methodology you maintain the
                   program a smoking machine to mimic           I(:6) evidence that usurps his work that           nicotine that the (=6) smoker wants or
                   (:<) the way that people really smoked.       says It's wrong.                                  needs.
                   (=1)    Q. Was that a machine that was         (i7)   So, It was accepted at that time           (19)   Q. Okay. Now, in your discussions
                  like the r.E F.T.C. machine?                   and I(xe) think still is accepted today that      with (,.o) either or, Dunn or you mentioned'
                   (11%    A. Essentially similar to the         without nicotine (19) In the cigarette            Myron Johnston, (2l) maybe you should --
                  Federal Trade (-e) Commission protocol         people probably are not going to (zo)             iet me ask you this.
                  machine. The difference Is that (19) you       smoke it. There's a very high level of             (22)   Who was Myron Johnston and how
                  change the number of puffs, the puff           scientific (21) certainty.                        did he (z3) relate to Dr. Dunn?
                  volume, and (zo) the duration of the            (22)   Q. And does there have to be a             (25)   A. Myron Johnston was an
                  puffs to match what you have (z'.) found       particular (23) level before they will continue   individual who was (25) affiliated with
                  experimentally people do as opposed to         to smoke it?                                      the research and development center.
                  this (zz) average that was used for the         (24)   MR. WEBB: Objection, foundation,
                  Federal Trade (23) Commission.                  (25)   BY MR. BROWN:                                               Page 62
                  (24)    Q. Did you come to an                                                                     (1) He worked at one point in Dr. Dunn's
                  understanding that the (25) Merit cigarette                         Page 60                      group. And at (z) another point he
                  nicotine delivery had been based in            (i)     Q. In your opinion?                       worked In the consumer evaluation (3)
                                                                   (2)   A. Well, In my opinion, and I think       division.
                                       Page 58                    that I(3) said It a bit earlier, that the         (4)   And Myron's job was to evaluate
                    (1) part on Dr. Dunn's study?                 cigarettes of the (4) time when I left there     data (s) compiled by outside sources.
                    (2)   MR. WEBB: Object to the form of the     is about two tenths of a(s) milligram            Why peopie switch (6) brands. Why
                    (3) question as lack of foundation to his     under F.T.C. methodology.                        people smoke. When they start smoking.
                   understanding.                                  (6)   Q. The F.T.C. machine?                     (7) When they quit smoking, if they do. If
                    (4)   BY MR. BROWN:                            (7)   A. Yes, but the F.T.C. machine            they quit, (e) what brand was It that they
                   (s)    Q. Go ahead. You can just answer        smokes that (e) way, but the problem is          were smoking when they (9) quit. Which
                  "yes" or (6) "no"?                              that you can give them a (9) lower level         brand did they switch from.
                   (^)    A. Yes.                                 and they will continue to smoke it, If (10)       (io)   This data was available to Philip
                     e)   Q. How did you come to that             they compensate for the amount of                Morris (11) and the other companies.
                  understanding?                                  nicotine by (ii) puffing harder or by            And Myron would study that (1-2)
                   (9)    A. Well, Dr. Dunn was an advocate occluding holes or by doing (12) things                Information and publish reports
                  of cioi maintaining as everybody               that give them a higher level of nicotine.        concerning the (13) trends among
                  accepted and at that time r x) even the          (13)   For example, theycouid smoke             smokers because this was important to
                 government was talking about an                 double the (14) amount of cigarettes to           (14) designing cigarettes and towards
                  increased (i2) tar to nicotine - increased get that level. It's not (15) that there has          knowing where your (15) markets were
                  nicotine to ta r(13 ) cigarette.               to be a given level by the F.T.C. and (16)        and where they were going.
                   (14)    So, this Idea of Increasing the       the machine. Its that there has to be a           (16)   Q. Is Mr. Johnston a Ph.D. or is he
                  nicotine (z5) to the tar ratio was widely      given (17) level of nicotine provided to          (17) Mr. Johnston?
                 discussed. And that was (16) the basic          the person during the (ne) course of the       (1e)     A. Yes, he's Mr. Johnston.
                  premise involved In putting the higher         day to maintain the nicotine.                  (19)     Q. Did Mr. Johnston's area of study
                   (17) level of burley tobacco In Merit.         (19)    Q. And the idea would be a delivery or work (20) include teen-age smoking?
                  (10)     It's not only Dr. Dunn, but had that of (20) nicotine which the smoker could         (2i)     A. Yes.
                 same (19) discussionwith Or. Seligman,          control by smoking (21) more or smoking        (22)     MR. WEBB: I'm sorry. Go ahead.
                 and Or, Osdene, and (20) Dr. Gannon,            deeper whatever?                               (23)     BY MR. BROWN:
                 and people testing the cigarettes.               (22)    MR. WEBB: I'll object to the form of  (24)     Q. Did Mr. Johnston write
                  (21 :    Q. And did all of these individuals   the (23) question.                            memorandums and (25) papers that were
                  (22) essentially tell you that it was Dr.       (24)    BY MR. BROWN:                        presented to management on the
                 Dunn's study c23; that at least in part helped (25)      Q. Go ahead.
                 them arrive at that ;24) point where they                                                                          Page 63
                 knew what the tar nicotine ratio (25 should                         Page 61                    (1) subject of teen-age smoking?
                 be in the Merit in order to maintain             (1)   A. I just was mentioning, the           (z)    A. Hedid.
                                                                 smoker does (2) control how much               (3)    Q. Were you present at any
                                       Page 59                   nicotine they receive. The purpose (3) of     meetings where (4) Myron Johnston
                  c.i dependence?                                Dr. Dunn's group was to understand how presented his conclusions as to (5)
                  (<)    A. Well, I don't think that Dr. Dunn the smoker (4) does that.                        teen-age smoking and its importance to
                 was (-) exclusively the reason -                 (59   Q. Okay.                               Philip (e) Morris, if any?
                  (4)    Q. Okay.                                 (6)   A. So that cigarettes when they         (7)    A. Yes, I was.
                  (s)    A. - but his studies, he was            were made (7) would not preclude the           (e)    UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We're
                 widely-held as (e) being expert In the          smoker from doing that. I(e) mean, the        having some (9) background here.
                 area. And he was listened to (7) very           idea was to give the smoker the nicotine       (io)     Can we take a break pretty soon?
                 intently by everybody In the research and (9) and remove the carcinogens.                      (1i)     MR, BROWN: Yeah. Let's just go
                  (e) deveiopmentdepartment.                     (10)    The same type of logic was being      another (12) minute or two. I don't know if
                  (9)    And he also interacted with people      used In (11) the pharmaceutical Industry      it's possible to (13) shut that door the way
                 that c_c) kept track of what people             at the time. For (12) example, they had       that it's setup over there.
                 actually did, that is, (ii) people like         nicotine gum. Well, how much (13)              (14)     Do you want to take a break?
                 Myron Johnston who wrote reports r.z,           nicotine do you put in gum.                    (is     THE WITNESS: Sure.
                 analyzing data on how smokers behaved. (14)             So, you have to find for the           (16)     MR. BROWN: All right. We can take
                 (:-,There was no evidence to refute             particular (is) nicotine vehicle that you     a (17) breakhere.
                 any of (:4; Dr. Dunn's assertions.             .use, how much nicotine n61 that you put (18)           THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the
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                   e5A                           In re: domplez'^lsbestos Litigation          William Farone, PhD Vol. I          10/4/00                   xMa.x(nn1)

                    record at r.9i 11:17. czoi                         before you're, say, 19 or 20 years old,           thing, c.a; Counsel.
                    ,2-'.   (Discussion held off the record.) (-2)     then you (23 have a higher likelihood of           (25)    MR. WEBB: Objection, lack of
                    (23)    THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back               being a smoker for a(2a longer period             foundation.
                    on the c2. ^ record at 11:37.                     ,of time.
                                                                       ;25In other words, the likelihood that                                  Page 68
                     z=;    BY MR. BROWN:
                                                                       you're                                            1i         MR. BROWN: Let me confirm with
                                           Page 64                                                                         that.
                                                                                             Page 66                        (2)     BY MR. BROWN:
                     (.)    Q. Dr. Farone, I was asking you
                                                                         c1^ going to quit subsequently is reduced. (3)             Q. You're talking about the Richfield
                     about Myron cr; Johnston.
                            I think that's his first name is Myron      And the (2) preference for Marlboro -              -- the i 4 Richmond meetings, '81, '83,
                      4 Johnston?                                        (3)   MR. WEBB- I'm going to object for the Myron Johnston and the c5 other
                     cF                                                 (4) record. That the witness has gone so far gentleman from New York whose name was
                           A. It's Myron Johnston.
                     (e^                                                beyond (5) your question at this point as far
                            Q. And he, I think that you told us,
                                                                        as you asking him (e what people said to            (6)     A. Jon Zoler, J-0-n, Z-o-I-e-r.
                    that he cii had done some work in the field
                                                                        him. I object to this point to (7) the answer       (7)     Q. Okay.
                    of teen-age smoker?
                     (8)                                               going beyond the question.                           (e)     A. And at these meetings both of
                           A. He tracked smokers. And
                                                                        (8)    BY MR. BROWN:                              these (9) gentlemen would make
                    Myron was the (9) person who at R & D,
                                                                        (9)    Q. Are you describing to us what Mr.        presentations. Myron Johnston (10)
                    he had a counterpart in New (10) York, a
                                                                       Johnston (io) said and what this other              made presentations from the viewpoint
                    fellow name Jon, J-o-n, Zoler, Z-o-l-e-r.
                     (i i)                                             gentleman from New York (ll) said to you           of his (ii) analysis at R & D. And Mr.
                             And they would frequently present
                                                                       in the meetings and wrote in papers and            Zoler made his (12) presentations from
                    at the (12 Richmond meetings their
                                                                        c iz that type of thing?                          the aspect of his position In New i13)
                    analysis of the various (13 Philip Morris
                                                                        c13     A. Yes. And I think the only extra        York City in the marketing area.
                    cigarette brands and what was (14)
                                                                       thing (14) that I put in was the fact that I        (14)      So, we would here two different
                    happening in the marketplace. And
                                                                       haven't seen any (15) subsequent                   views on (15) the same subject. And the
                    teen-age smokers (15) were an Important
                                                                       refutation of what they said, but this c16         issue at hand was that (zs) the Marlboro
                    part of that story.
                    (i e)    Q. Did Mr. Johnston and/or anyone         came out of their reports and discussions was preferred among teen-age smokers.
                                                                       thatl (17) had.                                     (F7) And that was important for the
                   else at (17) Philip Morris in your experience
                                                                        (ie)    MR. WEBB: In light of your question,      future of the brand.
                   there explain or (1e) describe in effect what
                                                                      just (19) for the record, I object. If you're        c1e       In the 1981 time frame there was
                   the importance of teen-age (i9) smoking
                   was to Philip Morris?                               asking him to (zo) give oral testimony about a concern (19) that the overall usage of
                    (20)                                              what's in written reports, (21) then I object       cigarettes by teen-agers (20) might be
                             MR. WEBB: I'm going to object, lack
                                                                       on the grounds that those reports are (22)         decreasing. And I remember distinctly a
                   of (21) foundation as far as what meeting, et
                                                                      the best evidence. And he should not be              (21) meeting in'83 where Mr. Johnston
                   cetera, object (zz) to the question because
                   of lack of foundation.                              giving oral iz3 testimony about it.                analyzed and said (22) that trend has
                    (23)                                               (za)     I don't object to him testifying to what reversed. And so our future now 12-1:
                             THE WITNESS: Yes, they did. It was
                    1^4) written up in reports that I had access to    (zs people said to him in the meeting, just        looks better than it did two years ago.
                                                                      for the                                             (za)       Q. And what, if anything, did they
                   and also (zs meetings that I attended
                   including Richmond                                                                                    say in (25) effectto tie directiyteen-age
                                                                                            Page 67                      smoking to future
                                       Page 65                         ci record.
                                                                       (2)    BY MR. BROWN:                                                    Page 69
                    (a meetings, approximately, in the 1981,
                                                                       c3     Q. Okay. Tell us what was said at           ci sales importance to Philip Morris?
                    1982 time z) frame, I think. The last one
                                                                      these (4) meetings.                                 (a)      MR. WEBB: Object to the leading
                   that I recall was (3) sometime in '83.
                    cai                                                (s)    And the Richmond meetings were the form of (3) the question. Object to the form
                           BY MR. BROWN:
                    (^)    Q. And what was the importance;            ones (6) that you referred to earlier. They        of the question.
                   what was (e) explained to you?                     were monthly and c' they occurred in                (4       THE WITNESS: They said that the
                    ^' )   A. At that time during my tenure at        Richmond and all of the scientists e and           use of -- (5) that the preference of Marlboro
                   Philip ^e) Morris is when the Marlboro             some of the managers from New York would i among young smokers (6) was the key to
                   brand overtook the (9) Winston brand as            be (51 attending.                                  the future success of that brand. i1 And,
                                                                       (10)    A. Correct. And the discussions           therefore, they wanted to make sure that the
                   being the dominant brand in the (10)
                   United States. So, Marlboro was                    and the r.i presentations at the meeting (e brand remained acceptable to the
                   increasing and (ll) Winston was sort of            and discussions were (12) over the                 young smokers.
                   going down.                                        importance of teen-age smokers to the               c9       BY MR. BROWN:
                                                                       (13) Marlboro brand and to the success             (io)      Q. Okay. Now, when in this first
                    1='-    And anything that would help
                   people (13) understand why Marlboro                of Philip Morris cia) continuing to gain           yearwhen (11) you first came a board
                   was going up and Winston was c_a;                  market share at the expense of (15)                Philip Morris and perhaps (12) even during
                   coming down was of extreme                         competitive products,                              your recruiting, did you come to (13
                                                                       (:6     There was a very strong desire to         understand or come to realize that the Philip
                   importance. And (15) Mr. Johnston and
                   Mr. Zoler pointed out at several of u6>            maintain (17) the preferabiiityof those- Morris (14) people that you were talking to
                   these meetings in the 1981 to the 1983             of Marlboro among the cisi young                   had an understanding (is) about what the
                                                                      smokers.                                           most important classes of carcinogens
                   time frame, (17) that Marlboro enjoyed a
                                                                       n°i     Q. And what was explained as the           (:= were in their tobacco smoke?
                   greater acceptance among nei young
                   smokers.                                           reason why (,10; young smokers were so                .'      A. That understanding
                    (=5)    And the conclusion at that time           important to future markets?                       developed over the ne period of time
                                                                        2=     MR. WEBB: And I object to lack of         that I was there. I'd say that it (=9) was
                   which I(-^don't know of any refutation
                   of in anything that (21) I've seen since            (=-) foundation as to who was speaking, et        fully formulated by 1980 or '81 In my
                   that time, if you start smoking c22                cetera.                                            mind in (20) terms of the discussions
                                                                       <<'     MR. BROWN: All of this is the same        that I had.
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                 esA                            In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation                 William Farone, PhD - Vol. I       10/4/00                       XMAX(12J12)
                          When I first went to -                        want, though, I'm not trying (24 ; to interrupt,     (I % So, there are two distinct areas.
                   «,     Q. Let me ask another question.               if we want an agreement that if he c25; gives (2)           First, in terms of your experience,
                          Whatwere the most important                   an answer that is unresponsive to your              your (3) observation, your hearing in
                  classes of =<, carcinogens in the view of                                                                 conversations from (4) various scientists
                  the Philip Morris people (zs) that you told us                              Page 72
                                                                                                                            and managers at Philip Morris, (s) what did
                  that you were talking to in terms                      (1) question, if we agree that's preserved to Philip Morris consider the four major (6)
                                                                        raise (2) later at trial or objecting to your       classes of carcinogens which were causing
                                        Page 70                         designations, I(3) won't interrupt you to do        lung c7) cancer in their product.
                    (1) of carcinogens?                                that.                                                 (B)    And please identify the person and
                    (z )  MR. WEBB: Object, lack of foundation           (4)   MR. BROWN: I think I would rather            the (9) time.
                   as (--) to time, date, place, and who's             have (5) you interrupt because if I think that        (io)    MR. WEBB: Object to the form of
                   present.                                            you're right, ( 6) I will go back and straighten the (ii) question and the repetition.
                    N;    THE WITNESS: The majority of (s)             out the form or the (7) question. If I think that (=2)        THE WITNESS: Dr. Osdene was the
                   conversations that I had on the subject was         you're wrong, I'll just (8) go straight ahead.       person (13) who was in charge of the
                   with the (6) following groups of people, Dr.         (9)    MR. WEBB: Let me just state on the          smoking and health program. (14) And Dr.
                   Thomas Osdene, (7) Dr. Robert Pages, Dr.             (10) record, I think under the procedures if        Osdene and I had frequent conversations
                  James Charles, Bob Carpenter, (e) William            he gives an (ii) answer that's unresponsive, (ns) about the various chemicals in
                   Kuhn, Bob Ferguson, Dr. Walter Gannon, a            I believe that's (12) preser.,ed as a matter of cigarette smoke that (ie) needed to be
                   (9) fellow named Leo Meyer, and both of my          law. But just so there's (i3) no confusion, I       removed.
                  superiors, (zo) Dr. Seligman in the early            will try to point that out.                          (17)     On the basis of the people who
                  time and Dr. Hausermann (11) times after              (14)     I object to the last answer as being      reported to (ie) Dr. Osdene and his
                  that, plus a gentleman who frequently (12)            (ns) unresponsive and move that it be              supervision of those people, it (is) was
                  discussed these topics who came from Philip          struck,                                             agreed among those people at that time
                  Morris, r.3) Europe. His name was Dr.                 (16)     MR. BROWN: I think questions as to that the (zo) classes of compounds and the
                  Helmut Gaisch, (14( G-a-i-s-c-h.                    form (17) are not preserved for the very             order in which I(21) discussed them, that
                   (is)    And whenever we had meetings                reason that they (1e) could be corrected.           is, the nitrosamines being the (22) most
                  concerning c16 this topic which was very              (19)    MR. WEBB: Right, but this is not for       dangerous followed by the aldehydes,
                 frequently, so, it's hard (17) to pin down one        (20) form. The objection is that the answer is followed (23) bythe polynuclear aromatics,
                  more than another, butwhenever we (le)               (21) unresponsive to the question that you         followed by the metals (24) was the order of
                 had meetings concerning the toxic effects of         asked. That's (22) not an objection to the          decreasing concern in the products.
                 the 119) chemicals in cigarette smoke, we            form of the question.                                (z5 )    And the programs that the research
                 discussed the (20) various classes of                 (23)     MR. BROWN: Well, that's true.             and
                 compounds.                                            (24)     MR. WEBB: That's all I'm saying. I
                  (21)     In the period of 1976 when I first went    think (25) that's preserved, but in light of                                Page 75
                  (22) there, the most important class of             your response, I                                     (i) development division entered into, by
                 compounds seemed (23) to be the                                                                          agreement (2) between Dr. Osdene and his
                 polynuclear aromatic hydrocarbons or (24)                                   Page 73                      people and the other (3) people like myself,
                 things like benzo (A) pyrene.                           .) will try to point out, there have been        was based on that understanding.
                  (2^1)    BY MR. BROWN:                              frequent (2) times throughout this deposition (4)            BY MR. BROWN:
                                                                      so far that (3) Dr. Farone goes way beyond           (s)     Q. So, that the work in your
                                      Page 71                         your question.                                      directorate was (6) aimed at identifying and
                        Q. All right.                                  (4)    I've tried notto make a big deal out of     eliminating the t7) nitrosamines, the
                        A. And then as I got there and                 (s) that, but the last answer is a good            aldehydes, the P.A.H,'s and the (e) metals?
                  talked more (3) and I realized from my              example of what (6) happened. So, I object           (9)     A. In the beginning, not identify,
                  experiences at Lever and plus (4) these            to the last answer and move (') that it be           but In (lo) removing. That was the hit list
                  people are talking to me, that even worse          struck. And you may proceed.                         of things that we (1i( would like to take
                  than (5) those classes of compounds                 (a)     MR. BROWN: All right.                       out of here. And those groupings r_z;
                 were the nitrosamines (e) which were the             (9)     MR. BROWN: Can we have an                   are not specific. And each one of those
                  most active in the tests that they (' ) ran.       agreement that (10) if one defendant                 groupings (13) there could be multiple
                   (e^  Followed by the class of                     objects that it's a good objection (ii) as to        specific chemicals.
                 compounds, let's (9) call them                      all so not all of us have to chime in since          (14)      Q. Okay. Now, switching to your
                 aldehydes, which Includes things like                (iz) there's about a dozen of us here.              opinion. (,s) From your background and
                  (1=^ formaldehyde, acetaldehyde,                    (13)      MR. BROWN: Yes. Stipulate to that.       your education, your work (16) experience
                 propioiaidehyde, (ii) crotonaldehyde.                (14)      UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes,                before and after you went to work for (=7)
                  nt     So, the first one are the                   and have it (15) retroactive.                        Philip Morris, and since then, what is your
                 nitrosamines. (13) The next are the                  (16)     MR. BROWN: No. Yes. We can                 opinion (1e) as to what the four major
                 aldehydes. After that comes the (14)                agree to (17) that.                                 classes of carcinogens are (i9) which
                 polynuclear aromatic hydrocarbons.                   (ie)     BY MR. BROWN:                             cause lung cancer in cigarette smoke?
                 Then comes (ls) various metals that                  (19)     Q. Okay. Out of an abundance of            (zo)      MR. WEBB: Object to the form of
                 might be Incorporated In the (=6)                   caution as (20) some lawyers say, let me            the (21) question, lack of foundation.
                 products.                                           ask this question directly (21) so that we can (22)            THE WITNESS: In the extensive
                         MR. BROWN: All right.                       get a direct answer from you on the (22)            reviewing (23) I've done of the documents
                     a)  Let me take you through those. And          classes.                                            from all of the (24) companies, their
                 give (.°) us a description from a chemical          (23)      In your experience at -- first I'm going research, plus the published (25) literature, I
                 standpoint.                                         (24) to ask you about your experience about have not found anything that changes
                  (z^;   I'illetyou object in a minute.              what they do. (2:) And then I'm going to ask
                         MR. WEBB: My only objection is that         you what your opinion is.                                                   Page 76
                 I'm       going to ask to strike the last                                                                (1) the order of those four materials in
                 answer as being (23; unresponsive. If you                                  Page 74                      terms of their (2) relative importance to
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                   BSA                            In re: Complex Asbestos Litigaiion        William Farone, Pho - Vol. I     1014100                        xMAx(13113)
                    carcinogenicity from smoking.                    (i) end up with carbon dioxide and            I isotopes (2) of metals of the most
                              BY MR. BROWN:                         water. That would be (2) complete              ;widelystudied one was (3) Polonian 210
                       l4)    Q. So, that would be nitrosamines     combustion and nitrogen dioxide. And If         which enters the tobacco or is (4)
                      first?                                         )3) it's incomplete, then you can make all deposited on the tobacco because of its
                       ^.!    A. That's correct                     other kinds (4) of chemicals.                   Inclusion in (s) the fertilizers that are
                       ;^.    Q. Then aldehydes?                    ^5)     And ifyou oxidized Ita little bit (6)    used,
                              A. That's correct.                    further, if you had more oxygen, instead          (6)  It's a degradation product of
                       cF;    Q. Polynuclear aromatic               of getting, (7) for exampie,                    uranium and (7) phosphate mines where
                      hydrocarbons?                                 acetaldehyde, you would get acyetic (e)          phosphate fertilizers come (a) from, you
                      (5)     A. That's correct.                    acid. So, the aldehydes are basically the       frequently find a small amount of these
                      „o)      Q. And the metals including          products (9) of Incomplete combustion.           (9) degradation products included. And
                     radioisotopes?                                 (ia)     Q. All right, now the P.A.H., the      they find their (•o) way into the tobacco,
                         1)    A. That's correct.                   polynuclear (ii) aromatic hydrocarbons,         either on the surface of the (ii) tobacco
                      r.z)     Q. All right. Now, let me take you  what are they and where they (12) do come or Inside the tobacco. And that's the
                     through c131 each one of those so from a      from in the cigarette smoke?                      (12) second class.
                     chemical standpoint you (14) can describe      (13)     A. The polynuclear aromatic             (13)   Q. Okay. I'm going to come back
                     for the court and jury what they are.         hydrocarbons are (14) also made during to ask you (i<) some detailed questions
                      (1s)     First nitrosamines, what are        the combustion process, but they're (is)         about how if it is possible (is) to remove
                     nitrosamines?                                 made preferably in the hot coal of the           these carcinogens from cigarette smoke.
                      (lb)     A. Nitrosamines fall into two       cigarette (16) where there's Insufficient         (16)   But let me just for now just ask you,
                     classes. in Generally speaking, one are air.                                                   did (17) your directorate undertake the
                     called tobacco specific us) nitrosamines (17)           So they're made by a process we        responsibility of (ie ) determining how to
                    which are chemicals that are found not         call (1e) pyrolysis as opposed to                remove these four classes?
                     c19) only but mainly In tobacco.              combustion. And they are (i9) things that (19)           A. How to remove them and how
                     (20)      They are specific to tobacco and    contain heterocyclic or polynuclear, It          to keep them (20) from being formed in
                    theyare (zi) caused by the interaction of (20) doesn't have to be heterocyclic,                 the first place, both.
                    alkaloids like (22) nicotine, cotinine         rings, inciudes (21) things like benzene,         (21)   Q. All right. Let me switch slightly to
                    nornicotine with nitrates or (23) their        toluene, xylene, biphenyl.                      the (zz) relationship that you had with Dr.
                    degradation products.                           czz)     There are a whole bunch of            Tom Osdene. Over (zs) that period of time
                     (24)     The degradation products of          compounds that c22) are made that way. I think that you've described (24) what Dr.
                    nitrates are (25) nitrogen dioxide,           And they're made at high (24)                    Osdene's role was.
                    nitrogen oxide, and nitrous oxide,            temperature preferably. So if you burn            (25)    Would it be fairto say that it was
                                                                   something (25) really hot and you burn it
                                           Page 77                in the absence of air,                                                Page 81
                     (1) and nitric oxide, also. So, those                                                          (1) essentially in biological research?
                    compounds (2) Interact to form these                                 Page 79                    (2)    A. Yes.
                    tobacco specific (3) nitrosamines.             (i) sufficient air, you'll have pyrolysis        (3)    Q. And biological research that
                     (4)     Q. All right.                        and you'll (z) make these compounds.             covers what (4) the - whether there was
                     (5)     A. Those same nitrogen                (3)     Q. And what is pyrolysis?               carcinogenic effects from (5) various
                    compounds also (e) interactwith other          (a)     A. Pyrolysis is the change in           compounds in the smoke?
                    nitrogen containing materials in (')          chemical state (s) that occurs upon               (6)    MR. WEBB: Objectto the form of the
                   tobacco to call what we call volatile          heating in the z bsence of oxygen.                (1) question.
                   nitrosamines.                                   (6)     Q. And there's a distinction between     (e)    THE WITNESS: Yes.
                    (e)      Q. And those are also found in        (7) pyrolysis and combustion?                    (9)    BY MR. BROWN:
                   tobacco smoke?                                  (e)     A. Combustion Is in the presence         (io)    Q. Tell us what you meant by
                      9)     A. Yes.                              of oxygen, (9) so, yes.                          biological (.i) research.
                        a)    Q. AII right.                        (io)      Q. All right, metals, describe what    (iz)    A. Biological research, Dr.
                        .)    And how are they formed; what's the metals ci. you're talking about and the          Osdene's (13) directorate and his own
                   source (, z) of the volatile nitrosamines?     source -- their source in in the cigarette       personal mission as dictated i14; by
                    (13)      A. They're formed by interaction    smoke.                                           Philip Morris or as agreed to by Philip
                   between (14) amines which are                   (13)     A. There are two basic classes of Morris (is) was to be in charge of all of
                   contained In like protein, (15)                metals that (i<) we're interested in. One        the biological testing (1e) that was done
                   protein-type materials, amino acids. And       is the things like f is) arsenic, cadmium,       on the products.
                   the same (I s) oxides of nitrogen that we      chromium, and lead, things of that (16)             in    And there are two forms of that.
                   were discussing --I (17) discussed a few       sort                                             One Is (18) called In vitro, v-i-t-r-o, which
                   minutes ago.                                    (ii)     And those are in nature. They're      are test tube and (19) petrie dish studies
                    (18)      Q. AII right, aldehydes, what are   found In (la) soil. They end up getting on on cell systems. And the other (20) Is in
                   they and (i9) what's their source for getting  the tobacco or In the (19) tobacco. And         vivo which is an animal test.
                   into cigarette (20) smoke?                     when you burn a cigarette, the salts (20)        (zi)     Q. Let me interrupt so that we can
                    (<'-)     A. Aldehydes are generally          of those metals can become the nuclei            avoid that (22) objection.
                   products of (zz) incomplete combustion. for the (21) aerosols.                                  (zs)     Were both of those kinds of
                   In a burning cigarette we (23) have            (22)      In other words, the liquid drop       research done (24) under Dr. Osdene's
                   combustion which Is the mixing of the          forms (23) around a little crystal of           direction in Richmond, in the (25) United
                   tobacco (24) and other materials as it         inorganic material. So (24) that they can       States?
                   burns with oxygen.                             get what we call ingrained In the (25)
                   (zs)       And if you had complete             smoke in the aerosol.                                                 Page 82
                   combustion, you'd                                                                               (i)    A. No.
                                                                                        Page 80                    (2)    Q. Which one was done in
                                          Page 78                 (1+ The other class are radioactive             Richmond?
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                esA                              In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation           William Farone, PhD - Vol. I      10/4100                      XMAX(14n4)
                    (3 '   A.  The in vitro testing, not all of It,    conversations can ;5) you recall anybody       period of time headed          the division
                   but a(5) lot of in vitro testing on cell            else that was present?                         that was called the biochemicai (2)
                  systems was done in (5) Richmond.                     (5)   A. Yes. I mean, several times it        research division.
                   (n)     Q. And what about the in vivo?             was (6; discussed, Dr. Charles, Jim              (9)    Q. And Carpenter, I didn't get the
                   (7)     A. The in vivo was done either at           Charles was present, (7) doctor -- It         !first (:o; name.
                  Imbifo, (e; I-m-b-I-f-0.                            wasn't doctor, Bob Carpenter, (a) Dr.            (11)    A. Bob Carpenter, Robert
                     9)    Q. Which is what?                           Robert Pages, a fellow named William           Carpenter was an (12) assistant to Dr.
                   (lc)     A. Which was a testing                     Kuhn, (9) K-u-h-n, who subsequently            Osdene.
                  laboratory company in (:.) Germany, or worked for me. In the (10) beginning he                       (13)    Q. And Ferguson?
                  In cooperation with other companies,                worked for Dr. Osdene.                           (14)    A. Dr. Robert Ferguson reported
                   ('.2) other laboratories. Like the tobacco          (11)    Afellownamed Dr. Robert                to Mr. Kuhn (15) when Mr. Kuhn was
                  institute and (13) the center for tobacco           Ferguson, (12) F-e-r-g-u-s-o-n. And I'm         head of the biochemical research (16)
                  research.                                           sure there are several (13) more, but           division. And later became a project
                   (14)     So there was some combined                those are the ones that I recall right (14)     leader in that (17) same division.
                  research being (:5) done. And in some               now.                                             (18)    Q. Now in these conversations
                 cases some of that was being done (16)                (15)    Q. Just give us a range if you can't   were you told (19) why you couldn't obtain
                 in conjunction with National Cancer                  give us (16) specifics, what's the range of     certain information?
                 Institute (17; studies.                              the number of (17) conversations with one        (20)    A. Yes.
                  (16)      Q. Were you able during the time          or more of these people (1e) present where (21)          Q. Whatwereyoutoid?
                 that you (19) were there in at least                 you were told about what you could get (19)      (22)    MR. WEBB: Objection, lack of
                 conversations with Dr. Osdene (20) to get            and what you couldn't get and why?              foundation.
                 information from him as to what his (21)              (20)    A. Well, it was a constant point of (23)        THE WITNESS: Two reasons, first
                 biological research was revealed?                    trying to (21) find out whether the             of all, (24) that we were not going to test
                  (22)      A. There are two aspects. In the          changes that you're are making (22)             products as we market (25) them because,
                 case of (23) determining whether or not,             progress or not. And I was always saying number one, that would admit liability
                 let's say, burieywas (za) worse than                 that we (23) needed to have this
                 bright or bright from burley, you could              information. And In the one (24) case I'm                           Page 87
                  (25) in fact obtain information that was            being told, that well, we're not going to       (1) for those products.
                widely                                                 (25) do it. And in another case I'm told -     (z)     And, second, that there was
                                                                                                                      agreement (3) between the tobacco
                                      Page 83                                              Page 85                   companies that they would not (a) test
                  ('-) avaiiabie. It was discussed at these           (1)     MR. WEBB: I'm sorry, I thought the      either their own products as marketed or
                meetings that (z) we had on a project                 (2) question was the number of times. And      their (5) competitors products.
                review basis.                                        so the answer (3) is unresponsive.               (6)     MR. WEBB: Objection, move to
                 (3)      So, you could get information               (4)     MR. BROWN: He's being responsive       strike, (7) non-responsive answer.
                concerning (4) the directions. That's how because (5) he can't tell you the number of                 (8)     BY MR. BROWN:
                we had our research (5) program going.               times unless he (6) tells you what the           (9)     Q. Go ahead. All right.
                But If you wanted to find out (6) whether subjects were. And they were all (7) related                (10)     Were you told anything with respect
                Merit was less carcinogenic in testing               to this.                                        to why (:1) they were afraid to - strike that.
                than (7) Marlboro, you could not get this             (e)     BY MR. BROWN:                           (12)     In your conversation with Dr.
                information.                                          (9)     Q. But go ahead, you can finish your Osdene, did (13) he provide the results of
                 (8)      MR. WEBB: Object, strike the answer, answer.                                               some of his testing to (14) you?
                 19) completefyunresponsive.                          (lo)     A. There are two subjects. One is (15)          A. Yes, he did.
                     o)    BY MR. BROWN:                             how many (11) times. We're talking               (16)     Q. Were they provided in writing?
                           Q. Did you ask for that information? dozens here. Okay. So, if I(lz) have to               (17)     A. He didn't -- there's only one
                 (12)      A. Yes, I did.                            remember each date specifically, It's           occasion (1e) that I can recall where he
                 ii3;      Q. And what was the response of          ,going (13) to be tough.                         allowed me to see a(19) result that was
                Dr. Osdene?                                           (14)     But the conversations start in the    derived at the Colon testing (20)
                 !14`      MR. WEBB: Objection, lack of              end of (15) 1976. And they go right             laboratory at Imbifo. And he let me to
                foundation.                                          through the end of my (16) tenure there,        see that and (21) then he took it back.
                 ('-5)     THE WITNESS: The response of Dr. so.                                                       (22)     Q. And when did this happen
                Osdene i 1 e was that they, first, in the first       (17)     Q. All right.                         about?
                couple of years c.7i we talked about it. In           (18)     A. And I've given you the names        (23)     A. 1980, about 1980.
                the beginning time was that (16) this                of all of the (19) people that I had It with.    (24)     Q. Was there anyone else present
                research was not going to be done by Philip           (20)     Q. You've mentioned some of these at the time?
                 (15, Morris for two reasons.                        before. (21) And before we go forward, let       (25)     A. Yeah, Dr. Charles and Mr.
                 (20)      BY MR. BROWN:                             me ask you to identify (zz) Dr. Charles.        Carpenter were
                 (21)      Q_ Who told you this?                      (23)     A. Dr. Charles was -- he didn't
                 (z-)      A. Dr. Osdene, Dr. Seligman, Dr.          have a(z4) doctorate when I first went                               Page 88
                Hausermann, (23) subsequently, Dr.                   there, but Dr. Charles (25) was a                (1) in the room at the time.
                Wakeham.                                             toxicofogist that worked for Dr. Osdene.         (2)     Q. And did he explain to you why he
                 (24)      Q. And in what time period?                                                               couldn't ^3) fetyouhavethepaperthathad
                 (Z5)      A. Starting In 1977, maybe                                     Page 86                    the results on it?
                towards the end of                                    (1)    Q. Bob Pages?                            (4)    A. Yes.
                                                                      (2)    A. He's a biochemist who worked          (5)    Q. And what did he tell you?
                                      Page 84                        for (3) Dr. Osdene.                              (6)    A. He told me that It had to be
                     ,'76. It was in the first year and this          (4)    Q. And is it Dr. Kuhn?                  destroyed. (7) And that he was going to
                was (--; emphasized subsequent to that.               (5)    A. No, Bill Kuhn, Mr. Kuhn. He was destroy it because those (e) documents
                 (3)     Q. And during or atthese                    an (6) analytical chemist who for a             were not supposed to be seen by the
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                  BSA                         In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation       William Farone, PhD - Vol. 1      10/4/00                         xM,vc(15115)
                   people ( °: at -- in Richmond.                 trying to do in their project?                 beginning ( e) of 1984?
                    (:^)    Q. Did he tell you why?                 ' 1)  A. An analog of nicotine is a          nr)    A. April.
                    (-1)    A. Yes.                               compound that (12) will mimic the              (1i)   Q. April. And 1984 was the last
                   (12)     MR. WEBB: Objection, lack of          pharmacological effects of nicotine. (13)      yearthat (12) you were at Philip Morris?
                  foundation.                                    !There are two effects. There's a central       (:3)   A. That's correct.
                   (:3;     BY MR. BROWN:                         nervous («i system effect and a                (14)   Q. When was your iast month
                   (=5)     Q. Go ahead.                          peripheral nervous system (15) effect.         there?
