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Read the transcript. - BBC


									         Ouch Podcast #73 – July 2011

      Presented by Mat Fraser and Liz Carr

MAT   Thank you for downloading us. I'm Mat. Next to me is Liz
      and she's going to be telling you what we're all going to try
      our hardest to enjoy together - apparently, Liz, we've got
      loos, dwarfs and all sorts.

LIZ   Oh it's good to be back with you Mat.

MAT   Oh mutual, mutual. Dream team are back!

LIZ   Dream team. In about ten minutes we've got Jas with her
      mother Bev, they're the stars of 'Small Teen, Bigger World'
      a new BBC3 reality programme. They're the dwarfs Mat
      lovingly referred to by the way.

MAT   Well they're lucky aren't they? Well Jas and Bev are
      anyway. All this and more folks in the show that makes the
      undiscussable discussable.

      [Jingle: From the BBC in London it's the Ouch Talk Show
      with Mat Fraser and Liz Carr.]

      Is it egotistical, Liz, to note that the dream team are back?
LIZ   Yes it is, but it's still fair to say.

MAT   Yes and I think we can own it.

LIZ   I think we can after five odd years, I think we can. Mat, glad
      you're back. I have to talk to you about the whole Wayne
      Rooney stuff at Glastonbury in the crip toilet.

MAT   Yes okay, please do.

LIZ   But before we do that. You have been away. I was poorly
      last month, the last couple of months but you where you've
      been in Ireland I believe.

MAT   To be sure I have. ((Irish accent)) Top of the morning to
      you, Liz

LIZ   And you've been employed with an accent like that?

MAT   No I haven't thankfully otherwise obviously I'd have been
      sacked on day one. No I had my lovely London accent and I
      was in the top Irish soap called 'Fair City' on RTE or ((Irish
      accent)) RTE as they say over there.

LIZ   I love it because I've absolutely never heard of it but it's
MAT   Well no one else has.

LIZ   Is it huge?

MAT   Yes it's massive, it's the most watched programme in Ireland
      and I cannot, literally I cannot walk down the streets of
      Dublin without being accosted and inundated by women
      basically, Liz, all over 65.

LIZ   We've got a clip of you in this show, Mat, and so listeners
      apparently Mat plays David Osborne and we're going to
      hear David's mum Esther who gave her son up for adoption
      in the '60s, but now Mat aka David has returned to Dublin.

      [Playing clip:
      Esther:      To think I wrote this 50 years ago and now
                   there you are sitting in front of me.
      Mat:         Come on, let's get some air. The walk will do
                   us both good.
      Esther:      You know, I didn't care about your arms. That's
                   not why I gave you away.
      Mat:         I know. That's what I find most confusing.]

LIZ   Wow you're being a proper actor.

MAT   Intriguing isn't it? Well you know it's funny you should say
      that because, just quickly, you know, some people disparage
      soap acting and the whole nature of it and I did think of
      myself as a proper actor, "Oh doing a soap." All of that's
      been wiped away, it's not for no reason that Sir Ian
      McKellen himself says the hardest job he's ever had to do as
      an actor was when he was on Coronation Street. It is the
      hardest I've ever worked in my life, Liz. At one point I did
      49 scenes in eight days. But it's been great. It's been
      incredible because I've been... it's another first for Mat
      Fraser, I don't mean to I'm just of an age I think - the first
      disabled actor to portray a disabled character on Irish TV,
      apart from a few learnie bit parts that they've had. And you
      know as we cruise through our series of firsts Sarah Flood
      who plays the love interest of my character, we did our first
      kissing scene and I said to her afterwards, "No pressure but
      that was the first time that's ever happened on Irish TV" and
      seeing a disabled person kiss anybody in a romantic setting
      and all these sorts of things. But most profound for me is the
      65 year old ladies just keep coming at me because it's a huge
      issue for them. There was me thinking it was all about me
      and the disability portrayal and oh thalidomide and blah,
      blah blah. Actually no it's about kids that were put up for
      adoption trying to find their birth mothers. It's a huge
      subject in Ireland, huge.

LIZ   I'm dying to watch it. Congratulations it sounds fab.

MAT   Thanks very much. Unfortunately for British would-be
      viewers unless you've got the full and expensive package of
      a certain satellite company that's run by...

