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					       Effective Online Business:
       Hosting, Marketing, and Management
       Workshop #I - Introduction


Kelly Burke – University of Hawaii at Hilo
Steven Parente – Aina Hawaiian Tropical Products

Supported by a USDA Cooperative State Research, Education and
Extension Service Grant through the University of Hawaii at Hilo and
College of Business and Economics Dean Dr. Marcia Sakai
Ecommerce and the Internet:
Introduction to Online Retail Overview
   The business case for e-commerce
       What is e-commerce?
       Benefits
       Some issues and options
   The Internet – how it works
   Website hosting basics
       Alternatives, costs, services provided
   Website development and design basics
       Using a web host’s tools and resources
   Website management basics
       Assessing site performance
       Payment processing
       Order processing and fulfillment
         A WEB SITE
E-Commerce Defined

   E-Commerce
       “Buying, selling, or exchanging products, services,
        and information via computer networks.” (Turban,
        King, Lee and Viehland – 2004)
   But that’s ‘narrow’
   Internet offers more – E-Business includes
       Servicing customers
       Collaborating with business partners
       Supporting electronic transactions within the firm
   We mean the ‘broader’ definition here
E-Commerce Business Models

   There are 2 that are most prominent
   Business to Business (B2B)
       Selling products and services to customers who are
        primarily other businesses
   Business to Consumer (B2C)
       Sells products and services to individuals
   B2B is where most of the money is
       About 97%
   B2C is the most well-known
       Amazon, eBay, etc.

Forces Driving Online B2C Shopping

   Convenience – 75%
   Cost – 38%
   Context
       Opportunity to buy at right time and right place
       For example: from my desk when I am thinking about –
        or reminded about – that book.

                    * Dataquest, 2000
The Typical Online Customer
   Activity conducted online by % of Internet users
       Research a product before buying – 78%
       Buy a product – 67%
       Use a search engine – 84%

                                             Source: Pew/ - 2005
The Typical Online Customer

   Percent of each group that browse online
   Age:
       18-29 – 64%
       30-49 – 56%
       50-64 – 36%
       65+ – 12%
       Male – 69%
       Female – 67%
   Income
       Less than $30,000/yr – 49%
       $30,000-$50,000 – 73%
       $50,000-$75,000 – 87%
       More than $75,000 – 93%

                                     Source: Pew/ - 2005
                     The Typical Online Customer

                         Completed online transactions: 10
                         Online sessions per week: 6
                         Unique sites visited per week: 6
                         Average surfing session: 31 minutes
                         Time per site per week: 32 minutes
                         Time online per week: 3 hours, 8 minutes

Source: Harris Interactive, Nielson Netratings
Why Have a Web Site:
Benefits of E-Commerce
   Increase sales
       Distributed market exposure
       Target narrow segments
       Create virtual communities which become targets
   Reduce costs
       Sales inquiries
       Price quotes
       Product availability
   Enhance product value
   Benefits work both ways – selling or buying

   But are these reason enough for YOU to own a
    web site?
Why Have a Web Site:
Benefits of E-Commerce

   Well – of course – a not insignificant reason to
    own a web site may be that:

   Your competitors are doing it

   In our survey of Big Island Flower Growers
    (mostly small mom-and-pop businesses), 40%
    of those responding (29 out of 74) say they
    already have a web site

   Also – it’s just not that hard or costly to do
How the Web Works:
Uniform Resource Locators

   Browsers differ in the way they are programmed
   So if WWW is to be useful to many – we need
    standard way to identify a resource
   Example:
   URLs specify:
       communication method (protocol) – ex: http
       host name – ex:
       connection ‘port’ on host – ex: 2074
       path on web server to resource / page – ex:
How the Web Works:
The Internet Protocol (IP)

   TCP / IP protocol for communicating
   IP addressing – every device on the Internet has
    a different IP address
   Network Information Center allocates address
       Class    Address     Network part   Host part
         A       18         155.32.5
         B   128.171       12.237
         C    1   192.66.12        56
How the Web Works:
IP Addresses and Domain Names
   IP addresses are unfriendly
   Assign a human readable name to IP addresses
   Placed in a distributed, hierarchical, lookup system
   In network of thousands of domain name severs (DNS)
   Which map domain names to IP addresses
   For example: =

