BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS
Tuesday, February 12, 2008
5:00 P.M.
President Steele called the meeting to order at 5:00 p.m. and the following were
interviewed for a position on the Zoning Hearing Board:
Jim Sechrist 5:00 pm
Bennett Ryer 5:30 pm
Zane Williams 5:45 pm
At 6:00 p.m. the regular meeting of the board was called to order with the following in
attendance:
Comm. Knepper Scott DePoe
Comm. Ness Elizabeth Heathcote
Comm. Silberstein Dennis Henry
Attorney Steve Hovis
Comm. Steele advised that Comm. Briddell was ill and would not be attending the
meeting, the first meeting he has missed in 10 years.
Minutes On motion of Commissioner Knepper, seconded by Commissioner Ness
the minutes of January 7th and 8th were approved as presented. Vote 4 yes.
Payment of Bills
On motion of Commissioner Knepper, seconded by Commissioner Ness,
the professional service bills and the following bills for January were
approved for payment:
General Fund $ 826,094.37
Sewer Revenue Fund 79,983.55
Intermunicipal Sewer Fund 9,690.16
Capital Reserve 6,134.08
Street Light 220.07
Professional Service
Non reimbursable $ 35,000.02
Total $ 922,122.22
Vote 4 yes.
February 12, 2008
Page 2
Comm. Silberstein
It was my understanding that we were going to be provided with
additional information, rather than a simple listing of the payees and the
amount and check number. In fact the finance director provided us with
that information as far as which funds things came from at the last
meeting. It was my understanding that was going to be part of our
packets, and unless my packet is incomplete, I did not receive that. I don‟t
know how I can make an informed decision when I simply see things
listed here. It was passed out to us at the very beginning of the meeting, I
thanked Fred for it, and he indicated that was going to be a part of the
regular meeting packet.
Elizabeth Heathcote: Do I have that in the minutes? So you want to see a
list of the checks?
Comm. Silberstein: By fund, please.
Comm. Steele: We have a listing of the checks by fund. I heard that
discussion also, but I don‟t think it‟s in the minutes.
Comm. Silberstein: I think there‟s a variety of individual comments that
aren‟t in the minutes. The minutes, as I understand it, are to reflect the
various discussions and the motions by the board, not necessarily be a
repeat.
Comm. Ness: I‟d like to point out that I noticed one of the bills for Stock
& Leader there was a telephone conference with Mr. Briddell. I‟m sure
that we made a statement that if there be a talk between the solicitor and
one of the commissioners that we would be informed, and I don‟t believe I
was. I just want to mention that. That probably slipped through because it
was over Christmas and that was the situation with the Stump property and
I understand that. I‟m tunnel visioned on that.
Executive Session
Comm.
Steele
Since one of our members is not here, we will postpone that until
tomorrow evening. The purpose of the executive session would be to
discuss pending litigation. If we had had that meeting any official action
that would have been taken at the conclusion of that meeting would have
been announced.
February 12, 2008
Page 3
Comm. Silberstein: I need a clarification from our solicitor of when the
board would be going into executive session and specifically regarding
litigation that‟s not yet filed.
Solicitor Hovis: At this point in time we would be going into an executive
session at the end of this session, at some time we would announce that
there would be an executive session purpose for that. The litigation that
you refer to is at least threatened in the correspondence that we received
and that is the basis for the executive session.
Comm. Silberstein: Does the law require that when we are going to go
into….. that when we are being threatened with litigation that we go into
executive session?
Solicitor Hovis: You have the right to go into executive session.
Comm. Silberstein: But it is not required?
Solicitor Hovis: No.
Comm.
Steele You may have noticed that Comm. Knepper and I have changed seats.
This has been mutually agreed, so that we can both hear better with
discussions that take place in that direction (pointing right).
PUBLIC COMMENTS
Chief
Gross Was to make a citizen commendation, but recipient did not arrive. Will
table to March.
John
Bowders
Comm.
Knepper Excuse me John, before you start. I‟m to help you understand what‟s
going to take place here. First of all, typically when people come to stand
before this board they recognize they are standing before the highest
ranking officials in the township. They strive to be the most courteous and
professional when they stand before this podium. I have no intent of
infringing on your freedom of speech. I am going to encroach on your
ability to disrupt this meeting some times, including tonight. I know you
February 12, 2008
Page 4
may look startled, but that‟s what I am going to do. If I raise my hand,
I‟m going to expect you to take your seat at that point. All right?
John Bowders: That‟s a very interesting comment Mr. Knepper. And I
don‟t know where that came from. I think that perhaps you are reacting to
some things I said in the past in conditional use hearings where citizens
actually have rights to speak.
Comm. Knepper: I‟m not encroaching on your right to speak, never am. It
is not my intent whatsoever, nor is it tonight. I said I am encroaching on
your right……
John Bowders: That‟s right, you are encroaching.
Comm. Knepper: to disrupt this meeting, all right? To further my
point…..
John Bowders: I understand what you said, and I take offense to your
remarks…
Comm. Knepper: That‟s good, I‟m glad, at least you have a level of
understanding about what I am talking about. Further I have asked Chief
Gross to stick around in case it becomes necessary to usher you out the
door and off the property if necessary. I‟ll not tolerate it any longer. Is
there any part of that you don‟t understand?
John Bowders: I understand that perfectly.
Comm. Knepper: Thank you.
Comm. Silberstein: I‟m going to interrupt for one moment and state that
this is not the opinion of all the members of this board.
Comm. Knepper: It‟s my opinion. I am voicing my opinion.
Comm. Steele: Mr. Bowders, you have the floor as a citizen. You have
the right for a public comment. Please proceed.
John
Bowders I am the legislative chairman for York County Citizens for Smarter
Growth, Box 66, Dallastown. I‟d intended to speak to two issues tonight,
one of them I am going to defer to because…… for reasons that will
February 12, 2008
Page 5
become evident at another time. Instead I am going to make an impromptu
remark concerning the proposed executive session.
I would point out to Mr. Hovis that the Reading Eagle case requires that
you identify with sufficient specificity the nature of the threatened
litigation so that citizens can understand that in fact there is a legitimate
threat of litigation that the township may be facing that warrants an
exception to the sunshine law and warrants you having an executive
session.
The second issue that I want to raise tonight is the mechanism by which
the zoning office responds to constituent inquiries. Last month Comm.
Silberstein raised an interesting question. He asked Elizabeth how
complaints or inquiries about zoning infractions, signs, or something like
that should be handled. Elizabeth replied they could be submitted by
phone, email or in writing. That sounds very user friendly, but if the
inquiry disappears in some kind of black hole and isn‟t acted upon then we
have a problem.
I think we may have a bit of a problem, because a little more than a month
ago on January 11th I wrote to Elizabeth to inquire about the golf course
construction work being done on the Glen Gery quarry. Previously last
summer, Attorney Bob Katherman had written and said he was going to
build two holes up there, it was going to be a little less than an acre. From
our observation it looks to be much more than that. So I wrote to Lisa and
asked her to respond to what‟s going on up there. I didn‟t get an
acknowledgment. I didn‟t get a response. Now that‟s an isolated incident.
But it seems there has been a pattern here of inquiries addressed to the
zoning office and flippant responses like „I‟m not aware of that‟, or „I have
no knowledge of that‟. Those really aren‟t very good answers and
shouldn‟t be acceptable answers. I think if one of you made a complaint
to the zoning office and wanted to know what was going on a construction
site, or asked the zoning office to make a zoning inspection you would
expect someone to go do that.
More importantly now, I think you are about to have one and it‟s time to
think proactively. The state is about to pass, if the governor hasn‟t already
signed the revised sunshine law and open record law. It‟s going to tighten
the time you have to respond to things and the manner in which you
respond to constituent inquiries. I think as a result of this law, you are
going to have to do a better job than you are doing now at logging in
complaints and inquiries and documenting what kind of response has been
provided.
February 12, 2008
Page 6
Over the past year I have been astonished because York Township is one
of the few governmental bodies that I have ever seen that doesn‟t date
stamp or time stamp incoming mail. An electronic time stamp costs about
$200, which is about an hour of Mr. Hovis‟ time that it would cost to sort
out a problem as to whether something was timely filed or not.
You may also want to set up a docking and tracking system to keep track
of matters pending before zoning, applications for fences, signs, shed
permits, as well as when is the next meeting for conditional use hearing
for Heritage Hill. Someone should be able to look at a computer screen
and give that answer without having to track down the zoning officer.