LIZ   We're not going to see it.

MAT   ... Mr Rupert Murdoch you won't be able to see it, no.

LIZ   Maybe we can watch it some other way, I'm sure. Look onto
      Mr Rooney.

MAT   Ah subject of hm who? Wayne Rooney ah yes I'm aware of

LIZ   So well The Sun reported that he was seen...

MAT   What's he done?

LIZ   ... using an accessible loo reserved for disabled music fans
      at Glastonbury at the end of June.

MAT   Based on what... why?

LIZ   Apparently he was escorted there as a VIP because the
      disabled area was next to the VIP area so that's why he
      went. But, you know, Mat, wouldn't you... do you with your
      little flipper arms do you use the disabled loo?

MAT   I only use it if there are no other ones available and I look
      around in my visual vista there are no apparently disabled
      people approaching said toilet.

LIZ   But you do use it now and again?

MAT   Only when I have to. And absolutely not if I don't have to.

LIZ   Do you feel you have a...
MAT   In the same way I don't park in a disabled parking space
      unless I absolutely have to.

LIZ   So do you feel you do have a sense of entitlement to it just
      by being a crip?

MAT   Yes to some extent I do although I'm fully aware as a
      conscious crip - small c's - that for a wheelchair user and for
      people with access needs to do with going to the toilet in
      that style, however if you've been to many festivals as I have
      and you're there at day four, and it's pretty unspeakable in
      most of the toilets, I don't think Wayne Rooney has even
      that excuse does he?

LIZ   It was funny because I was rung up by a radio show who
      wanted my views on it. And I said, "Well why?" And they
      said, "We'd like somebody who's cross about people abusing
      disabled toilets." I was like, "Do you know what I've been
      disabled most of my life I've sort of stopped getting cross
      about it." I mean you do occasionally you do...

MAT   You do when you are prevented. Shouldn't able bodied
      people be annoyed by it as well?

LIZ   Well I think it's not about being annoyed, not for most of
      them, I think it's about that feeling of guilt and I have to tell
      you this, so at work there is a disabled toilet at work.

MAT   As is legally required yes.
LIZ   Of course legally required to be. And one of my colleagues
      came up to me and I'd not been in the office at this point and
      I'm the only obvious wheelchair user in the office, or
      disabled person in the office, and came up to me the next
      day and was like, "Liz, I just have to tell you I used the
      disabled toilet yesterday, I'm so sorry." Like this big
      moment of confession. And as if I was going to make it all
      okay as if I was this representative of disability who could

MAT   You could absolve his sins.

LIZ   Absolutely the sin of using the crip loo.

MAT   You're the Pope of disability in the confessional
      environment of your office.

LIZ   To make him feel better about it.

MAT   Wow. Another unpaid job.

LIZ   And now he uses it all the time.

MAT   Oh!

LIZ   I didn't say he could, I'm just saying but now that was it. It's
      only annoying for me when that five minutes of every day I
      actually want, you know, three times a day or whatever, I
      want to use the loo if somebody else is in there.

MAT   Yeah.

LIZ   But the rest of the time it doesn't really bother me. It's a big
      room that cl--... and you know that's the other thing I think
      that people want bigger toilets.

MAT   Well my thing's always been that in an ideal world all toilets
      are wheelchair accessible and everyone can use all the
      toilets, then there isn't the issue at all.

LIZ   That would be fantastic. I've just been in the States and
      rather than like in the UK we often have separate disabled
      loos don't we, so there's male/female/disabled it's sort of the
      privacy. And I've always thought well okay people like them
      because a) they're bigger, but also they're private, so you can
      do your business in there without...

MAT   Yeah.

LIZ   Yeah. But in the States they're just another cubicle.

MAT   I know they're the big cubicle...

LIZ   ... in the row.
MAT   ... in the row.

LIZ   Yeah. But what I found is people still use them. So it's not
      the privacy, it's like if you go in and there's 12 stalls and one
      of them is bigger with the wheelchair symbol and there's
      nobody else in there that one will be occupied.

MAT   Yeah everyone wants turnaround space.

LIZ   They do don't they?

MAT   Yes.

LIZ   Whether it's to get changed or deal with their shopping or
      their kids or...

MAT   Or other things like when you haven't seen your girlfriend...

LIZ   No.

