Quotes from various Adverse Reaction Forums regarding vision damage:
I took cipro september 2001. Immediately I saw black spots passing constantly in front of my range of
vision. At first I though they were bugs flying about, but only I could see them. In addition to the black
floating about, I have had flashing lights at the outside range of vision for a year and a half.
I want to know if someone who took cipro or an other quinolone had floaters in the eyes after it and is
floaters desappear gradually, because i have it for 3 month now and it seem to be less dark and bigger. I
dont thing that is related with the age because im only 25 yrs! I saw an ophtalmologist an he said that my
vision is good and i
only have some floaters in the vitreous. Is floaters can be related with some deposits in the vitreous of the
eyes because i see this in the RX information of Ciprofloxaxin (After oral administration ciprofloxacin is
widely distributed throughout the body. Tissue concentrations often exceed serum concentrations in both
women, particularly in genital tissue including the prostate. Ciprofloxacin is present in active form in the
saliva, nasal and bronchial secretions, sputum, skin blister fluid, lymph, peritoneal fluid, bile and prostatic
secretions. Ciprofloxacin has also been detected in lung, skin, fat, muscle, cartilage, and bone. The drug
diffuses into the cerebrospinal fluid (CSF); however, CSF concentrations are generally less than 10% of
peak serum concentrations. Low levels of the drug have been detected in the aqueous and vitreous humors
of the eye.). Is floaters can be seen if you have an irritation of the retina or something like that? If this
floaters caused by deposits of cipro, is this reversible? I want to know if someone had is floaters
desappeared with time to give us some
I think your opthalmologist has misdiagnosed your condition. Many on this formum have complained of
vision problems including the appearance of what seems like floaters in their field of vision.
I just finished seven days of Tequin, prescribed for pneumonia. When I took the first pill I did not shut my
eyes for almost 2 days. My lips were tingling and my heart was racing. I thought all this was due to
breathing treatments, steroid shot, and steroid pills. I never imagined that the "antibotic" was the problem. I
continued to have these problems and then some blurred vision, ringing in ears and pain between my
Those who continue to have vision problems and their doctors continue to claim "It cannot be the drug"
may find the following to be of interest:
"A small number of patients receiving fluoroquinolones developed visual disturbances including color
distortion and diplopia (Ball, 1989). "
"From the Levaquin monograph:
In clinical trials using multiple-dose therapy, ophthalmologic abnormalities, including cataracts and
multiple punctate lenticular opacities, have been noted in patients undergoing treatment with other
"From the Cipro monograph:
May cause ophthalmologic abnormalities, Retinal degeneration "
"From the RAXARâ„¢ Glaxo Wellcome Grepafloxacin HCl Antibacterial momograph:
Special Senses: amblyopia, conjunctivitis, deafness, dry eyes, ear disorder,
eye pain, lacrimation disorder, parosmia, photophobia, taste loss, tinnitus. "
From the Floxacin Monograph:
The following adverse reactions have been reported in association with use of ofloxacin.
itching, foreign body sensation, photophobia, blurred vision, hyperaemia, chemical conjunctivitis/keratitis,
periocular/facial oedema, dry eyes, eye pain (1-5% of treated eyes) and dizziness. These symptoms led to
cessation of treatment in 1.6% of patients. "
This past July, I was given Levaquin once again. The first day taking it, I felt so weak and dizzy, that I
could barely walk. I then had burning,pins and needles in my feet and hands which was worse than
anything I had before. i was itchy, so I called my doc and asked if I should discontinue the levaquin. Nurse
said "NO"> I asked her to check with him again, and she said he felt I should keep taking it or else the
infection that they were checking me for
could worsen and the results could be "detrimental".
I continued to take the med, and by day 5 I couldn't walk or hold a glass of water by myself. I had pain and
burning in every muscle of my body. It even hurt to move my eyes around the room.
My left eye felt like it was moving and jerking, but not insync with the right eye.By now, I convinced
myself I had MS or a brain tumor.On Day 4, the Gastroenterologist took me off the Cipro and gave me
Colestid for the diarrhea.
By the 5th day, I thought I was going to die. Started having sunburn sensation on legs, arms and back. Got
a red, measle-like rash that burned and itched??? (Cold compresses seemed to help and made the redness
subside some.) Since it was the week-end, I got the on-call doctor who said it was good I stopped the
Cipro and prescribed Valtrex for the rash (thinking it was shingles). She said that the muscle and eye
problems could be due to dehydration (since I wasn't really eating or drinking much.)
