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FDChat #08 – Interview with Marty Flagg
Nancy Burban: And today I have the pleasure of chatting with a friend, Marty Flagg. He's the
second generation Funeral Director and embalmer from Illinois and Marty is also the author of a
very popular consumer book called "Final Celebrations." The book talks about funerals and the
importance of pre-needs for the importance of pre-arranging one's funeral. The book is geared
towards the celebration of one's life. Marty is also associated with the Mark Monroe Funeral
Home and the Brian Mark Funeral Home in Wisconsin, which is on the state line of Illinois and
Wisconsin and Marty has some really progressive views on the funeral profession, which is why
I wanted to chat with him today.
Let me read you that.
Marty is associated with the Mark Monroe Funeral Home and the Brian Mark Funeral Homes in
Wisconsin, which is on the state line of Illinois and Wisconsin and I wanted to chat with Marty
today because Marty has some very progressive views of the funeral profession.
So, we're going to talk about a couple of different topics, but the first one is, I'd like Marty to
introduce himself and tell us a little bit about how he grew up in the funeral profession. Hi,
Marty.
Marty Flagg: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
Nancy: Good, how are you today?
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Marty: Very good. It's a pleasure to join you, Nancy. I grew up. My father was a Funeral
Director. He bought his first funeral home in Southern Illinois. Shortly thereafter, my parents
divorced and my father moved up to Crystal Lake, Illinois, which is Northwest of Chicago and
bought a couple of funeral homes up there. So, I kind of grew up in Southern Illinois and
Northern Illinois. But I had worked side by side with him since I was five years old, mostly in
the prep room. I've got to say that I'm more of an embalmer than a Funeral Director.
I do love helping families, but a lot of my work is in the back room. Don't get me wrong. I love
working with families out in front too, but body presentation is very important to me and
embalming too.
So, dad died in the late 80's, and Jeff and I, my brother who was our partner, slowly sold out and
we got away from the business for a while. I took some time off and I'm back.
Nancy: Great. Well, welcome back, Marty. Since you were five years old...so, you're pretty
much this is all you've known all your life. Do you think that's accurate?
Marty: Very accurate, very accurate. I don't think that he was wrong in taking me down there at
that young of an age, but I learned. I learned by watching and handing him instruments and
watching from the back as the family saw their loved one and how they grabbed my dad and
said, "Thanks, Jim. She really looks nice."
Nancy: That's a great history because you grew up knowing that this was the way to really help
families grieve through their loss and to help them. What a wonderful profession it really is.
Marty: It truly is. And of course, unfortunately, that body presentation thing has really gone by
the wayside.
Nancy: Really? Could you tell us a little bit about that?
Marty: Sure. I think what I've seen over the past 15 to 20 years is that the body presentation is
not as important as it used to be. Most funeral homes 20 years ago, if the human remains did not
look proper and the makeup was not applied properly and the decedent did not look proper, that's
what everything weighed on. Now, it's more about price. It's more about, "it really doesn't
matter". And of course, that scares me and I see it a lot even here in the Midwest, where very
traditional funerals go on every day and I hope that that importance changes. I hope that it shifts
back to "that's very important". I really think that that's changing, Nancy.
Nancy: That's really a shame, it is.
Marty: It is. 53 percent of the families. Tom Wininger was just by with Aurora Casket when we
went to Continuing Education Program with them last week and he talked about it. We talked
about cremation and we talked about how things have changed and he pretty much is a numbers
guy. He's a pollster. He does numbers and research and he said that is really selling a lot over the
past 20 years.
Nancy: Wow. Do you think cremation has something to do with that?
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Marty: Well, it does. I think the funeral profession, I think that when cremation really started
coming our way 20 years ago, we didn't handle it properly. I still think to this day that we didn't
handle it properly, 53 percent of the families that come in our doors have no idea what they want
to do.
Nancy: Really?
Marty: I think that they hear out in the public that cremation is inexpensive. I think they hear a
lot of things out in public and it's our job to educate them on the options that they have. I'm not
anti-cremation at all. I have no problem with that, but the changes from the traditional funeral
service to just direct cremation often times now without even a memorial service is a concern.
Nancy: When you don't give families the option for a memorial or a visitation, you're really
robbing them of the grieving process and you speak about that in your book "Final Celebrations".