                   ^'-° i   A. Yes. He told me that they           (ie)   And the idea was to find a              (15)  A.    July, July of 1984.
                  didn't want ^-^ e) those documents to           compound that ('7) would be like                ne)   Q.    Okay. In other conversations
                  appear in court should they be (17)             nicotine in its central nervous system         that you had (17) with Dr. Osdene during
                  subpoenaed.                                      (ie) effect, but did not have some of the     this time frame of the (1e) 1980's, if there
                   ne)      Q. AII right.                         peripheral (19) nervous system effect of       were other people there, tell us (19) who
                   09)      While we're on that subject, did you  nicotine such as increasing (20) heart         they were, were there other conversations in
                  ever (20) meet a Charcade attorney named rate or restriction of circulation.                    (20) which he discussed destruction of
                  Newman?                                          (21)   Q. And how did you become aware        documents and/or (21) policies of
                   (21)     A. Not as a Charcade attorney.        that that (22) project was on-going?           documents that were created in Europe
                  Yeah. He was (z-) employed -there was            (23)   A. Well, it was discussed from          (22) and sent for his review?
                  an attorney named Newman.                       the time In (24) the first year that I was      (23)   MR. WEBB: Objection to the form of
                   (23)     Q. All right. What was his first      there. And ultimately the (25) people who      the (24) question.
                  name?                                           were synthesizing the chemicals that            (25)   THE WITNESS: Yes.
                   (24)     A. Fred.                              were
                                                                                                                                      Page 93
                   (25)     Q. You don't know which law firm
                  that he was                                                          Page 91                    (1)    BY MR. BROWN:
                                                                   (li used in that program ended up              (2)    Q. All right. Tell us, first of all, with
                                       Page 89                    working for me.                                 (3) respectto destruction, tell us when
                     1) with?                                      (2)   So, in fact, people working for me      those (4) conversations took place, who
                   (2)    A. He worked for Philip Morris.         were (3) developing the compounds that         was there, and what he (5) told you about
                   (3)    Q. I'm sorry. I misunderstood that.     were being tested by (4) 1984 when this        destruction of documents.
                   (4)    Did you have conversations with him     meeting took place. They were being (s)         (6)    MR. WEBB: Objection, lack of
                  at (s) some point about the shutting down of tested by Dr. Denoble to see whether or           foundation,
                  certain (e) research?                           not they (E) would mimic the effects of         (7)    THE WITNESS: The meetings in
                   (7)    A. Yes, I did.                          nicotine.                                      which this (e) wouidcome out, I mentioned
                   (e)    Q. When was that?                        (7)   Q. So, your directorate was             one before, where (9) Mr. Carpenter and
                          A. That was early 1984.                 developing what (a) might be an analog and     Dr. Charles was there. The other (io)
                   (10)     Q. And give us the circumstances of then Dr. Denoble was testing (e) it?             meetings were Dr. Seligman was present.
                  that (:_; conversation and tell us who was       (10)   A. Dr. Denoble's project was            r.i)    Dr. Seligman was our mutual boss.
                  there, if anyone (12) else.                     testing them, (11) yes.                        And I(12) was constantly trying to obtain
                   (I 3)    A. That conversation took place        (12)    Q. All right. Now, on this occasion   this kind of (13) information of testing, for
                  April-lish, (.4) about April something. I       where (13) you had the conversation with       example, on the branded (14) products.
                  don't know the exact date, (15) 1984. I         Mr. Newman, and I take (14) it that was        And Dr. Osdene told me in the presence of
                  was sent by Dr. Hausermann who was              some kind of a meeting?                         (15) these other people, Dr. Seligman, and
                  my boss (lE) at that time as his                 (15)   A. Yes. It was a meeting that was      Dr. Charles, (is) and Mr. Carpenter, and
                  representative to this meeting.                 set up, as (16) I say, in April of 1984.       let's see, also, Dr. Dunn and (17 Dr.
                   (17)     Dr. Osdene was there. I remember (17)          Q. Whatwere you told at that          Eichorn on one occasion that I can recall in
                  that. (7e; Mr. Richard Thompson who             meeting?                                        (la) 1980 that, and then we had many
                  was the director of (19) administrative          (18)    MR. WEBB: Objection, lack of          private (19) conversations.
                  services.                                       foundation.                                     (20)    That the documents were sent to his
                   '20-     Mr. Leo Meyer who was the              (i 9)  THE WITNESS: We were told that         home. (21.) He would review them at his
                  director of ;^'-) development. And I            the (20) project was being shut down as of     home and then he would (22) destroy them.
                  believe Mr. Louis Turano who was (22)           then. And that (21) the people were going to    (23)    BY MR. BROWN:
                  the director of process development was be dismissed.                                           (24)    Q. Did he tell you why?
                  there.                                           (22)    BY MR. BROWN:                          (25)    A. Yes, he did.
                   (::-)    And this was on the occasion of        (23)    Q. All right. Did they give you any
                  the (25) elimination or the shutting down        (24) explanation as to why?                                   Page 94
                  of a project 25dealing with studies on           (25)    A. Yes. They said that they did      (i)    Q. What did he tell you?
                  nicotine analog                                 not want to                                   (2)    A. He said that they did notwant
                                                                                                               those (3) documents to be on the
                                      Page 90                                      Page 92                     premises In case of a (4) subpoena In
                        replacements.                              1) have that kind of research being         legal actions. And some of the (5)
                   ;2)    Q. Who was conducting that study;     conducted that (2) would lead to               documents were apparently violating the
                   who was (3; responsible for it?              information that wouid be detrimental          agreement (6) that had been made
                   ;4 )   A. It was done in Dr. Osdene's         (31) to the company.                          between Philip Morris and the (7) other
                   directorate by (5) Dr. Vic Denoble and        (<)    And that all projects from that point companies.
                   people working for him, Dr. Paul (a) Mele. on (`) that in senior management's              I(e)     Q. Which was what, the agreement
                   There was a young lady named Lisa            opinion would provide (e) research             was what?
                   Carron, I :") think, C-a-r-r-o-n.            negative to the future of the company           (9)    A. Well, according to Dr.
                   ^el    Q. Describe for us at least briefly   would (7) be shut down or cancelled or         Wakeham when 1 (10) joined Philip
                   what this ^°: project of analogs were, what  not allowed.                                   Morris, there was an agreement among
                   was an analog and what (io; were they       I(e)     Q. You said that this was about the     (.: ) the companies not to test each
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                 asA                            In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation        William Farone, PhD - Vol. I        1014100                          XMAX(16/16(
                 other's products (=Z) against each other         were working on that (.:; reduced the             being developed at the same time to
                 as marketed for the purposes of (13            i nitrates in tobacco came out safer or (:4)         (-z) remove the rest of the nitrate.
                 determining their biological activity, (:5)    !better in this particular test than the Marlboro (13)       They had a processwhere they
                 carcinogenicity, teratogenicity or                (is) cigarette as made without that              were (14) removing 90 percent. That
                 mutagenicity.                                    improvement.                                      wasn't good enough. So, (15) we were
                  (15:   Q. You said that you were asking or       (ie)    BY MR. BROWN:                            trying to get out 99.9 percent. Trying to
                 you were •:_e; telling them that you thought      (:.i)   Q. In addition to showing you this        (1E) get out as much as we could.
                 there was a need for (!7) product testing.      paper, is (ie) that what Dr. Osdene told            (17)    And so my recollection, four
                         You're talking about the commercial     you?                                               independent (18) proJectswere
                  (:9) products that were out being sold           U 9)    A. Yes. We discussed it. Dr.             instituted to try to remove the u9)
                 actually to the (zo) public?                    Osdene, (20) Dr. Charles, at that time Mr. nitrates.
                  (21)   A. That's correct.                      Charles, and (zi) Mr. Carpenter. There              (20)    Q. And one of those was your
                  (Zz)   Q. And why did you think that you       were four of us in the room. (22) And we project?
                 needed (23) that?                               discussed those results In light of the             (21)    A. One of them was called
                 (.4)    A. Well, everything, first of all, I     (23) proJect that was in my directorate          naturaliyoccurring (22) denitrification
                 don't (zs) think there was any                  for making that (24) R.L. sheet.                  which was in my directorate, yes.
                 disagreement, but they needed                    (25)    This portion of the material, this         (23)    Q. And at this meeting what did Dr.
                                                                                                                   Osdene (24) tell you as to the degree of
                                      Page 95                                         Page 97                      success that your (25) project had had?
                   ^1) that because you can't tell whether or (1) reconstituted tobacco leaf that gave
                  not a product (2) is safe unless you test      potentially the (2) better result that we                                 Page 99
                  the product.                                   saw on that test.                                  (i)     MR. WEBB: Object to the form of the
                   (3)   I mean, you can test different parts     (3)    Q. And the better result was what          (z) question.
                 of it (4) and you can try to make some          had to do (4) with the amount of nitrate on        (3)     THE WITNESS: The results that I
                 lmplications as we were (s) trying to do,       the R.L. sheet?                                   saw (4) showed that there was a fairly
                  but without actually testing the (6)            (5)    MR. WEBB: Object to the form of the       dramatic reduction in (5) the biological
                 product, you don't know whether there's          ( 6) question, leading.                          activity, that is, the measured score (s) in
                 any, what we (7) call synergy, positive or (7)          THE WITNESS: The better result that the two tests from inclusion of this product in
                 negative. That two bad (e) things are           I saw (e) on the sheet was simply the fact         (7) Marlboro.
                 worse than the sum of its parts, for (9)       that it had a lower (9) biological activity in      (8)     BY MR. BROWN:
                 example.                                       t his test that was run.                            (9)     Q. All right. And by biological activity,
                    10)    So, its essential to test the actual  (10)     BY MR. BROWN:                             (^o) are you talking about seeing in cells of
                  (11) finished product that you are going       (1i)     Q. And describe what your project         (i^) carcinogenic or mutagenic effect from
                 to sell to know (12) whether or not the        had been (12) just a little more so that           a particular (12) chemical?
                 changes that you've made are (13)              people can understand (13) what it was that         (13)     A. Either In cells or In animals.
                 beneficial or not.                             you had done that you were being (14) told         (14)      Q. All right.
                 (14)      Q. Were you ever given the - were    the results of.                                    (15)      In discussing what you were shown,
                you ever (is) told the product - the             (is)     A. Well, one of the things that I       what (1e) did Dr. Osdene tell you as to the
                 commercial product testing (16) was being      instituted (16) there was a thing called --       degree of success (17) that your project
                 done?                                          lt was the application (17) of                    had enjoyed?
                 (17)      MR. WEBB: Objection, lack of         biotechnology to Philip Morris' products.          (ne)      A. He said, and Mr. Carpenter
                foundation.                                      (18)     And the particular project had to       and Dr. Charles (19) agreed, that they
                 (^e)      BY MR. BROWN:                        do with (19) removing nitrates from a             would support making that change (zo)
                 (i^)      Q. By any of these people?           component in tobacco called (zo)                  in the product based on those results.
                 (20)     A. Yes, I was.                        reconstituted leaf where they took parts           (21)      Q. Was that change ever made in
                 (z.)     Q. What did they tell you?            of tobacco, (zl) like stems and scraps            a Philip (22) Morris product?
                 («)       MR. WEBB: Objection, lack of         that you couldn't otherwise (zz) use and           (23)      A. Not to my knowledge.
                foundation.                                     they converted it back into a paper-like           (24)      Q. About what year was this
                 iz3;     THE WITNESS: Dr. Osdene in the         (23) material that you could chop up and         discussion?
                 c=4) conversation that I described previously use in a (24) cigarette in place of                 (25)      A. In 1980.
                showed me a(2-) page that had some              tobacco.
                results on it.                                   (25)     And it was identified by our                                   Page 100
                                                                colleagues in                                      (i)     Q. Okay. All right. Let me switch a
                                      Page 96                                                                     little (z) bit. First, I'd like you to describe for
                 (,      BY MR. BROWN:                                                Page 98                     us what (3) might seem like a simple
                 (2)     Q. Okay.                                (1) Europe and by the general research           question, butwouid you (4) describe for us
                 (^)     A. That had Marlboro tests In It.      group including (2) Dr. Osdene's group, ithe modern cigarette,
                And so I(G) saw a piece of paper where          that one of the problems was (3) that              (s)     What is it and what is it the product of
                it had been done.                               nitrates which are included in tobacco             (6) in terms of scientific research?
                 (s)     Q. Now, are you talking about the      during (4) the fertilization process,              (1)     A. The modern cigarette, let's
                whole (e) product testing of Marlboro or        remained in sufficient (s) quantities in          start by (8) saying people have seen It
                constituenttesting :7) of Marlboro?             that material to Increase the level of ( 6)       and it's a cylindrical (9) object where
                 !°)     A. A whole product test of             oxides of nitrogen in tobacco smoke.              you have paper wrapping tobacco that is
                Marlboro.                                       (7)      And also increased the level of (a)       (10) cut up.
                 (9)     Q. What did that paper show?           nitrosamines because the oxides of                 (zi)     And most of them have a filler tip
                 (10)     MR. WEBB: Objection, best             nitrogen react to (9) make the                    on them (12) now. And you can make
                evidence rule.                                  nitrosamines. So that everybody was               them different lengths. You (13) can
                 c'..)    THE WITNESS: The paper showed         (10working on technology. And there               make them different diameters. And you
                that the (=2; inclusion of a material that we   were several other (11) technologies             ,can pack (14) them with different
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                   esA                            In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation " William Farone, PhD - Vol. 1             1014100                       xreAx(I 7117)
                   amounts of tobacco.                                 goes into the design of the (.F) cigarette?      budget (-e) during the period that I was
                    ^'-4!  And you can also select the                  r. %^  Let's use as an example the              there, for example, was ^.9) something
                   tobaccos that (=E) you put In the them.             Marlboro ("-?) cigarette.                        on the order of 50 million dollars a year.
                   For example, you can use c„ bright                   n5     MR. WEBB: Objection, lack of              (zo That was the period of 1976 to 1984.
                   tobacco. You can use burley, Oriental,              foundation.                                       ^2i    Q: 50 million each year?
                   which c'-e Is also sometimes called                  (20)   THE WITNESS: The people working           (22)   A. 50 million on an average of
                   Turkish. And you can use i15; stems.                for me (2:: were given that exact problem,       about a year. (23) If I recall my last year I
                    (20)   When you talk about tobacco,                who's to determine ;22how best you can           think one of my budgets cza was on the
                   they normally czii talk about leaf which            come to arips with all of these (23) different   order of 15 milllon dollars for my c25
                   is really the tobacco that's c22^ cut out of        variables.                                       portion of the work that was being done.
                   the middle of the leaf. The thing that (23)         c24;    And one of the people working for
                   they call stems are really like the ribs. So,       me was a (25) fellow named Dr. Homer                                  Page 105
                   you c24; can put stems In it.                       Hartung, H-a-r-t-u-n-g. And                      ci And Individual projects subsequent
                   (25)    You can treat the tobacco In                                                                to that (<) it's my understanding are as
                   various ways.                                                            Page 103                   much as 300, could be (3) 100 miilion or
                                                                         (zi his co-workers began a task which took    300 million dollars.
                                          Page 101                      several years (2) of putting all of the         (4)    Q. So, the time frame in terms of the
                    (1 You can roast it. You can expand It.             information that had been (3) collected         csi industry itself, would it be your opinion
                   And as we (z) mentioned earlier, you can             experimentally over many years and many       that (6) billions of dollars have been spent in
                   take things which are (3) difficult to use            (4) experiments into a computer model that the design of (7) cigarettes?
                   and you can make them back into (4)                  allowed us to (5) predict the deliveries of a   (e)    A. Easily.
                   reconstituted leaf that you can use.                 cigarette based on these (6) parameters.        (9)    Q. Okay. Let me ask you this.
                    (5)     So, let's say there's something on          (7)    And that was done during the period of (1o)      Approximately, how many
                   the (6 order of nine different things that           (e) 1977 through about 1980-81. And then      compounds are (1i) there in the Philip
                   you can put ci i inside this cylinder. Then         starting in (9) '81, we started teaching the    Morris Marlboro, for example?
                   you have a range of (e) papers that you             people in the eio development directorate       (12)     A. How many compounds in the
                   can use to wrap it with. And then (9) you           how to use that model to (11 better design     smoke or how (13) many compounds In
                   have a range of diameters, lengths.                 cigarettes.                                    the --
                    (10)     You can even make the density                12     MR. WEBB: Objection, move to          cza      Q. In the smoke, in the smoke.
                   along the (11 cigarette be different. The           strike, (13) unresponsive.                      (15)     A. Well, it's funny not exactiy, as
                   machines have the (iz) capability of                 (14      BY MR. BROWN:                        time has (i6) gone on we have been able
                   putting more tobacco at the lighting (13)            (15)     Q. And was the study that you just   to identify more and more (17) of those
                   end of the cigarette. So that when you              described, (161 was that a study wherein       compounds. And current estimates and
                   light It, (15 you actually get more tar             you varied all of these (17) various factors   some (10) estimates that we made while
                   from the first puff than (15) you get from          that you just -- 57 factors that you (1e) just I was there range on (19) the order of six
                   subsequent puffs.                                   described?                                     to 8,000. Some people say 4,000. (20) It
                    (ie)     And the filter you can change the          (=9i     A. That's correct.                   just depends on how carefully you do
                   material ci7 that you filter with. You can           (20)     Q. To see what differences would     your (zi) analysis.
                   change additives to (1e) that material.             occur c21 depending on which factor was         (221     Q. Approximately, how many
                   You can change if you use a process                 being varied and how (22) much?                additives were (23) being placed in the
                   (14) called dilution to reduce tar, you can          (z3)    A. That's correct.                    Philip Morris cigarettes while (24) you were
                   put holes in (2o the filter to help suck in          c241     Q. Okay. In terms of grading the     there?
                   air along with your tar (21) to reduce the          modern (25) cigarette in complexity, can        (25)     MR. WEBB: I'II object, lack of
                   amount that you actually get per puff.              you give us some grade
                   (22) And you can put those holes in                                                                                       Page 106
                   different sites and (23) different                                       Page 104                   (i) foundation.
                   placements.                                          ci between very simple and awesomely           (2)     THE WITNESS: The list is quite
                   (-'G      All in all I think that I've identified   complex?                                       extensive 3 because since somewhere
                   57 czs different things you can do to                (2)    MR. WEBB: Objection, lack of           around the 1930's they (4) started putting
                   change what comes out                               foundation.                                    things -- there are two kinds of (5) kits.
                                                                        (3     THE WITNESS: It's a very complex       There are casings which are put on and then
                                     Page 102                          device (4) because what you're doing is         ; e) there's flavorings. And some of those
                   (1) of the end of the modern cigarette,             producing something on (5) the order of,       could have (7) upwards of 100 different
                   combining all (2) combinations of those             let's say, six to 8,000 chemicals. (6) And the chemicals that they would (e) put into an
                   changes that i just mentioned.                      ratio of the chemicals and what they are and individual cigarette.
                   c3    Q. And would the temperature of the            (7 how you produce them is controlled by       (9)     BY MR. BROWN:
                   burning (4) be something that can be                those factors cai that we just got through      (io)     Q. Has Philip Morris ever released
                   controlled by the design of (5) the cigarette?      discussing.                                    the list cii> of additives that it places in its
                   (6)   A. Yes.                                        (9)    Plus anything else that you might like cigarettes?
                    7    Q. And is the amount of tobacco that          to (10) add to a cigarette, to either change    (12)     MR. WEBB: Objection, lack of
                   can be (g) packed in there, does that have          the way it e11) burns or change what comes foundation.
                   something to do with 9) what goes into the          out in the smok::.                              (13)     THE WITNESS: Yes, it has.
                   smoke?                                               i,,z     BY MR. BROWN:                         (14)     BY MR. BROWN:
                    .o     MR. WEBB: Objection, repetitious.            (i 3    Q. Can you give us an estimate in      (15)     Q. When did they do that?
                           THE WITNESS: Yes,                           your (14) opinion over the years from, let's    (16)     A. Just recently as part of, on
                           BY MR. BROWN:                               say, from 1960 on cis what the range of        their web (1-1) site they provided a list. I
                           Q. Now, in terms of scientific or           costs has been in the cigarette (1 6) industry think It's like 156 or c:e something like
                   chemical r.) complexity, howwouldyou                to design the cigarette products?              that. It's over 150 compounds that in
                   describe the degree of (15) complexity that          (17)    A. Yes, I can. I mean, the R & D      they say that they add.
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                  esA                             In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation         Will'am Farone, PhD - Vol. I          10/4/00                       xMAx(te/19)

                            Q. Was that something that they          that you 12-% were there and from your                                  Page 111
                   were required -i; to do by Australia?             conversation with Dr. Dunn (r) and others,          (1) to tar ratio. So, it has reduced tar, the
                    (22,    A. Yes.                                  in your opinion did Philip Morris design (z>)      relative (2) arnount now actualiy the
                    (22)    Q. Had they ever released a list of      their cigarettes to create and maintain           cigarettes had less 13) nicotine, but relative
                   their ^--s; additives prior to the Australian     addiction?
                                                                                                                       to the amount of tar the (4) amount of
                   requirement?                                       (24)    MR. WEBB: Objection, lack of             nicotine being delivered was increased for
                    (2s)    MR. WEBB: Objection, lack of             foundation.
                                                                                                                         (5) the purpose of maintaining the
                   foundation.                                        (z5)    THE VIDEOGRAPHER We're out of dependence or (6) addiction on nicotine.
                                                                     tape.
                                         Page107                                                                        (7)      BY MR. BROWN:
                                                                                         Page 109                       (B)      Q. Now, did you ever hear at Philip
                       .     THE WITNESS: In 1984 or five or six,
                                                                                                                       Morris ( 9) the reduction of tar referred to as
                      (z^ around in there, they released a iistto     (1)    MR. BROWN: Great timing.
                                                                                                                       general (10) reduction?
                     the Center c3) for Disease Control, notjust      (z)    THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the            (i 1)     A. Yes.
                     Philip Morris, but all (4) of the companies     record at (3) 12:30. (4)
                                                                                                                        (1z)      Q. Was it the theory of general
                     combined released a list that (5) contained      (5)   (At 12:30 p.m., the deposition of (6)      reduction if (13) you took all tar down that
                     599 compounds at that time.                    WILLIAM A. FARONE, PH.D. was adjourned everything that was in (14) tar that was bad
                       6)    And I believe in early 1999 they       for (i) the noon recess.) (e) /// ///              would also go down in quantity.
                    released (i) a list on their web site that        (9)   (At 1:39 p.m., the deposition of (10)       (15)      Was that the idea?
                    showed that their (e) cigarettes only           WILLIAM A. FARONE, PH.D. was                        (16)      A. The idea was that it wouid go
                    contained five or six different (9)             reconvened (11) from the noon recess.)             down in (17) proportion to the amount of
                    compounds.                                       (iz)                                              tar that you reduce. In (1e) some cases
                     c10)     BY MR. BROWN:                          (13)     EXAMINATION (CONTINUED) (14)             by the modifications you could actually
                     (il)     Q. What were those compounds, if
                                                                     115)     THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back              (19) reduce it a little more than the tar
                    you can (!z) remember?
                                                                    on the (ie) record at 1:39.                       was reduced.
                     (i 3)    MR. WEBB: Objection, best
                                                                     (17)     BY MR. BROWN:                            (20)       Q. And did they ever - did Philip
                    evidence rule.
                     r.a!     BY MR. BROWN:                            ie)    Q. Dr. Farone, the last question that Morris (zi) while you were there ever do a
                                                                    I (19) asked, I'll attempt to restate it.         product test on their (zz) commercial
                     1=si     Q. Go ahead.
                                                                     (20)     From your observations of what was      cigarettes to determine whether, in fact,
                              A. They listed they said that they
                                                                     (21) happening at Philip Morris when you          (23) reducing the tar reduced the dangers
                    putin (17) giycerine, and sugar. And
                                                                   were there from (22) 1976 through 1984             ofthe (za) cigarette?
                   some of them had ammonium (le)                                                                      (zs)       A. Not the product as finally
                   phosphate. And some of them had one or and from your conversation with (23) Dr.
                   two other r.5i things. But they didn't list      Dunn, Dr. Osdene, and/or anybody else that marketed, no.
                   the 156 that they (zo) subsequently               (24) you've mentioned, did you come to an
                                                                                                                                            Page 112
                   listed.                                         understanding (25) that Philip Morris was
                                                                    deliberately designing a                           li)      Q. Okay. Let me ask you this, Dr.
                    (z1)      Q. In your opinion during the time                                                      Farone, in (2) your opinion could the Philip
                   that you Izzi worked there, how many                                                               Morris cigarette have (3) been made a safe
                                                                                         Page 110
                   identifiable carcinogens were (z3) in the
                                                                    (i) cigarette which would create and              cigarette?
                   Philip Morris tobacco smoke?                                                                        (4)
                                                                   maintain addition?                                           MR. WEBB: Objection, lack of
                    (za)     A. Well, at the time that I worked                                                      foundation.
                                                                    (2)     A. Yes.
                   there I(zs) think we figured that there                                                                      THE WITNESS: In my opinion, yes.
                  were 27.                                          (3)     MR. WEBB: I'll objectto the form of
                                                                   the (4) question, leading, as well as lack of                BY MR. BROWN:
                                        Page 108                   foundation.                                                  Q. And I'll get into some detail in a
                                                                                                                              (e) bit.
                    (=)     Q. And in your opinion since then has (5)       THE WITNESS: Yes.
                                                                    (s)     BY MR. BROWN:                                       In general, what's the basis of that
                  that ;z number changed?
                                                                    17)     Q. Okay. Would you tell us what your               opinion?
                   ^ -A. Well, more compounds have
                                                                    (e) understanding was and howyou came to                     MR. WEBB: Objection, lack of
                  been identified. !4; Some compounds
                  have been categorized. I -- the last (s)         it, citing (') conversations, if any, citing what foundation.
                                                                                                                      (iz)       THE WITNESS: The basis of the
                  time that I did this which was a couple of you observed, if (lo) any?
                                                                    r.i)     MR. WEBB: Same objection, lack of       opinion is (:3 ) the fact that there are safe
                  years ago ;b! I think that we Identified by
                                                                    (12) foundation.                                 nicotine delivery (14) devices on the
                  looking in the 7) literature, 43.
                                                                    (13)     THE WITNESS: As we discussed            market.
                   (5)      Q. Okay. And are all of those 43 or
                                                                  earlier, (14) right from my first discussion        (15)       BY MR. BROWN:
                  the 27 (s; identified as human carcinogens                                                          (16)       Q. Such as?
                  or is there a no, distinction between that      during my (15) interviewing process, we
                                                                  discussed the concept of (16) reducing the          (17)       A. Such as the productsoid for
                  and something else?
                                                                  chemicals that cause problems in a (17)            smoking (ie) cessation, the gum. They
                     =-)     A. No. That's a good point. No,
                                                                  cigarette and maintaining nicotine.                are safe from a cancer (i9) prospective,
                  they are I12) not all Identified as human
                                                                   (18)      So, it became essential if one was      maybe not from the effects of nicotine
                  carcinogens, but the (z3) presumption Is                                                            (20) other than causing cancer. But if
                  that If it causes cancer in animal (14)         going (19) to reduce the bad, let's call them
                                                                  the bad (20) chemicals, the carcinogens,           you look at an (21) inhaier or a patch,
                  systems that there is a very high
                  probability that (is) it will do the same       mutagens that are in (21) tobacco smoke, to they don't deliver anything (22) that's
                                                                  change the ratio of nicotine to (22) tar so        harmful other than the nicotine.
                  thing the in the human system.                                                                      (23)
                                                                  that people would continue to smoke that                       And so If you look at that as being
                   ;16)      They are all identified as
                                                                   (23) cigarette.                                   the (24) goal, and If you look at those as
                  mutagens. So, (17) It's a question of it
                                                                   (24)      And that was a deliberate and           being competitive (25) products, which
                  being a carcinogen. I think (le) of the
                                                                  purposefui (25) undertaking of Philip Morris       Philip Morris did consider them to
                  ones that have been proven to be human
                           carcinogens, I think there's 11.       to change the nicotine
                                                                                                                                            Page 113
                  12^;       Q. In your opinion during the time                                                      (1) be competitive roducts for the
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                   BSA                            In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation         William Farone, PhD - Vol. I       1014100                       XMAX(19119
                     future, then you (2) start from where you         idea be to ^3! remove the carcinogens which 1 ;4 i       If you start off with a high tar level
                     are and you migrate the product ;3) to a          cause the lung cancer?                            and cs) you're reducing the tar and
                     product that is considered safe.                    4:   MR. WEBB: Object to the form of the        along with reducing the (e) tar.you're
                     (5)    It's considered safe and effective          (s) question, leading.                           reducing aldehydes. And then you (7)
                     by the (5) Food and Drug Administration.           (6    THE WITNESS: If you're trying to (7)     1 specifically attack the aldehydes through
                    So, you can go from i5; the product that           eliminate cancer caused by the chemicals in !seiective (e) filtration through removing
                    you have toward this goal of c>>                   a ie) cigarette, the best way to do that is to    things like sugarand (9) the precursors
                    providing something that Is safe as                remove the cs chemicals that cause the            that result in that product. You io) will
                    something that (e) the Food and Drug               cancer.                                           reach at some point a very, very low
                    Administration has approved.                               BY MR. BROWN:                             level of (1.) aldehydes, virtually,
                     (5)   Q. In your opinion from the time that               Q. All right. Let me ask you.             eliminating them.
                    you got no there in 1976, perhaps even              (12)   Was the technology available by the        (12)   Q. Is sugar as an additive a
                    before that, did Philip (ii) Morris have the      time (13( that you got Philip Morris to           significant (13) reason why aldehydes are
                    ability through science to make that (12)          remove all or (14) virtually all of the          found in cigarette smoke?
                    movement and make their cigarettes safe?           nitrosamines, aldehydes, the (is) P.A.H.'s,       (14)    A. It is a contributing factor, yes.
                     ('•-)   MR. WEBB: Objection, lack of              and the metals?                                   (15)    Q. And what is the sugar there for?
                    foundation.                                        (16)    A. To remove them 100 percent             (lfl    A. Well, there are several
                     «a      THE WITNESS; Philip Morris               completely, no.                                   reasons for the (17) sugar. One is that
                    deveioped, as (1s) we discussed, many              (17)    Q. Or virtually remove them?             the sugar in the mixtures that (io) they
                   types of technology that either ta.s) would         (1e)    A. You could reduce them by              put on called casings combine with other
                    reduce or remove the carcinogens. Yes.            tremendous (19) amounts, yes.                      (19) product in the syrup to make the
                   They (ii had the technology that would              (20)    Q. Let's take them one by one and        tobacco more (20) fiexibie so that It's
                   reduce those (io) carcinogens from the             ask you to (21) explain what that technology easier to chop up into smaller (21(
                   point that they were towards (19) the              would have been.                                  pieces.
                   direction of making it safe.                        (22)    How you would have gone about, first (22)         The other thing is that sugar tends
                    (20)     BY MR. BROWN:                            of (23) all, reducing nitrosamines?               to (23) help the physical configuration of
                    (21)     Q. Okay. Was there a denicotinized        (24)    MR. WEBB: Objection, lack of             the cigarette. (24) Some of the additives
                   -- I(22 don't know if I can say that no matter     foundation.                                       In general add to the bulk or (zs) the
                   how much I (23) try -- was there a                  c25i    THE WITNESS: In reducing                weight of the tobacco.
                   denicotinized cigarette in (24) existence at       nitrosamines,
                   the time that you came to Philip Morris (25)                                                                             Page 118
                   or was that done later?                                                 Page 116                     Cu And, In fact, many of these things are
                                                                        ?) you look toward how the nitrosamines           2 much less expensive than tobacco.
                                          Page 114                    are formed and (z) the technologies that         Like sugar is (3) 50 cents a pound, let's
                     (1)      A. No. There was not one on the         one can use to remove the (3) nitrates from say, and tobacco is $7.50 a (4) pound.
                    market that (2 I'm aware of.                     the tobacco that causes the oxides of (4)          (5)    So, If you can replace tobacco with
                     (3)      Q. I don't mean on the market.         nitrogen that react to form it,                   sugar, (6) you save a lot of money.
                     (4)      They had developed it, Philip Morris    (s)    You can remove the nitrosamines that (7)          Q. All right. Let's go to P.A.H.'s, the
                    had (F) developed one?                           occur (6) through changing the curing of           (e) polynuclear aromatic hydrocarbons.
                     (6)      A. No.                                 tobacco. You can (7) remove them by                (9)    What technology was available to
                     (i       Q. Was there a denicotinized           selecting tobaccos that are naturally (e) low remove (lo) them?
                    cigarette that (e) had been created by           in nitrosamines. You can remove them by            (xl)    A. The P.A.H.'s are formed by
                    anybody?                                          (9) extracting the tobacco to remove all of      combustion and c121 high temperature.
                     (9)      A. Yes. In the 1950's there was a     the (io) alkaloids and the nitrosamines.           So, one technology is to (13) remove -
                    product (io) called Sano, S-a-n-o, which          (11     And then by adding back only the         to reduce the temperature.
                    was a denicotinized (: 1) cigarette.             nicotine. (12) And as part of it you could         (14)    P.A.H.'s are Imminently filterable
                     (=2)      Q. What carcinogens, if any, were    reduce it by reducing or (13) virtually            by (15 selective filtration. P.A.H.'s can
                    removed ::3 from that cigarette?                 eliminating the nitrates that are in (14)        also be reduced (16) by adding certain
                     ('=4%     A. Well, nicotine reactions with     tobacco.                                          catalysts to cigarettes that in (17) fact
                    oxides of (=s) oxygen to perform a                ns      BY MR. BROWN:                           cause combustion to be more complete.
                    specifically nasty nitrosamine, tle) let's         -^^    Q. Okay. What about aldehydes,           nei      And this would dramatically
                    call it N.N.K. That's Its initials.             what was the (17) technology that was              reduce them to (19) a point where
                    (!i)       And if you don't have the nicotine, available, if any, to remove (ie) aldehydes? hopefully in whole product testing we
                   then (le) you wouidn't make the N.N.K.            (19)     A. In the production of aldehydes (20) could show that there was no more
                   So, it wouid have had (19) diminutus             from smoke, (20) you can look at the              contribution or (21) diminutus
                   quantities of N.N.K. In It. And that Is 2o)      products, what we call product (21)               contribution from the P.A.H.'s to (22)
                   one of the more potent carcinogens in            precursor relationships. You can look at          carcinogenic potential.
                   cigarettes.                                      what is it (z2) that causes the aldehydes. i231             Q. Okay. And finally the fourth class
                    (z=)       Q. Are there other ways to reduce    And the aidehydes, the (z3 large                  of (za) carcinogen we talked about metals,
                   or (22 eliminate nitrosamines including          percentage of it comes from the                   including (25) radioisotopes.
                   N.N.K.?                                          decomposition c24 of sugar and things
                    (23)       A. There are many different          of that sort.                                                          Page 119
                   ways.                                             (24)     So you can eliminate as much of          il What technology was available to
                    1241       Q. We'll get into those. Let me just the sugar                                         remove (2) them?
                   go c25i ahead to that very question, in fact.                                                       (3      A. The - certain of the metals, not
                                                                                          Page 117                     cai radioisotopes, well, to a certain
                                         Page 115                    ;=) as could. And then It was known that         extent even the (s) radioisotopes, but
                           In order to make a safe cigarette from   certain ez) filters were effective at             the metals are either taken up by (6) the
                   the ; z) standpoint of lung cancer, would the ; selectively filtering the (3) aldehydes.           tobacco plant or they are deposited on
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                  BSA                           In re: Complex Asbestos Litlgation          Wiliiam Farone, PhD - Vol. I    1014/00                        xrnAx(so)zo)
                   the '; tobacco plant.                             classes of carcinogens ; a that we've been      =4)    BY MR. BROWN:
                    fe>   In the case of metals that are taken      !taiking about would have been ;:o^ removed (1s)       Q. And what is your opinion as to -
                   up by (s) the tobacco plant, one can              from cigarette smoke?                         whe ther or ( i6.) not that would reflect a
                   devise strains through ('o) genetic                (:i)   MR. WEBB: Objection, lack of          substantial reduction in (17) the risk of lung
                   engineering that do not uptake those              foundation.                                   cancer from smoking cigarettes?
                   metals.                                            (12)   MR. BARRON: Also, it's leading and     (.e)    MR. WEBB: Objection, iackof
                    (i 1)  You can also devise through                (13) suggestive. And it's vague and          foundation (is) for that opinion.
                  genetic t12 engineering which was part             ambiguous in the use (14) of the phrase        (20)   THE WITNESS: If you remove the
                  of the programs that we (13) were                  quote, nearly all, close unquote. (is)        causes of (21) the cancer, then the cancer
                   interested In tobacco which doesn't pick           (16)   (Discussion held off the record.) in  will be reduced (22) dramatically.
                  up as (=5i much from the air.                       (18)   BY MR. BROWN:                          (23)   BY MR. BROWN:
                   (15)    That Is that the Idea is the surface                                                     (24)   Q. Now, in addition to those four
                                                                     (i9)    Q. Let me state the question again,
                  of (iE; the tobacco leaf would be less              (20)   What is your opinion, if any, as to   classes of (25) carcinogens, are there other
                  sticky so that things (17) that were In the        (21) whether or not had all of these          substances or other
                  air didn't stick on It.                            techniques and (22) approaches been used
                   (ae)    And itwas shown by research                                                                                    Page 124
                                                                     that you've just described as (23) to whether
                  programs at (n5) Philip Morris that one                                                               (i) constituents in the cigarette smoke
                                                                     all or virtually all of the four classes (24) of
                  could wash off approximately (20) 50                                                                which are (2) carcinogens?
                                                                     carcinogens would have been removed from
                  percent of the metals that were on the             Philip (25) Morris cigarettes?                     (3)   A. Yes.
                  surface.                                                                                              (4)   Q. And are they significant; are they
                   (21)    So, If we prevent It from going                                Page 122                     minor?
                  Inside the (222) plant and we wash It off           (1)                                               (s)   Give us some idea of what
                                                                             A. That they could have been and,
                  the surface, we can pretty (23) much               In fact, (2) there was a project called          significance (Si they have.
                  eliminate the metals.                                                                                 (7)   A. The objective is to take the
                                                                     Trinity.
                   (24)    Q. While you were at Philip Morris         (3)    Q. And describe that.                    cigarette (e) toward the products that
                  what, if (25any, technologies were actually         (4)    A. Which aimed at essentially zero have been accepted by (9) regulatory
                  used to remove these                                                                                agencies as being safe.
