Episode 68

Document Sample
Episode 68 Powered By Docstoc
					                                         The	
  Paleo	
  Solution	
  
                                              Episode	
  68	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Robb	
  Wolf.	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        Andy	
  Deas,	
  back	
  with	
  episode	
  68,	
  The	
  Paleo	
  Solution.	
  And	
  today	
  we	
  are	
  
                       finally	
  joined	
  by	
  Matt	
  Lalonde.	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Unleash	
   the	
   Kraken.	
   Grrr!	
   I	
   had	
   to	
   do	
   it,	
   man.	
   I	
   had	
   to	
   do	
   it.	
   Matt,	
  
                       welcome.	
  How	
  are	
  you	
  doing?	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Doing	
   good,	
   having	
   some	
   electrolyte	
   enhanced	
   water	
   until	
   noontime	
  
                       comes	
  around	
  so	
  I	
  can	
  actually	
  eat.	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        So	
   is	
   that	
   code	
   for	
   what	
   Andy	
   is	
   also	
   drinking	
   which	
   is	
   some	
   sort	
   of	
   warm	
  
                       somewhat	
   flavored	
   liquid	
   which	
   were	
   -­‐-­‐	
   I'm	
   guessing	
   both	
   of	
   these	
   are	
  
                       urine	
  in	
  both	
  your	
  bottles?	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     No.	
  Mine	
  would	
  be	
  at	
  room	
  temperature	
  and	
  uncolored	
  and	
  unflavored.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        And	
  Andy,	
  you're	
  doing	
  decaf	
  tea?	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        It's	
  amazing.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        It's	
  very	
  aggressive,	
  very,	
  very	
  aggressive.	
  	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        That's	
  what	
  my	
  life	
  has	
  come	
  to.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Wow!	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Robb,	
  if	
  you	
  want	
  aggressive,	
  just	
  go	
  to	
  Epic	
  Meal	
  Time	
  and	
  look	
  at	
  their	
  
                       tequila	
  night.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Oh,	
  I	
  go	
  to	
  Epic	
  Meal	
  Time	
  all	
  the	
  time.	
  Those	
  guys	
  are	
  my	
  heroes.	
  	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Now,	
  that's	
  aggressive.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        That	
   is	
   super	
   aggressive.	
   Those	
   guys	
   are	
   great.	
   Now,	
   they're	
   bringing	
   in	
  
                       girls	
  too.	
  	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Robb	
  Wolf,	
  what	
  do	
  you	
  know	
  about	
  health?	
  	
  
	
  

                                                                                                                                                            1	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Salad?	
  Carrots,	
  for	
  ugly	
  people.	
  	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        I've	
  never	
  even	
  been	
  there.	
  I'm	
  going	
  to	
  have	
  to	
  go.	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     You	
  haven’t	
  checked	
  this	
  out?	
  Are	
  you	
  serious?	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        No.	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Stop	
  the	
  recording.	
  I	
  think	
  we	
  should	
  take	
  him	
  out,	
  and	
  then	
  we'll	
  -­‐-­‐	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        We	
   have	
   done	
   you	
   so	
   wrong.	
   I	
   feel	
   like	
   I've	
   been	
   unfaithful	
   to	
   you	
   or	
  
                       something.	
  	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        I	
  feel	
  like	
  there's	
  a	
  number	
  of	
  messages	
  related	
  to	
  that	
  in	
  my	
  Facebook	
  
                       queue,	
  but	
  I've	
  tried	
  to	
  avoid	
  Facebook	
  right	
  now,	
  so	
  I'm	
  a	
  little	
  behind.	
  	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     I	
  never	
  went	
  to	
  my	
  Facebook	
  too.	
  I	
  have	
  to	
  apologize	
  to	
  the	
  people	
  that	
  
                       sent	
  me	
  questions	
  on	
  there.	
  I'm	
  just	
  -­‐-­‐	
  I	
  don’t	
  have	
  enough	
  time	
  to	
  get	
  to	
  
                       get	
  to	
  them.	
  So	
  yeah,	
  that's	
  a	
  horrible	
  way	
  to	
  reach	
  me.	
  	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        I	
   also	
   noticed	
   you	
   untag	
   things	
   when	
   people	
   tag	
   you	
   on	
   funny	
   little	
  
                       pictures,	
  Matt.	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Yeah,	
   yeah.	
   I	
   just	
   -­‐-­‐	
   I'm	
   really	
   paranoid	
   about	
   all	
   that	
   stuff	
   and	
   the	
  
                       information	
  that	
  you	
  can	
  get	
  on	
  people.	
  So	
  that	
  page	
  I	
  was	
  forced	
  to	
  start	
  
                       because	
   all	
   of	
   my	
   friends	
   just	
   kept	
   annoying	
   me	
   with	
   the	
   typical	
   message	
  
                       of	
  “You	
  need	
  to	
  start	
  a	
  Facebook	
  page,”	
  and	
  I	
  eventually	
  gave	
  in.	
  But	
  now	
  
                       that	
   page	
   is	
   full	
   of	
   strangers	
   and	
   people	
   that	
   I	
   don’t	
   know	
   that	
   I've	
   never	
  
                       met.	
  So	
  I	
  keep	
  the	
  minimal	
  amount	
  of	
  information	
  on	
  it.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Do	
  you	
  still	
  have	
  the	
  photo	
  tag	
  where	
  Welborn	
  has	
  pancakes	
  on	
  you?	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     No,	
  that's	
  untagged.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Dude,	
  that	
  was	
  some	
  of	
  my	
  best	
  work.	
  I'm	
  hurt.	
  	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        Little	
   did	
   you	
   know,	
   Matt.	
   You're	
   going	
   to	
   be	
   on	
   the	
   internet	
   with	
  
                       pancakes	
  on	
  you.	
  Well,	
  we	
  have	
  like	
  7,000	
  questions	
  for	
  Matt.	
  So	
  we're	
  
                       going	
  to	
  try	
  our	
  best	
  to	
  get	
  through	
  a	
  big	
  chunk	
  of	
  them	
  and	
  the	
  -­‐-­‐	
  we'll	
  
                       probably	
  have	
  to	
  bring	
  Matt	
  back,	
  assuming	
  that	
  Robb	
  and	
  I	
  still	
  have	
  a	
  
                       job	
  after	
  this	
  episode.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        The	
  FCC	
  will	
  step	
  in	
  at	
  some	
  point	
  so....	
  
	
  

                                                                                                                                                          2	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        Okay.	
  Unless	
  you	
  guys	
  have	
  anything	
  else	
  you	
  guys	
  want	
  to	
  talk	
  about,	
  I'd	
  
                       say	
   we	
   just	
   get	
   started.	
   Anything	
   else	
   you	
   want	
   to	
   talk	
   about,	
   Robb	
   or	
  
                       Matt?	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Well,	
  just	
  before	
  we	
  get	
  started	
  I	
  want	
  to	
  mention	
  at	
  the	
  end	
  of	
  where	
  
                       we	
  start,	
  you	
  have	
  to	
  remind	
  me,	
  Andy,	
  I	
  have	
  three	
  questions	
  for	
  Robb,	
  
                       just	
  to	
  make	
  sure	
  he	
  doesn’t	
  get	
  left	
  out	
  in	
  all	
  of	
  this.	
  	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        Ooh.	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     And	
   he	
   has	
   to	
   answer	
   each	
   question	
   correctly,	
   and	
   I'd	
   like	
   to	
   come	
   up	
  
                       with	
  consequences	
  of	
  him	
  getting	
  these	
  wrong.	
  	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        Oh,	
  Jesus!	
  Wow!	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Awesome.	
  Awesome.	
  I'm	
  warming	
  up	
  here.	
  I'm	
  doing	
  my	
  -­‐-­‐	
  I'm	
  stretching	
  
                       as	
  you're	
  -­‐-­‐	
  as	
  you're	
  talking,	
  I'll	
  be	
  stretching	
  and	
  getting	
  warmed	
  up	
  for	
  
                       my	
  challenge	
  here.	
  	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        And	
   just	
   so	
   the	
   listeners	
   know,	
   Robb	
   and	
   I	
   are	
   recording	
   this	
   at	
   6:00	
   a.m.	
  
                       so	
  we're	
  not	
  as	
  show	
  ready	
  as	
  normal	
  so	
  bear	
  with	
  us.	
  Matt	
  is	
  going	
  to	
  
                       save	
  the	
  day	
  for	
  us.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        No	
  excuses,	
  Deas.	
  I'm	
  ready	
  to	
  take	
  my	
  punishment	
  like	
  a	
  man.	
  	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        I	
  know.	
  You’re	
  getting	
  warmed	
  up	
  right	
  now.	
  I	
  like	
  it.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Well,	
  it's	
  just	
  so	
  that	
  the	
  impact	
  isn’t	
  as	
  bad.	
  	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        All	
   right.	
   I	
   will	
   -­‐-­‐	
   some	
   of	
   these	
   questions	
   are	
   rather	
   lengthy,	
   so	
   I'm	
   going	
  
                       to	
  do	
  my	
  best	
  to	
  kind	
  of	
  skirt	
  through	
  some	
  of	
  the	
  details,	
  but	
  obviously	
  
                       they'll	
  all	
  be	
  in	
  the	
  show	
  notes	
  so	
  the	
  listeners	
  can	
  read	
  them.	
  But	
  first,	
  
                       we	
  are	
  going	
  to	
  revisit	
  our	
  friend,	
  John,	
  from	
  podcast	
  57;	
  my	
  friend	
  John	
  
                       who	
  also	
  made	
  comments	
  on	
  my	
  blog	
  which	
  are	
  very	
  interesting.	
  	
  
	
  
	
                     So	
   John	
   says,	
   "I	
   think	
   a	
   discussion	
   on	
   what	
   the	
   re-­‐introduction	
   of	
   foods	
  
                       and	
   the	
   subsequent	
   reactions	
   to	
   them	
   means	
   and	
   why	
   would	
   be	
   very	
  
                       interesting	
  as	
  a	
  podcast	
  topic.	
  The	
  Paleo	
  concept	
  has	
  expanded	
  a	
  lot	
  from	
  
                       the	
  original	
  ‘cavemen	
  did	
  this	
  so	
  you	
  should	
  too’	
  logic	
  of	
  guys	
  like	
  Cordain	
  
                       (another	
  thing	
  mentioned	
  recently	
  on	
  the	
  show,	
  how	
  Robb	
  has	
  become	
  
                       more	
   science	
   orientated	
   because	
   of	
   Matt	
   Lalonde),	
   but	
   I	
   still	
   think	
   at	
  
                       times	
   Robb	
   reverts	
   back	
   to	
   the	
   ‘re-­‐	
   introduce	
   it	
   and	
   see	
   how	
   you	
   feel’	
  
                       logical	
   fallacy	
   too	
   often,	
   because	
   I	
   bet	
   almost	
   any	
   food	
   completely	
  
                       eliminated	
   for	
   30	
   days	
   and	
   then	
   re-­‐introduced	
   would	
   have	
   negative	
  

                                                                                                                                                                3	
  
	
  
                       effects	
  and	
  may	
  take	
  a	
  few	
  months	
  to	
  re-­‐sensitive	
  yourself	
  to.	
  So	
  a	
  talk	
  
                       on	
   why	
   this	
   matters	
   (scientifically	
   preferable	
   rather	
   than	
   anecdotally)	
  
                       would	
   be	
   important.	
   It	
   needs	
   to	
   be	
   more	
   than	
   just	
   ‘gluten	
   makes	
   my	
  
                       joints	
   achy.'	
   I’m	
   very	
   surprised	
   that	
   some	
   of	
   your	
   clients	
   eat	
   gluten.	
   Robb	
  
                       seems	
  to	
  think	
  100%	
  of	
  people	
  should	
  avoid	
  it	
  100%	
  of	
  the	
  time.	
  	
  
	
  
	
                     Another	
   thing	
   is	
   the	
   constant	
   reference	
   to	
   autoimmunity.	
   I	
   get	
   that	
  
                       anecdotally	
   people	
   with	
   these	
   problems	
   see	
   benefits	
   from	
   Paleo,	
   but	
  
                       what	
  relevance	
  is	
  this	
  to	
  people	
  without	
  autoimmune	
  conditions?	
  If	
  dairy	
  
                       aggravates	
   autoimmune	
   stuff,	
   what	
   does	
   this	
   mean?	
   Sometimes	
   it	
   seems	
  
                       like	
   Robb	
   is	
   implying	
   that	
   because	
   people	
   with	
   (crohns,	
   rheumatoid	
  
                       arthritis,	
   coeliac,	
   Hashimoto,	
   etc)	
   get	
   messed	
   up	
   eating	
   a	
   certain	
   food	
  
                       that	
  the	
  food	
  is	
  bad	
  for	
  everyone,	
  but	
  they	
  are	
  a	
  special	
  population,	
  and	
  
                       that’s	
   like	
   comparing	
   the	
   carb	
   needs	
   of	
   a	
   type	
   2	
   diabetic	
   to	
   that	
   of	
   an	
  
                       athlete.	
  	
  
	
  
	
                     Again,	
   I	
   recognize	
   this	
   is	
   a	
   problem	
   of	
   the	
   very	
   broad	
   audience	
   of	
   the	
  
                       podcast,	
   but	
   I	
   think	
   some	
   more	
   clarity	
   on	
   the	
   real	
   underlying	
   WHYs	
   need	
  
                       to	
   be	
   answered.	
   For	
   example	
   the	
   ‘these	
   foods	
   have	
   only	
   been	
   around	
   for	
  
                       10,000	
  years’	
  line,	
  this	
  is	
  assuming	
  a	
  linear	
  evolution,	
  which	
  many	
  experts	
  
                       suggest	
  is	
  not	
  the	
  case.	
  So	
  maybe	
  Robb	
  could	
  discuss	
  why	
  we	
  did	
  or	
  did	
  
                       not	
  evolve	
  more	
  quickly	
  after	
  the	
  invention	
  of	
  agriculture."	
  
	
  
	
                     Man,	
  I	
  missed	
  this	
  question.	
  I	
  totally	
  forgot	
  about	
  this.	
  	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     So	
   there	
   is	
   a	
   lot	
   going	
   on	
   here,	
   and	
   I	
   wanted	
   to	
   readdress	
   this.	
   I	
   think	
  
                       Robb	
  took	
  it	
  part	
  of	
  the	
  way,	
  and	
  I	
  just	
  like	
  to	
  finish	
  it	
  because	
  there's	
  -­‐-­‐	
  
                       it's	
   important.	
   There's	
   a	
   lot	
   of	
   confusion	
   here,	
   and	
   there	
   is	
   stuff	
   that's	
  
                       near	
  and	
  dear	
  to	
  my	
  heart	
  in	
  this	
  question.	
  	
  
	
  
	
                     So	
   John	
   is	
   pointing	
   out	
   things	
   that	
   are	
   correct	
   and	
   other	
   things	
   that	
   I	
  
                       completely	
  disagree	
  with.	
  So	
  the	
  logic	
  employed	
  by	
  many	
  people	
  in	
  the	
  
                       Paleo	
   sphere	
   and	
   many	
   researchers	
   is	
   a	
   huge	
   pet	
   peeve	
   of	
   mine.	
   And	
  
                       John	
   is	
   right	
   for	
   crying	
   foul	
   on	
   that,	
   and	
   Robb	
   is	
   very	
   aware	
   of	
   my	
  
                       disagreement	
  there.	
  So	
  given	
  the	
  best	
  available	
  data,	
  we	
  piece	
  together	
  
                       our	
   best	
   predictions	
   as	
   to	
   what	
   our	
   Paleolithic	
   ancestors	
   and	
   modern	
  
                       hunter-­‐gatherers	
  used	
  to	
  eat.	
  
	
  
	
                     Now,	
   the	
   biomarkers	
   could	
   be	
   measured	
   on	
   the	
   remains	
   of	
   Paleolithic	
  
                       ancestors,	
   and	
   they	
   indicate	
   that	
   they	
   did	
   not	
   suffer	
   from	
   diseases	
   of	
  
                       modern	
   civilization.	
   But	
   that's	
   still	
   limited	
   information.	
   I'm	
   not	
  
                       questioning	
   the	
   science.	
   It's	
   just	
   limited	
   because	
   it's	
   not	
   direct	
  
                       observation	
  of	
  the	
  actual	
  population.	
  	
  
	
  

                                                                                                                                                           4	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        And	
  there's	
  no	
  mechanism	
  there.	
  	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Yes.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        We're	
  not	
  dealing	
  with	
  mechanisms.	
  We	
  have	
  a	
  selection	
  bias.	
  We	
  don’t	
  
                       know	
  what	
  people	
  got	
  lost	
  in	
  the	
  mix.	
  	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     They're	
   huge,	
   yeah,	
   huge	
   selection	
   bias	
   especially	
   for	
   modern	
   hunter-­‐
                       gatherer	
   observations	
   today.	
   So	
   they	
   have	
   also	
   been	
   observed	
   to	
   be	
  
                       mostly	
  free	
  of	
  disease	
  of	
  modern	
  civilizations.	
  But	
  the	
  whole	
  thing	
  in	
  the	
  
                       end	
  is	
  just	
  an	
  observation.	
  And	
  what	
  baffles	
  me	
  is	
  that	
  the	
  Paleo	
  sphere	
  is	
  
                       really	
  good	
  at	
  decrying	
  foul	
  on	
  observational	
  studies,	
  but	
  then	
  uses	
  this	
  
                       logic.	
   And	
   I	
   just	
   -­‐-­‐	
   I	
   can't	
   justify	
   it.	
   These	
   observational	
   studies	
   do	
   not	
  
                       establish	
  cause	
  and	
  effect.	
  	