How important that is to really go through the grieving process?
Marty: Definitely. We did a little bit of research when we put the book together. We talked to
some psychologists and I can just be real honest with you, Nancy. As a layman or as a Funeral
Director and embalmer, I've talked with families and helped families 20 years ago with direct
cremation and I see them now 20 years later and they're still kind of walking around in a daze.
There was no memorial service and there was no kind of celebration. There was nothing and
they're still kind of walking around in a daze and that concerns me. I'm a nonbeliever in real
closure. I believe you can get close to closure, but you can see it. You see it in their eyes. You
see it when you talk with them. So, now when I'm with a family and I'm directing that funeral
and they ask me about cremation I tell them point-by-point in a very professional way what's
going to happen. I think that helps educate the consumer especially if they don't have any idea of
what really happens with cremation. Some people might find that a bit blunt, but I think that
educated consumers is the best consumer.
Nancy: You're absolutely right because if you make them aware of the fact that they do need to
have some closure and they do need to celebrate this life that's just passed, we spend a lot of time
celebrating births. We celebrate weddings, Bar Mitzvahs, confirmations, but one of the most
important things is when a loved one leaves this life, a lot of people don't know what their
options are to celebrate that or they don't know that they need to celebrate that.
Marty: They have no idea and therefore as a Director we need to kind of help direct them to
that area. OK. I said I'm not a big believer in closure, but to that area of being able to accept what
has happened and to say goodbye to their loved one, and of course, I'm a big believer in an
upbeat situation too. There's a big shift as we see in the churches here in the Midwest, these big
megachurches. Nancy, I think you have them out your way too. They are celebration on Sunday
morning and Saturday night. There is pastoring that goes on, but it's a celebration. There's music.
They bring the children upfront. There's a celebration. So, why not celebrate that loved ones?
Celebrate what they did in life.
Nancy: Now, what changes have you seen? You've been in the funeral profession for quite
some time. What changes have you seen in the funeral profession?
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Marty: Well, as we talked about the embalming and presentation of the body not being really as
important, less visitations. Back 20 years ago, a lot of the cultures had two full days of visitation.
You don't see that much anymore. A big shift towards visitation an hour before the funeral.
Again, I personally don't know if there's enough time especially if you have someone that had a
lot of friends and loved ones. I know that kind of trends down to be sometimes a financial
decision, but I've seen a big change to that.
More graveside services without a visitation, where everyone just meets at the gravesite. An
officiant is there and they have a small service. That's been a big change. I see more and more of
that.
I think most of this, Nancy, is probably geared towards the financial side. But I truly believe at
the same time that some of us are dropping the ball. I don't think some of us are really following
through. I've caught myself doing it too. We need to follow through, I think, more and I include
myself in this. I don't hold myself higher than anyone else. I think that we need to lead a little
more than follow like we used to.
Nancy: That makes a lot of sense. When you have a funeral on the same day as the visitation,
you really don't give enough time to out of town relatives and friends to really make it to the
wake and the funeral. We're such a mobile society. Years ago, we grew up in the same
neighborhood. I mean, I'm from New York. Everybody grew up in the same neighborhood. You
went to school. You got married, everything happened in the same five mile radius and that's just
not true today. People need to come from California to New York or from New York to Chicago
or whatever the case may be and if you do everything on the same day, you're not really allowing
the person to really be celebrating the way that they should be and you're just not really giving
enough time for people to be able to make it, travel wise, to the destination.
Marty: That kind of brings us to webcasting. We're looking into that for both firms right now as
we discussed previously, but we're looking at into the green burial and the association is helping
us a lot with that in FDA. I don't know really what to say yet about the webcasting. I know that if
I'm in California, Nancy, and I can't afford to come to New York for a funeral, I would love to be
able to go online and see that tribute. I would love to. But at the same time, when there's no time
and I live 30 miles away and for some reason I can't get there right at 11:00 because there was no
visitation, I agree with you 100 percent.
Nancy: How have your client families responded to the webcam online funerals? Are they
accepting of it? Because it is quite a new product, are they accepting of it? Do they feel it's
intrusive to the service? Let's talk about that for a minute.
