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					                                      ADELAIDE INSTITUTE
PO Box 3300
Adelaide 5067                                            Online
Australia                                             ISSN 1440-9828
Tel: 61+88331 0808
Mob: 61+4170 88217
Email: toben@adelaideinstitute.org
Web: http://www.adelaideinstitute.org
                                                      May 2009 No 441
      _____________________________________________________________________




                      Your Voice in a World where Zionism, Steel, and Fire have turned Justice Mute
                                http://www.freearabvoice.org/ alloush44@hotmail.com
                                                  _____________________
                                Ibrahim Alloush: On The Question of 'Pro-Palestinian' Jews
Frequently Palestinians are set up in a guilt trip. They have to   international relations. They can't even negotiate. They can
prove that they do not hate Jews. The proving really never         only plea. Only when they learn that forgiveness in a state of
ends until you eventually embrace the doctrine of "Israel's"       weakness and defeat is NOT a sign of their magnanimity, but
security. But, really, Palestinians have NOTHING to prove to       exactly of their weakness and defeat, will they stop sounding
the invader. It is exactly the other way around. A Jew who         pathetic, even to public opinion in the enemy camp.
claims to be anti-Zionist is the one who has something to          In short, we have nothing to apologize for here. On the
prove (to himself first of all), not a Palestinian who is fighting contrary, those who claim to support us, but only on
a Jewish occupation.                                               conditions such as condemning the human bombs tactic,
If someone supports you, that means they support your cause        accepting the myths of the Hollowcause, and reassuring Jews
to liberate your land from an occupation. It doesn't mean that     that their presence on our land is legitimate, even desirable,
you have to change your strategic objective away from              are not really supporting us at all. They are indirectly asking
liberation so they can start supporting you. Otherwise, you        us to embrace their frame of mind so they can support us.
have already lost your cause before even beginning. 'Support'      But what does that really mean? Does it mean that they are
which comes with attached strings is no support at all, but an     supporting us or that we are supporting them?! Who gains
impediment.                                                        here? Who loses? Think about it this way: we gain their
We have a solid case. We can justify it using history, politics,   support if we agree to lose ourselves.
Islam, Arab nationalism, or even Marxism. We can argue it          With all respect due to the hard efforts of many of my
out with hard logic, cold facts, and vivid art if need be. You     compatriots, I believe we can never win over public opinion in
name it, we can probably use it to argue our cause. We don't       the enemy camp by losing ourselves, i.e., by ceding
need to give up the cause of liberation to win our 'cause'.        beforehand the alleged 'right' of the Jews in Palestine, under
After all, what else is there besides the liberation of the land!  the banner of a racist or a non-racist "Israel". Palestine is
If they are not supporting THAT cause, then they are not           occupied land. What we are facing there is not just the usual
supporting our cause period. And if we cannot argue our            invading army, but a whole settler-invader entity. Thus, each
cause with the benefit of all the logical and historical tools at  part of that entity proclaimed in 1948 is illegitimate, and is
our disposal, then we are not going to benefit anything from       consequently a legitimate target.
adopting the narrative of our enemy to 'support' our cause,        We were not invaded only by soldiers to be stepping out of line
are we?                                                            when we target more than soldiers here. This is not to
The history of liberation struggles worldwide has shown clearly    mention that soldiers are much more inaccessible. Similarly, if
that public opinion in the enemy camp does not start to move       we help expose the hoax of the gas chambers, we do not risk
against the policies of its government until a liberation          sounding 'anti-semiticist'. We just help unmask the mantra of
movement starts to inflict significant and unacceptable losses     Jewish/Zionist power worldwide, and thereof, the alleged need
on its enemy. That includes human, as well as political and        for a Jewish 'safe haven' in Palestine. [For a good discussion
economic, losses. That is the story of the U.S. in Vietnam,        from a specialist on the non-existence of the gas chambers,
France in Algeria, and recently, "Israel" in South Lebanon. In     and the need for an international commission to investigate
other words, without action on the ground, without popular         Auschwitz, see part three of the following paper:
uprisings, military operations, and yes, human bombs if need       http://www.freearabvoice.org/Faurisson.htm
be, public opinion in the enemy camp is likely to wallow in the    There are many good people in this world who are willing to
spoils of the conquest, not to side with the oppressed. Only       support a good cause when rational political arguments are
when a liberation movement starts to make the cost of an           presented on its behalf without the 'love thy enemy' crap. We
occupation greater than the benefit, will those voices of          don't need to be contrite to gain support. We need to pursue
'reason' in the enemy camp start to gain ground.                   every possible effort to defend our cause on our terms, not
On the other hand, if public opinion in the enemy camp only        those of public opinion in the enemy camp. However, if you
hears those pathetic voices of 'reason' in our camp calling on     disagree and feel that we need to 'play politics' instead, then
fellow Palestinians not to do or say anything that might offend    at least let's agree that just like Zionists use their alleged need
invaders because that would adversely affect the effort for        to appease hard-liners in their camp to extract this or that
their hearts and minds, then we are definitely going to lose       extra concession out of you, that you too should probably do
public opinion in the enemy camp. In these Jewish times,           the same. And that's just for getting a small part of what you
weaklings cannot win over anybody. They only get used and          want. It's a Jewish world out there..
abused, as recent experience with Arab presidents and kings,       http://www.freearabvoice.org/readerscorner/onProPal
as well as Palestinian negotiators, has shown. Those who           estinianJews.htm
cannot be a credible threat cannot be credible players in

                                                                                                                                    1
                     Zionists: We hate you because you are evil, not because you are Jewish
                                                  KHALED AMAYREH, April 1,2009
I have been under fire of late from two diametrically opposite    I am actually not against reconciliation between Palestinians
quarters. First, the fanatical, self-worshipping Zionists who     and Jews. I don‟t and never will view Jews as our inherent
think that non-Jewish suffering should never ever be              enemies. Some Jews are actually among the most effective
compared with Jewish suffering.                                   supporters of our national cause. Those we salute for their
Needless to say, this psychotic attitude stems from deep-         honesty and morality.
seated convictions that a Jew is a special creature whose life is However, it is obvious that true reconciliation in this part of
worth more than the rest of humanity. Haven‟t we noticed, for     the world requires that the slate be made thoroughly clean.
example, how Israel has made "Gilad Shalit", the Israeli          Usurped rights must be returned to rightful owners, and
soldier imprisoned by Hamas, a household name all over the        wrongs must be rectified. This I say to honest and
world, while next to nothing is mentioned about the estimated     conscientious Jews who are genuinely interested in justice and
10,000 Palestinian political and resistance prisoners             peace.
languishing in Israeli dungeons and concentration camps?          But to the Zionists I would like to say that the following: the
And, second, some pro-Palestinian activists who believe that I    latest point of contention is not about music or even peace.
should avoid invoking the holocaust in my writings lest this      This is first and foremost about human dignity of which the
help legitimize the Zionist narrative and inadvertently justify   children of the holocaust and their children and grand children
Israeli crimes against the Palestinian people.                    and great grandchildren have been trying to rob us.
To our pro-Palestinian activists, I, with all due respect, would  And whether you like it or not, for us, at least, you represent
like to say the following. I sincerely believe that we would be   the real Wehrmacht, the real SS and real Gestapo. You are the
walking in the path of immorality if we denied or belittled       Nazis of our time. This is what we see from our vantage point.
other people‟s suffering. Indeed, it is imperative that we retain This is what much of the world sees. This is what many honest
our humanity and moral fabric in the course of this legitimate    and conscientious Jews see.
struggle against the evil state. We must never imitate or         You stole our country, you murdered our people, you
emulate their ways and tactics. This would be self-defeating,     destroyed our homes, and you expelled and dispersed the bulk
self-destructive and immensely demoralizing. Moreover, we         of our people to the four corners of the world. And after all of
must refrain from saying or doing things that would make          this, you have audacity to dupe our children to sing and play
others portray us as inherent enemies of Jews, because we are     music to you? This is simply beyond, far beyond, Chutzpah.
not.                                                              Some of you habitually babble the word "hatred" whenever a
We also need to be constantly vigilant and cautious about         Palestinian asserts his people‟s humanity and dignity.
what we say and how we say it, lest we inadvertently              Well, you are really sick to the bone if you think Palestinians
besmirch the legitimacy of our just cause. Israel is so           must sacrifice their dignity in order to become a hate-free
manifestly criminal and ugly that we don‟t need to deny           people according to the Zionist lexicon. We will not pay tribute
anyone‟s suffering to prove this plain fact. In short, we don‟t   to the killers of our children, we will show respect to our
have to shoot ourselves in the foot. It is wrong and it hurts us  grave-diggers. Besides, who do you think you are anyway to
a lot.                                                            lecture us on hatred? After all, you represent and embody
Obviously, the Zionists‟ "arguments" are motivated, as always,    hatred in its ugliest form. The extirpation of a people from its
by ill-will and a malicious desire to silence critics of Israeli  ancestral homeland from time immemorial is a satanic act par
criminality whose phantasmagoric expressions we all               excellence. The destruction and obliteration of hundreds of
witnessed recently in the Gaza Strip.                             Palestinian towns and villages to fulfill Jewish nationalism is
The subject of contention this time has been an article I         diabolical act of the highest order.
published a few days ago, entitled "Shame on us," in which I      Your recent blitzkrieg in Gaza during which your Nazi-like
strongly criticized efforts by some dubious "peace activists" to  army ganged up on a helpless, unprotected civilian population,
bamboozle some innocent Palestinian children from some            exterminating them with bombs and missiles and incinerating
impoverished localities into playing music before "holocaust      their children with White Phosphorus proved once again that
survivors."                                                       you are no better than the hateful Nazis you curse day and
This is what happened last week when a dozen young                night for what they did to you sixty years ago.
musicians from the Jenin Refugee Camp, in the northern West       Well, try to get yourselves out of this cocoon of self-denial.
Bank, were taken surreptitiously to Tel Aviv where they were      The Palestinian people don‟t hate music nor do they teach
made to play a serenade before some elderly Zionists, some of     their kids to hate Jews or non-Jews, it is your evil and
whom veterans from the many criminal wars Israel had waged        murderous actions that generate hatred against you not only
on our people. And as I said in the article, the ethnic cleansing among Palestinians and Muslims but among many other
of Palestine was not carried out by UFOs but by the very          people around the world. Just look at your ugly faces in the
people our children are now being asked to cheer up.              mirror.