MAT   ... for a very long time in Heathrow airport.

LIZ   Obviously that always comes in yes. I remember once going
      into an accessible loo and we were waiting there a while
      somebody was in there and I was with my partner and I was
      used to it, they would get narked because we had to wait.
MAT   Yes.

LIZ   And this woman comes out and she doesn't appear to be
      disabled in any sense, there's no trappings, no stereotype...

MAT   I'm sensing a Liz tearing up.

LIZ   Do you know what I didn't but Jo gave this glance that was
      like "You're guilty, look at Liz" and the woman went past
      and she shuffled past and then she came back and she said,
      "I've got a bag you know" and you just... that was
      mortifying and that's the thing, you don't actually know.

MAT   You mean a colostomy bag?

LIZ   No I meant shopping bags.

MAT   Hey kerching!

LIZ   [singing]

MAT   It's the way you tell 'em, Liz.

LIZ   Thank you. The set up was a bit long but...
MAT   It's never stopped you before. No set up too big, no payoff
      too small, Liz Carr.

LIZ   No she clearly meant colostomy bag and it was that's it, that
      was mortifying for both of us, well for all of us and that's the

MAT   So, Liz, is there like a chart, an impairment chart, and I have
      to say the impairment and you say "In" or "Out" of the

LIZ   Okay, I like that, like a game.

MAT   Blind?

LIZ   With a dog, possibly on their own and can only stumble into
      the accessible loo because they can't find their proper loo
      because they're not doing that Braille thing by the symbols.

MAT   Okay. Phew. Upper limb thalidomide?

LIZ   I don't really think there's any excuse other than you just
      want a bigger toilet and somewhere...

MAT   False leg?

LIZ   Not unless when they spin round it flings off.
MAT   Biffo, crutches user?

LIZ   Crutches user if that makes them too wide for a regular stall
      fine, otherwise no.

MAT   Short person, dwarf?

LIZ   Short person aren't the toilets too high for them whether it's
      a big toilet or a little toilet? In fact in a big toilet they've got
      further to walk so better they go in a normal one.

MAT   Okay, good to know. Phew. Deaf?

LIZ   Deaf! Oh don't be ridiculous.

MAT   Wheelchair user?

LIZ   Of course.

MAT   Okay. Somebody like that Cherylee Houston off Coronation
      Street who can sometimes use a wheelchair but sometimes
      do bits of walking?

LIZ   Then she can sometimes use the disabled... I don't know!

      [Jingle: Contact us via email Or follow on
      Twitter at bbcouch. Or like our page on Facebook. But we're
      mostly at on our blog. What a lot of alphabet

MAT       On the line from Wrexham, in ‘devolved’ Wales we have
          Jasmine Burkitt and her mum Bev.

BEV       Hello.


MAT       Ah isn't that sweet?

LIZ       Which is which? Which is Jas?

JAS       I'm Jas.

BEV       Jas is the attractive young one with the world at the feet.
          Bev is the old hag who's past it now and is just trying to get
          a little bit of money squeezing out of her daughter's fame.
          That sums us up really.

MAT       Thank you very much, it's been lovely talking to you.

BEV       Let's start with honesty.

LIZ       We should explain to the listeners...
MAT   Please do.

LIZ   We first met you two on BBC3's 'Small Teen, Big World'
      which became the channel's most watched show ever for a
      time, for about a week. And you're about to start in a four
      part series that's a spin off from that - 'Small Teen, Bigger

MAT   Actually they were the record holders for nine whole

LIZ   Really?

MAT   Yeah. So that's a big record. We're going to listen to a clip
      now. This bit apparently, Jas, is where you're talking about
      being laughed at in the street.

      [Playing clip: We can't just walk down the street and be not
      laughed at or pointed at or pointed out. It's like walking out
      in a ridiculous costume and everyone looking at you. No
      matter what you're wearing if you're wearing a bright orange
      traffic cone or all black against a black wall you'd still be
      noticed, you know, because people like to point out
      difference, because it's natural to look difference is brilliant,
      difference is what makes this world, you know, but there's
      no need to be pointing, laughing and shouting, showing all
      your mates, you know, and that's what really gets me.]

LIZ   Actually, Jas, we've also got a bit of a jingle that we'd like to
      play, we think you might like it.
JAS   Okay yeah, go ahead.