Marty: Well, we're just looking into it right now. We don't offer it yet. But I've asked a lot of
pastors and leaders in the community and common folk about it. Some of them like the idea.
Now, a lot of our folks that are over 50 and 60 still are unconnected to the Internet. Some are, but
there are still many that aren't. So, that's not going to really be an option for them and I think that
generation tends to want to come to the funeral home or come to the gravesite and say their
goodbyes. It's an interesting trend. I've heard that the companies that offer it are doing very well
with it. There's a funeral home far north of here that offers it and I talked to Jeremy about a week
ago and he said that some, probably eight percent, 10 percent of the families are taking it.
They're doing it.
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Nancy: Well, I heard in California it's very well accepted and I heard that it's really very
popular out there. People really like it.
Marty: Sure. We've become such a mobile society like you talked about, Nancy. We're always
on the move. You don't grow up and live in the same neighborhood for 50 years and then you die
like we did, like the older generations of me did. You moved. Tom shared the numbers with us
about how many times the average family moves now. It's amazing.
Nancy: It is amazing. Now, what about your current funerals that you conduct? Do you have a
lot of videos, music played? Are they different than they were 20 years ago?
Marty: Yes. The music completely has changed. It's about the music that the loved one or the
loved one's spouse or best friends liked to sit around and listen to. The days of just the standard
Merrill Womach hymns. There are still folks that pick that, but that has all changed. We do offer
pictures to video to play during the visitation that constantly loop and show pictures of the
decedent and I think that's also a big move and I also like it too because it tends to going back to
celebration, Nancy.
Nancy: It's true. Now, have you worked with any funeral celebrants? Or are you doing any
green burials, anything that's kind of like on the cutting edge?
Marty: We just started looking into green burial a month ago. Of course as you know, there's
certain things that you need to do to become a green burial offerer and one of the first things that
we have to do is work with our cemeteries here. This is kind of new to them. They've been
educated on it, but maybe not accepting. We're working with the community and trying to come
up. I personally have not had a family come in and ask for it yet, but remember where I'm at,
Nancy, I'm in the Midwest.
Nancy: You are in the Midwest and we do get a lot of families in pockets. I guess like, around
New Mexico. On the West Coast, there are pockets where that's really big. They have green
cemeteries. The public is aware of it. People are very green friendly in those areas and as a
consequence, when they pass on they want a green burial. They want to go back to the Earth.
Marty: Yes. I just spoke this morning. It was interesting, before our call, before our interview.
Jack from Dodge Chemical had called me because I had sent him some questions to the email
about his embalming fluids. Dodge Chemical's a major embalming supply and fluid supplier to
the funeral industry and Jack said, yes, we make a cavity fluid. We also make an arterial that is
green friendly and not made with formaldehyde. So, the change is there, Nancy. Everybody's
making the change. It's a matter of implementing it and being able to offer it.
Nancy: Let's chat a little bit about...You said Jack is doing green friendly embalming fluid.
Marty: Yes, at Dodge Chemical company. Jack is their technician. When you call the
embalmer's helpline to Dodge, that's who you'd speak to. I believe that they all do now. They're
slowly getting away from formaldehyde. It is a carcinogen, but if you're handling it and careful
with it, it would not harm you. But the green burial regulations require that we not use a
formaldehyde based fluid.
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Nancy: That's absolutely right. There are, I think, three or four companies that actually do green
friendly embalming products. But, to my understanding, they're a little bit more expensive. Have
you found that to be true?
Marty: I haven't. We haven't had to order any yet because we haven't been certified as a green
burial provider yet. I would assume that word can get everybody in trouble that is a little more
expensive because it's a different formula. I'm sure they're not making it in huge mass quantities
like they do with the standard fluids that we use. Altoco, Pierce...I believe all of the major
companies now offer different products than formaldehyde.
Nancy: Yes. They have the TraumaCare. I think that's from Pierce and then the Dodge Esco
Leaf. Is that correct?
Marty: Yes.
Nancy: OK.
Marty: And Leaf by the way, if I could say, is a very good fluid. I use Dodge and I use Leaf
quite often at Marks Funeral Home and it's a great fluid. But this green burial, they have some
pretty high standards and if you want to offer that, you've got to get with the program. I think
every funeral home, Nancy, should offer it. It shouldn't be something that, "Oh, we don't offer
that". That's probably the worst thing you could ever say to a family, "Well, we don't offer that."