  
	
  
	
                     So	
   it	
   really	
   drives	
   me	
   nuts	
   when	
   people	
   justify	
   what	
   I'll	
   the	
   Paleo	
   lifestyle	
  
                       or	
   way	
   of	
   eating,	
   by	
   stating	
   that	
   "cavemen	
   and	
   modern	
   hunter-­‐gatherers	
  
                       ate	
  meat,	
  vegetables,	
  fruits,	
  nuts,	
  and	
  seeds,	
  and	
  they	
  did	
  not	
  suffer	
  from	
  
                       the	
  diseases	
  of	
  modern	
  civilization.	
  So	
  you	
  must	
  eat	
  this	
  way	
  too	
  if	
  you	
  
                       want	
   to	
   avoid	
   this	
   disease."	
   That	
   is	
   indeed	
   a	
   logical	
   fallacy,	
   and	
   John	
   is	
  
                       100%	
  correct	
  on	
  that.	
  It	
  can	
  be	
  used	
  to	
  generate	
  hypothesis	
  that	
  should	
  
                       then	
  be	
  tested,	
  but	
  it	
  does	
  not	
  establish	
  cause	
  and	
  effect.	
  	
  
	
  
	
                     One	
   argument	
   actually	
   that	
   gets	
   me	
   even	
   more	
   worked	
   up	
   than	
   the	
  
                       previous	
  one	
  is	
  "our	
  Paleolithic	
  ancestors	
  evolved	
  over	
  millions	
  of	
  years	
  
                       while	
   not	
   consuming	
   grains,	
   legumes,	
   or	
   dairy.	
   So	
   we	
   should	
   not	
  
                       consume	
   these	
   foods	
   because	
   we	
   are	
   not	
   adapted	
   to	
   them."	
   That	
   is	
   an	
  
                       assumption,	
  and	
  it	
  is	
  completely	
  incorrect.	
  The	
  assumption	
  that	
  species	
  is	
  
                       not	
  adapted	
  to	
  a	
  food	
  because	
  it	
  never	
  consumed	
  that	
  food	
  is	
  completely	
  
                       false.	
  	
  
	
  
	
                     There	
   are	
   plenty	
   of	
   examples	
   throughout	
   evolution	
   where	
   a	
   species	
   finds	
  
                       a	
   new	
   source	
   of	
   food	
   and	
   thrives	
   on	
   it.	
   In	
   fact,	
   if	
   you	
   look	
   at	
   the	
  
                       expensive	
   tissue	
   hypothesis,	
   it	
   makes	
   an	
   argument	
   along	
   those	
   lines	
   with	
  
                       respect	
  to	
  human	
  beings	
  and	
  meat	
  consumption,	
  saying	
  that	
  we	
  involved	
  
                       into	
   the	
   species	
   we	
   are	
   now	
   today	
   because	
   our	
   ancestors	
   began	
   eating	
  
                       meat;	
   actually,	
   animal	
   products	
   mainly	
   bone	
   marrow	
   and	
   brains.	
   So	
   I	
  
                       think	
  a	
  better	
  and	
  more	
  accurate	
  statement	
  would	
  be	
  that	
  human	
  beings	
  
                       are	
  not	
  well-­‐adapted	
  to	
  grain	
  and	
  legume	
  consumption,	
  and	
  that	
  is	
  a	
  very	
  
                       different	
  statement,	
  and	
  as	
  far	
  as,	
  I	
  can	
  tell	
  given	
  the	
  research	
  that	
  I've	
  
                       analyzed,	
  that	
  statement	
  is	
  correct.	
  	
  
	
  
	
                     So	
  that	
  being	
  said,	
  there's	
  nothing	
  wrong	
  with	
  Robb's	
  suggestion	
  of	
  using	
  
                       elimination	
   diet	
   to	
   test	
   whether	
   or	
   not	
   people	
   are	
   allergic	
   to	
   certain	
  

                                                                                                                                                          5	
  
	
  
                       foods.	
  He	
  is	
  merely	
  asking	
  people	
  to	
  conduct	
  an	
  experiment	
  of	
  n=1.	
  Sure,	
  
                       it's	
   not	
   statistically	
   significant,	
   but	
   it	
   is	
   a	
   case	
   study,	
   and	
   it	
   is	
   not	
   a	
   logical	
  
                       fallacy.	
  So	
  John	
  is	
  wrong	
  here,	
  like	
  you	
  can	
  run	
  experiments	
  on	
  yourself.	
  
                       Yes,	
  you	
  are	
  the	
  experimenter	
  and	
  the	
  observer;	
  it’s	
  not	
  the	
  best	
  science.	
  
                       You	
   can’t	
   publish	
   that,	
   but	
   you	
   can	
   get	
   some	
   information	
   from	
   that	
   if	
  
                       you're	
  careful.	
  So	
  that's	
  not	
  a	
  logical	
  fallacy.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Hey,	
  Matt,	
  I	
  was	
  talking	
  with	
  Loren	
  Cordain	
  the	
  other	
  day,	
  and	
  they	
  are	
  
                       doing	
   some	
   interesting	
   statistical	
   analysis	
   of	
   the	
   nutrient	
   content	
   of	
   food	
  
                       just	
   like	
   everything	
   under	
   the	
   sun.	
   Like	
   how	
   much	
   B12,	
   B1,	
   zinc,	
  
                       magnesium,	
  and	
  they're	
  creating	
  this	
  giant	
  matrix	
  of	
  this	
  stuff,	
  and	
  then	
  
                       correlating	
  one	
  nutrient	
  with	
  another	
  and	
  getting	
  out	
  into	
  like	
  kind	
  of	
  10	
  
                       factorial	
  type	
  analyses.	
  	
  
	
  
	
                     But	
   one	
   thing	
   that	
   they're	
   finding	
   is	
   that	
   there's	
   definitely	
   a	
   normal	
  
                       distribution.	
   You're	
   not	
   finding	
   -­‐-­‐	
   what	
   we're	
   really	
   not	
   finding	
   is	
   supra	
  
                       physiological	
   levels	
   of	
   different	
   nutrients,	
   which	
   you	
   and	
   I	
   have	
   talked	
  
                       about	
   this,	
   and	
   this	
   part	
   of	
   our	
   renaissance	
   to	
   recommend	
   nutritional	
  
                       supplements	
   to	
   folks.	
   Where	
   can	
   you	
   apply	
   this	
   idea	
   of	
   evolutionary	
  
                       biology	
   as	
   a	
   framework	
   to	
   look	
   at	
   this	
   stuff?	
   I	
   mean	
   when	
   is	
   that	
  
                       statement	
   of	
   like;	
   this	
   is	
   evolutionarily	
   novel,	
   this	
   is	
   what	
   we're	
   using	
  
                       evolutionary	
  biology	
  to	
  form	
  our	
  questions,	
  when	
  or	
  how	
  do	
  we	
  use	
  this	
  
                       to	
   ask	
   a	
   good	
   question	
   and	
   then	
   follow	
   up	
   with	
   some	
   mechanistic	
  
                       research	
  thing?	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     I	
   think	
   that	
   all	
   of	
   it	
   can	
   be	
   used	
   to	
   generate	
   hypotheses	
   and	
   test	
   them.	
  
                       But	
   just	
   acknowledge	
   the	
   limitation	
   of	
   the	
   data.	
   Don’t	
   say	
   it	
   has	
   to	
   be	
  
                       right	
  because	
  it	
  was	
  always	
  done	
  that	
  way.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Got	
  you.	
  	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     It's	
   just	
   like,	
   okay,	
   I'm	
   generating	
   my	
   hypothesis	
   based	
   on	
   this,	
   now	
   I'm	
  
                       going	
   to	
   go	
   out	
   and	
   test	
   it.	
   Another	
   problem	
   that	
   I	
   see	
   actually	
   with	
   a	
   lot	
  
                       of	
   researchers	
   in	
   this	
   field	
   is	
   a	
   huge	
   bias.	
   They	
   are	
   very	
   unscientific	
   in	
   the	
  
                       way	
   that	
   they	
   go	
   about	
   this.	
   They	
   will	
   actually	
   look	
   at	
   either	
   evolution,	
  
                       modern	
  hunter-­‐gatherers	
  or	
  Paleolithic	
  ancestors,	
  assume	
  that	
  what	
  they	
  
                       were	
   doing	
   was	
   correct,	
   and	
   then	
   go	
   find	
   literature	
   to	
   support	
   their	
  
                       contention.	
   And	
   that's	
   just	
   -­‐-­‐	
   it's	
   biased	
   research;	
   it's	
   unscientific,	
   and	
   it's	
  
                       incorrect.	
  And	
  when	
  it	
  comes	
  to	
  the	
  world	
  of	
  nutrition,	
  guess	
  what?	
  You	
  
                       can	
   find	
   just	
   about	
   any	
   literature	
   to	
   support	
   any	
   point	
   so	
   it's	
   a	
   moot	
  
                       exercise.	
  It's	
  not	
  very	
  worthwhile,	
  in	
  my	
  opinion.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        And	
  we	
  see	
  this	
  a	
  little	
  bit	
  just	
  with	
  the	
  understanding	
  of	
  the	
  transition	
  
                       from	
  probably	
  more	
  like	
  big	
  game	
  hunter	
  to	
  really	
  forging	
  centric	
  hunter-­‐

                                                                                                                                                                      6	
  
	
  
                       gatherer	
   as	
   they	
   -­‐-­‐	
   that	
   was	
   my	
   Neanderthal	
   a-­‐go-­‐go	
   post	
   that	
   diversified	
  
                       food	
   may	
   not	
   even	
   be	
   all	
   that	
   adaptive.	
   It	
   may	
   be	
   -­‐-­‐	
   or	
   a	
   sign	
   of	
   a	
  
                       beneficial	
   situation.	
   It	
   actually	
   is	
   a	
   sign	
   that	
   we've	
   overhunted	
   an	
   area,	
  
                       and	
  now	
  we’re	
  needing	
  to	
  get	
  craftier	
  with	
  the	
  type	
  of	
  food	
  we're	
  eating.	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Yeah.	
  And	
  then	
  ate	
  the	
  food	
  that	
  was	
  available,	
  and	
  if	
  they	
  starved;	
  they	
  
                       would	
  just	
  -­‐-­‐	
  they	
  would	
  go	
  for	
  stuff	
  that	
  was	
  low	
  on	
  the	
  food	
  chain	
  like	
  
                       seeds.	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Cool.	
   Did	
   you	
   dissect	
   this	
   one	
   to	
   your	
   satisfaction	
   or	
   you	
   have	
   anything	
  
                       else	
  you	
  want	
  to	
  point	
  out?	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     I'm	
  not	
  done.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Oh,	
  okay.	
  Just	
  checking.	
  I'm	
  checking.	
  I'm	
  making	
  sure.	
  I'm	
  making	
  sure.	
  	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Yeah.	
   So	
   I	
   mean	
   Robb	
   and	
   I	
   -­‐-­‐	
   you	
   and	
   I	
   have	
   been	
   friends	
   for	
   years	
   now.	
  
                       You	
   call	
   me	
   regularly	
   to	
   ask	
   what	
   I'm	
   reading,	
   what	
   I'm	
   thinking	
   about.	
  
                       And	
  I	
  think	
  one	
  of	
  the	
  reasons	
  why	
  we	
  became	
  good	
  friends	
  is	
  because	
  
                       Robb	
  behaves	
  very	
  much	
  like	
  a	
  responsible	
  scientist.	
  He	
  doesn’t	
  do	
  any	
  of	
  
                       the	
   things	
   that	
   I	
   just	
   described.	
   He's	
   constantly	
   looking	
   to	
   improve	
   his	
  
                       knowledge	
  and	
  think	
  about	
  nutrition.	
  Most	
  importantly,	
  he'll	
  change	
  his	
  
                       mind	
   when	
   he's	
   faced	
   with	
   legitimate	
   contradictory	
   evidence,	
   and	
   I	
   see	
  
                       too	
  many	
  people	
  in	
  the	
  Paleo	
  sphere	
  just	
  stick	
  to	
  their	
  guns	
  and	
  not	
  move	
  
                       in	
  any	
  direction	
  when	
  faced	
  with	
  contradictory	
  evidence.	
  	
  
	
  
	
                     So	
  let	
  me	
  discuss	
  an	
  example	
  of	
  that	
  where	
  Robb	
  has	
  changed	
  his	
  mind.	
  
                       So	
   Robb	
   used	
   to	
   be	
   highly	
   pro	
   low-­‐carb	
   and	
   mostly	
   for	
   using	
   carb	
  
                       sparingly	
   post	
   workout.	
   But	
   Robb	
   and	
   I	
   talked	
   extensively	
   while	
   he	
   was	
  
                       proofreading	
   -­‐-­‐	
   while	
   I	
   was	
   proofreading	
   the	
   book,	
   and	
   I	
   mentioned	
   to	
  
                       him	
  that	
  I	
  wasn't	
  convinced	
  glucose	
  from	
  starch	
  was	
  problematic.	
  There	
  
                       were	
  some	
  confounding	
  factors	
  with	
  low-­‐carb	
  diets,	
  and	
  that	
  eliminating	
  
                       carbohydrates	
  also	
  minimizes	
  the	
  amount	
  of	
  fructose,	
  grains	
  and	
  legumes	
  
                       that	
  you	
  get	
  exposed	
  to.	
  	
  
	
  
	
                     And	
   then	
   there's	
   a	
   bunch	
   of	
   overfeeding	
   studies	
   that	
   have	
   shown	
   that	
  
                       fructose	
   is	
   far	
   more	
   problematic	
   than	
   glucose.	
   And	
   I	
   can	
   give	
   these	
  
                       references	
  to	
  Andy,	
  and	
  he	
  can	
  put	
  them	
  in	
  the	
  show	
  notes,	
  but	
  I	
  have	
  a	
  
                       bunch	
   of	
   references	
   here.	
   And	
   yes,	
   I	
   know	
   that	
   there	
   are	
   short-­‐term	
  
                       studies	
  with	
  large	
  doses	
  of	
  fructose,	
  but	
  researchers	
  are	
  limited	
  because	
  
                       they	
  know	
  that	
  fructose	
  is	
  harmful	
  so	
  they	
  can't	
  run	
  a	
  long-­‐term	
  analysis	
  
                       of	
  its	
  effects	
  and	
  completely	
  destroy	
  people.	
  But	
  long-­‐term	
  analyses	
  have	
  
                       been	
  -­‐-­‐	
  of	
  moderate	
  fructose	
  doses	
  have	
  been	
  done	
  in	
  rats,	
  and	
  they	
  are	
  
                       also	
  detrimental.	
  	
  

                                                                                                                                                                   7	
  
	
  
	
  
	
     Anyways,	
   after	
   a	
   long	
   back	
   and	
   forth,	
   Robb	
   and	
   I	
   eventually	
   -­‐-­‐	
   Robb	
  
       eventually	
   changed	
   his	
   stance	
   on	
   carbohydrates,	
   and	
   I	
   think	
   he	
   agrees	
  
       with	
  me	
  now	
  that	
  starch	
  is	
  okay,	
  and	
  that	
  fructose	
  is	
  a	
  dose-­‐dependent	
  
       hepatoxin	
  that	
  doesn’t	
  necessarily	
  need	
  to	
  be	
  included	
  in	
  the	
  diet.	
  There	
  
       is	
  no	
  such	
  thing	
  as	
  an	
  essential	
  carbohydrate.	
  Your	
  brain	
  does	
  need	
  some	
  
       glucose,	
  but	
  your	
  body	
  can	
  make	
  it	
  from	
  amino	
  acids	
  and	
  glycerol.	
  So	
  why	
  
       not	
  just	
  consume	
  the	
  one	
  carb	
  that	
  your	
  cells	
  can	
  actually	
  burn,	
  which	
  is	
  
       glucose,	
  and	
  then	
  minimize	
  the	
  other	
  one	
  that	
  can't	
  be	
  burned?	
  	
