TUESDAY_ 6 SEPTEMBER 2005 by yaosaigeng

VIEWS: 11 PAGES: 141

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                     TUESDAY, 6 SEPTEMBER 2005




The House met at 14:02.

House Chairperson Mr G Q M Doidge took the Chair and requested

members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.




The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order! Hon members, before

we proceed with today‘s business, I wish to announce the following

party membership changes, which have occurred as a result of floor-


Mr S Simmons has, on 1 September 2005, left the New National Party

and joined a new party, called the United Party of South Africa.

[Interjections.] Order!
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Mr L M Green has, on 1 September 2005, left the African Christian

Democratic Party and joined a new party, called the Federation of

Democrats. [Interjections.]

The following members have, on 1 September 2005, left the New

National Party and joined the African National Congress: Mr M C J

van Schalkwyk, Mr C H F Greyling, Mr F Beukman, Ms C B Johnson and

Mr J Schippers.

Mr J J M Stevens has, today, left the United Democratic Movement and

joined the Democratic Alliance. [Interjections.]

Mr L K Joubert has, today, left the Inkatha Freedom Party and joined

the Democratic Alliance. [Interjections.] Order!

The following members have, today, left the Inkatha Freedom Party

and joined a new party, called the National Democratic Convention:

Mr M V Ngema, Mr B C Ngiba and Dr G G Woods. [Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I need some

clarity, in relation to this floor-crossing. Can you clarify

something for me, sir?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): I can try, hon Chief Whip.
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The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chair, my understanding is

that there is a pact between the DA and the IFP that they do not

accept members from each other. [Laughter.] This is public knowledge

and it has been publicly stated. Has the nation been misled or what

is happening? Can you please clarify this?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order! Hon Chief Whip, that

is a matter that the Chair would not like to express itself on.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, having granted the

Chief Whip so much latitude, perhaps you will give me a little

latitude as well to say that he is obviously behind the times on

this as on most other things. [Interjections.] There was an

agreement which existed at the time of floor-crossing two years ago,

and more particularly at local government level.

There is a very good relationship which exists between the IFP and

the DA, and in particular between our leaders. That relationship, as

far as we are concerned, will not be disturbed at all. My leader was

in touch with Dr Buthelezi before this happened.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Thank you, Mr Gibson. That

will suffice. [Interjections.] Order, Chief Whip!

                   ACHIEVEMENTS OF DEAFSA IN 2005
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                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move without


  That the House —

  (1) notes that the International Week of Deaf people will be

      celebrated once again from 5 to 11 September 2005;

  (2) recognises that the Deaf Federation of South Africa, DEAFSA,

      would like to make use of this opportunity to ensure that

      South African society is aware of its achievements during the

      past year;

  (3) notes that one of the highlights in 2005 was the registration

      of Unit Standards for South African Sign Language as an

      additional language at the South African Qualifications

      Authority, as well as the pending registration of the Unit

      Standards for SASL Home Language (General Education Training

      and Further Education and Training);

  (4) acknowledges that DEAFSA and the South African Translator‘s

      Institute, SATI, have established a joint accreditation

      process for SASL interpreters to ensure that a quality service

      is delivered;
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  (5)     congratulates DEAFSA on being chosen as the host for the

          first ever International Sign Language Interpreting

          Conference that will meet in the Western Cape from 31 October

          2005 to 2 November 2005; and

        (6) calls on all South Africans to support DEAFSA and ensure

        the success of the conference.


Agreed to.

                          NATIONAL ARBOUR WEEK

                           (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move without


  That the House—

  (1) notes that 1 to 7 September is National Arbour Week;
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  (2) further notes that this week serves as a means to mobilise our

      people and make them aware of the importance of planting and

      preserving indigenous trees for the future of our country;

  (3) recalls the significant role played by trees in stabilising

      topsoil, safeguarding the water table and purifying the air;

  (4) further recalls that indigenous trees are an integral part of

      our ecosystem, providing food and shelter to hundreds of

      animal species; and

  (5) calls on all South Africans to join hands with environmental

      activists in efforts to preserve our indigenous plants for

      future generations.