          Domain                  Top Level Domain
    Organization Name            Organization Type
        uhh.hawaii                       .edu
         How the Web Works:
         Protocols and Infrastructure

            Messages versus Packets
                i.e., connection vs. connectionless

Web Server                                             This Machine

  HTTP               Message (example: Page)              HTTP

   TCP           Packet 3     Packet 2     Packet 1       TCP

    IP            Packet       Packet       Packet         IP
                  Web Server      Static

   Pages        Commerce Server
   Pages                          Dynamic

Product     Shopping
Database      Cart
Getting Started: Hosting Issues

   Hosting
       Understanding what “hosting” means and your
   “Do-it-yourself” website services
Getting Started: Hosting Issues

   Bandwidth
   Capabilities and specifications
       Examine the features and functions provided by
        different hosts
       Example: Comparison of features at
   Firewall system
   Wireless delivery
   Buy, rent, or lease
   Maintenance, upgrade, and service of the
Getting Started: Web Hosting

   Identify what you have resources and time to
   Identify what will be done “outside” the firm
   Identify which external parties will be involved
       e.g., designer, ISP, web host? commerce provider?
   Identify how you will assess their
       Decision metrics – e.g., are they reliable?
       On-going performance metrics – e.g., is their
        “uptime” what they claim?
What is Involved in
Establishing a Web Site?

    Web site considerations
    The services wanted                 Training requirements
    How much your company can           Installation and server
     contribute to the site, from         maintenance
     manpower to electronic content      Programming
    Time to design your site            On corporate site hosting
    Time to create and program           vs. off-site
     your site                           Secure Server for financial
    Extra fees for software              transactions
     development                         Your bandwidth needs
    Fees for off-the-shelf              Your server capacity needs
     applications tools                  Location of your server at
    The size of the site                 the Web company or ISP
                                          company location
Ecommerce and the Internet:
Basic Site Building

     First – your ‘Domain Name’
          Maybe I’d like to use “”
          Check at to see if it’s available
     10 Steps at Yahoo! to developing your site
     Demonstration in basic site construction
          Using Yahoo! SiteWizards
Ecommerce and the Internet:
Basic Site Management Functions

     Example: Yahoo! Merchant Solutions
          Plans and features
          Business Control Panel - Site manager
              Store editor
              Catalog manager
              Order / request processing
              Site statistics
              Order settings
              Promoting the site
                  On-line Transaction Completion


                                         Complete transaction

                                         Do not complete transaction

Source: A.T. Kearney, 2001
                  Reasons for Abandoning
                  On-line Purchases

                                     Did not like returns policy       16
                                       Had to make phone call          16
                                     Could not specify product               24
                                        Could not find product                          40
                                          Web site malfunction                              42
                       Did not want to enter credit card details                                 46
                               Too much information required                                          52

                                                                   0    20             40                  60

Source: A.T. Kearney, 2001
Website Management Issues:
The Shopping Experience
   Industry research shows that up to 80 percent of
    shoppers abandon shopping cart before completing
   Techniques for minimizing shopping cart abandonment
       If the billing information is the same as the shipping information,
        include a “Same as billing information” check box to
        automatically fill in.
       Show stock availability on the product page, so shoppers do not
        have to wait until checkout to determine if a product is out of
       Include a link back to product page from shopping cart, so
        shoppers can easily go back to make sure they have selected the
        right item.
       Make it easy to change quantities or delete items from shopping
       Make it easy to select or change product values in the shopping
        cart (e.g., color, size).
       Include a "Progress Indicator" (e.g., "Step 2 of 5") on each
        checkout page (e.g., tabbed pages), so shoppers always know
        where they are in the checkout process.

                                                  Adapted from - 2005
Website Management Issues:
The Shopping Experience
   Techniques for minimizing shopping cart
    abandonment rates (continued):
       Provide shipping costs early in the process, so shoppers are not
        surprised during final checkout.
       Include a prominent "Next Step" or "Continue with Checkout"
        button on each checkout page, so shoppers do not get lost.
       Keep all information on one screen on each checkout page, so
        shoppers do not have to frequently scroll down.
       If information is missing or filled out incorrectly during checkout,
        give meaningful error message that clearly describes what needs
        to be corrected.
       If you intend to add your customers to a list for future e-mail
        marketing (either from you or a third party), make sure your
        customers know this and can easily opt out.
       Make recommendations of additional items to buy based on what
        is already in the shopping cart.