A tracking system is a management tool that lets Elizabeth know whether
the employees in the zoning office are working productively and bringing
matters to a timely resolution. It may show that everything‟s working
fine, and I hope it does. If it shows that people in the zoning office are
falling behind in their duties maybe they are consumed with handling
TND matters. Sometimes that‟s the law of unintended consequences. If
you don‟t have a system in place you don‟t really know where the
problems exist. If you do have a system in place even the receptionist
should be able to answer inquiries like this. There are software
applications available, one is etrackit, another municity. You are going to
have to have a tracking system to answer timely open record inquiries. I
am suggesting that you have a system that will allow Elizabeth, allow you
as ultimately managers of the township to receive monthly reports from
the zoning office to monitor problems before they become bigger
problems.
Mr. Knepper was that good enough?
Teri
Hollway Presented the 2007 Annual Report for the Zoning Hearing Board.
PRESENTATIONS
Robert
Holweck Representing the Environmental Advisory Council (EAC). Enacted by
Ord. 2004-15 on November 9, 2004. Current members are Robert
Holweck, Jake Romig, Josie Dick, Scott Dolla and Bill Nicholson. They
have been working with the following departments and agencies: public
works, recreation, York County Conservation, DEP, ACOE and
Watershed Allicance of York. They have been improving Mill Creek
Preserve with Boy Scouts working on their Eagle Awards. They believe
February 12, 2008
Page 7
that one of the areas they need to focus on in the future is stormwater and
waterways.
Lou
Tateosian Presentation - Pedestrians in York Township. Especially the intersection
of Leader Heights / South George and Indian Rock Dam Road. There are
warning signs at this intersection and no place for pedestrians to walk or
cross the streets. Also at Wise and Indian Rock Dam Road. To get good
walkable communities you need safe walking areas, cross walks, signals,
crossing warning signs and a community plan. I think we should have an
overall plan for sidewalks. There‟s no way to cross the Leader Hts./South
George Street intersection. I came before this board a couple of years ago,
and I strongly suggested that you put in some traffic signals to allow
people to cross safely. That‟s way I‟m back, nothing has happened. They
have to cross in the middle of the road. At the Wise Road and Indian
Rock Dam Road intersection, across from the school. Indian Rock Dam
Road has become the east west bypass. Vehicles that are going east on Rt.
30, rather than go through town, they come down through Indian Rock
Dam Road and connect to 83 to go south. This is a heavily traveled road.
Across from the intersection is Leader Hts. School. There are mothers and
kids that would like to walk to school. There are no cross walk signs
indicating pedestrian crossing. They are really necessary. The cross walk
doesn‟t make it safe to cross, but it does help. It says this is for
pedestrians. We don‟t treat pedestrians like they do in California, if they
see you on the street waiting in the cross walks, they stop. Here we may
slow down. We want to make it safe to walk to school. Some times we
walk our grandkids down to school. The traffic has picked up in the last
30 years. There are a lot of destinations in the area.
Comm. Silberstein: Are we going to address that intersection? I‟d like to
ask our public works director how much it would cost to put some kind of
pedestrian crossing. How can you cross the intersection? If you are hiking
or biking you get to the intersection and it is posted no pedestrians in all
four directions, are you suppose to turn around and go back?
Scott DePoe: The cost would be based on a number of factors. The traffic
signal permit would have to be revised to reflect pedestrian crossing. We
would have to install the „hand‟ with walk/no walk fixtures, if PennDOT
would approve the change. There would have to be ADA ramps put in at
all four corners and the stripping. I can get you those rough numbers by
the next meeting. We did replace that controller in 2007 construction, and
that is equipped to handle the additional circuitries.
February 12, 2008
Page 8
Comm. Silberstein: Would the township be responsible for the ADA
sidewalks or the property owners?
Scott DePoe: I can speak on what we have done in the past, we have put
the ADA ramps in. Pauline/S. Queen Powder Mill and Leader Hts. That
was part of the township costs. The ADA ramps were brought up to a
certain level and the sidewalks would be the property owners
responsibility.
Comm. Silberstein: Would it be alright with the board if we have Scott
investigate the costs. I would like to make a motion to have Mr. DePoe
gather the costs associated with putting adequate pedestrian crossings at
Indian Rock Dam Road, Leader Heights Road and South George Street.
Comm. Ness: I‟ll second, so we can talk about it. I want to remind the
commissioners that we have down the road a little bit further another
individual coming before us for sidewalks with Peoples Bank, which is in
the same neighborhood. We haven‟t made a decision on Peoples Bank
yet, but we are thinking about Indian Rock Dam Road and the Old Trail.
I‟ve thought a lot about sidewalks throughout the town, I would like to
have the solicitor answer me a question. Section 215.41 says „may‟ for
sidewalks. If it‟s a mandate from the township to have sidewalks and
things that go along with that…as I read the ordinance it says „may‟ I
didn‟t think it was really a requirement. The reason I‟m bringing this out,
I could do a better job of making decisions if it‟s a requirement. We do a
lot in the township, and I am sure people that have been here have seen
that we have given them a 6 month letter. What happens is we send them
a letter and within 6 months they are required to put in sidewalks. I think
that‟s the basis of everything Lou‟s talking about here. Sidewalks
generate everything else. Sidewalks get you through the neighborhoods. I
need to know from the solicitor how definite is that ordinance? I thought
it said „may‟ and I didn‟t think it was a requirement.
Being in the business knowing a little about ADA ramps and that type of
thing on an intersection, I have inspected those things before and they are
quite pricey. How much money do you want to spend? Go down the
street a little bit farther at People‟s Bank, I pushed the buttons and you get
10 seconds to go across the intersection there and it gives you 20 seconds
of blinking light, you have a total of 30 seconds to get across the
intersection of Leader Heights. I‟m still spry yet and I can get across
there, but I have a lot of friends that don‟t move as quick as I do. I know
it is a state requirement. I know Mr. DePoe would tell me that, right?
February 12, 2008
Page 9
Scott DePoe: It is permitted by the state and they set the time. The
individual who checks that is in a wheelchair. When you give time to a
pedestrian crossing that takes away time from the intersection for
vehicular movement. There is a fine balance we are trying to strike here.
Comm. Ness: I pushed the button and in the 10 seconds I was in the
turning lane with traffic turning, so if I had been in a wheelchair they
would have run right over me.
Scott DePoe: By state law they are to yield to pedestrians in the cross
walk.
Comm. Ness: I know how people drive in York Township. We have to
look at two things, sidewalks and the cost of the improvements. I think it
is a reasonable issue to find out costs, but I‟m not sure that would be a
good average cost everywhere. If we decide to do that I would leave that
up to Scott.
Solicitor Hovis: The section that you are referring to is an ordinance that
was adopted in accordance with the First Class Code that empowers a first
class township to require residents to install sidewalks. Typically that
relates to already existing developments, we utilized in the Spry
improvements when we went through there with sidewalks. The power in
the first class township code to either require or not require the residents to
install their own sidewalks. In that case the township could have done it
or have required by ordinance the residents to install them. We also have
a SALDO ordinance that applies to new development. Part of the land
development process there are certain sidewalk requirements to include
them in your land development plan. That would be something included
in the MPC versus the First Class Township Code. The sidewalk
provision in our sidewalk ordinance is a „may‟ but that‟s a different
situation.
Comm. Ness: There are two situations, if you go under SALDO,
sidewalks would be required if we desire. The other one is a blanket for
the other areas and not really required.
Comm. Knepper: Lou if you got across the street, where would you go to?
Lou Tateosian: I‟ve been observing, they walk along the street and on
lawns. The state law talks about where there are no sidewalks. Many
people walk in the roads, but the big problem is crossing major roads. If
there are destinations, people do it. There are people that live in the
February 12, 2008
Page 10
mobile homes and they go to work, they walk to work. They go across the
street. They take their life in their hands. If a pedestrian is hit by a car
doing 40 mph, there‟s an 80% chance he will be killed. The first problem
to solve is getting people safely across streets. People do walk, and they
are not all vagabonds.
Comm. Knepper: Where would be the closest place you get sidewalks? If
you left your house on Reynolds Mill where would you pick up
sidewalks?
Lou Tateosian: There will be sidewalks all along Leader Heights Road.