  
	
  
	
     So	
   like	
   I	
   said,	
   I	
   see	
   too	
   many	
   people	
   in	
   the	
   Paleo	
   sphere	
   stick	
   to	
   basic	
  
       prescription	
  of,	
  if	
  it	
  wasn’t	
  consumed	
  before	
  the	
  dawn	
  of	
  agriculture,	
  you	
  
       can't	
   eat	
   it.	
   And	
   Robb	
   is	
   far	
   more	
   balanced	
   in	
   his	
   approach.	
   So	
   that's	
  
       another	
   area	
   where	
   I'll	
   disagree	
   with	
   John.	
   Now,	
   I	
   want	
   to	
   address	
   the	
  
       gluten	
  bit	
  and	
  the	
  autoimmune	
  disease.	
  So	
  I	
  view	
  the	
  gluten	
  argument	
  as	
  
       a	
   poor	
   justification	
   for	
   the	
   avoidance	
   of	
   grains	
   very	
   much	
   in	
   the	
   same	
  
       way	
   as	
   the	
   cavemen	
   argument.	
   It's	
   just	
   like	
   it's	
   an	
   incomplete	
   lazy	
  
       argument.	
   It's	
   a	
   one	
   liner.	
   Gluten	
   is	
   death.	
   It's	
   stupid.	
   It's	
   not	
   true,	
   but	
  
       you	
   can	
   throw	
   it	
   out	
   there,	
   and	
   you'll	
   scare	
   people,	
   and	
   they'll	
   believe	
  
       you,	
  and	
  you'll	
  get	
  them	
  to	
  avoid	
  gluten.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     So	
   here's	
   what's	
   going	
   on.	
   It	
   is	
   true	
   that	
   gliadin	
   derived	
   peptides	
   make	
  
       their	
  way	
  to	
  the	
  gut	
  incompletely	
  digested.	
  But	
  there	
  is	
  a	
  lot	
  of	
  digestion	
  
       that	
   occurs	
   in	
   the	
   gut	
   itself.	
   So	
   it's	
   unreasonable	
   to	
   expect	
   that	
  
       everything	
   in	
   there	
   is	
   going	
   to	
   be	
   fully	
   digested.	
   It	
   has	
   been	
   shown	
   in	
  
       individuals	
   without	
   coeliac	
   disease	
   -­‐-­‐	
   in	
   individuals	
   with	
   coeliac	
   disease,	
  
       the	
   gliadin	
   derived	
   peptides	
   are	
   absorbed	
   at	
   the	
   surface	
   of	
   the	
  
       enterocytes	
  and	
  then	
  fully	
  digestive.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     However,	
   in	
   patients	
   with	
   coeliac	
   disease,	
   the	
   peptides	
   are	
   not	
   fully	
  
       digested,	
   and	
   they	
   stimulate	
   the	
   release	
   of	
   zonulin	
   by	
   binding	
   to	
   a	
  
       receptor	
  called	
  CXCR3.	
  Zonulin	
  then	
  dissolves	
  the	
  tight	
  junctions	
  between	
  
       the	
   enterocytes	
   and	
   that	
   increases	
   intestinal	
   permeability.	
   There's	
   an	
  
       ensuing	
  cascade	
  of	
  events	
  that	
  results	
  in	
  the	
  formation	
  of	
  like	
  a	
  chimera	
  
       between	
  gliadin	
  derived	
  peptides	
  an	
  enzyme	
  called	
  transglutaminase	
  that	
  
       was	
  released	
  to	
  help	
  prepare	
  the	
  enterocytes.	
  And	
  then	
  that	
  chimera	
  is	
  
       recognized	
  as	
  foreign	
  by	
  the	
  immune	
  system	
  and	
  sets	
  off	
  an	
  autoimmune	
  
       disease,	
   and	
   the	
   immune	
   system	
   melts	
   and	
   responds	
   against	
   the	
  
       enterocytes	
  because	
  they're	
  the	
  source	
  of	
  that	
  transglutaminase.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     So	
   the	
   picture	
   is	
   not	
   complete	
   by	
   far,	
   but	
   I	
   have	
   already	
   gone	
   into	
   too	
  
       many	
   details	
   on	
   that.	
   So	
   gluten	
   is	
   part	
   of	
   the	
   family	
   of	
   proteins	
   called	
  
       prolamines;	
   they're	
   found	
   in	
   all	
   grains.	
   And	
   the	
   autoimmune	
   diseases	
  
       that	
  have	
  been	
  tested	
  for	
  the	
  presence	
  of	
  the	
  leaky	
  gut,	
  all	
  present	
  with	
  

                                                                                                                                           8	
  
	
  
                       the	
  leaky	
  gut.	
  So	
  not	
  all	
  autoimmune	
  diseases	
  have	
  been	
  tested	
  for	
  the	
  
                       presence	
  of	
  leaky	
  gut,	
  but	
  the	
  ones	
  that	
  have	
  tested	
  been	
  tested	
  all	
  show	
  
                       that	
   the	
   leaky	
   gut	
   is	
   there.	
   So	
   the	
   avoidance	
   of	
   all	
   grains	
   is	
   a	
   good	
   advice	
  
                       for	
  people	
  with	
  autoimmune	
  disease.	
  	
  
	
  
	
                     But	
   why	
   should	
   normal	
   people	
   care?	
   Well,	
   it	
   turns	
   out	
   that	
   there	
   is	
   a	
  
                       confounding	
   factor	
   here.	
   People	
   are	
   looking	
   at	
   this	
   from	
   a	
   nutritionism	
  
                       standpoint.	
  Gluten	
  is	
  just	
  not	
  something	
  that	
  you	
  absorb	
  in	
  itself	
  unless	
  
                       you	
   are	
   eating	
   like	
   seitan,	
   for	
   example.	
   When	
   you	
   eat	
   grains,	
   you're	
  
                       getting	
   gluten;	
   you're	
   getting	
   a	
   variety	
   of	
   other	
   anti-­‐nutrients	
   that	
   are	
  
                       going	
   to	
   cause	
   some	
   gut	
   dysfunction	
   and	
   compromise	
   intestinal	
  
                       permeability,	
   and	
   they	
   are	
   not	
   population	
   specific.	
   So	
   they	
   affect	
  
                       everyone.	
   But	
   it	
   turns	
   out	
   that	
   some	
   individuals	
   with	
   autoimmune	
  
                       diseases	
  are	
  going	
  be	
  hyper-­‐responders.	
  	
  
	
  
	
                     So	
  those	
  anti-­‐nutrients	
  are	
  lectins.	
  In	
  the	
  lectin	
  family	
  you've	
  got	
  wheat	
  
                       germ	
  agglutinin,	
  phytohaemagglutinin,	
  soybean	
  agglutinin,	
  peanut	
  lectin,	
  
                       and	
  concanavalin	
  A	
  that	
  are	
  the	
  most	
  studied.	
  Then	
  you	
  have	
  phytic	
  acids	
  
                       and	
   phytates	
   which	
   inhibit	
   digestive	
   enzymes	
   and	
   absorption.	
   And	
   then	
  
                       you	
  have	
  saponins	
  which	
  also	
  contribute	
  to	
  the	
  leaky	
  gut.	
  None	
  of	
  those	
  
                       are	
   population	
   specific.	
   Like	
   I	
   said,	
   there	
   might	
   be	
   hyper-­‐responders	
   in	
  
                       people	
  with	
  autoimmune	
  disease,	
  but	
  they're	
  not	
  population	
  specific.	
  Gut	
  
                       dysfunction	
  is	
  going	
  to	
  impair	
  digestion	
  and	
  absorption	
  of	
  nutrients.	
  It's	
  
                       going	
  to	
  cause	
  low	
  level	
  systemic	
  inflammation	
  by	
  allowing	
  gram	
  negative	
  
                       bacteria	
  into	
  the	
  bloodstream.	
  	
  
	
  
	
                     That's	
   another	
   precipitating	
   factor	
   for	
   other	
   autoimmune	
   diseases,	
   in	
  
                       fact.	
   And	
   interestingly,	
   the	
   leaky	
   gut	
   is	
   now	
   being	
   linked	
   to	
   various	
  
                       aspects	
   of	
   the	
   metabolic	
  syndrome.	
   So	
  we've	
  got	
  non-­‐alcoholic	
   fatty	
   liver	
  
                       disease	
   that	
   is	
   directly	
   linked	
   to	
   endotoxin	
   translocation;	
   that's	
  
                       lipopolysacharides	
   from	
   the	
   gram	
   negative	
   bacteria	
   that	
   are	
   making	
   their	
  
                       way	
   to	
   the	
   liver	
   and	
   causing	
   liver	
   damage.	
   And	
   you	
   also	
   have	
  
                       hypercholesterolemia	
  because	
  it	
  turns	
  out	
  that	
  LDL	
  particles	
  can	
  bind	
  and	
  
                       neutralize	
  the	
  lipopolysacharides.	
  Lipopolysacharide	
  is	
  something	
  that	
  is	
  
                       included	
  in	
  the	
  membrane	
  of	
  gram	
  negative	
  bacteria.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        And	
   we	
   see	
   kind	
   of	
   a	
   wacky	
   adaptation	
   with	
   that	
   in	
   acute	
   sepsis	
   where	
  
                       we	
  see	
  like	
  a	
  crashing	
  -­‐-­‐	
  	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     That's	
  right.	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        -­‐-­‐	
  in	
  the	
  cholesterol	
  levels	
  -­‐-­‐	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     That's	
  right.	
  	
  

                                                                                                                                                               9	
  
	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        -­‐-­‐	
   like	
   over	
   chronic	
   exposure,	
   we	
   see	
   the	
   cholesterol	
   levels	
   pushed	
   up	
  
                       from	
  that.	
  It	
  was	
  kind	
  of	
  an	
  interesting	
  thing	
  that	
  we	
  track	
  down	
  on	
  that.	
  	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Yeah.	
   So	
   if	
   that's	
   not	
   enough,	
   then	
   add	
   to	
   that	
   effect	
   that	
   grains	
   and	
  
                       legumes	
  have	
  poor	
  nutrient	
  density.	
  I	
  just	
  cannot	
  think	
  of	
  a	
  good	
  reason	
  
                       to	
   eat	
   these	
   foods,	
   but	
   I	
   can	
   imagine	
   many	
   mechanisms	
   by	
   which	
   the	
  
                       avoidance	
   of	
   grains	
   and	
   legumes	
   would	
   improve	
   health	
   and	
   performance	
  
                       in	
  almost	
  everyone	
  but	
  a	
  select	
  few	
  genetically-­‐gifted	
  individuals.	
  And	
  the	
  
                       term	
   "genetically-­‐gifted"	
   is	
   debatable	
   here	
   because	
   I'm	
   not	
   convinced	
  
                       that	
  tolerance	
  of	
  grains	
  is	
  a	
  good	
  thing	
  given	
  the	
  grain	
  agriculture	
  is	
  not	
  
                       sustainable.	
  So	
  there	
  is	
  another	
  factor	
  for	
  you.	
  	
  
	
  
	
                     So	
  I'm	
  going	
  to	
  -­‐-­‐	
  I'm	
  done	
  at	
  this	
  point,	
  but	
  I'm	
  going	
  to	
  end	
  this	
  whole	
  
                       thing	
   with	
   a	
   quick	
   note	
   on	
   dairy	
   because	
   he	
   mentions	
   dairy,	
   and	
   there	
  
                       was	
  one	
  question	
  that	
  someone	
  asked	
  me	
  to	
  mention	
  where	
  I	
  disagreed	
  
                       with	
   like	
   the	
   typical	
   Paleo	
   formula.	
   And	
   dairy	
   is	
   one	
   of	
   them.	
   Milk	
   causes	
  
                       a	
   substantial	
   insulin	
   spike.	
   The	
   insulin	
   index	
   for	
   whole	
   milk	
   is	
   140	
   and	
   for	
  
                       skim	
   milk	
   is	
   148.	
   Actually,	
   no,	
   it's	
   148	
   and	
   140	
   for	
   skim	
   milk,	
   and	
   that's	
  
                       because	
   of	
   a	
   specific	
   combination	
   of	
   carbohydrates	
   and	
   proteins	
   that	
   are	
  
                       in	
   there	
   not	
   because	
   of	
   the	
   fat.	
   But	
   when	
   you	
   look	
   at	
   cheese	
   and	
   non-­‐
                       sweetened	
  yogurts,	
  you	
  get	
  much	
  lower	
  insulin	
  indices.	
  	
  
	
  
	
                     So	
   for	
   cheese	
   you're	
   getting	
   something	
   that's	
   about	
   45	
   which	
   is	
   very	
  
                       reasonable	
  and	
  would	
  be	
  lower	
  than,	
  say,	
  white	
  fish	
  that's	
  51.	
  So	
  I	
  think	
  
                       that	
  some	
  fermented	
  dairy	
  where	
  the	
  lactose	
  has	
  been	
  eliminated	
  is	
  okay	
  
                       for	
   people	
   who	
   do	
   not	
   have	
   autoimmune	
   diseases.	
   I	
   would	
   not	
   make	
   it	
  
                       the	
  majority	
  of	
  my	
  calories.	
  There	
  are	
  other	
  problems	
  there,	
  and	
  I'm	
  not	
  
                       sure	
   fermentation	
   eliminates	
   them,	
   but	
   I	
   think	
   that	
   they	
   are	
   okay	
   for	
  
                       people	
   who	
   do	
   not	
   have	
   autoimmune	
   diseases.	
   I'm	
   not	
   sure	
   if	
   Robb	
  
                       wants	
  to	
  weigh	
  in	
  on	
  that.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        I've	
  been	
  talking	
  with	
  Chris	
  Kresser,	
  and	
  he	
  has	
  been	
  pinging	
  me	
  on	
  this	
  
                       also.	
  And	
  his	
  deal	
  is	
  basically	
  that,	
  so	
  long	
  as	
  we've	
  got	
  intact	
  gut	
  health	
  
                       that	
  grass-­‐fed	
  dairy	
  is	
  probably	
  a	
  benefit	
  and	
  not	
  a	
  problem.	
  	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Yeah,	
  the	
  grass-­‐fed	
  being	
  key	
  here	
  because	
  -­‐-­‐	
  don't	
  get	
  the	
  low-­‐fat	
  dairy	
  
                       that	
  -­‐-­‐	
  one	
  of	
  the	
  benefits	
  of	
  full-­‐fat	
  dairy	
  is	
  that	
  you're	
  getting	
  quality	
  fat	
  
                       especially	
   if	
   it	
   comes	
   from	
   grass-­‐fed	
   animals.	
   So	
   don’t	
   get	
   the	
   low-­‐fat	
  
                       stuff.	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Get	
   CLA	
   and	
   all	
   kinds	
   of	
   carotenoids	
   associated	
   with	
   the	
   lipids	
   and	
   all	
  
                       that.	
   Chris	
   pulled	
   in	
   some	
   -­‐-­‐	
   not	
   epidemiological	
   but	
   some	
   kind	
   of	
  
                       anthropological	
   observational	
   type	
   stuff	
   similar	
   to	
   the	
   argument,	
   well,	
  

                                                                                                                                                       10	
  
	
  
                       meat	
   causes	
   cancer.	
   And	
   then	
   just	
   observationally,	
   we	
   look	
   at	
   the	
   Inuit	
  
                       and	
   it's	
   like,	
   well,	
   they're	
   suspiciously	
   skinny	
   on	
   cancer;	
   again,	
   very	
  
                       observational,	
   but	
   just	
   kind	
   of	
   one	
   of	
   those	
   point-­‐counterpoint	
   kind	
   of	
  
                       gigs.	
   And	
   Chris	
   made	
   the	
   point	
   that	
   you	
   see	
   some	
   really	
   very	
   healthy	
  
                       populations	
  that	
  have	
  some	
  heavy	
  dairying	
  practices	
  and	
  a	
  suspicious	
  lack	
  
                       of	
  cardiovascular	
  disease,	
  cancer,	
  all	
  the	
  standard	
  kind	
  of	
  stuff.	
  	
  
	
  
	
                     For	
  me	
  what	
  we've	
  seen	
  with	
  the	
  folks	
  that	
  I've	
  worked	
  with,	
  and	
  I	
  don’t	
  
                       know	
  if	
  it's	
  a	
  difference	
  in	
  the	
  type	
  of	
  grass-­‐fed	
  dairy	
  that	
  folks	
  can	
  get	
  or	
  
                       what	
  the	
  story	
  is.	
  I	
  still	
  seem	
  to	
  see	
  some	
  inflammation.	
  I	
  still	
  seem	
  to	
  see	
  
                       some	
   allergy	
   type	
   stuff.	
   But	
   again,	
   are	
   these	
   folks	
   completely	
   healthy	
  
                       with	
   their	
   gut	
   integrity?	
   Do	
   they	
   still	
   have	
   some	
   dysbiosis?	
   Is	
   the	
   base	
  
                       level	
  of	
  stress	
  that	
  they	
  experience	
  a	
  problem?	
  	
  
	
  
	
                     There's	
   still	
   something	
   a	
   little	
   bit	
   odd	
   there	
   more	
   often	
   than	
   not,	
   but	
   this	
  
                       has	
   always	
   been	
   my	
   point	
   with	
   dairy	
   which	
   is	
   eliminate	
   it	
   initially,	
   get	
  
                       healthy,	
   particularly	
   if	
   you	
   have	
   any	
   types	
   of	
   signs	
   and	
   symptoms	
   and	
  
                       inflammation,	
  reintroduce	
  and	
  see	
  what	
  the	
  heck	
  happens.	
  Which	
  again	
  
                       is	
   an	
   n=1	
   but	
   that's	
   where	
   dairy	
   has	
   been	
   in	
   my	
   gray	
   area.	
   Between	
  
                       talking	
   with	
   Matt,	
   between	
   talking	
   with	
   Chris,	
   I'll	
   put	
   it	
   into	
   a	
   lighter	
  
                       shade	
  of	
  gray.	
  But	
  again,	
  with	
  the	
  caveat	
  that	
  trying	
  to	
  find	
  those	
  grass-­‐
                       fed	
  sources,	
  sounds	
  like	
  fermented	
  is	
  probably	
  better	
  than	
  non	
  and	
  -­‐-­‐	
  	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Yeah,	
  with	
  just	
  milk	
  and	
  even	
  grass-­‐fed	
  animal.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Yeah.	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Absolutely	
  not.	
  And	
  then	
  I	
  also	
  put	
  it	
  in	
  a	
  gray	
  area.	
  I	
  was	
  talking	
  to	
  you	
  
                       the	
  other	
  day	
  and	
  mentioning	
  that	
  beta	
  and	
  gamma	
  casein	
  have	
  a	
  really	
  
                       high	
  proline	
  content	
  and	
  may	
  be	
  difficult	
  to	
  digest	
  in	
  the	
  same	
  way	
  the	
  
                       prolamine	
   proteins	
   such	
   gliadin	
   are	
   difficult	
   to	
   digest.	
   So	
   that's	
   why	
   we	
  
                       say	
  for	
  people	
  with	
  autoimmune	
  disease,	
  it's	
  a	
  no-­‐no.	
  And	
  then	
  there's	
  a	
  
                       lot	
   of	
   histamine	
   released	
   to	
   in	
   response	
   to	
   casein	
   ingestion	
   in	
   certain	
  
                       folks	
   that	
   may	
   explain	
   some	
   of	
   the	
   inflammation	
   that	
   you're	
   seeing.	
   So	
  
                       there	
   are	
   other	
   problems	
   with	
   it.	
   But	
   like	
   I	
   said,	
   fermented	
   dairy	
   is	
   a	
  
                       lesser	
  of	
  the	
  evils	
  there.	
  Yeah.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Andy	
  Deas,	
  thoughts	
  or	
  are	
  you	
  in	
  shock	
  and	
  awe?	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        I'm	
   not	
   even	
   going	
   to	
   add	
   anything	
   because	
   that	
   is	
   the	
   longest	
   answer	
   to	
  
                       a	
   question	
   I	
   ever	
   had,	
   and	
   I	
   thought	
   that	
   was	
   excellent.	
   But	
   we	
   got	
   to	
  
                       keep	
  the	
  train	
  moving.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        That	
  may	
  be	
  the	
  show.	
  This	
  is	
  going	
  to	
  be	
  a	
  15-­‐part	
  Matt	
  Lalonde	
  piece.	
  	