                                                  Adapted from - 2005
Web Site Management:
 Payment Processing
Web Site Management:
Payment Processing
Steps in Online Payment Processing
1.   Merchant submits credit card transaction to the Payment Gateway on behalf of a
     customer via secure connection from a Web site.

2.   Payment Gateway receives the secure transaction information and passes it via a
     secure connection to the Merchant Bank’s Processor.

3.   The Merchant Bank’s Processor submits the transaction to the Credit Card
     Interchange (a network of financial entities that communicate to manage the
     processing, clearing, and settlement of credit card transactions).

4.   Credit Card Interchange routes transaction to customer’s Credit Card Issuer.

5.   Credit Card Issuer approves / declines the transaction based on customer’s
     available funds and passes transaction results, and if approved, the appropriate
     funds, back through the Credit Card Interchange.

6.   Credit Card Interchange relays transaction results to Merchant Bank’s Processor.

7.   Merchant Bank’s Processor relays transaction results to Payment Gateway.

8.   Payment Gateway stores transaction results and sends them to customer and/or

9.   Credit Card Interchange passes appropriate funds for the transaction to Merchant’s
     Bank, which then deposits funds into the merchant’s bank account.
Web Site Management:
Payment Processing

   Some things to keep in mind:
       The merchant needs a special Internet Merchant
       The merchant needs to arrange for service through an
        Internet entity called a Payment Gateway
       The merchant needs to submit charges for settlement –
        daily or weekly

   Merchant’s sign-up process at
    Web Site Management:
Order Processing and Fulfillment
Web Site Management:
Steps in Order Processing and Fulfillment
   Order validated
   Settlement of order payment
   Customer notified
   Items picked
   Inventory updated
   Items packed (with packing slip)
   Shipping labels prepared
   Shipper pickup arranged
   Shipper picks up
   Send shipping confirmation (with tracking
    number) to customer
Web Site Management:
Order Processing and Fulfillment

   Merchant has to be notified or become aware
    that an order has been placed
   One reliable person should be made
    responsible for checking / processing orders
   It should become part of their ‘job description’
   What mode of informing?
       Email?
       Manual check of the site?
   How frequently / often will the person check /
Web Site Management:
Order Processing and Fulfillment

   Customer has to be notified of order
   Method – email, phone?
   Confirmation of stage in process
       Order placed
       Charge assessed to card
       Order shipped
Web Site Management:
Order Processing and Fulfillment
   Packaging
        Effective AND attractive

   Fulfillment
        Track inventory accurately
        Make sure you have enough product
        Indicate availability on web site – database inventory

   Shipping
        Vendor(s) and methods
        Rates – how much and how assessed
             included in price, flat rate, by weight, by number of items
        Shipment tracking
        Shipment status updates
        Remember - foreign shipping may require additional paperwork

   Product guarantees and returns
        Post a visible policy with explicit instructions
        Handle returns quickly
      WEB SITE
Website Planning / Operating Checklist
   Have you carefully analyzed your market and competition?
   Do you know who your target audience is, and is your website speaking to
   Do your prices include a realistic margin for profit when all expenses are
    subtracted including shipping, customer service and advertising
   Are your prices competitive with similar online businesses?
   Are your site’s objectives and purpose clear?
   Are your products or services clearly identified?
   Are the competitive advantages of your products or services clearly stated?
   Do you have a business plan? Have you planned 1, 3 and 5 years out?
   Will your website ever make money?
   Does your staff clearly understand their organizational duties and who is in
   How is your company’s hierarchy and decision process handled?
   Is there a clear path from R&D to sales? How quickly can your company initiate
    innovative ideas and products and have them online?
   Is your website’s architecture well designed and easy to navigate?
   Is your shopping cart easy to use? Is it secure?
   Is your electronic infrastructure set up efficiently?
   Do your website, product database, shipping, inventory, accounting, e-mail and
    customer database integrate well with each other?
   Is your database the hub?
   Do you have good statistical analysis software in place to track visitor and
    customer information?
Website Planning / Operating Checklist
   Does your website have a professional appearance when compared to your
   Is your text well written, concise and free of errors?
   Do you change your website frequently to make it ‘fresh’?
   Are your photos high quality and well lit?
   Are your graphics and photos optimized for the web?
   Do they represent your products well?
   Do you have click-to-enlarge photos of your products?
   Does your website load quickly?
   Is your software working well between inventory, fulfillment, shipping, customer
    service and accounting?
   Do you have a merchant credit card processing account?
   Have you decided on transaction policies, types of transactions, privacy policies,
    secure data storage for customer data?
   Does your staff know what to do in every situation?
   Are you able to fulfill orders quickly?
   Do you respond quickly to customer e-mail questions and service issues?
   Do you have a toll-free telephone number and can customers easily find someone
    to talk to?
   Do you or the person responsible for your website and marketing have intimate
    knowledge of the internet?
   How many hours per day is spent online?
   Do you purchase, conduct business and research online yourself?
   Are you watching for online trends and emerging technologies?
   Do you know if streaming media or other interactive technologies are beneficial for
    your website?
Other Online Resources