Once the Kinsley property has sidewalks, there is a section on the corner
of George and Leader Hts. that doesn‟t have sidewalk. Most of that does
have sidewalk. If you want to walk to the store, especially with gas prices.
From the standpoint of health, it‟s really good for kids to walk to school if
they can.
Debra Hatley: There‟s a program out there, Safe Routes to School. You
can apply for funding for that. A lot of times it‟s funded through a school
district to connect communities to a school. Some times they are done as
a community group with citizens involved trying to find locations where
connections can be made.
Vote 4 yes.
COMMISSIONER AGENDAS
Comm.
Silberstein
Volunteers I have a lengthy list, I will limit it to a few. I had a discussion with the
township manager regarding township residents volunteering their
services to come in and help with semi-mundane tasks, filing or copying
or those kinds of things and I think it would be a wonderful opportunity
for some people to get involved and also assist the township in reducing
its clerical expense or preclude us from hiring another individual. I‟d like
to bring it forth and give Elizabeth our endorsement in proceeding with
that. I move that we authorize township manager to initiate a program
utilizing volunteers from the township residents as volunteers in the
administrative office to assist staff. Seconded by Comm. Ness. Vote 4
yes. (Township insurance policy covers volunteers)
February 12, 2008
Page 11
BOC
Information We get a voluminous amount of information prior to our meetings. On
Monday or Tuesday, but after the weekend, we get all of this information
on a CD for those of us who choose to load it on our computers. I‟m
wondering, and I‟ve spoken to Gary on this, and I understand that the
reason this doesn‟t come on Friday is because the information isn‟t getting
to the township manager in time for the CD to be prepared to come to us
with the packet on Fridays. If I had the CD on Friday I would be able to
save a tree. I would rather make my notes and comments on the computer
as opposed to the paper. Gary tells me it takes 3 hours uninterrupted from
the time he receives the information until the CDs are finished. Seems to
me we could move up the deadline a day for people to get stuff to the
township manager, so we can get this information on Friday and give the
commissioners time to review over the weekend. My motion would be
that we authorize the township manager to take whatever steps necessary
to provide the commissioners with a CD with the commissioner‟s packet
information on Friday prior to the meeting.
Comm. Ness: I‟ll second it so we can talk about it. I‟ve been here a little
longer than Ken. I have a job and I work sometimes 24/7, and it is very
distressing to me sometimes to receive the packet at 5:00 on Friday and
spend the weekend working on the packet, which is okay. I usually get a
rush job on Friday afternoon. To be honest with you, I would like to get
them a week earlier. I understand that when you work in government
things do move a little slower. I don‟t know if Elizabeth can move it up.
Do you think you can?
Comm. Knepper: We need to look at Dennis Henry for a little help as
well.
Dennis Henry: Since things are slowing down it is a little better. We have
a schedule for plan submittals, plan schedule for Planning Commission,
plan schedule for BOC, I won‟t have a problem if the board wants to move
it up, but if we have to move the schedules we will have to inform the
applicants that they are going to lose a week in the process, and maybe
move to another month. Or we will have to adjust our schedule to make it
happen. Moving it a couple of hours is not a problem, it‟s moving it
several days or a week will change that schedule. It‟s not that we can‟t do
it, it‟s just what has to be done.
Comm. Ness: You mentioned the Planning Commission, I thought by law
you have to have it in 15 days, aren‟t there specifications like that?
February 12, 2008
Page 12
Dennis Henry: Yes, the time starts running when the Planning
Commission makes the first review of the plans. Prior to that all of the
different departments have to look at the plans and get their comments
back to our office. Also our outside consultants have to look at them and
get their comments back to engineering, and then we put that together to
make a recommendation to the board. There is a time situation that starts
after the package administratively is complete. The time line that the
MPC talks about doesn‟t start until the package is administratively
complete. Once that happens then the schedule starts where you have to
submit to the Planning Commission. They have a certain amount of time
to review just like this BOC.
Comm. Ness: What I have done in the past, I think it is 15 days before the
Planning Commission meeting comes up I usually tell the people if you
don‟t have it together you go to the next month. Once the clock starts
running you have to consistently run through on all the procedures you
need to do. I don‟t have a problem with that. I really don‟t see how it
would be a problem on your end with subdivision plans. The Planning
Commission is after us on meetings, so they would always be a month
behind us.
Dennis Henry: Two months. What we instituted last year was a briefing
session in front of the planning commission and then it goes for action the
next month if everything has been met by the applicant. There is a two
month lag before it gets to a point where it gets in front of the board.
Something else we need to work on, you never see a preliminary plan.
The plan that gets to you is the final plan. It has to go to the PC for the
briefing of the preliminary plan, action on preliminary plan, a briefing,
action on the preliminary plan and a response back to the PC and then it
can be approved as an unconditional approved plan, and then they can
submit the final plan and then going through the same process before it
comes to this board.
Comm. Steele: The motion you made is to have the CD available on
Friday.
Comm. Silberstein: The motion is to have the CD available on Friday
with the packets.
Comm. Knepper: When I took this seat I committed myself at that point
the Sunday and the Monday night before the Tuesday night that I would
spend reading and research. If I am out Sunday night and not available
February 12, 2008
Page 13
then I take off work Monday to complete that process so I am prepared for
Tuesday night. That‟s the commitment that I made. I don‟t know what
level of hardship that really creates on people to meet your request.
Comm. Silberstein: I‟m just saying that I can do this job just as efficiently
or more efficiently if the information is available to go on my computer
rather than a piece of paper.
Comm. Knepper: Do you see a day advancement becoming an issue?
Dennis Henry: Not on the CD, but maybe with other issues. I think
physically it is not being put in the packet by Friday, we can overcome
that. It‟s an appropriation of time and getting it done a day earlier.
Comm. Knepper: Would you agree with that Elizabeth?
Elizabeth Heathcote: No. I don‟t think I can commit to getting it done
every Friday.
Comm. Silberstein: As a reasonable person, if someone is out sick and it
can‟t get done, I understand that. I don‟t believe that‟s going to be the
norm. My understanding talking with Gary there are plans to get some of
this on the web so the commissioners will be able to access via a password
secured web site. Maybe what my motion should be is to direct the
township manager to make best efforts to have the CD available with the
packets on Friday afternoons.
The amendment of the motion failed for lack of a second.
Comm. Steele: The motion is to have the CD with the packet on Friday.
Vote 3 yes, 1 no (Knepper).
ZHB
Decisions Included in this massive amount of paperwork received are minutes from
W&S, PC, Rec Board, we are sorely lacking for information from the
ZHB. I don‟t understand why and I would like to request or make a
motion that the minutes and decisions/findings of fact that are prepared for
the ZHB be included in the BOC packet on a monthly basis.
Comm. Ness: Second. My experience has been is that we do receive
them. We end up getting them in our baskets every so often. It‟s not been
that we didn‟t receive them in our packet. I think that‟s because the
February 12, 2008
Page 14
timing, they meet the last week and there‟s a couple of weeks between
meetings.
Comm. Silberstein: Regardless if they are a week behind or a month and a
week behind to be part of the record that we are receiving and to be part of
the CD would be beneficial to me. When they are available.
Comm. Steele: I‟ve been receiving them as a hard copy in my basket. But
that‟s not what you are asking, you are asking that they be part of the CD.
Vote 3 yes, 1 no (Steele)
Comm. Knepper: I understand that this will make more work for
somebody. And every time we add more work to somebody there‟s less
time for somebody to do something else.
Comm. Silberstein: Hopefully the volunteers will be able to assist in this
copying.
Crossway
Drive I received a letter from a resident that wanted it read into the record
regarding the property behind Maaco.
Comm. Steele: Wouldn‟t it be more appropriate in the engineer‟s agenda,
that‟s where it will come up.
Comm.
Knepper When you travel out Leader Hts. Road and you get to Associates Drive,
the sign points north, what is the road to the south?
Scott DePoe: Crossway. That‟s the road that PennDOT made and gave to
us but still have not given us the paperwork. It was Crossway off Keyway
and when PennDOT extended it we determined it would be Crossway as
well. We will put a sign up.