  

                                                                                                                                                     11	
  
	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        Matt,	
  it	
  will	
  be	
  like	
  52,	
  and	
  we’ll	
  still	
  be	
  working	
  on	
  this.	
  All	
  right.	
  So	
  we	
  
                       move	
   on.	
   We	
   got	
   a	
   question	
   from	
   our	
   friend,	
   Ben.	
   He	
   says,	
   "Matt,	
   I’ve	
  
                       been	
   looking	
   forward	
   to	
   seeing	
   you	
   on	
   the	
   show	
   for	
   some	
   time	
   now!	
   A	
  
                       few	
   questions	
   from	
   a	
   fellow	
   Canadian:	
   	
   1)	
   Could	
   you	
   please	
   explain	
   the	
  
                       difference	
   between	
   physiological	
   insulin	
   resistance	
   and	
   pathological	
  
                       insulin	
   resistance?	
   I	
   think	
   this	
   is	
   something	
   that	
   gets	
   very	
   mixed	
   up	
   not	
  
                       only	
  in	
  the	
  mainstream,	
  but	
  in	
  the	
  low-­‐carb/paleo	
  community."	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Yeah,	
  that's	
  a	
  goody.	
  	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Yeah,	
  yeah.	
  Ben	
  must	
  be	
  a	
  CFer	
  who	
  likes	
  to	
  rain	
  down	
  the	
  pain	
  or	
  have	
  
                       pain	
   rain	
   down	
   on	
   him	
   because	
   this	
   is	
   going	
   to	
   be	
   painful.	
   So	
   we	
   might	
  
                       lose	
  some	
  listeners	
  there,	
  and	
  some	
  of	
  you	
  might	
  fall	
  asleep.	
  But	
  yeah,	
  I'll	
  
                       address	
   this.	
   So	
   here's	
   a	
   question:	
   Would	
   a	
   low	
   carbohydrate,	
   high	
   fat	
  
                       diet	
  induce	
  insulin	
  resistance	
  in	
  a	
  human	
  being?	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Yes.	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Yes,	
   it	
   would.	
   Is	
   it	
   pathogenic?	
   No,	
   it's	
   not.	
   And	
   I'll	
   try	
   to	
   get	
   that	
   point	
  
                       across.	
   A	
   good	
   paper	
   to	
   look	
   at	
   is	
   one	
   called	
   "Defective	
   short-­‐term	
  
                       starvation	
   versus	
   high-­‐fat	
   diet	
   on	
   intramyocellular	
   triglyceride	
  
                       accumulation	
   and	
   insulin	
   resistance	
   in	
   physically	
   fit	
   men."	
   It	
   was	
  
                       published	
  in	
  Exp.	
  Physiol	
  2006	
  Volume	
  91(4),	
  page	
  693	
  to	
  703.	
  The	
  study	
  
                       compared	
   the	
   effect	
   of	
   short-­‐term	
   starvation	
   and	
   a	
   high-­‐fat	
   diet	
   on	
  
                       insulin	
  resistance	
  and	
  the	
  accumulation	
  of	
  IMTGs.	
  They	
  are	
  also	
  known	
  as	
  
                       intramuscular	
  triglycerides,	
  not	
  just	
  intramyocellular	
  triglycerides.	
  	
  
	
  
	
                     So	
  it	
  turns	
  out	
  that	
  both	
  diets	
  had	
  similar	
  effects,	
  and	
  the	
  only	
  common	
  
                       denominator	
   was	
   carbohydrates	
   scarcity.	
   So	
   they	
   starved	
   people.	
   They	
  
                       put	
   people	
   on	
   a	
   high-­‐fat	
   diet.	
   And	
   they	
   measured	
   the	
   level	
   of	
   insulin	
  
                       resistance,	
   and	
   they	
   were	
   the	
   same,	
   lo	
   and	
   behold.	
   So	
   what's	
   going	
   on	
  
                       here?	
   Well,	
   the	
   authors	
   in	
   the	
   paper	
   discussed	
   this	
   at	
   length,	
   and	
   they're	
  
                       like,	
   "This	
   has	
   to	
   be	
   a	
   normal	
   physiological	
   adaptation	
   to	
   carbohydrate	
  
                       restriction."	
  	
  
	
  
	
                     So	
  why	
  would	
  the	
  body	
  do	
  that?	
  Well,	
  it	
  turns	
  out	
  that	
  -­‐-­‐	
  I	
  mean	
  there	
  are	
  
                       a	
   lot	
   of	
   misconceptions	
   here,	
   but	
   the	
   brain	
   does	
   need	
   carbohydrate.	
   It	
  
                       doesn’t	
   only	
   consume	
   carbohydrate.	
   That's	
   not	
   true.	
   But	
   it	
   does	
   need	
  
                       carbohydrate.	
   The	
   brain	
   can	
   survive	
   on	
   a	
   mixture	
   that	
   is	
   as	
   low	
   as	
   25%	
  
                       glucose	
  and	
  about	
  75%	
  ketone	
  bodies.	
  So	
  when	
  ketone	
  is	
  in	
  short	
  supply,	
  
                       the	
   body	
   is	
   going	
   to	
   turn	
   on	
   insulin	
   resistance	
   in	
   the	
   muscles	
   to	
   make	
  
                       sure	
  that	
  they	
  don’t	
  take	
  up	
  any	
  of	
  the	
  carbohydrate,	
  any	
  of	
  the	
  glucose	
  
                       and	
  to	
  make	
  sure	
  that	
  the	
  brain	
  gets	
  all	
  of	
  it.	
  	
  

                                                                                                                                                              12	
  
	
  
	
  
	
     So	
   it's	
   just	
   a	
   spare	
   glucose	
   for	
   the	
   brain.	
   The	
   muscles	
   are	
   going	
   to	
   then	
  
       accumulate	
  lipid	
  stores	
  in	
  a	
  similar	
  way	
  to	
  what	
  they	
  do	
  when	
  glucose	
  is	
  
       around	
   and	
   they	
   store	
   of	
   glycogen.	
   It's	
   just	
   this	
   time	
   they	
   are	
  
       accumulating	
  lipids	
  so	
  you're	
  going	
  to	
  see	
  intramyocellular	
  triglycerides.	
  
       What's	
   interesting	
   is	
   that	
   you	
   also	
   see	
   IMTGs	
   and	
   insulin	
   resistance	
   in	
  
       type	
  2	
  diabetes,	
  but	
  it's	
  in	
  a	
  different	
  context.	
  And	
  I'll	
  get	
  to	
  that	
  a	
  little	
  
       later.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     So	
  insulin	
  resistance	
  alone	
  does	
  not	
  define	
  type	
  2	
  diabetes,	
  right?	
  Insulin	
  
       resistance	
   in	
   type	
   2	
   diabetes	
   is	
   accompanied	
   by	
   hyperglycemia,	
  
       hyperinsulinemia	
   and	
   then	
   a	
   host	
   of	
   other	
   factors.	
   So	
   the	
   insulin	
  
       resistance	
   that	
   results	
   from	
   a	
   low	
   carbohydrate	
   or	
   ketogenic	
   diet	
   is	
  
       merely	
  intended	
  to	
  spare	
  glucose	
  for	
  the	
  brain.	
  It	
  is	
  not	
  pathogenic.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     Unfortunately,	
  and	
  Robb	
  has	
  covered	
  this	
  in	
  a	
  previous	
  podcast,	
  if	
  you	
  do	
  
       test	
   these	
   people	
   with	
   the	
   glucose	
   tolerance	
   test,	
   they	
   will	
   fail	
   not	
   just	
  
       because	
   their	
   muscles	
   are	
   insulin	
   resistant	
   to	
   spare	
   glucose	
   for	
   the	
   brain,	
  
       but	
   also	
   because	
   pancreatic	
   glucokinase	
   has	
   been	
   down	
   regulated	
  
       because	
   it's	
   not	
   needed	
   as	
   much,	
   and	
   pancreatic	
   glucokinase	
   senses	
  
       glucose	
  in	
  blood.	
  So	
  their	
  ability	
  to	
  sense	
  glucose	
  is	
  down	
  regulated.	
  Their	
  
       muscles	
   are	
   insulin	
   resistant.	
   You	
   give	
   those	
   people	
   a	
   glucose	
   tolerance	
  
       test.	
  Their	
  blood	
  glucose	
  is	
  going	
  to	
  skyrocket,	
  and	
  it's	
  going	
  to	
  stay	
  there	
  
       for	
   a	
   long	
   time,	
   and	
   it's	
   a	
   really	
   irresponsible	
   practice,	
   in	
   my	
   opinion.	
   It	
  
       has	
  to	
  stop.	
  You	
  should	
  not	
  do	
  that	
  to	
  people.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     So	
   insulin	
   in	
   itself	
   is	
   not	
   necessarily	
   pathogenic.	
   It	
   has	
   to	
   be	
   put	
   into	
  
       context.	
   Individuals	
   on	
   a	
   low	
   carbohydrate	
   diet,	
   like	
   I	
   said,	
   are	
   going	
   to	
  
       fail	
  this	
  glucose	
  tolerance	
  test.	
  But	
  what	
  most	
  people	
  don’t	
  know	
  is	
  that	
  
       insulin	
   resistance	
   can	
   actually	
   save	
   your	
   life.	
   So	
   it's	
   been	
   observed	
   that	
  
       the	
   tissues	
   of	
   injured	
   individuals	
   who	
   lose	
   large	
   quantities	
   of	
   blood,	
  
       quickly	
  become	
  insulin	
  resistant,	
  and	
  again,	
  this	
  is	
  a	
  survival	
  strategy.	
  It's	
  
       to	
  spare	
  glucose	
  for	
  the	
  brain.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     So	
  insulin	
  resistance	
  can	
  actually	
  improve	
  your	
  chances	
  of	
  survival.	
  This	
  is	
  
       a	
   very	
   well-­‐known	
   and	
   studied	
   physiological	
   adaptation.	
   Interestingly,	
  
       there's	
  a	
  lot	
  of	
  rat	
  studies	
  used	
  showing	
  that	
  high	
  fat	
  feeding	
  promotes	
  
       syndrome	
   x,	
   but	
   there	
   are	
   plenty	
   of	
   misconceptions	
   and	
   deceitfulness	
  
       and	
   dishonesty	
   going	
   on	
   in	
   these	
   studies.	
   So	
   the	
   researchers	
   will	
   never	
  
       discuss	
  the	
  results	
  of	
  the	
  studies	
  in	
  the	
  context	
  that	
  I	
  have	
  just	
  discussed,	
  
       saying,	
  "Hey,	
  this	
  is	
  actually	
  just	
  a	
  normal	
  adaptation."	
  	
  
	
  
	
     But	
   there	
   are	
   also	
   other	
   things	
   going	
   on	
   in	
   the	
   diets	
   that	
   are	
   being	
   fed	
   to	
  
       the	
   rodents.	
   If	
   you	
   actually	
   look	
   them	
   up,	
   and	
   anybody	
   can	
   download	
  

                                                                                                                                            13	
  
	
  
       these	
  diets	
  if	
  you	
  just	
  type	
  in	
  the	
  name	
  in	
  Google,	
  the	
  PDFs	
  will	
  come	
  up.	
  
       But	
   the	
   diets	
   are	
   not	
   real	
   food	
   for	
   one.	
   If	
   you	
   look	
   at	
   what	
   they	
   feed	
  
       these	
   animals,	
   it's	
   a	
   sacrilege.	
   It's	
   just	
   horrible.	
   And	
   then	
   we	
   wonder	
   why	
  
       they	
  die	
  and	
  get	
  sick.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     But	
  anyways,	
  a	
  lot	
  of	
  the	
  diets	
  are	
  deficient	
  in	
  omega-­‐3	
  fatty	
  acids,	
  and	
  it	
  
       has	
   been	
   shown	
   that	
   you	
   can	
   put	
   a	
   rodent	
   on	
   a	
   high-­‐fat	
   diet,	
   and	
   then	
  
       add	
   the	
   omega-­‐3	
   fatty	
   acid	
   back	
   in,	
   and	
   you	
   will	
   normalize	
   insulin	
  
       resistance.	
   And	
   I've	
   got	
   two	
   papers	
   to	
   show	
   this	
   -­‐-­‐	
   “Fish	
   Oil	
   Prevents	
  
       Insulin	
   Resistance	
   Induced	
   by	
   High-­‐fat	
   Feeding	
   in	
   Rats,”	
   that	
   was	
  
       published	
  in	
  Science	
  in	
  1987	
  Volume	
  237,	
  page	
  885	
  to	
  888.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     And	
   then	
   there's	
   -­‐-­‐	
   “Influence	
   of	
   Dietary	
   Fat	
   Composition	
   on	
  
       Development	
   of	
   Insulin	
   Resistance	
   Relationship	
   to	
   Muscle	
   Triglycerides	
  
       and	
   Omega-­‐3	
   Fatty	
   Acids	
   in	
   Muscle	
   and	
   Phospholipids,”	
   that	
   was	
  
       published	
  in	
  Diabetes	
  in	
  1991	
  Volume	
  40,	
  page	
  280.	
  What's	
  interesting	
  to	
  
       note	
  when	
  you	
  look	
  at	
  those	
  papers	
  and	
  that	
  EPA	
  and	
  DHA	
  are	
  far	
  more	
  
       effective	
   than	
   alpha-­‐linolenic	
   acid.	
   So	
   a	
   long-­‐chain	
   omega-­‐3	
   fatty	
   acids	
  
       are	
  more	
  effective	
  at	
  normalizing	
  insulin	
  resistance	
  within	
  the	
  context	
  of	
  
       a	
  high-­‐fat	
  diet	
  for	
  rodents.	
  The	
  only	
  vegetarian	
  source	
  of	
  DHA,	
  you	
  should	
  
       keep	
  in	
  mind,	
  is	
  algae.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     So	
   if	
   you're	
   a	
   vegetarian	
   and	
   you	
   want	
   to	
   get	
   some	
   good	
   omega-­‐3,	
   get	
  
       yourself	
   some	
   algal	
   DHA.	
   It's	
   available	
   from	
   CVS.	
   It	
   will	
   help	
   you	
   a	
   lot.	
  
       What's	
   interesting	
   is	
   that	
   DHA	
   can	
   be	
   retro	
   converted	
   into	
   EPA	
   much	
  
       more	
   effectively	
   actually	
   than	
   EPA	
   can	
   be	
   retro	
   converted	
   in	
   DHA	
   and	
  
       that's	
  because	
  in	
  biology,	
  getting	
  from	
  point	
  A	
  to	
  point	
  B	
  is	
  not	
  always	
  the	
  
       same	
  pathway	
  as	
  getting	
  from	
  point	
  B	
  to	
  point	
  A.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     So	
  if	
  you	
  want	
  some	
  information	
  on	
  that,	
  you	
  can	
  look	
  at	
  “Physiological	
  
       Compartmental	
   Analysis	
   of	
   Alpha-­‐Linolenic	
   Acid	
   Metabolism	
   in	
   Adult	
  
       Humans,”	
   that	
   was	
   in	
   the	
   Journal	
   of	
   lipid	
   research	
   in	
   2001	
   Volume	
   42,	
  
       page	
   1257.	
   In	
   there	
   you'll	
   find	
   the	
   fact	
   that	
   EPA	
   is	
   poorly	
   converted	
   to	
  
       DHA.	
  If	
  you	
  want	
  to	
  find	
  the	
  retro	
  conversion,	
  you	
  can	
  look	
  up	
  “Dietary	
  
       Docosahexaenoic	
   Acid	
   as	
   a	
   Source	
   of	
   Eicosapentaenoic	
   Acid	
   in	
  
       Vegetarians	
   and	
   Omnivores”	
   that	
   was	
   published	
   in	
   Lipids	
   1997,	
   Volume	
  
       32,	
  page	
  342.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     So	
   diets	
   that	
   are	
   employed	
   in	
   high-­‐fat	
   feeding	
   studies	
   of	
   rodents	
   are	
   also	
  
       rich	
   in	
   a	
   synthetic	
   trans	
   fatty	
   acid	
   called	
   elaidic	
   acid.	
   If	
   they	
   are	
   using	
   a	
  
       hydrogenated	
  fat,	
  elaidic	
  acid	
  is	
  a	
  synthetic	
  trans	
  fatty	
  acid	
  that	
  is	
  created	
  
       upon	
   the	
   hydrogenation	
   of	
   vegetable	
   oils,	
   and	
   it	
   has	
   been	
   shown	
   that	
  
       human	
  subjects	
  consuming	
  20%	
  of	
  their	
  energy	
  intake	
  as	
  trans	
  fatty	
  acids	
  
       have	
  been	
  shown	
  to	
  develop	
  insulin	
  resistance.	
  And	
  if	
  you	
  want	
  a	
  paper	
  

                                                                                                                                          14	
  
	
  
       on	
  that,	
  you	
  can	
  look	
  up	
  “Intake	
  of	
  a	
  Diet	
  High	
  in	
  Trans	
  Monounsaturated	
  
       Fatty	
  Acids	
  or	
  Saturated	
  Fatty	
  Acids,	
  Effects	
  on	
  Postprandial	
  Insulinemia	
  
       and	
   Glycemia	
   in	
   Obese	
   Patients	
   with	
   NIDDM”	
   that	
   was	
   published	
   in	
  
       Diabetes	
  Care	
  1997,	
  Volume	
  20,	
  page	
  881.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     So	
   again,	
   a	
   lot	
   of	
   the	
   studies	
   that	
   you	
   will	
   find	
   on	
   this	
   are	
   flawed.	
   They're	
  
       not	
   putting	
   the	
   results	
   into	
   context.	
   And	
   I	
   think	
   that	
   it	
   would	
   be	
  
       interesting	
  to	
  discuss	
  this	
  -­‐-­‐	
  to	
  compare	
  this,	
  for	
  example,	
  with	
  the	
  insulin	
  
       resistance	
   that	
   is	
   created	
   from	
   excess	
   consumption	
   of	
   carbohydrates	
  
       specifically	
   fructose.	
   So	
   fructose	
   can	
   be	
   metabolized	
   by	
   the	
   kidneys,	
  
       adipocytes	
  that	
  are	
  fat	
  cells,	
  and	
  hepatocytes	
  that	
  are	
  liver	
  cells,	
  but	
  the	
  
       liver	
  deals	
  with	
  approximately	
  50-­‐75%	
  of	
  the	
  load.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     So	
  when	
  the	
  fructose	
  and	
  glucose	
  enter	
  cells,	
  in	
  order	
  to	
  stay	
  in	
  the	
  cells	
  
       they	
   have	
   to	
   be	
   phosphorylated	
   by	
   ATP	
   dependent	
   enzymes,	
   and	
   that	
  
       phosphorylation	
  prevents	
  the	
  glucose	
  and	
  fructose	
  from	
  leaving	
  the	
  cell.	
  