Agreed to.

                           MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS


                          (Member‘s Statement)

Mr M S MOATSHE (ANC): Chairperson, an unfortunate tendency has

developed within certain sectors of society, through which our
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political leadership is continuously vilified by those who have

political axes to grind with this government. As the ANC we have

confidence in the integrity of Minister Ngconde Balfour, who fully

understands and respects the Constitution of the country and the

recruitment policy of the ANC-led government. Thank you. [Applause.]


                        (Member‘s Statement)

Ms H ZILLE (DA): Chairperson, the ANC is very quick to suggest a

commission of inquiry when it needs to deal with tensions in the

Tripartite Alliance. But it is a different story altogether when

issues of national importance need to be investigated.

The ANC government has consistently dismissed all calls to open a

commission of inquiry into the arms deal and the Oilgate scandals.

Instead, we are treated to whitewashed reports that exonerate the

government of all wrongdoing without interrogating the facts.

The ANC must assure the public that it will not spend taxpayers‘

money on a commission of inquiry into President Mbeki‘s alleged

conspiracy against former Deputy President Zuma. Such an

investigation constitutes a profound misuse of public funds. South

Africans are far more worried about failed service delivery,
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unemployment and corruption than a jockeying for power and position

within the ANC. [Applause.]


                           (Member‘s Statement)

Ms M M SOTYU (ANC): Chairperson, on Sunday, 28 August 2005, a group

of people from the Mangaung community, in Bloemfontein, raised their

concerns about a woman who had allegedly been set alight by her

husband. The community wanted the man not to be granted bail, as

they believed that vigilante actions could take place as a result of

him getting bail.

We called the local police station in Kagisanong, and within three

minutes the police were there. They listened to the community‘s

concerns and addressed the community. The police satisfied the

community to such an extent that they dispersed very happily.

We are proud to inform the House that the suspect has been denied

bail and we would like to congratulate the police in Kagisanong,

particularly Constables Mothethe and Phalatsane from Kagisanong

police station together with Inspector Ramoseli from the flying

squad, who arrested the suspect and we want to thank them for

prompt, quality service.
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This is an example for all police members and stations of the type

of service that we expect in every corner of our country. Together,

and with a positive approach, we will overcome crime in this

country. I thank you. [Applause.]

                        PROBE INTO SABC BIAS

                        (Member‘s Statement)

Ms N C NKABINDE (UDM): Chairperson, the UDM notes with interest the

outcome of the SABC probe into its failure to broadcast footage of

supporters of the former Deputy President jeering the new hon Deputy

President of the country. The incident was not broadcast and

immediately sparked concern that this was a political agenda on the

part of the SABC.

This impression was further deepened when the SABC spokesperson

claimed that the SABC cameraman had not arrived in time to capture

footage of the incident. When e.tv aired the footage showing clearly

that an SABC cameraman was, in fact, present during the incident and

had recorded it, the unmistakeable whiff of a cover-up could no

longer be ignored.

Whilst we applaud the courage and swiftness of the SABC CEO in

appointing an inquiry into the matter, we remain concerned about the

implications of the entire saga. Firstly, we still do not have facts
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about the extent, if any, of an attempted cover-up. Secondly, the

perception of political bias at the SABC is not based solely on this

incident and has not been laid to rest.

In this respect, we would urge the SABC to immediately institute a

full-scale investigation into the possibility of a cover-up. That

the original incident was not broadcast is bad enough. That members

of the public broadcaster may have deliberately sought to deceive

the public about the matter is a complete betrayal of the public

broadcaster‘s mandate. The SABC must . . . [Interjections.] [Time

expired.] [Applause.]