Nancy: Joe Sehee, who's head of the Green Burial Council, I interviewed him a while back and
he made a comment that if you have a family coming in for a green burial, it's kind of like a
family going in looking for a hybrid car and you offer them a Hummer.
Marty: Exactly.
Nancy: They're not going to accept it. They're of a certain mindset. They're very green friendly
and if you don't offer them a green burial, they'll go somewhere else.
Marty: Right. They will.
Nancy: So, you'll lose a sale. May be you won't make as much revenue on a green burial as a
traditional funeral, but at least it's a sale and the word will get out that you do green friendly and
you do green burials and perhaps other friends that come to the visitation because a lot of times
there is a short visitation.
Marty: Yes.
Nancy: In some areas, they actually rent caskets.
Marty: Yes. I have personally buried three times now probably the past 20 years. I've buried
the inserts of a rental casket. The cemetery accepted it. There was a vault involved and the
family demanded, "Look, we don't want to cremate this, but we want you to bury it". We did it.
The family asked us to do it and that might be shocking to some and there's others that will listen
to this and go, "Yes, I've done that."
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Nancy: Right. Everybody have a different mindset. I know that also you're on the cutting edge.
You use a lot of new products and you're using a new embalming product called ThanoSeal,
which I'm kind of aware that it eliminates a lot of leaks and it covers skin slips. Could you talk a
little bit about that?
Marty: Yes. Our friend, Ryan Thogmartin, that you and I both know and have talked with,
wrote a beautiful review on it. I've got to use it about 12 times over the past two months and it's
an option that is not having to use suture when we seal our incisions or we have a body that has a
little skin slip. It's at www.thanoseal.com. I spoke to the gentleman that kind of invented it and
he seems like a great guy. I've used it on autopsy cases, which have very large incisions. You
have to go slow and easy, but the whole thing about it is it does seal and it does keep you from a
possible needle stick. There are certain times that we have troubled cases and we'll probably get
into that too I hope with medications that people are on now before their death, but there's a lot
of medications now that doctors give to patients that our fluids are having trouble interacting
with. Therefore, we're seeing more cases where we're getting water blisters and even tissue gas
from time to time and skin slip and this product. Nancy, it's very similar to when you get an IV
in the hospital. It's a plastic, adhesive coverup that goes over the needle that's in your arm or your
wrist. It's a great product.
Dodge also makes one too. I've just never had the chance to use Dodge's, but this ThanoSeal I've
gotten to use and I really like it a lot.
Nancy: Yeah. I've heard really good things about it actually.
Marty: Yes.
Nancy: You're right. Let's talk about the medications that doctors are giving right now and their
effect on the embalming process.
Marty: Wonderful. I just talked to Larry Friel. Larry's an embalmer in Niles, Illinois and he's an
old friend. We were talking about how over the past 10 years we don't use a standard mix of
fluid on every case. You look at the case and you adjust the fluid to the case and we're seeing a
lot of different interactions now with Coumadin. It's hard to just track down what the drug is
because we don't know what the patient has had. So, we're having to adjust the strengths and
interactivity of our fluids to the case, not only just the person and how they look, but the
medications that they have in their bloodstream. In some of these normal cases that you would
think normally would come out perfect and firm or unfirm, however, you do your embalming,
it's going the complete opposite way and the first reaction is to double or triple upon your
strength and we've found that to be a big mistake too.
I know that Dodge. I know that Pierce and I think all the companies are working in their labs
now trying to find a way to get their fluids to interact with these new drugs.
Nancy: I live in Fairfield County, Connecticut and I've had the occasion to meet Marilyn
Monroe's physician and I know that the way she died, they had a very difficult time embalming
her and prepping her for visitation because her chest fell in. They were thinking of putting plastic
implants. They didn't know what to do and they finally resorted to stuffing her with cotton, but
everyone who attended the visitation said she really didn't look that good and they did not do a
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really good job of presenting her. That made me think when we were discussing about the
medications. You're going to have a lot of time people who die of drowning or suicide and it's
probably very difficult to make them presentable for visitations.