       In	
   hepatocytes	
   which	
   are	
   liver	
   cells,	
   the	
   glucokinase	
   takes	
   care	
   of	
   that	
  
       job;	
   whereas,	
   fructokinase	
   takes	
   care	
   of	
   the	
   job	
   for	
   fructose.	
   But	
  
       downstream	
   metabolites	
   regulate	
   the	
   activity	
   of	
   glucokinase,	
   but	
   they	
  
       prevent	
   excessive	
   phosphorylation	
   of	
   glucose.	
   That	
   doesn’t	
   happen	
   for	
  
       fructokinase.	
   It's	
   poorly	
   regulated	
   and	
   your	
   liver	
   can	
   just	
   phosphorylate	
   a	
  
       ton	
  of	
  fructose.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     What's	
   interesting	
   is	
   that	
   fructose	
   increases	
   the	
   activity	
   of	
   glucokinase	
  
       which	
   means	
   that	
   your	
   liver	
   gets	
   turned	
   into	
   a	
   sugar	
   sponge	
   when	
   you	
  
       have	
  a	
  lot	
  of	
  fructose	
  around.	
  In	
  a	
  large	
  fructose	
  and	
  glucose	
  is	
  going	
  to	
  
       rapidly	
   fill	
   liver	
   glycogen	
   stores.	
   That	
   means	
   that	
   all	
   the	
   remaining	
  
       carbohydrates	
  is	
  going	
  to	
  be	
  fed	
  to	
  the	
  Krebs	
  cycle.	
  Citric	
  acid	
  or	
  citrase	
  is	
  
       going	
   to	
   overflow	
   out	
   of	
   the	
   Krebs	
   cycle.	
   That's	
   going	
   to	
   be	
   fed	
   into	
   a	
  
       pathway	
   called	
   de	
   novo	
   lipogenesis	
   which	
   literally	
   means	
   new	
   fat	
  
       creation,	
  and	
  de	
  novo	
  lipogenesis	
  is	
  going	
  to	
  turn	
  that	
  carbohydrate	
  into	
  
       a	
  saturated	
  fatty	
  acid	
  called	
  palmitic	
  acid.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     So	
   what's	
   interesting	
   is	
   that	
   aside	
   from	
   glucose	
   scarcity,	
   another	
   signal	
  
       that	
   turns	
   on	
   insulin	
   resistance	
   is	
   the	
   presence	
   of	
   a	
   lot	
   of	
   fatty	
   acids.	
   If	
  
       you're	
  eating	
  a	
  lot	
  of	
  fat	
  and	
  not	
  eating	
  a	
  lot	
  of	
  carbohydrate,	
  those	
  are	
  
       two	
  good	
  signals	
  that	
  insulin	
  resistance	
  in	
  the	
  muscles	
  should	
  be	
  turned	
  
       on.	
  But	
  now	
  here	
  you	
  are	
  creating	
  a	
  lot	
  of	
  a	
  fatty	
  acid	
  called	
  palmitic	
  acid	
  
       which	
  actually	
  makes	
  its	
  way	
  to	
  the	
  brain	
  and	
  gives	
  the	
  signal	
  to	
  turn	
  on	
  
       insulin	
   resistance,	
   and	
   this	
   has	
   been	
   known	
   -­‐-­‐	
   and	
   I	
   can	
   provide	
   some	
  
       references	
   for	
   that,	
   but	
   you're	
   doing	
   this	
   in	
   the	
   context	
   of	
   -­‐-­‐	
   or	
   this	
   is	
  
       happening	
  in	
  the	
  context	
  of	
  a	
  high	
  carbohydrate	
  diet.	
  	
  
	
  


                                                                                                                                              15	
  
	
  
	
     Now,	
   you're	
   in	
   trouble	
   because	
   insulin	
   resistance	
   gets	
   turned	
   on	
   when	
  
       there's	
   still	
   a	
   lot	
   of	
   glucose	
   flowing	
   in	
   the	
   bloodstream.	
   So	
   that's	
   going	
   to	
  
       cause	
   hyperglycemia	
   which	
   is	
   observed	
   in	
   type	
   2	
   diabetes.	
   That's	
   then	
  
       going	
   to	
   result	
   into	
   hyperinsulinemia	
   because	
   that	
   glucose	
   has	
   to	
   go	
  
       somewhere,	
   so	
   insulin	
   is	
   going	
   to	
   be	
   released	
   to	
   try	
   to	
   shove	
   into	
   cells.	
   If	
  
       the	
   glucose	
   stays	
   around	
   for	
   too	
   long,	
   you're	
   going	
   to	
   form	
   advanced	
  
       glycation	
   end-­‐products,	
   and	
   then	
   you're	
   going	
   to	
   get	
   some	
   more	
  
       detrimental	
   health	
   outcomes	
   from	
   the	
   fact	
   that	
   insulin	
   is	
   high	
   all	
   the	
  
       time.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     So	
   I	
   hope	
   that	
   that	
   explanation	
   gives	
   you	
   a	
   pretty	
   good	
   idea	
   of	
   why	
  
       insulin	
   resistance	
   within	
   the	
   context	
   of	
   a	
   high-­‐fat	
   diet,	
   and	
   insulin	
  
       resistance	
  in	
  the	
  context	
  of	
  high	
  carbohydrate	
  diet	
  are	
  different.	
  And	
  one	
  
       is	
   not	
   pathogenic;	
   whereas,	
   the	
   other	
   one	
   is	
   pathogenic.	
   I	
   think	
   I'm	
   going	
  
       to	
   cut	
   it	
   here.	
   I	
   do	
   want	
   to	
   address	
   one	
   thing	
   because	
   I	
   get	
   a	
   lot	
   of	
  
       questions	
  for	
  this	
  and	
  this	
  individual	
  in	
  this	
  book	
  in	
  particular	
  has	
  really,	
  
       really	
  irked	
  me.	
  I'm	
  going	
  to	
  criticize	
  Tim	
  Ferriss	
  who	
  has	
  been	
  on	
  Robb's	
  
       blog	
  before.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     So	
  Tim	
  described	
  experiments	
  in	
  his	
  book	
  where	
  he	
  is	
  cheating	
  on	
  his	
  diet	
  
       with	
  carbohydrate	
  rich	
  foods,	
  but	
  he's	
  not	
  seeing	
  his	
  blood	
  sugar	
  rise	
  to	
  
       pathological	
  levels.	
  And	
  he's	
  measuring	
  his	
  blood	
  sugar	
  with	
  a	
  nifty	
  little	
  
       machine.	
  And	
  he's	
  saying	
  that	
  protocol	
  works,	
  and	
  that	
  his	
  supplements,	
  
       and	
   his	
   stupid	
   little	
   air	
   squats	
   turning	
   on	
   non-­‐insulin	
   glucose	
   uptake	
  
       actually	
  are	
  helping.	
  But	
  there	
  are	
  really	
  two	
  things	
  going	
  on	
  here	
  I	
  think.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     Tim's	
  insulin	
  sensitivity	
  and	
  insulin	
  secretion	
  are	
  still	
  good.	
  So	
  his	
  body	
  is	
  
       doing	
   a	
   good	
   job	
   of	
   shutting	
   the	
   glucose	
   into	
   cells.	
   That's	
   what	
   he's	
  
       observing.	
   That's	
   why	
   his	
   blood	
   sugars	
   are	
   not	
   going	
   to	
   pathological	
  
       levels,	
  above	
  160	
  milligrams	
  per	
  deciliter.	
  And	
  the	
  fructose	
  that's	
  in	
  the	
  
       meal	
   that	
   he's	
   eating	
   is	
   causing	
   the	
   liver	
   to	
   absorb	
   glucose	
   from	
   the	
  
       bloodstream.	
   So	
   that	
   leads	
   to	
   lower	
   blood	
   sugar	
   levels,	
   okay.	
   But	
   that	
  
       means	
  that	
  his	
  liver	
  is	
  taking	
  a	
  huge	
  hit.	
  And	
  this	
  is	
  bad	
  because	
  the	
  liver	
  
       is	
  actually	
  one	
  of	
  the	
  few	
  organs	
  that	
  can	
  release	
  blood	
  sugar	
  back	
  into	
  
       the	
   bloodstream,	
   which	
   means	
   that	
   it's	
   involved	
   in	
   blood	
   sugar	
   control,	
  
       and	
  that's	
  not	
  the	
  -­‐-­‐	
  liver	
  dysfunction	
  is	
  not	
  desirable.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     There's	
  a	
  variety	
  -­‐-­‐	
  what	
  Tim	
  is	
  not	
  measuring	
  is	
  insulin	
  levels.	
  And	
  I	
  bet	
  
       that	
  if	
  you	
  were	
  to	
  look	
  at	
  his	
  insulin	
  levels,	
  they	
  would	
  surpass	
  the	
  level	
  
       or	
   the	
   threshold	
   that	
   then	
   causes	
   a	
   variety	
   of	
   metabolic	
   shifts	
   and	
  
       problems	
  including	
  the	
  dysregulation	
  of	
  appetite.	
  So	
  I	
  just	
  -­‐-­‐	
  I	
  could	
  not	
  
       disagree	
  with	
  him	
  more	
  on	
  this	
  whole	
  little	
  protocol.	
  And	
  I	
  could	
  tell	
  you	
  
       right	
  now	
  that	
  if	
  a	
  type	
  2	
  diabetic	
  were	
  to	
  implement	
  that,	
  it	
  would	
  ruin	
  
       them	
  because	
  by	
  definition	
  type	
  2	
  diabetes	
  you	
  get	
  that,	
  you	
  reach	
  that	
  

                                                                                                                                          16	
  
	
  
                       point	
   once	
   you	
   no	
   longer	
   produce	
   enough	
   insulin	
   for	
   your	
   level	
   of	
   insulin	
  
                       resistance.	
  So	
  you	
  can	
  imagine	
  what	
  would	
  be	
  going	
  on	
  here	
  with	
  a	
  type	
  
                       2	
  diabetic.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        And	
  this	
  is	
  part	
  of	
  why	
  we're	
  real	
  reticent,	
  in	
  general,	
  to	
  recommend	
  the	
  
                       real	
  crazy	
  bender	
  cheat	
  days.	
  	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Yeah.	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        We	
   had	
   a	
   talk	
   -­‐-­‐	
   question	
   about	
   that	
   in	
   the	
   last	
   podcast,	
   and	
   I’ve	
   just	
  
                       never	
   seen	
   good	
   outcomes	
   on	
   that.	
   And	
   then	
   Matt	
   and	
   I	
   have	
   talked	
  
                       about	
   this	
   too.	
   We've	
   not	
   seen	
   the	
   type	
   of	
   benefits	
   out	
   of	
   a	
   cyclic	
   low-­‐
                       carb	
  diets	
  that	
  you	
  would	
  kind	
  of	
  like	
  to	
  see,	
  and	
  this	
  is	
  where	
  more	
  of	
  
                       trying	
  to	
  get	
  some	
  carbs	
  in,	
  maybe	
  post	
  workout	
  on	
  a	
  daily	
  basis,	
  because	
  
                       getting	
  that	
  consistent	
  adaptation	
  of	
  using	
  the	
  amount	
  of	
  carbs	
  that	
  you	
  
                       need	
   to	
   for	
   the	
   day-­‐to-­‐day	
   specific	
   activities	
   but	
   also	
   up	
   regulating	
   the	
  
                       insulin	
   sensitivity	
   that	
   is	
   of	
   benefit	
   and	
   not	
   sliding	
   you	
   into	
   that	
   insulin	
  
                       resistance	
  that’s	
  merely	
  an	
  outgrowth	
  of	
  a	
  high-­‐fat	
  diet,	
  but	
  then	
  if	
  you	
  
                       need	
   that	
   for	
   carbohydrate	
   for	
   activity	
   or	
   muscle	
   glycogen	
   stores,	
   then	
  
                       it's	
   going	
   to	
   be	
   difficult	
   to	
   just	
   get	
   that	
   into	
   the	
   muscle	
   because	
   of	
   the	
  
                       insulin	
  resistance.	
  	
  
	
  
	
                     Matt,	
   it's	
   also	
   probably	
   worth	
   pointing	
   out	
   to	
   folks	
   when	
   people	
   hear,	
  
                       say,	
  a	
  commentary	
  about	
  high-­‐fat,	
  low-­‐carb	
  diets	
  are	
  dangerous;	
  there's	
  
                       a	
   nice	
   response	
   to	
   that	
   which	
   is	
   you	
   can	
   ask	
   the	
   individual,	
   is	
   therapeutic	
  
                       fasting	
  beneficial?	
  	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Yeah.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        And	
  if	
  the	
  person	
  says	
  “Yes,”	
  then	
  it's	
  obvious	
  they	
  don’t	
  know	
  what	
  the	
  
                       hell	
   they're	
   talking	
   about	
   because	
   the	
   two	
   states	
   are	
   metabolically	
  
                       identical.	
  	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Yeah,	
  they	
  are	
  very	
  similar.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Yeah.	
  Yeah.	
  And	
  I	
  think	
  Andy	
  Deas	
  has	
  left.	
  	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     I've	
   got	
   like	
   -­‐-­‐	
   this	
   reminds	
   me	
   of	
   one	
   thing.	
   The	
   whole	
   concept	
   of	
   the	
  
                       glycemic	
  load;	
  I	
  don’t	
  disagree	
  with	
  it	
  entirely,	
  but	
  the	
  problem	
  is	
  that	
  if	
  a	
  
                       food	
  contains	
  fructose,	
  a	
  lot	
  of	
  sugar	
  is	
  going	
  to	
  get	
  shoved	
  into	
  the	
  liver.	
  
                       So	
  it's	
  going	
  to	
  have	
  glycemic	
  load	
  that	
  appears	
  -­‐-­‐	
  that's	
  lower	
  and	
  makes	
  
                       the	
  food	
  appear	
  a	
  little	
  better.	
  So	
  the	
  glycemic	
  load	
  is	
  not	
  the	
  end-­‐all,	
  be-­‐
                       all.	
  You	
  really	
  need	
  to	
  consider	
  the	
  amount	
  of	
  fructose	
  that's	
  in	
  the	
  food	
  
                       too.	
  	
  

                                                                                                                                                        17	
  
	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        I	
  did	
  not	
  leave	
  the	
  building.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        I	
  thought	
  that	
  Andy	
  had	
  committed	
  some	
  sort	
  of	
  tea	
  induced	
  suicide.	
  	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        I	
  overdose	
  with	
  decaf	
  tea,	
  and	
  it	
  took	
  me	
  out.	
  It's	
  the	
  end	
  of	
  my	
  day.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Awesome.	
  	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        Are	
  we	
  ready	
  to	
  move	
  on	
  to	
  the	
  next	
  part	
  of	
  Ben's	
  questions?	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Cod	
  liver.	
  	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        Cod	
  liver.	
  Yes.	
   "Weston	
  A.	
  Price	
  says	
  yes,	
  Cordain	
  says	
  no,	
  who	
  do	
  the	
  lay	
  
                       people	
   believe?	
   Both	
   have	
   very	
   good	
   researcher	
   on	
   both	
   sides.	
   Could	
   it	
  
                       be	
  the	
  problem	
  lies	
  with	
  Cod	
  Liver	
  Oils	
  that	
  have	
  been	
  stripped	
  of	
  natural	
  
                       A	
  &	
  D	
  and	
  replaces	
  with	
  the	
  synthetic	
  variety?"	
  Go.	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     So	
   it	
   is	
   true	
   that	
   over	
   time	
   the	
   amount	
   of	
   vitamin	
   D	
   in	
   cod	
   liver	
   oil	
   is	
  
                       changed.	
  That's	
  an	
  effect.	
  But	
  I	
  will	
  say	
  that	
  -­‐-­‐	
  Robb	
  and	
  I	
  have	
  looked	
  at	
  
                       this	
   research	
   extensively.	
   I	
   am	
   personally	
   not	
   satisfied	
   with	
   the	
   quality	
   of	
  
                       the	
  research	
  that	
  is	
  out	
  there,	
  and	
  I	
  feel	
  that	
  it	
  is	
  insufficient	
  to	
  come	
  up	
  
                       with	
  a	
  conclusion	
  on	
  this.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        I	
  did	
  a	
  piece	
  on	
  this	
  which	
  was	
  basically	
  kind	
  of	
  a	
  shrug	
  at	
  the	
  end	
  of	
  the	
  
                       day	
  which	
  -­‐-­‐	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Yeah,	
  and	
  I	
  agreed	
  with	
  what	
  you	
  wrote.	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Yeah.	
  And	
  my	
  only	
  point	
  with	
  that	
  was	
  that	
  if	
  folks	
  need	
  high	
  dose	
  EPA	
  
                       DHA,	
  say	
  like	
  they're	
  metabolically	
  deranged,	
  and	
  we're	
  trying	
  to	
  turn	
  the	
  
                       boat	
  around,	
  they	
  might	
  be	
  better	
  off	
  with	
  just	
  standard	
  fish	
  oil	
  initially.	
  