Understandably, the not-so-innocent event left many               www.uruknet.info?p=53074
Palestinians infuriated by the cheap exploitation of these kids
for Israeli hasbara purposes. As one who lost three uncles in
one day to Zionist murderers in 1954, I felt deeply wounded                                  *******
and humiliated by that event.
                                 Can we really separate Judaism from Zionism?
                                                        Ibrahim Alloush
Any which way you look at it, Judaism and Zionism cannot be        pieces in his On the Jewish Question, the term 'Zionism'
really separated from one another. Zionism is not a                wasn't even in circulation. Marx considered Judaism, as
misinterpretation of Judaism, it is rather the distilled essence   representative of what he called the 'practical Jew', a parasitic
of mainstream Judaism. When Marx shredded Judaism to               predatory ideology that befits capitalism in its decaying phase.

                                                                                                                                  2
And regardless of what Judaic racial teachings drawn from the     Jewish colonists against Palestinian Arabs was sanctioned by
Torah and Talmud might claim, Judaism is essentially doctrine     religious law from Rabbis on the basis of scriptures calling for
and practice, not a race or nationality. Therefore, being born    the abuse and mistreatment of the goyim.
of Jewish parents is not the same as being part of Judaism. It    For more on this, please go to:
follows that the critique of Judaism does not imply hostility to  Zionism and Judaism: Jewish law and relations with
some mythical "Jewish race", since Judaism is neither race nor    non-Jews
nationalism.                                                      http://www.freearabvoice.org/articles/JewishLawAndRelations
Indeed, Judaism is the culture of parasitic predation that was    WithNonJews.htm
incubated in the isolation of Ghettos. It's also marked by its    Therefore, one truly cannot possibly separate Judaism and
supra-national character, sniffing down upon any national         Zionism, especially if one is Palestinian Arab. And more and
allegiance. Hence, it's no wonder that globalism brought with     more, the two cannot be separated if you're a world citizen
it the globalization of the Hollowcause as a post-modern          being engulfed by globalism, that is, the hegemony of non-
secular fetish. Globalization is essentially about the hegemony   productive capitalistic exploitation, therefore, Jewish mores.
of non-productive financial capital, and usury, so globalization  Consequently, 'anti-Zionism' should be left to the politically-
meant that the world was also turning Jewish. It's also no        correct, because being truly anti-Zionist necessarily entails
wonder that anti-Judaism, as secular anti-Zionism or as anti-     being anti-Judaic.
Jewish religious fundamentalism (be it Christian or Muslim)       Moreover, it's true that anyone, Jewish or not, who supports
has become a staple of national liberation movements              the right of " Israel " to exist, and who justifies the power of
worldwide.                                                        Jewish elites in his country or worldwide is essentially pro-
As Arabs, we cannot be unaware of the fact that the two basic     Zionist. It's also true that there would have been imperialism
tenets of Zionism are to be found in Judaism. The concept of      even if there were no Zionism, and that Zionism would not
'divine promise' where Yahweh allegedly doles out our Arab        have thrived so well without imperialism. Yet all that does
Palestine to the Jew is the first of these tenets justifying the  not affect the main point here which is that Zionism and
usurpation of Palestine. The second of these tenets is of         Judaism cannot possibly be separated from one another.
course the concept of 'chosen people' where the Jew is
granted privilege over the goyim, that is, non-Jews.              http://www.freearabvoice.org/articles/CanwereallyseparateJud
Israel Shahak in his Jewish History, Jewish Religion, the         aismfromZionism.htm
Weight of Three Thousand Years provided ample evidence
showing how the brutality practiced by occupation forces and
                                            _______________________________________




                      Ron Kampeas : Goldstone to head              UNHRC Gaza inquiry, April 3, 2009
(JTA) -- A Jewish South African with close ties to Israel will       "It brings acknowledgment of what happened to them. It can
head a U.N. inquiry into war crimes during Israel's recent war       assist the healing process." He said his Jewishness and ties to
with Hamas in the Gaza Strip. Richard Goldstone, a trustee of        Israel were added values. "I've taken a deep interest in what
Hebrew University, will head the commission appointed Friday         happens in Israel," he said. "I'm associated with organizations
by the U.N.'s Human Rights Council.                                  that have worked in Israel. And I believe I can approach the
Israel did not say whether it will cooperate; it has in the past     daunting task that I have accepted in an evenhanded and
ignored other UNHRC probes, noting the body's tendency to            impartial manner."
single out Israel for criticism while ignoring other major           Joining him on the commission are Christine Chinkin, a British
violators.                                                           professor of international law; Pakistani lawyer Hina Jilani; and
Goldstone, who headed war crimes prosecutions in Rwanda              retired Irish Army Col. Desmond Travers.
and the former Yugoslavia, said he would investigate alleged         http://jta.org/news/article/2009/04/03/1004223/goldstone-
war crimes by both sides. "It's in the interest of the victims,"     to-head-unhrc-gaza-inquiry
Goldstone said in Geneva, where the UNHRC is headquartered.
                        __________________________________________________________________________
                Charles Waterstreet: The mob shows no mercy, Sydney Morning Herald, March 29, 2009
First, a sense of proportion; at the time Marcus Einfeld wrote a full of holes - inadequate, chaotic and mysterious - since the
false name for the driver of the Lexus at the heart of the sorry Ten Commandments. I make my living pointing this out.
case that saw him taken into custody this month, the             But the whole head-on-a-stick reaction of the press, radio
maximum, I repeat, the maximum fine for making a false           callers and lip-licking popularists is another matter; it reeks of
declaration of that nature was $1000. Second, a declaration:     what mobs have always wanted - blood, especially if it is
I've known Marcus for 30 years and worked on many cases          different from theirs. It is embarrassing to witness. It is cruel
with him - some contentious, some not.                           beyond words. It should be un-Australian. Oh, where are the
That said; has there ever been a more pernicious avalanche of    angels of mercy? When should you be able to call upon the
bile and hate by the press directed at a man who spent the       reservoir of good graces and goodwill you have built up over a
previous 70 years of his life attempting to build a better       lifetime? Why do we need sacrificial lambs?
Australia, a better world? A less circumspect man than myself    There were those who said Marcus Einfeld had too many
might have written that he is not the first Jew they have        speeding tickets on himself anyway. They called him a show
crucified.                                                       pony, a show-off. Australians have a deeply ingrained tall
Peter Fitzsimons of this paper is not alone to query the         grey-haired poppy syndrome; no one is better than anyone
crushing sentence of the Supreme Court. The legal basis of the   else, get out the hedge clippers if anyone dare grow too far.
punishment will be analysed on any appeal that is lodged. It     Our press are famous for their hatchet jobs.
will not be an easy task for an appeal court to choose between   Justice is not a scantily clad woman blindfolded as if about to
the judgment of a single judge and the misjudgment of a          be shot or whipped, holding a set of gram scales. Justice is
retired judge. It is not the law I want to address: it has been  humanity with a heart. Judges are first and foremost human


                                                                                                                                    3
beings with all the lacklustre luggage we each carry. They are       started the benefit of the doubt. The label is a badge of
able to judge others because they too share common origins,          honour.
frailties, characteristics, sorrows, temptations, passions of the    He overturned legal presumptions and brought a new equality
DNA.                                                                 before the law. He was aligned against the forces of the state.
The moment we expect a judge to become superhuman, then              He spent four years as president of the Human Rights and
they lose the right to judge others because, if they are not         Equal Opportunity Commission and 15 years as a justice of the
human, they are not humane. So when an ex-judge falters we           Federal Court. Judges work their butts so hard, it is a wonder
ought not act as if we were in the Colosseum and the lions and       that they can sit at all. They work for a fraction of what they
the Christians are tied with 10 minutes to go. We respect            could earn in private practice. Paul Sheehan has appointed
judges not for rising above us but only for taking on the            himself as the national undertaker commissioned to bury
burden and still being among us.                                     Living National Treasures.
I had lunch with Marcus the day before he went away. I               Marcus, in his retirement, became a legal activist Jew who
returned a copy of the Jewish Prayer Book he had                     reached out. He arranged to chart a legal system for
absentmindedly left in my chambers some months earlier. I            Palestinians to encourage the making of a nascent,
toyed with giving him Jeffrey Archer's A Prison Diary as a joke      peaceful Palestinian state. – emph. added by AI.
and, for once, resisted.                                             He scoured the bookshelves of Australian lawyers to send their
He had long embraced his guilt. He worried for his children          surplus legal books to Palestinian law libraries and to the
and his family; the Crown had earlier subpoenaed his 96-year-        libraries of other peoples trying to build fledgling states. He
old mother. Prostate cancer meant he bled often and needed           drafted the outline of a Palestinian constitution. He was
to urinate hourly. The eloquent evidence of the Aboriginal           foundation president of the Australian Paralympics Federation.
woman who spoke for him in court moistened his eyes as he            Unlike those men who build a financial or corporate empire
recalled her. There was no self pity. He had long graduated          and, having amassed their fortune, give some of it away,
from that school. He was a better person than he had been            Marcus built an empire of good works and a lifetime of selfless
and he was a damn great person.                                      dedication to creating a fairer society.
He has not driven a car since the day he gave false evidence.        Yes, he lied in court and continued to lie having been caught in
He broke his leg shortly afterwards. He travelled by bus with        a tragic web of his own making. Yes, the original offence was
his crutches to fulfill his obligations in town, at the Synagogue,   relatively trivial, but the consequences were serious. He did
in court. Suffering, like superannuation, it seems, does not         not lie to cover up murder, rape or robbery. His fall from grace
build a nest egg of goodwill in the public sphere.                   is truly Shakespearian; his character flaws revealed for all to
Much of his life involved public service. As a barrister, he was     see.
an advocate for the oppressed: workers' compensation                 Marcus was a patron of the Australian Association of Jewish
claimants, criminals and, ironically, the late Lionel Murphy         Holocaust Survivors and Descendants. It is ironic that a
after his acquittal of attempting to pervert the course of           German word best describes the media bloodlust that
justice. (That was before Murphy faced a Royal Commission            accompanied his fall: Schadenfreude. It means getting
into his links with Abe Saffron.) In the interests of being even     pleasure from the misfortune of others. There has been a
handed, I must add that not all Marcus's causes were for             shared schadenfreude within the media and elements of the
battlers: he won a trial for Don Lane on a charge of pot             public. We should resist it and remember that a 70-year-old,
possession. He was an advocate for causes that were                  once proud man faces two to three years looking "upon that
unpopular at the time, such as the alleged Greek Conspiracy          little tent of blue that the prisoners call the sky". After our last
cases, the convictions in the Ananda Marga case. He won his          lunch for some time to come, the least I could do was pay for
cases by force of persuasion, hard work and tenacity.                it.