                          VRYBURG BY-ELECTION

                          (Member‘s Statement)

Mr V C GORE (ID): Chairperson, the DA has once again sunk to new

depths in the selection of their candidate for the upcoming by-

election to be held tomorrow in Ward Three, Vryburg, in the North

West Province - a Mr Bashier Gafoor.

Purporting to be a practising Muslim, he is running an illegal

shebeen, selling liquor to under-age children, and thus exploiting

the community he wishes to represent. In addition, not only does he

supply illegal alcohol, he also operates an illegal gambling machine

from the same premises.
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At a meeting held on Sunday, 4 September 2005, addressed by the hon

Patricia de Lille, the community told her about the devastating

effects of this house of sin in Vryburg. The hon De Lille has also

been to the illegal shebeen where she was able to confirm the

illegal selling of alcohol to minors.

There is also an allegation that the DA member, a Mr Van Tonder,

paid Mr Gafoor a R5 000 bribe in order to stand for the DA. Once

again the DA has shown that it will stop at nothing in scraping the

bottom of the barrel in the choice of their public representatives.


The ID has also laid a charge against the person concerned and urges

the voters in the Vryburg by-election not to support the DA. I thank



                        (Member‘s Statement)

Mrs C DUDLEY (ACDP): Chair, according to the Government Gazette of

19 and 26 August it appears that plans are in place to excise the

Matatiele and Cedarville district from KwaZulu-Natal, and form the

Umzimbuvu Municipality as part of the Eastern Cape. The ACDP would

like to express our concern that the people of the area, including
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the Maluti rural area, are strongly opposed to this move, and object

to the apparent railroading of this proposal without any

consultation with the people that will be affected.

Although it has been the desire of most people in the affected area,

since 1994, that one municipality be formed, there is a strong

objection to the municipality being part of the Eastern Cape. This

proposal will not only subject residents of Matatiele to the

conditions faced by the poorer and largely underserviced areas of

the Eastern Cape, but will also add an extra burden on these

residents to travel about eight hours to reach the administrative

offices in Bisho. These residents currently travel four hours to the

administrative offices in Pietermaritzburg.

These last few months we‘ve witnessed the repercussions of a lack of

service delivery. Can we really afford another disgruntled,

underserviced community? The people of Matatiele community have been

vocal in their opposition to this proposal, but are concerned that

this is not being taken into account.

The movement of hundreds of people into an area that is

underserviced, without adequate consultation with them, could equal

the displacement many have endured in the past. The ACDP believes

that if government wants to alleviate what Minister Sydney Mfumadi

calls ―an administrative nightmare‖, then it must clearly
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demonstrate how these changes will in fact impact on service

delivery. Thank you. [Time expired.]

                          PEACE IN BURUNDI

                        (Member‘s Statement)

Mr O E MONARENG (ANC): Chair, the ANC-led government will continue

in its efforts to work for peace on this continent. The swearing-in

of President Pierre Nkulunziza marks an end to the era of conflict.

The world observed this important milestone in the efforts of the

people of Burundi to bring about peace in their country.

The democratisation process in Burundi gives hope to the people of

the Democratic Republic of Congo that peace in their country is

within their grasp. Peace in Burundi also communicates the message

to the people of Sudan that they too will live in peace. Peace in

Burundi means that the people of the Great Lakes Region will be able

to choose a developmental path that is grounded on the concrete

circumstances of their region.

We in the ANC, together with the people of the continent and the

world, are happy to be celebrating another achievement of the human

spirit. I thank you. [Applause.]
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                        (Member‘s Statement)

Mr M SWART (DA): Chair, the least we can expect from leaders of

political parties is that they verify and quote facts correctly and

not mislead the public. The hon Patricia de Lille repeated her

recent parliamentary statement in front of approximately 70

journalists, namely that the current mayor of George is the highest

paid mayor in South Africa at R1 million per annum. She also

commented to a journalist that I, in my capacity as the previous

mayor of George, received a severance package of R2 million when I

was elected to Parliament.