                       And	
   then	
   when	
   they’re	
   at	
   their	
   maintenance	
   dose	
   the	
   cod	
   liver	
   oil	
   is	
  
                       probably	
  a	
  just-­‐fine	
  option.	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     What	
  I	
  like	
  about	
  the	
  cod	
  liver	
  oil	
  is	
  that	
  it	
  contains	
  more	
  DHA	
  than	
  EPA	
  
                       typically.	
   And	
   DHA	
   is	
   the	
   precious	
   stuff	
   as	
   I	
   mentioned.	
   But	
   one	
   has	
   to	
  
                       wonder	
  how	
  sustainable	
  the	
  whole	
  fish	
  oil	
  and	
  cod	
  liver	
  oil	
  industry	
  really	
  
                       is.	
   Why	
   not	
   just	
   eat	
   fish	
   daily?	
   And	
   if	
   your	
   diet	
   is	
   optimal,	
   then	
   you	
  
                       shouldn’t	
  need	
  that	
  much	
  supplementation	
  anyways,	
  if	
  any.	
  So	
  in	
  the	
  end	
  
                       actually,	
  the	
  only	
  sustainable	
  omega-­‐3	
  supplement	
  is	
  algal	
  DHA.	
  Growing	
  
                       algae	
   and	
   squeezing	
   the	
   DHA	
   out	
   of	
   them,	
   fixes	
   CO2	
   from	
   the	
  
                       atmosphere,	
  is	
  entirely	
  sustainable,	
  and	
  then	
  you	
  can	
  take	
  that	
  DHA	
  and	
  


                                                                                                                                                             18	
  
	
  
                       retro	
   convert	
   it	
   to	
   EPA.	
   So	
   if	
   I	
   had	
   to	
   pick	
   what	
   is	
   the	
   best	
   source	
   of	
  
                       omega-­‐3	
  fatty	
  acids,	
  it’s	
  just	
  algal	
  DHA	
  is	
  it.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Hey,	
  Matt,	
  are	
  you	
  still	
  on	
  there?	
  	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Yup.	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        The	
   folks	
   often	
   times	
   mention	
   fermented	
   cod	
   liver	
   oil.	
   What's	
   the	
   story	
  
                       with	
  that?	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     I	
   have	
   not	
   looked	
   into	
   that	
   so	
   I	
   don’t	
   know.	
   I	
   mean	
   just	
   -­‐-­‐	
   it	
   would	
   be	
  
                       interesting	
   to	
   see	
   what	
   the	
   -­‐-­‐	
   how	
   the	
   fermentation	
   process	
   affects	
   the	
  
                       composition	
  of	
  the	
  oil.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Yeah,	
  and	
  mechanistically	
  it	
  doesn’t	
  make	
  much	
  sense	
  to	
  me,	
  but	
  Weston	
  
                       Price	
  -­‐-­‐	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Fermentation	
   requires	
   sugar	
   so	
   -­‐-­‐	
   and	
   I	
   know	
   that	
   the	
   fermentation	
  
                       process	
   will	
   improve	
   the	
   digestibility	
   of	
   proteins;	
   it	
   will	
   improve	
  
                       digestibility	
   of	
   carbohydrates;	
   but	
   I	
   have	
   not	
   seen	
   a	
   whole	
   lot	
   of	
  
                       information	
  on	
  fats.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Right.	
  	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     So	
  I'm	
  not	
  sure	
  that's	
  going	
  on	
  there.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Cool.	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        All	
   right.	
   I'm	
   very	
   excited	
   about	
   the	
   next	
   question.	
   "3)	
   Post	
   workout	
  
                       carbohydrate	
   -­‐	
   I	
   know	
   you	
   wrote	
   a	
   stellar	
   piece	
   sometime	
   ago	
   on	
   low-­‐
                       carb	
  and	
  CrossFit.	
  How	
  has	
  your	
  viewpoint	
  evolved	
  from	
  that	
  experiment,	
  
                       and	
  over	
  time?"	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     So	
   I	
   try	
   to	
   behave	
   as	
   best	
   as	
   possible,	
   as	
   a	
   responsible	
   scientist,	
   and	
   I	
   will	
  
                       tell	
   you	
   right	
   now	
   that	
   if	
   this	
   article	
   on	
   Robb's	
   blog	
   had	
   been	
   a	
   published	
  
                       piece	
  in	
  the	
  scientific	
  literature,	
  I	
  would	
  retract	
  it	
  because	
  I	
  do	
  not	
  want	
  
                       anyone	
   to	
   repeat	
   that	
   experiment.	
   That	
   was	
   really	
   foolish,	
   naïve,	
   and	
  
                       stupid	
  of	
  me.	
  Don’t	
  do	
  it.	
  And	
  I'll	
  explain	
  to	
  you	
  what	
  happened.	
  	
  
	
  
	
                     I	
  was	
  about	
  three	
  to	
  four	
  months	
  into	
  the	
  experiment.	
  I	
  was	
  eating	
  just	
  
                       meat	
   and	
   maybe	
   some	
   vegetables,	
   some	
   greens	
   and	
   fat.	
   I	
   was	
   getting	
   no	
  
                       -­‐-­‐	
   very	
   little	
   carbohydrate	
   in	
   that	
   whole	
   deal,	
   and	
   I	
   was	
   following	
   main	
  
                       site	
  programming.	
  And	
  I	
  was	
  actually	
  seeing	
  my	
  results	
  improve,	
  and	
  I'll	
  


                                                                                                                                                                19	
  
	
  
       talk	
   a	
   little	
   bit	
   later	
   about	
   why	
   I	
   think	
   that	
   is	
   in	
   another	
   related	
   question.	
  
       But	
  after	
  I	
  wrote	
  that	
  up,	
  I	
  completely	
  crashed.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     There	
   is	
   this	
   one	
   workout	
   that	
   addressed	
   -­‐-­‐	
   actually,	
   I	
   switched	
   to	
   the	
  
       OPT	
   website	
   at	
   that	
   point,	
   and	
   that	
   bastard	
   wrote	
   a	
   workout	
   that	
   just	
  
       destroyed	
   me.	
   I	
   have	
   short	
   arms,	
   and	
   I'm	
   not	
   that	
   tall,	
   so	
   rowing	
   is	
   not	
  
       my	
  strength.	
  And	
  he	
  put	
  a	
  workout	
  together	
  that	
  was	
  rowing	
  and	
  sumo	
  
       dead	
   lift	
   high	
   poles,	
   and	
   I'm	
   just	
   rolling	
   on	
   the	
   floor	
   at	
   the	
   end	
   of	
   this	
  
       workout,	
  and	
  my	
  eyes	
  are	
  sinking	
  into	
  my	
  skull,	
  and	
  I'm	
  just	
  going	
  in	
  and	
  
       out	
   of	
   consciousness.	
   I	
   just	
   -­‐-­‐	
   I	
   could	
   barely	
   focus	
   on	
   anything.	
   I	
   just	
  
       started	
   -­‐-­‐	
   I	
   could	
   at	
   least	
   still	
   think,	
   and	
   I'm	
   like,	
   "Wow!	
   My	
   brain	
   is	
  
       running	
  out	
  of	
  glucose,	
  like	
  dangerously."	
  I	
  just	
  did	
  something	
  really	
  bad.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     So	
   I	
   managed	
   to	
   compose	
   myself	
   and	
   pick	
   myself	
   off	
   the	
   ground,	
   and	
   I	
  
       work	
   out	
   in	
   Hemenway	
   on	
   the	
   Harvard	
   campus,	
   and	
   it's	
   pretty	
   close	
   to	
  
       Harvard	
   Square,	
   and	
   in	
   the	
   Harvard	
   Square	
   there's	
   the	
   garage.	
   In	
   the	
  
       garage,	
   there's	
   a	
   Ben	
   &	
   Jerry's,	
   and	
   I	
   just	
   sat	
   at	
   the	
   counter	
   at	
   Ben	
   &	
  
       Jerry's.	
  And	
  I	
  looked	
  at	
  the	
  menu	
  to	
  make	
  -­‐-­‐	
  and	
  I	
  picked	
  three	
  kinds	
  of	
  
       ice	
   cream	
   that	
   had	
   no	
   gluten	
   in	
   them	
   because	
   they	
   have	
   things	
   like	
  
       cookie	
  dough	
  and	
  whatnot.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     And	
  I	
  just	
  looked	
  at	
  the	
  girl	
  and	
  I	
  said,	
  "Give	
  me	
  three	
  pints	
  of	
  ice	
  cream."	
  
       And	
  she	
  obliged,	
  and	
  I	
  ate	
  all	
  of	
  it,	
  and	
  I	
  was	
  still	
  in	
  my	
  shorts	
  and	
  t-­‐shirt.	
  I	
  
       ate	
   all	
   of	
   it	
   right	
   there	
   at	
   the	
   counter	
   in	
   front	
   of	
   her	
   within	
   a	
   matter	
   of	
  
       minutes.	
  And	
  I	
  could	
  feel	
  my	
  body	
  soaking	
  it	
  up,	
  soaking	
  up	
  the	
  sugar	
  as	
  I	
  
       was	
   doing	
   that	
   and	
   felt	
   much	
   better	
   afterwards	
   even	
   though	
   I	
   don’t	
  
       tolerate	
  fructose	
  really	
  well.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     So	
   don’t	
   do	
   that.	
   If	
   you	
   are	
   going	
   to	
   burn	
   carbohydrate,	
   eat	
   some	
  
       carbohydrate.	
   I	
   would	
   just	
   prefer	
   that	
   that	
   carbohydrate	
   comes	
   from	
  
       starchy	
  sources	
  and	
  lower	
  in	
  fructose	
  or	
  roots,	
  tubers	
  and	
  bulbs.	
  I	
  mean	
  
       there	
  are	
  some	
  fruits	
  that	
  are	
  low	
  in	
  fructose.	
  You	
  can	
  go	
  ahead	
  and	
  eat	
  
       some	
   of	
   that.	
   I	
   just	
   like	
   to	
   starchier	
   your	
   stuff	
   like	
   yucca	
   root,	
   for	
  
       example.	
   You	
   can	
   eat	
   peeled	
   potatoes	
   if	
   you	
   want.	
   But	
   the	
   problem	
   here	
  
       is	
   that	
   if	
   you	
   -­‐-­‐	
   gluconeogenesis	
   gets	
   turned	
   on	
   by	
   cortisol	
   and	
   other	
  
       hormones,	
  and	
  it's	
  not	
  that	
  fast.	
  It's	
  not	
  a	
  very	
  fast	
  process.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     So	
  in	
  order	
  for	
  gluconeogenesis	
  to	
  ramp	
  up,	
  cortisol	
  has	
  to	
  ramp	
  up.	
  But	
  
       cortisol	
  is	
  that	
  stress	
  hormone,	
  and	
  your	
  body	
  doesn’t	
  know	
  if	
  cortisol	
  is	
  
       high	
   because	
   of	
   stress	
   or	
   because	
   of	
   lack	
   of	
   sugar	
   or	
   whatnot.	
   And	
   so	
   my	
  
       cortisol	
   levels	
   went	
   so	
   high	
   that	
   my	
   free	
   testosterone	
   then	
   plummeted,	
  
       and	
   there	
   is	
   this	
   thing	
   called	
   the	
   free	
   testosterone	
   to	
   cortisol	
   ratio.	
   It's	
  
       actually	
   a	
   biomarker	
   of	
   overtraining.	
   If	
   you	
   want	
   a	
   reference	
   on	
   that,	
   you	
  
       can	
   look	
   up	
   a	
   paper,	
   “Influence	
   of	
   Dietary	
   Carbohydrate	
   Intake	
   on	
   the	
  

                                                                                                                                                20	
  
	
  
                       Free	
   Testosterone:Cortisol	
   Ratio	
   Responses	
   to	
   Short-­‐Term	
   Intensive	
  
                       Exercise	
   Training,”	
   that	
   was	
   published	
   in	
   the	
   European	
   Journal	
   of	
   Applied	
  
                       Physiology	
  and	
  the	
  DOI	
  is	
  -­‐-­‐	
  I'm	
  not	
  going	
  to	
  read	
  that.	
  I'll	
  just	
  skip	
  that.	
  	
  
	
  
	
                     Anyways	
  -­‐-­‐and	
  then	
  I	
  got	
  blood	
  work	
  done,	
  and	
  it	
  confirmed	
  in	
  fact	
  that	
  
                       my	
  testosterone	
  was	
  pretty	
  low	
  and	
  my	
  cortisol	
  was	
  really	
  high.	
  So	
  this	
  is	
  
                       -­‐-­‐	
  it's	
  not	
  a	
  good	
  idea.	
  If	
  you	
  are	
  going	
  to	
  do	
  high-­‐intensity	
  exercise,	
  you	
  
                       should	
   eat	
   the	
   carbohydrate	
   that	
   goes	
   along	
   with	
   it.	
   So	
   don’t	
   repeat	
   that	
  
                       experiment.	
  	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        Matt,	
  do	
  you	
  want	
  to	
  share	
  a	
  little	
  bit	
  about	
  what	
  you're	
  eating	
  looks	
  like	
  
                       right	
  now?	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Yeah.	
  I	
  think	
  there's	
  a	
  question	
  about	
  that	
  in	
  here.	
  	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        Well,	
  then	
  we'll	
  save	
  it.	
  Teaser.	
  	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Okay.	
  	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        Number	
  4,	
  I'm	
  just	
  going	
  to	
  read	
  the	
  first	
  part	
  because	
  we're	
  not	
  going	
  to	
  
                       read	
  all	
  these	
  comments.	
  It	
  will	
  take	
  my	
  whole	
  life.	
  Debbie	
  says,	
  "Matt,	
  
I	
  
                       have	
   really	
   been	
   working	
   at	
   being	
   a	
   Paleo	
   health	
   person.	
   My	
   only	
  
                       problem	
  is	
  I	
  have	
  Hashimoto	
  disease.	
  I	
  work	
  out	
  five	
  days	
  a	
  week.	
  I	
  watch	
  
                       what	
  I	
  eat.	
  Perhaps	
  more	
  of	
  a	
  85%	
  Paleo.	
  What	
  can	
  I	
  do	
  to	
  speed	
  things	
  
                       along.	
   I	
   have	
   been	
   doing	
   Paleo	
   since	
   May	
   2010	
   I	
   have	
   lost	
   about	
   15	
  
                       pounds,	
  very,	
  very	
  slowly.	
  Lots	
  of	
  tweaking	
  with	
  my	
  thyroid	
  meds,	
  and	
  I	
  
                       continually	
  tweak	
  my	
  food.	
  Can	
  you	
  give	
  me	
  any	
  suggestions?	
  Thanks	
  in	
  
                       advance,"	
  Debbie.	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Yeah.	
  So	
  if	
  you	
  look	
  at	
  the	
  comments,	
  there	
  are	
  some	
  people	
  that	
  made	
  
                       some	
  good	
  recommendations	
  here.	
  And	
  I	
  know	
  that	
  Robb	
  has	
  a	
  section	
  
                       on	
  his	
  site	
  about	
  the	
  autoimmune	
  protocol.	
  I	
  unfortunately	
  didn’t	
  get	
  the	
  
                       chance	
  to	
  read	
  that.	
  I'm	
  sure	
  there's	
  going	
  to	
  be	
  some	
  overlap	
  with	
  the	
  
                       recommendations	
   I	
   give	
   here.	
   But	
   gluten-­‐free	
   or	
   100%	
   Paleo	
   is	
   not	
  
                       enough,	
  and	
  she's	
  not	
  even	
  100%	
  Paleo.	
  She's	
  like	
  85%	
  Paleo.	
  	
  
	
  
	
                     If	
  you	
  have	
  an	
  autoimmune	
  disease,	
  you	
  need	
  a	
  pretty	
  rough	
  buy-­‐in	
  here.	
  
                       So	
  here	
  are	
  the	
  recommendations	
  I'm	
  going	
  to	
  make.	
  I	
  think	
  you	
  should	
  
                       follow	
   a	
   low-­‐ish	
   carbohydrate	
   diet.	
   Keep	
   in	
   mind	
   that	
   might	
   increase	
   TSH	
  
                       levels,	
   but	
   that	
   doesn’t	
   mean	
   it's	
   pathological.	
   I	
   want	
   the	
   carbohydrate	
  
                       that	
  you	
  consume	
  to	
  be	
  mostly	
  glucose	
  and	
  a	
  little	
  bit	
  less	
  fructose.	
  So	
  go	
  
                       for	
   vegetables,	
   roots,	
   tubers,	
   and	
   bulbs,	
   but	
   limit	
   fruits.	
   Peel	
   your	
  
                       vegetables	
   whenever	
   possible	
   just	
   because	
   a	
   lot	
   of	
   the	
   protective	
  
                       chemicals	
  are	
  found	
  in	
  the	
  peel.	
  	