As a judge, he was known as a bleeding heart. Herald                 Charles Waterstreet is a Sydney barrister and author.
columnist Paul Sheehan criticised him for having had more            cwaterstreet@gmail.com.au
successful appeals by the Government against his decisions on                       _______________________________
immigration as a justice of the Federal Court than any other                For more on the Einfeld matter view:
judge. Oh, give me a break. He gave the homeless, the                  www.adelaideinstitute.org/LEGAL2009/Einfeld.htm
disenfranchised, the stateless, boat people fleeing wars we
                                ____________________________________________
                              From the Archives: The Age, 10 November 2000
                                                   ________________
                                          Legal test on Holocaust Internet site
A controversial website is ignoring an order to remove               yesterday displayed photographs of Dr Toben visiting
insulting content. By Bill Birnbauer and Garry Barker.               Auschwitz and “entering the alleged gas chamber”. A caption
A legal battle will determine if material containing racial hatred   says: “The four alleged gas-induction holes do not exist! No
and Holocaust denial can be displayed on Australian-based            holes – no Holocaust!”
websites. The Australia/Israel & Jewish Affairs Council will ask     The Australia/Israel & Jewish Affairs Council‟s director of
the Federal Court to enforce orders that would remove a              community affairs, Jeremy Jones, last night said the families of
Holocaust-denial site from the World Wide Web. Lawyers for           Holocaust survivors flooded the council with complaints when
the council believe it is the first time such action has been        the Adelaide Institute site was established. The council had
taken in Australia.                                                  proved that the material was offensive under law and it was a
It comes after the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity                furphy to depict the matter as a freedom of speech issue.
Commission last month ordered the Adelaide Institute to              “The right to speech bears the responsibility not to deliberately
remove its website, which the commission said contained              use speech to the detriment of the quality of life of other
material that was insulting and offensive to Jewish people.          Australians,” Mr Jones said.
Commissioner Kathleen McEvoy also determined that institute          The lawyer representing the Jewish Affairs Council, Peter
director Fredrick Toben should apologise to the Jewish               Wertheim, said Dr Toben had been given until Tuesday this
community. Dr Toben last night said he would fight the Federal       week to comply with the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity
Court move. “If they win this battle, free speech is gone,” he       Commission‟s orders. The Federal Court would now look at the
said. “You journalists will be next. If they can silence me they     evidence and would be asked to direct the institute to remove
can silence anybody. It‟s dictatorship that they want to             the site and apologise. Dr Toben, a revisionist historian, last
impose.” The main page of the Adelaide Institute‟s website           year spent seven months in a German jail after a judge found


                                                                                                                                       4
he had tried “to present the extermination of European Jewry       Canadian Ken McVay, founder of the Nizkor Education Project
in Nazi German death camps as having been invented by              that is the world‟s largest Holocaust resource website, said
Jewish circles”.                                                   unclear laws created problems. “Australia is also in a position
Meanwhile, visiting cyber-hate experts yesterday urged the         to do something about dealing with cyber-stalking (Internet-
Federal Government to act against racist and terrorist             based attacks on individuals). It is only a matter of time
propaganda and vitriolic attacks on individuals on then Net.       before someone here who has been active fighting this kind of
With the exception of the European Union, few countries had        activity is targeted and hurt.” Because Australia had not been
laws enabling such attacks to be prosecuted, they said. “You       subject to “cyber-warfare”, it could encourage international
need strong laws,” said Michael Whine, an author and a             cooperation and examine ways to deal with the problem.
director of the Board of Deputies of British Jews. “That doesn‟t
mean you must legislate on everything, but you need laws to                                 *******
make parameters within which society can live.”
                                       _______________________________
                         Opinion: Khatami is just Ahmadinejad with a silver tongue
       The former Iranian president is more dangeroud than the present one, writes Michael Rubin.
                                      The Australian, March 25 2009
FORMER Iranian president Mohammad Khatami will                     negotiation and confidence-building, and a covert policy, which
speak at La Trobe University's Centre for Dialogue                 was continuation of the activities."
tomorrow. According to centre director Joseph                      At a campaign stop in Bushehr on March 8 this year, Khatami
Camilleri, Khatami's legacy was significant because he             himself angrily took on those who would credit incumbent
"articulated a powerful and coherent message in                    President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad for Iran's nuclear success.
defence of democracy and human freedom".                           "Do you really think that the technological advances in the
"Just as significant though generally ignored by the Bush          nuclear field only have been reached during the last couple of
administration, was Khatami's opening to the West," Camilleri      years?" he asked.
argues. "He pursued an active diplomacy with western Europe,       Khatami has a point. He deserves credit for Iran's nuclear and
visited the US, strongly condemned terrorism, mended fences        military advance. European officials eagerly answered
with Arab neighbours and seemed prepared to curb Iran's            Khatami's call for dialogue. While Germany said discussions
uranium enrichment program."                                       would tackle difficult issues such as human rights and
No doubt Khatami will draw headlines, but the Khatami              proliferation, trade became the basis for engagement, in the
described by Camilleri is a myth, and a dangerous one at that.     belief that integrating Iran into the world economy would
True, when Khatami emerged on the world stage, he was a            moderate the country. Between 2000 and 2005, the European
breath of fresh air. Diplomats applauded when, after his           Union nearly tripled its trade with the Islamic Republic. The
swearing-in on August 4, 1997, he declared: "We are in favour      Khatami administration injected about 70 per cent of the hard
of a dialogue between civilisations and a detente in our           currency windfall into nuclear and military programs.
relations with the outside world." Khatami became the toast of     The idea that Khatami was "prepared to curb uranium
European capitals, with prime ministers tripping over              enrichment" is counterfactual nonsense.
themselves to host him in their capitals.                          It was under Khatami's watch that the Islamic Republic built a
On March 9, 1999, during his first visit to Europe, Khatami told   covert enrichment facility at Natanz, acknowledged by
the Italian parliament: "Tolerance and exchange of views are       Khatami only after satellite photos confirmed its existence.
the fruits of cultural richness, creativity, high-mindedness and   And, while many Bush administration critics embraced a
harmony. One must recognise this opportunity." Back in Iran,       November 2007 National Intelligence Estimate that found the
though, his message was different. He banned Israeli and           Iranian government had ceased work on a nuclear weapons
Jewish non-government organisations from participating in the      program, they ignored the same document's finding that at
Tehran preparatory meeting ahead of the UN Conference              the height of Khatami's dialogue, Iranian scientists laboured
against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related      secretly to build a nuclear warhead.
Intolerance.                                                       Khatami is credited with tolerance, during his tenure as
Then, speaking to Iranian television on October 24, 2000, he       minister of culture and Islamic guidance, but he censored
declared: "If we abide by human laws, we should mobilise the       more than 600 books and banned several dozen publications.
whole Islamic world for a sharp confrontation with the Zionist     Ironically, as president, he banned the memoir of ayatollah
regime. If we abide by the Koran, all of us should mobilise to     Ruhollah Khomeini's deputy, ayatollah Hossein Ali Montazeri,
kill."                                                             because Montazeri described the purge of several thousand
Alas, such incitement was not mere rhetoric, and to suggest,       political prisoners in 1988, a year in which Khatami, as a
as Camilleri does, that Khatami condemns terrorism is at best      member of the ruling council, would have at least
half-true. Khatami may have offered condolences after the          administratively aided the executions. Montazeri remains
September11, 2001, terror attacks in New York and                  under house arrest.
Washington, but the bipartisan 9/11 Commission subsequently        More broadly, recourse to capital punishment - including
found that his government had granted transit across Iran to       against homosexuals and minors - increased under Khatami.
at least eight of the 14 Saudi hijackers who had trained in        While Khatami's admirers outside Iran praise his defence of
Afghanistan's al-Qa'ida camps.                                     human freedom, those in Iran are more cynical. Towards the
Nor is the problem simply passive support for terrorism.           end of Khatami's presidency, a joke circulated in Tehran: On
Soon after US, Australian and European diplomats brokered a        her wedding night, an Iranian woman told her husband that
ceasefire between Israelis and Palestinians in December 2001,      their marriage was actually her second. "Don't worry," she
Iranian officials loaded 50 tonnes of advanced weaponry            assured him. "I'm still a virgin." "How can that be?" her
aboard the Karine-A, a Palestinian freighter.                      husband asked. "Well, my first husband was like Khatami. He
Eight years later, Khatami continues to side with rejectionists.   kept promising to do it, but eight years later he hadn't done
In a speech on December 28 last year, he berated "Arab             anything."
countries (that) signed treaties with Israel".                     Many of Khatami's foreign supporters suggest he was sincere
While proponents of dialogue latch on to Khatami's call, the       in his desire for reform, but Iran's power circles constrained
former president's own aides depict his dialogue as tactical,      him. Iranian civil society is not so sure. On February 27 this
and insincere. Speaking on June14 last year, Abdollah              year, Iranian civil rights activist Emad al-Din Baghi recounted
Ramezanzadeh, Khatami's former spokesman, told a university        how "Khatami forgot all his promises of reforms" on his
audience: "We had one overt policy, which was one of               election. Answering hardline critics in Qom last month,

                                                                                                                                5
Khatami affirmed that his support for the revolution trumped        Khatami that Iranian policy shifted from anti-Zionism to
any other principle. So much for the "defence of democracy".        unabashed anti-Semitism".