Stormwater
Wednesday (the week before) we had 2” of rain that day. I put on raingear
and my first stop was behind the Methodist Church in Yoe. I wanted to
see what the worst case scenario of Mill Creek was at that point, I found it
to be an incredibly fast rushing water, very much polluted. So I went
upstream. The first development was the Paddock. The Paddock had less
water running off there than what would come through a 4” pipe,
somewhat muddy, but whatever stormwater is in place there is working. It
is not contributing to Yoe‟s issues at all.
February 12, 2008
Page 15
The next stop up the creek was Equine Meadows. Equine Meadows had
more water coming out of there, but not a lot of water, the water was
crystal clear coming out of there. It didn‟t add to the pollution, but added
a little bit to the volume. Their stormwater retention is working there as
well.
Next stop was Carriage Crossing. Their stormwater basin is working as
well. There‟s no pollution coming out of that development either.
I ran into Dana Shearer, who is Yoe Borough Highway Maintenance. It
turned out he was following me around to see what I was doing, but didn‟t
know it at the time. We stopped at the retention pond along Springwood
Road and talked about it a little bit. I gave to him what my observation
was of the stormwater issues from York Township‟s developments. That
they are not contributing to the stormwater issues in Yoe. He agreed to
that as well. Next time Yoe comes before York Township to address this
issue, I would encourage you to invite me to the table as well. I don‟t
think they have a very valid concern whatsoever.
Sage Hill
Road
Realignment What is the status?
Dennis Henry: CBW Road. The current situation is that the consultants
office is still dealing with PennDOT and DEP to provide the information
that PennDOT needs to release that part of the permit. They are dealing
with wetlands remediation and some other issues which are being sought
to be resolved. The last comment I got was that they did meet in
Harrisburg with the DEP representatives and are getting ready to pass all
of the information back to PennDOT. Once that happens that will help to
get the release on the environmental situation. Also Met-Ed and Verizon
are working on pole relocations. There are some dealings with some of
the property owners along there to establish rights of way. I asked the
consulting engineer to follow up on that to make sure that every one they
talked to is kept up to speed on the pole relocation. That‟s holding up the
permit issuance. They have an August 1st deadline that they are suppose
to have this permit in hand and if they don‟t have it by that time they have
to come back to the BOC to get an extension of time. It‟s being held up in
these agencies, and that‟s not always a good thing. It takes time to get it
through.
February 12, 2008
Page 16
Yoe
Stormwater Comm. Knepper: One thing I failed to mention when I was talking about
the Yoe stormwater issue was to recognize township engineering.
Obviously what you have done is working there and working quite well
under extreme conditions.
Comm. Ness: What the issue Yoe is making is that the stormwater basin
is filled up. They are not complaining about the water running into it.
Comm. Knepper: My comment to clarify….the sediment that you are
seeing in the stormwater basin is not coming from those developments as
was claimed by Yoe Borough.
Comm. Ness: I won‟t argue that with you. The money they were looking
for was to clean out the basin now.
Comm. Knepper: I know where the mud is coming from. It‟s not coming
from York Township‟s developments. I did follow it up to find out where
it‟s coming from.
Comm.
Steele Last month I mentioned the 2008 budget for the ZHB legal expense, and
please recall that discussion because the amount in the budget for 2008
was $40,000. It was very similar to the amount for the planned cost for
the township solicitor for administration. We asked the staff to review the
actual costs for zoning for several years and provide documentation to the
board members. Each of you should have received a package. I‟m not
asking for any action, except I think each of us should review it and talk
about it and take action if necessary.
Interviews: We have interviews for potential members for the ZHB. We
need one member for the ZHB, two alternates for ZHB, one for W&S
Authority, one for Recreation Board and two openings on Environmental
Advisory Council.
NIMS: You received information regarding training class for elected
officials. Three of the commissioners have completed two of the courses:
Comm. Ness, Knepper, Steele.
February 12, 2008
Page 17
HEARING OFFICER
Comm. Steele: I asked you to think about a hearing officer, if we need to
hire a hearing officer and if you do a name you might suggest. We can
contact or interview to see if they would be interested in serving as a
hearing officer for the Heritage Hills TND. The only name that I have
come up with is Attorney John Herrold.
Comm. Ness: I took the information that we received. I‟m going to put
this together for the audience as well as my fellow commissioners because
we are talking about tax payer money. I took the non-reimbursable
expenses for 2007. What I did if you look at the 3rd line of P&Z, Mr.
Hovis please don‟t get upset, this is the legal cost of Stock and Leader and
on the bottom I have the legal costs of CGA. On the 3rd line down are
P&Z, in Planning and Zoning we spent $10,365 and right next to that I
have a figure of $4640 and a BW beside that. BW is Bridgewater
hearings. I went through the minutes and I wrote down how many
minutes it took to do the Bridgewater hearings, it took us approximately
28 hours and 30 minutes, and that was, no offense Mr. Hovis, that‟s how
long the meetings took. This is not to point out that anybody is doing
anything wrong, it is just the costs.
That was the meetings we started out in January and the last one was
there, and this was me setting down and reading through the minutes to
see how long it took. And again, Mr. Hovis, no offense, that‟s what our
bill would have been. Go back to the non reimbursable expenses you go
down to the bottom of the sheet, CGA started out with Zoning Hearing in
February at $3304 and goes down through at the end is $20411. In a
general fund budget, I took the general fund budget for 2006, 2007 and
2008 and in the administrative part of that budget what we did was have a
legal expense for solicitor, it was a one line item in 2006 and 2007. In
2008 which is our next year we are in right now, what has happened is we
have split it out between administrative, codes, planning, zoning,
engineering, public works and recreation. There‟s nothing wrong in what
we did. Nobody has done anything wrong. The point is you can see
where all the money is going for legal expenses. To put it together for you
on the totals it says $8600BW at the end. It was $60,000 for non -
reimbursable expenses, that‟s basically for 10 months and totals, and what
I did on that total line, I have a negative $4828 and another negative $63
and that was a guess because I didn‟t have those particular months. We
spent about $75000 for legal fees plus the $20000 for the ZHB.
February 12, 2008
Page 18
If you go through and look at the MPC, it is specific what the ZH has for
finances and expenditures. Section 617.3 says the governing body shall
make provisions in its budget for the operation of the zoning hearing
board. We do that as a matter of course. I feel it should be separate. If
you look up here planning and zoning, planning and zoning shares the
same thing, they have shared for the past year. Technically they shouldn‟t
have. Planning shouldn‟t be stuck in with engineering costs, zoning
should sit by itself.
I‟m using this as a guide to help us on this hearing officer. It says in
finances and expenditures, it tells what the hearing board can spend their
money on how they are suppose to set everything up. Basically what it
says here, the compensation of legal counsel, experts and staff, and the
sums expended for services shall not exceed the amount appropriated by
the governing body for this use. What we are suppose to do whenever we
go through budget, and I missed this, we are to set up an amount of money
to spend on ZHB and actually when we look at this hearing officer
situation we should be doing the same thing. We should be setting up a
line item thing, and say this is the amount we anticipate on spending and
set aside and keep within budget.
To go back to the Bridgewater paper, what really caught my eye, I was at
that hearing with Mr. Kaplin and he said we only did 8 hours of hearings
and I knew that was wrong. I went back and checked and we did 28 hours
of hearing. We need counsel there for 28 hours. I will admit that
Bridgewater was fairly large, but 28 hours brings a lot of money. As I
read the MPC, and correct me if I am wrong Mr. Hovis, a legal cost of
things of this nature, really the municipality has to provide that. You can‟t
do it with fees, as I understand it. Is that correct?
We can‟t come out and say that we‟re going to charge $15,000 for an
application fee?
Solicitor Hovis: That‟s right.
Comm. Ness: I think we did a good thing in the budget this year where
we split up the legal expenses for the various items, but they are all under
administration. I think those legal fees should go to planning, zoning,
whatever. I‟m talking about making it a line item.
February 12, 2008
Page 19
Comm. Silberstein: It was my understanding that when the budget was
done this year that things that were lumped together we were trying to
separate into departments or into line items and it has taken Fred some
time to sort out which ones were lumped together. I believe in 2008, and
part of the reason it jumped out at Mr. Steele that things that had been
lumped together are now separated out into individual line items.
Comm. Ness: Basically that‟s what I‟m saying, this is giving a little
background as to what the problem is. Unfortunately in today‟s world we
spend a lot of money on legal representation. I am basically making a
case for, we are going to have to make line items for TNDs they are going
to be expensive. After I figured out how this TND really works now, we
really go through a sketch plan, and really we have done a sketch plan and
a conditional use on the TND, we haven‟t done a preliminary plan or a
final plan. You are looking at a lot of hours particularly on Bridgewater.