I like you had an ADR from taking Levaquin for a sinus infection. I too had a lot of the same symptoms
that you described. My left eye pupil was always more dilated then the right and it felt like my eyes were
reacting in slow motion at times. Symptom after symptom would changed and shifted or moved around as
time went on
another one who thought she had MS here. scariest time of my life. I had visual problems as well with a
whacky neuro test on my right eye. my MRI was normal. No MS. I believe my eyesight has recovered. the
burning and rash are VERY typical of quinolones
The absolute WORST thing, though, is the 'jerky' eye. It makes it hard to read and do most anything else.
I have been having problems with my eyes ever since taking cipro for a urinary problem. I took cipro 500
mg twice a day for about 6 - 8 weeks, a total of 1000 mg per day. I have floaters and spots in my vision. I
have not been on the medication for several months but the problems still persist. Has anyone else had
After mabey a month since i stop the cipro i started to have a little spot in the corner of my right eye and
after in my left one. Now i have it for about a month and a half but i have about 2 or 3 spots in each eye,
some its like a circle and some is like a piece of hair. But now, i ting that my spots dissolve because at first
its was little and dark and now its bigger but less dark. I see an ophtalmologist and he said that everything
is ok..i only have floaters
My adverse reaction to Avelox started out with a pain like no other in the right side of my face, involving
the eye. It felt as if someone had a pair of pliers pulling at the back of my eye and the pain spred under my
eye (felt like it was in the bone structure) down to the right side of my neck. I would go to bed
crying,(which made the pain worse! for days!) thinking that this pain would eventually make me go stark
raving mad. At times I understood Dr.
I was diagnosed with 'Posterior Vitreous Detachment' in my right eye. Does this sound familiar to anyone?
I had exactly the same thing happen after taking Cipro. The Cipro was in January (second round, first was
in the previous December.) and the eye problem began the middle of Feb. Still have clouding and debris in
I find it interesting because my mother who took Cipro for about 3 months for osteomyelitis last year now
has several new eye problems. One of which is the beginnings of macular degeneration. I'd have to check
with her what all the other problems are but, I think she has something similar to what Winnie was talking
about, the vitreous
I was diagnosed with cataracts the year following levaquin and now four years later with macular
degeneration, and was wondering if anyone else has been.
I wish I could recall exactly how long it took for my eyes to get better-- actually it was predominantly one
eye. You really need to have an opthamologist look it over rather than simply an optometrist/optician. I also
had abnormal nerve movement in the eye as measured by an EEG. (You watch a TV screen and the
electrodes record the nerve tracking of the visual image).
It's so strange, but as I look back for many many years, I have ALWAYS said that while and after taking an
antibiotic, I had trouble with my eyes. Now, of course after being floxed and ciproed to death 6 years ago, I
am really having trouble with my eyes. I go to an opth. Monday, the 20th to see why I have "narrow
Another thing to add to my laundry list!!!
Just a note about eye symptoms. The first week I took Levaquin, I woke up with one eye totally dry and
I thought I had an eye infection but, it did resolve itself. Now my eyes may look red and veiny but,
usually if I've slept poorly and I do have environment allergies. BUT, it was one of my initial reactions to
I also had a sudden vitreous detachment in one eye immediately after taking a 10 day course of Cipro. This
was among the other reactions,
Sorry to hear about how messed up your eyes are. I just completed my visit to an opthamologist(SP) for my
vision problem in my left eye.
I mentioned this happened after taking Levaquin and thought it was a possible reason for my eye sight
problems.. He said there are many drugs that can mess with the eyes, and Levaquin sure can be one of
Basically I have 20/40 vision in my left eye now, and 20/20 in my right.. No damage was noticed when he
looked at my eye.. he told me it isnt that bad vision wise and see him in a couple years for another
checkup..Well I guess good news for me for once :)... Anyway I hope you will one day be able to take
those triple bifocals off and heal from this mess muscle wise..
My eye doctor was not familiar with the ADR's to FQ's, however he listened intently and examined my
eyes very carefully. He also told me that whenever anyone has, for example, Lasik surgery, the antibiotics
used are likely to be FQ's: Ocuflox and Cipro. Something to keep in mind if anyone is considering that.