It is easy to be fooled by appearances and see Khatami as a         Dialogue is not always a panacea. Not every partner is sincere.
moderate when juxtaposed with firebrand President                   While some are too radical or violent to engage, the more
Ahmadinejad. Alas, the differences are only of style, not           dangerous are those such as Khatami, who have mastered the
substance. Take the Holocaust: Ahmadinejad proudly                  art of public relations. They should be judged on their actions,
questions it; Khatami simply invites Holocaust revisionists         however, rather than their rhetoric. To do otherwise is simply
such as Frederick Toben, a retired German(sic) schoolteacher        to become a useful idiot enabling the furtherance of values
living in Australia, to Tehran to present his ostensible findings   and actions antithetical to liberalism, tolerance and
that the Auschwitz death camp was too small to conduct mass         democracy.
killing of Jews. [FT: Where did I say that? A new version of        Michael Rubin is a resident scholar at the American Enterprise
events fabricated by Rubin.]                                        Institute in Washington, DC. www.michaelrubin.org
As University of Virginia political scientist George Michael
noted in a2007 Middle East Quarterly article, "it was under
                                            ____________________________
                                         Telegraph View – 17 December 2008
                    is the opinion of The Daily Telegraph, The Sunday Telegraph and Telegraph.co.uk.
                                  Dr Fredrick Toben's arrest should alarm us all
The right to voice unpopular, or even untrue and unpleasant,        Cameron doesn‟t win the next election, I‟m off to a saner,
opinions is essential to free speech - and free speech is one of    safer, lest costly part of the world. – Arlene on Oct 05, 2008
the most basic values of any liberal democracy.                     3. When I debate with creationists they are often sincerely
Free speech cannot flourish when the individual may express         deluded. When I debate with old Stalinists they are invariably
only those opinions which the state has decided it will permit.     in serious denial about the economic failings/callous brutality
Once that happens, it evokes George Orwell's nightmare of the       of the Soviet block. What sets holocaust denial apart (even to
Ministry of Truth, in which the state throttles all independent     a gentile like me) is that the advocates actually know that the
thought and destroys free expression completely.                    thing they are denying did really happen. They deserve no
That is why the arrest of Dr Fredrick Toben at Heathrow             sympathy simply because they are conscious liars perpetrating
airport last week is so disturbing. Dr Toben has not committed      a self publicising anti-semitic stunt. If they sought to justify
a crime in this country. His offence is to have published           the holocaust I might not agree with them, but I would take
opinions on his website, which he writes from his home in           their arguments seriously. As it is, they belong with the
Australia, that question whether the Nazi extermination of the      whining teenage boys who insist that the Moon landings were
Jews happened.                                                      'shot in a hangar in Texas'. – Eric Skelton on October 05, 2008
His opinions are wrong and offensive - but error and                4. The point is by trying to sell this baloney as an opinion, a
offensiveness are not grounds for banning an opinion, still less    revision, a new way of looking at etc is actually the
for imprisoning the individual who expresses it. Denying the        deniers/revisionists aim. It gives a pseudo intellectual
Holocaust is not a crime in Britain but it is illegal in Germany.   "acceptance" that there is another "opinion". Even trying to
The German authorities want to punish Dr Toben for his views        call themselves revisionists is to legitimise the problem. They
- and they have asked the courts here to help them. They            are not revising history, but they are rewriting it. If something
want Britain to extradite Dr Toben so he can be tried and           happened then it is NOT opinion that it happened. It is opinion
sentenced for his "thought crimes".                                 as to WHY it happened. I would have no problems with deniers
The British legal system should have no part in this process. It    trying to sell their opinions as to WHY the holocaust happened
is a blatant attack on free speech. The Government wrongly          (no matter how ridiculous and/or hateful) and would defend
signed up to the European Arrest Warrant, and to the                their right to free speech, but I cannot defend somebody who
accelerated procedures for extraditing people arrested in           tries to rewrite/retell/fictionalise history for their own ends.
Britain to other EU countries.                                      For me allowing this is actually much more 1984 than what
Dr Toben's case is precisely the sort of incident which             has actually happened. Was it not Winston Smith who rewrote
ministers assured us would never happen. They said the              newspapers to make the past more palatable? To make a lie
warrant was only for terrorists and drug dealers. Now that it is    the truth. This was actually the central premise of 1984.. He
being used to punish opinions, our government and judges            who controls the past, controls the future. So if we allow
have an obligation to throw it out.                                 people to rewrite history, we are to blame. – Leigh Halford
For once, the Liberal Democrats are right: freedom of speech        on October 05, 2008
is too important a value to sacrifice to the cause of promoting     5. This is not about whether the Holocaust happened or not.
"ever closer union" with other members of the EU.                   Stalin killed ten times more than Hitler and Mao thrice times
                                                                    that. Who is going to imprison anyone whao disagrees with
                         Comments: 94                               that? This is about the right in Britain to say what you believe.
1. Was it the same freedom of speech that brought the Nazi          Germany has its own problems. They do not apply in the rest
party to power with their anti Jewish thoughts? When                of the world. This is a very dangerous precedent and a
considering the law this has nothing to do with justice for it      powerful argument for getting out of Europe. It starts with an
was on a natural justice ideology that the trials were held at      argument about what the Nazis did: it ends with jailing people
Nuremburg. – Celtic Warrior on October 05, 2008                     for daring to say what they believe - right or wrong. Oh
2. In days gone by, it used to be said that ignorance of the        Liberty! Oh Free speech . . . – Expat 44 on October 05, 2008
law is no excuse. That was in the days when laws made sense,        6. The moon is made of green cheese! Go on, prove me
weren‟t changed every five minutes and weren‟t being churned        wrong. – Ian on October 05, 2008
out at the rate of 3,000 per year. Now, we are expected to          7. Britain may not have specific holocaust denial laws, but it
know the law of all other countries and to abide by them,           does have laws prohibiting incitement to racial hatred.
whether or not we agree with them. Worse than that, we can          Holocaust denial is implicit incitement to racial hatred. Toben
be detained for 42 days without charge, without knowing what        should be prosecuted in this country for breach of UK law,
„crime‟ we have committed and can be convicted without              having made his website available for international perusal. –
knowing who the accuser is or without even being present at         John on October 05, 2008
the „trial‟. This country and the EU is becoming a totalitarian     8. Glad to see mehmet ali 5 oct 2-31pm neatly sums up the
nightmare. I have absolutely no confidence in this rotten           muslim position; you can use free speech to deny the
government to “do the right thing” in any matter it touches. If     holocaust but dont dare use free speech to attack islam. the
                                                                    hypocrisy of these people is overwhelming. and yes holocaust


                                                                                                                                   6
denial is so vile a crime and an extension of anti semitism it     11. I am under the impression that this government has for a
rightly is recognised as a crime!!! – steve salford on October     number of years actively sought by stealth to force the UK
05, 2008                                                           albeit in regions to fall into the EU embrace. What next
9. He has the right to free speech just as I have the right to     abdicate? This a really good example of that abdication. I think
be offended by his opinion. I thought thats what being English     the Scottissh political mafia wish to disembody the UK and
was all about. But now we don't have free speech not even in       England, leaving Scotland alone as a complete state amongst
the Stalinist free speech zones! Orwell was to early. – Kde on     the fragments of our United kingdom. – Nicholas Redding
October 05, 2008                                                   on October 05, 2008
10. Frederick Toben's case, as Telegraph View presented it         11. Zen I am really at a loss to essay a reply to your dense,
here, is interesting and thought-provoking. I have studied the     confusing rant; except to state that it is wobbly sledgehammer
View's    explanations,    along     with  Joshua    Rosenberg's   being used to miss a nut. You are missing a vital point, in that
embedded, side-bar article--both of which elaborated how EU        such completely subjective and utterly undefinable emotions
extradition laws apparently counter-balanced by British laws,      as " hate" should have no place in law. Especially when the
might play on this case. I'll defer to the more knowledgeable,     hate at issue is defined by the victim! What lunacy! Not much
competent authorities on this point; and pursue other legal        of your long, dense post, flitting from hither to yon as it does,
arguments and principles of jurisprudence, from a different        has very much relevance to the basic issues. We are, after all,
perspective. But, even before I go further, based on               fully aware of Britain's ( not very sustained ) anti-Semitism.