      [Jingle: Difference is good if we were all the same it would
      be a shame because difference is good.
      Oh Yeah. We wouldn't change it if we could. It's part of the
      neighbourhood. We're different and different is good.]

LIZ   Not according to Jas difference is brilliant. Love it.

JAS   Amazing.

MAT   It's something that comes up a lot in the programme isn't it...

JAS   Yes it does.

MAT   ... how you feel about being different, how you feel about
      other people reacting to your difference.

JAS   But it's not moaning.

MAT   No, no, no. I think I mean what we watched, we watched a
      little clip earlier, and what we noticed was that it's so not
      moaning, it's like...

LIZ   It's just you getting on with your everyday life isn't it?
JAS   That's what we wanted and we're so glad that we've got such
      a great editor who edited it like that, because we want to
      show people that yes we are different and yes sometimes it
      is difficult but we live a 'normal' life. We get out there, we
      do things, we see the world and we use our disability to
      push us further and to make us see the world and everything
      it has to offer.

LIZ   So what do we see in the four part episode, you know the
      four episodes?

JAS   Well without revealing too much.

BEV   We're not telling you.

JAS   We can't tell you too much.

BEV   Not telling you because we'll get in trouble. We won't.

JAS   It's... I can't describe it, it's emotional, very, very emotional.

MAT   Yeah.

LIZ   It is, we can vouch for that the tissues were out.

BEV   Yeah. It's funny.
JAS   It really is. This next series is incredibly emotional and it
      takes you on a journey, you know, it's up and down, up and
      down and you're either laughing or crying you know.

BEV   It's like an Eastender Coronation Street soap opera...

JAS   Yeah.

BEV   ... but in a mini series.

JAS   I mean you couldn't write this stuff honestly.

BEV   No you couldn't write it. Although I know some people are
      trying to…

LIZ   A bit of a double act there.

MAT   So how did BBC3 find you how did it all start?

JAS   Well it was a bit kind of mad how it all happened; me and
      Mum were on our way to Spain for a holiday. And we met
      this nice lady who was helping us with our bags, just
      another traveller, and she was just helping us. And we got
      chatting in the waiting room and she said, "Would you like
      to make a documentary?" And we were like, "Okay." And it
      turned out she was the owner of a company who makes
      documentaries, real life documentaries for the BBC and it
      literally went from there. We did a taster tape while we were
      in Spain, sent it off to the BBC and they loved it. And it
      went from there, it was pretty crazy.

LIZ   And what made you say yes because obviously for this
      particular... this series four hours of TV that's a lot of

JAS   Yeah.

MAT   You must have been like the flies must have been on your
      wall for ages and all the time?

JAS   Yeah definitely. There is so much stuff that we filmed that
      didn't make it into the first one and hasn't made it into this
      next series. There is so much that we did they had to cut so
      much out, you know, so much good stuff and it's hard to
      pick what is good and what it isn't, it depends what the
      viewers want to see. But I was pretty nervous when I first
      kind of had the first offer, you know, I was kind of like are
      they going to make it one of them soppy look at me, poor
      me kind of ones, or are they going to turn it round and make
      us seem this, that and the other. I was worried. And we
      didn't want it to be about our health or hospitals or this bad
      thing, that bad thing, we wanted it to be about our real lives
      and what happened every day. And in the end I just thought
      I can't let this opportunity pass and I said, "Yeah why not"
      and it's gone from then. And I'm so glad that I said yes and
      I'm very lucky that I've had such a great team behind me.
      I've had my producer and the…

LIZ   This is sounding like a BAFTA speech now, you do know
JAS   Yeah.

BEV   We have won awards.

LIZ   Oh have you?

JAS   Yeah.

BEV   We have won awards and we are expecting more! No we're
      not doing it for those reasons because there was two reasons
      we did it; one we wanted... three reasons: one we wanted
      people to have an awareness of our condition.

MAT   Reason one.

BEV   Yeah and an understanding of it and empathy with it. And
      those are the sort of three things that we tried to get over.

JAS   Yeah we don't want people to feel sorry for us because
      there's no need for that and I don't like documentaries that
      make you feel sorry for somebody because...

BEV   Well you just become a sort of a charity symbol don't you?