   A lot of small business related information -
   Universal online payment processing –
   Online payment processing and transaction
    security –
Ecommerce and the Internet: Conclusion
We Talked About:
 What is e-commerce and why do it?
 The Internet
 Website hosting basics
 Website development and design basics
 Website management basics

Now You Should:
 Go Out and Explore Some Web Site Options
 Maybe Even Start a Web Site

In The Next Workshop We’ll Talk About:
 How To Effectively Market Your Site
 Online Exchanges and Co-operatives
         Effective Online
         Hosting, Marketing, and
         Management Strategies
         Workshop #2

Kelly Burke – University of Hawaii at Hilo
Steven Parente – Aina Hawaiian Tropical Products

Supported by a USDA Cooperative State Research, Education and Extension Service Grant
through the University of Hawaii at Hilo and Dr. Marcia Sakai
Effective Online Business Marketing
and Management Strategies

   Marketing your Internet business

   Monitoring your site’s performance

   Extending business opportunities - online
    exchanges / cooperatives
Website Marketing
   Excellent customer service
      Word of mouth is the best form of advertising

   Plan a realistic monthly marketing and advertising budget
      Search engines
      Directories
      Traditional off-line media
Website Marketing

   Domain name should suggest your service or products
      Ex: or

       not

   The text in your website is critical to marketing
      Descriptive, accurate, concise
      Include keywords – more than once – but not too
Website Marketing: Three Objectives
   Increase Presence  Optimize

   Drive Traffic  Publicize

   Convert Visitors  Monetize
Website Marketing
   Find out if your site is indexed
      Pages in cache
          At Google  cache:
          Ex: cache: - nothing?
          Ex: cache:

       Number of pages indexed in domain
          At Google or Yahoo! 
          At Google
          At Yahoo!
Search Engine Marketing
Search Engine Marketing
   Combination of:
      Your site’s pages (content)

       Bid for placement advertising

   Sponsored results at search engine sites
      Ex: search Google for “bath soap”
Search Engine Marketing:
Basic Design
   Most search engines use weighted point systems to
    display results in a ranked order

   Ranking is result of page “grade”

       Grade = title + description + keywords + H1 tags +
        links-into + ‘alt’ descriptions + number of images +
        page size

   Use a tool at Summit Media to analyze your site
Search Engine Marketing:
Basic Design
   It’s all about ‘descriptive content’
   Limit use of multimedia
   Limit use of graphics
   Use long descriptive ‘link’ text
        Ex: Here you will find a listing of all of the courses
         Dr. Burke teaches.
   Spell check and edit
   Make it easy to move around the site
   Avoid frames
Search Engine Marketing:
   Use a descriptive ‘Title’
        No more than 40 characters including spaces
        Include keyword in title
        Ex: Flowers-by-Kelly Home Page – Orchids for all

   Use meta-tags
        Description meta-tag – should
             Be no more than 190 characters long
             Include keywords
             Be factual and accurate
             Include general product information
             Include information about target audience
             Not include slang, exaggeration, or hyperbole
        Keywords meta-tag
        Header ‘H1’ tags
Search Engine Marketing:
Optimization Using Meta Tags
   Title Tag
        <title>Sore Okole Mountain Bikes - Home Page</title>

   Description Tag
        <META NAME = “description” CONTENT = “Sore Okole Mountain
         Bikes is the place for all of your biking needs, including frames,
         components, accessories, gear and popular brands like
         Cannondale, Trek and Specialized”>