preponderance of legal provisions on British Law invoked by        And incidentally, it was not the Jews who drove the BUF thugs
the View and Rosenberg, there are no compelling grounds to         from Cable Street, but the Communists. I know that, because
extradite; solely on the grounds of injuries suffered, alleged-    although I was too young to be aware of what was going on,
offense location and legal standing of plaintiff. Facts to         my brothers and sisters certainly. Just in case you imagine
consider: 1. Plaintiff (Germany) and defendant (Toben) are not     that I am one of these anti-Semites with which you imagine
strangers. 2. They have already engaged in what I consider         Britain to be so infested, let me point out that I have had forty
Round One of a related case that borders on restricted             short stories, articles, series and pomes condemning it and all
freedom of speech for which he served jail term in Mannheim,       other forms of racial violence. Two of which you can read on
Germany. 3. Toben recognized this limitation and sought            my blog. http://my.telegraph.co.uk/ariel - ariel on October
freedom abroad for what he believed in--Holocaust Denialism-       05, 2008
- which plaintiff disavowed, along with many people and            13. I agree that Toben's views are disgusting, and fly in the
nations around the world. 4. So, Toben sought refuge abroad        face of know historical fact. However: Leigh Halford wrote:
and finally settled in Australia. Other facts: Offense plainiff    "Free speech is not about the right to lie. The holocaust
charged defendant with is similar to one he won in Australia.      happened. It is NOT opinion whether it happened." Unless libel
Which begs the question? Why would plaintiff try defendant         or slander against a living person has occurred, people should
with an offense a court in his adopted nation (Australia--a        be free to assert anything they wish. Otherwise, most
western democracy ) didn't criminalize--parallel to precedents     politicians, many newspaper editors and not a few religious
and legal doctrinee in Great Britain? A speech that does not       clerics would now be in jail. Speaking of the latter, there are
advocate sedition, murder, incite violence or framed or used in    plenty of prominent Muslims who preach holocaust denial,
such a way that it endangered life, is hardly a chargeable         including the president of a certain large country in the Mid-
offense. Obnoxious? Yes. Unlawful? No. All by the standards of     East. Will the brave EU also be arresting these people,
Western democracy. Even, US and UK that have endured and           whether local residents or visiting from abroad? Or, like most
listened to hate speeches, still adhere to freedom of              petty officials granted far too much power, will they cravenly
expression. What's outlawed is the inherent extremism that,        and despicably only go after relatively harmless people, like
also, comes with threats and acts that endanger or have            Australian doctors on holiday? – Michael Vitsek on October 05,
claimed innocent lives. Dr. Toben's acts and utterances            2008
amount to historical revisionism. In the marketplace of ideas,     14. If I recall correctly the European Arrest Warrant was not
it's fought with debates and refutation and academic rebuttals.    even discussed in parliament. Blair signed it on his own accord
Holocaust denialists would have a hard time proving their          and came back from the summit saying words to the effect it
claims, because the events didn't take place in the Middle Ages    was a "done deal - end of story". So much for democracy in
or pre-photographic era. Motion-picture archives documenting       the UK today.. – James Eaton on October 05, 2008
atrocious, Nazist anti-Semitism discredit Holocaust denialism.     15. I support laws against Holocaust denial for the following
Dr. Toben is just an irritant Holocaust denialist that might       reasons. The first is that HD is designed to Make Nazism, an
embarrass the German government with a discreditable,              inherently criminal movement, a respectable political option
painful legacy it wants buried and forgotten. But, pursuing this   once again. The second is that, in order to deny the Holocaust,
case, it unwittingly ventilates it in the media. Arguably, Toben   you have to believe that the Jews made it all up in order to
is no ordinary Holocaust denialist. he attended the 2006           screw the poor hapless goyim for every penny they could: that
International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the        they conspiratorial enemies of humanity who fabricated
Holocaust in Iran, and was well received in Iran by the likes of   evidence, produced fake victims to give false testimony, and
President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Another fact to consider is         procured the judicial execution of the leaders of Nazi Germany
that the inventor of the Internet dit not copyright it. It seems   whom they knew were innocent men. – Michael Petek on
he had vision to forestall the kind of egregious, authoritarian    October 05, 2008
censorship Germany tries to execute here; hiding under EU          16. "Everyone here has put their arguments well and I can
extradition laws. Dr. Toben did not send his ideas through TV,     only add one thing to the discussion. This, my Brit friends, is
radio, newspapers and other traditional vehicles of                what happens when those in power decide your national
copyrightable and copyrighted information that are subjected       sovereignty is expendable in the name of unity with the EU."
to broadcast-license regulations if they violate a nation's        (jayd,Oct.5,2:40pm) I take it, Jay D, that you are American? If
"Indency" laws that grant the license. What Dr. Tobe has is a      so, I think we can draw inspiration from your own nation's
personal web site from which he spews his venoms of                fight for liberty and justice. To paraphrase your call to arms in
Holocaust denialism. Only those who are susceptible to his         1776:- "No legislation without representation!" Has a nice ring
ideas or those who erroneously follow him, use his web site.       to it, don't you think? By the way, if you're a praying man, you
Before this story came up I never heard of Dr. Toben. But,         might like to put in a word for us; right now, we need all the
thanks to Germany. Any lesson from this? Let sleeping dogs         help we can get. – Jack Enright, Buxton, Derbyshire, England
lie. Germany, an EU nation, has greater threats now from           on October 05, 2008
aggression in Georgia, trans-Mediterranean violent-religionism     17. " This article is actually playing into his hands. What he is
and domestic forces of militant xenophobism. Igonikon Jack,        stating is not an opinion. It is a lie. Free speech is not about
USA on October 05, 2008                                            the right to lie. The holocaust happened. It is NOT opinion
                                                                   whether it happened." - Leigh Halford on October 5, 2008


                                                                                                                                  7
18. Oh, really? I see ; so we are to have laws that state that     British court could decide that the EU "fast track" extradition
only through truth must be told, are we? And who, pray is to       procedure is inapplicable, and refuse to execute the EU Arrest
establish what the "truth" is? Some form of commission? Some       Warrant. Later, the lawyers at the EU's Court of Justice might
body to which every statement must be submitted for                agree with that decision by the British court, or they might
verification of its truthfulness? The EU perhaps? Yes, this is     over-rule it. But that isn't the point - the point is that
exactly what they are well on the way to attaining, and you        Parliament should never have agreed to this system, not for
are being a "useful idiot" in propagating (albeit unwittingly )    any cases. . - Denis Cooper on October 05, 2008
their iniquitous cause. – ariel on October 05, 2008                27. If this guy wants to think that the Holocaust never
19. I have just had a look at his web site, and he seems to        happened, so be it. What the hell has it got to do with
support the terrorists operating in Iraq now. Apparently his       anybody other than himself. It is rather refreshing to debate
supporting murder in Iraq now is much less important to the        the unthinkable than locking these thoughts away and causing
British government than his disputing the exact number of          them to fester, which they will if not aired. Leave the man to
Jews murdered decades ago. By the way, I think that the            his own form of History, after all NuLabour has tried to change
worst holocaust deniers are the Jews who deny that anybody         the British History every year its been in power. - Sid Jacques
else died in the holocaust. However, I have never heard of any     on October 05, 2008
of them being prosecuted. Bill Phillips on October 05, 2008        28. Will Savun - the Black Policemen's Association is clearly
20. We are a free people, we are not Nazi's, commie's, or any      racist. Would you expect anybody who supports it to be
other sort of despots. Why for the sake of closer ties to the      arrested? - Gerry on October 05, 2008
EU, has this marxist government signed away our right to           29. Didn't Germany try to impose its laws on this country once
exist as Britians. - Robert Boyd on October 05, 2008               before, and isn't that why they need laws about holocaust
21. What alarms me is how online papers moderate                   denial and we don't? To try to overrule British law, particularly
comments. - Cromwell on October 05, 2008                           on an issue like this, seems a bit insensitive. - Pete on
22. For those of you who've only just realised it: welcome to      October 05, 2008
the Popular and Totalitarian State of the EU. This is not any      30. The writer is confused. If he argues that Toben did not
fault of the ex-Nazi republic of Germany as it's clear that it's   break a UK law and hence should not be arrested, he has a
now only moderately fascist; which will improve all our lives      point. The right to free speech argument confuses the issue.
when it can act on the full extent of the EAW. Tyranny starts      There is no right to free speech if your comments are racist or
today - and tomorrow we will lose the permission to post           terrorist related for instance. - Will Savun on October 05,
comments like this if the PTEU "nation" has its way. Seriously,    2008
we should start again with the Bill of Rights of 1688 - a law      31. Whilst Tobin's views are morally reprehensible, use of this
which those poor, backward, benighted countries of                 EU warrant is in itself ethically wrong-footed. It allows for
continental Europe could not have imagined even a hundred          anyone from anywhere else in the world to be arrested
and fifty years later. - Mike Spilligan on October 05, 2008        anywhere in the E.U. for an alleged crime which may only be
23. Posted by Will Savun on October 5, 2008 2:44 PM "There         an offence in one E.U. state. Someone who has a letter
is no right to free speech if your comments are racist or          published in a paper criticising a politician in another country
terrorist related for instance." Since when? I realize this        may be extradited without any investigation on the say so of
government becomes more paranoid and totalitarian by the           that countries police, and our authorities must comply! Repeal
day but I didn't know that it had taken leave of its senses and    this nonsense at once, or do we have to wait until a visiting
legislated that comments relating to racism or terrorism are       American politician is accused of a crime and their extradition
illegal. Perhaps you would give a few more details. - Steve on     requested. Bush would certainly invade the UK to impose
October 05, 2008                                                   democracy and free the politician. - Rob on October 05, 2008
24. Tobens views are mighty strange, that‟s for sure. He has       32. Everyone here has put their arguments well and I can only
committed no crime in this country. Why is he being held on a      add one thing to the discussion. This, my Brit friends, is what
German Law by British Police? This, I'm afraid, is very            happens when those in power decide your national sovereignty
dangerous. Perhaps, an insight into the totalitarian regime        is expendable in the name of unity with the eu. - Jayd on
that the EU is becoming. Or, is that "Become" ? - N Wilson on      October 05, 2008
October 05, 2008                                                   33. This article is actually playing into his hands. What he is
25. A number of new laws which restrict civil liberties have       stating is not an opinion. It is a lie. Free speech is not about
been justified by the need to counter terrorism - and always       the right to lie. The holocaust happened. It is NOT opinion
with political assurances that they will not be abused. The        whether it happened. - Leigh Halford on October 05, 2008
problem is that, once the law is in place, the politicians who     34. Ooops! That should have been 'arrogation' of course, not
introduced it no longer determine how it is applied. - Bill        its opposite 'abrogation' Nobody's perfect, are they. 'cept el
Young on October 05, 2008                                          Gordo of course. - Ariel on October 05, 2008
26. When the British Parliament passed the Extradition Act         35. I support this man right to free speech. he should not be
2003:http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2003/ukpga_20030041           stopped. it is not the same to insult the prophet(pbuh). he is
_en_1 it approved "fast track" extradition both to other EU        holy meesenger from god. so dont start saying muslim againts
countries through the EU Arrest Warrant, and to the USA.           freed speech-that is not true this man must not go to gremany
Some people had been trying to warn the public about the           or eu will get you all - mehmet ali on October 05, 2008
former for several years before then, but nobody listened. The     36. Wake up, sheeple! Remember Pastor Martin Niemöller?
media weren't interested, and the politicians didn't want to       First they came for the Communists ... - Marcher Baron on
talk about it. That included the Tories - they should have been    October 05, 2008
screaming blue murder, but they weren't. But I don't think         37. Incidentally, just last week a British man was deported to
many people expected the latter. It was a surprise when            Greece under a EAW to face criminal charges of ( I think, a
Blunkett came back from the US having agreed a new                 sexual nature. ) But there, he was an ordinary sort of guy --
extradition treaty, under which the US authorities could           just like you and me in fact ( sorry gals ) so nobody noticed.