Both statements are totally devoid of truth. The salary of a mayor

is determined by the national Minister of Local Government and

Provincial Affairs and is published in the Government Gazette. The

mayor of George is remunerated at the same level as other mayors of

grade four municipalities, and his salary is not even R300 000 per


No provision is ever made for severance packages for counsellors,

and the statement that I received a severance package in some or

other form is untrue. I call on the hon De Lille to refrain from

broadcasting untruths and to start practising her politics in a

responsible and honest manner. I have instructed my attorneys to
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institute legal proceedings against Ms De Lille for defamation of

character. [Interjections.]

Mr V C GORE: Hon Chair, on a point of order: I would like you to

make a ruling on the following. It is an established practice within

this House that if a member wishes to bring any allegations of

improper conduct on the part of another member to the attention of

the House they should do so by way of a substantive motion,

comprising a clearly formulated and properly substantiated charge.

It has also been ruled previously that members should not be allowed

to impute improper motives to other members who cast personal

reflections on their integrity, or verbally abuse them in any other

way. I ask you to make a ruling on this point.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Hon member, we will look at

the content of the statement, and we will look at your point of

order and we will give a ruling on it at the next sitting of the


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, on a point of order:

Ms De Lille made the allegation in this House. She was not pulled up

by the Chair, she was not told to move a substantive notice of

motion . . .
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Mr Gibson, I am ruling you

out of order on the basis that I have expressed what the Chair will

do, which is in keeping with the practice of this House. We will

look at the statement and we will come back to the House with a

ruling on the next sitting day.

                      BLACK CONSCIOUSNESS WEEK

                        (Member‘s Statement)

Mr P J NEFOLOVHODWE (Azapo): Chairperson, today, 6 September 2005,

is the start of Black Consciousness Week, a week dedicated to the

commemoration of the death in detention, as well as the ideas, of

Steven Bantu Biko. It is now 28 years since his death in detention.

Azapo invites all people of our land to take time to remember the

contributions Biko made in order to bring about our young democracy.

There is no doubt that if Biko was alive he would be pleased with

the fact that black people are now in charge of their political

destiny, with a very significant number of women beginning to

advance to positions of power as well. He will see the advancement

of women as an indication that his dream of a nonsexist and

egalitarian society is emerging.

He will, however, be deeply concerned that racism is still alive and

kicking in our society. At the same time he will be dismayed by the
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fact that the poor of our society are still struggling to make a

living, and that the economy is still in white hands.

Steve Biko‘s thinking ability had a remarkable grasp of conditions

and circumstances under which the poor live. For this reason, the

nondelivery of essential services to the poor . . . Time expired.]



                          (Member‘s Statement)

Prof A K ASMAL (ANC): Chairperson, the ANC welcomes the move, to the

ANC, by former members of the NNP. This is recognition of the ANC as

a broad church, a home for all. These members will join us in

developing a national consciousness as a national movement, a

national consciousness about what it means to be a South African.

The dissolution of the NNP is a further illustration of how much we

have moved away from the monstrous racism that many of us lived

through. From my personal contact with these members, I can say that

they reflect the basic assumptions of our Constitution, which must

be the guiding light: equality, freedom, dignity and social justice.

Therefore, the ANC knows that they care for the fact that there are

people who are marginalised in our society. They will find that we
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debate and argue issues, unlike other parties, and we discuss. We

come to a situation quite alien to many of the former political

parties and, I should say, judging from the moves from some parties,

to present parties too.

So the ANC in the House welcomes their move, recognises then that we

can build a society rich in diversity, but united for a particular

purpose: Freedom. Thank you. [Applause.]


                          (Member‘s Statement)

Mr R JANKIELSOHN (DA): Chairperson, the Western Cape continues to

have the highest murder rate in the country with a ratio of 59,9

murders per 100 000 of the population. At the same time, the

province also has one of the highest robbery rates with 293

robberies per 100 000 of the population.