                                                                     tar (s) cigarette that only delivered a little
                                                                                                                        (io)   So removing classes of
                                     Page 120                        bit of (6) nicotine. And that was
                                                                                                                      compounds. If (1s) there are after you
                                                                    discussed. And it was (7) actualiy a
                  (=) four classes, any one of these four                                                             remove all of those through the (12)
                                                                     program for quite a while.
                 classes of (2) carcinogens?                          ce)                                             testing, if It turns out that there are one
                                                                             Q. At Philip Morris?
                  (:)    MR. WEBB: Objection, lack of                                                                 or two (13) other things that still show
                                                                     (9)     A. At Philip Morris.
                 foundation.                                         (io)                                             some activity, not only (14) will it be
                                                                              Q. While where you there?
                         THE WITNESS: Used in -                      (ii)                                             dramatically less by a very large (15)
                                                                              A. Yes.
                         BY MR. BROWN:                                                                                percentage, but that singular thing can
                                                                     (12)     Q. All right. Now, what is your
                         Q. When I say used, I mean placed          opinion as (13) to whether or not the cause
                                                                                                                      then be (ie) attacked to, let's call it,
                         (7) commercial cigarette.
                                                                    of lung cancer would (14) have been virtually finish the job.
                         A. The only technology that I can                                                             (17)    So, I'm allowing for the possibility
                                                                    removed from cigarette smoke, (15) that is,
                 say that (9) was used In commercial                                                                  that (1e) there might be other things that
                                                                    causes coming from those four classes of
                 cigarettes other than some (ro) test                (i6) carcinogens, what is your opinion as to     are there that (19) right now are masked
                 cigarettes was the concept of general                                                                by all of the chemicals that we (20)
                                                                    whether with (17) respect to those four
                  r.i) reduction. That Is, if I just reduce tar,                                                      talked about. That after you remove all
                                                                    classes of carcinogens (ie) virtually all
                 I'li nz; reduce all of these things.                                                                 of those (zt) you'll have a minor
                                                                    causes of lung cancer in smoke would (19)
                  (13)    Q. But as far as you're aware, there                                                        amount. But by that point they (22) Will
                                                                    have been removed from the commercial
                 was (- 5) never any product test to                                                                  be easy to identify and to remove.
                                                                    cigarette by (20) Philip Morris?
                 determine whether that (15) general                 (21)                                              (23)    Q. You used in your answer the
                                                                              MR. WEBB: Objection, lack of
                 reduction had reduced it to a safe (16)                                                              term large (24) percentage, I think, re!ated
                                                                    foundation (22) for that opinion.
                 cigarette?                                          (23)                                             to the large percentage (25) of the cause is
                                                                              MR. BARRON: In addition I have to
                  (i7 )   MR. WEBB: Object to the form of the                                                         removed.
                                                                    add (24) that the question is still, again,
                  ;=s; question and object as to the lack of
                                                                    vague and (25) ambiguous as to the term,                              Page 125
                 foundation.
                                                                    quote, virtually removed,
                   i S)   THE WITNESS: There was never                                                                 (i) Can you give us parameters of what you
                 any (2c) biological product testing. In some                             Page 123                     (2) meant by large percent?
                 cases there was (21) consumer testing.                                                                (3)    A. Well, yes. Bya large
                                                                     (i) close quote.
                  (zz)    BY MR. BROWN:                              (2)                                              percentage I mean (4) that If you look at
                                                                            THE WITNESS: If you remove those
                  (z^,)   Q. Consumertesting?                        (3) compounds to the best of my opinion          the approximately 400,000 deaths (5) a
                  (24)    A. On some of the changes that                                                              year that are attributable to smoking,
                                                                    and my (4) estimation based on everything
                 we anticipated (2s) might help to see                                                                say, (e) 160,000 or 170,000 are attributed
                                                                    that I know, that you (s) would have a
                 whether or not consumers would                                                                       to lung cancer, (i) that part of it.
                                                                    product which you may not be able to ( 6)
                                                                                                                       (e)    That that number would become
                                      Page 121                      distinguish the users of that product whether
                                                                                                                      so small (9) that It wouid be hard to
                                                                    or not (7) they had anymore significant
                      find It acceptable,                                                                             identify smoking cigarettes (io) as a risk
                                                                    cancer than, say, a(e) non-smoker.
                         But I never saw any biological                                                               factor for lung cancer.
                                                                     (9)    So in the sense of virtually all,
                 testing ^^, ' that would show the effect                                                              (11)    In other words, the rate gets close
                                                                    meaning, (io) that you reduce it to a rate
                 that It actually had in (4) the what we call                                                         to one ( 12) or one point zero or one
                                                                    where it becomes very, (ns) very difficult, if
                 the biological activity of the (5) project.                                                          point zero two so that (i3) there is no
                                                                    notpossib!e, to measure the (12) difference
                  (s)   Q. Now is it your opinion by these                                                            more risk from using the product.
                                                                    between a smoker and a non-smoker.
                 various (7) techniques that you've described                                                         (14)     Q. And you referred to rate, are
                                                                     (13)     So, I think that was possible.
                 that nearly all or (e) virtually all of the four                                                     you talking (is) about the relative rate that's
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                   BSA                           In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation         William Farone, PhD -Vol. I       10/4/00                 xMAX(21121)
                    used in epidemiology?                            (:a)     BY MR. BROWN:                           (19)    Q With who?
                     ;=E^   A. Yes. I'm talking about the                     Q. In your conversations with Dr.        (.5)  A. Jeff Wigand formerly with B &
                    number that's (1i) used In epidemiology          Osdene ^:e what, if anything, was said           W.
                    that's used in buying Insurance cis; in          about the source of his 1^ ) understanding        (20)   Q.    And when did that take place?
                    actuarial tables. It's the relative risk         as to the synergistic effect of !1E; smoking      (z.)   A.    It took place In August of this
                    associated with that particular -                and asbestos exposure?                           year.
                    (10)    Q. And in epidemiological terms a         (15)    MR. WEBB: Objection, lack of             (z2 ,  Q.    Where?
                    rating of (:_) one is what?                      foundation (zo) fortheconversation.               (23)   A.    It took place at the eleventh
                    (zz)    A. A rating of one means that It          (21)    BY MR. BROWN:                          IIworld (24)   conference on tobacco oral
                    has no more (z^) risk than the                    («)     MR. BROWN: The same                     health.
                    background.                                      conversation that (z3) we've already            I(25)    Q.    And tell us what was said in that
                    (24)    Q. Okay. Let me move to a different      identified as to when, who was there, (za)
                    area.                                            and so forth.                                                        Page 130
                    (25)    When you came there in 1976, did          (z5)   THE WITNESS: Dr. Osdene and I             (1) conversation,
                    you have                                         discussed                                         (2)    MR. WEBB: Objection, hearsay.
                                                                                                                       (3)    THE WITNESS: Dr. Wigand and I
                                         Page 126                                          Page 128                   both gave (4) papers at the same
                      (1) any conversations with anyone including           with this on several occasions. We were symposia. And before and after (5) he gave
                     Tom Osdene (2) that related to synergism         both (<) familiar with the works of Dr.         his paper, we discussed the B & W literature
                     between tobacco smoke and (3) asbestos            Silicone from the (3) 1960's.                   (6) what they were doing compared to what
                     exposure?                                         (4)    Dr. Osdene and I discussed the         we were doing (7) at Philip Morris.
                      (4)    A. Yes, I did.                           results of (5) the research work that we         (a)    And we compared notes as to our
                      (5)    Q. And would you tell us when, who       were doing. The (6) crystalline forms of the    (s) understanding on the different
                     was (s) present, and what was said?              materials that were being (7) analyzed so       methodologies for (io) manipulating
                      (7)    MR. WEBB: Objection, lack of             that we were sure that we could relate (a)     nicotine. And Dr. Wigand confirmed (il)
                    foundation.                                       them to the forms of asbestos that were (9)    that the methodologies that were used at
                      (a)    THE WITNESS: When I became               problematical.                                  Philip (12) Morris were understood and
                     director of (9) applied research in the end of (10)       This was an on-going discussion. It   used at Brown and (13) Williamson.
                     1976 at the very (10) beginning of 1977, I        (11) included Dr. Osdene, Dr. Charles, Mr.     (14)     BY MR. BROWN:
                    formed a group called the (11) biomaterial        Carpenter, (12) Dr. Hasagawa who worked         (15)     Q. AII right.
                    science division whose purpose it was to          for me, Mr. Carter, Mr. John (13) Campbell      (16)     When you were hired in 1976 what
                     ('-z) look at tobacco as a biological material who was vice-president of manufacturing,         did you (17) observe, if any, as to a Philip
                    that we (13) could manipulate and change.          (14) and a fellow whose first name I don't    Morris' attitude in (18) attempting to create
                     (14)     In doing that, I found out that two of  remember right (15i now, but Mr. Taylorwho a safer cigarette?
                    the (1b) people in that group Dr. Ichy           was from the engineering (16) department         (19)     MR. WEBB: Objection, lack of
                    Hasagawa and Mr. Bill (16) Carter were           that was charged with the responsibility (17 )  foundation, (20) the former question calls
                    spending a considerable amount of their           of removing the asbestos once it was found. for speculation.
                     (:') time on behalf of Dr. Osdene,                (le)    And so we had these conversations      (21)     THE WITNESS: As I testified earlier,
                    evaluating whether or ne) not materials          in the (15) period from 1977 through 1979 1    that (zz) was an important part of my
                    found in the manufacturing facility (19)         would say some maybe (zo) two or three          decision to go to (23) Philip Morris was the
                    insulation and things of that type were,         dozen conversations.                            fact that I was convinced that (24) they
                    number one, (zo) asbestos of the type that        (21)     BY MR. BROWN:                        were concerned about the smokers, the
                   was known to be implicated (21) in the             (22)     Q. And the effect of what these       users of (25) their product.
                    emphysema or lung cancer.                        gentlemen (23) were saying to you or saying
                     (=-)    And number two could, in fact, fall     in your presence was (24) that Philip Morris                        Page 131
                    into (23) the tobacco or fall into the           recognized that there was a(z5) synergistic (1) They understood the risk to their (z)
                   cigarettes as they were (2 4) made. So, the       effect between smoking cigarettes and          business. And they were genuinely
                    group reporting to me was effectively (25)                                                      interested in (5) making the product safer
                    analyzing all of the places where cigarettes                          Page 129                  and potentiailygetting out (a) of the
                   were                                               (i) being exposed to asbestos?                business if they couldn't make it safer.
                                                                      (z)    MR. WEBB: Objection, leading            (5)     BY MR. BROWN:
                                         Page 127                    question and (3) lack of foundation.            (s)     Q. Did that attitude ever change
                    (-) made.                                         (4)    THE WITNESS: We all agreed before while where (7) you there?
                    (2)     And Philip Morris was handling and       we (5) undertook the program that such a        (8)     MR. WEBB: Objection, lack of
                   making ^3) tobacco in some fairly old             synergistic effect ;6) occurred such as        foundation 19) for the answer.
                   facilities. And as we (a) would identify          reported in the literature.                     (10)     THE WITNESS: During the time that
                   locations where asbestos might occur, (s)          (7)    And we agreed that Philip Morris       I was (ii) there, I saw very little movement
                   we would cooperate with the manufacturing         would not (6) expose its smokers, if it could  toward the (az) inclusion oftechnoiogies
                   people and (6) then they would try to             avoid it, to the (9) added risk of asbestos.   that would have made that (13) an end
                   remove it.                                        (lo)      BY MR. BROWN:                        goal.
                    (' )    And the purpose of that whole            (11)     Q. All right. Let me ask you a         (14)     As a matter of fact, toward the end I
                   program was (e) to remove the asbestos so question (lz) about conversations that you             saw (15) a deliberate attemptto not do
                   that it would not be (a) synergisticaliy          may or may not have had (13) with the          those kinds of things (, .e) as explained to
                   interactive with the carcinogens in (,^o)         scientific employees of other companies.       me by Mr. Newman who we've discussed
                   tobacco smoke.                                    (14)     Have you ever had a conversation       (1 -^) and other people for fear of liability.
                    (' i)    MR. WEBB: Move to strike the entire with a (11) scientist from another tobacco          (18)     MR. WEBB: I'm going to object,
                    (-2; answer as being completely                  company regarding the (16) manipulation of move to (19) strike, non-responsive.
                   unresponsive by the (13) question asked by nicotine in cigarettes?                                (20)     BY MR. BROWN:
                   counsel.                                          ^17)     A. Yes, I have.                        (21)     Q. Essentially, in 1976 and in those
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                 BSA                           In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation      William Farone, PhD - Vol. I     10/4100                        XMAX(2y72)

                  early :-2: years, were you working with         ::<)   A. Dr. Ken Houghton, for             i report on our naturally occurring czs)
                  scientists who admitted «3 ^ the lung cancer  example, who became ^zs%                        denitrification project.
                  link to smoking cigarettes?                   vice-president of research and
                   ;:<:    A. Yes. The scientists at Philip     development.                                                        Page 136
                  Morris were (25) in my opinion no                                                             (1)    Q. Let me ask you this.
                  different than scientists at                                     Page 134                      (2)   Have you formed an opinion as to
                                                                  1 Dr. Kathy Ellis who succeeded him          whether (3) or not cigarette smoke contains
                                       Page 132                and (z) certain executives.                      cancers which (4) suppress the immune
                         different places which means that the (3)     Mr. James Morgan who was                system in terms of developing (5) lung
                   vast majority <<) of them accepted the       president, I(4) guess, of Philip Morris        cancer?
                   facts as known or the best (3)               U.S.A. at one point. When I(5) was there,        (6)   MR. WEBB: Object to the form of the
                   Information of the time and today that      he was vice-president of marketing.               (1) question, also, lack of foundation.
                   there is a(4) causative relationship          (6)   So, very clearly the people that          (e)   THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the
                   between smoking cigarettes (s) and          were put (7) Into positions of Importance (9) question?
                   removing the materials that cause           within the company and (B) Within the             (10)   BY MR. BROWN:
                   cancer.                                      research and development were all               (11)    Q. Let me back it up a little bit.
                    (6)    As a matter of fact, If you don't   people (9) who would not agree with the          (12)    Explain to us what interleukin is.
                   accept (7) that hypothesis, It's kind of    bulk of the scientific (1o) community that (13)          A. Interleuktn is a chemical that
                   difficult to go any (e) further.            smoking was a cause of cancer.                  your body (14) produces that heips fight
                    (9)    So, the operating phllosophywas      (ii)     MR. WEBB: Move to strike              cancer mutation changes.
                   that the (lo) materials that were In the    non-responsive.                                  (15)    Q. What is your opinion as to
                   cigarette were related to (11) causation     (12)    BY MR. BROWN:                          whether or not (18) tobacco smoke
                   of cancer and that they needed to be         (13)    Q. When you were at Philip Morris,     suppresses that chemical's ability to (17)
                    (12) reduced.                              did you (14) ever hear the phrase paralysis     suppress cancer7
                    (13)    MR. WEBB: Move to strike the       by analysis?                                     (18)    MR. WEBB: Objection, lack of
                   answer as (14) being non-responsive.         (1s)    A. On many occasions.                  foundation (19) fortheanswer,
                   (15)     BY MR. BROWN:                       (16)    Q. Who used it?                         (20)    THE WITNESS: My scientific
                   (1e)     Q. Now, in 1984 were there          (17)    A. It was a phrase used by Cliff       understanding (21) is that there's very
                  selections of in scientists for important    Goldsmith. (1e) At the time that he made strong evidence to support that (22)
                  posts that did not admit (ie) that link      It was, I forget if he was (19) chairman or contention. It's one of the concerns about
                  between cigarette smoke and cancer?          vice-chairman of Philip Morris, (20)             (23) mechanisms relating to cancer and
                   ('-9)    MR. WEBB: Objection, lack of       Incorporated, but I've heard It used In two smoking.
                  foundation (zo) forthe answer.                (21) differentways.                             (24)    BY MR. BROWN:
                   (21THE WITNESS: Yes, there were.             (22)    One was that one way to confuse         (zs)    Q. And is that based upon any
                   (22)     BY MR, BROWN:                      the Issues (23) of causation and what's         studies or
                   (23)     Q. Who were they and what          going on is if you approach (24) a
                  positions did they (24) occupy?              situation in a governmental, if you throw                            Page 137
                   ;25)     A. After this discussion that we   up lots (25) of facts, purported facts or        (1) papers that you can cite to?
                  discussed                                    studies that have to be                          (2)    A. I believe there are several
                                                                                                               papers on it 1(3) think. I've provided
                                      Page 133                                     Page 135                    them to you.
                     - earlier that I had with Mr. Newman -     (1) done, create committees, that you           (4)    Q. What is your opinion as to
                     z)    Q. That was in 1984?                can paralyze an (2) effect to create           whether or not (s) the low tar cigarettes that
                   (3)     A. In 1984 In April. And going back legislation, create regulation. (3) You         are sold commercially (6) deliver the same
                  to the c 4) end of 1983, at the end of 1983  create all of that simply by delaying it, by or less N.N.K.?
                  I was told that I(s) was going to be          (a) analyzing it to death.                      (7)    MR. WEBB: Objection, lack of
                  promoted to vice-president of (6)             (5)    So, if something is going to happen foundation.
                  research and development.                    In a(s) year and you lobby strongly and          (e)    BY MR. BROWN:
                   (1)     And after this discussion with Mr.  throw up a lot of (7) facts, you can make          9)   Q. To the smoker?
                  Newman, (e) It turned out that some of       it last for 10 years or 15 (e) years.            (lo)    MR. WEBB: Objection, lack of
                  the things that Were told (9) to me, that I   (9)    MR. WEBB: Can I just object for the     foundation (11) for that answer.
                  was told that I was no longer going to        (10) record. If you look at the question, the   (112)   THE WITNESS: In terms of the
                   r_o; be promoted to vice-president of       answer was (n1) totally unresponsive. IT        amount of (13) the chemical delivered,
                  research and (11) development.               move to strike.                                 there's clear evidence that (14) the N.N.K.
                   (12;     And If we consider the people who (12)      BY MR. BROWN:                          in some of the iowtar cigarettes is (15)
                  had r.3) worked for me at that time who       (13)    Q. Wouidyou tell us when Dr.           actually increased on an equivalent tar basis
                  all of us operating (14) on the premise      Goldsmith said (14) that.                        (16) compared to the high tar cigarette.
                  that we're talking about carcinogens          (1s)    A. It wasn't Dr. Goldsmith.             (17)    So that, in fact, by decreasing the
                   ;14) In cigarette smoke that cause           (1e)    Q. Excuse me, Cliff Goldsmith,         tar, (1e) we did not decrease the exposure
                  cancer that we're (16) trying to remove.      (17)    A. I think the flrst time that I      to the tobacco (19) specific nitrosamines.
                   (1%)     And then if you look at the people heard It was (ie) probably 1978. I heard         (20)    BY MR. BROWN:
                  who (la) were actually promoted into         it several times at Richmond (19)                (21)    Q. Okay. Do you have an opinion
                  positions, and those'(19) people's           meetings of which there are records we          as to the (22) relative speed with which
                  position was that they didn't believe or     could (20) determine which ones he was          nicotine affects the brain (23) compared to
                   (z^ ) they couldn't be convinced that there there.                                          other delivery systems of nicotine?
                  was anything (2i) in cigarette smoke that (21)        It was also said in relationship to     (24)    MR. WEBB: Objection, lack of
                  was anymore dangerous than, (22) oh,          (22) projects that we were involved In.        foundation (25) for his opinion.
                  candy or applesauce or whatever.             Particulariy, It (23) was I remember it
                   << -Q. And who were those people?           being said in 1980 when we gave (24) the                            Page 138

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                   BSA                         In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation       William Farone, PhD - Vol. I       1014/00                        xMAx(23,23i

                              THE WITNESS: From all of the work -- described earlier o) with Mr. Newman.           what he -; told everybody. And the idea
                              BY MR. BROWN,                          (4)    And somewhere along the way my         was that there would (6) be an orderly
                              Q. First say "yes" or "no".           wife who (5) had also been promised a          transition. And my imminent departure
                       s)     A. Yes.                               promotion, she was the (6; assistant             7) wouldn't change much, if anything.
                     ^el      Q. And what is it?                    manager of the stemmery. The place              (8)   Q. Okay.
                       E1     A. From the work that we did at       where (7) they treat tobacco and break it       (9)   A. And so the next day I was
                    Philip Morris (7) we knew, for example,         into the leaf and tg)stems.                    allowed to come (=0) back and clear out
                    that brain wave patterns (e) changed             (9)    And somewhere around the time          my desk and that was the end of (11) it.
                    within a matter of seconds from the time        frame of ('o) early 1984, right around          (12)   Q. Thatwas 1984.
                       5- that nicotine was used.                   that time, she was told (:,.) that she was      (13)   When was the first time in any
                     (10)      And subsequent studies have          not going to be promoted.                      respect (14) that you became involved in
                    shown that c'.i1 that time frame can be          (!2)    My wife had been promised this        any tobacco controversy (151 after that?
                    anywhere from five to ten (12) seconds.         promotion (13) for several years. And so        (16)   A. It was the very end of 1993. 1
                    I'll give it a medium long term of eight        she filed an E.E.O.C. (14) complaint           was 1171 approached by the Food and
                     (13) and probably you can get it down to against Philip Morris.                               Drug Administration going (10) Into, I
                    about four. And (14) that's quicker than         (15)    And I had several conversations       think It might have been actually over the
                    using an aerosol Inhaler or even (1s)           with (16) Dr. Hausermann and Mr.                (19) Christmas vacation or very close to
                    Intravenous Injection.                          Remington who was his boss at (17) the         that. So near (20) the end of '93. And
                     (16)      MR. WEBB: Objection, move to         time. And they assured me that that had        then in '94 began serious i211
                   strike the (ri) answer. Most of it was           nothing (1 .a) to do with my situation. And    discussions with them.
                    non-responsive.                                 that that wouldn't (19) change anything.        (22)   Q. And why did they contact you?
                      -81      BY MR. BROWN:                         (20)    And then around June of 1984 1         (23)   MR. WEBB: Objection as to why
                        5)     Q. And are there scientific papers   was called (21) into the office and told       they (24) contacted him, lack of foundation.
                   and (20) studies upon which in part you          that I would no longer be (22) promoted.        (25)   BY MR. BROWN:
                   base that opinion?                               That my promotion was going to be (23)
                    (21)       A. That'scorrect.                    cancelled and it was not going to happen.                          Page 143
                      211      Q. All right. Now, in 1984 you left   (24)    So, in conversations with Dr.          ci,    Q. What did they tell you the reason
                   Philip ^13) Morris.                              Hausermann I(25) said, you know, what          was that (2) they contacted you?
                    (24)       Were you fired?                      should I do. And                                (3)    MR. WEBB: Objection, hearsay.
                    (25)       A. Well, that's an open question.                                                    (4)   THE WITNESS: I was contacted by
                   The way                                                              Page 141                   Mr. Gary (5) Light from the Food and Drug
                                                                     (1) Dr. Hausermann said, well, I can't        Administration's (6) investigative division.
                                          Page 139                  give you that (2) kind of advice. You have      (7)   And it should be recalled that I've had
                    ra that I view It I was fired. At one point it to go get an attorney and (3) get an             le) extensive relationships with the F.D.A. in
                   was (2) stated that I resigned, but I was        attorney's advice. I'm not going to give       the past. c9) So, I understood the meaning
                   fired, yes.                                      you W advice on that because that's            of having an (10) investigative person call
                    (3)       Q. All right. And tell us the         contrary to -- go get (s) an attorney.         me. It was a serious (i.) matter.
                   circumstances (4) as to what happened,            (6)   So, I consulted with the same            (12)    And they asked me if I would be
                   what led up to it and what (s) happened.         attorney (7) that my wife was using to         willing to c13) help them understand how
                    (6)       A. In the latter part of 1983, my     file her E.E.O.C. (e) complaint. And I         cigarettes were made. How c14i nicotine
                   then (7) supervisor Dr. Max Hausermann wrote Dr. Hausermann a letter as (9) he                  was manipulated and so on. And I agreed to
                   was instructed by his (e) supervisor Mr.         suggested.                                      t;s) do that.
                   Wally Mcdowell to make a general (9)              (10)    And on July 6, 1984, I was called      (i 6)   BY MR. BROWN:
                   announcement that I would be his                 into an (11) office and I was told that I       (17)    Q. And did you do that?
                   replacement in (10) about six months or          was being terminated (12) for                   (ie)    A. I did that
                   so.                                              insubordination because I had consulted         (19)    MR. WEBB: I'm going to object. The
                    1:=)       Dr. Hausermann had come to           an (13) attorney.                                201 answer as compared to the question
                   Philip Morris (12) from Europe and he             (1a)    Q. Okay. Any further explanation?     was unresponsive (21) and ask that it be
                   was going to go back to Europe.                   (15)    A. No. It was insubordination for     struck.
                      13)      Q. So, you would have been           consulting ue) an attorney. And that was        (22)    BY MR. BROWN:
                   promoted to what (14) position?                  the only explanation that (17) 1 was            (23)    Q. Did you ultimatelywrite a paper
                    (i5)       A. Vice-presidentof research and given.                                             for the t241 F.D.A. on manipulation of
                    e'.el development                                 le)    I actually never saw the document     nicotine?
                    (17)       Q. Which again, if you could explain that was (19) read to me until many              zs)    A. I did.
                   to us, ("e) where is that in the level of        years later as a result of (20) some of this
                   hierarchy?                                       litigation. I was to be escorted off (21)                         Page 144
                    (19)       A. That's one level up from where the premises Immediately by Dr.                   (i1   Q. Okay. In the past at least you
                   I was. And czo) under that scenario, all of Hausermann. And we (22) left.                       have 2) appeared as an expert witness in
                   the directors would have (21) reported to (23)           And I had a very good relationship     several cases, (>) individual cases without
                   me.                                              with 124) Dr. Hausermann. And he asked         charging an expert witness (4) fee?
                    (2 2)      Q. All right. Go ahead.              me if I wouldn't mind (25) him calling a       (s)   A. That's correct.
                      231      A. All right. $etween the fall of,   general conference at the research and         (6)   Q. But I understand that has
                   the end <24) of 1983 and the middle of                                                          changed?
                   1984, Dr. Hausermann asked (25) me to                                Page 142                   (7)   A. That's true.
                   undertake more and more of his duties.           (1) development center with me there           (e)   0. Sadly, I have to say. Sadly I
                                                                    saying that I had (2) resigned. And I said,    understand (9) that.
                                          Page 140                  sure, you know, why not. I (3) tried to be     tlo;   And what is your expert fee now?
                           I'd go in place of him to many, many     helpful.                                        in     A. It's $250 an hour for
                    21 meetings. Such as the one that I            (4)   So, we had a meeting. And that's          deposition or trial (12) testimony.
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                  0$A                             In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation          William Farone, PhD - Vol. I   10/4100                      XMAX(74123)
                    ii-1) MR. BROWN: Okay. Dr. Farone,                people after the (15) meeting, but in the      terminated for insubordination; isthat i2.
                   thank you c:a; very much. That's the end of        meeting on July 6th, 1984, with (za) the       correct?
                   my examination.                                    representatives of Philip Morris who fired      (2=)  A. That is correct.
                    ^1^)   MR. WEBB: Can we take a                    you, (21) as you sat through the meeting,       (23)  Q. Now, if I understand the
                   five-minute r.E) recess?                          ,there was no doubt (<z; in your mind that      testimony that (24) you gave a few minutes
                     1%-   MR. BROWN: Sure.                           you were being fired; is that t23) correct?    ago when Mr. Brown was asking (25) you
                      E)   THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are the                (24)  A. No. There was doubt. I was           questions, that not only were you terminated
                   record at (19) 2:21. ;20;                          given the (zs) choice of being fired or
                   ^.•;    (Recess taken.) (2z)                       resigning by Mr. Case who                                         Page 149
                   ^23)    THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Were back                                                                      (1) from your employment at Philip Morris,
                                                                                              Page 147
                   on the (2 4) recordat2:36. (zs)                                                                         but as a (2) result of your termination at
                                                                           (1) sat In that meeting. So, I didn't have      Philip Morris your (3) wife also then
                                          Page 145                        to be fired. (2) 1 had the choice.               resigned her position from Philip (4) Morris;
                                                                           (3)    And I was so upset that I didn't         is that correct?
                      (1)    EXAMINATION (2)
                                                                          resolve (4) that by the time we ieft I            (5)    A. I'm not sure that's correct My
                      (3)    BY MR. WEBB:                                wanted to talk to Max is, about it so. And
                      (4)                                                                                                  wife had (6) filed a compiaintwith the
                             Q. Good afternoon, Dr. Farone.
                                                                         I think over on the way over to (a) the R &       Equal Opportunity (7) Employment
                     Doctor, my (5) name is Dan Webb. I                  D center, we agreed that, no, I wasn't (7)        Commission.
                    represent Philip Morris. And ;a) I'II be asking fired. I resigned.                                     (e)     And the act of filing thatcomplaint
                    you some questions on behalf of c7) Philip            (e)     Sa, that's why I make the statement      I (9) think that she resolved in her own
                    Morris.                                              that I (9) do. Mr. Case didn't say, you're        mind to leave (io) Philip Morris whether I
                     (8)    In listening to your testimony at the        fi red.                                          did or not
                    end (9) of the questions by Mr. Brown, I              (10)     Q. Well, have you testified - maybe     (i1)     So, my termination did not
                    guess I'd start (io) with this.                     we're (11) notdisagreeing;                        necessarily (12) affect the termination of
                     ui)      In listening to the circumstance under        :.z)   You do agree that you were fired?      my wife. She had already (13) made the
                     (12) which you were terminated or fired from (13)             A. I agree. I was just answering       decision I believe.
                    Philip ci^,) Morris, would you at least agree       your (ia) question about whether or not             14)    Q. Well, let me ask this.
                   with me, Doctor, (:4) that because of those          really it's to be (ls) called being fired or        is)    You were terminated on July 6th,
                   circumstances that it's pretty (is) clear that       resigning. I was given the (16) choice.           1984; is (16) that correct?
                   you have a bias and grudge against (16)                 in      Q. I see. You do agree that you        (17)     A. That's correct.
                   Philip Morris because of the circumstances           were fired?                                       (1e)     Q. And your wife was still working
                   under (i7) which you were terminated from             (16)     A. Oh, yes.                            at Philip (19) Morris on July 6th, 1984?
                   employment?                                           (19)      Q. And flred, meaning, that on that    (20)     A. That Is correct.
                    (i e)    A. No.                                     day when (2o) you went and had the                (21)     Q. And after your termination your
                    (19)     Q. Well, not only were you, as you         meeting with the Philip Morris (21)              wife then i221 resigned from Philip Morris; is
                   used the c20) term, fired from Philip Morris,       representatives on July 6th, you had not          that correct?
                   but am I correct, (21) you also were fired          planned on (22) voluntarily quitting that day;     (23)     A. That Is correct.
                  from Philip Morris under ez2) circumstances is that correct?                                            (24)     Q. Now, would it be fair to say, and
                  where you did not receive a promotion (23)            (23)      A. I had volunteered on two            I think (25) you said this when Mr. Brown
                  that you had expected to receive; is that            previous (24) occasions to quit, yes, I           was asking you
                  correct?                                             did.
                   (24)      A. That's correct.                         (25)                                                                   Page 150
                                                                                  Q. I'm asking on that day--
                   ': s)     Q. And do you believe that the
                                                                                                                            (i) questions that during this time period in
                  combination of                                                             Page148                       1984 (2) before you were actually
                                                                        (1)      A. On that day I didn't, but as early    terminated, you and your (3) wife both
                                         Page 146
                                                                       as a (2) week before that, before Dr.              found yourself having employment (4)
                     :) those circumstances of not only being
                                                                       Hausermann left on his (3) vacation, I             difficulties with Philip Morris during the same
                  fired, but (2) also not receiving a major            volunteered to quit.                               time is) period?
                  promotion that you had (3) expected, do you (4)                Q. Were you actually told in that         (6)    A. I don't understand what you
                  believe that those circumstances (4) just            meeting by (s) Philip Morris that you were         mean by in employment difficulties.
                  might cause you to slant your testimony              being terminated for (s) insubordination;           (e)    If you mean that we were not going
                  against (s) Philip Morris?                          were you told that?                                 to get (9) promotions that we were
                           A. No.                                      in        MR. BROWN: Would you identify who        promised, that's an (, .o) employment
                           Q. Well, let's go through the details a Philip (e) Morris is so that it's clear on the
                                                                                                                          difficulty, yes. Okay. I can agree with
                    E) little bit about what those circumstances      record.                                              (ii) that But beyond that, it was sort of
                 were.                                                   9)      BY MR. WEBB:                             business as (12) usual.
                  (5)     You were explaining that you thought         (10)       Q. Were you told by representatives      (13)    Q. Let me more clear. I think that's
                 that r.o; you were fired.
                                                                      of (11) Philip Morris on Juiy6th, 1984, that        a fair (14) clarification on your part, Doctor.
                  ('-i)     I take it there's no doubt in your mind you were being (12) terminated for                    rns)     By the way as I ask you questions, if
                  c:2 that you were fired from Philip Morris; is
                                                                      insubordination?                                   I (.6) ask you a question that seems
                 there?                                                 in        A. I was read something by Mr.         confusing, just tell (17) me and I will
                  ^=3,      A. There's no doubt in my mind            Barry Case (14) which to my best                   rephrase it. And that may be an (:a)
                 that I was c:a! fired, but there was doubt           recollection of what It says that (ls)             example where I used the term employment
                 In the minds of the ^=5) people who work terminology that was used in that piece                         (iq) difficulties, and I can tell from your face
                 there because of what they were told                 of paper n61 which has been presented              that you (20) may not have understood it.
                   -! about the circumstances of my                  iin evidence In several (17) cases.                 Let me define it. And (zi) that's fair on your
                 termination.                                         (:e)       Q. To the best of your recollection     part,
                   1%       Q. Now I understand that you and                                                              (22)
                                                                      you were (19) told by the Philip Morris                      Before your termination during the
                   -F% Dr. Hausermann had a meeting with
                                                                      representatives that you (2o) were being           several c231 weeks before your termination,
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                   BSA                             In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation         William Farone, PhD - Vol. I     10/4/00                       XMAX(25125)
                     you and your wife (24) were both facing                              Page 153                     (1)   Q. Well, let me ask you this, ifwe go
                     what IT call employment (25) difficulties in          mean, we came to this disagreement. a (2) little bit, let's talk about the events that
                     that both of you had been told                   Virginia is an (2) at will work state. They      (3) actually lead up to your termination,
                                                                    ,couid have told me at any (3) time they           (<)   If I understand the testimony that
                                          Page 151                                                                    you've (5) given here today, at the time of
                                                                      didn't want me to have -- I was just (4)
                      =) during the same time period that you         disappointed in the way that they went          your termination (6) you had served as the
                    were not going (z) to receive individual          about It.                                       director of applied research (7) within the
                    promotions that both of your (3) had               (5)   But as far as bearing a grudge or        research and development department of
                    expected.                                         anything (6) like that, I tried to continue      (a) Philip Morris for approximately seven
                     (4)    Is that fair to say?                                                                      years from (a) 1977 to 1984; is that
                                                                     to be friendly with (7) the people. Send
                     (s)    A. With regard to Philip Morris;         them cards and people invited me (e)             correct?
                    that's (a) correct.                              over afterwards. So, I still feel very close      (10)    A. Correct.
                     (")    Q. Now, at the time that you were        to (9) those people.                              ('-1)   Q. And for some period of time
                    terminated (e) from Philip Morris on that         (10)    We still believe that everything        prior to your (12) termination your boss had
                    date, you held the (9) position as of that       were (ii) doing is in uitimatelythe best         been Dr. Max Hausermann; (13) is that
                    date as director of applied (10) research; is    interest of Phiiip (12) Morris. So, I           correct?
                    that correct?                                    disagree with your characterization (13)         (14)     A. Hewasatthetimeofmy-I
                     (11)    A. That is correct.                                                                     don't (15) understand the question.
                                                                     completely.
                     (12)    Q. And what was your total               (14)    Q. I'm going to ask that the entire     (is)     Q. It's probably a bad question.
                    compensation (13) package at Philip Morris answer be (15) struck. And I'm going to ask            (17)     He was your boss at the time of your
                    at the time your employment (14) was             the question again and (i6) see, I think I'm     (18) termination; is that correct?
                   terminated?                                       going to by in large try to ask you (17)         (19)     A. That's correct.
                     (is)    A. Something on the order of a          questions that you can say "yes" or "no" if      (20)     Q. And how long had he been your
                   hundred (1E) thousand dollars a year.            you can, ne) but my question was very            boss, (21) approximately?
                    ( a7)    Q. Were there any other benefits       simple.                                           (22)     A. Two and a half, three years.
                   just beyond (ie) your salary?                      (19)    Do you believe, do you as you sit       (23)     Q. Okay. And if I understand what
                    (19)     A. Stock options which                 here now 20) talking to me believe that as       you just (24) said a few minutes ago when
                   depending on which (20) year could be            you gave the testimony (21) when Mr.             Mr. Brown was asking you (25) questions,
                   maybe another 15,000 or something like           Brown was asking you questions, do you           there was some point in the last part of
                    (z-) that.                                        (22) believe that the combination of all of
                    (22)     Q. Did you have standard insurance                                                                           Page 156
                                                                    these (23) circumstances of being
                   benefits, (23) etcetera?                         terminated, not receiving a (24) promotion,       (1) 1983 when Dr. Hausermann actually
                    (24)     A. Oh, yes.                            your wife not receiving a promotion, she         was at a meeting (2) of people from the
                    (25)     Q. Now, what was your wife's            (2s) resigning, do you believe that the         research and development (3) department
                   compensation at                                  combination of                                   at Philip Morris and in the meeting he (G
                                                                                                                     announced that he would be stepping aside
                                          Page 152                                       Page 154                    as the (5) head of the research and
                    (i) Philip Morris at the time that she           O all of those circumstances may have left development department; is (6) that
                  resigned after (2) your termination?              a bad taste (2) in your mouth so that you        correct?