We are going to spend a lot of hours on that, more than a sketch plan. We
already know we spent 28 hours on a sketch plan.
Do we need a hearing officer for only the conditional use hearings, or do
we need them for the preliminary and final plan as well. No one has
entertained that question. Is it going to be run as a hearing or run as the
normal part of the meeting?
Solicitor Hovis: I don‟t believe that the MPC provides for hearing officer
as part of the land development plan review process, it does for the
conditional use.
Comm. Ness: Am I to understand you to say that the preliminary hearing
and final hearing for TND will be done like normal in our normal
meeting?
Solicitor Hovis: Once you have the conditional use decision, let‟s say it‟s
a favorable decision and they can move to the next step. Let‟s say there
were no appeals on the Bridgewater decision, at that point they would
proceed to the land development stage, and that plan would be processed
like any other plan in the township.
Comm. Ness: They would come before us in a regular meeting. We
would run it as the board of commissioners? We wouldn‟t need a hearing
officer? We are only looking to utilize a hearing officer to run the
conditional use hearing?
Solicitor Hovis: Yes.
February 12, 2008
Page 20
Comm. Ness: That‟s what I‟m trying to point out to you. It‟s going to be
expensive. I don‟t believe that we budgeted for that.
Comm. Steele: We did not.
Solicitor Hovis: The figure you showed for hours, if you had a hearing
officer, I would suggest that you double that. The hearing officer, in my
opinion, will probably charge more than their normal hourly rate since it is
a special assignment, not just general solicitor work. They would also
charge you for review time, going through the application, going through
exhibits, prepare memos to the board, also the travel time. Doubling it is
probably conservative.
Comm. Silberstein: With the hearing officer, it‟s sort of my understanding
that the hearing officer would conduct the hearing and they would make a
report and recommendations to the commissioners, and the commissioners
would not necessarily be at the hearings?
Solicitor Hovis: You can do it either way. Typically when there‟s been a
hearing officer in situations that I‟ve been aware, almost all the time the
governing body has been there. I‟ll go back to Bridgewater and all the
staff reports that came in, it‟s my experience that the governing body
wanted to hear the testimony and really understand what was going on. I
find it hard to believe that the five commissioners are going to be able to
say „I don‟t want to hear a word, I don‟t want to see a plan, if you want a
hearing officer you come back with an answer and we‟ll say yes or no‟, I
don‟t see that happening.
Comm. Steele: Here is the original question: Comm. Briddell acted as the
hearing officer for Bridgewater. I‟m trying to act as the hearing officer for
StoneBridge. I‟ll tell you up front, I‟m not a hearing officer. I don‟t have
the background to be a hearing officer. Do any of you feel that you have
the background to be a hearing officer? That‟s the reason I asked the
question. Do we want to hire a hearing officer to conduct the hearing, or
are we going to continue doing business as we the board. A hearing
officer would have to be assigned to the next TND, Heritage Hills. We
could be in an interesting situation. I‟m telling you I am not a hearing
officer. I don‟t necessarily want to do it, and I feel that if we are going to
do it as a board that one of you three, that you are going to be one of the
ones that are going to do it.
February 12, 2008
Page 21
Do we want to do it, hire a hearing officer? What Comm. Ness has
prepared here sort of gives us a hint of how much money was involved
with legal services just for Bridgewater. I think that‟s the point of this.
Comm. Silberstein: And the point would be that the legal services for
Bridgewater aren‟t even close to being done yet.
Comm. Steele: And there‟s going to be more money stacked up on top of
this. Do we, since one of our members is missing, maybe we want to
defer this to tomorrow night?
Comm. Silberstein: I would move that we table until Comm. Briddell is
present.
Comm. Knepper: Second
Vote 4 yes.
Comm. Silberstein: If we were to hire a hearing officer would it be your
opinion that we would also have a solicitor representing us at that same
meeting?
Solicitor Hovis: Typically that is the case. The hearing officer is not
providing legal advice to the board, but to run the hearing.
Comm. Ness: No offense Steve, but you might be optional.
Comm. Silberstein: Could the solicitor that is providing the advice to the
board also be the hearing officer?
Solicitor Hovis: The MPC talks about an independent attorney. When it
refers to that it reflects that it is independent of providing advice. I think
you could appoint me and at that point I‟m acting not as your solicitor but
as an independent hearing officer. I would not recommend that because
there are too many issues that come up.
Sidewalks
Peoples
Bank Ron Swift representing Peoples Bank. All of the board members visited
the site on Leader Heights Road. On motion of Comm. Silberstein the
board will accept the $30,000 in lieu of sidewalks on Pine Grove Road
over a 3 year period ($10,000 for 3 years) and have the bank do the
modifications on Southfield Drive entrance way and Pine Grove Road, the
February 12, 2008
Page 22
township will install the signs and crosswalks, and the money received
would be put into the capital reserve fund for sidewalks and intersection
improvements for pedestrian crossings. The sidewalks would be installed
within 6 months. Seconded by Comm. Ness. Vote 4 yes. The
staff/solicitor will create a letter to the bank regarding the motion so there
is no misunderstanding.
Hidden
Lakes Represented by Phil Robinson. Mr. Robinson advised that they are ready
to move forward with hearings, we have been doing some restructuring on
the project, ownership and that‟s pretty much completed. Everything is
still on track with the property owners. I guess we are looking for direction
as to when you want to start hearings.
Solicitor Hovis: Has your plan changed since submittal?
Phil Robinson: No.
Solicitor Hovis: Has the application changed?
Phil Robinson: The applicant is staying on, but there will be other
investors involved.
Comm. Ness: Have you filed an application?
Phil Robinson: Yes. We went through the approval process right up to
the…..
Comm. Ness: Did you sign a paper for an extended time? Is it indefinite?
Solicitor Hovis: Yes. They can trigger it to be concluded.
Comm. Ness: I don‟t see why you can‟t continue if you didn‟t make any
changes.
Comm. Steele: Have you presented your plan to the Planning
Commission?
Phil Robinson: Yes, we have been through the planning commission and
have recommendations for approval probably a year ago. We have been
through all the staff meetings, so we are at that point…
February 12, 2008
Page 23
Comm. Steele: And the plan you showed the planning commission and
that you will show the board or hearing officer will be the same plan?
Phil Robinson: Absolutely the same plan, nothing has been changed.
Comm. Silberstein: Is there a report or a recommendation from the
planning commission to the board of commissioners?
Comm. Steele: I don‟t know the answer to that. That becomes a task for
staff to go back and trace this and see where it is. With agreement of the
board I will ask the staff to give us an update on Hidden Lakes
documentation, drawings and planning commission report.
TOWNSHIP MANAGER
Rezoning
M&G On motion of Comm. Knepper, seconded by Comm. Silberstein the BOC
will hold a hearing on the request to rezone property located at 2719 S
Queen Street (M&G Mobile Home Park) from RH-9 (high density
residential) to C-S (commercial shopping). Vote 4 yes.
Moose
Lodge On motion of Comm. Knepper, seconded by Comm. Steele the BOC will
hold a hearing on the request to rezone property located at 970 Cape Horn
Road (Moose Lodge) from RL-3 (low density residential) to O-P (office
professional). Vote 4 yes.
Karen
Atkinson On motion of Comm. Ness, seconded by Comm. Knepper, Karen
Atkinson was reappointed to the Water and Sewer Authority for a term to
expire December 2012. Vote 4 yes.
Robert
Holweck On motion of Comm. Ness, seconded by Comm. Silberstein, Robert
Holweck was reappointed to the EAC for a term to expire December 2008.
Vote 4 yes.
Appeals
Board On motion of Comm. Ness, seconded by Comm. Knepper, the York
Township Board of Appeals will disband and we will enter into an
agreement with the York County Uniform Construction Code Board of
Appeals. Vote 4 yes.
February 12, 2008
Page 24
Ag
Security The BOC will hold a public hearing on the request for the Brant and
Bradley properties to be included in the Ag Security program of York
Township at the March 11th meeting.