He said that as far as my actual vision goes, it's doing ok. I don't need to change my prescription. However
the double vision and blurred vision I've been having, he thinks is because my eyes are not behaving in as
coordinated a manner as they should be. I had problems with tracking an object and with getting my eyes to
I took 3 Cipro on July 9th, and have mostly been on the mend. But I've noticed short-term memory and
word-recall problems lately.Does anyone have any insights on whether this could be from the Cipro, at this
point in time, or just part of normal aging or whatever (I am 48, and for the most part, sharp as a tack). Also
yesterday I had a short period of time where my vision got blurry for no apparent reason. (I called the eye
doctor on that one,
and have an appointment for next week.
Last Friday, I noticed a flash of light on the side of my right eye. It has continued to flash and some floaters
are ocurring now that disturb my vision. Made an appt. with a opthamologist this morning for 1:45 PM
today. Just got back a short time ago. He diagnosed me with "posterior vitreous base detachment". He said
my retina looked
alright, but if I had an increase in floaters or saw a veil (a sign of a detached retina) to call him right away.
He said it should improve on its own and be much better in two weeks. I pray that is what will happen.
Whether Levaquin caused this or not, I don't know. But, I mentioned my ADR to the doctor and asked if it
could have contributed to it and he did not say no or yes.
I too had a problem with flashes of light in the corner of my eyes after taking Avelox. It cleared up after
five weeks, but has left me with floaters. I know this is alarming, but even if your retina does detach, there
is surgery now that will help you as long as you get to the Dr right away if you see the "showers". I am not
trying to make
light of this situation, as I well know how terrifying it can be,
Following my Levaquin adverse reaction approx. two years ago, I have had tinnitus and eye floaters. Has
anyone out there suffer similar symptoms and have them abate after two years? Is this damage permanent?
If anyone has
experience with the aforementioned symptoms or their associated treatments, I would greatly appreciate
About a year ago (time flies) I posted an article - written in awkward English from a foreign eye surgeon -
who stated that during an operation they scrapped off white stuff and found it was pure Cipro inside the eye
had it tested it was the pure chemical which had condensed in the eye.
BALTIMORE Because of its lower pH, ciprofloxacin seems to form drug depots at the site of a break in
the cornea, such as in a surgical corneal flap or the bed of a corneal ulcer, said Richard A. Eiferman, MD,
clinical professor of ophthalmology in Louisville, Ky.
"We originally thought that was very bad and would impair wound healing," he said. "When we looked at
the data we found that it did not impair wound healing. We looked at all our corneal ulcers and found that
they healed the
same length of time whether they had a precipitate or they didn't have a precipitate."
One patient's corneal ulcer allowed Dr. Eiferman to study the drug depot more thoroughly. The ulcer
caused the corneal tissue to melt, prompting a transplant to prevent perforation. The eye had been
ciprofloxacin, which had formed a precipitate in the ulcer bed. "I took the plaque out and I put it on a plate
of bacteria and had a nice zone of inhibition," Dr. Eiferman said. "When we took it out a day later and
put it in another plate of bacteria, it was still active." A laboratory analysis at Alcon Surgical sampled the
precipitate and determined that it was pure fluoroquinolone, he added. "It had been my belief that this
happens in every single corneal ulcer, but only in a few patients does it precipitate out so much that you can
see it," he said. Dr. Eiferman is now analyzing four corneal transplants for ciprofloxacin deposits and
intends to present his results at the meeting of the American Academy of Ophthalmology in October. "In
the two studies that were done, the two drugs appear to be equivalent," Dr. Eiferman said. "My gut feeling
is that Ciloxan may be better if it is sticking around in the ulcer bed."
Are depots effective?Discrete deposits of quinolones might not take advantage of the quinolonesÃ¢â‚¬â„¢
mechanism of action, said Terrence P. Brien,MD, in practice at the Wilmer Eye Institute in Baltimore and
member of the Cornea/External Disease section of the Ocular Surgery News Editorial Board.
"In general, it makes sense that a solution is better because if the drug is in solution it can penetrate to get
to the site where the infection is going on," he said. "If you're talking about a corneal infection, it is in the
stroma where the bacteria are replicating. If you have drug out on the surface, drug that's precipitated away
from the active site, potentially it is not effective." Any study of the precipitate needs to examine whether
the precipitated drug
is dissolving again into the tissue where it can have its antibiotic effect, he said. "Until that's proven we
have to be careful saying that precipitates are a good thing."