   Keywords Tag
        <META NAME = “keywords” CONTENT = “mountain, bike, bikes,
         Cannondale, Trek, Specialized, components, gear, frames”>

   Header Tag
        <h1> Sore Okole Mountain Bicycles </h1>

   Example of HTML source at Sore Okole Bicylcles
Search Engine Marketing: Bid
for Placement and Keywords
Search Engine Marketing:
Bid for Placement - PPC Advertising
   Register with PPC system (search engine)

   Load account

   Create an advertisement
      Title, body text, link to ‘landing’ page

   Choose keywords to associate with the ad

   For each keyword you associate - bid amount you are
    willing to pay for each click for the ad
Search Engine Marketing:
   How they work
   Keyword analysis
       Keyword rank = meta tag placement + capitalization + font
        size + word position in document relative to other words
   Identify competitors’ keywords
   Look up synonyms
      Bicycle and bike
   Consider plurals and spelling mistakes
      Bicycles and bicycels
   Research the use of the keyword
      Yahoo! Advertiser Center  Tools  Term Suggestion
        Type in search term
Search Engine Marketing:
   Keywords should attract visitors in all three stages of
    the buying cycle
       Researching
            General keywords  mountain bikes

       Shopping (comparing)
            More focused  cross country mountain bikes

       Purchasing
            Specific choices  Specialized Rockhopper (a
             brand of cross-country mountain bike)
Search Engine Marketing:

   Many sites will have to manage dozens and even
    hundreds of keywords

   Every keyword should ‘land’ the visitor at the most
    relevant page for that keyword
      Example: ‘Trek’ should land visitor on a page with
        Trek bikes - not on the site’s homepage

   Keywords may have to change to reflect ‘seasonality’
Search Engine Marketing:
   Matching
      Broad
            Mountain bikes – whenever search contains these
       Phrase
            “Mountain bikes” – only when search contains this
            Could be in a search for “used mountain bikes”
       Exact
            [downhill mountain bikes] – only when search specifies
             this exact order of words
            Would not show for search of “mountain bikes
       Negative
            -Used – does not show when this word or phrase is
             used by someone looking for used bikes
Search Engine Marketing:
Keyword Tools

      Searches data at large web-crawlers like
      Stores two months of searches – 300 million searches
      Number of times searched for in last 60 days
      Estimates number of searches per day
      Similar terms & common misspellings
      Comparison of number of times term is searched for
       and number of pages returned for the term
           Look for term with many searches and few pages
Search Engine Marketing:
Valuing PPC Search Terms
   Determine how much gross profit (after costs) you make per
        Is there a ‘lifetime’ value per customer or
        Do you value a customer as ‘one time’ only?

   Calculate ‘conversion’ rate
      estimates retail industry average at 2.4%
        When possible use your own site statistics

   Calculate PPC value – also called Conversion Cost
        If your gross profit is $10 per sale
        And your conversion rate is 4% (4 sales per 100 click-throughs)
        Then your PPC value is $10 X .04 = $0.40 - that you would be willing
         to pay per visitor (PPC)
        In other words, you can pay $0.40 per click through and after 25 of
         them you would have paid 25 X $0.40 = $10.00 but you’d expect 1 of
         the 25 visitors (4%) to buy something - giving you that $10.00 gross
         profit, covering your PPC costs
Search Engine Marketing:
Cross-linking and Other Issues
Search Engine Marketing:
   Page Rank is increased by
        More links into your site
        Links into your site from more relevant sites
   Cross-linking is also a form of ‘Branding’
   Use linking strategies that enhance your website's position –
    not detract from potential sales
        For instance, link from complementary products sites rather than
         from similar products sites
   Cross-linking sources:
        Trade associations
        Companies you do business with
        Press releases and promotions
        Have content people value (ex: history of lei making)
        Contact relevant sites
   The power of cross-linking
      Check link popularity - for ex: at -
Search Engine Marketing:
What Search Engines Don’t Like
   Don’t search or find it difficult to search when they see:
      Frames, images, multimedia (ex: flash, animation),
       image maps
            Avoid frames, images, animation unless necessary
            Move images and image maps to bottom of page
       Scripts, excessive formatting code
            Call external scripts – don’t embed in source
            Use external CSS files for formatting
       Dynamic pages – too many parameters, too many
        possible pages
            Use static pages when possible
            Use one or two parameters at most
       Will not search sites that demand cookies for site
Search Engine Marketing:
Submit to the Major Engines
   AltaVista –
   AOL.COM Search –
   Ask Jeeves –
   Google –
   Overture –
   Excite –
   Fast –
   HotBot –
   Lycos –
   MSN Search –