Marty: I had the opportunity back in the '80s to work at Memphis Funeral Home, which of
course, handled Elvis Presley and his family.
Nancy: All right.
Marty: Some of the embalmers that were left over there that were there then said the same
thing. They had a lot of trouble preparing the body and I'm sure that it had to do with the drug
use if I may say, or the drugs ,that they used to try and revive him. I guess that's really when this
started that we started trying to think, "OK, this fluid, how's it going to interact with what's in the
bloodstream?" And I personally think you've got to be really careful in what you do. I've made
the same mistake. I've doubled or tripled up because the fluid wasn't firming and it was a
mistake. Now I've got the remains are very dried out. I'm having trouble getting the decedent
dressed because it's so firm and it's just not a mistake that we've got to make.
The chemical companies will help us. They're working on it and I think that they're going to
come up with new and better things on the horizon. I have a positive outlook on that.
Nancy: No, no. Lot of these new products are helping significantly over what we had in the '80s
as you just said.
Marty: Yes.
Nancy: That brings us to another subject, the Pennsylvania lawsuit. You said you had wanted to
chat about that a little bit.
Marty: [laughs] I've waited since the Federal Trade Commission rule and the state laws really
bucked up in the early '80s when the FTC rule came out. Pennsylvania's bucking back. There is a
group from what I understand and I'm not completely educated on the whole case, but the sum of
it is that the funeral homes are fighting back on overregulation. It's not about the Funeral
Director's license or qualifications. It's about the standards and the rules that they set for the
funeral home owner. In many states, Nancy, Funeral Directors were not involved with the laws
that were written for the profession. Now, Wisconsin, Illinois and that's probably the two states
that I really know. NFDA has a lobbyist, of course, in Washington, but we actively work with
our state boards to help with regulation issues or issues that don't need to be regulated. I would
take it, in Pennsylvania, that they've been beat on and beat on and beat on and finally there's
starting to be some push back and I know that a lot of people are watching this lawsuit to see
what happens.
I think that if there's even a small victory in Pennsylvania, you will see this spread all across the
United States. I personally feel that we have some wonderful regulations. I think continuing
education, a lot of guys don't like it, but I think it's a good thing. It keeps you educated. It keeps
you involved. There are some laws, though, that are ridiculous. It's overregulation. It costs the
consumer. If it's going to cost me as a business owner, it's going to cost the consumer, Nancy.
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Nancy: You're absolutely right. Now, can you cite some of these?
Marty: Well, Wisconsin is pretty liberal with their laws here. Illinois...there're simple things all
across the country, so rather than say what state, there are states still that an unlicensed personnel
person cannot take a human body after it's been embalmed or put in the casket from point A to
point B. It has to be a licensed Funeral Director and I think that that's a little redundant. I think
that if I want my son, if I wanted Nicholas to take Mrs. Jones from funeral home A to funeral
home B, he should be able to do that because it's under my direction. Those are the types of
things that I kind of find redundant. I really do.
Nancy: Absolutely. It doesn't help the mortuary students either not giving them life experience.
Marty: We have got to give, especially now and if I may say, I'm going to put in another plug
for Dodge, but Jack Adams is teaching at Worsham now. I've known Jack for 30 years. He was a
rep for Dodge Chemical. He's at Worsham now and he's really getting into with these kids in
school now about mixing fluids, embalming and really interacting with them. That was gone for
a long time, Nancy. We would see kids that would come out of mortuary school and they would
put their gown and gloves on and they would just stare at you. They didn't know what to do and
this interaction allowing these guys and gals and by the way, a lot of gals coming into the
industry, Nancy, a lot of women in the industry now. I think that's great, but give them some
experience. Give them a little freedom.
Wisconsin's very tight about who can go in and out of the prep room. I understand that. But what
if it's a student? What if it's a 25-year-old nurse that wants to learn about embalming or what we
do in the funeral industry so she can pass that on when she has a death at the hospital. She has an
idea of what's going to happen.
Nancy: Right. Education's very important.
Marty: Very important. I think a lot of these Federal Trade rules who in my personal opinion a
lot of it's overregulation. I understand that there are people out there that don't practice properly,
Nancy. They're out there in any profession. But I think that we're overregulated. I highly agree
with that.