  
                                                                                                                                                       21	
  
	
  
	
  
	
                  And	
  then	
  the	
  following	
  foods	
  or	
  substances	
  have	
  to	
  be	
  eliminated	
  from	
  
                    your	
   diet	
   for	
   life:	
   cereal	
   grains,	
   including	
   -­‐-­‐	
   and	
   I'm	
   going	
   to	
   be	
  
                    comprehensive	
   here	
   -­‐-­‐	
   wheat	
   whether	
   it's	
   spelt,	
   einkorn,	
   emmer,	
   or	
  
                    durum,	
   barley,	
   rye,	
   oats,	
   triticale,	
   corn,	
   maize,	
   rice	
   including	
   wild	
   rice,	
  
                    sorghum,	
   millet,	
   fonio,	
   and	
   teff,	
   they	
   have	
   to	
   be	
   gone.	
   All	
   grain-­‐like	
  
                    substances	
  or	
  pseudocereals	
  whether	
  it's	
  amaranth,	
  red	
  nut,	
  buckwheat,	
  
                    cattail,	
   chia,	
   cockscomb,	
   kañiwa,	
   pitseed	
   goosefoot,	
   quinoa,	
   and	
  
                    wattleseed,	
  which	
  is	
  also	
  known	
  as	
  acacia	
  seed,	
  has	
  to	
  be	
  gone.	
  	
  
	
  
	
                  Eggs	
   of	
   any	
   kind,	
   dairy	
   of	
   any	
   kind,	
   nuts	
   and	
   seeds	
   of	
   any	
   kind,	
  
                    nightshades	
   which	
   includes	
   tomatoes,	
   potatoes,	
   eggplants	
   and	
   peppers	
  
                    especially	
   hot	
   peppers	
   that	
   contain	
   capsaicin	
   are	
   gone;	
   alcohol	
   gone,	
  
                    NSAIDs	
   of	
   any	
   kinds	
   including	
   aspirin,	
   none.	
   Antacids	
   that	
   contain	
  
                    aluminum	
  hydroxide	
  none,	
  those	
  that	
  contain	
  calcium	
  carbonate	
  are	
  fine.	
  
                    Oral	
  contraceptives	
  you	
  might	
  want	
  to	
  consider	
  eliminating.	
  And	
  then	
  if	
  
                    you	
   have	
   Hashimoto's,	
   you	
   should	
   avoid	
   supplementing	
   with	
   iodine	
  
                    because	
   it's	
   going	
   to	
   up	
   regulate	
   the	
   heart	
   function	
   and	
   make	
   things	
  
                    worse.	
  	
  
	
  
	
                  There	
   are	
   some	
   people	
   that	
   I've	
   worked	
   with	
   that	
   have	
   like	
   all	
   kinds	
   of	
  
                    funky	
   autoimmune	
   things	
   going	
   on,	
   and	
   I	
   had	
   this	
   one	
   person	
   that	
   just	
  
                    reacted	
   to	
   any	
   kind	
   of	
   plant	
   matter.	
   I	
   thought	
   it	
   was	
   insane,	
   but	
   I	
  
                    eventually	
  recommended	
  an	
  all	
  meat	
  and	
  fat	
  diet	
  for	
  her,	
  and	
  I	
  just	
  made	
  
                    sure	
   that	
   she	
   got	
   some	
   -­‐-­‐	
   she	
   didn’t	
   have	
   Hashimoto's,	
   so	
   I	
   made	
   sure	
  
                    that	
  she	
  got	
  some	
  iodine	
  in	
  there,	
  and	
  that	
  she	
  was	
  getting	
  quality	
  meat	
  
                    from	
  grass-­‐fed	
  animals.	
  	
  
	
  
	
                  So	
  she	
  got	
  plenty	
  of	
  CLA,	
  carotenoids,	
  conjugated	
  linoleic	
  acid	
  like	
  xenic	
  
                    acid	
  and	
  omega-­‐3's	
  and	
  all	
  that	
  stuff.	
  And	
  she	
  actually	
  did	
  fine	
  like	
  for	
  the	
  
                    first	
  time	
  her	
  liver	
  enzymes	
  came	
  back	
  positive,	
  and	
  she's	
  improving.	
  But	
  
                    then	
   if	
  she	
   breaks	
   down	
   and	
   has	
   a	
   sweet	
   potato	
   or	
   a	
   pear	
   like	
   she	
   wakes	
  
                    up	
   the	
   next	
   morning	
   and	
   she's	
   completely	
   swollen.	
   I	
   know	
   it's	
   a	
   rough	
  
                    buy-­‐in	
  but	
  this	
  is	
  it.	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
     That's	
   a	
   little	
   bit	
   more	
   comprehensive	
   than	
   what	
   I've	
   typically	
  
                    recommended	
  trying	
  to	
  think	
  just	
  a	
  longer	
  list	
  of	
  the	
  grain	
  and	
  grain-­‐like	
  
                    substances,	
   but	
   I	
   usually	
   just	
   throw	
   a	
   big	
   net	
   over	
   that	
   and	
   the	
   other	
  
                    things	
  that	
  I	
  usually	
  recommend	
  as	
  some	
  sort	
  of	
  dairy-­‐free	
  probiotic	
  and	
  
                    then	
  making	
  sure	
  that	
  vitamin	
  D	
  levels	
  are	
  that	
  -­‐-­‐	
  60	
  to	
  80	
  nanograms	
  per	
  
                    deciliter	
  because	
  of	
  the	
  immune	
  modulating	
  action	
  on	
  that.	
  	
  
	
  



                                                                                                                                                    22	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Yeah,	
  those	
  are	
  good	
  combinations	
  to	
  vitamin	
  D,	
  probiotics.	
  I'm	
  not	
  sure	
  
                       if	
  you	
  need	
  prebiotics	
  if	
  you’re	
  eating	
  a	
  lot	
  of	
  vegetables,	
  but	
  if	
  you're	
  not	
  
                       on	
  prebiotics	
  may	
  be	
  useful.	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Cool.	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        All	
   right.	
   Ben	
   says,	
   "Short	
   and	
   sweet:	
   what	
   type	
   of	
   eating	
   would	
   he	
  
                       recommend	
  for	
  a	
  lean	
  31-­‐year-­‐old,	
  strict	
  Paleo	
  for	
  1.5	
  years,	
  164	
  lbs	
  at	
  5	
  
                       feet	
   11	
   inches	
   who	
   is	
   looking	
   to	
   get	
   his	
   body	
   weight	
   up	
   to	
   180-­‐190	
  
                       pounds	
   on	
   Ripp’s	
   Starting	
   Strength.	
   I	
   am	
   only	
   1.5	
   months	
   in	
   and	
   slowly	
  
                       gaining	
   weight	
   and	
   progressing	
   on	
   Ripp’s	
   linear	
   path	
   while	
   maintaining	
  
                       strict	
  Paleo.	
  I	
  only	
  ask	
  if	
  Lalonde	
  thinks	
  there	
  is	
  another	
  way	
  of	
  eating	
  that	
  
                       would	
  be	
  more	
  beneficial	
  given	
  my	
  goals.	
  If	
  not,	
  coo.	
  I'll	
  keep	
  up	
  the	
  strict	
  
                       Paleo.	
   It	
   is	
   after	
   all	
   very	
   tasty	
   and	
   effective.	
   I	
   just	
   want	
   to	
   know	
   if	
   he	
  
                       thinks	
  this	
  is	
  the	
  best	
  path.	
  Thanks,	
  Deas.	
  Update	
  your	
  blog,	
  dude."	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     So	
  I'm	
  going	
  to	
  make	
  these	
  recommendations	
  assuming	
  that	
  you	
  are	
  not	
  
                       an	
  idiot	
  like	
  I	
  was,	
  and	
  that	
  you're	
  not	
  doing	
  any	
  metabolic	
  conditioning	
  
                       or	
  high-­‐intensity	
  exercise.	
  The	
  diet	
  I'm	
  going	
  to	
  prescribe	
  is	
  not	
  good	
  for	
  
                       that,	
   but	
   it	
   will	
   be	
   great	
   for	
   putting	
   on	
   muscle	
   mass	
   on	
   a	
   heavy	
   lifting	
  
                       schedule.	
   So	
   I	
   would	
   eat	
   a	
   diet	
   that	
   is	
   ketogenic	
   where	
   you're	
   sticking	
  
                       mostly	
  to	
  meat	
  and	
  low	
  GI	
  vegetables.	
  Organ	
  meats	
  like	
  liver	
  and	
  heart	
  
                       are	
  going	
  to	
  give	
  you	
  a	
  huge	
  bang	
  for	
  your	
  buck	
  and	
  then	
  a	
  lot	
  of	
  animal	
  
                       fat	
  and	
  hopefully	
  from	
  good	
  sources.	
  	
  
	
  
	
                     One	
   of	
   my	
   favorite	
   things	
   to	
   do	
   when	
   I	
   was	
   running	
   that	
   experiment	
   was	
  
                       using	
  liver	
  pâté	
  and	
  foie	
  gras	
  and	
  mousses	
  all	
  kind	
  of	
  that	
  stuff.	
  Be	
  careful	
  
                       with	
  the	
  mousses,	
  they	
  sometimes	
  throw	
  gluten	
  in	
  there.	
  So	
  just	
  read	
  the	
  
                       ingredients	
   carefully,	
   and	
   then	
   other	
   good	
   source	
   of	
   fats	
   like	
   avocados,	
  
                       olives,	
  coconut,	
  palm	
  oil,	
  and	
  all	
  that	
  stuff.	
  You	
  can	
  throw	
  that	
  in.	
  maybe	
  
                       some	
  high	
  fat	
  fermented	
  dairy.	
  I	
  would	
  not	
  recommend	
  a	
  gallon	
  of	
  milk	
  a	
  
                       day.	
  Please	
  do	
  not	
  do	
  that.	
  It's	
  just	
  -­‐-­‐	
  it's	
  not	
  good,	
  and	
  I'm	
  not	
  going	
  to	
  
                       take	
  the	
  time	
  to	
  discuss	
  all	
  of	
  the	
  effects	
  -­‐-­‐	
  detrimental	
  health	
  effects	
  that	
  
                       are	
  involved	
  with	
  that	
  but	
  just	
  don’t	
  do	
  that.	
  And	
  get	
  plenty	
  of	
  sleep.	
  	
  
	
  
	
                     When	
  I	
  ran	
  that	
  experiment,	
  I	
  put	
  on	
  15	
  -­‐-­‐	
  at	
  least	
  15	
  pounds	
  of	
  muscle	
  
                       mass.	
  I	
  actually	
  leaned	
  out	
  and	
  went	
  from	
  165	
  to	
  180.	
  So	
  it	
  works	
  pretty	
  
                       well,	
  but	
  there's	
  not	
  a	
  whole	
  lot	
  of	
  glucose	
  that's	
  going	
  to	
  be	
  provided	
  by	
  
                       that	
   diet	
   so	
   just	
   don’t	
   be	
   a	
   moron	
   and	
   metcon	
   yourself,	
   do	
   the	
   metcon	
  
                       suicide	
  that	
  I	
  did.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        So	
  that's	
  where	
  -­‐-­‐	
  and	
  it's	
  so	
  hard	
  in	
  the	
  population	
  of	
  folks	
  that	
  we	
  kind	
  
                       of	
   cater	
   to.	
   Folks	
   are	
   completely	
   unwilling	
   to	
   really	
   focus	
   on	
   one	
   area.	
   So	
  
                       what	
   Matt	
   is	
   saying	
   here	
   is	
   no	
   metcon.	
   Lift	
   heavy	
   weights,	
   walk,	
   and	
  

                                                                                                                                                           23	
  
	
  
                       sleep,	
  and	
  then	
  you	
  should	
  get	
  some	
  pretty	
  good	
  bang	
  for	
  your	
  buck	
  out	
  
                       of	
  that	
  approach	
  to	
  eating.	
  This	
  is	
  also	
  where	
  I	
  went	
  seriously	
  awry	
  with	
  
                       all	
   this	
   stuff	
   where	
   I	
   would	
   -­‐-­‐	
   Olympic	
   lifted,	
   did	
   gymnastics,	
   ate	
   a	
  
                       ketogenic	
   diet	
   and	
   felt	
   great	
   on	
   that.	
   I	
   had	
   good	
   performance.	
   Then	
  
                       started	
   getting	
   into	
   CrossFit	
   and	
   could	
   never	
   really	
   get	
   the	
   sweet	
   spot	
   on	
  
                       the	
   amount	
   of	
   carbs	
   that	
   I	
   had	
   to	
   eat	
   to	
   maintain	
   that.	
   And	
   I	
   started	
  
                       gaining	
  body	
  fat	
  because	
  of	
  the	
  cortisol	
  induced	
  from	
  the	
  training.	
  	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Yeah.	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        So	
  I	
  was	
  less	
  lean	
  regardless	
  of	
  what	
  calorie	
  intake	
  level	
  or	
  carbohydrate	
  
                       intake	
  level	
  I	
  was	
  at.	
  	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Yeah,	
   I'm	
   doing	
   a	
   lot	
   more	
   traveling	
   right	
   now,	
   and	
   I	
   can	
   tell	
   there's	
   a	
  
                       little	
   bit	
   of	
   chubble	
   around	
   the	
   midline	
   that's	
   reappearing	
   so	
   cortisol	
   is	
  
                       huge	
  here.	
  	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        You	
   guys	
   are	
   wrong.	
   You	
   know	
   you	
   need	
   the	
   metcon	
   to	
   be	
   lean.	
   Come	
  
                       on,	
  people.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Works	
  great	
  for	
  chicks.	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        David	
   says,	
   "Matt	
   mentioned	
   in	
   an	
   interview	
   he	
   only	
   eats	
   two	
   meals	
   a	
  
                       day.	
   I	
   am	
   interested	
   in	
   how	
   he	
   gets	
   enough	
   calories	
   to	
   support	
   his	
  
                       performance	
   efforts.	
   When	
   does	
   he	
   eat	
   and	
   what	
   does	
   it	
   consist	
   of	
   –	
  
                       both	
  workout	
  days	
  and	
  rest	
  days?	
  Also,	
  if	
  this	
  is	
  an	
  individual	
  thing	
  or	
  if	
  it	
  
                       is	
  something	
  he	
  recommends	
  for	
  everyone?"	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     I	
   will	
   -­‐-­‐	
   as	
   a	
   scientist,	
   I	
   will	
   never	
   say	
   using	
   an	
   experiment	
   of	
  n=1	
   that	
   you	
  
                       should	
  do	
  this	
  because	
  it	
  worked	
  for	
  me	
  because	
  it	
  is	
  completely	
  illogical.	
  
                       Robb	
  was	
  also	
  worried	
  at	
  some	
  point	
  that	
  I	
  might	
  not	
  be	
  getting	
  enough	
  
                       calories,	
  but	
  I	
  documented	
  an	
  entire	
  day's	
  worth	
  of	
  food,	
  and	
  I	
  still	
  keep	
  
                       sending	
   him	
   my	
   meals	
   from	
   time	
   to	
   time.	
   He	
   is	
   like,	
   "Oh,	
   okay,	
   yeah,	
  
                       you're	
  eating	
  a	
  lot."	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        It	
  is	
  Epic	
  Meal	
  Time	
  Lalonde	
  style.	
  	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     My	
  lunch	
  is	
  enormous	
  but	
  -­‐-­‐	
  so	
  that	
  being	
  said,	
  I	
  don’t	
  recommend	
  this	
  to	
  
                       everyone.	
   If	
   you	
   are	
   highly	
   stressed	
   or	
   if	
   you're	
   metabolically	
   deranged	
  
                       like	
  you	
  have	
  type	
  2	
  diabetes,	
  don’t	
  mess	
  with	
  intermittent	
  fasting	
  -­‐-­‐	
  not	
  
                       good	
   for	
   you.	
   This	
   approach	
   works	
   for	
   me,	
   but	
   I'm	
   not	
   going	
   to	
  
                       recommend	
  it	
  to	
  everyone	
  just	
  because	
  it	
  works	
  for	
  me.	
  But	
  here	
  goes.	
  
                       Here	
  is	
  what	
  I	
  do.	
  I	
  skip	
  breakfast	
  on	
  weekdays	
  because	
  it	
  allows	
  me	
  to	
  
                       sleep	
  in,	
  and	
  I'm	
  not	
  really	
  hungry	
  in	
  the	
  morning.	
  	
  

                                                                                                                                                                     24	
  
	
  
	
  
	
     I’ll	
   typically	
   eat	
   lunch	
   at	
   noon.	
   Lunch	
   is	
   comprised	
   of	
   a	
   hefty	
   portion	
   of	
  
       meat,	
   and	
   by	
   hefty,	
   I	
   mean	
   one	
   pound	
   to	
   one	
   and	
   a	
   half	
   pounds	
   of	
   meat.	
  