                   (3)     A. I don't know.                         would slant testimony (3) against by Philip      (7)     A. That is correct.
                   (4)     Q. You have no idea?                                                                      (e)     Q. And after he made that
                                                                    Morris?
                   (`)     A. No.                                    (4)    MR. BROWN: By my count that's (5)        announcement, at (9) that time you were
                   (®)     Q. Now, let me ask you this, Doctor,     approximately the seventh time that you've       one of five directors in the (10) research
                  do you (3) agree that because you were            asked (6) that question and the answer has       and development department; is that r.l)
                  terminated from Philip (a) Morris and             been a consistent (7) "no".                     correct?
                  because your wife then resigned her (9)            (B)    Now how many times are you going to (:.2)         A. Yes. That's correct.
                  position at Philip Morris, do you believe that    ask it (4 before I finally object to it and we   (13)     Q. And there was no question in
                  the (io) combination of both your wife           have to work (^o) out some other way to do       your mind (14) that you were at least a
                  resigning, you being (11) terminated, neither this deposition?                                    candidate for promotion to (15) replace Dr.
                  one of you getting promotions, (12) do you        (1.)     BY MR. WEBB:                            Hausermann; is that fair to say?
                  believe there's any possibility that those        c12)     Q. Can you answer the question?         (16)     A. That's what I was toid by Dr.
                   (13) events might cause you to slant your        (13)     MR. BROWN: One more time. And          Hausermann.
                  testimony (1 .4) against Philip Morris?          then after (14) that, forget it.                  (17)     Q. And you believed that; didn't
                   (15)     A. No. I think you're forgetting        (15)                                            you?
                                                                             THE WITNESS: Not those
                  one r16; important thing that I testified to. circumstances, no.                                   (.e)     A. Yes.
                  And that is (17) during the last two years        (16)     BY MR. WEBB:                            (19)     Q, And quite frankly your -- strike
                  of my employment with (la) Philip                 (17)     Q. Now, were there other               that.
                  Morris, I was constantly looking for (19)        circumstances that (ie) would cause you to        (20)     In late 1983, six or seven months
                  alternative employment.                          slant your testimony against (19) Philip         prior to (21) your termination, Dr.
                   (-o)     So, Immediately after my               Morris other than those?                         Hausermann actually had called (^-)
                  termination I had (2a) several                    (20)     A. I'm not sure by slant.              another meeting of Philip Morris people from
                  opportunities for employment. And, In             (21)     Could you define what you mean         the (23) research and development
                  fact, (22) for the last 13 years I've been       by slant (22) your testimony?                    department and he actually (24) made an
                  president and C.E.O. (23) of a successful (23)             Q. Yeah. To intentionally distort      announcement that you, William Farone,
                  company. The predecessor I formed (24)           testimony (24) in order to hurt Philip Morris    would (25) be promoted and would become
                  within a week after I left.                      in this proceeding.                              the new vice-president
                  (25)      I had no problems with Philip             zs)    A. No. I would never do that.
                  Morris. I                                                                                                              Page 157
                                                                                        Page 155                     (i) of research and development to replace
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                  Bs,                          In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation       William Farone, PhD - Vol. I      10l4100                      XM.vc(2g126)
                  him; is that (z; correct?                       going to happen because I thought that         iyourseif (10) as a man of honor and
                   (3)   A. Well, I'm confused. There was          (7) was foolish, but I didn't say, no, I       integrity?
                  only one '4) meeting. So, you've now got        don't want the (a) promotion.                    (11)    A. I view myseif as a man of
                  two meetings. So I'm (5) confused.              (9)    Q. Well, you actually agreed that he     ethics. I don't (12i know exactly how you
                  (6)    Q. Maybe I'm confused.                   could (1o) make the announcement?               define honor and Integrity.
                         I thought there was a meeting in which   (11)    A. No, I did not. He told me he          (13)    Q. Do you view yourself as an
                  he (a) announced that he was stepping           was going to ;12) make the                     , ethical person?
                  aside. And there was (°) a second meeting       announcement whether I agreed or not.            (14)    A. I do.
                  where he announced that you would (10) be       And (13) that's what he did. I did not           (15)    Q. As an honestperson?
                  his replacement.                                agree to him making 1141 the                     (16)    A. Itry tobe.
                  (11)    Did that all happen at the same         announcement.                                    (17)    Q. And you had been working at
                  meeting?                                        (15)    Q. When he told you that he was         Philip Morris (ze) for eight years at that
                  (1z)    A. Yes.                                going to (16) recommend you to replace           time?
                    (15)    Q. And I stand corrected. And I      him, and he was going to (11) announce it,        (19)    A. That's correct.
                    accept that (14) correction. Go ahead.       you did not tell him that I don't want (le) the   (20)    Q. Let's start with illegality.
                    (15)    A. I'm just confused because         position, I don't want the promotion?             (21)    If you had thought that you had
                   there was a(16) meeting between him            (19)    A. What I told him was, I don't         witnessed (22) or knew about Philip Morris
                   and I before we had the meeting In with want you to (20) announce It until you're              engaging in illegal (23) conduct in the way it
                   the directors where he made the               ready to make it official.                       conducted it research and (zA)
                   announcement, (16) so.                         (21)    Q. But you were willing to accept       development department, you would never
                    (15)    Q. Let me just clarify. There was a  the (22) position?                               have agreed (25) to become the number
                   meeting zo) in late 1983 where Dr.             (23)    A. On the grounds that he make          one person in charge of that
                   Hausermann indicated that he (zl) was         the promotion (24) at the time that he
                   stepping aside, and he also announced to      made the announcement. But he (25)                                  Page 162
                    (22) everyone in the meeting that you would told me that he was directed by Mr.                (1) department; would you?
                  be promoted (z3) and become the new            Mcdowell to make                                  (2)   A. No. That's not true.
                  vice-president of research and (ze)                                                              (3)   Q. So, even though if you knew
                  development to replace him; is that correct?                        Page 160                    Philip Morris (4) had engaged in illegal
                   (25)    A. That Is correct.                     1) that announcement whether I liked it       conduct, you would still (5) agree to
                                                                or not.                                          become the head of the department?
                                       Page 158                  (2)    Q. After he made the announcement, (6)           A. If you become aware as I was
                   (1)    Q. And you were at the meeting; is     did you (3) tell people that you were willing   of Philip (7) Morris engaging in Illegal
                  that (z) correct?                             to acceptthe (4) promotion?                      conduct, and if you take (a) steps as I
                   (3)    A. That's correct.                     (5)    A. I don't think that it came up one did to stop that conduct from occurring,
                   (4)    Q. Who else was at the meeting?       way or (6) the other.                             (9) then you feel that the company has
                   (5)    A. Dr. Osdene, to the best of my       in     Q. But you were willing to accept the    recognized the (10) problem that it has
                   (6) recollection, Dr. Osdene, Mr. Lou         (a) promotion?                                  made or done and you can in continue
                  Turano, Leo Meyer, (7) Dick Thompson,          (9)    A. I would have accepted It, yes.        to be employed with them.
                  and one other person who I can't (B)           (10)    Q. Well, you were planning on it; is     (12)    And, in fact, if you want to get into
                  recall right now.                             that in correct?                                 it i (13) can describe the Illegal conduct
                   (5)    Q. Some of them you would call your (12)       A. I expected to get it, yes. Okay. that Philip Morris (14) was involved In.
                  peers (10) within the research and             (13)    Q. I assume that at that point in        (15)    Q. We'II go through that, okay, in
                  development department?                       time in (14) your career at Philip Morris that some (i6) detail, but I'm just trying to make
                   (11)    A. They were all my peers.           you were happy (1s) with your employment         sure that I(17) understand what your mind
                   M;      Q. And there's no question in your   situation at Philip Morris or (16) you would     set was at the time as (1e) someone being
                  mind that (1a as a result of that             not have agreed to accept the promotion;         offered this position as the (19)
                  announcement you actually were (14)            (17) is that fair to say?                       vice-president of research and
                  expecting and looking forward to this          (1B1    A. No. That's not fair.                 development, if I (20) understand your
                  promotion;is 1^) that fair to say?             (15)    Q. Okay. Well, let me ask you this.     testimony, even though you believed (,1)
                   (-E)    A. That's fair.                       (zo)    I take it that you were satisfied with  Philip Morris had engaged in significant
                   (17)    Q. And there's no question in your   the (21) way that Philip Morris conducted its illegal (zz) conduct in the way that it
                  mind that ne; you were excited about the      business (zv activities or else you would        operated the research and (23)
                  promotion; is that fair (19) to say?          never have agreed to (23) accept this major development department, you still were
                   (ze)    A. That's fair.                      promotion and agree to spend (24) several        willing to (24) become the vice-president; is
                   (2 1)   Q. And being the head of the         more years at Philip Morris; is that fair to     that correct?
                  research and (zz) development department (25) say?                                              (zs)    A. No.
                  for you would be a major (23) promotion for
                  you and a major development in your (24)                            Page 161                                       Page 163
                  career; is that fair to say?                   (1)    A. No.                                    (1)    MR. BROWN: Objection, ambiguous
                  (z=;     A. That's fair.                       (2)    Q. Okay. If you had believed at that     and vague (2) as to what you mean by that
                                                                time in (3) 1983 and early 1984 that Philip      kind of conduct.
                                       Page 159                 Morris was doing (4) anything dishonest in        (3)    THE WITNESS: You're putting many
                  (1      Q. And after Dr. Hausermann had       the way it conducted its (5) business            words in (4) there. I didn't say anything
                  announced (2) that you would be promoted, activities, as a man of honor and integrity          about significant. (5) And legality is
                  you clearly were willing (3) to accept the     (6) you would never have agreed to accept       something that every citizen must (E)
                  promotion; is that correct?                   this (1) promotion; is that correct?             interpret for themselves.
                  (G)     A. Yeah. I did not say that I didn't   (e)    A. Describe --what do you mean            (7)    And my interpretation of what they did
                  want csi it. I asked him not to make the      by dishonest?                                     (e) that might be considered illegal is less
                  announcement until (6) It was actual           (y)    Q. Well, let me ask you, do you view clear than (9) unethical. But the point is that
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                   BsA                              In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation          William Farone, PhD - Vol. I       10/4100                     xmnx(27127,
                     I'm an ;io) evolutionary. Like you don't leave         rzi things that are potentially Illegal.      effect to change (15) them.
                    the United r.i; States because you believe              (1 21)  So, you do your best in the            (116)  If I knew that I couldn't change
                    that the government has (iz) done                      position of ;14) management of any             them, (17 ) they would have caused me
                    something which you don't agree with.                  company to direct the company in (15)          to quit. But under the (za) assumption
                     1. '--1.) You operate within that system to           what you consider to be the best ethical       that by taking that position I could (za)
                    change (14) it, unless it's so egregious that          direction. (-6) And that's what I tried to     change them, then they weren't severe
                    it needs to be (a) turned over to some legal           do.                                            enough that (20) they couldn't be
                    or lawful authority.                                    (i7)    Q. Let me ask it this way. I think    changed. If that's the answer, I'm (zi)
                     (11a)     So, none of the illegalities if you want    that I(le) understand what you're saying.      not quite sure.
                     f'-%) to call them that rose to the state of           (i ?)   You described when Mr. Brown was       (22)   Q. The things that you've described
                    being ('_e) something that would entice me            I asking (zo) you questions -                   in your (23) testimony here today; you were
                    to call the Federal (i9) Bureau of                      (z.)    MR. BROWN: I'm going to objectto      aware of them when (24) you were offered
                    Investigation and say, we've got a big (20)            your (22) constantly making reference to       this promotion; is that correct?
                    problem here.                                          what he described (23) when I was asking        (zs)   A. That Is correct.
                     (21)      But things are done in any workplace        questions.
                    that (22) need to be changed. And the best             (24)    That's irrelevant. That's improper.                       Page 168
                    way to change that (z3) is to become in a              And (zs) it frequently misstates what he       (1)    Q. And you still agreed to accept the
                    position of authority where you (24) can               said. So, you can                              (2) promotion?
                    challenge it and where you have a voice in                                                            (3)    A. I can agree with that.
                    (zs) making those decisions. And that was                                Page 166                     (4)    Q. And you mentioned that you
                    my attitude.                                         (i) ask the question without telling him what    never saw (5) anything serious enough to
                                                                        he has (z) said. Just ask it.                     go to the F.B.I. you said (6) that a moment
                                         Page 164                        (3)   BY MR. WEBB:                               ago?
                      (1) So, I'm not going to sit here and tell you     (4)   Q. Do you recall the things that you       (7)   A. Correct.
                      (2) that everything that Philip Morris did was just (s) said when Mr. Brown was asking              (s)   Q. I take it nothing ever happened
                     ethical (3) or it was legal because clearly        you questions?                                    during (9) your eight years at Philip Morris
                     any company does (4) things that need to            (6)   A. I believe I do.                        that ever prompted (no) you or caused you
                    be change. And Philip Morris (s) was no             (7)    Q. The things that you described in       to contact any law enforcement (i:)
                    exception.                                         your ( e) testimony when Mr. Brown was            agency; is that correct?
                     (E)    Q. Let me rephrase it. And maybe            asking you questions, (9) things that             (12)    A. That's not correct.
                    we're on O the same page.                          happened at Philip Morris that you just (io)       (13)    Q. Who did you contact?
                     (B)    While there were things that had            described during the last two or three hours,     (14)    A. I contacted the Richmond
                    happened (9) at Philip Morris during the           none (11) of the things that you described in     Police (15) Department.
                    eight years that you (10) worked there that        your testimony (12) was serious enough or          (i6)    Q. And describe what happened.
                    you did not agree with or that you (i.) would caused you enough concern that (13)                     (17)    A. 1 was able to flnd out about
                    like to see changed, there was nothing that        prompted you to turn down this promotion; is      charges (1a) lodged against one of the
                     (12) happened at Philip Morris that you felt      that (14) correct?                                people that worked In my (191
                   was so (13) sinister or illegal or bad that          (ls)    A. That's correct, because the           directorate who was going to be
                   would cause you not (14) to acceptthis              things that (16) did disturb me I believed        terminated by (20) Philip Morris for the
                    appointment?                                       by taking the promotion I(11) could               use of controlled substance, (21)
                     (ls)    A. That's better.                         affect the change of making them come             basically, marijuana, without any
                     (16)    Q. Is that correct?                       into (ie) being.                                  hearing, without (22) any ability to
                     c.^)    A. That's correct.                         (19)    It isn't because I agreed with or        defend themseives. Because he had
                    (^e)     Q. And so I take it that you              liked (20) all of those things. But by me         (2 3) been charged by the Richmond
                   recognize that (i°) at any company that you becoming (21) vice-president of research                  Police Department with (24) possession
                   -- strike the question.                             and development, putting (22) Into                of marijuana.
                    ^-r)     If I understand what you're saying is     products the beneficial technology that           (25)    Q. Now that episode involving the
                   that ^--=; people that work in large                we had (23) developed would have been             possession
                   organizations with large (22) numbers of            more likely because I(z4) would have
                   employees, dealing with complicated and             pushed those things harder than my (zs)                               Page 169
                    ;-) sometimes complex business, and in             predecessors.                                      (i) of marijuana by this employee, you did
                   this case (24) scientific issues, there may be                                                        not describe (z) that when Mr. Brown was
                   things that you, (2s) Dr. Farone, may not                                Page 167                     asking you questions; is (3) that correct?
                   have agreed with, but that was                              Q. So, can you answer my question?         (4)   A. No. I was just answering your
                                                                       (2)     MR. BRCWN: He just did.                   question.
                                        Page 165                       (3)    THE WITNESS: I think that I did.            (s)   Q. So, and that's fair.
                    (.) not serious enough to cause you to say         (4)     BY MR. WEBB:                               (6)   So, in connection with all of the
                   that I don't (z) want to be associated with         (5)    Q. I want a clear answer.                  matters (7) that you described in your
                   this association any (3) longer?                    (e)    My question was, am I correct none of      testimony here today?
                    (4)     A. Philip Morris had 80,000               the (7) things that you described during the        (s)   A. Limited to that. I see.
                   employees. (5) You're not going to find            testimony that (a) you gave when Mr. Brown          (9)   Q. I'll go ahead and ask, in
                   80,000 people of any type (6) that don't           was asking you questions (9) during the last       connection with (10) all of the matters that
                   do things that you regret that they wouid several hours here today, none of (io) those                you described in your (ii) testimony here
                   (7' not otherwise do. And this Includes            things that you've described in your               today when Mr. Brown was asking you (=2)
                   peopie in (s) management.                          testimony (ii) caused you enough concern           questions.
                   (9)      And you have to distinguish               to want to turn down this (iz) promotion; is        (13)   Did any of those matters that you
                   between the ( :o) company as a whole              .that correct?                                       (14) described, did you report any of those
                   and Individuals within the (11) company             (-3)     A. It's difficult to answer without      to any law (1s) enforcement authority during
                   who are doing things that may be doing             the f14) provision that I would have the           the time that you were (i6) at Philip Morris?
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                  esA                             In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation             William Farone, PhD - Vol. I           10/4/00                     xMnx(serze)
                        •     A. No. It is my understanding that                  A. That's correct.                          trips to universities, Virginia Polytechnic
                      those        matterswerenotiiiegal.                         Q. That's the Barclay cigarette?             (22) Institute, Virginia State University,
                      !i9,    Q. The ones that you've described             e)    A. Right.                                   Virginia 123 Commonwealth University,
                     in your c_^oi testimony?                           (20)      Q. Barclay is not made by Philip            William and Mary, Old (24) Dominion, In
                      ;z'-    A. Correct.                              Morris; is (2:) that correct?                          the locality; actually, we had iz.
                      (22)    Q. And the matters that you've            (22)      A. As far as I know.                        contracts with M.I.T.
                     described in ;23; your testimony here today        ;23       Q, As far as the conduct that Philip
                     when Mr. Brown was asking t24) you                Morris c24was engaged in, did you go to                                    Page 174
                     questions about things that you saw and           any agency and ever (25 complain about                 (i And when I would go to those (z)
                     observed (25) at Philip Morris when you           Philip Morris' conduct?                               organizations, I would discuss the fact
                     were working there, did                                                                                 that we were (3) producing a product
                                                                                             Page 172                        that caused disease and that was (4)
                                         Page 170                       (1)     A. One of the problems, Mr. Webb, addictive and explained our programs,
                       : you ever prepare - strike the question.      Is that (2 there is no agency to complain sort of (s) apologetically trying to make
                     cz     In connection with the matters you (3)    about Philip Morris' (3) conduct. The                  this better. If you (6) want to call that a
                     described in your testimony when Mr. Brown answer Is no because no agency exists                        professional complaint, I can (7) say
                    was c4 asking you questions about things           (4) that has over authority over Phllip               that I did.
                    that you saw at 1s) Philip Morris, did you        Morris unless (s) maybe the I.R.S.                      (e)    I don't think of It as being a
                    ever fiie any written reports (6) with the Food (s)         Q. The answer is you didn't do it?           compialnt. (9) I think of It as simply
                    and Drug Administration complaining (7)            (7)      A. That's correct.                           telling the truth and trying (io) to get
                    about those matters?                               (s)      Q. But let me tryto find someone             people outside your Industry to help you
                     (a)    A. I guess I don't understand the         else.                                                   (ii) change that status.
                    question. (91 Its my understanding at the (9)              You had scientists working for you that (12)            But to the extent that we were
                    time and currently that (io) the Food and          (io) belonged to professional societies and          doing (i3) things that I wished had been
                    Drug Administration does not have (11)            associations; (11) is that fair to say?               done differently, (14) those were
                   authority over those matters. So, why               (121      A. That's fair to say.                     discussed outside of Philip Morris with
                   wouid you ('-z file a complaint with               (=3)       Q. And those professional                   (15) members of the academic
                   them.                                             associations and (14) societies they have              community and the (16) professlonais
                    (13      Q. I'm asking'rfyou did?                some say so over the misconduct (is) of                that you were talking about.
                    (as ^    A. The answer is no but I don't         people in their profession; is that fair to say?        (17)      Q. And those matters that you
                   see the --                                         n6         MR. BROWN: I am going to object,          talked about (is) with the academic
                    (15)     Q. I'll broaden the question.            (17) ambiguous and vague as to what                   community that you described --
                    (=6)     Did you file as to the matters that    you're talking about.                                    (19)     A. Right.
                  you've ^17 talked about during your direct          (1e)      THE WITNESS: They can't get you              (20)      Q. -those matters were not such
                   examination of (ie) things that happened         fired or (19) anything.                                that would (2 i) ever cause you not to
                  while you were at Philip ci5 Morris, did you        (zo        BY MR. WEBB:                              accept this promotion?
                  file any type of written report with (20any         (21)      Q. Let me ask you the question.             (22)      A. That's correct.
                  outside agency complaining about these              (22)       Is there anything that your scientists     (23)      Q. In fact, am I correct, in
                  matters?                                          or (23) anyone at the research and                     accepting this (24) promotion to be the
                   (21)     A. I participated In one such           development department at (za) Philip                  number one person, the (25) vice-president
                  filing, yes.                                      Morris ever did that ever caused you to go to of the research and development
                   122      Q. And what was that?                    (25) any professional society and complain
                   (23)     A. Philip Morris had a choice at        about their                                                                  Page 175
                  one point (z4) whether to make a                                                                          (1 department, were you probabiypianning
                  cigarette that matched the Barclay (25)                                   Page 173                       on spending a (2) good number of years at
                  or whether we complained about the                 (1 conduct?                                           Philip Morris thereafter; (3 was that your
                  Barclay.                                           (2)       A. The people that I had authority          plan?
                                                                    over (3) worked for me. I didn't have to                ca      A. Probablynot.
                                        Page 171                    go to a i4 professional society to                      (s)     Q. To implement all of these
                          And I think I was instrumental in (z)     reprimand them for something (s) they                  changes that you (s) told you wanted to
                 convincing Philip Morris to file a                 did wrong. I took action myself.                       implement?
                 compiaintwith (3) the Federal Trade                 (6)       So, the answer I guess is, no, but I         (7)     A. The position Is that you
                 Commission concerning Barclay (4)                  don't (7) understand the relevance of                  attempt to (e) Implement the changes.
                 cigarette as opposed to joining B& W               that question to (e) anything.                         And If, in fact, you're not (9) successful
                 making a cs product that was as                    (°)        Q. Is the answer no?                        In a couple more years, I think I was 44
                 deceitful as the Barclay (e) cigarette.            (.o)        A. I guess so.                             c10i at the time, I probably would have
                  (7)      Q. I asked you -- I want to make sure cii            Q. I'm trying to find -- as far as l can left.
                 we are ^6) on the same page.                       now ct.z tell during all the years that you            (11)       I had already looked for other
                  : G:     As far as the things that you told us   were at Philip (i3) Morris, you never went              (12) opportunities where changes might
                 here nci today, Mr. Brown was asking you          and complained to anybody (14) outside of              come at a swifter (13) rate. I was there
                 questions, you (:!) didn't mention the            Philip Morris about any of the things (is)             for eight years and I didn't see tio the
                 Barclay cigarette; did you?                       that you've testified about in your testimony? changes occurring fast enough that they
                  (:z)      A. I mentioned manipulating tar         (16)        A. No. I don't think that's true at       needed (15) to be made.
                 and nicotine. (=- That was the purpose            all.                                                    (' 6)     I probably would not have stayed
                 of the Barclay cigarette,                          (=-1)       Q. Who did you complain to and            unless by (17) obtaining that promotion
                 ('-s)      Q. The complaint that you filed        what did you (ie) say?                                 and being heard that I(ie) would - it
                 regarding (ir ) Barclay was a complaint in         (i9)        A. As part of the on-going work           would create a change. If I couldn't :9)
                 connection with a (is) cigarette                  that we did, czoi myself and my people                 make a difference, then I wasn't going to
                 manufactured by B & W; is that correct?           made many company approved (21)                       I stay.
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                   esA                          In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation        William Farone, PhD - Vol. 1       10/4/00                      XMAX(29779)
                    (20)    Q. But you would not have accepted      memos c.9; written to Leo Meyer who             they happened.
                   the (z.) promotion unless you planned on         was the director of product (20)                 czz±   A. pkay.
                   staying for some (2-) period of time; is that    deveiopment which indicated how we felt.         ;z.i   Q. And other than the alkaloid, the
                   correct?                                          ;21)  They could make a safer product          burley (zq) memo about Merit, are there
                    (13)   A. I would not accept the                or better 22) product and sort of               any others?
                   promotion unless I(24) thought I could           complaining in a lateral way of (23)             (25)   A. Well, since you put it in the
                   make a difference; that's correct.               saying, okay, look, these are things that       way that you
                   (2 5)   Q. Which would take some time?           you should (24) look at as opposed to
                                                                    some of the things that you (25) are                                  Page 180
                                    Page 176                        looking at.                                         (1) did, these concerns are addressed,
                     (=)   A. That would take a couple of                                                              not necessarily (z; by my memos, but by
                    years, yes.                                                           Page 178                     the memos of the people working (3) for
                     (2)   Q. Now, let's look inside Philip            (1) So, I tried to use the normal course of me that, In fact, publish these reports on
                    Morris. And (3( I've been asking you               ;z) persuasion and memo writing                 a(4) quarterly basis of which case there
                    questions about whether you (a )                  without, you know, (3) putting it on the         are probably (s) hundreds.
                    complained to people outside of Philip Morris bulletin board to try to affect (a) these             (6)   Q. I'm asking about your memos,
                    about (5) any of the conductthat occurred         changes.                                         sir.
                   that you are now (e) testifying about in this       (s)   Q. I'm talking about did you ever          (7)   A. No, no. It doesn't work that
                   proceeding.                                        prepare any (6) memos memorializing what way. I'm (e) sorry.
                    (7)    Did you ever prepare any written           are now of some of the (7) allegations you're (9)       Q. Can you first tell me whether you
                   memos (8) during the eight years you were          making, for example, against ce) Dr.            -- what (10) memos you prepared. Then
                   at Philip Morris (9) whereby you                   Osdene that he told you that he was going to we'll go on and ask you.
                   memorialized and put into writing some (io         (9) destroy and did destroy Philip Morris         (ii)   A. Generally speaking, directors
                   of the complaints or criticisms of Philip         research (10) documents?                         didn't (12) prepare memos, except to
                   Morris' (1-) conduct that you are now              (11)    A. Did I -- I memorialized It. I don't summarize the work of their (13)
                   presenting in the form of (12) your               know (12) that I wrote a memo about it. I        subordinates. And so the memos then
                   testimony?                                        talked about It to (13) both Dr. Seligman        that you need r_a) to look at where every
                    (1=)    A. Well, I've been asked that            and Dr. Hausermann.                              year we were asked to review, (is) all the
                   several times (14) and I think that's the          (14)    Q. I'm just asking about, do you        projects that we had, what we did, and
                   case. I can remember one (15) memo                have any cls) written memos, where you           what (16) we recommended.
                   that I wrote to Dr. Seligman complaining          prepared any memos (16) memorializing             (17)    And there are a series of those.
                   of the (16) focus on using high alkaloid          this when you were at Philip Morris?             They (18) were done quarterly.
                   burley in Merit to (17) increase the               (17)   A. I didn't have to, he did.             Sometimes there was a big one (19)
                   nicotine to tar ratio.                             (:e)    Q. I'm asking if you did?               done in preparation for budget. So in
                   (1a)     And I advocated and towards the           (a9)   A. No. I didn't have to do It            those memos I(20) provide my best
                  end of my (15) employment at Philip                because he did (20) it.                          input as to what I think needs to be (-,1)
                   Morris was successful in (-o) obtaining a          (zi)    Q. Did you not do it?                   changed and how It needs to be
                   program to genetically modify tobacco to (22)             A. No, I do it. I didn't need to.        changed .
                   (21) decrease so that we would have                (23)   Q. I understand, so we've now             (22)    Q. And what memos are those?
                   strains of tobacco (22) that were low In          established (za) that you wrote a memo            (23)    A. Okay. They're quarterly
                  alkaloids inciuding T.S.N.A.                       about high alkaloid burley (25) being used in reports for my (24) directorate.
                   (23)     I think I memorialized that, I'm         Merit?                                            (zs)    Q. Who prepares the report?
                  pretty (za ) sure. As a matter of fact, I
                  think some of the web (25) sites I've seen                             Page 179                                         Page 181
                  that memo. I don't have a copy of                  (i)    A. That's correct.                         (i)   A. I do.
                                                                     (z;    Q. What's the date on that memo,          cz,    Q. They're quarterly reports that you
                                       Page 177                      (3) approximately?                               (3) prepare?
                   (' % It with me, but I think that I recall that.  (4)    A. '79 or'80, during that time            (4%    A. Right.
                   (-)    So, I memorialized the fact that I        frame.                                            (s)    Q. Okay. And in those quarterly
                  was not (3 all that keen on using high             (s)    Q. And you wrote a memo about a          reports did (6) you memorialize, for
                  alkaloid tobacco in (4) Merit because we          political (s) contribution by an employee, a      example, the allegations (7) against Tom
                  knew that the more burley you had, (5)             matter that you've ^7) not talked about in      Osdene?
                  the more biologically active It would be.         your testimony?                                   (B)    A. No, I didn't. And Tom Osdene -
                  So, (e) that's one that I recall.                    e)   A. That's correct.                       no, I did (9) not have to memorialize
                   (7)    I think that I also memorialized In a      (9)    Q. So, I'll leave that.                  those things In a report. no; That's not
                  memo (e to Dr. Seligman some - what I              (10)    A. I'm not interested In It. I Just     part of the scientific work of my (11)
                  consider to be (9) Illegal campaign               was (1i) trying to be complete.                  directorate. It has nothing to do with
                  political contributions being made (1o)            (12)    Q. I'm trying to find out about, I've   doing (1z) research to reduce -- that we
                  by one of our employees through the use asked (i3) you to tell us about the things                 were doing.
                  of the (1l) Philip Morris computer                that you've now been (14) testifying about in     (13)    So, I didn't memorialize those
                  system and stopped that (12)                      this proceeding here today for (15 the last      things.
                  Immediately. And that stopped that one.           several hours that you're accusing Philip         (14)    Q. Dkay. Now, I take it you
                  (13)     So, I think there was a memo that         (16) Morris of or complaining about or          assumed that if ("-e) you received this
                  was (15) written on that, but I don't recall commenting on.                                        promotion to become the (16)
                  exactly what (ns ) year that was.                  (i^)    A. Qkay:                                vice-president of research and development
                  ('-6)    And there were several other                      Q. I'm trying to find out whether       that you ('=%) would receive more money
                  memos. I(17) memorialized some of the             there are ii9i any written memos that you        and compensation; is that (ie) fairto say?
                  recommendations that I have (ie) given            prepared over the years t2o) to memorialize r_9           A. It was never mentioned.
                  and testified to In other testimony In            your concerns back at the time that (21)          (20)    Q. I just asked if you assumed that
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                 esA                           In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation         William Farone, PhD - Vol. 1        1014/00                       xMAx(sor^o)
                  you would zreceive more money?                   significant upper level (z,) management            (23)   And so If they couldn't maintain
                   (^=!    A. I don't assume much of               changes between the time of the (24)               any of (24) the commitments, I was
                  anything.                                        announcement in June of '84, that you              concerned about the company. (25) So, I
                   (23)    Q. So, you did not assume that?         could say that (zs) about any month in             may have been angry and upset, but not
                   (<4%    A. No, of course. I mean, I think       between there, but yes.
                  that it's i2`-) a silly question. If you're                                                                            Page 186
                  going to get promoted,                                              Page 184                         (1) necessarlly about that one facet of
                                                                   (i)    Q. Well, let me try to, around the          the meeting.
                                       Page 182                   time (2) period of June of 1984, did you             (2)   Q. What is it that you are angry and
                        ; you assume that there's going to be     learn that (3) Dr. Hausermann's boss who I          upset (3) about then?
                   some increase in (2) compensation.             believe was (4) Mr. Mcdowell, was being              (4)   Let me ask the question--
                    (3)     Q. So, you did?                       replaced by Mr. Remington; (5) did you               f5)   A. Angry about -
                    (4)     A. Well, I don't - yeah, I suppose I learn that?                                           (6)   Q. That's a bad question. That's my
                   did. (4) It's logical.                          (6)    A. No.                                      fault.
                    (a)     Q, And during the same time period     (7)    Q. When did you learn that?                  (7)   My question was were you angry and
                   of 1983 to (7) 1984 you assumed your wife       (e)    A. Well, that happened --that               upset (e) because you weren't going to get
                  would also receive a(e) raise in connection     happened (9) earlier in the end of '83 or           this promotion?
                  with her promotion; is that fair (9) to say?    the early part of'84.                                (9)   A. Not specifically the promotion.
                   (lo)      A. That's less clear to me, but       (io)    In June when I learned that I wasn't        (10)   Q. Let me ask it, were you angry
                  let's say u!) that's true. I won't disagree     going (ii) to be promoted, I learned that           and upset (ii) about the change in plan to
                  with that.                                      Mr. Remington who (12) only had that                give you the promotion?
                   (12)      Q. As a result of the promotion that position for five or six months who (13)             (12)   A. The change in pian was what I
                  you were (13) going to receive, and the         had validated the fact that I was still             was angry (13) and upset about, not
                  result of the promotion (14) that your wife     going to be (14) promoted was going to              because of the promotion (14) because
                  was going to receive from Philip (15) Morris, be replaced by Mr. Mark (15) Serrano,                 It indicated to me that the person that
                  you and your wife entered into an agreement still a third person.                                   was (15) going to be brought Into
                   (16) to purchase a different house; is that     (ib)    So, Mr. Remington lasted about             replace me was Dr. Ken (16) Haughton,
                  correct?                                        five (17) months.                                   coming in from Europe who was totally
                   (i7)      A. Now we've been through this.       (ie)    Q. Okay. Well, am I correct that it         (17) famlliarwith Imbifo.
                  The answer (le) to that is no. My wife and was in (i9) June of 1984 that Mr. Remington               (1e)   He was a person who would deny
                  I have a pre-nuptial (19) agreement             came to Richmond and (20) had a meeting             causation. (19) He would deny addiction.
                  where all of the real estate belongs to         with you and Dr. Hausermann in which (zi)           And that said to me that (zo) the
                   ro) her.                                       the subject matter of your promotion came           company was going to change the
                   (zi)      So, my wife entered Into that        up; is (22) that correct?                           modus operandi (21) and go into what
                  agreement to (zz) purchase that house            (za)    A. That is correct.                        Mr. Newman described to me as being
                  on the basis of her salary and (23) her          (24)    Q. And in that meeting in June of           (22) the ostrich defense. Hear no evil,
                  salary alone. Which is why her not getting 1984 (25) Mr. Remington advised you that                 see no evil. We (23) don't want to know
                  the (za) promotion was so important to          there were major                                    anything bad. That was clearly (24) at
                  her. And mine was of (25) not too much                                                              odds with my view and perception of
                  relevance.                                                          Page 185                        Philip Morris (25) as a company. So,
                                                                   (i) management changes that were going             that's why I was angry.
                                       Page 183                   on at Philip (2) Morris and that any
                     i)     Q. Maybe I should ask it this way and commitment made in the past (3) regarding                               Page 187
                  maybe (z) we should just do it factually.       your promotion should be considered by you             1)   Q. Actually, have you ever testified
                   0;      The purchase of the new home came       (4) as null and void; is that the upshot of that    that you (2) were angry because when this
                  after ^.) both you and your wife were            (5) meeting?                                        happened you were also (3) angry because
                  promised these (F^ promotions factually in       (6)   A. That's correct. That was in, I             your wife was not being promoted?
                  time; is that correct?                          think, the ('%) second week of June of                (4)   A. I don't know If I've testified that
                           A. I believe that's true.              1984.                                                I was (5) angry.
                     7?     Q. And you were going to live in the   (8)   Q. And that's essentially what                 (a)   Did I use those words in some
                  house (a) with your wife?                       happened at (9) the meeting; the way that I          testimony?
                   (°)     A. That was the plan.                  described it is correct (lo) as far as what           (7)   Q. Well, actually, let me first ask
                   (I .o)    Q. Now, at the time that Dr.         happened in the meeting?                             you, were ( e) you angry - at the time that
                  Hausermann had (ii) announced that you           (II)    A. Well, a lot of things happened           you found out that (9) you're not going to be
                  would be promoted to the position (12) of       in the (12) meeting, but that was one of             promoted, you found out that (10) your wife
                  vice-president of the research and              them, yes.                                           was not going to be promoted, either (1i )
                  development i'.') department, you actually       (13)    Q. And when you learned from Mr.            because she wasn't being promoted or you
                  viewed what Dr. Hausermann (14) said to         Remington (14) that you would not be                 weren't (12) being promoted, did you get
                  you as some type of verbal contract that        receiving this major promotion (=-) at Philip        angry?
                   (!s) made a commitment to you that you         Morris at the time it made you upset and              (13)   A. 1 generally don't get very
                  would receive this (i6) promotion; is that       (16) angry; is that correct?                        angry, but (!<) speciflcallyatthattime
                  correct?                                         (17)    A. No. I don't think that's correct.        the anger about my wife's (15)
                     - 7)    A. That's correct.                   I(-e) mean, I don't remember. The point              promotion was that Philip Morris had
                       e)    Q. And what happened is that it was was that (1°) Dr. Hausermann, that what               signed In the (16) past concent decrees
                  in June (--) of 1984 that you learned about     made me upset and angry Is czo) that Dr.             with female employees about (17)
                  some significant (zo) upper level               Hausermann was apologetic. Mr.                       complaints exactly the type that she was
                  management changes at Philip Morris; is         Remington (2i) didn't know whether he                making.
                   ;z:.) that correct?                            was going to be able to keep (zz) his own             (1e)   And I felt this was a step
                   (22)      A. There were so many                Job.                                                , backward over (19) the agreements that
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                   esA                                 In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation           William Farone, PhD - Vol. I          1014/00                          xmAx(31131;
                       we had made with the Equal (20                      c2:      MR. BROWN: I'll tell you what, if           going to be the head of R & D, (zs)
                       Opportunity Employment Commission                  you're (zz going to be around tomorrow,               vice-president of the R & D department,
                       about better (21) treatment for females. !we'II look at it (23) tonight and see if it's in               you hired a
                        (22)    i mean, if she wasn't going to be         context.