   Don’t forget Froogle –
Search Directory Marketing
Search Directory Marketing
   Directories are different than engines

   Index by categories rather than keywords
      So – there are far fewer categories

   Why submit to directories?
     Another channel of exposure
     Each one is one more ‘link into’ your site – remember
Search Directory Marketing

   Major directories are
      Google Directory – fed by Open Directory Project

       Yahoo! Directory
            Fourteen categories – thousands of subcategories
            So may be difficult choosing a category to be listed in
            Submitting costs $$$

       Open Directory Project –

       LookSmart –
Search Engine Marketing:
Webmaster SEO Resources
   Google’s webmaster pages
   Yahoo help
   Search Engine Watch
   Pandia Search Central
   Open Directory Project
Non-Search Engine Marketing:
Non-Search Engine Marketing
   Advertising banners
      Typical ad = 468 x 60 pixels (about 1” x 5”)
      Are they effective?
          Click through rates of 1 – 3 per thousand impressions
      Buying them
          Costs dropping – ~$20 for 1,000,000 impressions (
      Link ‘exchanges’ – ex: flower sellers could partner with gift sellers or
       gift-card sellers
             Remember - having link partners also looks good to search engines
        Are they right for your products or services?

   Banner strategies
        Banner should load quickly and have a ‘call to action’ – ex: “click
         here for…”
        Have inventory of 5-6 banners
        Have them rotated every 5,000-10,000 impressions
        Use multiple banner exchanges for different networks of targets
        Look / negotiate for more ‘targeted’ exposures (they target using
         ‘keywords’ that you bid on)
        Monitor click-throughs for each banner and from each exchange
Non-Search Engine Marketing

   Opt-in e-mail databases
      Promotions, e-mail marketing, direct mail marketing
      Build lists from store front, web site, catalogs
      Buy lists from list sellers
      Response rates higher than with banner ads – as
       much as 5%-10%
      They are targeted

   Effectiveness of banner ads and email programs may be
    considered as “Brand Building”
Non-Search Engine Marketing

   Affiliate programs and promotional partnerships
      Pay to have leads sent to you (pay per-click or per-
      Ex:

   Bonus point strategies can develop repeat business

   The importance of traditional advertising
      Print – can cost $2 - $3 per sale
      Radio, television – can cost $10 - $40 per sale
Website Marketing:
Follow-up Management Issues
Website Marketing:
Follow-up Management
   Collecting / analyzing visitor and customer data
      Discovering your customers’ patterns, wants and
      Using software to analyze the data
            Ex: uhhiloagstore at Yahoo! Store
       What to analyze
       How often

   ROI (Return On Investment) from advertising and
      Measuring advertising effectiveness
      What is your “Cost Per Conversion”?
            For example Google has a “Conversion Tracker” tool
Website Marketing Checklist
   Does your domain name make sense with your service or products?
   Is the text in your website descriptive, concise and accurate?
   Do you understand how search engines work and that most use a weighted point system to
    display results?
   Do you understand what bid-for-placement marketing is?
   Do you understand what sponsored results are in the search engines?
   Do you understand what cross-linking is?
   Do you know linking strategies that enhance your website's position and do not detract from
    potential sales?
   Do you know that some past internet marketing techniques can actually get your website
    penalized with the search engines?
   Have you planned for a realistic monthly marketing and advertising budget?
   Is online marketing such as advertising banners good for your products or services?
   Would traditional advertising work with your online presence, such as print, radio and
   Have you considered creating an opt-in e-mail database for promotions, e-mail marketing and
    direct mail marketing?
   Are there promotional partnerships available for your products or services?
   Do you have bonus point strategies in place to develop repeat customer traffic?
   Do you have the software in place to collect and analyze visitor and customer data?
   Do you analyze it regularly and learn your customer patterns, wants and desires?
   Do you have a good ROI (Return On Investment) from your advertising and marketing? Do you
    know how to tell?

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