JAS   Yeah.
LIZ   So is this the UK equivalent of 'Little People, Big World' the

BEV   Yeah without the money. They are loaded that family but it
      is a fantastic film and programme and series but they've got
      a huge farm and they've got everything and we live...

MAT   A farm?

JAS   Yeah. They've got this big farm. Well they've got a ranch or

BEV   All sorts they've got a ranch and everything, we've got
      nothing, we're poor.

LIZ   So this is a US TV series isn't it I think it finished actually
      last year starring Amy and Matt Roloff.

BEV   Yes that's it.

LIZ   A family of little people and it was following their life kind
      of thing.

JAS   No it was great it was...

BEV   We loved it.
JAS   I watched some of it and I found it really interesting and it
      was not all about their health problems but it was kind of
      quite a lot about health problems and about the things they
      can't do and how they struggle. And I totally respect that
      because it is really annoying sometimes and you just want to
      have a good moan. But people, the viewers they don't want
      to see that, they don’t want to see people moaning and that's
      why I think they loved ours so much because it is so upbeat
      and it's funny and me and Mum work really well together.

MAT   You do that's one of the real successes of the show. Now
      look this kind of exposure means that you're going to be
      massively famous. Is it leading to anything I mean what's
      next guys?

BEV   Jasmine wants to be a vet and do horrible things to animals
      to make them better. And I want to sit on my deckchair and
      sell my bestselling novels you know what we all want to do.
      I want to be in adverts where I get loads of money.

JAS   Yeah you want to kind of sell out don't you?

BEV   I want to sell out now.

LIZ   BBC. And Jas you want to be a vet. Tell us about that, are
      you on the road to that happening?

JAS   Yeah. Well I've just finished my Level 2 Diploma in Animal
BEV   With distinction.

JAS   Yes.

MAT   Ah the proud Mum there.

BEV   Yeah it is but she's worked very hard.

JAS   I put everything into that course. It was a year long and I
      lived in at college as well all week which was really difficult
      at times.

LIZ   And will we see this in the show?

JAS   Yeah it featured quite heavily actually...

BEV   Yeah it is.

JAS   ... about me being at college and how I... it kind of the series
      starts with me starting college and then it ends with me kind
      of finishing college. So it's a real...

MAT   That's a lot of college.

JAS   Yeah.
LIZ   And did you find because obviously you've had the cameras,
      the film crew with you has that inhibited relationships, has it
      helped or you know has it been a problem at all?

JAS   I think having the camera there puts pressure on you like
      tremendously. You have to think about exactly what you're
      going to say. You are yourself but you can't kind of just slob
      about and do nothing because...

BEV   I did.

JAS   I know you did, Mum.

MAT   But listen, Jas, with your glorious new work ethic so are we
      to expect 'Little Vet, Big Horse'?

JAS   Yeah I'm liking that title.

BEV   That is a good one because she does actually...

JAS   I like that!

BEV   ... she does actually ride big horses. She doesn't like ponies.

JAS   I do like horse riding.
BEV   She does do the 15/16 hand horse riding.

LIZ   And Bev yours will be what 'Little Woman, Lazy Arse'?

BEV   Something like that yeah.

JAS   Definitely.

BEV   Or 'Little Woman, Big Gob'.

JAS   Yeah that's a good one.

BEV   That would be quite good wouldn't it? And then 'Little
      Woman, Bigger Gob' that would be for the series follow up.

MAT   You'd have to have your mouth stretched though for the
      second series.

LIZ   Well Bev isn't this a natural progression for you though
      because you've got a lot of acting experience.

BEV   Yeah.

LIZ   We used to perform together…
MAT   I mean the first time I ever saw you, Bev, was in a comedy
      troupe called 'The Nasty Girls' with Liz.

BEV   Yes. I mean fond memories...

LIZ   So would you like to, you know, follow that through now
      and do more?

BEV   I'm sort of at the point where I'd like to do a bit of writing
      again and maybe do a bit of performing because I noticed
      throughout the whole of this series, the last one, the editor
      just kept picking out me being silly, me being funny and I
      said, "Couldn't you find sort of me being the mature,
      sensible, adult Mum?"

JAS   There wasn't any of that.

BEV   There wasn't footage of that though. We tried to film...

JAS   You are good at one liners.