Rain
Barrel Jeff Sholley and Bob Miller are working with American Rivers‟ Healthy
Water Campaign to purchase rain barrels. We would sell them to the
residents for $10 and non residents for $61. They would be used in urban
areas, this could make a major impact in those areas. We are looking to
buy 1560 initially. We talked to the conservation district and other areas,
and they are converting trash cans to rain barrels and they can‟t keep up
with the demand. Every time they schedule the sales, people line up for
barrels.
Dennis Henry: This program will go a long way in another program, our
MS4 status with DEP. It helps to reduce and control runoff from existing
neighborhoods that do not have stormwater management at this time. We
will use it as another feature to report back to DEP as part of the MS4
program.
Jeff Sholley: We also have developers coming in here that need
stormwater BMPs for post construction stormwater management plans.
We are looking at charging them a little bit more they can purchase them
more readily, that will encourage them to use them on new developments
as well. We are reducing the volume and peaks of our stormwater this
way. There is a second feature to the grant which would be some
retrofitting at some of our inlets. There are some devices we can put on
there to improve the water quality.
They have a screened top. What we like about this barrel, it has a built in
spot to put your rain spout right into, and a spigot on it. It‟s ready to go,
as opposed to an assembly kit.
PUBLIC WORKS
Trench
Roller On motion of Comm. Knepper, seconded by Comm. Ness, the board
authorized the purchase of the trench roller/compaction equipment as
identified in the 2008 budget. Vote 4 yes.
February 12, 2008
Page 25
Recycling
Grant On motion of Comm. Ness, seconded by Comm. Silberstein the board
approved the agreement with DEP accepting the terms and conditions of
the grant funds for the purchase of the leaf collecting equipment. Vote 4
yes.
Scott DePoe thanked Gary Miller and Bob Miller for their initial legwork
on the grant application.
Bridge
T 201 Scott DePoe advised that Jeff Sholley completed the general permit
application and will be submitting to DEP. Material procurement will be
initiated during the next several weeks. The intent is to complete all
preliminary matters in order to close the bridge/road as soon as the
Dallastown Area School District lets out for the summer (week of June 16,
2008). Anticipate that Honey Valley Road will be closed most of the
summer while the bridge is being rebuilt.
RECREATION
Stump
Park The recreation board interviewed the two firms that responded to the
request for a consultant for the Stump Park land development plan. The
rec board is selecting JMT as the consultant. The contract will be
reviewed by the solicitor.
2008
DCNR
Grant On motion of Comm. Silberstein, seconded by Comm. Knepper, the board
approved the Recreation Commission to proceed with an acquisition grant
application through DCNR to assist with the purchase of the trolley line
that runs from York Township Park to the York Township Municipal
Campus. Vote 4 yes.
2007
Senior
Egg
Hunt For the 2nd year in a row the Pennsylvania Recreation and Parks Society
has awarded the township an award for one of our senior activities. We
partnered with Country Meadows and had scheduled an egg hunt, but the
weather caused us to move inside and do crafts. We are going to widen
this year and Monica has already contacted the nursing homes so they can
February 12, 2008
Page 26
bring their residents. We will be going to State College in March to
accept the award.
Comm. Steele: Congratulations to Monica and staff for the award!
ENGINEER‟S AGENDA
170 Crossway
LD07-3-1 Plan presented by Jason Brenneman, James Holley & Associates.
Dennis Henry: There was a concern last month on the buffering.
Jason Brenneman: We have met with the neighbors to the south, south
east and east on site. We will locate the fence along the 3‟ berm at
minimum along the southern property line and southeastern corner, which
does show up on the plan submitted. We have extended the fence along
the entire eastern property line that would be 6‟ high. We did add the
fence along the eastern property line. As far as the western side, Mr.
Steiner had requested that we show a small portion of the fence extended
along the western property line, the plan that you have tonight shows the
fence extending three parking spots along the west side, since that plan has
been submitted there‟s been further discussion and we are agreeing to
extend the fence an additional 70‟, we are waiting for a letter from Mr.
Steiner on that condition.
I guess the other issue is the landscaping inside the fence. The ordinance
requires 15% of the required landscaping would be planted on our side of
the fence and I guess I‟m asking that in the northeastern corner there are a
lot of trees being saved and the fence would be installed in those trees and
we are asking for credit, if we can take credit for those existing trees for
the 15% additional landscaping.
Comm. Knepper: Is it correct that waivers 3, 4 and 5 have been
withdrawn?
Jason Brenneman: Yes.
Comm. Knepper: It is my opinion the fence is the total discretion of the
developer if he chooses to put a fence there.
Ed Steiner: I‟m the southern property adjoiner. As part of this overall
plan we have been going through for a long time, we come to an
agreement, the property owners and the builder come to an agreement for
February 12, 2008
Page 27
a fence along the east side, south side and part way up the west side. I
request that anything you approve include that fence. If you give them an
option to the fence, I totally disagree with you.
Comm. Knepper: Our SALDO and zoning ordinance does not require the
fencing. It is the sole discretion of the developer to modify the plan to
approve that with the property owners.
Comm. Silberstein: Am I mistaken, isn‟t the fence part of this final land
development plan which is on the table now?
Dennis Henry: Yes it is part of the plan. I think Comm. Knepper‟s point
was that this board didn‟t require it, but it is part of the zoning ordinance
that it‟s an option that they have to do. With your approval of this plan,
you‟re accepting the fact they are going to put the fence up. That‟s the
way it‟s going to be built.
Comm. Knepper: I understood that when I made my comments. You‟re
safe to assume that the fence will be installed, because it is part of the land
development we are going to approve.
Comm. Silberstein: I received correspondence from Chantel Sakay, and
it‟s a lengthy letter, which I believe everyone has a copy of. She requested
that I read this into the record. I don‟t know that‟s totally necessary as
long as it‟s noted that it‟s here.
Solicitor Hovis: You are asking for it to be part of the record?
Comm. Silberstein: Mr. Steiner, are the concerns relative to the security
of the driveway has that been resolved? That seemed to be an open issue
in this letter from Ms. Sakay.
Mr. Steiner: During the discussion we had with Mr. Holley, we made a
recommendation that there be some kind of controlled entrance gate. That
would be nice and I think it would be desirable from his standpoint after
hours to have the main access some kind of card or key control to keep
people out of this area after dark. That‟s not something we are going to
get real hard over. That‟s another thing that you would have to approve to
have some kind of gate.
Comm. Silberstein: I don‟t believe we would have to approve that. If you
and the land owner are working on that, I think we can stay out of it.
February 12, 2008
Page 28
Comm. Knepper: What is your concern? It is a place of business.
Mr. Steiner: We have woods, lot of traffic through here with kids,
Tuscarora, we have a lot of traffic come over here at night. It‟s a cul-de-
sac, young people come here and park. We would prefer not to have
young people come up here and park at night.
Comm. Knepper: Would this be a 24 hour parking lot?
Mr. Steiner: No. This parking lot is going to be dark at night. If there is
free access up this road it‟s not going to be long before we have a lot of
people know that.
Dennis Henry: The ordinance requires security lighting at night, but if it‟s
on it poses a problem for the residents at night. You turn the lights off and
the residents have the darkness, but you don‟t have the security lighting to
protect it from protrusion. Lighting downward and inward would present
a glow. It may not be intrusive outside the premises. We require
shielding on the lights, but the reflective glow would be an annoyance.
Comm. Steele: The comment about the fence, so that I‟m clear on what
you said. The plan shows a fence, but our motion does not put a condition
on the fence. It‟s an agreement between the land owner and the citizens,
it‟s not an agreement between the land owner and the board. It is that it‟s
on the plan, but we are not the fence police.
Mr. Steiner: If you are going to approve the plan, how can you say that it
clearly shows a fence, how are you going to say it‟s an option.
Comm. Steele: I didn‟t say that. It‟s on the plan. What he‟s saying it is
not a condition of the township to put the fence on the plan, it‟s agreed
between the citizens and land owner.
Jason Brenneman: Is the landscaping inside the fence sufficient?
Comm. Knepper: I saw what looks like stakes on the property, is that
where the fence will be installed? Mr. Steiner, do you own part of that
wooded area?
Mr. Steiner: It varies. Part of the woods comes down here. My back
yard, there‟s a fence around my swimming pool. As far as the woods back
here on my side, it‟s very small. I think you are talking about are the trees
on this property, on 170 Crossway.