demand the surrender of British citizens without any need to       Just like nobody will notice if and when they come for you and
present prima facie evidence of wrong-doing in a British court     me. Boy, Niemohler's bones must be whizzing in their grave -
- even though the US still won't allow its own citizens to be      Ariel on October 05, 2008
extradited in that way. Well, that got some Tories going -         38. I just can't wait to see what happens when some
especially Boris Johnson, who found that one of his Henley         wealthy/powerful American, Russian, Chinese or Indian person
constituents was about to be hauled off to the US. But even        falls foul of this Nazi type law. As Simon Coulter rightly points
then, he took the greatest care never to talk about the EU         out this is an outrageous, indefensible and wholly
Arrest Warrant. A typical two-faced, deceitful, treacherous        unprecedented abrogation of power. For henceforth law as
Tory. The even more two-faced, deceitful, treacherous Liberal      made within the EU are enforceable on the entire world
Democrat Huhne may be right that in this particular case a         population. My, Hitler would have been so pleased to see his


                                                                                                                                  8
country carrying on his traditions; and dragging all the other        baby clothes or human hair can clearly see that a genocide has
poodle EU governments along with him. On a side issue, I can          occured. The fact is that just because an opinion is doubtful
see it doing wonders for the European tourism industry. – ariel       and hurtful should not mean it is criminalised. Why is
on October 05, 2008                                                   legislation required to prevent an opinion? It is my opinion
39. I oppose this case being used to argue for 'free speech'.         that Germany and Austria have legislation because of a sense
Tobin associates with vile others. Look at his web sites. This is     of collective guilt. After visiting Sachsenhausen Camp many
not a worthy case for considering legal principles. Tobin knows       Germans (mainly young)which I spoke to appologised for what
what he is doing. Let the Germans deal with him. - Bob on             had happened in the camps. People should not have to feel
October 05, 2008                                                      guilty for the actions of their parents/grandparents, but it did
40. Yet another - deeper - reason to avoid Heathrow... -              show the strength of feeling in the country. That said I believe
Samuel Tighe on October 05, 2008                                      imprisoning people for their views wont change their opinions
41. With due respect to the majority of right thinking                or the opinions of the majority of people who reject Toben's
Islamists, isn't this a similar example to that which we saw          views. Better to leave him as an object of ridicule rather than
with Rushdie and the Danish Mohammed cartoons? Maybe                  make his non-issues appear mainstream. - darren jones on
arrest etc. is not so extreme as a fatweahm but it is a               October 05, 2008
restriction on freedom of speech and the fear is that it won't        49. I was taught that the holocaust happened. It is a piece in
stop here. We are now all at risk if we express an opinion that       the history of humankind, albeit a particularly nasty piece.
disagrees with the German government. Scary. - Peter Mallett          When I first heard that there were those who denied it ever
on October 05, 2008                                                   took place, I assumed it was a simple lie by modern-day Nazis
42. Has everyone forgotten that part of the eu 'treaty' that          to make their world-view seem more palatable to others. Yet
brown signed is to bring back the death penalty, not for              when I heard that such a claim was actually illegal in Germany
terrorism but for 'civil unrest' in other words it's in our future    my very first thought was, “Really? What are they trying to
not to be allowed to say what we think or believe, this is just       hide?” Actually I don‟t believe they‟re trying to hide anything,
the start of what's to come.. - Barb Miller on October 05,            and that‟s down to my faith in my education. But right now
2008                                                                  that faith is being challenged and sadly the argument being
43. The holocaust was a terrible crime, but so was the murder         offered against that challenge is, “Shut up!” That‟s not good
of millions of their own citizens by the Soviet and Chinese           enough. Let‟s have a fair fight and watch Dr. Toben go down in
communist regimes and nobody argues that apologists for or            the first round. - Martin on October 05, 2008
deniers of these atrocities should be jailed or their books           50. Those who dictate what you may say and write also
banned. You don't ban books and imprison authors in a free            dictate what you may hear and read. - OurUnionJacked on
society: that's what Nazis, Communists and Muslim                     October 05, 2008
fundamentalists do in theirs. - Geoffrey Warner on October            51. Jonathan Hoffman on October 5, 2008 8:02 AM You
05, 2008                                                              willfully mislead as another of the "it's nothing to do with
44. Why is it that none of the politicians were concerned when        Europe" brigade (which, incidentally, appears to apply to
I, an innocent woman was extradited using the US/UK                   pretty much anything). While "Holocaust denial" is indeed not
extradition treaty designed to expedite the extradition of terror     on the "core" list (ostensibly because the legislation was knee-
suspects? and signed by Blunkett in 2003,without debate in            jerk and rushed) and Germany is citing its OWN Holocaust
Parliament? Seems strange, I was, of-course, acquitted but            denial laws, the EU DOES indeed provide for the extradition of
the effects are long from over. One finds this very strange.? -       Toben under the core items "racism" and "xenophobia" It IS
Audrey Phillips on October 05, 2008                                   the fault of the EU - and that's quite apart from
45. Being a Gay man living in the UK (British Citizen), if this       Euroscepticism. - Ross on October 05, 2008
case were to go ahead in Germany's favour, does this mean             52. To deny the holocaust did not happen under Nazi
that a country such as Iran (where being Gay is punishable by         Germany is utter stupidity and my own grandfather and other
death) could technically ask for my arrest and be sent their for      members of his generation helped to liberate Belson and other
trial for breaking their laws - in the UK!? This case stinks and      such holes of hell in which horrific mass crimes were
should be thrown out or it will open the flood gates to any           conducted on humanity and the world should never forget this
country that wants to terrorise or oppress sections of society        or call that genration liars. To arrest this pathetic man only
in the UK it doesn't like. - Robert McBride on October 05             gives him the publicity he craves with which to continue to
46. Zen 07.11: '' The words „never forget‟ and „never again‟          peddle his lies. - Darren on October 05, 2008
have not had so much salience since the „Shoah‟ ''. Since 'The'       53. There seem to have been a number of views expressed for
holocaust holocausts have happened again and again and                and against Dr Toben - with a few "anti" Toben comments
again. 1. Stalin's 30+million post-1945 victims. 2. Cambodea.         seeming to support the arrest, detention and possible
A survey by the People's Republic of Kampuchea of deaths              extradition, based on the need to punish or "correct" his
caused by Pol Pot's regime arrived at a total 3.3 million. About      views, erroneous as they may be. May I suggest to all the
one third being by execution and the remainder due to                 posters on this site - especially those few who would wish the
starvation and disease in labour camps. 3. Rwanda and                 warrant to be upheld and a trial in the German court, that they
Burundi, 1994, at least 1.2 million. In Rwanda, in a panga and        consider the future carefully. If today it is Germany demading
machine gun orgy, over 100,000 people were killed every               the arrest of an Australian citizen who just happened to stray
week during an 8 week period. - Pascal on October 05, 2008            into EU jurisdiction, for his views on the holocaust, what will it
47. Is it not a reasonable question to ask where Amnesty              be tomorrow? How long before YOUR views are proscribed by
International is in all of this? It doesn‟t take any moral courage    some part of the EU and YOU get hauled off - or worse, found
to argue against the death penalty or unjust imprisonment in          guilty in absentia and just get dragged off to prison because of
third-world dungeons. It does require something stronger to           YOUR honestly held beliefs and views. It is so very easy to
stick to first principles avoiding easy liberal shibboleths and       defend freedom of speech when the other person agrees with
argue against any imprisonment for voicing unfavourable               your way of thinking - the challenge to us ALL is to defend the
arguments wherever they are voiced. Think of that next time           right of people to say and even write things which we do not
you are accosted on the street by an Amnesty worker waving            agree with and may even find distasteful. - Oswestrian on
a clipboard or leaflets through the door. - BGD on October 05         October 05, 2008
48. I agree that Toben's views are distasteful, but to try to         54. So going on the basis that this man is being arrested for a
control a person's opinion on historical events, or to prevent        crime not illegal here but it is in Germany should we not all be
others from hearing them seems like something the nazi's              arrested or fined for driving on the other side of the road from
would have done. Exact numbers of Jewish deaths in the                them. This is arrest is scary and does not bode well for future
haulocaust are not known hence the differences in numbers             freedom of any of us. - dave burns on October 05, 2008
reported.      However         anyone       who     has     visited   55. It is arguable that Germany needed such a law after 1945.
concentration/extermination camps and have seen the piles of          Peoples who suffered Nazi rule had a war far worse than we


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did, and we should not glibly dismiss their feelings with liberal   66. Toben's views are best handled by open refutation. This is
platitudes. But surely it is now time they repealed that law. -     giving him far too much credit. But speak out against his
Michael Gorman on October 05, 2008                                  factual inaccuracies - it is imperative. And the more ridiculous
56. The facts of history are not subject to Jewrisprudence.         he looks the better. - NR on October 05, 2008
'Holocaust' propagandists have every reason to resist mpartial      67. Toben's views are not 'offensive' or 'unpleasant', they are
exposure of their alleged 'evidence'. Iwas personally               factually and demonstrably wrong and are an indication of a
acquainted with several 'death camp' inmates in 1946, and thir      racist and antisemitic mentality. Anyone who talks of these
accounts rubbish the Sollywood version . popular noey didn't -      views as having a grain or truth, or suggests that a Holocaust
F Kimbal Johnson on October 05, 2008                                denier is somehow brave or intellectually anything other than
57. So, if I have an illegal pint of beer in Saudi Arabia then      an idiot, is on the same level of mental pygmyism as Toben.