Corneal precipitates found to be ciprofloxacin deposits
This seems to indicate that Flouroquinolones pool in areas of our bodies. The eye is the only place where
this can be seen in clumps of pure chemical. It might explain why people report that they get better and
then they get worse,
the pure chemical might be breaking up over time and aggravating the intial ADR.
I remember reading that Levaquin keeps killing bacteria long after it is supposedly excreated through the
kidney. This, residue in the eye, seems to show that the drugs never fully left, they may have just penetrated
tissues and stayed there. I just woke up about 20 minutes ago and I paid close attention to my sight. I am
unable to see just about everything when I first wake up, everything is so blurry/cloudy, it seems to rake
some time for my eyes to focus enough to even look at pictures taped to the wall in front of my desk with
the PC on it. Then I
have no choice but to put on my reading glasses for at least an hour to focus on the words on the PC.
This just doesn't seem normal. And I still don't buy that an individual goes from wearing glasses for hours
of reading/tired eyes (college text studying, ya'll know what I mean, the long hours it takes to read
chapters of a boring text, college or not, but required reading) then to wake up one a.m. not able to
see any reading material (on the third day of Tequin) remember I shared with ya'll that I kept telling my
body felt like it was soaking in an acid pit, wonder if the excess acid fried my eyes or my Brain, grin.
Based on my experience with the ADR to Levaquin, it takes at least 3 years to be able to live/perform a
near normal life!
Even after 3 years, symptoms still exist, ie., numb toes, pain in ankles, burning (eyes, mouth, skin), visual
problems, passing pain in back of hands and lower arms, and at times - imbalance in walking, My left
eyelid is droopy also and my right eyelid tight. My left pupil is dilated and everything is a bit fuzzier than
usual. My eyes are strained when looking at the computer screen too long. I have problems with bright
lights, everything seems too
bright. I also have a twitch in my left eye. I think I need some tests to see what damage has been done.
For the past four months since taking my last Tequin, my left eyelid has been drooping...My eyes don't look
the same. My vision has been "dimmer" (need more lights turned on in the house), eyes get tired more
well has continuing to have no strength in my hands (and joint pain in the hands and fingers). I recognized
the joint pain and weakness as Tequin
I would like everyone who has had blind spots develop in their eyes since taking fluoroquinolones to email
me and tell me about them. On New Year's Eve I noticed a small area in the vision of my right eye was
blind. As I read a small portion of the word above the one I was reading would turn white like the paper I
was reading. On Wednesday, January 2, I saw my opthamologist who referred me to a retina specialist. The
specialist was sure I had an autoimmune disease because this type of vision loss is usually associated with
either arthersclerosis (older people) or retinal vasculitis (younger people). The results of the fluorescien
of both eyes revealed nothing. He could not find an occlusion or inflamation, even at the sight of the loss.
Today I went through all the blood tests, etc. to completely rule out any autoimmune disease and
I still have the vision loss. It has not changed in these 11 days. I am curious whether anyone else has had
Of interest is that my initial reaction and only time I have taken a fluoroquinolone was in October 2000. I
still cycle with muscle fatigue and pain every few months. Twitching has become a small part of my life.
My field of vision would be white, as if I had looked into the sun too long and could not clear my eyes
Has anyone experienced the same eye problems my wife is currently dealing with, namely nausea and
dizziness whenever she finishes reading something or while watching t.v.? With the t.v. it seems to me like
her eyes are telling her brain that she is moving even though she is perfectly still at the time. This then
to have motion sickness. I'm not a doctor but I just don't understand it any other way.
I have an increased number of floaters. I also have something like a dark sheer curtain effect that I see only
when I move my eyes side to side while looking at a white surface or the sky. But the most troubling thing I
have is a blind spot which occurred sometime around New Year's Eve. I noticed it while reading in bed. My
left eye was
covered by the pillow and I noticed a spot just above the centeral part of my vision was blanking out part of
the letters. Somehow the blood flow to that small part of my retina was cut off for a short period of time. I
have a "permanent" loss of sight there. I have had many appts with a retinal specialist and my internal
medicine doctor to rule out what normally causes this.