Nancy: The people that are making these laws don't really have a good understanding of what
goes on in the funeral home and especially in the embalming room. They make these laws and
they don't understand what the teaching process is and what's necessary and they don't leave it up
to the judgment of licensed Funeral Directors to make those decisions, which is really wrong.
Marty: And in some instances, don't even ask. They pass a bill and they don't even ask. Most of
the politicians across this country have had a death in the family. They've been to the funeral
home. They know. They have a basic understanding of what goes on. But how about asking us
what we think?
Nancy: Right.
Marty: How about asking us what we do? Kind of on the subject, we had a full donation the
other day. A full donation is where they take skin and bone. One of the transplant team members,
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the family said, "We would like to have the funeral on Thursday." And the transplant team
member told this family member, "Well, that won't be a problem for the funeral home. I'm sure
they can do that." Well, that's a big mistake. It took us 18 and a half hours to put everything back
together and we weren't able to do everything on Thursday. It's all about communication, Nancy.
Nancy: It is. It's about communication and education and as you just cited, the families don't
realize the complexity sometimes of what you need to do to get these bodies ready for visitation
and burial.
Marty: Exactly.
Nancy: And the time it takes.
Marty: It can be very time consuming. I would say one in six, everything goes right on time.
There's no problems. Everything goes smooth and then you've got all these other times that
something will creep up. You'll get busy. You're borrowing people from another place because
you've gotten too busy. And by the way, it's really good to still see that in our industry, even
though your competitor's across the street. Dad brought us up that way too and instilled that into
us. Al Querum was our competition in town. It was nothing to go to Al's on Saturday and see me
or Jeff driving the hearse for him. You know what I mean?
Nancy: Right.
Marty: The people in the community accepted that. Now I know in other places around the
country that's not accepted, but it's good that we all work together and we've got to keep that up.
I think this new generation has come in along has let a lot of the older things go. We're all in this
together, Nancy. We're all in this together.
Nancy: These are the new statistics; 57 percents of all students graduating from mortuary
schools are women. They don't have your experience, where they actually are second or third
generation Funeral Directors. They're actually choosing to enter the field because they think it's a
compassionate field very similar to nursing and they want to be there to offer their care to
families in their hour of need. What do you think about that?
Marty: I think they're great. What other profession can say that? That is just phenomenal.
Twenty years ago, they called me, I was a UK. That's "undertaker's kid." And of course, a lot of
the single guys that were just getting into the business kind of made fun of us; "Undertaker's kid.
He thinks he knows everything. Da-da-da." They used to have a lot of fun with us. I think it's
great to talk to someone and go, "Does your family have a farm?" "No, I was a nurse, " or I was
going to school and a friend of mine died and I went to the funeral home and I saw what you
guys did and how you cared for the family and I chose the profession." What other profession
can say that, Nancy?
Nancy: There is no other profession and I think that people really need to see that is. You're
right. There are things that you hear every day that are negative. But then there are so many more
positive things that are coming out and I think the young people that are coming into the
profession today are really doing it for the right reason. They're caring. They're loving. They see
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it as a helping profession not as, like you said, an undertaker's kid and all the creepy things that
probably people connotated to that.
Marty: Yes, yes. It's often remarked about me that I'm not the normal, stand-in-the-corner quiet
Funeral Director. I don't think there is a normal, stand-in-the-corner quiet Funeral Director
around anymore. We all interact in the community now. Our doors are open. We just had another
group of high school kids through the funeral home by and gives them tours and takes them
through the prep room and takes them into the chapel, spends about an hour with them. Those
kind of things, I think, Nancy, are great.
Nancy: It is great. And that's the way you're going to distinguish yourself also in your
community. Now, Marty, what do you say about the future of the funeral services industry?
Marty: Sure. Well, now to backtrack a little bit. One trend that I'm seeing right now that kind of
scares me a little bit gives me a concern is here recently I've just noticed that 83 percent of the
last numbers that came out, 83 percent of people in the United States have not preplanned their
funeral. I'm noticing a trend up right now of families coming in the door that have lost a loved
one that have no planning, no idea. You've got to take them from square one to square 200 and
I'm a little concerned about that. Now, that's here where I'm at, Nancy, OK? The trends I see in
the future is I think that cremation is going to continue to rise. I think that we need to offer more
tributes. By the way, I enjoyed your interview online. I think there needs to be more tribute and
more remembrance and celebration of the person's life than less what we're seeing right now.