BEV   And they sort of said, "No we've got to leave you as you
      are." And then for the second one I thought I'll really try
      hard and show some grit.

JAS   You are very animated aren't you?
BEV   And it just came out the same. It's just all me being silly,
      funny, you know...

JAS   Wine helps though doesn't it.

BEV   Yeah wine helps yeah my little glass of wine that I have to
      have everywhere. But yeah and I'd like to write a bit more
      and do a bit more stand-up again but I'm living in the sort of
      outer skirts of a little back area of Wales which is lovely, so
      I might sort of hook up with a few people and write. But
      that's my next aim I think.

MAT   And anyway you've got the internet so we're all in any city
      we want to in the world really with online. Now, Jas, it's
      been often said that all small people end up being
      entertainers. You're clearly going to break...

JAS   Oh God I hate that.

MAT   Yeah but let me finish, you're clearly breaking the mould by
      obviously you want to become a working vet, but what's
      your opinion about that cliché?

JAS   It annoys me so much because it's sad that most people with
      our condition find that their only alternative to work. And it
      is very true, you know, it's very difficult to get a job
      anywhere in this economy, so getting a job where you're
      probably more likely to get the job and get a bit of money
      and taking up acting and things. I think serious roles and
      things like that are brilliant but I can't stand seeing
      programmes or comedy sketches where we're just poked fun
      at and it's like the joke obviously is us and I hate that so

BEV   There was very recently I mean we were talking the last few
      weeks there was an advertisement for a gardening company
      and the seven dwarfs were there or some sort of short men
      who were all dressed as garden gnomes fishing. And I think
      to myself how can you go from that and then expect people
      to treat you as a serious person when 20 minutes earlier you
      held a fishing rod and erm…

LIZ   And you know there's coming up there's going to be a show
      on Channel 4 the seven dwarfs show where they're
      following a troupe of little people taking part in a panto.

BEV   Yeah. But I'm hoping that's... I mean I don't... I've only read
      about it I'm just hoping it is good rather than awful.

LIZ   We've got the Ricky Gervais sitcom - what's it called?

MAT   'Life's Too Short'.

LIZ   'Life's Too Short'.

MAT   With our own Kiruna Stamell.

BEV   I know I'm looking forward to that. I spoke to her yesterday.
      Hello Kiruna.
LIZ   It sounds fantastic.

BEV   And if Kiruna's in it I know it's going to be good.

LIZ   And Warwick Davis.

BEV   Yeah and Warwick Davis.

JAS   And they're very good.

LIZ   But do you think then is 2011 the year for little people on

JAS   It seems to be yeah.

JAS   I think our plan to take over the world is working.

BEV   It is yeah slowly but surely, you know, we're creeping up
      there. And it isn't going to be long before the first prime
      minister is actually a short person.

JAS   Yeah definitely.

BEV   And we'll all be celebrating in the streets.
JAS   I'm thinking of running you know.

BEV   Yeah and there's going to be Short Pride and all the rest of

MAT   Nice. Like the sound of that.

LIZ   I think there already is. In a studio in Wrexham that it.

BEV   All right we can live our dreams.

MAT   Okay. Well it's been great talking to you. Now when is the
      show on?

JAS   It starts on the 11th of July at 9:00pm on BBC3.

BEV   That's because I had to not... they just couldn't find any of
      me not swearing so they had to put it on at 9:00 o'clock after
      the watershed.

MAT   Thank you for managing so well not to swear on this
      interview, we appreciate that.

JAS   Yeah it's been really hard for her. She's been gritting her
BEV       Three nails have gone.

LIZ       Jas, good luck with the course and, Bev, start writing let's
          see you on stage again.

BEV       Yeah I think so yeah.

MAT       Thanks guys, thanks for talking to us.

JAS       Thank you.

MAT       Thanks for talking to us, you're lovely. Bye bye.

LIZ       Take care.

JAS AND   Bye.

MAT       That is the end of the show. The team this week were Dan
          Slipper, Emma Tracey and Andy Fell was on the faders.
          And the producer of course was Damon Rose.

LIZ       We're back in a couple of weeks with comedian Laurence
          Clark talking about 'Health Hazard' his Edinburgh Fringe
          show. And we'll have music and chat from the kids of
          Widney High. Until then...
LIZ AND   Goodbye!

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