                        (23) promoted, why mention it to her in            (z<)    You can go ahead and ask the                                      Page 192
                       the first place. (24) Why change It. Why           question now. (25) I'm just making the                 (1) lawyer; didn't you.
                       nottaik about some, you know, (z5)               jobjection,                                              (2)    So, I never got a chance to explain
                       lateral aerobesk and the Peter's principle.                                                              why 1(3) was upset about my wife's --
                                                                                                Page 190                        why that answer was. (4) He didn't give
                                           Page 188                        iI;    MR. WEBB: Okay. If you think that I'm me a chance to say that.
                       (i So, yes, I'm angry. I'm angry with the           (z' taking something out of context, I want           (5)    I answered, Dr. Hausermann
                       (z) companyforchanging its style of               you to look (3) at the fuil transcript. I've just      suggested that ( 6l I retain an attorney.
                       management, not (3) necessarily                   tried to simplify (4 it. I have the full transcript Question, and you retained an (71
                       because I didn't have any trouble (4)              and I'm happy to (s) have you look at it,             attorney.
                      forming another company, finding                   okay, either now or later.                              (a)    And as far as I know we never
                      another job.                                         (6)    BY MR. WEBB:                                 came back to (9) the reason which I've
                       (5)    I'm notangry other than the fact            (7)     Q. Actually, let me just -- I'll just ask   just given you as to why I was no upset
                      that I( 6) see eight years' worth of work           (a you, sir.                                         about my wife's promotion.
                      that I worked for (7) going down the                (9      Do you remember being asked this              (11)     Q. I'm sorry. I want to make sure
                     tubes because some management                       question, (10) you were angry about the               that I(12) understand. I want to make sure
                     change (e) Is causing a change in the               change in plan; weren't (ii) you. And your            that the record is (13) clear.
                     psychology of this (9) company.                     answer was, no, I can't say I was. I (12) was          (14)     In this case this was a trial in front of
                      (10)     Instead of being good guys and            angry because my wife, who was also                    (15) a jury; is that correct?
                     doing what (11) they're supposed to,                promised a (13promotion had been told                  (16)     A. That is correct.
                     they're going to bury all of (12) the safe         the same thing that she (14) wasn't going to (17)                Q. And a lawyer asked you the
                     cigarette technoiogy. They're going to              be promoted either.                                  following (1e) question, you were angry
                      (13) deny causation. They're going to                 15     Were you asked that question and            about the change in plan; (19) weren't you.
                     deny addiction. (14) And that's how                did you c1e) give that answer?                          (20)     And your answer was - let me just
                    they're going to do their business.                   (17      A. Read the next question.                 read (zi) your answer. Your answer is, no, I
                      (15)     Q. Do you recall ever giving               (1e      Q. I will,                                 can't say I was. (zz) I was angry because
                    testimony under (ie oath that at the time            (=5       A. I said that I wasn't. The first         my wife, who was also promised a (23)
                    that you were told that you (17) were not           answer Is (20) there that I wasn't angry              promotion, had been told the same thing
                    going to be promoted that you were angry            about the change in plan. (21) I was                  that she c24i wasn't going to be promoted
                     (i6) because your wife had been told the           angry about what my wife was told. And I either.
                    same thing?                                         was (22) cutoff from finishing the                     (zs       Now, are you saying that you got
                     (19)      A. I'd have to see the testimony. I sentence. If you read the (23) next
                    don't (20) recall it.                               question, you'll see.                                                       Page 193
                     (21)      Q. Let me just actually, I can give       (24       Q. I will, but I've got take it one at a    (i) interrupted and did not get to complete
                    you the (zz) full transcript if you want it.         (z.) time.                                           your answer?
                     (23)      Let me hand to you what I will hand to                                                          (z      A. Yes. The next sentence, we'il
                    you (za) in a moment to refresh your                                       Page 191                       get to that (3) in a second. That's Mr.
                    memory. It purports to (25) be testimony             1. Were you asked the question that I just           Lombardi, your associate.
                    you gave in the case of the State of                 (2 read and did you give that answer?                 (4)     Q. We'll get to that in a second.
                                                                         (^,     A. I gave that answer.                        '5]     Is there anything in the transcript that
                                          Page 189                       (4)     Q. And then do you want to read the           (e) would indicate that you did not get a
                     (= Washington versus the Tobacco                   next (F question and answer?                          chance to (7) finish your answer?
                    Companies on (2) November 5th, 1998.                 ;6)     A. I want to read the next                    (e      A. Generally speaking, they don't
                     (3      Do you remembertestifying in that         question.                                              have things (9) like that in transcripts,
                   trial?                                               (7       Q. Okay. And it cuts off on the              but sometimes they do.
                     (4^     A. I do.                                  bottom of (e) the page. So, I'm going to               (lo)       Q. Now, sir, it's understandable
                     (s^     Q. And I have marked a page here          show you the fu ;(9) transcript right now. I'm that when c11i you get angry if you were
                   which is (e page 4991. And I've highlighted going to hand it to you (10) so that you can                   expecting a promotion, (12 your wife was
                   the Q. and A. And (7 you can just look at it        see it.                                                expecting a promotion, and you both (13)
                   and tell me if that (e) refreshes your               (li       And are you looking now on page            found out about the same time that you're
                   memory.                                             4991 of ('_2) the transcript?                         not (14 getting promoted, that's not unusual
                    (9       MR. BROWN: I'll object to the              (=3)      A. Yes.                                    to get angry (15) about; is it?
                   question (ic because you're showing him              n4i       Q. Okay. You go ahead if you want,          (16)      A. No. It's not unusual to get
                   such a small amount of a(ii transcript              do you is v ant to read the next question            angry about. (i>) I can agree with you
                   which as we know is three separate (12)             into the record and ne the answer?                    there.
                   volumes going over three separate days.              (17)      A. Yes. The question is, we'll get          (ie)      Q. Thank you.
                    (•3       So, I think that it's objectionable that to that (ie) in a second. That's one of the n9                   A. But I still insist that the anger
                    (:4) you're referring to a deposition and          favorite ploys of n 9 never getting back              had to (20) do with the change in
                   showing him (z5 three iines.                        to it.                                                deportment of the company and (21) not
                    (=e       MR. WEBB: I'II show him the full (17)     (20)      But the fact is, sir, that when you        with our specific circumstances.
                   transcript,                                         heard (21) about the change in plans,                  ;2z       Q. Now, I believe that you just
                    ;11 e;    Ed, can you help me. Can you show        referring back to the (22) change of                  referred to (23 this, but I'II just clarify for the
                   him the (-9) full transcript of the trial to see if plans and not to why I was upset about               i record.
                   there's (za) anything that the doctor would         my (43) wife's termination, and you                    (24)      When you were told in June of 1984
                   like to -                                           found out that you were (ze) no longer                that (z° ) you were not going to receive the
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                 BSA                          In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation          William Farone, PhD - Vol. I       10/4/00                       XMAX(32132) ,
                  promotion, the                                   c24i   So, on that basis the question                                   Page 198
                                                                   wouid be, (25) well, can Iwork for this           !1) remedies would be?
                                      Page 194                     guy or not work for this                          (2)      A. No. He told me what they were.
                        decision that at least upset you enough                                                     I didn't (3) ask him. Lawyers do that, you
                  that it cz! caused you to go out and hire a                            Page 196
                                                                                                                    know. You don't have (4) to ask them.
                  lawyer in order to c') see if you had any                guy or what did that mean.               They will tell you what they think is (5)
                  legal remedies against Philip (<i Morris; is        2      So, Dr. Hausermann suggested that your best, but my Intention -
                  that correct?                                    I go (3) consuitwith an attorney to see           (6)      Q. I want to make sure that I
                    s)    A. No.                                   what my options were cy) and that's              understand.
                    E)    Q. Okay. After you were told that you    what I did.                                       (7)      You went to see the lawyer, but you
                   c' ) weren't going to receive this promotion,    (5)      Q. I think that I asked a verysimple   did (e) not care at all about what your legal
                  did you go c5i out and consult with a lawyer      (e) question. And my question was, I didn't     remedies were (9) against Philip Morris?
                  in order to see what (9) your legal remedies     ask you (7) about Dr. Hausermann,                 (10)      A. I didn't say that. What I said
                  would be against Philip Morris?                   (e)      All I asked you was, did you consult   was that I(11) didn't go there with the
                   «o      A. Not for that purpose. The way        with (9 a lawyer because you wanted to find Intent of finding outwhat (12) my legal
                  that I've (ll) testified and the way that it     outwhat your (10) legal remedies were             remedies were.
                  transpired, I asked (iz) Dr. Hausermann          against Philip Morris?                            (13)      I went to the lawyer with the Intent
                  at that point, should I quit.                     (11)      A. And I answered no.                 of (14) finding out getting advice from
                   (i^     Dr. Hausermann says, I can't give        (12)      Q. The answer is no.                   him that my boss (15) wouldn't give me
                  you (1c any -- you're asking me to - I'm          (13)      So, you did not care about any legal   about whether I should quit, about (16)
                  a representative (1.) of the company.             (14 remedies that you had against Philip        whether I should file a complaint along
                  You need to talk to an attorney (16)             Morris?                                          with what my (17) wife did, or whether I
                  about what you should do. So, that's              (151      A. I wanted to get some advice         should just sit tight and (ie) wait and see
                  what I did.                                      about what I(16) should do In that               what happened next to see whether they
                   (i%     I went out and the only attorney        circumstance.                                      (19) were going to fire me the next day
                  that I (ie) knew was the one that was              (i7)     Q. Well, did you actually -- was your or. Whatever, (20) Being concerned
                  representing my wife. (19) Since we both         thought (ie) process at the time that if I go     about the effect that It (zi) would have
                  had been told the same thing, It (20)            out and consult (19) with a lawyer and then I on her complaint because she had filed a
                  seemed like a reasonable thing to use            threaten Philip Morris with (zo) a lawsuit that    czz) compiaintwith the E.E.O.C.
                  him since I(z=; knew no other attorney In         Philip Morris might then back down (21 and (23)            Q. But you didn't have it in the back
                  Richmond.                                         give me the promotion I want; was that your      of your (24) mind that just maybe I'll go see
                   (22)    So, I went and talked with him.           (22) thought process?                           this lawyer, and (25) then I just might write
                  And he (23 advised me to state that he             (23)     A. No.                                 a letter to Philip Morris
                  had been retained by me (za) to                    (25)     Q. Well, did you want the promotion
                  represent him which I did in the letter to        at least (25) bad enough to go consult with a                          Page 199
                   (25) Dr. Hausermann.                             lawyer?                                           (ii threatening a iawsuitto see if they give
                                                                                                                     me a (2) promotion; did that thought enter
                                       Page 195                                           Page 197                   your mind?
                    1     Q. Okay. Go ahead. I don'twantto           (1      A. No.                                   (3)     A. No. And I never wrote a letter to
                  c 2 i interrupt you.                               (2)     Q. Please teli us the name of the       Philip (4) Morris threatening a lawsuit.
                  (3      A. So, actually, going to the             lawyer that (3) you consulted with.               (s)     Q. I'll get to that in a minute. We're
                  attorney was (4) upon as I stated In that          (Q      A. Robert C. Bode.                      going (s) to get to it in a minute.
                  testimony that we were just (s iooking             (s)     Q. And you had one meeting with          (7)     You did eventually write a letter to
                  at, was at the suggestion of Dr.                  him?                                              (e) Dr. Hausermann?
                  Hausermann (5) because he would not                (6)     A. Yes.                                  (9)     A. That does not threaten a
                  give me any advice as to (%) whether I             (>)     Q. And was it just you and this         lawsuit.
                  should quit, whether I should stay, (8)           lawyer?                                           (io)      Q. I'm going to get to that in a
                  whether my future was now going to be              (e)     A. Yes.                                 minute. (il) I'II show it to you.
                  bright, (°^ whether they were come In              (9)     Q. Okay. And did you discuss with        (12)      All I'm saying is, we know that you
                  next week and fire me.                            that (Ic lawyer what legal remedies you           did (il) write a letter and we know what's in
                   (10;     There was no Information given to       might have against ciii Philip Morris?           the letter; is (14) that correct?
                  me about c=- what future prospects.                (.z)     MR. BROWN: You have an                   (15)     A. llh-huh.
                  The only thing that appeared r.z to               attorney-client (13) privilege that you can       (16)      Q. Your thought process when you
                  change, and he told me this, was that the         assert if you want to. It's (14) up to you.      went to see (17) the lawyer in the first place,
                  entire ;13i nature of the company was              (is)     THE WITNESS: I didn't.                  you didn't have any (ie( thought at all that
                  changing. They were (14) changing the               (16)    BY MR. WEBB:                            I'll go and see this lawyer and (xs) then use
                  management.                                         (17)    MR. WEBB: He already told us what      that as some means to write a letterto (20)
                   (=5      Q. Are you talking now about what       the (le) lawyer advised him.                      Philip Morris and see if they will give me the
                   :I= Dr, Hausermann told you?                    (19)    BY MR. WEBB:                              (21) promotion; that thought didn't enter
                   (17)     A. Yes.                                (20)    Q. You wanted to answer the               your mind?
                   1:e      Q. Go ahead and continue.              question?                                          (22)   A. That's correct.
                   ;i9)     A. So, Dr. Ha,usermann had told        (21)    A. I did. I just now said I didn't         (23)   Q. Now, the people present in the
                  me that the ;z^ entire nature of the             ask him (2z) what legal remedies I had. I         meeting (24) with the lawyer, just you and
                  company was changing. And (21) that, in          asked him what Impact (z3 It would                the lawyer; is that (zs ) correct, or was your
                  fact, they wanted to have another person,        have on my wife's legal remedies                  wife there?
                   i2^ Dr. Ken Haughton who was in                 because (24) she had filed an E.E.O.C.
                  Europe, come in and be (23) the                  compiaint.                                                         Page 200
                  vice-president of research and                   (251    Q. So, you did not ask him what           (1    A. No. My wife wasn't there, but I
                  development.                                     your legal                                        don't (2) understand how you could in
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                   esA                            In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation                William Farone, PhD - Voi. 1         10/4100                     XMAX(33133(
                    an at will work state. (3; The whole idea               lawyer (=; did not write a letter on your           (4(    A. Yeah, that's because he's not
                    of writing a letter to get a!<: promotion               behalf to Philip (5) Morris; is that correct?      an officer (:a) of the corporation. He
                    is preposterous. I don't understand the                  (, ^   A. It never occurred to me that he         wasn't on the board. I(11 don't think
                     ^5 question.                                          would. It (8) was my responsibility to tell         that he's not an official representative
                     (6)   Q. Let me follow-up then.                        my boss what was going (9) on. I told               (12) of Philip Morris.
                     ;' )  Are you saying that when you went to            him. I wrote the letter.                            (13)     I mean, I don't think that the - the
                    see (e) the lawyer, you were well aware that            (-o)     Q. Your lawyer did not write any          (14( vice-president of research and
                   you didn't have (') any legal claim against             ietterto (:: Philip Morris?                        dev elopment in the (15) hierarchy as I
                    Philip Morris because cioi Virginia is an               (12(     A. I didn't ask him to and he            und erstood It , is not an em p owered (16)
                    employment at will state; you knew (:i) that           didn't do it.                                      official In Philip Morris. He's only my
                    much; is that correct?                                  (13      Q. Okay. Now, what happened then boss.
                    (^z )   A. No. I didn't know what - what               is that you (14) decided then to write a letter (17)         And so, yes, I asked him to
                   options 1 (13) had. The point was made to              to Philip Morris (is) afteryou metwith the          intervene by (:B( confidential memo with
                   me by the attorney which (14) I'm                      lawyer; is that correct?                            whoeverwould be the official (19)
                   perfectly happy to discuss was that my                   cisl    A. No.                                    representative. I don't know whether that
                   wife was (15( being terminated and she                  (17(     Q. Did you write a letter to Philip      was (20) Mr. Remington or Frank Resnik
                   filed a complaint.                                     Morris?                                             I think had been (21) promoted to
                    (i5)    And It just might be In his opinion            (le)     A. I wrote a memo to Max                  president at that time. I'm not even (22)
                   that I(17) was terminated to make it                   Hausermann my boss.                                sure who Mr. Hausermann reported to on
                   difficult for my wife to (1e) persist In her            n9       Q. We'll call it a memo.                 the day that (23) I sent that memo
                  complaint.                                               (20)     A. I think it was In memo format.        because the changes were coming so
                   (19And that the best course of action                  It's not (21) in - if I recall correctly, it's      (24 fast and furious.
                  for me czo) under advice of attorney was                not In letter (22) format.                          (25)      Q. So, when you wrote the memo
                  to file a complaint (zi with the Equal                   (23)     Q. We'll call it a memo.                 to
                  Opportunity Commission, not a (zz)                       (24)     Did you write a memo to Philip Morris
                  lawsuit, and go In on her complaint and                 (25) after your meeting with your lawyer?                               Page 205
                  say that ;z3i it's very highly likely that                                                                  (1) Mr. Hausermann, you do not believe you
                  what they're trying to (24) do Is use my                                     Page 203                     were - you (2) weren't intending to write a
                  termination to pressure my wife to (zs)                 (1)      A. Philip Morris was dead for a          letter or a memo to a(3) representative of
                  quit.                                                  long time. I12% wrote a memo to Max                 Philip Morris?
                                                                         Hausermann.                                         (4)      MR. BROWN: Same objection. It's
                                        Page 201                          (3(      Q. Did you view Max Hausermann as (5( ambiguous and vague as to what you
                    (1) So that was the -- that was what the             being a(4) representative of Philip Morris?        mean by that (6) phrase. It's a legal phrase.
                    (z) lawyer advised me. No lawsuit. The                (5)      A. In this respect I wasn't quite        It can have a lot of (7) different meanings.
                   lawsuit wasn't (3( part of this deal. It was          sure. It (E) seemed to me that whoever             It's so ambiguous and vague (e( it's
                   filing a complaint with (4) the Equal                 told Mr. Remington to come (7) down                meaningless.
                   Opportunity Employment Commission                     and change things around, that's the (B)            (9       THE WITNESS: I was being polite in
                   saying (s) that they were trying to                   representative of Philip Morris.                      io( advising Max what the result of his, he
                   subvert my wife's rights (e) under the                (9)       Max Hausermann didn't think that I      said, go see (,.i) a lawyer. And I went and
                   E.E.O.C. by terminating me.                           (iol shouldn't be promoted according to saw a lawyer. The lawyer (12) told me
                    M So, I hope that you understand                    Max. So, I'm not nil sure if Max In the            things. I wrote him a memo and explained
                  what the (a( legal implications of that               context that we're talking about (12) Is a          (13) what I heard from the lawyer. So, that's
                  are. It's not a iawsuit.                              representative of Philip Morris.                   it.
                   (5)    Q. I understand. What I'm trying to            (13)       Of course, every employee is a          (14)       BY MR. WEBB:
                  say -1io the lawyer told you that you had              (14) representative, but the objective of          (111)      Q. By the way, you told us that --
                  some type of legal (zi) claim, but it would be        that memo was (1s) to explain to my               just so (io) that I understand, are you
                  with an administrative agency (iz) and not a          boss that I had followed his (16)                  saying that you would not (17) have gone to
                  court against Philip Morris?                          instructions and here was the way that I           see your lawyer except for the fact ;:B( that
                           A. Okay. I can buy that                      saw it. (13) That my option was to file an         Max Hausermann told you to see a lawyer?
                      ^    Q. Is that what you're saying?               E.E.O.C. complaint. (16) That's what I              (15)       A. That's correct.
                   (=4)    A. Yeah.                                    learned when I went to talk to the (19(              (20)       Q. Now, Max Hausermann was
                   (=e^    Q. Okay. Did you ask the lawyer to          lawyer.                                            from Germany?
                  send a         ietterto Philip Morris threatening     (20(       Q. My question was, when you             (21)       A. No, Switzerland.
                  a lawsuit on ne; your behalf?                        wrote the memo (z. to Dr. Hausermann,                (22        Q. I mean, Switzerland; he was a
                   c_5     A. I didn't ask him, no.                    you did not write that memo to (22) him in         Swiss (23) citizen?
                    za     Q. You did not?                             his official capacity as a representative of        (24)       A. Yes.
                  (z_,     A. Not that I recall. I wrote my             (23( Philip Morris?                                (25(       Q. How long had he been in the
                  own letter (22) to Dr. Hausermann                     (24)       MR. BROWN: Objection, ambiguous United States?
                  explaining what I did.                               and vague (25) as to what that means.
                  (z`)     Q. Did you ask your lawyer to send                                                                                    Page 206
                  a letter i24 instead of coming from you?                                    Page 204                     (1)       A. Two and a half years.
                  (25      A. No, I didn't.                             (i)       THE WITNESS: I don't know. I don't       (z)       Q. Did you somehow sense that Mr.
                                                                       know (2) if he is an official representative of    Hausermann (3) was more familiar with the
                                     Page 202                          Philip (3 Morris.                                  legal system than you (4) were in the U.S.?
                        Q. Now, during the meeting did your            (4)        BY MR. WEBB:                             (s        A. Dr. Hausermann was, in
                  lawyer (2) refuse to write the letter?               (5)        Q. In the memo that you wrote to        addition to being (6 my superior, a
                   ^') A. I don't remember It ever coming              him, didn't (6) you ask him to intervene on        friend of mine. And I'm asking him (7)
                  up.                                                 lyour behalf and try to (>) go to your other        his advice because he has been telling
                  (4)  Q. Okay. Well, we know factually the           Isuperiors and talk the situation (e( over?         me that I'm (6) going to take his place;
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                  BSq                               In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation            William Farone, PhD - Vol. I       10/4/00                        XMAX(]dl]4)

                     right. And now all of a 19- sudden I'm not. trying (1z) to act in the best professional i (-%%                 A. So far.
                     (-C%     And the first question Is, Max,            manner that I can. (-3) So, that's why I           (le)    Q. And it's to M. Hausermann; is
                    should I(=.- resign. I can't tell you. You          wrote it.                                          that (-^) correct?
                    need to do this (=z) first. So, I was                 ua)    Q. So, when you wrote this memo            (10)    A. Yeah. You skipped a line.
                    essentially complying with his (i3)                 to (15) Dr. Hausermann, you didn't have any (z.)            Q. I'm sorry. It says personal and
                    wishes, understanding full well that It              expectation that (ie) he would take your           (22) confidential?
                    might lead (14) to my termination. I didn't memo and go meet with senior (17)                           (23)    A. Right And that's Important
                    expect to stay at (14^ Philip Morris.                management to discuss your situation?             because it (za) was personal and
                     (la)     Q. All I'm trying to find outis, so did    (1e)    A. I didn't think that would              confidential, not directed to (25) Phllip
                    you (11,) write the memo to Dr. Hausermann happen until (19) after he got back from                    Morris. Go ahead.
                    simply because you (le) were kind of                his vacation and we had an (20)
                    completing the loop, if you will, he 1191 told      opportunity to discuss It.                                              Page 211
                   you to go see a lawyer and you thought as             (21)    Q. Because in the memo you wrote           (1)    Q. And it says, to M. Hausermann; is
                   just (zo) as a courtesy you should get back          him, you (22) actually ask him --                 that (z) correct?
                   to him; is that (21) why you wrote the                (23)    A. That's right.                           (3)   A. Correct
                   memo?                                                 (24)    Q. --to go meetwith senior                (4)     Q. And he's your boss and superior;
                    (22)     A. Not as a courtesy. I felt that          management and (zs) to discuss your               is that (5) correct?
                   that was (23) the only option that I had.            situation; is that correct?                        (6)    A. That's correct
                   How else could I make (24) my case that                                                                 (7)    Q. At Philip Morris, he's your boss
                   I wanted to either quit and get out of (zs)                               Page 209                     and ( e) superior at Philip Morris; is that
                   there or get the Issue resolved than to               (1)   A. That's correct, but he couldn't         correct?
                   write to my                                          possibly (2) in my opinion because he              (9)    A. That's correct
                                                                       was going out the door to (3) Canada, he (so)                Q. And it says that it's veryfrom
                                        Page 207                       couldn't do it until he came back. So, (a)         W.A. (11) Farone; is that you?
                    8. boss. What should I have done. Write we never had a chance to discuss that                          (12)     A. That's me.
                   to the (2) chairman of the board.                    memo.                                              (13)     Q. And is your signature there on
                    (3)    Q. Let me ask you this.                      (s)    MR. WEBB: I'll ask the court reporter      the bottom?
                   (4)     If all you were do trying to do was just    to (6) mark this with -- is there any exhibit       (14)     A. That's correct.
                   (s) kind of close the loop with a friend, (6)       number series (7) here. Mark this as                (15)     Q. This is a copy of the memo that
                   Dr. Hausermann, you wouldn't have to write          Defendants' Exhibit 1 for this ce) deposition. you sent (ie) to Dr. Hausermann on or
                  him a (7) formal memo; would you?                     ( 9)   Do you have a stamp? I'll mark it.         about June 26, 1984; is that (17) correct?
                   (a)     A. In this case you would because            (io)                                               (:e)     A. Yes, It is.
                  he was (9) leaving on vacation either the             ui)     (The document referred to was              (19)     Q. Now, as far as whether you
                  day, either the exact (ro) day that that             marked by (12) the C.S.R. as Defendants'          went to see (20) your lawyer in order to find
                  memo was issued or the day thereafter.               Exhibit I for (13) identification and attached     out what legal remedies (21) you might
                   (11)      I handed It to him on the way out         to and made a(i4) part of this deposition.)       have against Philip Morris, what you tell
                  the door 112) fora one-week vacation or               (is)                                               (zz) Dr. Hausermann in the first sentence.
                  a two-week vacation In (13) Canada.                                                                     (23)     And I'll now read it into the record, it
                                                                        (16)    MR. BROWN: Would you read into
                   (14)      Q. Did you actually write this memo                                                          (24) says, this isto advice you that on June
                                                                       the record I17l what it is, the date.
                 to (1s) Dr. Hausermann because you                                                                      25, 1984, 1(25) retained an attorney for the
                                                                        (ie)    MR. WEBB: I will. And I'll give you a
                 wanted to threaten, just ne) bear with me,             (19) copy of it.                                 purpose of taking
                 you wanted to threaten not only (i7) Dr.
                                                                        (20)    BY MR. WEBB:
                  Hausermann, but Philip Morris with legal                                                                                     Page 212
                                                                        (21)    Q. I'm going to hand you what I
                  action (ie) hoping that Dr. Hausermann                                                                  ci) whatever legal actions are necessary to
                                                                       have marked (22) as Defendants' Exhibit 1
                 would then go to other n9 higher ups at                                                                 protect my (2) career from what I perceive
                                                                      for the purposes of this (23) deposition
                  Philip Morris and they would change (zo)                                                               as discriminatory (3) treatment.
                                                                      which at least on it face appears to be a
                 their mind about the promotion?                                                                          (4)     Is that the first sentence?
                                                                       (24) memo dated June 26, 1984, to M.
                  (z=)      A. No.                                                                                        (5)    A. That's the first sentence.
                                                                       Hausermann from (25) W.A. Farone.
                    22)     Q. But that's what you said in the                                                            f6)     Q. And is that a truthful statement?
                 memo; is (23; that correct?                                                Page 210                      (-)    A. I don't think that you
                  (z 1)     A. I don't think that it says to           (1) And I'II hand it to you at this time so (zi   understand It, but, (6) yes, it's a truthful
                 change their (---) mind. What I wanted to                                                               statement.
                                                                      that you have an opportunity to look at it, (3)
                 do was resolve my                                                                                        (9)     Q. You don't think that I understand
                                                                      Dr. Farone. And let me give Mr. Brown a
                                                                      copy of it.                                        it?
                                       Page 208                                                                           (10)     A. That's correct.
                                                                       ( 4)    And first of all, why don't I give you a
                  (1) methodology for termination.                     (s) chance to look at it.                          1i-i     Q. Is there something about it that
                  (2)     In other words, I figured that they                                                            you find (12) confusing?
                                                                       (6)     A. I'm veryfamillarwith It.
                 wanted c3) me to leave. Okay. And I was                                                                  (13)     A. No. That I think you find
                                                                       (7)     Q. You're familiar with this memo; is
                 leery of leaving in (4) such a way that                                                                 confusing. (14) That on June 25th I
                                                                      that ca> correct, sir?
                 would cause my wife tojeopardize -- (5)               (9)                                               retained the attorney for the (15)
                                                                               A. I am.
                 if she didn't have me there and I didn't              (10)                                              purpose of taking legal action.
                                                                                Q. And I had asked you a little bit
                 have a job (5) and I had to go take a job                                                                (16)     When I went to see the attorney, I
                                                                      ago about (11) whether you had retained an
                 in Chicago, what impact (7) thatwouid                                                                   had no (=1) idea, no concept of retaining
                                                                      attorney to determine (iz) what your legal
                 have on her E.E.O.C. complaint.                                                                         the attorney. It was (ie) only when the
                  (e)                                                 rights would be. And so let's read (13) the
                          So, what I'm trying to do Is to                                                                attorney told me that the best legal (ly)
                                                                      first paragraph of this memo. I'll read it into
                 resolve 19 this In an amicable manner.                                                                  action that I could take was to file a
                                                                       (14) the record.
                 I'm trying to do it In (-o) a professional            (a)                                              ,compiaint (20) along with my wife
                                                                                The memo is dated June 26, 1984; is
                 and friendly manner. I like Max. I (I ..) like                                                          because he felt that the major 121)
                                                                      that 1i6) correct?
                 the people working for me. And I'm just                                                                 reason for my problem was my wife's
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                  BSA                            In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation         William Farone, PhD - Vol. 1       10/4100                     XMaX(35135)
                   complaint. And czz so that's what this is          memo to Philip Morris c2zi telling Philip         Morris; don't you?
                   all about.                                         Morris that you retained an attorney (z3 ) for     (11)   A. I da.
                   123;   In other words, on June 25th I              the purpose of taking whatever legal actions     I,zz)    Q. All right. Let's read the next
                   retained an (2a ) attorney for the purpose         are (as) necessary to protect my career; is       sentence, l23) as we know our senior
                   of taking whatever legal (25) actions.             that correct?                                     management buys millions of (24) dollars of
                   That does not say that this Is to advise            c25±   A. That's correct.                        equipment and tobacco on a handshake
                                                                                                                         (zs) basis. And thus I saw no reason to
                                         Page 213                                           Page 215                    doubt the
                    c'-) you that I went to see an attorney to        ( 1)    Q. And r,ow you told me a minute
                   take whatever cz legal action.                     ago, as I (2) understand it, that you                               Page 217
                    (3)    1 didn't go to the attorney with that      understood when you went to (3) see the         (i) authority of the commitments made to
                   in ls) mind. I went to get advice. He gave         lawyer that you understood that because the me and see no (2) reasonwhythese
                   me the advice. (5) He said that the best            (4) State of Virginia was an atwiil            commitments have not been (3) continued
                   way to resolve your Issue was (6) to file          employment state, (s) that you would have
                   an E.E.O.C. compiaint.                             no action against Philip Morris (e) just for    (4)     A. Keep reading.
                    (7)    Q. Do you think that most people go        terminating you?                                (5)     Q. -- other than my wife's problems
                   see an (e) attorney in order to get legal           (7)    MR. BROWN: Objection, asked and         with her (6) management.
                   advice?                                            answered (e) for about the sixth time.           (7)    A. Right.
                    (9)    A. I presume that's why they go             (9)    THE WITNESS: If the termination          (a)    Q. AII I'm saying is that you're
                   see an (10) attorney.                              wasn't (io) related to discriminatory           emphasizing (9) here that the commitment
                            Q. But you didn't?                        treatment which it (ii) appeared that it was is being broken; is that (10) correct?
                    c.^)    A. No, I don't -                          to him and to me at the time, (12) that would (11)       A. No. I'm emphasizing the fact
                    1131    MR. BROWN: Objection,                     be true.                                        that the (12) only reason that I can see
                   argumentative, 1'.4) endlessly repetitive and       (i 3)    BY MR. WEBB:                          for the termination Is (13) not my
                   asked and answered. And (15) incidently for         (:<)     Q. But you go on in here, not to talk problem, but my wife's problem with her
                   the record this is probably the 25th (16) time     about (is) discriminatory treatment, don't       (14) management.
                   that you or your associates have gone              you go on to talk (16) about promises made       (a)     Up until that point I had never
                   through (17) the same routine in depositions       to you by Philip Morris?                        heard a u6) discouraging word. All of a
                   endlessly over and (ie) over and over and           (17)     A. That's after I say, for what I     sudden I'm called In (17) and they say,
                   over again.                                         perceive is (18) discriminatory treatment. no more promotion.
                    (119)   And I just throw out the idea that if     That's the lynch pin of (19) the entire          (ie)    So, the conclusion that I came to
                   this (20) is what were going to see in this         memo deals with discriminatory                 was that (19) it was my wife's E.E.O.C.
                   deposition, there (21) will come a time when       treatment.                                      complaint that lead to the (zo)
                   we end the deposition and I'll (22) go back         c20!     Q. Well, let's see what you say       termination.
                   to the court, I'll give them 20 copies of (23)     here.                                            (21)    Q. Right. So, if I understand what
                   depositions in which you've done the same           c21      After the first sentence the next     you've (22) told me now is that your lawyer
                   thing over (24) and over again and ask for a       sentence (zz) says, see if I read this          told you that they c23 can't terminate you
                   protective order.                                   correctly, Doctor, I (23) believe that         because of something that your (za) wife
                    (zs)    I'm not going to interfere with your       promises made to me by senior (24)             did, that would be discriminatory; is that
                   just                                                management were not kept.                       (zs) correct?
                                                                       (25)     And the maior reason forthis was my
                                      Page 214                                                                                             Page 218
                   (1) asking these questions in a reasonable                               Page 216                   1i)    A. Yeah. My lawyer told me that
                   way and lz getting on, but we've been here          (l) wife's complaint against the company; is the (2) termination because of my wife's
                   practically all (3) afternoon and you haven't      that (z) correct?                               compiaintwas c3) discriminatory.
                   done anything that is the c 4) slightest bit new    c3i    A. That's correct. That's a              (a )   Q. Fine.
                   or different than what you and (5) your             definition of (4) what I say above that,        (s)    A. And I saw -- no other reason
                   associates have been doing for two or three         protect my career from what I (s)              was given to (e) me.
                   (E) years. So, you know, get to something           perceive as discriminatory treatment            (7)    Q. Right, but you also knew that if
                   new, please.                                       1 because if I'm cE) being fired because my Philip (e) Morris didn't terminate you, but
                    (7)   BY MR. WEBB:                                 wife filed a complaint, as (7) this lawyer     just didn't give (9) you the promotion, the
                   le)    Q. Can you answer the question.              explained to me, maybe he's wrong, but         fact that they promised you (10) the
                   Doctor?                                             (a) he explained to me that's                  promotion did not give you any legal action?
                    (^)   A. Yes, I can. I wouid never go to           discriminatory treatment.                       (ii)    MR. BROWN: Are you asking him
                   an c:e) attorney to seek legal advice.              (y)    Q. So, what the lawyer explained to     what he was (12) consciously aware of at
                    (11)    Q. Okay.                                   you, if I ('-o) understand what you're saying  the time?
                    (12)    A. They'rewrong 50 percent of              is that, if you were (1i) being terminated      (13)    BY MR. WEBB:
                   the time. So, (13) I have to appeal to a            because of something that your wife (12)         (14)   Q. Whatyou thought?
                   higher standard than that.                          did or because of something that happened        (15)   A. I'm not sure that that's the
                    ;14)    My standard is that if you behave          with your (.3) wife that would be              case, but --
                    c=`) ethically, you don't need to seek an          discriminatory?                                  (1s)   Q. Is that what you thought?
                   attorney to get (16) advice. The reason              (14)    A. That's correct.                      (17)   A. No.
                   that you go to an attorney Is (17) either to         (15)    Q. Having nothing to do with            (1a)   Q. That's what you just told me.
                   defend yourself in a lawsuit that has been          whether Philip (1E) Morris made any              (i 9)  MR. BROWN: No. That's notwhat
                    (ie) filed against you or to file a lawsuit        commitment to you?                              he just (20) told you. That misstates what
                   against (1G) somebody else. You don't                (17)    A. Correct.                            he just said.
                   go to them for advice.                               !:e?    Q. But you go on and spend the          (21)   THE WITNESS: No, no, no. I didn't
                    (2 0)   Q. And while you didn't go to him for      whole memo (=.) talking about the               know (22) enough about Virginia law. And I
                   any (21) legal advice, you then write a             commitment made to you by Philip (20)           didn't ask the (23) question.
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                 asA                            In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation         William Farone, PhD - Vol. I        10/4/00                     XMAx(76136)
                          In California, for example, being the                        Page 221                        (1) this. That's what this memo says.
                       president and C.E.O. of a company,            (1) But Max and I got over that. And 1(2)         (2)   Q. We're going to go on, but I want
                  verbal contracts                                  understood why and how, so, you know, I          to make (3) sure that I understand what
                                                                    mean. I(3) wouldn't have done it that            you're saying then we'll (a) read the next
                                      Page 219                                                                        paragraph.
                                                                    way. I would have just (Q) called me In
                    (1 have force of law. So, I don't know. We      and say, look, you've got this problem             (5)   A. Sure.
                  didn't get (2, into that issue.                    (5) and we don't want you to work here            (6)   Q. Do I now understand what you're
                   (3)    So, there might have been a legal                                                           saying is (7) that when you wrote this
                                                                    anymore. And (6) here's your severance
                  contract (4) between the company and me           and away you go.                                  memo, you actually, all you (e) wanted was
                  because of what he told (5) me. I'm not            (7)   I've terminated many, many                to terminate your employment at Philip (9)
                  sure.                                             employees in my (e) time. And generally           Morris and receive a severance package; is
                   (e)    BY MR. WEBB:                              speaking when I terminate them, (9) I do         that (lo) correct?