       I	
   get	
   all	
   of	
   my	
   meat	
   from	
   a	
   local	
   farm	
   called	
   Chestnut	
   Farms,	
   and	
   they	
  
       have	
  a	
  CSA	
  and	
  they're	
  really,	
  really	
  awesome.	
  And	
  I	
  will	
  have	
  all	
  of	
  the	
  
       rendered	
  fat	
  with	
  that	
  meat	
  -­‐-­‐	
  that	
  came	
  with	
  that	
  meat.	
  I	
  do	
  not	
  throw	
  
       any	
   fat	
   away.	
   I'll	
   place	
   all	
   of	
   that	
   on	
   top	
   of	
   a	
   mound	
   of	
   like	
   green	
   leafy	
  
       vegetables,	
  typically	
  like	
  a	
  50/50	
  mix	
  of	
  spinach	
  and	
  then	
  Spring	
  Mix.	
  And	
  
       then	
  I'll	
  top	
  that	
  off	
  with	
  a	
  portion	
  of	
  starchy	
  vegetables	
  or	
  tubers.	
  I	
  like	
  
       the	
   slow-­‐roasted	
   parsnips.	
   I	
   like	
   some	
   yucca	
   root	
   and	
   some	
   sweet	
  
       potatoes.	
  Those	
  are	
  my	
  favorites.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     And	
  then	
  I'll	
  heat	
  everything	
  in	
  the	
  microwave	
  together	
  such	
  that	
  the	
  fat	
  
       mixes	
   with	
   the	
   greens	
   and	
   that	
   allows	
   you	
   to	
   absorb	
   more	
   fat-­‐soluble	
  
       vitamins	
  from	
  the	
  greens.	
  And	
  then	
  if	
  I	
  eat	
  like	
  a	
  dish	
  of	
  meat	
  that	
  was	
  
       prepared	
  on	
  the	
  side,	
  then	
  I'll	
  just	
  grab	
  the	
  greens,	
  put	
  the	
  tubers	
  on	
  top,	
  
       put	
   some	
   butter	
   and	
   some	
   Himalayan	
   salt,	
   and	
   I'll	
   heat	
   everything	
  
       separately,	
  and	
  I'll	
  eat	
  that.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     That's	
   typically	
   lunch	
   and	
   sometimes	
   I'll	
   have	
   like	
   an	
   entire	
   bottle	
   of	
  
       fermented	
   -­‐-­‐	
   what	
   do	
   they	
   call	
   it	
   -­‐-­‐	
   the	
   cultured	
   coconut	
   milk	
   which	
   is	
  
       really	
   awesome,	
   and	
   it	
   has	
   both	
   prebiotics	
   and	
   probiotics	
   in	
   it,	
   and	
   that's	
  
       really	
   great.	
   You	
   get	
   that	
   from	
   So	
   Delicious	
   and	
   Whole	
   Foods	
   sells	
   it.	
   I	
  
       sometimes	
  have	
  vegetables	
  on	
  the	
  side,	
  some	
  celery	
  or	
  a	
  seaweed	
  salad	
  
       or	
  something	
  like	
  that.	
  It's	
  big,	
  like	
  lunch	
  takes	
  me	
  over	
  an	
  hour	
  to	
  eat	
  it’s	
  
       a	
  lot	
  of	
  food.	
  I'll	
  train	
  between	
  5:00	
  and	
  7:00	
  p.m.	
  And	
  then	
  I'll	
  eat	
  my	
  last	
  
       meal	
   at	
   around	
   8:00	
   p.m.	
   So	
   that	
   means	
   that	
   I	
   fast	
   for	
   16	
   hours	
   until	
  
       noon	
  the	
  next	
  day.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     And	
  then	
  I	
  will	
  occasionally	
  have	
  a	
  low-­‐protein	
  dinner	
  just	
  to	
  make	
  sure	
  
       that	
   autophagy	
   kicks	
   in.	
   I	
   often	
   go	
   back	
   home	
   to	
   Ottawa,	
   and	
   whenever	
   I	
  
       do	
  I	
  get	
  some	
  coaching	
  from	
  Pierre	
  Augé,	
  who	
  is	
  really	
  awesome.	
  I	
  can't	
  
       say	
  enough	
  good	
  things	
  about	
  the	
  guy.	
  Pierreias	
  this	
  -­‐-­‐	
  he's	
  a	
  scientist	
  at	
  
       heart.	
   He	
   just	
   keeps	
   tinkering	
   with	
   stuff	
   and	
   looking	
   for	
   new	
   things	
   to	
   try	
  
       out	
  and	
  always	
  seeking	
  to	
  improve	
  his	
  game.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     He	
  was	
  telling	
  me	
  about	
  -­‐-­‐	
  he	
  asked	
  me	
  a	
  question.	
  He	
  was	
  like,	
  "There	
  
       are	
   these	
   Bulgarian	
   lifters	
   that	
   would	
   eat	
   meat	
   ad	
   libitum	
   during	
   the	
  
       week,	
  but	
  then	
  on	
  the	
  weekends	
  they	
  would	
  eat	
  just	
  greens	
  and	
  fat	
  and	
  
       no	
   meat.	
   And	
   I	
   was	
   wondering	
   if	
   that	
   was	
   like	
   intermittent	
   fasting	
   or	
  
       blah,	
   blah,	
   blah."	
   And	
   I	
   didn’t	
   have	
   an	
   answer	
   for	
   him	
   at	
   the	
   time.	
   But	
  
       after	
   doing	
   more	
   research,	
   I	
   found	
   out	
   that	
   one	
   of	
   the	
   benefits	
   of	
  
       intermittent	
   fasting	
   is	
   turning	
   on	
   of	
   autophagy	
   which	
   is	
   essentially	
   the	
  
       cell	
   cleaning	
   house	
   and	
   recycling	
   a	
   bunch	
   of	
   junk	
   and	
   turning	
   back	
   into	
  

                                                                                                                                               25	
  
	
  
       amino	
   acids	
   and	
   its	
   basic	
   components.	
   And	
   autophagy	
   is	
   turned	
   on	
   -­‐-­‐	
  
       actually	
  is	
  turned	
  off	
  when	
  you	
  eat	
  a	
  lot	
  of	
  protein	
  specifically	
  branched-­‐
       chain	
  amino	
  acids.	
  So	
  protein	
  starvation	
  can	
  turn	
  on	
  autophagy.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     So	
  if	
  you	
  don’t	
  eat	
  a	
  whole	
  lot	
  of	
  protein	
  for	
  a	
  period	
  of	
  time,	
  then	
  you're	
  
       going	
   to	
   turn	
   on	
   this	
   process	
   which	
   means	
   that	
   you	
   can	
   fast	
   without	
  
       fasting	
   or	
   get	
   one	
   of	
   the	
   beneficial	
   aspects	
   of	
   fasting	
   without	
   fasting	
  
       which	
   is	
   really	
   interesting.	
   So	
   you	
   can	
   keep	
   eating	
   some	
   food	
   but	
   still	
   get	
  
       the	
  beneficial	
  effects	
  of	
  fasting.	
  You're	
  not	
  going	
  to	
  get	
  used	
  to	
  dipping	
  
       into	
  your	
  energy	
  source	
  if	
  you	
  still	
  eat	
  something,	
  but	
  you're	
  still	
  going	
  to	
  
       get	
  autophagy	
  going	
  on	
  which	
  is	
  kind	
  of	
  cool.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     Maybe	
  I	
  should	
  mention	
  not	
  long	
  ago	
  I	
  tried	
  exercising	
  in	
  a	
  fasted	
  state,	
  
       and	
   that	
   broke	
   me.	
   It	
   really	
   did.	
   I	
   was	
   not	
   expecting	
   that.	
   I	
   was	
   expecting	
  
       something	
  positive	
  to	
  come	
  out	
  of	
  it,	
  but	
  I	
  -­‐-­‐	
  I	
  did	
  it	
  for	
  only	
  one	
  week	
  and	
  
       it	
   kicked	
   my	
   ass.	
   So	
   I	
   was	
   following	
   the	
   same	
   protocol,	
   but	
   instead	
   of	
  
       eating	
  at	
  noon	
  I	
  worked	
  out	
  between	
  noon	
  and	
  1:00	
  and	
  then	
  I	
  had	
  my	
  
       largest	
   meal	
   immediately	
   after	
   that.	
   But	
   what	
   I	
   found	
   is	
   that	
   I	
   started	
  
       under-­‐eating	
   because	
   I	
   wasn’t	
   all	
   that	
   hungry	
   immediately	
   after	
   a	
  
       workout,	
  and	
  then	
  even	
  in	
  the	
  evening	
  I	
  wasn’t	
  all	
  that	
  hungry.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     And	
  what	
  happened	
  is	
  by	
  the	
  end	
  of	
  one	
  week	
  of	
  doing	
  this,	
  I	
  woke	
  up	
  
       shivering	
  one	
  evening	
  and	
  wanting	
  to	
  throw	
  up.	
  And	
  I	
  couldn’t	
  sleep	
  well,	
  
       and	
   my	
   sleep	
   just	
   went	
   to	
   crap,	
   and	
   my	
   libido	
   went	
   way	
   down	
   like	
  
       everything	
  just	
  started	
  heading	
  south.	
  I'm	
  like,	
  "Whoa!	
  This	
  has	
  to	
  stop.	
  
       This	
  is	
  not	
  bad."	
  I	
  gave	
  like	
  Robb	
  a	
  call,	
  “Does	
  this	
  sound	
  like	
  hypercortisol	
  
       to	
  you?	
  What's	
  going	
  on?	
  He's	
  like,	
  "Yeah,	
  just	
  back	
  away	
  from	
  the	
  fasted	
  
       training."	
  	
  
	
  
	
     I'm	
  very	
  strict	
  with	
  my	
  diet.	
  I	
  very	
  rarely	
  cheat	
  because	
  it	
  hurts	
  me	
  really	
  
       bad.	
  Fructose	
  hurts	
  me	
  really,	
  really	
  bad.	
  And	
  I	
  fast	
  regularly	
  during	
  the	
  
       week.	
   So	
   I	
   think	
   that	
   what	
   I	
   was	
   doing	
   was	
   fine,	
   and	
   I	
   didn’t	
   need	
   to	
  
       throw	
  this	
  in.	
  But	
  I	
  was	
  stupid.	
  I	
  threw	
  it	
  in	
  like	
  five	
  times	
  a	
  week;	
  maybe	
  I	
  
       should	
  have	
  tried	
  like	
  one	
  time	
  a	
  week	
  and	
  see	
  what	
  the	
  heck	
  would	
  have	
  
       happened.	
  	
  
	
  
	
     Also,	
  I	
  should	
  mention	
  that	
  on	
  the	
  weekends	
  I	
  overeat	
  just	
  to	
  make	
  sure	
  
       that	
   my	
   body	
   is	
   not	
   feeling	
   like	
   it's	
   starved	
   and	
   turning	
   on	
   various	
  
       mechanisms	
   and	
   lowering	
   metabolism.	
   So	
   my	
   breakfast	
   on	
   the	
  
       weekends,	
  that's	
  Saturday	
  and	
  Sunday,	
  is	
  going	
  to	
  be	
  either	
  one	
  pound	
  of	
  
       sausage	
  or	
  one	
  pound	
  of	
  bacon	
  with	
  four	
  duck	
  eggs	
  and	
  then	
  a	
  little	
  bit	
  of	
  
       berries	
   on	
   the	
   side.	
   I'll	
   do	
   that	
   both	
   days,	
   and	
   I	
   will	
   actually	
   not	
   eat	
   lunch	
  
       because	
   I'm	
   not	
   hungry,	
   but	
   I	
   will	
   eat	
   dinner	
   on	
   those	
   days.	
   So	
   I'm	
   eating	
  
       a	
  lot	
  of	
  food	
  on	
  those	
  days.	
  	
  

                                                                                                                                               26	
  
	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        And	
   Matt,	
   give	
   folks	
   some	
   -­‐-­‐	
   what	
   are	
   your	
   max	
   lifts	
   right	
   now?	
   Like	
  
                       you're	
  doing	
  pretty	
  good	
  on	
  the	
  powerlifts.	
  	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Yeah,	
  yeah.	
  I'd	
  like	
  to	
  focus	
  on	
  that	
  because	
  I	
  really	
  suck	
  on	
  the	
  Olympic	
  
                       lifts.	
   My	
   deadlift	
   conventional	
   is	
   500,	
   my	
   sumo	
   is	
   455.	
   I’d	
   got	
   some	
  
                       coaching	
  by	
  Pierre	
  Augé	
  that	
  -­‐-­‐	
  and	
  he	
  works	
  with	
  Willy	
  Albert	
  actually,	
  
                       which	
   is	
   a	
   record	
   holder	
   in	
   the	
   sumo	
   deadlift	
   in	
   his	
   weight	
   class.	
   Pierre	
  
                       and	
   Willy	
   give	
   a	
   good	
   seminar	
   on	
   -­‐-­‐	
   a	
   weekend	
   long	
   seminar	
   on	
   power	
  
                       lifting	
   and	
   Olympic	
   weightlifting,	
   by	
   the	
   way,	
   so	
   you	
   should	
   check	
   that	
  
                       out.	
   Those	
   are	
   two	
   totally	
   legit	
   dudes.	
   Anyways,	
   I'm	
   trying	
   to	
   get	
   that	
  
                       sumo	
   deadlift	
   to	
   catch	
   up	
   to	
   my	
   conventional	
   deadlift;	
   so	
   conventional	
  
                       500,	
  sumo	
  455.	
  Pierre	
  took	
  my	
  sumo	
  from	
  425	
  to	
  455,	
  so	
  that	
  was	
  good.	
  
                       Overhead	
  press	
  is	
  200,	
  bench	
  press	
  is	
  355,	
  back	
  squat	
  is	
  425,	
  front	
  squat	
  
                       is	
  335.	
  Now,	
  I	
  weigh	
  180	
  pounds.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        180.	
  And	
  then	
  you're	
  still	
  doing	
  a	
  little	
  bit	
  of	
  metcon	
  too	
  like	
  if	
  we	
  ever	
  
                       wanted	
   to	
   pick	
   you	
   for	
   an	
   event,	
   we	
   would	
   probably	
   peel	
   that	
   out	
   and	
  
                       would	
  probably	
  -­‐-­‐	
  I	
   suspect	
   probably	
   see	
   an	
   easy	
   10%	
  bump	
   on	
   top	
   of	
   all	
  
                       of	
  that	
  stuff.	
  	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Yeah,	
  possible.	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Yeah,	
  yeah.	
  	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        All	
   right,	
   Matt.	
   It's	
   time	
   for	
   your	
   three	
   questions	
   because	
   I	
   got	
   to	
   go	
   train	
  
                       people.	
  	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     All	
  right.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Oh,	
  Lord!	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Robb	
   Wolf,	
   Question	
   Number	
   1:	
   	
   This	
   compound	
   is	
   found	
   in	
   green	
   tea,	
  
                       and	
  it's	
  abbreviated	
  as	
  EGCG.	
  Can	
  you	
  pronounce	
  it	
  properly?	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Oh,	
  Jesus!	
  ĕp′·∙ē·∙ga′·∙lō·∙ka′·∙tĕ·∙kın	
  găl	
  lāt.	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Wrong.	
  ĕp′·∙ē·∙ga′·∙lō·∙-­‐-­‐	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        ka′·∙tĕ·∙kın.	
  găl	
  lāt.	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     ka′·∙tĕ·∙chın,	
  yes.	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Dude,	
  don’t	
  talk	
  to	
  me	
  about	
  pronunciation,	
  my	
  French-­‐Canadian	
  pal.	
  	
  

                                                                                                                                                          27	
  
	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     What	
  are	
  you	
  talking	
  about?	
  Okay.	
  Just	
  -­‐-­‐	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        I	
   kept	
   on	
   wanting	
   to	
   leap	
   in	
   and	
   restate	
   autophagy,	
   but	
   however	
   you	
  
                       were	
  saying	
  it	
  was	
  pretty	
  good.	
  	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Potāto.	
  Potăto.	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Okay.	
  Lay	
  it	
  into	
  me.	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     All	
   right.	
   Number	
   2:	
   	
   This	
   substance	
   is	
   secreted	
   by	
   fat	
   cells.	
   The	
   word	
  
                       begins	
  with	
  the	
  letters	
  AD	
  and	
  it	
  ends	
  with	
  -­‐nectin.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Oh,	
  Jesus!	
  Adepanopectin.	
  	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     No,	
  it's	
  wrong.	
  Adeponectin.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Adeponectin.	
  	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     All	
   right.	
   Number	
   3:	
   	
   This	
   condition	
   renders	
   the	
   individuals	
   who	
   suffer	
  
                       from	
  is	
  sensitive	
  to	
  sunshine.	
  One	
  of	
  your	
  clients	
  had	
  this	
  condition,	
  and	
  
                       you	
  constantly	
  talk	
  about	
  it	
  in	
  your	
  seminars	
  about	
  how	
  she	
  recovered	
  by	
  
                       avoiding	
  gluten.	
  What	
  is	
  the	
  name	
  of	
  the	
  condition?	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        Porphyria	
  cutanea	
  tarda.	
  
	
  
Matt	
  Lalonde:	
     Damn!	
  You	
  got	
  it	
  right,	
  yeah.	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        Yay!	
  We	
  got	
  one.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        I	
  just	
  have	
  to	
  pay	
  attention.	
  I	
  get	
  all	
  spun	
  up	
  and	
  excited.	
  	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        Robb,	
   we're	
   going	
   to	
   have	
   to	
   come	
   up	
   with	
   your	
   punishment	
   after	
   the	
  
                       show.	
  	
  
	
  
Robb	
  Wolf:	
        One	
  out	
  of	
  three.	
  Not	
  too	
  bad.	
  
	
  
Andy	
  Deas:	
        So	
  Matt,	
  are	
  you	
  going	
  to	
  come	
  back	
  and	
  continue	
  to	
  answer	
  the	
  never	
  
                       ending	
  list	
  of	
  Matt	
  Lalonde?	
  
	
  
	
  	
  
	
  



                                                                                                                                                28	
  
	
  

				
DOCUMENT INFO
Shared By:
Categories:
Tags:
Stats:
views:9
posted:1/31/2012
language:English
pages:28