February 12, 2008
Page 29
Jason Brenneman: We are required to put 15% of the required buffer yard
plantings on this side of the fence. This office building is looking at some
plantings. We are installing the fence through the trees and 20‟ of trees are
being saved. All I‟m asking for is credit of those trees to act as the 15%,
that we don‟t have to plant additional trees around this open area.
Dennis Henry: I don‟t have a problem if the board is okay with that. The
ordinance does say that the 15% is to be on the inside of the fence, which
is on their parking lot side. That vegetation isn‟t going to enhance the
adjoining property owners.
Comm. Knepper: I don‟t understand how the property owners could ask
for a built in buffer more than what is there.
Dennis Henry: I think with the tree line and fence they are more than
meeting the intent for the buffering. If they are using existing trees, that
has been used in the past, we have allowed old trees to be supplemented
with new trees. They need to ask for that to be waived and then you have
to make a motion on waiving that requirement, because they are using the
existing trees as the 15%. It‟s a modification of that section of the existing
trees to be the 15% of the landscaping that they are required to have on the
inside of the fence.
Comm. Steele: We know that this parking lot is proposed to be pervious
concrete. I have in my possession a booklet on pervious concrete if
anybody wants to read it. It‟s a very interesting topic. The one thing that
worried me when I read this it talks about sloped pavements because on a
slope pavement all of the water that goes through the concrete will go to
one side.
Dennis Henry: We had an issue with that also. What they‟ve done is
flattened the bottom of the stone aggregate underneath the paving, so it‟s
following the contour of the land, not ponding in the base of that material.
Comm. Steele: The permeability of this is about 3 gallons per square foot
per minute is how much water will go through this. That‟s a lot. I‟m
going to hand this to Elizabeth and if anyone wants to read it, it will be
here at the township. When you are reading this be sure you read the
section on freeze and thaw resistance because of all the voids are in it that
fills up with water, snow melts, it‟s a worry.
February 12, 2008
Page 30
Comm. Silberstein: My concern is we are approving this, and if there is
something in this manual that you are aware of, I tend to defer to the
engineering types, which I am not..
Comm. Steele: This booklet didn‟t scare me when I read it. As a matter
of fact it kind of excited me because I didn‟t know anything about
pervious concrete. There‟s nothing in our ordinance that allows anybody
to build parking lots with pervious concrete.
Comm. Silberstein: We are allowing it as part of this plan. My question,
and I have to rely on you……..
Comm. Steele: It didn‟t scare me. I would say you can‟t go to „Concrete
R Us‟ and get material that will do that. You‟ve got to know who you are
dealing with.
Dennis Henry: We had issues with it in the beginning, we went through a
lot, on site inspection, got information from people who have been
educated in putting this in, we did a lot of research. There are some
problems, but they have addressed those. If it doesn‟t work they have
agreed to replace it. It is noted on the plan and will be in the development
agreement.
Solicitor Hovis: Even without the note, the plan is based on the fact that it
is going to be calculated as pervious surface not impervious. If it turns to
impervious as a result of failing to maintain, they are not maintaining it in
accordance with their plan.
Comm. Ness: If they have to take it out and can‟t meet the dimensions
would they have to come back?
Solicitor Hovis: Yes.
Comm. Ness: Sounds like we would be listening to a hardship case.
Solicitor Hovis: If this fails they will have to replace with impervious
concrete and provide the necessary calculations.
Dennis Henry: The main thing is sweeping, they have to keep it clean.
The failure part is if they don‟t get a proper pour. If you get a freeze thaw
situation it will start to break up. If it‟s placed properly it will be resistant
to that. When I talk about a failure, that‟s the failure. It‟s the failure of
the physical concrete.
February 12, 2008
Page 31
Mr. Warner: I own the land to the east. Do I understand that the
document you are going to sign will include the fence?
Comm. Silberstein: Yes.
Mr. Pullo: I‟ve just been informed, because things seem to be changing
on us from the last meeting. I want to be assured that the fence is going to
be required in this motion being made, it has left me confused. Can you
tell me that the plan is going to require the fence?
Comm. Steele: It is on the plan. What Comm. Knepper said was that it
was not a condition of approval of this board to demand a fence. We
didn‟t demand a fence, but it‟s on the plan and that‟s what is being
approved.
Mr. Pullo: Why wouldn‟t you require the fence as a condition, that‟s the
way it has been discussed and presented, that‟s the way you tabled the
item in favor of an agreement amongst the developer and the neighbors.
Why abandon the condition?
Dennis Henry: I think you are using the wrong term. Comm. Knepper, tell
me if I‟m wrong, but I think your purpose in making that statement was to
say that this board didn‟t influence them to put the fence there. It is a
condition of the plan, but wasn‟t being required by this board, but now
that it is a condition the plan is being approved as that being a condition of
the plan. Is that correct or not?
Comm. Knepper: True, it can‟t be required because it‟s not in the
SALDO, it‟s not part of it, it can‟t be demanded of us, although they have
included it as part of their plan approval, therefore it will be done.
Mr. Steiner: Can you add those very last words to your motion? The
board doesn‟t require the fence, however, because the fence is on the plan
we approve the plan.
Mr. Pullo: Gentlemen, help us here. We have been organizing, working
and cooperating for over a year on this plan and we want some help on the
buffer….
Comm. Silberstein: I believe that you guys have exactly what you have
asked for in the motion being presented to this board and the plan that is
being approved includes the fence and the buffer as you and Mr. Holley
have agreed to it. All Mr. Knepper was saying that this board cannot
February 12, 2008
Page 32
require, Mr. Holley agreed to do that, but he did and the board in this case
doesn‟t have to condition the approval of this plan on Mr. Holley doing
these things. He has already agreed to it and it is being shown on the plan
now, it includes what you want.
Mr. Pullo: I‟m struck by all of the past meetings and other boards, of
which you were a part of, and I appreciate your leadership there. Every
plan that we looked at and heard about, understand we don‟t do this
everyday, every plan that was ever presented an attorney or someone stood
up and said yes it‟s on the plan but that may change. I want to get an
assurance that what‟s on that plan is exactly what‟s going to be built, that
they can‟t pull that later in favoring of amending it or changing it.
Comm. Steele: I don‟t know how many different ways we can say this, if
we approve the plan with the fence, it‟s on the plan. What else can we
say?
Solicitor Hovis: The assurance you may want is a private agreement
between you and the developer, that‟s the assurance. That would be the
guarantee that you have the ability to step in and say you have got to build
the fence. You negotiated the deal and if you want to enforce that deal get
a signed agreement between the developer and yourself that says they
have to do this.
Mr. Pullo: I guess that guidance would have been appreciated last month.
As you do this, require the agreement in writing and we will hammer out
the agreement between Mr. Holley and the neighbors. What if he refuses
to put it in an agreement?
Comm. Silberstein: He cannot build this project right now, if we approve
this plan he cannot build it without coming back here without additional
approvals without putting the fence in.
Dennis Henry: There will be surety posted. Before we issue a certificate
of use, that surety will be in place and won‟t be released until the fence is
in place.
February 12, 2008
Page 33
On motion of Comm. Knepper, seconded by Comm. Ness the plan was
approved with the following conditions or modifications:
1. All comments on the letter from Dennis Henry dated February 8, 2008
shall be met.
2. Waivers granted for:
a. §603.C.2 curbs to be installed and constructed to the dimensions
and construction standards of the township, or to the standards of
PennDOT Publication 408. Six (6) inch reveal to be installed instead of 8
inch.
b. §603.A.9 requires that all parking compounds be paved to meet
the minimum specifications. Applicant using pervious concrete pavement
in parking lot.
c. §609.A.6.e. 15% of the landscaping will be the existing trees on
the inside of the fence.
3. The York Township Engineering Department shall receive an
electronic file prior to recording.
4. A check in the amount to be determined by the Assessment Office and
Recorder of Deeds Office must be received by the York Township
Engineering Department prior to recording.
5. All invoices to be paid prior to recording.
Vote 4 yes.
Stein Hill On motion of Comm. Silberstein, seconded by Comm. Knepper the Stein
Hill Estates waiver requests were tabled until March. Vote 4 yes.
Paul &
Grace
Knepper Comm. Knepper recused himself, and the conflict of interest form is
attached to the minutes.