return to the UK does that mean they will deport me to Iran         The simple fact is that the deniers' so-called evidence against
because it is also illegal there and they want to prosecute me?     gas chambers has been disproved by careful, validatable
What half baked holes this government digs for itself. –            scientific evidence. There is no debate of opinions here, unless
Carbine on October 05, 2008                                         you consider there is a real debate between those that believe
58. So now we arrest people for voicing an opinion which as         the world is flat and the rest of us. People like Toben pretend
we all know is total twaddle but he as every right to say it.       that there is a valid debate, when all they are doing is
There are no legal grounds in this country to extradite him to      expressing their antisemitism in public. I am shocked to hear
Germany strange how the eu laws think this is ok yet the            that there is someone claiming to be a history teacher that
murderer of a school headmaster can not be deported under           believes Toben is right; surely this is worse than whether
eu law as it might infringe his human rights. - brian rice on       Creationism has a place in schools? - Iain on October 05
October 05, 2008                                                    68. Let us put to one side the views of Fredrick Toben - for
59. I would endorse Tom Welsh's observations (8:48am).              fear they colour our thinking. Toben expressed personal views,
Nazis would be so proud that their country continues to             on a website, in Australia. They are not illegal in any way
practise thought policing, and would also want to imprison          there. Toben visited the United Kingdom. His views are not
Toben for defying the jackboot. He may well be a confused           illegal whether expressed there or in Australia. Someone in
and unpleasant man, but arresting him was a disgrace;               Germany where those views happen to be illegal wants Toben
sending him back would be like returning a Jew to 1939              prosecuted - and thus lawfully expressed views in Australia
Germany. I hope Britain will instead honour those who fought        become an arrestable offence in the United Kingdom where
and died to rid the world of tyranny; or is it not only Germany     they are also lawful. This is madness. Even if you can make
that hasn't quite got the hang of this freedom thing? - James       mere words and ideas unlawful in your own country, you
Lawrence on October 05, 2008                                        cannot demand the arrest of those expressing them in a
60. guesstworker I have met people who had tattoos on their         second country - by the authorities of a third country. If this
arms and others who had lost their families. There is a             does not set alarm bells clanging in the minds of all right
constant push to revise history which will put its lessons out of   thinking people in the free world as to where the EU is taking
reach. It is not offensive to deny the Holocaust it is insane.      Member states - and the irony of this totalitarian stance
There are facts that people still remember. The only way to         emanating from Germany is not lost - then we really are
hang onto reason is to be able to debate everything. The only       doomed to the federal superstate. As I stressed, Dr Toben's
thing that must not be allowed is incitement to violence.           views may be personally distasteful to many of us - but
Confine deniers of fact to the same cheap publicatons that          projecting the proscribing of expressed thoughts and ideas
adore conspiracy theories. -Pip on October 05, 2008                 from beyond the legislative remit of a given nation to others
61. It's all very well the Lib Dems saying this now. A more         allegedly loosely grouped with it and beyond to territories
interesting question is why did they vote for it in the European    completely outside its sphere of power is an absolutely
Parliament in the first place? And yes Chris Huhne did indeed       heinous abuse of power. – simon coulter on October 05, 2008
vote for the European Arrest Warrant when he was an MEP.            69. Regardless of the EU and indeed the sensitivities of this
UKIP voted against it of course, for we could see this coming a     group or that, the truth is that whether "Holocast Denial" or
mile off....extradition for something which is not a crime in the   mentioning "The Prophet", common-sense and justice went
UK. – Tim Worstall on October 05, 2008                              out of the window a long time ago. As a white Christian, even
62. Too late people, it is already a crime to utter words which     worse to many, a Roman Catholic, I have had to in the past
others may consider as "hate" whilst others may see as the          and will continue in the future to suffer all kinds of 'abuse' for
defence of a way of life. Get used to being told what is right      which there will be no redress and I do not seek it, ignorance
and wrong and just follow what our glorious leader tells you to     is just that. This man is a idiot to be a Holocaust Denier but
do, its in your best interests honestly. There is no free speech    that is not a crime nor should it be treated as one - end of
anymore thanks to Blair. - TokyoDave on October 05, 2008            story. We need to repatriate our Law from the European
63. One has the right to free speech.the fault lies in the idiots   Courts so that a British Judge can decide this matter, if we
who print it. There are always certain boundaries any               were stupid enough to arrest the man in the first place and the
educated society would not permit. In my opinion the                EU can go sling its hook. – John Haynes on October 05, 2008
holocaust is one. The magnitude and atrocities are                  70. I have read that down the years since their introduction,
unimaginable in any sane and rational human beings, but             some 18,000 German citizens have been imprisoned under
unfortunately humans can lower themselves to acts which are         Germany's Holocaust denial laws. Holocaust revisionism, to
the vilest and most abhorant charateristic of human                 give it its proper name, questions three religious tennets of
nature.and people who deny this have lowered themselves to          the modern age:- 1. The Third Reich had no policy of Jewish
the cesspool of human nature. - joseph walker on October 05         extermination, 2. six million Jews did not die, and 3. the gas
64. Posted by Jonathan Hoffman on October 5, 2008 8:02 AM           chambers did not exist. We unwitting consumers of official
Mr Hoffman, You have completely missed the point!! - Minnie         opinions are in no position to judge the verity or otherwise of
Ovens on October 05, 2008                                           these claims. We were not there. We are not historians. We
65. There is a universal rule that all negative influences are      have not seen the evidence, or lack of it. Uey we simply trot
the result of excess. In this country we suffer from an excess      out the same old Pavlovian responses ... Dr Toben's views are
of freedom, leading to its abuse. Dr. Toben's arrest is justified   reprehensible, are wrong, are whatever. Yet we cannot say
because he is aiding and abetting criminal acts. The denial of      why. We cannot disprove Toben, Mark Webber, Robert
the hollocaust is like believing in a flat earth and only a fool    Faurisson, Ernst Zundel, Horst Mahler, Germar Rudolf, and all
could believe it. My own people died in Auschwitz so Dr. Toben      the other obviously extremely brave men who have preferred
must be agreeing with what happened and is trying to deny it.       official persecution to silence. One of the most recent jailings
He should be dealt with appropriately -- just like any terrorist    has been of Defence Counsel Sylvia Stolz, who defended
be he a nazi, a muslim, or a gentile etc. - Erik Rees on October    Zundel. It is illegal in Germany for a Defence Council to argue
05, 2008                                                            Holocaust revision in Court, so there is effectively no defence


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to of the accused to be made. Stolz argued anyway, and was          in Germany. It is also a disguise and an excuse; allowing for
imprisoned for her pains. All these people may be wrong. But        the release of the age-old Judeophile bile contained in Western
they may not be. It behoves us to put away our Pavolovian           Society. Britain had its own fascist movement in the 1920s,
responses to them and, somewhere is our heads, entertain            which was ironically humiliated and curtailed by British Jews in
that small, sacred thing: a scintilla of doubt. – Guessedworker     Cable Street. Britain has also historically mass murdered Jews
on October 05, 2008                                                 and expelled them; a fact now denied: However more than ten
71. I hereby declare that the Nazis did not murder Gypsies,         thousand Jews were killed with swords and burned in the city
the mentally ill nor did they murder British prisoners of war or    of York at one time. The desire to race hate Jews is evidenced
any partizans in any country they occupied during world war         by the need for them to have bomb proof buildings to educate
111. ( The wars of Saint Napoleon being world war 1 ) Stick         their children in Britain, France and Germany; and the current
that in your pipe and smoke it E.U.S.S.R. ! - Whiplash on           Jewish mass-emigration to Israel; (which is threatened with
October 05, 2008                                                    extinction by Iran and others). The entire argument is also an
72. In the Hitler period Germans and Austrians were not             indirect attack against Islamic people and other „unwanted‟
allowed to criticize the Fuehrer and the Nazis. They were also      minorities in Europe. Look at the recent results of elections in
forbidden to challenge any details of the official version of       Austria. If you make the Jews leave, the other minorities will
history. Today, they are not allowed to praise the Nazis; but       be next. Arguments against defenceless Jews inevitably and
they are still forbidden to challenge any details of the official   historically lead to race war between larger groups, which turn
version of history. They haven't quite got the hang of this         into world or global cultural conflicts. Finally think of the Jews.
"freedom" business, have they? - Tom Welsh on October 05,           Most Jews who live in Europe have lost ninety per cent (or
73. I would prefer the Lib Dems to fight against the unequal        more) of their families to mass-murder, in living memory! For
extradition rights with the USA - R,Speight on October 05           non-Jews to determine how hateful Toben is; seems callous in
74. I suspect the Telegraph's eurosceptics are behind this          this light. Ask an Auschwitz survivor who has spent their life
editorial, not its 'free speech' zealots. The reason Chris Huhne    without relations, whether Toben is offensive when he denies
of the LibDems is right has to do with the text of the European     the death of their family. Is this more or less offensive than
Arrest Warrant Directive, which protects national sovereignty       calling an African by the colour of their skin in a derogatory
in precisely the way the eurosceptics would wish http://eur-        manner, or by referring to a supposed „Prophet‟ of another
lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32002F05           person‟s religion in a derogatory manner? To compare denial
84:EN:NOT Specifically Article 2 clause 2 and Article 4 clause      of the Holocaust to denial of the moon Landing or denial of
1. 2/2 sets out the offences for which EAW can be used and          God displays the lack of intellectual reasoning of a misguided
Holocaust Denial isn‟t one of them. That‟s sufficient for the UK    child. You would also look good in a brown-shirt. Ironically you
Judge to refuse Toben‟s extradition. But in addition Article 4, 1   twist the meaning of „free-speech‟ against all those worthy
says that even if Holocaust Denial WAS in the 2/2 list, the UK      human beings who died to give it to you. It is self-evident
cannot issue an EAW if Holocaust Denial is not an offence in        social disintegration. The words „never forget‟ and „never
the UK - which it isn‟t. There is also the issue that Germany       again‟ have not had so much salience since the „Shoah‟.
regards the whole Internet as being within national jurisdiction    Britain‟s decency and sense of fair play is evaporating, as is its
(Toben committed the offence while sitting at a keyboard in         Jewish community. The Jewish community has contributed
Australia, not in Germany). I think that's reasonable but that's    greatly to British culture. Britain now seeks to extinguish it
a controversial view (the alternative is that the Internet is in    and replace it with other cultures bent on changing the very
no-one's jurisdiction and that surely has to be unsatisfactory).    nature of what it is to be British. - Zen on October 05, 2008
- Jonathan Hoffman on October 05, 2008                              78. I'm a history teacher and have been taught by my
75. Rather than comment on this as an attack on freedom of          university faculty to challenge/evaluate people's ideas,
speech, which I think it is. This is yet another example of bad     opinions, bias and disparate points of view. However it takes
legislation emanating from the EU and implemented by a              certain bravery, such as the likes of Irving and Toben, to go
stupid British gov. Remember the employment debacle about           against popular opinion and take on the establishment. There
the London hairdresser and the muslim headscarf, well the           was never a truer statement that 'history is written by the
basis of that claim was based on an EU employment directive         winners'. The World War Two allies remain in power and
put into Law. I am sure readers could come up with many             Germany, who had its wings clipped, remains its willing
other examples. – PeteS on October 05, 2008                         accomplice. In the past Luther and Galileo were punished for
76. Why do we always sign up to all these toxic "bien               'Heresy'. Toben's arrest will serve to do the opposite of what
pensant" European "laws"? Every time we are told that the UK        EU authorities want. Further condemnation and punishment
will be "exempt" or that the law will not play out the way we       will produce martyrs and revisionists will grow stronger and
suspect, I am overcome by dread. We have such STUPID                more popular. It's a David versus Goliath scenario. As for
people in charge of this country! – James Cameron, October          Australia, I can say that most are supportive of the underdog!