As we talked earlier, I'm seeing a lowered trend towards even a luncheon afterward, just dry
cremation and the scattering of the cremains and I'm really concerned about that.
I think cremation will tend to trend up. I think pre-arranging is going to come to a lull for a
while. I kind of see that was what I'm seeing with families walking through our doors right now
that have no clue what mom or dad wanted and that's a concern I have.
Nancy: Why is that? Why do you think that the pre-need sector is declining?
Marty: Well, believe it or not, we're at fault again. I think when pre-need really took off, I think
'89 was the biggest year that I saw pre-need really gearing up fast and going hard, all these
companies opened up and as we know a bunch of them have folded. The state trust at the IFDA
down in Illinois, with all due respect, there's a lot of money missing and I think that the
consumer is watching the news now. As we've talked, Nancy, the news cycle is very quick now
and I think that the consumers has become more educated and I think they're a little leery of
trusting the money or putting it into an insurance program. I think it will come back, but I think
it's in a lull right now and part of it is from the mishandling of the money.
And I think that we need to take some responsibility too. There are a lot of companies out there
flying by the wire, Nancy, and it has cost a lot of funeral homes. My friend in Illinois made a
burial on a funeral arrangement the other day. The family had put $9,000 in the trust and the trust
was so low that he ended up getting $1,850.
Nancy Burban: Wow.
p.12
Marty Flagg: For his services an four or five of those a year could put you out of business.
Nancy: You say in your book "Final Celebrations" also that people should at least plan. You
have some forms and things in there. And I think you actually fill out the forms and you go
through the whole process of at least planning, then you leave your loved ones with your
intentions whether you have a cemetery plot, where it is, how you want to be buried, do you
want to be buried in a green burial? Do you want cremation? Do you want a ceremony?
You know, what are your requests, your final requests? If you don't make that known, then
you've just caused additional burden on your family or friends when you do pass.
Marty: And that's what I meant. I mean people, just taken 20 minutes to write down the
information and that's what I meant, not just trusting the money or buying an insurance policy to
fund it. There are people walking in the door with nothing in their hand. Well, me and John
never talked about this and I understand that, that happens every day. But I'm seeing a trend of
more and more and more of not seeing any of that especially, of course, with sudden death. I
think, Nancy, and people may think I'm crazy. I think if you're over 21 years old, you should take
20 minutes and write out what your feelings are and what you want and put it in the top drawer
and tell somebody where it's at that would save the family so much grief, as you know.
Nancy: It would save so much grief and you speak about it in your book. I think when you read
it, it makes a lot of sense. People don't want to face the inevitable and that is that we're all going
to die one day and it could be tomorrow, it could be 20, 30 years from now. But it is going to
happen. That's one thing that's certain and it is such an important decision that you absolutely
should prepare for it.
Marty: Hospices use our book, my book a lot. If you notice on the front cover, the balloons
going up in the air. I've got a hospice nurse who is close to me that likes to, you know, when
she's dealing with a patient that is terminal and it's not good. And she'll take that book and just
set it on the table at the house and it kind of gets at times the patient or the family member
thinking about "Hey, what do we want to do here?" It gets the mindset. And, of course, it's easy
to pick up because of the cover; it's very welcoming and it's more about celebration than just
doom and gloom.
Nancy: And I understand, I know somebody, a friend of a friend in Kansas that actually read
your book and decided to, he has brain cancer and he knows that his time is short and he actually
decided to make his own casket. Well, he had it contracted, but he designed his own casket and
he's designing it out of Legos.
Marty: Wonderful.
Nancy: He's one of those people that, you know, like us that grew up in Legos and it's a fond
memory for him and he actually once he contracted with a firm in Wichita, Kansas to actually
build his Lego casket so that when people come they're not so sad and crying. They're like "Oh, I
remember. He used to love Legos". It's a lasting remembrance of who he was and what he stood
for in his lifetime and a lot of baby boomers are doing things like this.
p.13
Marty: They're getting involved. I think that's all any Funeral Director or embalmer would ever
ask, Nancy, just to be involved. Getting involved, being in touch with what you want to do or
what your loved one wanted done. It is a great relief on the other hand when the family comes in
and they've got the obit ready. They've got the numbers that we need as far as social security and
pertinent information. Those families that walk in, they're involved. They're not detached from
the whole situation.