                   (7)    Q. At least a moment ago 'rf I                                                              (11)     A. That was one of the options,
                                                                    not call their bosses back from vacation. I
                  understand what (e) you're telling me is that     do (10) not have them walk into an office        unless he had (12) another Idea like I
                  your lawyer told you that (9) you couldn't be    and get hit with (11) something and then           become a consuitantor something (13)
                  terminated because of something that (io)         be asked to be escorted off the (12)             else, but, yeah, that was one of the
                  your wife did or that would be discriminatory;    premises. I mean, that seems a little            things.
                  is (1l) that correct?                            severe, a (13) little unprofessional.              (14)     But I didn't have a chance to find
                   (12)    A. That's correct.                       (14)    So, I was a little upset, you know,      out (15) because this was written to him
                  (:3)     Q. Is that correct?                      (15) shocked that they would act in such         while he was (16) leaving. And I wanted
                  (14)     A. That's correct.                      a manner, but, (le) you know, I got over          to talk to him about it when (17) he
                  (15)     Q. Only my question, sir, is that       It.                                               comes back from his vacation.
                 there had (16) never been an issue of your         (li)    Q. We'll get to that in a minute.         (1e)    Q. Because we know that in this
                 termination up to this (17) point, that comes      (ie)    A. Okay.                                 memo you (19) don't ever say anything in
                 later; is that correct?                            (19)    Q. We'II stick with the date of June     this memo, Max, all I(20) want is to be
                  (1 e)    MR. BROWN: There had never been         26, (20) 1984, when you wrote the memo.           terminated and try to work out a(2:)
                 an issue?                                         The next sentence (21) again emphasizes           severance package; you don't say that in
                  (19)     BY MR. WEBB:                            the promises made to you. And I'll (22) read      this memo (22) at all; do you?
                  (20)     Q, Yes. Up to this point on June 26,                                                       (23)    A. No. I say, your determination
                                                                   it.
                 1984, (21) no one at Philip Morris had             (23)    Since the promises were witnessed        with senior (24) management on our
                 threatened to terminate (22) you?                 by and (24) stated in front of me, and stated     ability to negotiate a mutually (25)
                  (23)    A. Now, wait a minute. We're             in front of my (25) peers, and greatly            satisfying solution which could Include
                 talking about (24) discriminatory                 affected my career, the future                    termination.
                 treatment. The treatment We're (25)
                 talking about is not getting promoted.                               Page 222                                         Page 224
                                                                  (1) needs to be clarified.                      (1) It's not limited.
                                    Page 220                     (2)                                              (2)    Q. Read it off, the second paragraph
                                                                        Do you see that?
                   (1)   Q. Well, all right, because we know                                                     says, (3) first of all, I have instructed my
                                                                  (3)   A. I see that.
                 that as (2) of June 26, 1984, there was no      (4)    Q. So, you clearly when you say that attorney to file (4) a complaint.
                  issue about you being (3) terminated; is that you want (5) the future clarified, you were       (5)    Do you see that?
                 correct?                                       hoping that by (e) writing this memo that         (6)    A. You can't even -- no. You're
                  (5     A. We don't know that, I tried to       Philip Morris might do (7) something           ireading it (7) wrong.
                 elicit cs) that response and he would not      regarding this promotion; is that correct?        (B)    Q. If I misread it I apologize. I have
                  respond to It.                                 (8)    A. No.                                    (9) instructed my attorney to prepare to file
                  (e)    Q. Philip Morris did not say anything                                                   a (10) complaint,
                                                                 (9)    MR. BROWN: Asked and answered
                 to you i-,; about being terminated as of June and (io) argumentative.                            (ii)    A. It's a very Important
                 26, 1984; had (e) they?                         (11)    THE WITNESS: No, if you read the        distinction.
                         A. Philip Morris, if you call Max      next (12) paragraph --                            (12)     Q. I'll read it again. I didn't intend to
                 Hausermann, (-E) Philip Morris had not          (13)    BY MR. WEBB:                             (13) misread the statement.
                 responded to my direct e11) question.           (14)    Q. Well, I'm going to. So, bear with     (14:     I have instructed my attorney to
                 Does this mean that I should quit or that      me.                                              prepare (15) to file a complaint; is that what
                  (-=' I'm going to be terminated.               (is)    A. No. The answer to that is            it says?
                  (13)    And they responded with the           absolutely not. (ls) I'm not looking to get (16)          A. But not to fife.
                 answer, go ('-5) consuitwith an attorney. promoted. I'm looking to get (17)                      (17)     Q. But notto file it?
                 I'm not going to tell you (15) that. So, I     severance pay so that I can continue with         (18)    A. Right
                 have no way as of the discussion that          my career. (1e) And I want to do it on an         (19)    Q. Pending your return from
                  (16) occurred on, I don't know, June 24th amicable basis.                                      vacation and your (20) advice on how to
                 or whenever the (1? ) meeting was, my           (19)    And I'm going to wait for Max to        proceed, i.e., your determination (2:) with
                 expectation was that I was going to (1e)       come back (ao) from his vacation to              senior management on our ability to
                 be terminated. That was my expectation. discuss his advice on how to (21)                       negotiate a (22) mutually satisfactory
                  (19)    Q. And so if that was your            proceed. And I state that we're not going        solution.
                 expectation on (2o) June 26, 1984, when                                                          (23)    Do you see that?
                                                                to file (22) the compiaint. I just told the
                 you actuallywere terminated, (2.) you were attorney, look, (23) don't write a letter.            (24)    A. I see that.
                 not surprised?                                                                                   (25)    Q. So, all I want to do is break it
                                                                I'm going to talk to Max.
                  (22)    A. I was not surprised that I was      (24)    Prepare the complaint, but please down to
                 terminated. ;23 ) I was surprised by the       don't (25) file It until I get a chance to talk
                 rude and what I considered to c2:i be                                                                                 Page 225
                                                                to Max about
                 unprofessional manner In which the                                                              (i) make sure what you're saying to Mr.
                 termination (^-5) was carried out.                                 Page 223                     Hausermann.
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                   SSA                                 In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation         William Farone, PhD - Voi. 1      10/4/00                       xMU,x(37137)
                     (2        You clearly want Mr. Hausermann to      statement?                                         (7)     But if I leave under mutually
                    take (3) action upon receiving this memo; is        (e)     Had you instructed your attorney to      satisfactory (8; conditions, then
                    that correct?                                       (o) prepare to file a complaint?                 everybody is happy and my wife, i9
                      <        A. No. I think that it says that what    r.o;     A. Correct, with the E.E,O.C.           might be able to convince her to drop her
                    I want 4^ him to do is to discuss It. Let's         (ii      Q. And had your attorney actually       compiaint, (1o) maybe, if it's mutually
                    see, but notto (6 file It pending your             prepared a (12complaint to file with the          satisfactory.
                    return from vacation and your (7) advice           E.E.O.C.?                                          (11)     So, what I'm doing here is saying,
                    on how to proceed.                                  (13      MR. BROWN: During that time?            look, (12) it's up and let's see If we can
                     (A)       I'm asking Dr. Hausermann for his        (14)     BY MR. WEBB:                            work it out because (13) i understand
                    advice ,^% on how to proceed. That's                (is      Q. During this time period. June 26, that you don't have any need for me
                    what I'm doing.                                    19$4?                                              (1a) anymore.
                     ne          Q. Dr. Farone, with all due respect    (16)     A. I don't know. I talked to him         (15)      Q. If, Dr. Farone, with all due
                    you tell c1.      him, i.e., your determination    the day (17) before. So, I don't think that       respect, if (i®) all you wanted was Philip
                    with senior management (12) on our ability         he had time to. (1B) I've instructed him to Morris just to - you to (17) resign and Philip
                    to negotiate a mutually satisfactory (13)          prepare to file. I don't (i9) think that he       Morris to give you a severance cie
                    solution; is that correct?                         actually had It prepared by June 26.              package, you wouldn't have to tell Philip
                     c14i        A. That's correct                      (20)     Q, Did he at anytime actually           Morris (19) that you retained an attorney
                     cis)        Q. You clearly are saying to Mr.      prepare a (21) complaint to file with the         and that you actually (zo) instructed the
                    Hausermann, (16) I want you to go talk to          E.E.O.C. or anyone else?                          attorney to prepare a legal action; (21)
                    senior management above you c17i and                t22)     A. I don't know.                        would you?
                    make a determination about some                     (23)     Q. Did you ever see a complaint?         (22)      MR. BROWN: Objection,
                    satisfactory (ie solution?                          (24A. I may have. I don't recall. I              argumentative.
                     (19)       A. Correct                             think the (25, complaint -- I think a              (23)     THE WITNESS: You're missing an
                     czo         Q. So, you clearly envisioned eza     compiaintwas fifed.                               important (24) point. No. You're absolutely
                    Dr. Hausermann --                                                                                    right. If all 1 i25i wanted to do was to resign
                     (22)       THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The tape is                               Page 228                     and leave, all I had to
                    up. 23)                                             (i)     Q. And do you have a copy of it --
                                                                        (z)     A. No.                                                          Page 230
                     c24a       (Recess taken.) c25i
                                                                        (3)     Q. -- in your records somewhere?          c i do was say that I resign.
                                                                        ^4      A. No,Idon't.                             (2)     But if my purpose was to resolve my
                                           Page 226
                                                                        csi     Q. Now, I apologize for my cold. I will wife's (3) complaint at the same time that I
                      i       THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back                                                               resolved mine c4 because I believed they
                                                                       not ce cough in your ear.
                    on the (2) record at 4:13. This is the                                                               were linked together, then 15i that doesn't
                                                                        (7)     Am I correct, Dr. Farone, that the
                    beginning of tape (3) numberthree,
                                                                       reason (e) that you wanted Dr. Hausermann work. That doesn't work at all.
                     (4)      BY MR. WEBB:                                                                                        I have to do something that resolves
                                                                       to actually go talk (9) to your superiors is       (e
                     (5)      Q. Dr. Farone, do you still have in
                                                                       that you were hoping that when (io) Philip        both (7) my wife's complaint and my
                    front of (6 you Defendants' Exhibit 1 which                                                          complaint in an amicable ce fashion. That's
                                                                       Morris found out that you actually had gone
                    is the memo that you 7) wrote to Dr.
                                                                        (I .i) out and retained an attorney as you say the intent. So, by simply (9) resigning
                    Hausermann on June 26, 1984?
                                                                       for the (12) purpose of taking whatever legal doesn't do a thing for my wife's (10)
                     (e)      A. I do.
                                                                       action is necessary (13) to protect my            compiaint.
                     (9)      Q. And I think at the time that we                                                                    BY MR. WEBB:
                                                                       career.                                            (11)
                    took our (10recess, I was talking to you                                                              (12)      Q. If that's what you wanted, why
                                                                        (14)     And when you say in this memo that
                    about the second ciii paragraph where you                                                            didn't you (:5) just say that in this letter
                                                                       you've (15) instructed that attorney to
                    tell Dr. Hausermann that you (12) want him                                                           instead of saying that (14you've hired an
                                                                       prepare to file a legal (16) action, a
                    to make a determination with senior e13i                                                             attorney and you're getting ready to (i-) file
                                                                       complaint, that you were hoping that by (17)
                    management on our ability to negotiate a                                                             a legal action; why don't you just tell them
                                                                       threatening Philip Morris with this type of
                    mutually (14) satisfactory solution.                                                                  (16) that you want to sit down and work out
                                                                       legal (_e) action that Philip Morris might
                     ca         And I think my question was, by
                                                                       change its mind and (19) give you your            an c17i arrangement where you resign?
                    putting (16) that language in there, you                                                              uei       MR. BROWN: Objection,
                                                                       promotion; is that fair to say?
                    obviously envisioned and (17) intended for                                                           argumentative.
                                                                        (20)     A. No.
                    Dr. Hausermann to take your memo and                                                                  (i9       THE WITNESS: I think that I've
                                                                        (21)     Q. Thatthought didn't enter your
                     c 'ie i talk to higher ups in Philip Morris about
                                                                       mind?                                             testified c20, several times that that was the
                    it is nv that correct?
                      20i        MR. BROWN: Object, compound,
                                                                        c22      A. If that entered your mind, your suggestion that 1 c21i tried to discuss with
                                                                       mind had (23) to be about an I.Q. 25.             Dr. Hausermann. And (xz) Dr. Hausermann
                    take this -,. memo and talk.                                                                         suggested that I go get an attorney. (23) So
                                                                       Once you write a memo of (24) this type
                      22THE WITNESS: After returning from                                                                it's like a catch-22.
                                                                       what you're doing Is saying, look, I want
                    his ;23) vacation, that's correct. And after                                                          (24)      So, I got the impression that the only
                                                                        c25i to get out of here. I want to do It in
                    we talked about On it.                                                                               way (25) to bring the situation to a head was
                                                                       such a way
                      25BY MR. WEBB:
                                                                                                                         to talk to the
                                                                                             Page 229
                                           Page 227                                                                                             Page 231
                     r.i       Q. But at some point you clearly         (1) that we leave on mutually satisfactory
                                                                       conditions.                                        (I) attorney. And when I talked to the
                    envisioned (2 Dr. Hausermann interacting                                                             attorney he said c2 the only way to bring it
                                                                        cz      I don't see, If I'm going to be
                    with higher ups at (s Philip Morris to discuss                                                       to a head is to file a(3 complaint with the
                                                                       terminated (3 as he implied, then that
                    the content of your memo?
                                                                       puts my career in jeopardy. (c) If I'm            E.E.O.C.
                      a        A. That is correct
                                                                       going to be retained in some kind of               (4)     So, I go back to Max and I am saying,
                      '        Q. And the paragraph says that, I                                                          isi look, Max, I don't like what's happening.
                                                                       position ;4) that we don't know about,
                    have (e: instructed my attorney to prepare                                                           We're (e) preparing to do this. When you
                                                                       that puts my career in (6) Jeopardy and
                    to file a(7) complaint and - is that a truthful                                                      get back from your (7) vacation, let's talk
                                                                       people that are working for me.
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                 BSA                            In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation              William Farone, PhD - Vol. I     10/4/00                       XMAX(3B/3B)

                   about it. And you're obviously (e; going to                   Q. Now, and you did not want Philip marked as Defendants' Exhibit 1, but ;:
                  have to go to senior management to discuss           Morris to (-2^ reconsider and give you the      what got Philip Morris upset was you talking •
                    (5 it. Let's see how we are going to do it.        promotion at all?                               to (:3) other employees at Philip Morris and
                      0)    BY MR. WEBB:                                (13)     A. That's correct.                    telling them (14) that you were going to file
                   (=1)     Q. Is there anything --just looking at      (14)     Q. If all you wanted was Philip        a legal action?
                  this (:2 memo you told us that you're                Morris to (:5) fire you, did you have to go to    (15)    MR. BROWN: That assumes that's
                  actually saying that it (=3) was Dr.                 the length of (16) consulting with a lawyer     what got (16) Philip Morris upset, which is
                  Hausermann's idea that you go see a lawyer;          and writing this memo?                           really a suggestion. (17) There is no
                   (14^ is that correct?                                (=7)     A. I've been there. We've been         evidence to support that.
                   (15)     A. That's correct.                         around this (1B) loop a hundred times. I          (ae)    THE WITNESS: I was never told by
                   f:5)     Q. But is there anything in this letter    had to do it because of my (i5) wife's            (19) Mr. Case, Dr. Hausermann, or any
                  that (17 ) indicates that?                           complaint. I was not going to leave, quit        other person in (20) authority at Philip
                   (1e)     MR. BROWN: Argumentative.                   (20) and leave Richmond, Virginia, and          Morris that that was the reason (21) for
                   (i5)     MR. WEBB: Strike the question.             leave my wife in (21) Richmond, Virginia. them being upset.
                     20)    BY MR. WEBB:                               She has to get unentangled from (22) her (22)             BY MR. WEBB:
                   (21)     Q. The first sentence of the letter        E.E.O.C. compiaint. It's got to be a             (23)     Q. Philip Morris nevertold you that?
                  says, (22) this is to advise you that I retained     package (23) deal. That's what this Is           (24)    A. Barry Case may have
                  an attorney.                                        about.                                            mentioned It If you (25) have his letter at
                  (23)     MR. BROWN: Is there a question?              (24)    We both had good friends there.        that point. But up until the
                  (24)     BY MR. WEBB:                               And we (25) wanted to do it In a mutual
                  (25)     Q. Is that correct?                        way. But we had been                                                  Page 236
                                                                                                                        (1) point that he read this thing to me
                                       Page 232                                              Page 234                  without giving (2) me a copy in 1984.
                   (=)    A. That's what it says.                      (1) threatened by Philip Morris with legal       (3)    Now, remember, I've been called
                   (2)    Q. There's nothing in here that says        action with (2) anything detrimental to          Into an (4) office out of the biind and I sit
                  that you (3) told me to go get an attorney          the company.                                     down and my boss (5) has been brought
                  and I've done exactiy (4) what you told me           (3)    I expected the worst, but I thought      back from vacation and read (6)
                  to do?                                              with (4) Max's help we could figure out a        something. And they did not have the
                   csi    MR. BROWN: Argumentative.                   way to arrive at a(5) mutually                   courtesy to (7) give me a copy.
                   (6)    BY MR. WEBB:                                satisfactory solution.                            (e)    So, my recollection of that
                   (7)    Q. It does not saythat?                      (6)    Q. Did you, at the time of your          transaction (9) was -- I was dumfounded
                   (B)    A. It does not say that.                    termination, (7) did you become aware that       they did It that way. And 1(10) have that
                    5)    Q. Sir, at the time that you wrote this what really upset Philip (6) Morris was not          letter somewhere. It's one of the (11)
                  memo (:o) to Philip Morris -- strike the            you writing the memo that !a marked (9) as       exhibits. But I don't recall that as being a
                  question.                                           Defendants' Exhibit 1, but it was because        major (12) Issue of my, of them being
                  (a)      At the time that you wrote the memo        you (10) also started talking to other           concerned about other (13) people that
                 to (12) Dr. Hausermann who was your boss             employees at Philip (11) Morris and telling      had heard me talk about filing (la)
                  at Philip Morris, u3) you were very much           them that you were going to file (12) a legal compiaints.
                  aware that if Philip Morris (14) believed that      complaint against Philip Morris; is that (13)     (is)    Q. Well, let me ask you this. Let
                 you were unfairiythreatening the (is)                correct?                                         me break (16) it down. First of all, factually,
                 company with a iawsuitthat had no legal               (14)     A. That's not correct.                 let's find out (17) what happened.
                 merit, that (16) Philip Morris might terminate (15)            MR. WEBB: Okay.                         (le)    Am I correct, you actually did --
                 you; is that correct?                                (16)      MR. BROWN: That question was so        strike (i9) the question.
                  (i%)     MR. BROWN: Objection on several            ambiguous (17) just that the answer is           (20)     After you wrote the memo on June
                 grounds, (le) but it's argumentative. You've        hopelesslyvague. I don't (ie) know what           26, 1984, (21) that is marked as
                 asked this kind of (15) question over and           you asked.                                        Defendants' Exhibit 1 --
                 over again. And it asks him to (2o) assume           (15)      If you read back your question, there  (22)     A. Right.
                 a whole bunch of assumptions that there is           are (20; two possible questions that you're      (25)     Q. -- after you wrote it or during the
                 no .: evidence that are reasonable or               asking. God (21) knows which one that he          same (241 time period that you wrote it, you
                 proper.                                             answered. It's your record. (22) You can do       did have some (25) conversations with
                  (2Z)     I suppose there are others, but I'll let  anything you want.                                other people at Philip Morris in
                  (2 3) it go at that.                                (23)      MR. WEBB: In case there is some
                  (24)     THE WITNESS: Itwas my                     confusion (24) and if the question was unfair                          Page 237
                 understanding as (25) told to me by Mr.                                                               (1) which you told them that you thought
                 Fred Newman, Assistant General                       (25)      MR. BROWN: It's notunfair. Itjust     that you might (2) be terminated and that
                                                                                                                      you were possibly going to (3) have to file
                                       Page 233                                             Page 235                   an E.E.O.C. complaint against the (4)
                  (1) Counsel for Philip Morris, that they would (:) leaves you with no information. In other         company; is that correct?
                 sue ;2) people with all their might even if         words, (2; were you asking did he talk to         (5)     A. That's correct.
                 they had a(^) legitimate complaint against          others or did you (3) understand that was         (6)     Q. And I take it that you recognize
                 the company.                                        Philip Morris' understanding.                    that when (7) you start running around the
                  (4)    That's the way that they threatened          (4)     BY MR. WEBB:                            companytelling (e) co-empioyeesthose
                 and (5) intimidated their employees. So, I           (5)    Q. That was not my question at all,      type of things, that you run the (9) risk that
                 fully expected (6; them to sue me whether           but I( 6) will ask it again. I think that you    your employer may believe that you're (10)
                 this letter existed or not.                         understood it, (7) but I will ask it again and   being insubordinate; is that fair to say?
                  (7)    BY MR. WEBB:                                see if you can give the (a) same answer.          (11)     A. I wouid hope not. I would hope
                  (°)    Q. You fully expected to be fired            es)    Did you become aware that what got       that If (12) one has a cause of action
                 when you ;>> wrote this memo?                       Philip (1o) Morris particularly upset was not    against a company because (13) they
                  (.o^     A. Yes.                                  i that you wrote the (11) memo that is            are doing something which is both
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                   BSA
                                                In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation          William Farone, PhD - Vol. I        1014100                     XMAX(39l39)


                   unethical and 114- probably legally              wife's issues cia would not interfere with          n9;     And I told two of the people that
                   Incorrect that the company would c1s1            your promotion?                                     were <<n% closest to me that in my
                   take that, you know, It's the whoie whistle r.si           A. That's correct.                        opinion those things were 2:)
                   blower (=E) thing.                                   ie    Q. He told you that?                      connected because no one would deny it
                            If you find out something that's         ( 17 )   A. That's correct.                        and that, (zz) therefore, I probably would
                    (-7)
                   being (15 ^ done is wrong, It's within the          ie;    Q. You believe Dr. Hausermann to          be terminated.
                   prerogative to (:°) exterminate the              be an (19) honorable man; do you not?               (23)    Q. And in your own mind did you
                   whistle blower or listen to what (zo) they        ^20)     A. I have no reason to doubt his          believe that (2 4' you were not getting your
                   have to say.                                     word on that (zi) issue.                            promotion because of your (25) wife's
                    ^2:)    So, my expectation was not for           (2z;     Q. So, as far objective evidence          problems?
                   the i22% response. And I thought I was           that you (z'- had, the objective evidence
                                                                    was that Philip Morris (24) was not letting                           Page 242
                   dealing with (23) professional people,
                   people that I could deal with (24) in a          your wife's problems affect their (25)              (1)    A. Exactly.
                   gentlemanly and professional manner.            !judgment regarding your promotion?                  (2)    Q. Although, didn't you tell us when
                    (25)     If somebody comes to you with                                                               (3) Mr. Brown was asking you questions
                                                                                          Page 240                      you actually (4) thought that you did not get
                   bad news and
                                                                     (i)     MR. BROWN: Objection, vague as to          the promotion because (5) you didn't go
                                         Page 238                   time.                                               along with the program as other people (6)
                    c1 your response Is to kill the messenger (2)            When are you asking him that that he       did regarding causation?
                   or to say you (2) can't have any opinion         had (3) that feeling?                                (7)   A. You're talking about two
                   that is separate from ours at (3) Philip          w       THE WITNESS: This had to do with,          different times. (8) On July 6, 1984, 1 was
                   Morris. That's not what I anticipated. 1(4)       (5) remember, I had I thought at that time I       a hundred percent convinced (9) that my
                   had been going around arguing with               was still (5 being promoted. There's nothing        promotion was not given to me on the
                   senior executives (5) at Philip Morris for       to argue over. c7 i It's not until the discussion   basis (lo) of my wife's compiaint.
                   seven years.                                     with Mr. Remington ie that the issue comes           cii)   As of 1996 In seeing transcripts of
                    ce     Q. I want to make sure that I            up about what is the cause of 19) this, why.         (12) testimony from the people who
                   understand.                                       (10)     BY MR. WEBB:                              came into authority at (13) Philip Morris
                     7     First of all, who were the employees,      (i i    Q. And then the meeting with Mr.          replacing Dr. Hausermann, where every
                     e fellow employees that you started talking Remington, (12) he never told you that Philip           (14) one of them denies causation,
                   to telling (9 the fellow employees that you      Morris was not going (13) to promote you            denies addiction, It (15) represented In
                   were going to take (io) some legal action        because of some issue involving your (14)           my mind very strong evidence that the
                   against Philip Morris?                           wife; did he?                                        (lE) rationale of why did they decide to
                    (li)    A. They were not fellow                   (15)    A. No. Dr. Hausermann                     not give my wife (17) a promotion.
                   employees. They were (12) my - I had             mentioned It (16) subsequent to the                  (18)   The thought occurred to me that
                   reporting to me at that time five or six         meeting as being the potential (17)                 not giving (19) my wife a promotion
                    (13) people. And I think that I mentioned       reason.                                             might be a way of getting rid of (20) me
                   it potentially (14) to the two people that I       (ie)    Q. Did Dr. Hausermann tell you --         because I was an admitter and what they
                   felt might be the most (i5) disturbed by         let's stick (19) with Mr. Remington.                were (21) looking forwas deniers.
                   it. Cliff Lily, and I don't even (16)              (20)    He did not tell you that; did he?          (22)   So, today I think the evidence Is
                   remember whether the second one was                (21)    A. Not that I recall.                     very (23) strong that the whole deal was
                   Frank Watson or (17) Al Castman.                   (22)    Q. And when you talked to these           a setup. That (24) getting rid of my wife
                     _6      But I didn't want them to be           other (23) employees at Philip Morris, did          was a way of getting me lzsi behind the
                   shocked when, (19) in fact, I was, when I        you tell them that (24) you believed you            eight ball and getting rid of us both
                   was terminated, that's all, 20) Because I were not being promoted because of (25)
                                                                                                                                            Page 243
                   expected termination. And I wanted them your wife's issues?
                    (21) to be aware of the fact that this was                                                          c1    together.
                   happening.                                                             Page 241                      (2)     My wife's former husband was a
                    (.z;     It's no secret that my wife had filed (i)       A. Yes.                                    pulmonary (3) physician at the medical
                   a<<3 complaint. There was no secret                (z)    Q. And who did you saythatto?              college of Virginia, very (4) strong in
                   that my promotion (24) had been turned             (3)    A. Well, I don't, as I said just a few     anti-smoking. I had been going around
                   down. None of those things were (25)               (4 minutes ago, I do not recall exactly. I        the (s) countryside telling people at
                   secret that we are talking about.                 believe one c5! of the two people might            universities, trying (6) to hire them away,
                                                                     have been Cliff Lily, (6) Dr. Lily.                that our product causes cancer (7) and
                                         Page 239                       7    And I don't remember who the               was addictive.
                    (i)    Q. Okay. I want to make sure that I      other one (e) was. These were my direct              (e)    So, in putting together the
                    (2) understand.                                  subordinates who I felt (9) would be               testimony that (9) I've seen from'96 until
                    (3)    Had someone from Philip Morris told       most Impacted by my termination.                   today, I have to reassess (10) the belief
                   you a that they were not giving you this           (io)    I let all of my subordinates know         that I held on July 6, 1984, yeah, (11) July
                   promotion because (s) of something your           that I (11) was no longer going be                 6, 1984, that I was terminated because of
                   wife did?                                         promoted. So, what I told (12) them five           my (12) wife's complaint.
                    (6)    A. Yes.                                   months ago was not going to happen.                 (13)    Q. So, based on what you now
                    (' )   Q. I thought that you told us earlier     So, (:3; all of my subordinates knew that          believe today?
                   that (e; when Mr. Brown was asking you            I was not going to c-ai be promoted. That           (14)   A.   Correct.

                    questions that after (9) your wife did not get   was general knowledge.                              (is)    Q. When did the conspiracystart at
                    her promotion, that you rno) actually went in     (15)    What wasn't general knowledge -           Philip (16) Morris to not promote your wife,
                   to talk to Mr. Hausermann, (ii) Dr.               they all (:6) knew that my wife had filed          cause you then to (17) get upset and then
                    Hausermann?                                      an E.E.O.C. complaint (17) against the             terminate you; when did that cia
                      =z     A. That's correct.                      company. So, the only missing link is              conspiracy actually start at Philip Morris
                      i^     Q, And he assured you that your           i.e connecting the two.                          based on (19) what you belive today?
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                 BSA                            In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation         William Farone, PhD - Vol. I         1014I00                      XMAX(40F40)

                   ^2":  A. Shortly after the Chip Alone           Ibegansometime izo; before December of               ;terminated.
                  lawsuit was (s-:) filed.                           1983 to publically announce your (zi)                ;22)   And, therefore, he recognized that,
                   (22'  Q. When was that, sir?                     promotion knowing that after they                    and by cz3) doing this, with the people
                    23)  A. August of 1983. That's when             announced it that (22) they then would not           that they felt were (24) promotable or
                  the decision (z<; was taken, as I                 promote your wife, then they cz:+; would not         followed along whatever lines that (25)
                  understand it, to go Into the (zs) ostrich        then promote you, you would then write a             Wally thought they should go along. I
                  defense. And as told to be my Fred                  z4) letter, would hire a lawyer, write a snotty    don't know
                  Newman                                            letter (25) and fire you; is that right?
                                                                                                                                          Page 248
                                      Page 244                                         Page 246                           (1) whether he felt that he was
                    ;• and simply cutout any dissenting, we           Cu     MR. BROWN: I'll object to that, first,      protecting himself or (2) trying to take a
                   were told to go ^z) back and tell our              (2) because if that's a snotty letter, then I'm    lot of people out with him,
                   people if we terminate somebody (3) and           a)3) Russian astronaut. We can move from (3)               I don't know what Is going on In
                   they say bad things about Phllip Morris,          that.                                               New York (4) City, but the fact remains
                  we'll (4) hit them with a lawsuit so fast           (4)    Secondly, let's make it clearthatthe       thatwithin one week or (5) two weeks
                   and so heavy it will (s) make their head           (s) word "conspiracy" has lots of different       after these announcements are made
                   spin.                                             meanings. I (6) have no idea what you              he's (6) gone and leaves the premises
                   (6)   Q. So, the conspiracy started about         mean. It's ambiguous and (7) vague. And            under the same kind of (7) conditions
                  that time (7) in your judgment?                    until you clear it up. I think your (a) answers    that I left the premises.
                   (e)   A. April of 1984 Is clearly when            are going to be worthless.                          (e)    Q. Who took over the conspiracy
                  they (5) terminated the Denoble and Mele            (9)   BY MR. WEBB:                                from him when (9) he left?
                  experiments. That's (no) clearly the time           (10)    Q. Sir, I'II change the word "snotty"      (io)     MR. BROWN: Same objection. The
                  when I would say that things (zi)                 to (ii) "threatening" and answer the               word (ii) "conspiracy" is meaningless,
                  changed. As I understand it from Mr.               question.                                          ambiguous and vague. (12) We don't know
                  Newman, from (12) Dr. Osdene, from                 (12)     A. It's all wrong.                       what you're asking.
                  Max Hausermann, the impetus for the                (13)     MR. BROWN: It's helpful, but--             (13)     THE WITNESS: To the extent that
                   W) change in heart or the change in               (14)     THE WITNESS: Basically, it's no          there is (14) a group of people involved in
                  philosophy at (14) Philip Morris was due           (z5) conspiracy. We talked a little while ago, this, the next thing (is) that happens is that
                 to the filing of that lawsuit.                     maybe (ie) several hours about how within          I'm contacted by Mr. Frank (16) Resnik.
                  (is )   Q. And that was in August of 1983?        a companyyou can (17) have bad actors               (27)      BY MR. WEBB:
                    1     A. I believe that's the case.             and good actors. It's true of any (1e)              (ie)      Q. What's his title?
                    17)   Q. That's correct. You're right. But      organization of that type.                          u9i      A. He's vice-president of
                 we (le) know that can't be true, don't we,          (19)    My interpretation of this was not that    something or (20) another up in New
                 because it was in (i9) December of 1983             (zo) Philip Morris had a conspiracy or was        York City, but he used to be the )zi)
                 that Philip Morris through Max (20)                becoming evil. (21) My interpretation of this      Director of Research. And Frank Resnik
                 Hausermann made a public announcement             was that there were some i2z) people within comes down (22) and says that they
                 that you were )21) going to be promoted to         Philip Morris who enjoyed the power (za)           want to have some new Ideas for (23)
                 the number one position; is (z2) that             that comes from having lots of secrets and          directions for the company.
                 correct?                                           doing (z4) things in a secretive manner,            (24)     So, Dr. Lilly and a bunch of us talk
                  (z3)    A. That's correct. But you're              (25)    And the interesting thing about those about (25) getting into the energy
                 absolutely (24) wrong that it can't be                                                                business. Because we had
                 true. It turns out as I (zs) found out later                            Page 247
                 that announcement was made in every                (1) announcements, within one week after                               Page 249
                                                                   those (2) announcements were made, the               (1) already tried pharmaceuticals. And
                                     Page 245                       man who engineered (3) those                       the company (2) didn't want to go into
                   ('.) department.                                announcements, Mr. Wallace Mcdowell,                pharmaceuticals. They didn't c3) want to
                   (z)    A person was singled out to be told. William (4) Wallace Mcdowell, Wally was                 go into computers.
                  It (_) was Richard English in the leaf           terminated. He was (s) gone, smoke,                 (a)     We were looking forthings with a
                 department. There (4) was someone in              history.                                           30 (5) percent profit margin. The next
                 the operations department. In every f5)            ee;     So, all of a sudden the man who           thing that happens, (e) Mr. Hugh
                 case those people ended up not being              engineers (7) this is gone. His boss at that       Cullman, Mr. Shep Pollack, and Frank
                 promoted and cFi being eventually                 time was Mr. Shepard B) Pollack, Shep               Resnik (7) come to Richmond in early
                 terminated from the company.                      Pollack. And the next thing that's (9)             '84. And we make this (e) huge
                  c7      So, you have to think a little bit       happening is that I'm contacted.                   presentation about opportunity for
                 deeper (e) here. Okay. And It's quite              (10)     BY MR. WEBB:                             technology (9) in the energy business.
                 possible, and though 1 9) have no - this           (11)     Q. When you say engineers,                (io)      Within two weeks of that time Mr.
                 is just based on the evidence that I (10)         engineering the (iz) idea of announcing your Pollack (11) is smoke. He's history. He's
                 see, why would they go around and tell            promotion knowing that it (13) would not           fired. The president (iz) of Philip Morris
                 four (11) different people that they were         take place?                                        U.S.A. Is gone. Mr. Resnik, (13) Dr.
                 going to be promoted (12) to                       (14)     A. I think that at the time, I don't     Hausermann, come visit me in my office.
                 vice-president only to deny that all to all       know, (is) I've never heard his testimony And (14) they say to me, Bill, we're very
                 four (-.- of those people.                        and we could find out (16) from Mr.                sorry that we had (15) to make use of
                  (=1)     Q. Based on what you believe            Mcdowell. But I think at the time (17) Mr.         your material for Mr. Goldsmith to (1E)
                 today, and (-.5 ) you're testifying today based Mcdowell told Dr. Hausermann to                      ridicule Mr. Pollack at the board meeting
                 on your state of mind r:6) today against          announce that (19) promotion, told Mr.             to get him (17) fired.
                 Philip Morris; is that correct?                   Remington, told all these people (19) to            (1e)     So, there are all kinds of politics
                  (=7 ^    A. That's correct                       announce these promotions, Mr,                     going c:9) on at this time. And I'm just a
                  cie)     Q. You believe that there actually    1 Mcdowell was in (zo) trouble with the              tiny little pawn in (20) this game. So, I
                 was a (19) conspiracy at Philip Morris that       company and was due to be (zr)                     can't tell you, you'd have to ask (21) --
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                   BSA                            In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation            William Farone, PhD - Vol. I       10/4/00                       xMAx(41/41)
                   my suggestion Is that you bring Into the              terminated, (22) Mr. Mcdowell, Mr.                (25)    A.  No, not much at all.
                   trial iz   all of those senior executives             Pollack, Dick English were (23) probably
                   and you ask them why (23) Mr. Mcdowell                victims of whatever infighting was going                             Page 254
                   got fired. Why Mr. Pollack got fired. cza>            on (24) In the Inside of Philip Morris, They (i         Q. Piecing this all together as you've
                   Why Mr. Remington only lasted five                   are not <<-) members of some plan.               just << described it to me here?
                   months. Why ^25! Dr. Haughton who had                                                                  0)     A. With all due respect, Mr. Webb,
                   no experience in R & D was                                               Page 252                     it took (4 about ten seconds to read
                                                                          (i I'm just an expendable guy down at          these. When you read a (s) deposition of
                                       Page 250                         the (z) R & D level who happens to have          people who are vice-president of (6)
                         brought In to head it and all of those         a position that Is c3 no longer favorable        research and development at Philip
                    things.                                             to the new guys coming in. I (4) don't           Morris who (7) constantly deny things
                      " I can only testify as to what                   think this is a -- they go around and say        that Philip Morris says every (e) scientist
                    happened. I(3) obviously have no                     (5) we're going to get Bill Farone or           knows, I don't need, how long does it
                    records or anything. I can only (4) give            we're going to get (6) whoever.                  take (9) you to piece together that those
                    you my impressions.                                  c7i   I think what happened Is that you         people are not (10) saying what they
                     (5    Q_ But you clearly, you've done a lot        have (e) this Inevitable crunching away          truly believe,
                    of (e) thinking about this; is that correct, you    of the internal (9) politics of a huge              in     Q. But you took the time to tryto
                    said deep (7 thinking a minute ago?                 organization that Is fighting the (io)           piece (iz) it - strike the question.
                     (?)   A. Only in reading, yeah, when I             ethical dilemma of how do we survive              (13)     Do you believe that you have
                    read all of (9 the transcripts and the              when people in don't like us and don't          focused on (14) this because of certain
                    depositions from 1996 on, (10) all of               like our product.                                bitterness that came from (i5) your
                    these.                                               i12i   And sometimes the good guys win termination?