The first symptoms I had right after taking Cipro were vision related. My eyes became very dry, and I saw
flashes of light when I moved my eyeballs from side to side or up and down. The Opthamologist said that I
had a "vitreous detachment". I also had large "floaters" in one eye that he said were cells torn off from the
retina and optic nerve. Three years later, I still have this big gob of stuff in my eye that is like looking thru
waxed paper, and it is
especially difficult to see when the light is shining into that eye. My eyes are no longer dry, that lasted only
about a month,and I also had droopy eyelids at the time too. It was also difficult to focus and make my eyes
work together. All of those symptoms are gone, and I am left with the stuff in one eye, which gets no better
My eyes were tired and didn't focus well for quite some months after Cipro/Levaquin/naldixic
acid/Floxin/Tequin - all in a 6 or 7 month period. In addition, I had eyelid problems - one eye twitched for
over a month, and one
eyelid drooped severely suddenly and the other drooped a little. The last problem has not resolved itself
over two years later.
I did develop vision problems and had to get new glasses. I also fell and broke my arm nearly two years
later because my depth of field is really screwed up and I misjudged the height of a curb.Anyway, I aged 20
years in two years after Levaquin.
. My blurry vision has stabilized to a degree I can see things a bit more clearly, however my eyes are not as
reactive to light - I need more light to see things clearly.
I've been having a very bad twitch in my left eye and the pupil is continuously dilated. It seems every day
brings a new problem. The left eye looks completely different from the right one, the eyelids don't match.
Has anyone had eye problems? Do you have any info on what is happening that causes the twitch and
My eyesight was never good but now it's also a bit fuzzy.To refresh my history: I took 5 250 mg Levaquin
(the last pill was taken on 5/29). This eye problem is one of many that I'm suffering.
Her other pronounced symptom is that she cannot stand any bright light and she has "pain behind her
eyeballs". Friday the eye doctor gave her very dark glasses. Tomorrow she will have a series of eye exams.
(The doctor did not want to do them Friday because of everything that had happened that week.) The doctor
wants to know if this is a common reaction or a rare reaction, and if anyone has any insights into this
reaction. Any information I can give her would be helpful to her.
For what it's worth, I went through two bouts of light sensitivity after being FQd. The first lasted weeks and
happened a couple of months after the FQs. The second was another couple of months later, was not as
intense and lasted about a week. No recurrences in the last three months. (Since being FQd I was light
sensitive in months
3-5 and again at month 7. I am just finishing month 11.)
I too had problems with double vision. One on the many of my long list. I had the same treatment as you.
My eyes are still not 100% normal as they are very sensitive to the light and my visual acuity is not what it
was before being "floxed". Just thought I would let you know that you are not alone!
I have also had ongoing vision poblems, Rick describes them well but i never had a problem with bright
light. I can see better in sunshine: it is fluorescent light, probably because of the pulsing, that drives me
crazy. It is my right eye, and it has been that way off and on since April 1999 when I first took Levaquin. It
gets better and then
descends again unexpectedly. It is very distressing since my office is nothing but fluorescent lights.
Shortly after finishing a 9-day course of Levaquin, I developed double vision (diplopia). I had to take
Methylprednisilone for 6 days. The neuro-opthalmologist says I have inflamed eye muscles, and possibly
I have visual disturbances also, when I went to the ophthalmologist he told me that my eye sight was
normal. This is the only thing that he found: "The peripheral retinal presented patches of white without
glistening deposits at 2:00 o'clock and an apparent flap was questionable. Another patch of white without
pressure was seen at 6:30. There was a radial glistening dots on it was seen at 6:30. There was a radial fold
clockwise. A small patch of schisis-like with glistening dots on it was seen at 6:30 in the peripheral retina.
A patch of white without pressure was visible at the lower temporal quadrant. " At the end of the report it
He was also warned on increasing flashing lights and floaters and if present to seek eyecare right away."
This doctor told me that he wanted to do lazer surgery on the white spots that he found, as a preventitive,
but he specifically mentioned floters or flashing lights ( lightening bolts) as possibly signaling a problem.
The visual changes in me were a BIG increase in floaters (which are sloughed cells in the aqueous), a
change in vison acquity, and increased sensitivity to light.
when I go to Wal-Mart my eyes burn and I have this kind of spaced out feeling and am really anxious to get
out of there.