And I think you're right. I think the boomers are coming around and saying "Hey, I want to be
involved with this".
I know I would. I know I would. I know I wrote everything up right after the book came out. I
personally hadn't done it. So, I sat down one day and wrote it out and it's in the file cabinet with
mine and Mark and [indecipherable 0:42:18.8] . So, if something happens to me, 90 percent of
my arrangements are done.
Nancy: That's terrific and more people should follow your example.
Marty: Just get involved.
Nancy: Right. You're speaking about the other interview I had done with Jeff Taylor about
tributes where Funeral Directors are actually putting the obits online and they actually power the
backend of your funeral home website so really there's no trouble and it's free and people can go
on and actually add to the guest book, add photos. I know I had a friend who just passed on. She
just turned 60 in a very unexpected after an operation. She was on tributes.com and I know
people from all over the country came on and they offered their remembrance of her and told a
story or posted a photo and it was so beautiful because 135 people came together in celebrating
this woman who we thought we had a lot more time with and we didn't.
Marty: I think that's great. Tribute is something that we're really looking hard at right now. I
think that that's again I hate to reuse the word again, but it's being involved. You get people
involved. They're able to share their experiences, maybe a quick story. I've always believed in
that and we're coming along. We're getting there and you probably discover the websites every
day like I do. The funeral profession is coming along. We're not playing catch up. I think that
we're on the edge of the technology, but we're getting there and I think that technology and the
funeral profession can be a nice match.
Nancy: It's a nice match if people understand it.
Marty: Exactly. And of course, back to education and showing people how things work and
how to do this and that and, of course, the simplest that we make it, Nancy, the better.
Nancy: Absolutely and you're doing a great job of educating people. I understand you're
updating your book and it's going to be coming out in a new, revised version soon and that's
going to be such a huge help. When I first heard that you had written this book and I went on
Amazon, I started speaking about it and I realized a lot of people are aware of this. A lot of
people are using this as a resource and that's a great thing.
p.14
And I think you're doing a really valuable service, Marty, to consumers. Because when you go
into the funeral home you want to know what you're up against. I mean, you don't want to have
to think that "Oh, I have no idea how much this funeral is going to cost. It could be $2,000. It
could be $8,000. No clue."
In your book at least you prepare people like this is what a cremation involves. This is what a
traditional burial involves and I know in your new book you're going to be talking about green
burials and other options, sea burials, things like that.
And I think giving people those options is so important because you let them make a decision
about their life and how they're going to be remembered..
Marty: Yes. We're going to put a couple of chapters on pets too. I'm looking at my black lab,
Jenna, right now as we speak. There's a lot of creative things coming along with pets and
memorials, that's coming along good and not just cremation. There's pet cemeteries too, but
there's a lot of new creative. I shared one story in the book about Tippy. There was a lady in
town that had a special dog and Tippy had died and she had had the neighbors bury Tippy out in
the backyard. A little Chihuahua and after a couple of days she came up to the funeral home and
goes "Marty, I want you to come over and remove Tippy and have Tippy cremated. When I die, I
want him to go in the casket with me."
And this was 1986. So, think back to 1986. I had never heard of this or thought about it before in
my life and look how far that that's come now, Nancy.
Nancy: Yes. Now there's pet cemeteries. There's pet funerals. There's a lot of pet products and
people are really embracing it and let's face it. There are 60 percent of people who own pets
consider them as a member of the family. So, if they're a member of the family and they pass on,
why not treat them like you would anybody else in your family and celebrate their life?
Marty: Exactly.
Nancy: Well, Marty, it's been great chatting with you today. Do you have any final words?
Marty: Thank you, Nancy. We appreciate you and I wanted to tell you to have a good time at
the convention.
Nancy: Best of luck on the revision of your new book, "Final Celebrations".
Marty: Same to you, Nancy. Thanks for kind of being a leader here and bringing us all
together. We really appreciate you.
Nancy: Marty, you're so sweet. Thank you, bye.
Marty: Bye, bye. [cut off here]
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