On motion of Comm. Silberstein, seconded by Comm. Ness the following
waivers were approved for Paul and Grace Knepper:
a. 603.B installation of sidewalks with 6 months statement on plan
February 12, 2008
Page 34
b. 603.C installation of curbs with 6 months statement on plan
c. 602.A(7) installation of road improvements with 6 month statement on
plan
d. 305 preliminary plan
e. 402.E(3) Hydrologic report to be submitted with final plan
f. 402.E(3)c traffic evaluation report with note to be required on plan:
“The development of a single family dwelling will generate one peak PM
hour vehicle trip per day. A traffic impact fee of $1069.00 will be
required to be paid to York Township at time of application for each
building permit.”
Vote 3 yes, with Comm. Knepper abstaining.
TTMT
P06-5-2 On motion of Comm. Silberstein, seconded by Comm. Knepper the board
will credit the traffic impact fees to be applied to Cape Horn Road
northbound left turn lane and Belle Road eastbound left turn lane
construction. Vote 4 yes.
Southwood
LD06-12-4 On motion of Comm. Knepper, seconded by Comm. Silberstein the board
will credit traffic impact fees to the township‟s portion of roadway
improvements to Locust Hill Road. Vote 4 yes.
Harvest View
P07-7-1 On motion of Comm. Knepper, seconded by Comm. Ness a 90 days time
extension was granted for the Harvest View subdivision plan. Vote 4 yes.
February 12, 2008
Page 35
SOLICITOR‟S AGENDA
Ord. 08-2
Weight
Limit
Honey Valley
Road Bridge
On motion of Comm. Knepper, seconded by Comm. Ness, Ordinance
2008-2 establishing a weight limit on Honey Valley Road Bridge was
approved with the following voice vote:
Comm. Ness Yes
Comm. Knepper Yes
Comm. Silberstein Yes
Comm. Steele Yes
Draft
Ord. On motion of Comm. Knepper, seconded by Comm. Ness Solicitor Hovis
was advised to move forward with the advertising of the ordinance for
removal and filling of receptacle after sewer connection. Vote 4 yes.
Res. 08-3
Senate
Bill 777 A resolution in support of Senate Bill 777, which amends the Municipal
Claims and Tax Liens Law allowing us in the collection of real estate tax
delinquencies to be able to use the Municipal Claims & Tax Liens Act
enforcement provisions instead of relying on the real estate tax sale law.
It‟s basically another weapon at our disposal in collecting real tax
delinquencies. The resolution will be forwarded to our elected
representative. On motion of Comm. Silberstein, seconded by Comm.
Ness Resolution 2008-3 was approved. Vote 4 yes.
Telephone
Conversation Solicitor Hovis: Based on Comm. Ness‟ earlier review of the bills, I‟ll
disclose now I had a telephone conversation today with Comm. Steele
about procedure on the disclosure of an executive session. The newly
elected chair wanted a little advice.
February 12, 2008
Page 36
Bond
Refinancing There is an opportunity for the township to save money based on a
refunding opportunity of the bonds that were issued to finance this
building project. PFM, Brad Remig, made contact with the township late
last week and reviewed a potential funding analysis. Since it was a bond
issue you can refund with a bond issue or a note.
When you do a refunding of bonds there‟s an ability to do a current
refunding or an advance refunding. A current refunding means you have
the right under that bond issue to pay off the bonds within at least 90 days
from the closing of that bond issue. Sometimes a call date on the bonds
may be 5, 6, 7 years out, but you can still save money by advance
refunding by putting money aside in an escrow account and investing that
money and paying off the bonds. You only have one opportunity to do an
advance refunding in the life of the series of bonds.
What is being proposed is a current refunding. You would have the ability
to pay off the funds immediately, you would not be burning that advance
refunding right. Typically when you are talking about a current refunding
you are looking for savings of at least 2%. If you do that analysis, Mr.
Remig indicated that we are at the $125,000 savings mark. If you did the
refunding typically what is requested is you provide the authority to come
back in the future if you can reach that savings bench mark. What PFM
was recommending was that set a bench mark of $125,000 and if they
can‟t bring back a bond issue that saves you that much it never happens.
If the market maintains the good level it‟s at that they would have the
authority at a future board meeting to come back with a bond issue that
you would approve at that time. They would market that to sell the bonds
with anticipation of coming to the March meeting for that bond issue. It‟s
called a parameters resolution that says we hereby authorize the financial
advisor to come back with a resolution if you meet a certain savings
threshold. They can structure the deal that you have the ability to take all
your savings up front. If we save $125,000 that would be a reduction in
your debt service for 2008 and 2009 and out would be at the same level as
it historically was.
Comm. Knepper: Is there a level of risk involved?
Solicitor Hovis: No. If it never gets to the point that it saves you money
they never come back to you and ask for your approval.
Comm. Silberstein: I understand everything you said, but basically I‟m
trying to understand the ramifications of taking this $125,000 up front, in
February 12, 2008
Page 37
some ways robbing Peter to pay Paul. I‟m thinking that I don‟t know if I
want that $125,000 today versus taking it over a period of time. When we
look at the tax structure of the township is on an ongoing basis, unless that
whole $125,000 is going to be put to some use.
Solicitor Hovis: That‟s the time value of money. You probably want to
get it up front because the time value of money says you are going to get
the biggest bang for the buck, if you want to invest it or do something with
it, that‟s fine. You have in your budget now for this bond the debt service
in 2008 of $200,000 and they will structure it so that you pay a $5000
bond this year and therefore you saved $195,000 and next year you
maintain the same debt service payment that you had all along. It is a
$200,000 savings. Or you can do as Ken said and take 50% this year and
50% next year. Some people may say that we have a bridge project and
want to do it this year so we take it now, or another project.
If you want as part of your motion is to say it‟s up to Fred to come back
with a recommendation how to structure the savings, to take it up front or
over two years.
Comm. Silberstein: What‟s in this for PFM?
Solicitor Hovis: They will act as financial advisor. They will get a fee for
their services. They will structure the deal. Typically it‟s an internet
auction they put together, a sale by invitation, they manage an auction,
they bid on that and put the official statement together, which they have to
work with the staff to get the township information.
Comm. Silberstein: What kind of fee do they get?
Solicitor Hovis: I don‟t know. It‟s probably between $10 and $30,000.
Comm. Silberstein: Are there other firms that do this?
Solicitor Hovis: Yes. Independent financial advisors. A lot of them will
be underwriters, we‟ll sell the bonds and negotiate it with you, but we are
not independent. PFM are independent financial advisors, they are not
biding on the deal they are putting together. The are a true independent
firm and will go out and get the best for the township. PMF does a heck of
a good job for their clients.
Comm. Knepper: What is the reason you wouldn‟t do it all at one time?
February 12, 2008
Page 38
Solicitor Hovis: Some want to spread it out over a few years. 95% of the
people do it all in one year.
Comm. Knepper: I think this board has the discipline to do that.
Comm. Steele: It‟s actually money you are not spending. You would
have that money to do something else. Bank reduction, fix a bridge, etc.
Comm. Silberstein: Is this one of those timing things, if we waited 30
days we might find we were saving twice as much money, or find we are
saving no money.
Solicitor Hovis: It‟s a timing thing. We had gone through this back in
October where school districts and municipalities looked at this, they
looked at it and when they came back in a month and it wasn‟t a good
dead. Now the Feds have dropped the rates and they are starting to get the
savings from those deals. A lot of deals put off in the fall are now coming
around and being profitable.
Comm. Silberstein: If we believe Feds fund rates are going to continue to
drop it would behoove us to wait?
Solicitor Hovis: If the funds are going to drop it‟s a short term borrowing,
the short terms are the first and second and third year bonds are getting
lower, but the back end is going up a little bit. Depends on what you have
on the back end of the deal that may be a good strategy or not.
On motion of Comm. Silberstein, seconded by Comm. Knepper the board
agreed to a savings threshold of $125,000 and if that can be reached the
financial advisor would have the authority to bring back to this board a
bond issue for the refunding of the outstanding bonds, (Series 2002)
subject to approval of the board as to where those savings funds will go.
Vote 4 yes.
Comm. Knepper: How did you get that information? This deal, where did
it come from?
Elizabeth Heathcote: Fred and I met with Brad Remig, PFM last week.
Comm. Knepper: Another example of staff looking out for township.
Thank you very much.
February 12, 2008
Page 39
Recess The meeting was recessed at 11:05 p.m to Wednesday, February 13th at
5:00 p.m.
Secretary