I was floxed over 18 months ago (Floxin), and have not been the same since in many ways. Since that time,
I've worn glasses a lot, but I notice that when I do try to wear contacts now, I get pain in the eye within
hours. Also a
red spot shows up right next to my pupil (in either eye, and on the inside toward the nose). The next day, I
cannot bear to wear them. I know the lenses are clean b/c they are one-day throw-aways.
Prior to this I wore contacts for 12 or 13 years without problem. I read on here that quinolones can show up
in the "aqeuous humor of the eye"? Could this be what I'm experiencing? If someone has had this, what did
you do about it?
I have had wierd visual problems like lots of floaters, and seeing things just wierd. Colors are too colorful?
And black is too black? Strange. Has anyone actually found anything wrong with their eyes from their eye
Cheri would be one of at least three people posting here who have had visual problems after being FQ'd.
I suffer from periodic attacks of silver shimmering spots in my visual field, combined on two occasions (for
a couple of weeks each) with intense photosensitivity. Another report here included permanent (I believe)
blind spots caused by shimmering areas. I don't have blind spots, I just have trouble seeing clearly.
In my case, I had my last photo-sensitivity episode around Christmas, and the shimmering is currently
For what it's worth, my shimmering problem is clearly worse under fluorescent lights, and better in the
My ophthalmologist (don't you hate trying to spell that) suggested that I might be having migraine visual
auras without the headaches. That sounds fine to me, except that I never had them until about a month after
I was FQ'd.
I call it "blurry vision" but that is really not a good description. My eye problem has three components.
become sensitive to light. I have trouble driving at night because headlights hurt my eyes. As you would
expect, this is most noticeable at night. Second, there is a kind of shimmering brightness in the vision of my
left eye. This has only happened twice, once around July 4 when my light sensitivity was the worst, and
again this week. It's
pretty scary. Third, I can feel my left eye. It isn't really pain, it's more like mild irritation. This gets worse
and better, but it hasn't really gone away since I was FQ'd. This week it's very distinct.
Despite these problems, the vision in my left eye is only slightly worse than it was. In the summer of 1998
my correction in my left eye was about -3.75 and now it's about -4.00. My opthalmologist says that a
quarter diopter is not a big change in a year, and is well within normal changes. Someone else who has
posted here mentioned that she
had been forced to get new optical prescriptions frequently (every month? every three months?) because
her vision was deteriorating. This does not seem to be the case with me.
A short time after I was "floxed", I felt a strange sensation in my left eye too. I would be walking say down
an aisle in the supermarket and I felt like my peripheral(?) vision was gone. I went to the opth. and he
anything wrong. I never mentioned the floxin to him because at that time I didn't know all I know now. My
overall vision is terrible, yet when my eyes are checked, my reading glasses don't need to be changed.
always blurry to me.
I posted early on in my Levaquin saga that my vision has been affected.I suddenly needed a new
prescription shorty after I was FQ'd, then needed another change, this time a weaker prescription, 2 months
later. I to had the floaters so thick they looked like cobwebs, now they are just little specks every so often.
Mine to were said to be cause of my
age. Never had them before the Fq's and they came on right after taking them. Streets lights and lights from
cars really bother me I won't drive at night.
I only wore glasses to read before now I have to wear glasses for distant. Also my brain and my eyes don;t
work well together, sounds weird but the only way I know how to explain it. I still have blurry vision and
sometimes the ground is wavy. I also saw colors, long blue lines. I hate to write this it sounds so crazy. but
it is the truth
I had asked the pharminfo net Dr about the quinolones. He said that the FQ's could affect any organ.
Would be interesting if some of you would go on the site and ask about the FQ's. Although they deny any
long term affect.
I also suffer from visual disturbances similar to yours. You mentioned a shimmering brightness in the
vision of your left eye but that it has only happened twice. I have three "blind" shimmering spots in the
vision of my left eye that the opthamologist believes are the result of severe nerve irritation possibly caused
by the two Levaquin tabs I
took. However, these shimmering spots do not come and go; they have been there since the day I took the
second tablet (March 20, 1999). I have also noticed a large area of occasional blurriness in the same eye
that does come and go. I avoid driving at night if possible because I just don't feel that I can "see" as well as
I did pre-FQ.