                     (il     ( mean, for a company that admits          and (13) sometimes let's call them the            (16)    A. Absolutely not. I'm so pleased
                    that the n21 maJority of scientists believe         unethical guys win, (14) That goes on in        that (17) Philip Morris put the material on
                    that cigarette causes (13) cancer and for           all companies.                                  the web site and (18) I've testified to this.
                   a company that admits that the (14)                   (15)   I'm not saying that they                  (19)    I think that Philip Morris is
                   consensus is that it's addictive, why                orchestrated (ie) this. I'm saying It           definitely, (20) and I've said this In
                   would people (15) from that company                  played into a sequence of (17) events. If       several recent depositions, (zi) has
                   constantly testify that that is (16) not so?         you go back and look at the management definitely turned the corner about the
                   There's no conspiracy there.                          ile charts from the middle of 1983 to          way that (zz) Philip Morris is going to
                    (17)    Q. That's what I'm asking. I'm about        the middle of (i9) 1984, you'll see a           handle these cases, about (23) their
                   talking (_e ) about the conspiracy to get you        dramatic number of changes In (20)              responsibilities.
                   terminated right (i9) now.                           management at all levels.                        (za)     I think that everything that has
                    cZo     A. My point is that if you can have         (21)    So, the company was going               happened, (25) has happened for the
                   a (21) conspiracy between seven                     through turmoil.                                 better. And, In fact, I'm
                   executives from seven (22 companles                  (22)    Q. I understand that, but a moment
                   that to testify that nicotine isn't (23)            ago you (23) told me that there was no                                Page 255
                   addictive when they know that It Is,                 question that there was (za) this plan for four ci) pleased that I've been able to help
                   getting rid of (24) people that you don't           people's promotions to be (25) announced? Philip Morris (2) because the stock isn't
                   want Is a small problem.                                                                             going down and stuff because (3) of
                    c25i    I wouldn't call It a conspiracy. We                             Page 253                    this.
                   just                                                 (i)    A. That's right.                          (4)    It's actually going to help them
                                                                        (z     Q. Including yours?                      resolve (5) these issues by getting It
                                         Page 251                       (3)    A. It wasn't a plan. They actually       behind them, Including (6) some type of
                    (1) don't want these people around here            carried a it out.                                regulation. So, I'm pleased to be able (7
                    that might get z in our way.                        (5)    Q. But at the time knowing that they     to help them.
                    (3     Q. I'II call it a plan and not a            were not cF; going to promote you and that        (e)    I don't view this as being an attack
                   conspiracy. ^4; The plan to set you up, that's      they were going to (7) jerk the rug outfrom      on (9) Philip Morris anymore than I did
                   to use your term a:s minute ago.                    underneath you                                   when I was there (io thinking that it
                           A. Yeah.                                     (e     MR. BROWN: I don't think he said         would be better to be regulated by in
                      ^    Q. The plan is to set you up was a          that. I(9 think you said that, but he didn't.    F.D.A.
                   plan that (a) a number of people                     (io     THE WI T NESS: I don't think that I      (12)     In my scientific opinion the
                   participated in going back to (9 before they        said in that. I think that Mr. Mcdowell          industry «3; would be better served by
                   ever announced your promotion?                      probably said -- <«; what I said because         being regulated and put (14 all the
                    (1^)    A. I didn't say that. Ijust gave you       Mr. Mcdowell must have known at (13) the         liability behind them.
                   facts. n1; If you draw the conclusion               time that he told Dr. Hausermann to               (15)     Q. But is it your view that you've
                   that a number of people r.zi participated           announce my (14) promotion that for              testified (i®) in trials or depositions against
                   in, maybe I missed something.                       whatever reason he's in trouble.                 Philip Morris on (.7) 25 occasions because
                    (i 3)   Q. Isn't that what you were trying to       c15     So, if he picks four people and         you're trying to help Philip (:e) Morris?
                   tell r.a me, Mr. McDowell, Mr. Pollack, Mr.         knowing (.E) that he's going to get axed or       (19)     A. That's correct.
                   Resnik, ;=`-) Mr. Cullman, all of these people      is in trouble, when ^i, he gets axed, what's (20)          Q. Now, the memo that you have in
                   were part of some (ie) plan -                       going to happen to his (:e) hand-picked          front of (21) you dated that's marked as
                    (=1)    A. No, no.                                 people. We're Wally's buddies; right. (19)       Defendants' Exhibit 1, (22) after you wrote
                    ('-E)   Q. -- to cause, let me finish, to          You know, this is the way that large             the memo, and after you had some i23i
                   cause you ;i°) to have a promotion                  corporations -10workso.                          conversations with co-employees or other
                   announced and then have the rug 20                     2.    BY MR. WEBB:                            employees czai about the fact that you
                   jerked out from underneath you; is that              (22)    Q. Would it fair to say, Dr. Farone,    were going to have some (25) legal action
                   correct?                                            you've !23 ^ seemed to have spent a lot of       against Philip Morris --
                    <<-)    A. No, no. The guys who got                time thinking about c2a this over the years?
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                esA                          In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation            William Farone, PhD - Vol. I      10/4/00                       XMAX(d2/47)   .
                                     Page 256                      (3)    Q. Tell us who Barry Case is?           remember happening.
                    =-   A. They're not co-employees.              (a)    A. Barry Case at that time was the (4)           BY MR. WEBB:
                 They're cz; subordinates.                        director (5) of either Human Resources           (5)     Q. Actually, you know what, will this
                  (s:    Q. Subordinates, that you told that      or some title like that, (6) employee           help to (e) refresh your memory on what
                there was !4 going to be some legal action        relations.                                      happened if I show it to (-,) you now?
                between you and (5) Philip Morris --               (7)    Q. In Richmond?                          (8)     A. No, not really. 1've gone
                         A. No. I didn't tell them that. You're    (8)    A. Yes, In Richmond.                    through this so (9) many times that I
                        misconstruing --                           (9)    Q. And was Dr. Hausermann present think that my memory Is pretty (10)
                  (e)    Q. I thought you said you told them      at all (10) during this discussion?             clear.
                that i9^ there was going to be an E.E.O.C.         (11)    A. I walked Into Barry Case's           (:.1)    MR. WEBB: I'll mark this as
                complaint?                                        office and (=2) Dr. Hausermann Was              Defendants' (iz) Exhibit 2 for identification
                  (1o)     A. I might have to file an E.E.O.C.    sitting In the chair next to him. (13) And      for this deposition. (13) I'll hand you a copy
                  (11) complaint. Is that a legal action?         Max was supposed to be on vacation.             of it, Dr. Farone. And give u4) you a copy
                  (12)     Q. Well, do you consider that an        (14)    Q. So, when you walked into the        ofit, (1s)
                action (13) against Philip Morris?                room this (15) discussion or meeting,            (16)     (The documentrefen-ed to was
                  ( ia)   A. It's an action against Philip        whatever you want to call it, (i6) involved     marked by (17) the C.S.R. as Defendants'
                Morris. (15) It's an administrative action. I     three people, you, Dr. Hausermann, and          Exhibit2 for (18) identification and attached
                don't know that (16) It's an action In             (17) Barry Case who was connected to the       to and made a (19) part of this deposition.)
                court. So, I'm not sure how -                     Human Resources (1e) Department at               (20)
                 ( i)     Q. What's the difference?               Philip Morris; is that correct?                  (21)     BY MR. WEBB:
                 r_e)     A. Well, my understanding Is that        (19)    A. That's correct.                      (22)     Q. Looking at Defendants' Exhibit
                there's i° administrative law and then             (20)    Q. And at that time you told us this
                                                                                                                  2, and I (23) think that you said that you've
                there's civil law. (20) There are two             morning (21) that you now realized that Mr.
                                                                                                                  seen it, in (24) connection with the litigation
                different kinds of things.                        Case was reading from (22) a statement
                                                                                                                  that you've been (zs) testifying in, you've
                 (2.)     When I testified on behalf of Lever     that he had in front of him; is that (23)
                                                                                                                  seen this statement; is that
                 (z2) Brothers before the Federal Trade           correct?
                Commission, that's (23) public law and             (24)    A. That's correct.                                         Page 261
                it's administrative. It's before a(z4) Judge       (25)    Q. And Mr. Case on behalf of the
                                                                                                                     (1) correct?
                and It's not a trial before - for damages          Human
                                                                                                                     (2)   A. That's correct.
                (25) before civil authorities.                                                                       (3)   Q. And I believe that you've testified
                                                                                        Page 259
                                                                                                                    on (4) other occasions that in looking at this
                                    Page 257                        (i) Resources Department at Philip Morris
                                                                                                                    statement (5) that you believe that it
                 (1) And as I understand the                       told you that (2) you were being terminated
                                                                                                                    essentially sets forth what (e) you believe
                administrative (2) function of the                 from employment due to (3) irreconcilable
                                                                                                                    Mr. Case told you; is that correct?
                E.E.O.C., the complaint would go (3)               differences with management and an (4)
                                                                                                                     (7)   A. That Is correct, but I believe
                before a panel and not before a court              attitude of insubordination demonstrated by
                                                                                                                    that my (e) Interpretation of what this
                with a jury.                                        (5) statements made to other employees
                                                                                                                    means is different than (9) your
                 (a)   So, we weren't going to court. Let's        regarding your (6) threatened litigation; is
                                                                                                                    interpretation or the company's, but
                put (5) itthatway.                                 that correct?
                                                                                                                    that's (10) essentially correct.
                       Q. You were going to take some               (7)     A. I don't recall if that's what's on    (u 1)  Q. But what is on Exhibit2 is
                type of action (7 ^ against Philip Morris; is      that (e) pieceof paper, butthe paperwas
                                                                                                                    essentially (12) what Mr. Case said to you?
                that correct?                                      not given to me at (9) the time. So, I'm          (13)   A. Yes.
                 (°)   A. Correct.                                 not going to say that It was (10) correct.        (14)   Q. Now, so, in some substance Mr.
                 (5)   Q. Now, there was a meeting called          They may have made this up afterwards            Case told (i5) you that you were being
                on July 6, (=o) 1984, when you were                for (11) all that I know.
                                                                                                                    terminated, first of all; is (16) that correct?
                terminated; is that correct?                        (12)      Q. Were words like that -- let me       17 )  A. That is correct.
                        A. No.                                     ask, in (13) form, effect, or substance did       ne)    Q. No question about that?
                        Q. Were you terminated on July 6th,        Mr. Case tell you (14) that you were being
                                                                                                                     (19)   A. Correct.
                1984?                                              terminated?                                       (20)   UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Excuse
                        A. I was.                                   (=5)     A. The thing that stock In my          me, (2. Mr. Webb, could you identify
                 (i4)   Q. And did you go to a meeting that        mind which I've (16) testified to before         Exhibit 2 somehow, a(zz) date or a memo.
                day?                                               that I was terminated for (17)                    (23)   MR. WEBB: I'm sorry. Yes. It
                 :5)    A. No.                                     insubordination. What exactly the                doesn't (24) have any date on it, but I'll go
                 (16)   Q. Was there a meeting that day?           insubordination (18) was, I don't really         ahead.
                 (_i)   A. No. I was told to go to Barry           recall.                                           (25)   BY MR. WEBB:
                Case's (:s) office. So, itwasn'ta                   (19)      MR. BROWN: Can we have that
                meeting. I was supposed to (19) go there           marked, (zo) please.                                                Page 262
                and talk to Barry Case about what I didn't          (2.)      MR. WEBB; I'm going to. I intend to    (i)   Q. Is Exhibit2 a document which you
                  zoi know.                                        mark (22) it.                                    believe (2) Mr. Case had in front of him on
                 (2_    Q. That's not a meeting?                    (23)      MR. BROWN: Can we have a copy         the date of July6, (3) 1984, when you were
                 ;22)   A, Well, I guess, Just him and I, if       of it now?                                       terminated?
                two (23) people is a meeting, then yeah,            (2a)     MR. WEBB: I will. I'll give it to you   (4)   MR. BROWN: Objection, foundation.
                okay, I went to a (24) meeting every day,           (25) right now. I can ask my questions and       (5)   THE WITNESS: I have no way of
                 ^25    Q. You were called to his office; is       I'll give you                                    knowing (6) that.
                that                                                                                                 (7)   BY MR. WEBB:
                                                                                        Page 260
                                                                                                                     (e)   Q. However, the content of this
                                Page 258                          1 (1) the copy of the statement, but I'll ask you document you (9) believe sets forth in
                   correct?                                        what you (2) remember happening. And             substance what happened in the (10)
                     A. That's correct.                           ithat's all that I'm asking (3) what you
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                  BSA                                In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation         William Farone, PhD - Vol. I       10/4100                       xmrvc(43143)
                     meeting; is that correct?                          this. Because I don't think they would have     ; the (ls ) term that rang in my mind.
                      (1l)    A. That's correct.                         c13; gone forth, butto Barry Case. Max            (16)    And to my way of thinking I hadn't
                      ('-2)   Q. And at the bottom it says, there's wasn't around. (14) If anything, they would           done (17) anything Insubordinate. I had
                     a r.3; handwritten at the bottom; is that          go talk to Max about it.                          done what my boss and (le) I had
                     correct, do you (:4) see the handwriting at         (15)    So, my interpretation of this is         discussed. And I hadn't had a chance to
                     the bottom of that?                                different (16) than yours. That I sent Max this talk (19) to my boss about it.
                      r.-)    A. Yes.                                   letter. They (17) didn't like it because they      (20)    So, I think it's a mistake, a bad
                      (:6)    Q. That's not your handwriting; is it? don't like people (ie) writing letters of this       mistake (21) to accuse an employee of
                      ;1° )   A. That Is not.                          type. And so they (15) terminated me.              insubordination If you (22) don't
                      (1e)    Q. Can you read it?                        (20)    I had no problems with the               understand all of the facts and you don't
                      (15)    A. i think It says memo                  termination. (zl) As I said, the problem that I give (23) them a chance to explain. That
                     something to (zo) Dr. Farone by                   had was the way in (22) which it was done          is a big mistake.
                     probably Barry Case, not for sure, on             rather than just letting Max go (23) ahead          (24)    Q. But you told us a moment ago
                      (z.) 7/6184.                                     and deal with it on the basis of being called     you actually (25) expected this to happen?
                     (22)     Q. And that's the date of the             (24) in in a surprised way and read this
                     meeting 7/6/84?                                   thing.                                                                Page 267
                     (i3)     A. That's correct.                        (25)     BY MR. WEBB:                             (1)    A. I expected to be terminated In a
                     (24)     Q. Now, the first sentence says that                                                        (2) professional and gentlemanly
                    you're (25) being terminated from                                       Page 265                      manner, yes, I did.
                    employment due to                                   (1)     Q. So, you weren't upset about what       (3)    Q. And in a gentiemanlyway Mr.
                                                                       was going (2) on in this meeting?                 Case told you (4) in the meeting that they
                                         Page 263                       (3)    A. No. I was upset. What I said           would continue your pay for (5) a period of
                       1 irreconcilable differences with               was I was (4) upset about the way that            time and try to negotiate a severance (6)
                    management and an (z) attitude of                  they were doing it. I(5) expected to be           package with you; is that correct?
                    insubordination demonstrated by (3)                terminated, but not this way.                      (7)    A. That's correct.
                    statements made to other employees                  (6)    Q. So my question is, at the time that (8)        Q. Exactly what you wanted?
                    regarding your (4) threatened litigation; is       (7) Mr. Case told you that you were being          (9)    A. That's correct.
                   that correct, that's what (5) it says?             terminated, (6) were you shocked and                (10)    Q. And so why would your -- strike
                    (-)     A. That's what It says.                   upset?                                            the (11) question.
                    (1)     Q. Okay. Now, I take it that you could (9)         That's my question.                        (12)    Did you turn to Mr. Case in the
                    (E) understand how Philip Morris upon              (10)      A. Yes, I was.                          meeting (13) and tell him that regarding the
                   seeing the memo (e) that you wrote to Dr.           uz)       Q. And when Mr. Case read this         letter that you had (14) sent to Philip Morris
                   Hausermann on June 26, 1984, (io)                  statement off (12) to you in substance that
                   marked as Exhibit 1, in which you told (11)        appears in Defendants' (13) Exhibit 2, am I                 MR. BROWN: Are you talking about
                   Dr. Hausermann that you had retained an            correct you interrupted Mr. Case and (14)                 Exhibit 1 ?
                   attorney, (12) that you had instructed the         told him, you're making a big mistake; is that              MR. WEBB: I'm talking about Exhibit
                   attorney to prepare to (13) file a complaint        (:.5) correct?
                   against Philip Morris?                              (16)      A. Absolutely. And I tried to                    BY MR. WEBB:
                    (14)     A. Yes,                                  explain and he (17) wouldn't let me, but i                  Q. Did you tell him that you wanted
                    (15)     Q. And that you had asked Dr.           was not threatening any (le) litigation.           to (20) explain to him what happened and
                   Hausermann to (16) make a determination            He said something about threatening or            that you had been (21) advised byyour
                   with senior management to (17) negotiate a          (19) Insubordination.                            lawyer to send that letter and you (22) now
                   mutually satisfactory solution, and you (1a)        (20)      From my prospective, I said that       thought you had received bad advice?
                   making statements to subordinates about           you're (21) making a big mistake. The               (23)     A. I may have said something to
                   E.E.O.C. (19) complaints, you can                 only person that I knew (zz) that I had            that effect.
                   understand why Philip Morris (2o) might           talked to was Max. And I sent him a (23)            (24)     Q. And that's because you had
                   believe that you're insubordinate; is that         personal and confidential letter which he         realized that a (2s) ietterthatyou sentthat
                     z'.! fair to say?                               advised me (Z4) to go to the attorney. I           you thought as a threat
                             A. No.                                  was confident that Barry c25) Case didn't
                    13       MR. BROWN: Objection, calls for         know that Max had given me that advice.                                 Page 268
                   (24) speculation.                                                                                     (1) would get you your promotion, actually
                   (25)      THE WITNESS; Let me also explain                              Page 266                     got you (2) terminated; is that correct?
                  that my                                             (1)      Q. So, my only question is, did you       (3)     A. No, It's not. As a matter of fact
                                                                     interrupt (z) Mr. Case and say to him that         you're (4) just spending all this time
                                        Page 264                     you are making a big (3) mistake?                  proving very, very (s) niceiy that I got
                   11) interpretation of this has nothing to do       (4)     A. I did.                                 exactly what I wanted. I got the (6)
                  with what I(2 said to my subordinates. I            (5)      MR. BROWN: Did you say "yes" or          severance package. I went out and
                  don't think that (3) Mr. Case was aware of         "no"?                                              formed my own (7) company. I'm now
                  what I said to my subordinates (4) atthe            (6)     THE WITNESS: I did.                       president, chief executive officer (8) of a
                  ti m e.                                             (7)     BY MR. WEBB:                              very successful high technology
                   (s)      The other employee that I talked to,      (e)     Q. And why did you tell him that he       company which 1(9) should have done in
                  Max, (s) the other employee is Dr.                 was (9) making a big mistake when you just the first place.
                  Hausermann, and the c7) statements that            told us that you eio; were happy to be             cxo)      And for ten years I didn't think
                  demonstrate insubordination is the (e)            iterminated as long as you could (11) have a anything (lx) more of Philip Morris. I
                  memo that I then sent him.                        !severance package?                                 mean, this is entirely (12) things that
                   (5)      So at the time that this was read to      (12)      A. Because I don't believe that I       happened within corporate confines.
                  me, I(10 don't think that Mr. Case or             !was -- see, (as) the point was that you're And (13) there's nothing that happened
                  anyone at Philip Morris rl:; knew that I had       called into this office (14) and he's              here as you just (14) pointed out that
                  talked to any of my subordinates (12) about accusing me of insubordination. That's                    wasn't within my belief was going (-4) to
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                  Bs,                             In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation             William Farone, PhD - Voi. I      10l4100                          xMAxJ441")
                   happen.                                            not because it was (17) insubordination?          1 (ie; correct?
                    ^ :c)  The only thing that was shocking            (18)   A. That's correct.                           (i5)    A. Sure.
                   to me,       very badly shocking was the            119)    Q. And so that's what got you so           (20)     Q. Actually, I'll let you, spell the
                   comportment of dragging (16) my boss               upset?                                             phrase (21) for the benefit of the court
                   back from his vacation to sit here while            (20)   A. The terminology of                      reporter.
                    (15) they carry out this charade of getting       insubordination because (zz) I believe              (22)     A. I think It's d-i-e, alea I think is'
                   you escorted (2c) off the premises in              that everybody that works for a company (23) ad-e-a, jacta, j-a-c-t-a, est Is e-s-t.
                   handcuffs, I mean, you know.                        (2z) has a right to have an opinion and             124)    Q. Now, forthe benefit of me and
                    (2i)   All they had to do was say, you            have that opinion (22) heard. It's not             others that (25) don't speak Latin, including
                   know, (2,1 Bill, you can't go around               Insubordination. If I ran my (24) company our court reporter, the
                   writing letters like this, 23) you know,           that way, I mean, I have a bunch of (25)
                   get out of here. Okay. Well, let's get (25)        scientists who differ with my opinions all                               Page 273
                   severance and whatever.                            the time.                                           in literal translation in Latin of this phrase is
                    (zs)   So, they elected a way to do this                                                             the (2) die is cast; is that correct?
                   thatl                                                                    Page 271                      (3)    A. That Is correct
                                                                       (i)   Q. But even though it wasn't                 (4)    Q. And this actually is a very famous
                                          Page 269                   insubordination, (z) you don't blame Philip         Latin (5) phrase from classic literature; is
                     f i) felt was not professional. And I don't      Morris for going ahead and (3) terminating         that correct?
                   feel about (z) the company In order for           you?                                                 (6)    A. That is correct,
                    you to understand the (3) feelings, you            (4)   A. No, I neverdid.                           (7)    Q. Andthefamous --thisfamous
                   would have had to understand all of (4)            (5)    Q. Now, even though you didn't              phrase from (a) classic literature which I at
                   the problems that Philip Morris was going blame Philip (6) Morris for terminating you,                least had heard of, (9) but not in the Latin, it
                   through at (5) that time. And the absolute in the middle of the (1) meeting do you                    was uttered by Julius (10) Caesar as he
                   disdain that the (6) employees had for            remember turning to Dr. Hausermann (e)              cross the Rubicon river; is that (ii) correct?
                   the Human Resources Department.                   and saying something to him in Latin?                (12)    A. Well, you're almost correct. I
                    (7)     And how we had consuitant atter           (9)    A. Absolutely.                              mean, It (13) was uttered by Julius
                   consultant (e) come in to try increase the (io)            Q_ And you and Dr. Hausermann              Caesar. He wrote about It In (14) his
                   morale at Philip Morris (9) because these both enjoy in classic literature; is that                   memoirs.
                   kinds of things were happening to get             correct?                                             (15)    And If you read Julius Caesar,
                    ^10) people mad all the time.                     (12)    A. That's correct.                         you'll see (16) that, you know, the
                    (11)      So, I just felt that It was very f 12)  (13)    Q. And in the past from time to time Roman soldiers Invented dice. (17) And
                   unprofessional. This is not a reflection on you and (:4) Dr. Hausermann would                        when they wanted to make a decision, it
                  the (13) company, but a reflection on Mr.          communicate with each other in (15) Latin;         was very (ie) common to roll the dice.
                   Case, actually, (i-) because I don't think is that correct?                                           (19)     And if it came they came out an
                  that he carried this out in a (15) proper           (16)    A. We would use weil-known                odd number (20) theywouid do one
                   manner.                                           Latin sayings to (17) indicate something           thing. And if it came out an even (21)
                   (i 6)      Q. Well, if I understand it, Mr. Case  or another like, you know, out to (ie)'            number they would do another because
                  told (i`) you exactly what you wanted to           dinner, and I maybe one of the people              they believed (22) in the fates.
                  hear that you were (ie) terminated and that would drink a(i9) little bit too much and                  (23)     And on the occasion of crossing
                  they wanted to give you (i 9) severance?           they start saying things. (20) And the             the (24) Rubicon the story goes, Julius
                   (20)      MR. BROWN: Objection, asked and saying there is, in vino veritas. in wine                  Caesar rolled the (25) dice to have that
                  answered.                                           (21) there is truth. So, we had these             decision made for him whether or
                   (21)      THE WITNESS: The result of this is      things going back (22) and forth.
                  that (22) you're terminated and we're going         (23)    Q. Now, did Mr. Case seem to be                                 Page 274
                  to negotiate (23) severance. Mr. Case talks part of this (24) group that seemed to                     (1) not he should take his armyacross
                  about insubordination and <24) I was not           understand and communicate in (25) Latin           the Rubicon or (2) not
                  insubordinate.                                     back and forth?                                       3)    Q. Let me just ask the question
                   (25)      BY MR. WEBB:                                                                               again.
                                                                                           Page 272                      (4)     The phrase that you uttered to (5) Dr.
                                          Page 270                   in     A. The comment wasn't made to               Hausermann in Latin --
                   ('-)     Q. But you already told us that you      Mr. Case. And (z) I would doubt very                (6)     A. Correct.
                  thought (z) writing the letterwas going to get seriously whether Mr. Case (3)                          (7)     Q. -- is the same phrase that Julius
                  you terminated; c3) didn't you?                    understood Latin.                                  Caesar, (e) at least according to history,
                   (4       A. That's correct, but it's not (5)      (4)    Q. And, therefore, we know that             uttered as he crossed (9) the Rubicon river;
                  insubordination. It's a difference of              whatever you (5) turned to Dr. Hausermann is that correct?
                  opinion. If (c) you can't have an honest           and said you viewed that as (6) a                   (10)     A. That is correct.
                  difference of opinion that (>) might lead          communication between you and Dr.                   cii
                                                                                                                           in     Q. At least that's what classic
                  to your termination - do I have to -- (e)          Hausermann; is (7) that correct?                   literature (1-2) reports; is that correct, as
                  this is my exact point about Philip Morris. (s)           A. Yes. And translated the                  well as the Emperor (13) Caesar's
                   (5)      Is it the intent of Philip Morris that   statement was, (9) the fates have                  memoirs; is that correct?
                   (-c) every employee says and thinks               decided. Die alea jacta est, the die (lo) Is        (ra)     A. Well, wait a minute. I think it's
                  exactly what Philip (11) Morris wants              cast.                                              one In (ns) the same. I think the only
                  them to. And if they have a differing (12)                  Q. We're going to go through it.          record of that statement (i6) was
                  opinion, is that insubordination or are                    We know that you said something to penned by Julius Caesar.
                  their (13) employees allowed to be                 him in 813) Latin?                                  (17)     MR. WEBB: Didn't others actually--
                  independent scientists and (14) think on           (1a)     A. That's what I said.                     (re) strike that. It's not important. Strike
                  their own.                                         f15)     0. I'll spell this for the benefit of the that.
                   (15)      Q. But you thought writing a letter     (is) court reporter.                                c19i     MR. BROWN: I was wondering
                  would be (1e) a basis to terminate you, but          -i)    Can I spell this and tell me if I have it when you were (20) going to come to that
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                   esA                             In re: Comolex Asbestos Litigation              William Farone PhD - Vol I 10/4100                               xMAx 45145
                    conclusion.                                         interpreted it that way.                             (z    Obviously , you don't care what I said.
                    (21    THE WITNESS: Reference.                                                                           (3    BY MR. WEBB:
                    (22)   BY MR. WEBB:                                                       Page 277                       ca    Q. After Philip Morris terminated you
                      (23)     Q. Later reference, but Caesar           - And I've seen nothing from a declaration after csi this meeting on July 6, 1984, did
                     wrote it?                                         (2 ) by Dr. Hausermann that he                      you come to the (6) conclusion that Philip
                      (.4)     A, Caesar wrote it first.           ! m isinterpreted it. As a (3) matter of fact, he        Morris had acted properly in n terminating
                      (z<_)    Q. I acceptthat.                       di dn't.                                             you and that you did not have a valid (e)
                                                                       (4 )     I know that because in walking back        legal claim against Philip Morris?
                                           Page 275                  wi th (5) Dr. Hausermann who was the only              (y)    A. I don't understand the
                      t^_)   A. Thank you.                            ot her person in the (6) room who                    question.
                      ;z     Q. Here's my question, just so the       un derstood what I said, he knew that what I          (10)    Q. I'll repeat it again.
                     record is (3) complete.                           (7) was saying is, okay, the fates have              (11)    A. As a matter of fact, Just to
                      (4)    Julius Caesar, the phrase that you      decided. You (e) can't turn back from this.           give you an (12) example, I think as of
                     spoke (5) in Latin to Dr. Hausermann at the      I'm history. I'm gone. (9) Let's get it over         today I had a valid legal (13) complaint
                    time that you were (6) terminated is the         with,                                                 against Philip Morris,
                    same phrase Julius Caesar uttered (7)             (10)        So, that was the purpose. I was           (14)    So, I don't know when after, I may
                    when he crossed the Rubicon river to             letting cz:i Max know that I didn't hold this         have (15) gone back and forth in that. My
                    declare war an (e) the Romans?                -against Max (12) personally. That we can                interpretation of (16) the law which I'm
                     (9)    A. No. He was the Roman.                 continue to be friends. n31 That I still              entitled to make under that I have (17) to
                     (10)     Q. I know he was, butwhowas he         respected him.                                        make It as a citizen was that I had a valid
                    crossing the (11) river to declare war on?        (14)        I did not expect him to turn this memo (=e) complaint.
                     (12)     A. The pagans on the other side         (is over before we had a chance to talk to            (19)    What's not so clear to me is what
                    of the river, (13) not the Celts, the            it. He did ( z 6i that. I understood that he          we mean (20) by legal. Whether the
                    Germanic people, but not the (i4i               thought that that was (17) something that he administrative E.E.O.C. (21) complaint is
                    Romans.                                         had to do as a senior management (is) of               legal or not. I think I just got (22) through
                     ('-s)    Q. Right. I'm sorry. Julius Caesar     Philip Morris.                                        testifying that on July 6, 1984, I believed
                   was (i6) declaring war against, we'll call         (19         So, I was letting Max know and to this (23) a hundred percent that I was being
                   them the pagans, (i7) okay; is that correct? day (20) I feel very, very positive about Max             terminated (24) because of my wife's
                    (1e)      A. Not really because they were       Hausermann. (21 ; And I didn't want to do             compiaint.
                   all pagans at r.Q) that time. He was             anything that would (22) jeopardize his                (25)     Q. You believed that a hundred
                   declaring war against the (zo) Germanic          position.                                             percent?
                   hordes, if you will.                              (zs         Which by the way is why I did not put
                    (21)      Q. And the significance of the        in (24) this memo, for example, as you told                                Page 280
                   phrase -- (zz well, strike the question.         me, I went to (25) get a lawyer. I thought             r      Okay. I lost my mike.
                    (23)      Tell me if I'm right.                 about that when I put it in                            (2)    If I understand what you just said, (3)
                    (24)     When Caesar crossed the Rubicon                                                              Doctor, you believed on July 6, 1984, a
                   with this (25) army, he was actually violating                            Page 278                     hundred (4) percent that you were
                   a law that had been                               (i) there.                                           terminated and not given this (5) promotion
                                                                     (2)       I didn't want to jeopardize Max's (3)      because of discrimination because of your
                                          Page 276                 position. So, I like Max today. I consider him          (6) wife?
                    (1) passed that had forbid him from doing     to (4) be a fine gentleman, And Iwasjust                 (7)    MR. BROWN: You just distorted what
                   that; is that (2) correct?                      letting him (5) know, okay, I've been                  he (B) said substantially as the timing of
                    (3)     A. Yeah. He made the decision         shocked by this. Let's get it (6) over with.            when he believed (9) that has been twisted
                   based on (4) rolling this dice that that's       (i)       Q. You were shocked by this and             around and stated very (10) differently than
                   something that he (5) needed to do. He         let's it over (e) with, but didn't you want your what he just said.
                  wasn't authorized by the senate, (6) the        friend, (9) Dr. Hausermann, to know that                (11So, if you're going to ask him if he
                   Roman senate to go across the river. I         you were declar;ng war (xo) on Philip                  just (iz said something, please, try to be
                   believe (7) that's case.                       Morris?                                                 accurate.
                   ^ B)     Q. So, that's why today the phrase      r..i         MR. BROWN: Speculation,                  (13)     BY MR. WEBB:
                  crossing (9) the Rubicon, is a phrase that we argumentative.                                            c4 i     Q. Can you answer the question?
                  sometimes hear even (1o) today in every           (12)         BY MR. WEBB:                             (is)     MR. BROWN: Don't answer the
                  day language, meaning, to make a(ii)              n3           Q. I'm asking. If you didn't, you can    question. 116 Answer the question in which
                  decision from which there is no return; is that tell (14) me you didn't.                               he asks the proper (17) question and does
                   uz correct?                                      (15J        A. I didn't.                             not distort the evidence.
                   (13)      A. That is correct.                    (161        MR. WEBB: Fine.                           (ie)     Ask it properiy. It's about time that
                   (-4)      Q. And you agree, do you not.          (i7i        MR. BROWN: Speculation,                  you (19) started doing that.
                  Doctor, that cis uttering that Latin phrase in argumentative, (is) and the entire area has              (20)     MR. WEBB: I asked a proper
                  the middle of the (ie) termination meeting,     been covered to the point (19) where it's              question. I(21) think he was getting ready
                  that was your way of (i^) communicating to becoming disgusting and clearly harassing                   to say yes.
                  Philip Morris that if Philip Morris (ia)         (20and clearly of no relevance or                      (22)     MR. BROWN: Oh, you did?
                  terminated you, that Philip Morris would be at importance to this (21) lawsuit.                         (2.      Well, I'm going to tell you something.
                  the cq) point of no return; is that correct?    (2.2)         I mean, bias is one thing. Five hours     (za I'm beginning to believe that you're
                   c-<       MR. BROWN: Ambiguous, vague          of (z3) bias about one letter and one memo deliberately (25) distorting the evidence; is
                  and calls for (zi ^ speculation and it's        approaches (24) somewhere between                      that what you're doing?
                  argumentative,                                  major harassment and very (z5) unpleasant
                   (z'       THE WITNESS: Absolutely incorrect. harassment. So, it's in that area                                              Page 281
                  We (23) just got through talking that Mr.                                                               (i Because he just said to you, at the time
                  Case didn't know (24) Julius Caesarfrom                                    Page 279                       (2) believe. And you come right back and
                  Prince Machiavelli. So, he (25) couldn't have   (1 somewhere.                                          said, and you (3) believe that. Now that's a
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http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/tid/mxz75a00/pdf
                  esA                            In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation            William Farone, PhD - Voi. I       10/4/00                       aMAX(46146) .
                    very big difference.                               (s)    Q. And you don't remember whether          ;%) employees. I invited them to our
                     '<;   MR. WEBB: I asked him whether or          you (e) actually signed a formal document         estabiishment.I (e) treated them cordially. I
                    not he (s; believed it on July 6, 1984.           and whether (%) proceedings were started          met them atA.C.S. (9) meetings. We had
                     ; 6;  MR. BROWN: You forgot the July 6th         in front of the E.E.O.C.; (s) you just don't     good conversations. Sent them (io)
                   part.                                             rememberthat?                                     Christmas cards, received Christmas cards..
                     ;')  BY MR. WEBB:                                (9)     A. That's correct.                       Max (ii) Hausermann sent me a card after
                    (6)   Q. Dr. Farone, on July 6, 1984,             (10)     Q. In fact, what happened is that       the termination.
                   based on what (5) you just told me, you           you didn't (ii) file an E.E.O.C, complaint         (:z )    I don't have any problems with Philip
                   believe a hundred percent that (.o; Philip        and Philip Morris gave (iz) you severance          (13) Morris, other than professional conduct
                   Morris terminated you and did not promote         pay; is that correct?                             in (ia) statements that have been made by
                   you (ii to the job that they promised              (13)     A. That's correct.                      people working for (15) them which I would
                   because of (12) discriminatory conduct on          (14)     Q. And you thought Philip Morris        have had even if I didn't work (16) there. It's
                   their part regarding your (13) wife; is that      was fair to (15) you in the amount of             a matter of ethics.
                   correct?                                          severance compensation they (is) offered           (17)     BY MR. WEBB:
                    (zA)   A. Close, regarding my wife, but          you and gave you; is that correct?                 (ie)     Q. Well, at some pointin time after
                   as performed cis) on me. In other words,           (17)     A. That Is correct.                     your (19) termination did you actually find
                   using me to get rid of her.                        (ia)     Q. Infact, Philip Morris kept its -     anopportunityto (20) carry outwhatyou
                    (16)   Q. I understand. So, I said it           strike (19) the question.                         said in Latin and to declare war (21) on
                   correctly?                                         (20)     Philip Morris agreed to pay you and     Philip Morris?
                   (17)    A. Well, you said discriminatory         your (21) wife based on your careers at             (22)     MR. BROWN: Excuse me, but that
                  conduct on (le) the part of your wife. It's       Philip Morris a total (22) of $250,000; is that completely (23) distorts deliberately what
                  discriminatory conduct (19) on my part            correct?                                          he has testified to. (24) It's a compound
                  to alleviate the discriminatory conduct            (23)      A. Yes.                                question, You've thrown two things (zs) in
                   (20) on the part of my wife.                      (24)      Q. And not only did they agree to do there which have not been testified to.
                   (2i)    Q. I'll ask it again then to make sure   it, they (25) actuailywrote you a check and
                  that (22) we have it,                             paid you; is that                                                       Page 286
                   (23)    You believe a hundred percent on                                                            (1) Essentially, it is now clear to me that
                  Julyfi, (24) 1984, that when Philip Morris                              Page 284                     (z) you are willfully and deliberately
                  terminated you, it was (zs) because of             (1) correct?                                     distorting what (3) has been said in order to
                  discriminatory action against you because          (2)     A. Yes, about one year's                 gain whatever advantage (4) that you think
                                                                   severance for the (3) combined salaries           you will.
                                         Page 282                  which was at the time the going (4) rate            (5)     But I would suggest that you not
                      1) of things that were attributed to your    for people that were terminated in a               answer (6) that kind of question, but it's up
                  wife?                                            friendly (5) way.                                 to you.