05, 2008                                                            Freedom of expression must be guaranteed for all individuals -
77. In the UK and many other developed countries, there are         no matter how unpopular their views. It's heartening to see
Criminal Laws against racism, race-hate and discrimination.         that the human race still produces men of such high calibre.
These laws prevent people „speaking freely‟ with what is            The world was not flat after all. – Barry Wood on October 05,
referred to as „hate‟. For example Islamic people cling to,         2008
demand and develop these laws to build respect amongst non-         79. We really are on the slippery slope now. – Sue on
believers for their Prophet. In light of these Criminal Laws:       October 05, 2008
Arguments aimed at preventing the definition of denial,             80. So far Chris Huhne has just said that this is a "rough
revision or exploitation of the „holocaust‟ against the Jews by     edge" in the EU legislation which needs to be sorted out with
non-Jews as „Criminal Acts of Hate‟, fall into the category of      our "partners". But what will he do if this proves impossible? If
blatant discrimination. The Jews are a global minority of           the Germans, say, prove obdurate and tell us that they can
around ten million. They are faced with an onslaught by the         under no circumstances repeal or modify their restrictive
globally dominant religions of Christianity and Islam; with not     legislation? (For fear perhaps of unleashing suppressed pro-
only attacks on their right of National Self Determination in       Nazi nostalgic sentiment lying dormant amongst more people
one of the smallest countries in the world, but also denial of      than they would like to admit?) Or whatever reason, best
their history; a history, which evidences the attempt of the        known to themselves. The trouble lies with our unthinking and
two larger religion‟s acts of genocide against them. The reason     unresearched adoption of the concept of "mutual recognition"
the Germans employ a criminal law to prevent holocaust              ie the idea that each EU country recognises the value, the
denial is that they recognise the potential for genocidal hatred    fairness and the inherent justice of the systems used by all the
against Jews and the consequences it can have for their             others, whereas in reality the different systems used in Europe
society. It is simply racist to argue that British people are       are often based on wildly different values as this case shows.
immune to the type of racism that led to the NAZI experience        So if Mr Huhne's attempt to re-negotiate the terms of the EAW


                                                                                                                                   11
with our "partners" fails, he and his party will be forced to         intimidation, but also the right of the audience to hear what he
choose between continuing to support our British concepts of          has to say. Because that opinion might just contain within it a
fairness and freedom, or continuing to support our ever-closer        grain of truth. Unless the right of free speech is afforded even
union with the EU most of whom do not share our concepts in           to the unpopular opinion, the notion of free speech itself is
these fields. It will be obvious that the two are incompatible.       meaningless. – Andrew Milner on October 05, 2008
To keep our freedom we will have to regain our national               People who are prosecuted for opinion crime are legible for
independence. To continue to pursue ever-closer union with            asylum in the USA. There, no one bothers to scream NAZI or
Europe we will have to give it up. - Torquil Dick-Erikson on          BLASPHEMY because there's nothing to gain. – Sammie Hall –
October 05, 2008                                                      on October 05, 2008
81. If Dr. Toben denies the Holocaust, he is wrong. But if you        86. What kind of truth needs State enforcement? The
deny him the right to say it, you, sir, are worse than wrong.         Universal Declaration of Human Rights is unambiguous: Article
You are a tyrant. Is Germany (and perhaps Britain) a new              19 Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and
tyranny? –                                                            expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions
82. In a time when I seem to be repeatedly outraged by the            without interference and to seek, receive and impart
machinations of one government or another this is possibly the        information and ideas through any media and regardless of
most frightening thing I have ever read. It is far too important      frontiers. Is Britain still part of the civilized world? – Syd
an issue to be sidelined. It should be on the front page of           Walker on October 05, 2008
every newspaper and newscast. – Peter Findlay on October 05           87. Anyone who is irresponsible as to deny the holocaust is a
83. eu=fascist state - terry sullivan on October 05, 2008             liability, and so may pursue further irresponsible acts, and
84. There are 4 aspects of this to consider. The first, which         should be punished now! – John on October 05, 2008
you raise, is whether or not an intellectual freedom crime in         88. Downunder NZ Isabel(ESP/Telepathy)2008 Well there is
another country should obligate Britain to extradite the              one thing for sure,if he had not been arrested I for one would
offender, especially if he's not a citizen of Britain. Are you next   not have known of Dr. Toben or his unbelievable opinions.
going to extradite critics of the Mugabe regime to its clutches?      Purpose: Even a tree needs a function for a purpose.
However, there is another side of this to consider. I have            From:Treasury of Jewish Quotations. (Leo Rosten) - Isabel
appreciated Telegraph's desire for the truth and wanting to           Witty on October 05, 2008
protect freedom of speech, so that can surface -- especially in       89. Well... How come my mildly leftist views and comments
regard to the case of Dr. David Kelly -- and I am grateful for        about figures associated in the past with the DT get cut from
your defense of free speech to enable such matters to be              here on a regular basis? Anyone would think that the editorial
discussed. However, any freedom can be taken to destructive           team at the DT saw 'freedom' as a flag of convenience rather
extremes if not exercised with some respect and responsibility        than something they are serious about. Surely you are not a
for the truth. You can read my 1994 masters thesis about the          troupe of hypocrites? But then Mr Moderator, you won't cut
Katyn Massacre (1940, when the Soviets -- not the Germans -           this will you given that your employers believe, 'offensiveness
- done it) via my webpage, and an integral part of the crime          are not grounds for banning an opinion.' Best of luck. - Dara
itself was the denial and coverup. That is, the deniers were          on October 05, 2008
fully accessories after the fact to the crime themselves, if they     90. The German and Austrian laws concerning 'Holocaust
knew the truth and deliberately tried to deny and/or                  denial' are disproportionate to the incidence and to the danger
suppress/bury it. To be specific, such a crime's success is           - there were (and are) so few Germans who claim that the
dependent on the perpetrators getting away with it -- avoiding        mass-murder of Jews 'did not happen' and so many
accusation and prosecution -- and deniers are actively helping        exhaustively detailed, well-documented studies in German that
them do so. The proof of the Nazi Holocaust -- half its victims       show precisely how it did happen (something all Germans are
were Jewish, and that's not counting the many more millions           taught in school) that it is and was a waste of German
of Russian/Slavic people exterminated in the East -- is               taxpayers' money and police time to pass such a law. From
overwhelming, and deniers at the time and since are indeed            our own UK point of view, we should point out that Lisbon has
culpable. Third, Soviet war criminals have never been pursued         not been ratified, and refuse to extradite for matters which are
and prosecuted as Nazi war criminals have been, and we                not crimes or even indictable offences in this country. The
might ask ourselves why that is, since many have emigrated            same goes for crimes which are 'out of time' under our
to the West. As well, why have deniers of Communist                   statutes. What is to stop a mischievous prosecuting attorney in
holocausts never been prosecuted? Journalists at the time like        one of the Federal regions from deciding to charge a British
Duranty and Fischer (and some academics since, as well)               subject for some minor offence and demand extradition?
helped the Soviets cover up the Holomodor, the forced                 Please, let's have some commonsense. – Jaytt on October 05
starvation/extermination of 6-7 million Ukrainian men,                91. To have someone arrested for expressing an opinion
women, and children. They were never punished and instead             would be expected from a Nazi State, not from a democratic
even received journalism awards, despite innumerable other            one. As far as there is no incitement to violence, one's opinion
reports of what happened. Fourth, after Iraq, we have some of
                                                                      on whatever issue is his own business and nobody else's. –
our own war criminals ... and deniers ... now, don't we.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I see the historian-provocateur         R. Conceicao on October 05, 2008
David Irving is stirring up Holocaust controversy and outrage         92. This issue needs a lot more exposure. As unpleasant as
again. Why? As a diversion? Is Israel indeed on the verge of          Toben's views are they are not illegal in Britain. If this is
attacking Iran? - Lou Coatney (Katyn Massacre 1940 history            allowed to stand then we have crossed a very dangerous line.
masters thesis) on October 05, 2008                                   The road to totalitarianism starts here. – LT on October 05
85. Were I were to say that the first person to set foot on the       93. The biggest threat to our freedom and security is not from
Moon has not yet been born; slammer time would not beckon.            so-called terrorism but the threat from our own Government!
Just potential humiliation and a “crank” reputation. There were       The enemy within! I've been saying this for years and now
several other holocausts (Stalin in USSR, Pol Pot in Cambodia)        people have suddenly woken up to this fact. The Government
in the 20th Century, but it‟s the Authorized Version of Jewish        have discovered we do not believe their propaganda. My
Holocaust that is so written in stone. Keep in mind that it is        advise to others - Read George Orwell's book '1984' and then
the poison gas chamber aspect that so separates the Jewish            stand up for your rights while you still have them!! - Dave on
Holocaust from all other genocide attempts. Perhaps this is           October 05, 2008
why Irving and Toben are so persecuted. No other historical           94. Although Toben's views are reprehensible he should have
event is protected by such thought crime laws. The truth              the right to state them. Censorship begins in small ways;
doesn't need laws to protect it. Lies however ... It is important     political correctness is merely Stalinism of the mind. – Ian
to realise that special protection should be afforded to that         Burgess on October 05, 2008
single opinion that goes contrary to the majority. Not just the       www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/telegraph- view/3562585/Dr-
right of the minority opinion holder to speak without                 Fredrick-Tobens-arrest-should-alarm-us-all.html


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