                   (z)     A. That's correct.                       (6)      So, like Dr. Gannon who was              (7)      BY MR. WEBB:
                   (3)     Q. And you had told Philip Morris just terminated got (7) two years, probably              (8)      Q. Did you later find some
                  a week ca) earlier that you were going to file about the same amount. I think (e) that             opportunity to (9) declare war on Philip
                  orwere (s) preparing to file an E.E.O.C.         he got more. He got about $300,000.               Morris, sir?
                  compiaint -- strike (6) that.                     (9)      So, they gave me a fair package.         (io)      A. I have never declared war on
                   (7)     You told Philip Morris that you were    There's (10) no complaint about that. I           Philip (ii) Morris. My wife starts
                   ^°) getting ready to file a complaint against   had no reason to be (zz) upset with Philip collecting her pension (12) November of
                  them; is (5) that correct?                       Morris about the complaint, about (12)            this year. I expect to collect my (13)
                   (=11)     A. Right.                             the termination, no vindictiveness.               pension from Philip Morris.
                   (11)      Q. Which you've told us today was      (13)      This whole idea that somehow,           (t<)      I expect that Philip Morris will
                  actually an c12! E.E.O.C. complaint; is that     you know, (ia ) ten year's later that I'm -- I prosper (15) and grow if they put these
                  correct?                                         mean, you can assert (is) It, but it's Just       cases behind them. As a(1a) matter of
                   (--)      A. I've told it many times, but,      not the case.                                     fact, as of recently there Is very little
                  yes.                                              (16)      Q. Actually, you're the one who has     (17 , difference between Philip Morris'
                   c-a)      Q. Did you file this E.E.O.C.        told us (17) here today how you thought            positions and my (ie) positions.
                 complaint c=.) against Philip Morris --           about it over the years (.e) and you've now        (19)      Rather than declare war I think
                     -F)     A. I don't know.                     pieced together a completely (19) different        what has (20) happened Is that Philip
                     <^ )    Q. -- after they terminated you      personal view on what happened?                    Morris has come to the (zi) realization
                 based on this (ie) a hundred percent belief       (zo)       MR. BROWN: Misstates the record.       that the statements that I've been (22)
                 that you had?                                    He (21) didn't say that he thought about it        making are correct. And we find
                  (19)       MR. BROWN: Asked and answered. over the years, (22) but reading depositions             ourselves with (23) every one of these
                  (20)      THE WITNESS: I don't recall. I don't  in this litigation.                                cases to be In a littie bit more (24) In
                  (<.) know what the attorneys did. They           (23)       THE WITNESS: I did not give Philip     agreement.
                 negotiated the (22! settlement and that was      Morris (24) much thought from 1984 until the (25)             It's not war. It's a difference of
                 it.                                              end of 1993 when I(zs) was contacted by
                  (Z ^)      BY MR. WEBB:                         the Food and Drug Administration,                                        Page 287
                  (24)      Q. So, you don't know today                                                              (1) scientific opinion which isn't a war.
                 whether you, (25 Dr. Farone, actuallyfiied a                            Page 285                    It's very (2) professional. And I
                 formal action against                             (i) except for really being enamored with         responded to the Food and Drug (3)
                                                                  one piece of (z) technology that we                Administration as professionally as I
                                        Page 283                  developed while we were at Philip (3) Morris couid.
                  ^=' Philip Morris in front of the E.E.O.C.?     which I undertook to expand to be used for         (4)      I answer the questions as truthfully
                  ^'-%    A. That Is correct.                      (a) other types of pollution control because      as 1(5) can. And it is extremely
                  (3;      MR. BROWN: Asked and answered.         of my (s) interest in pollution control.           unfortunate that Philip (6) Morris has
                  ,•,      BY MR. WEBB:                                     I met with and talked with Philip Morris one or two employees that may have
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                  esA                           In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation           William Farone, PhD - Vol. 1         1014/00                        xM,v(47147)
                   done (') things that were bad, okay, but           (io)   Q_ Do you spend now approximately            copy, (:3 Mr. Brown, but maybe you can
                   that is not an (e) Indictment for the entire      10 to 15 ;--) percent of your working time           look over his shoulder (14) at this list. (.
                   company or the people who (9) work                being involved in (iz) lawsuits against Philip        (16)   (The document referred to was
                   there who I've testified on many                  Morris?                                              marked by (17) the C.S.R. as Defendants'
                   occasions had (10) high integrity, worked          ('3)   A. Yes, I do, notjust Philip Morris.         Exhibit 3 for in identification and attached
                   hard, developed good in technology.               As a(-4) matter of fact a lot of it Is not           to and made a(ie) part of this deposition.)
                   You know that from my prior testimony.            Philip Morris. (i5) There are suits that are          (20)
                     In     Q. Actually, Dr. Farone, as I'm          being conducted only (i6) against R.J.                (2i)   BY MR. WEBB:
                   asking you (13) questions, you may be right       Reynolds, only against Brown and (17)                 ,zz)   Q. And my question is that I've
                   there may not be that (14) much difference.       Williamson who I had no employment                   counted up (23) 26 cases in which you have
                   And I'm going to get to that in a(i5) minute,     relationship (le) whatsoever.                        been a witness in in (za cases against
                   okay, as far as what you really believe (16)       (19)   So, you need to understand that              Philip Morris and other tobacco (25)
                   about Philip Morris and those one or two          my Issue (20) Is not with Philip Morris, but         companies, but I could have made a
                   employees. (17) And I'll get to that in a         its with the tobacco (21) industry. As a
                                                                                                                          mistake,
                   minute.                                           matter of fact, I think I've done (22) more
                    (ie)    But my one question is, I take it that   cases that don't include Philip Morris                                    Page 292
                    (19) your answer is you did not make a           than 1(23) have that do Include Philip                (i) actually, it's 25 cases. I take that back.
                   decision to (20) declare war on Philip Morris;    Morris, but I'm not sure (24) of that. But a          (2)    And so -
                   is your answer?                                   good percentage of them do not (25)                   (3)    MR. BROWN: Are you going to make
                   (zi)    A. Absolutely. I'm not going to           Include Philip Morris as a Defendant.                it an (4) exhibit?
                   declare war (22) on somebody that has                                                                   (5)    MR. WEBB: I did. I marked it as an
                   billions of dollars to fight (23) back and I                           Page 290
                                                                                                                            6) exhibit.
                   don't have a-- no. It's crazy.                     (i)    Q. Well, actually, maybe we'll, in fact       n)     MR. BROWN: I'm sorry.
                   (24)    Q. Maybe you never decided to             - (z) well, let me ask, but you do spend 10           (e)    BY MR. WEBB:
                   declare war on (zs) Philip Morris, but would      to 15 percent (3) of your working time                (9)    Q. My question is, if you'd look at
                   you tell us since 1994,                           testifying against Philip (<) Morris and other       that and (io) tell me, did you actually give
                                                                     companies in the tobacco industry?                   testimony either by (ii) way of deposition
                                     Page 288                         (5)    A. Not testifying, in either                 or trial testimony under oath in (12) the last
                    (1) would you tell us how many lawyers have      discussing it (6) with attorneys or                  several years in 25 different cases against
                   you met with (z) who are involved in lawsuits     testifying.                                           (13) Philip Morris and other tobacco
                   against Philip Morris?                             (7)    Q. In fact, let's just talk about            companies?
                    (3     MR. BROWN: Would that include the         testifying.                                           (=4)    A. Not according to this list.
                   state, (4) include the F.D.A., would that          (e)    Prior to today have you actually              (15)    Q. Which cases did you not testify
                   include agencies, is (s) that what we're          provided (3) sworn testimony in lawsuits             in?
                   talking about?                                    against Philip Morris or in other tobacco             (16)    A. Well, If you look, for example,
                    (E)    THE WITNESS: I don't count them.          companies on 26 different and separate
                                                                                                                          the pages (17) aren't numbered, but if
                   It's (7) always the same information. It's the     (ii) occasions during the past four years?          you go to 19 and 20, for (ze) example, I
                   same science (a) stuff. It doesn't matter          (12)    A. I don't keep track of It. You            haven't checked the other ones, but 15)
                   whether it's one or a(9) hundred. Nothing is      probably (13) do. So, if that's a number             that's the same case.
                   different in what I'm talking in about with       that comes out of it, 1 (14) won't argue              (20)    Q. One is a deposition and one is a
                   these different attorneys.                        with it.                                             trial.
                   (:1)   BY MR. WEBB:                                (15)     Q. Well, does that seem about right         (21)    A. You asked me about cases,
                   (i2)     Q. Sir, have you actually met with       to you?                                              not depositions (zz) and trials
                   more than (13) a hundred lawyers in the last       (1a)    A. I have no idea.
                                                                                                                          separately.
                   six years who are (14) involved in litigation      (17)     MS. YAMATO: Excuse me, Counsel.             (23)    Q. I thought that I did, but I'll
                   against Philip Morris?                            It's the cIe end of the day. Can you give us         rephrase (24) the question. I want to make
                      in
                    (i=     A. Mostof them are for the               an estimate of how (19) much longer you              sure that there's no (25) confusion.
                   defense. So, the in answer is yes.                expect to go?
                    ^=%)    Q. And, I'm sorry, most of them are       (zo)     MR. WEBB: Yeah. Everyone here                                   Page 293
                   forthe (rE; defense?                              agreedto (:i) stop at6:00.                             i; I'm asking you whether you've testified
                    ( 14 9) A. Yeah. Every time that I go Into        (22)     MS. YAMATO: Okay, sorry. We                 (2) against Philip Morris and/or other
                   one of (20) these things, there's a room          didn't hear (23) that.                                                        -
                                                                                                                          tobacco companies (' ) in sworn testimony
                   full of defense (21) attorneys and there's         (25)     MR. WEBB' I'm sorry. We're going           either in a deposition or trial (4 ) testimony
                   only one or two Plaintiff's (22) attorneys.       to stop (_e; at 6:00 which is about 40               on 25 occasions?
                   So, I've met far more defense attorneys           minutes from now.                                     (5)    MR. BROWN: So, if he testified in
                    (23) than I have Plalntiff's attorneys.                                                                (6) deposition and at trial in a case that's
                    (25)    Q. I think maybe you didn't hear my                           Page 291
                                                                                                                          twice.
                   whole (z^ question.                               (^)     MS. YAMATO: Okay, thank you. (2)              (7)    MR. WEBB: That's two different
                                                                      (3)    (Discussion held off the record.) (4)        sworn (e) testimonies, yes.
                                     Page 289
                                                                      (5)    MR. WEBB: Dr. Farone, I tried to put          (9)    MR. BROWN: Okay.
                    (1) I'm asking how many lawyers have you          (6) together a list of cases that I will tell you    (i o)    THE WITNESS: What's the number
                   met (2) with who actually are involved in                                                              thatyou (ii) have?
                                                                     that (7) I've done the best that I can to try to
                   lawsuits against ;3) Philip Morris?                                                                     (12)     BY MR. WEBB:
                                                                     set forth (6) cases that I believe that you've
                           That was my question.                                                                           (i3)     Q. I believe that it's 25.
                                                                     been a witness in, (9) but by showing it to
                           A. Oh, okay.                                                                                    (14)     A. I can't recall any that aren't on
                                                                     you, you can teii me if I've (io) made a
                           Q. Just so that you understand.           mistake. Okay.                                       the (15) list.
                           A. Okay.                                   ;a)                                                  (i 6)    Q. And did you testify and give
                                                                              I'll mark this as Defendants' Exhibit 3
                           Q. Is it over a hundred?                   (12) for identification. I only have one other      sworn (r%) testimony on each of these 25
                           A. I doubt it, but I don't keep track.
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                  ssA                             In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation            William Parone, PhD - Vol. I         10/4/00                        XMAX(48I48)
                    occasions that is :=5; listed on this list?         its manufacturing, r25! etcetera; is that             safer l5 ; cigarettes; is that correct?
                    (1 -5)  A. As far as I recall, yes.                 correct?                                               (6)   A. That is correct.
                     zo     Q. Okay. Now, I take it the fact that           ^<`)     A. That's correct.                        (7)   Q. In fact, that's one of the reasons
                   you iei; provided testimony against Philip                                                                why you (e) agreed to go to Philip Morris
                   Morris and other (22) tobacco companies                                       Page 296                     and work on safer l9t cigarettes is because
                   on 25 separate occasions, you (23) don't                 (i)    Q. And after one year with the            you felt Philip Morris had (io) worked very
                   consider that declaring war; is that correct?          company in (2) 1977 you were promoted to            hard in the years proceeding your (ii)
                     24 ^   MR. BROWN: Are you suggesting                 the position of director (3) of applied             employment; is that fair to say?
                   that an (25) expert witness is declaring war;          research within the research and (4)                 (12)   A. That was my Impression in
                   is that your                                           development department; is that correct?            1976; that's (13) correct.
                                                                           (5)     A. That is correct.                         (14)   Q. Now, for example, and you've
                                       Page 294                            (e)     Q. And you continued to serve in that talked about (is) this a little bit here today,
                     '-) suggestion? That's amazing. Go ahead              l' ) position for the next seven years until the when you started at (16) Philip Morris, you
                   and answer (2) that question. That's                    (e) termination we just talked about in July      were very much aware that Philip (17)
                   astonishing.                                           of 1984; is (9) that correct?                       Morris had spent years and an enormous
                    (3)    THE WITNESS: I don't consider it (4)            (10)      A. That is correct.                     amount of (ie) money and effort to develop
                   declaring war. I consider it an attempt to              (ii)      Q. Now, in the testimony that you       lower tar and nicotine (19) cigarettes; is that
                   reduce (s) the number of deaths from                   gave this (12) morning when Mr. Brown was correct?
                   400,000 per year from (6) smoking related              asking you questions and (13) in some of            (20)    A. They had spent years
                   disease to some lower number, let's (7)                your answers that you've given me here             developing iowertar (zi) cigarettes.
                   say, 200,000 or 100,000.                                (14) this afternoon, you're critical of Philip    Whether It's an enormous amount of
                    (e)    So, the way that I look at it I'm helping      Morris (=5) regarding its efforts to develop        (zz) money Is relative.
                   (5) the public. That's why I didn't take any          safer products; is (:s) that.fair to say?            (23)    Q. Well, I think this morning,
                   money for (io) doing this for the first six             (17)      A. I'm critical of Philip Morris for    actually in (24) response to Mr. Brown, he
                  years that we did it.                                  not (le) Implementing technology that               asked you whether it could (25) be billions;
                   (i 1)    And I think it's a very important point      would have resulted in (19) safer                   is that correct?
                  to c:2) remove from the market a product               products, yes, and not testing those
                  that kills 400,000 (i3) people a year by               products. (20) There's a difference.                                    Page 299
                  making it acceptable.                                   (21)       Q. Let's talk about that.                (1)    MR. BROWN: The billions wasn't
                   (14)     Not by punishing Philip Morris, taking        (22)      You told us a moment ago that, a         aimed at (z) what you just said. Itwas
                   (:5 ) away all of their business, but by              company (23) can have thousands of                  aimed at -
                  making it (iE) acceptable. And that's my               employees and can make (24) decisions               l9      BY MR. WEBB:
                  motivation for doing in this.                          and reasonable people can disagree; is              (4)     Q. I'm sorry. That's fair.
                   (1e)     Now, I don't consider that war. I (19)        (25) that right?                                   (5)    At least you testified this morning as
                  consider that an ethical response to the                                                                  far (6) as the industry as a whole, you
                  knowledge I (20) have about making                                            Page 297                    believe that the (7) industry has spent in the
                  cigarettes. And so I'm just doing (21)                  (1)    A. That's correct.                         billions of dollars in (e) trying to develop
                  something for which I'm qualified that in my            (2)     0. And the simple truth is that, first of safer products; is that what you (9) said this
                  opinion (zz) needs to be done for the public            (3) all, let's start at the beginning.             morning?
                  good.                                                   (4)     It was Philip Morris' decision to hire     (io)     A. Yes, but the amount that's
                  (z3)      MR. BARRON: Move to strike the               you (5) for the primary purpose of having          spent Is not -(1i) you have to look at
                  answer as (24) non-responsive. It could                you work on (6) developing safer cigarette         that relative to how much money (12) is
                  have been answered "yes" (25) or "no".                 products; is that (7) correct?                     brought In in revenue, the percentage of.
                                                                          (e(    A. That's correct.                          (13)     The tobacco company spends
                                      Page 295                            (°)    Q. No doubt in your mind about that; one of the ( i4) smallest percentages of
                          MR. BROWN: That's hardly a grounds             is (io) there?                                     revenue on R & D of any (15) company.
                  to lz) strike, but go ahead, (3)                       (il)       A. No doubt whatsoever.                 That's very well known.
                   <i     (Discussion held off the record.) (s           (12)       Q. And so the very thing that you        (i 6)    So, yes, It's a large doliar amount,
                   E)    BY MR. WEBB:                                    now (i3) criticize Philip Morris for not doing,    but l=7) it's a very small percentage
                         Q. Your testimony is that you don't            they actually (14) hired you to do?                 amount. And a billion (ie) dollars for
                  believe (s) by testifying against Philip Morris        (15)       A. I don't see the connection, but Philip Morris, if you raise the price of
                  and other c9) tobacco companies in the last            yes, I'll (1e) agree with that.                     (19) a pack of cigarettes 20 cents, you
                  few years on 25 eio) separate occasions,               (•%)       Q. Well, you're not-- in fact you       can make it back (20) In three months.
                  you don't consider that (li) declaring war; is        were (ie) convinced when you started at              (21)     So, let's not try to make a big deal
                  that your testimony?                                   Philip Morris that (19) Philip Morris was          out (22) of a billion dollars.
                   (-2)   A. That's my testimony.                       sincere in hiring you and have you (20) help         (23)     Q. Well, actually let me just say.
                   (i ^'  Q. Now, let's talk about Philip               them develop safer products; is that fair to        Actually, (24) it was billions.
                                                                         (zi) say?                                           (zs)     How many billions do you think that
                  Morris and 15) what you said about Philip
                                                                         (22)      A. I would not have taken the job        the
                  Morris and your career at (15) Philip Morris.
                   (is)   I understand what you told us this            otherwise; (23) that's correct.
                                                                         (24)      Q. You believe that; is that correct?                         Page 300
                  morning c_7; during your first year at Philip
                                                                         (25)      A. That's correct.                        (i) industry spent since 1955 on trying to
                  Morris you were, I(ie) don't want to, is it an
                  associate or assistant (19) research                                                                      develop safer (z) products by making
                                                                                                Page 298                    cigarette design changes?
                  scientist?
                  (20)    A. Associate principle scientist.            1 (1)     Q- And atthe time you began to work (3)            MR. BROWN: Now you're just talking
                          Q, And you told us that you spent             at (z) Philip Morris in 1976, you were aware        about (4) spent on trying to develop safer
                    :z) approximately one year learning about           that Philip (3) Morris had already been             products. And keep (5) in mind my question
                  Philip Morris, ;23^ its research, its business,       working for years prior to (4) 1976 to              was all of the work that was (®) done to
                                                                       1 develop techniques and methods to make             design cigarettes, period, safer or not (7)
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                  BSA                           In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation          William Farone, Phb - Vol. I        1014/00                        XMAX(49149
                   safer,                                           it at (13' apprcximately 80 percent; is that         (1 6   A. Yes.
                   (e)    BY MR. WEBB:                              fair to say?                                         (17)   Q. And it's your opinion they
                     G!   Q. Actually, Dr. Farone, in response       (14)    A. That's fair to say.                     weren't goofing (1e: off or just marking
                   to (1o; Mr. Brown's question, do you agree        (15)    Q. And when you started in your            time, they were working on safer ry^
                   that the primary c::` changes that tobacco       position as (16) the director of applied            cigarette products; is that fair?
                   companies have made in (12) cigarette            research with the primary (17) mission being         (20)   A. Most of them were. There are
                   design over the last many years at least         to develop a safer cigarette product, (.e)          always (21) exceptions to every rule,
                    c:5; have been directed at trying to make       there were about 40 people employed in              but, yes, I can agree that (22) pretty
                   the product (14) safer?                          your group; (19) is that correct?                   much they worked very hard.
                    (.-)   A. No.                                    (20)    A. That's correct.                          (23)   Q. And am I correct as far as Philip
                    (i 6)  Q. Do you think that most of them         (21)    Q_ And over the next seven years           Morris' (24) effort to develop safer cigarette
                   have been (17) to make it unsafe?                that you 11) spent at the company in the            products, beyond (25) the 250 people
                    (1e)   A. No, I didn't say that. But I think    position of director of (23) applied research,      assigned to your group, there were a
                   that ;19) many of the changes have been          that number increased (24) significantly; is
                                                                                                                                             Page 305
                   made to save money. (zo) And In the              that correct?
                   process of making money could make It             (25)    A. That is correct.                         (1) large number of other Philip Morris
                    (21) safer, they certainly would do It.                                                             employees and (z) some of the other
                    (22)                                                                   Page 303                     research and development (3) directorates
                           But I think that In general and I've
                    (23) testified to this, that many of the           (1)     Q. And, in fact, if we look at seven     that also spent time working on what (4)
                   changes that (24) could have been made,            years (z) later, when you actually left, were     would be called safer cigarette projects; is
                   were not made simply because (z5) it               terminated from (3) the company, your             that (s) correct?
                   would cost money.                                   group had grown from 40 people to (4)             (6)    A. That Is correct.
                                                                       approximately 250 people assigned to your         (7)    Q. And, in fact, when you left Philip
                                        Page 301                       group with (5) the primary purpose of            Morris (e) in 1084, Philip Morris had
                    (1)     Q. Well, let me ask you this because developing safer cigarette (6) products; is            approximately 600 people (9) assigned to
                   I think (z) that you've said this in the past.     that correct?                                     the research and development department;
                    (3)     Do you agree that at the time that you     (7)    A. That is correct.                        (io) is that correct?
                    (4) started in 1976 that it was your personal (8)          Q. And most of those 250 -- strike        (1i)     A. I believe that's accurate, yes.
                   belief (5 ) based on what you knew that            the (9) question.                                  (12)     Q, And a large number of them
                   Philip Morris had (6) already taken                 (10)     One reason why you had to spend 20      were skilled (13) and talented research
                   significant steps in the right (7) direction        percent (li) of your time on some other          scientists; is that fair to (14) say?
                   towards making a less hazardous cigarette;          matters is that you did (12) have                 (i5)     A. Yes.
                    (e) is that your opinion?                          administrative and management                     (16)     Q_ Now, and while I know that
                    (9)    A. That was my opinion in 1976;             responsibilities; (13) is that correct, beyond   you've offered (17) criticisms here today of
                   that's (lo) correct.                                doing safer cigarettes?                          some of the safer cigarette (1e) projects,
                    (11)     Q. And you actuallywere told that          (la)    A. That wasn't the reason, no.          the fact is if you just sit back for a(:y)
                   as the (12) director of applied research that       (15)     Q. Then strike the question.            minute and take a total look at the totality of
                   Philip Morris (13) actually wanted your             (16)     You had other things to work on         what (20) happened while you were
                   primary mission to be to work (14) on               beyond (11) safer cigarettes for 20 percent      working there running that (2 1) group of
                   developing safer cigarettes; is that correct?       of your time; is (1e) that fair to say?          people, you're actually proud of the work
                    r_5)     A. That is correct.                        (19)    A. Yes.                                  (22) that you did and you're proud of the
                    (16)     Q. And as you started your job, that (zo)          Q. Many of these 250 employees          work that those (23) employees did on
                   was (17) actually an objective and a mission that worked in (21) your group, they spent a            safer cigarette projects; is that (2 4)
                   that you (le) believed in; is that correct?         hundred percent of their (zz) time on safer      correct?
                    (=9)     A. That's correct.                        cigarette projects; is that correct?              (25)     A. Well, it'sa bitconfusing
                    (20)     Q. And you also were convinced             (z3)    A. Estimated to be about 60 to 7S       because you
                   that that also (2l) was Philip Morris' mission; percent of (24) them, yes.
                                                                                                                                             Page 306
                   is that correct?                                     czs;    Q. So, there's no question in your
                    (zz)     A. I've stated that many times,           mind that                                         (1) started off with a statement that I
                   Yes, I (23) agree.                                                                                   offered (z) criticisms of safer cigarette
                    (24)     Q. And by the way, you're not aware                           Page 304                     projects. And I don't (3) think that I ever
                   of any (25) government agency or anyone               1) at least during the years that you worked   did that.
                   else forcing Philip                                 at Philip (2) Morris, Philip Morris paid the      (4)    Q. I'll strike that.
                                                                       salaries and (3) compensated 250                  (5)    Whatever your testimony is, you've
                                        Page 302                       employees, including skilled (4) scientists       (6) testified about safer -- strike the
                    (1) Morris to hire you to bring your               like yourself to devote large portions of (s)    question.
                   knowledge, (z training, experience, and             their working time to develop safer cigarette     p)     You have given some testimony
                   intelligence to come to (3) Philip Morris to         (6) products?                                   today about ^e) things that happened with
                   deal with this problem; no one (4) forced            (7)    A. That they did.                        safer cigarette projects (9) at Philip Morris
                   them to do that; did they?                           (a)    Q, And you were the supervisor of        that you did not agree with?
                    (`)     A. Not to my knowiedge.                    those 250 (9) people during that seven year       (10)    A. Let's see if I can help.
                    (Z)     Q. And if you look back on your            time period; is that (.o) correct?                (11)    The way that I understand what I
                   seven years (7) as the director of applied            :1)    A. No. We discussed it. It started      tried to (!z) get across, and I may have
                   research at Philip (e) Morris, you actually         off as 12) 40 and then it grew over the          done it badly. The list (13) of
                   spent a large percentage of (y) your time           time.                                            technologies --
                   working on safer cigarette projects; is (1o)                 Q. I'm sorry. You're correct.            (ie)     MR. BARRON: I'd object. I'd like a
                   that correct?                                                Whatever the number of people was        c15) question and answer. I'm not sure what
                    (: `     A. That is correct.                       at any (is) given time, you supervised them;     the witness (16) is going to response.
                     12)     Q. In fact, I believe you've estimated ; is that correct?                                   (17)    THE WITNESS: I'm trying to
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                  BSA                                  In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation              William Farone, PhD - Vol. I       1014/00                       XMAX(50150)
                       understand his '.'; question.                          (25)    Q. In fact, you and some of the            (4) Unfortunately, I can't answer "yes" or
                        'is      MR. BROWN: Go ahead and answer scientists                                                       'no", but I(5 ) can explain why that's the
                      just the 2r) way you were, please.                                                                        case.
                        (2=)     THE WITNESS: No, I mean, the way                                  Page 309
                                                                                                                                  6)    BY MR. WEBB:
                      that I c-z; understand it, the technologies            (1) who worked with you were so proud of
                                                                                                                                  ^)    Q. Go ahead. Well, do you believe it
                      that I talked about (23) today were                   some of the (2) work that you did on Philip         and (e) then you can explain.
                      developed, many of them were developed at Morris safer cigarette (3) projects that there                   (9)    Do you believe it?
                       ;24; Philip Morris. And that's how I became          are published scientific ca) articles; is that       (10)    A. Well, It didn't actually serve
                      acquainted (zs) with them because my                  correct, about the work that was (5) done           because a (1i) lot of It wasn't used. But
                      people at Philip Morris worked                       while you were there?                                if, in fact, the (12) technoiogy that was
                                                                             (6)     A. That's correct.                         developed had been putintouse 113) all
                                           Page 307                          P)      Q. There are quite of few of them, in      of It, then we would have reduced the
                       cl) on those projects.                              fact; (e) isn'tthere?                                number of (14) deaths associated with
                       (2)     And I wasn't criticizing those projects.     (9)      A. Yes.                                    smoking which would have (15) served
                       ( 3 ) I was saying that these are the things         (lo)      Q. And that's because as a scientist
                                                                                                                                the medical and public community.
                     that should (4) be done to make a safer               you and (11) Philip Morris in agreement              (16)     So, the work itself had the effect
                     cigarette.                                            wanted the scientific (12) world want to            that It (17) could have served the
                      (5)      So, the people worked on them. And I know what you were accomplishing in (13)                    medical and scientific, all of (te) those
                      (6) don't have any problem with the work             the way of safer cigarette activities; is that      things that you said.
                     that they did, (7) So, I'm not quite sure --           (14) correct?
                                                                                                                                (19)     I'm not sure that there Is any
                      (e)      BY MR. WEBB:                                 (15)      A. All kinds of cigarette activities, evidence (zo) that it actually did, but it
                      (9)     Q. Well, letme --whatevertestimony yes, (1s) cigarettes safer and regular.                       could have. So, it (21) depends on how
                    that (lo) you've given today is in the record          (17)       Q. In fact, maybe most important as you Interpret the context of which (22)
                    about what you (11) believe about Philip              you kind (18) of look back over the totality of you make that.
                    Morris; is that correct?                              the work that you (19) did and the people             (23)     There's certainly nothing wrong
                     (12)       A. Correct.                               that worked for you did, you (20) actually           with the (24) work. And certainly our
                     '=3)       Q. But if you sit back and look at        believed that work on safer cigarette (21)           effort was to serve that (25) community.
                    the (14) totality of things that happened             products during the time that you were there
                    during your seven (ls) years as the director was (22) actually done in the best interests                                       Page 312
                    of applied research, the truth (:e) is you are of the smokers (23) who consumed Philip                     (i)     Q. Well, let me ask you this.
                   proud of the work that you did there; is (17)          Morris cigarettes; is that (24) correct?             (2)     Do you actually think that the work
                   that correct?                                           (25)      A. The work that we did was              that (3) you did at Philip Morris and people
                    (ie)       A. That Is correct.                      i done in the                                         working under (a) your direction and
                    (=y)       Q. And you are actually proud of the i                                                         guidance, do you actuafiythink (5) that it
                  work (20) that these other employees did                                       Page 310                     actually influenced the entire tobacco (s)
                  working on safer (21) cigarette projects; is             (1) Interests of the smoker, yes.                  industry to have safer products?
                  that correct?                                           (2)       Q. In fact, if I understand it, you 13)    (7)     A. As I Just got through testifying,
                    (22)       A. That's correct.                        are actually -- one project that you're actually that's (s) why I'm still doing that work
                    (23)       Q. You believe that you did a good         (4) proud of is continuing the efforts of Philip right now today.
                  job; is (24) that correct?                             Morris (5) to produce lower tar and nicotine          (9)     Q. I'm talking about -- I'm not talking
                    (2 5)      A. I believe that and I think my          cigarettes; is (e) that correct?                     about (to) today. I'm talking about when
                                                                          ) 7)     A. Yes.                                   you left the company (il) in 1984, did you
                                          Page 308                        (8)       Q. And, in fact, you not only -- you     believe that the work you had (12) already
                    r: recommendations and my appraisals actually (s) believe that work on safer
                                                                                                                             done on safer cigarette projects by the time
                  said the same (2) thing. I felt good about cigarette projects, not (lo) only actually                       (13) that you left actually influenced the
                  it. They felt good about (3) it.                      served the best interests of the (11) medical entire (14) industry to have safer products?
                   (<)       Q. And you believe that the                 and scientific communities, also; don't you?         (15)      A. At that time the major tenent
                  employees who c'-) were working on these                (12)       MR. BROWN: The interests?               of that (1e) belief was that lower tar
                  safer cigarette projects also (a) did a good           f13)        MR. WEBB: Yes.                          products would have a(17) reduction in
                 job; is that correct?                                   (14 )       MR. BROWN: I'll find that ambiguous carcinogenicity.
                   (%%       A. Again, for the most part.               and (15) vague. I'll object to that.                  (ie)      Q. So, you did believe that?
                   ^B)       Q. Occasionally, I suppose out of           (16)        MR. WEBB: I'm sorry. Did you say         (19)      A. Yeah. I believed that it should
                  250 people c5) you'll occasionally will have a object? W) I didn't hear it.                                have. I^-,o) mean, the hypothesis was
                  bad employee; is (io) that fair to say?                (ls)        MR. BROWN: Object, ambiguous            that it should have. So, I(21) befieve
                  !i1)         A. That's fair to say.                   and vague as (19) to what's their interests if that, but unfortunately, as I've testified
                  (12)         Q. But l take it you tried to do a       it's not saving lives.                                (22) on many occasions, there was no
                 good job (13) of hiring good people?                    (20)        BY MR. WEBB:                            evidence as to prove (23) that
                  (14)        A. Absolutely.                             (zl)       Q. Do you believe that the work--        hypothesis.
                  (F`-        Q. Were you successful in doing           let me (22) rephrase it.                             (24)       So, the belief was that it should
                 that by in (_ 6) large?                                 (23)       Do you believe that the work that you have, (25) but the attempts that I made
                  (.7)        A. Byinlarge.                             and (24) people that worked for you at Philip to try to get some
                  (19)        Q. Now, in fact, as you look back         Morris did on (25) safer cigarette projects
                 over the ue work that you and your people              actually served the                                                        Page 313
                 did on safer cigarette (20) projects while you                                                              (1) evidence to support that hypothesis
                 were at Philip Morris, it's (2-) actualiyyour                                  Page 311                     went undone.
                 kind of overall opinion that the work (22 that (1) interests of the medical and scientific                  (2)      So, the belief, you know, in other
                 you did was worthwhile and meaningful; is              communities?                                         words, (3) if you're asking about my
                 that ;.:: also correct?                                (2)        MR. BROWN: Same objection.                belief, yes. If you're (4) asking about
                  ;-^         A. That is correct.                       (3)        THE WITNESS: It's nota problem.          whether It did or not, no.
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                  BSA                             In re: Complex Asbestos Litigation         William Farone, PhD - Vol. 1   10/4/00               XMAx(a1151)
                    (})    Q. I'll stick when you left Philip Morris   for people who were smoking Philip Morris
                   in c 6) 1984, was it your belief that the work       (io) cigarettes; is that correct?
                   that you had (") done on safer cigarette             (i.;   A. That is the hypothesis that
                   projects, including the work (e) done by            was on the ('-2) table at that time; yes.
                   people working under your direction had (9)          (13)   Q. That's what you believed; is that
                   influenced the entire industry to have safer        correct?
                    (-) products?                                       ^i4)   A. No. It's like the "yes" and "no"
                    ci.)    A. That was my belief.                     thing. (-51 In the scientific context you
                    ('_2)   Q. That was your belief?                   have a hypothesis. (16) And it's either
                      ==1   A. Yes.                                    denied, in which case you have to in
                       <)   Q. And that belief was primarily           change it or it's not denied, in which case
                   based on r.F) developing cigarettes with            it (16) becomes a theory and then a law.
                   lower tar and nicotine?                              (19)   So, if you want to call It a belief,
                    (i 6)   A. No. It was the combination of           but (20) beiief I usually reserve for
                  all the (17 things that I talked about, the          religious or other (211 purposes.
                   better filters, the (18) reduction In                (22)   So, it was my hypothesis. It was a
                  nitrates, the better methods of curing,               (23) conclusion that I had reached.
                   (19) all of those things.                           (24)    Q. Fine. I'm nottryingto be a(2s1
                   (20)    Q. But don't all of those basically         non-scientist.
                   (21) ultimately result in lowering tar and
                  nicotine in (22) one fashion or another?                            Page 316
                   (23)    A. No. Some of them do. Some             (1) Is an hypothesis a scientific belief that
                  of them change (24) the carcinogens              (2) exists at a time?
                  that come out of the cigarette. And (2s)         (3)     A. Well, Ijust wanted to be
                  they did influence the industry because a       specific because (4) a hypothesis has a
                  lot of                                          specific meaning about how it's (5)
                                                                  supposed to be tested.
                                       Page 314                    c6)     So, you can have a hypothesis
                   (1) that research that we did at that time I because (7) there's no evidence to the
                   keep (2) reading about in the papers.          contrary without it being (e) a belief. A
                   (3)    It has all been re-discovered, you      belief is something in my opinion that (9)
                   know. (4) Star has a curing thing. And         you can hoid without having any support
                   Reynolds has a curing (s) thing. And we        for it.
                  had one back in'78 and'79.                         in     Q. Okay. But the simple truth then, if
                   c 6)   So, a lot of that work that we did I    I(ii) understand what you just told me, is
                  think (7) did influence the Industry. And It that overall (12) you're proud of the work
                  will continue to (s) influence the industry. that you did at Philip (13) Morris in safer
                   ( ^1   Q. And as you kind of evaluate the      cigarette products; is that correct?
                      ol accomplishments and achievements on (14)           A. That's correct.
                  safer cigarette ;ii; products that took place (i s)       MR. WEBB: You know what, it's ten
                  while you were at Philip (12) Morris, when      to six (!o and this is a good time to break.
                  you left Philip Morris, you believed at (13)    I'm moving into a(i7) newtopic.
                  that time that Philip Morris was still working   (ie)     MR. BROWN: Go off the record.
                  in a(i4) dedicated fashion in developing         (19)     THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off
                  safer products when (is) you left, is that      the record at (20) 5:47 p.m.
                  correct?                                         (21)     (Deposition concluded at 5:47 p.m.)
                    -E1     A. On July 6, 1984, yes.               (22) (23) (24)
                    -1      Q. And, well actually, even after you
                  were r.9) gone, I know that you don't have       (25)     SIGNATURE OF WITNESS
                  -- after you left (=9) you don't have any
                  personal knowledge of the events (20) that
                  occurred at Philip Morris, but you have (21)
                  reviewed documents; is that correct?
                   ^:2)    A. That's correct.
                   (23)     Q. And I'm not asking you, I know
                  that you (Z4 ) didn't personally, you weren't
                  there and you didn't (25) see and you didn't
                  participate, but you've seen

                                     Page 315
                      documents since you left Philip Morris
                 that tell you (21 that Philip Morris has made
                 continuing efforts o) towards developing a
                 less hazardous cigarette; is (5) that correct?
                        A. That Is correct.
                  ^      Q. And at the time that you left the
                 company !'1 in July of 1984, you actually
                 believed that Philip (e) Morris was doing
                 good things that would produce (9) benefits
                 Tooker & Antz                                                       (415) 512-0295                                   Page 313 to Page 316




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