The SA Police Service in the province continues to suffer shortages

of 541 detectives, 1 290 crime-prevention personnel and 171

vehicles. The Bellville South and Athlone police stations are

particularly problematic. The Bellville South station has shortages

of 60% of detectives and 12% of visible policing personnel. Athlone

has shortages of 33% of detectives and 22% of personnel for visible

policing. Areas such as these will only win the war against crime
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when the SA Police Service in these areas has the required resources

to prevent crime and detect and punish criminals.

If the Deputy President, with her fully staffed component of

bodyguards, becomes a victim of crime, how can residents in areas

such as Athlone and Bellville South feel safe in their homes when

their police stations are understaffed to such an extent? Thank you,

Chairperson. [Applause.]



                           (Member‘s Statement)

Ms E NGALEKA (ANC): Chairperson, South Africa‘s mammoth task of

eradicating poverty, unemployment and underdevelopment cannot be a

challenge that should rest solely on the shoulders of government.

The task of erecting a sustainable bridge between the first and the

second economies demands that all economic role-players join forces

to build a solid and durable economy.

It is in this context that the ANC commends the Old Mutual Assets

Manager‘s announcement recently to invest in infrastructure projects

in the rural parts of our country. The private-sector money

administrator has joined forces with the Development Bank of

Southern Africa to launch a R500 million fund to be co-invested in
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development projects in poor provinces such as the Eastern Cape,

Limpopo and the North West.

As the President correctly said in the state of the nation address,

success in the growth of our economy should be manifest to the

extent that the marginalised in the wilderness of the second economy

are included and are at least afforded sustainable livelihoods.

We are hopeful that this move will bolster rural development and

further pull the poor closer to the mainstream economy. We

congratulate both these institutions on this bold initiative and

hope that more companies will take their cue from this. I thank you.


                       CAPE TOWN MUNICIPALITY

                        (Member‘s Statement)

Ms N J NGELE (ANC): Chairperson, during the first 10 years of our

freedom and democracy the ANC-led government built an unprecedented

1,6 million new houses, accommodating around 6 million people, and

transferred title deeds to many more. However, we acknowledge the

fact that many of our people are still homeless and others are

living in squalid conditions.
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The City of Cape Town municipality has decided to grant more than

15 000 tenants title deeds. They have been renting council flats for

more than 20 years. One excited tenant, Mr Nicholas Blaauw of

Heideveld, who is 67 years old, had this to say about the

initiative: ―I never thought this day would come. Finally this flat

will become our home.‖ He had lived in the flat for more than 35


The following areas will be the immediate beneficiaries: Kewtown,

Hanover Park, Manenberg, Bellville South and Diep River.

The ANC salutes the initiative taken by the City of Cape Town

municipality to better the lives of our people, and further urges

other municipalities to investigate the possibilities of such

initiatives in their areas. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

                        MINISTERS’ RESPONSES


                       (Minister‘s Response)

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson, I think it is important that

today we acknowledge that this window period of floor-crossing marks

the culmination of the negotiations that the ANC and the NP started
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whilst some of the members of the ANC were prisoners and others were

in exile.

The two parties – the ANC and the NP – opened a dialogue that over

the years produced a negotiated settlement and a Constitution that

today is the pride of all of us. Subsequent to that, the two parties

persisted, in spite of the difficulties, to provide an example to

the population of our country that a joint effort must continue to

produce better days, stability for our nation, and so on.

Therefore, ultimately, the dissolution of the NNP and the joining of

the ANC by the majority of its members, signal the advancement of

our country towards a genuine national and patriotic nation.

[Interjections.] Beyond that point, I think it is important that

although there are those who may not yet have joined I am quite sure

that in the period that lies ahead, increasing numbers of those who

stayed behind will follow suit.

The nations of our region, the nations of our continent, have taken

very seriously the example of the NP and the ANC in starting a

negotiation to eliminate conflict. Today the nations of our

continent are saying that there can be no resolution of conflict, of

problems, without the participation of South Africa, without drawing

from the experience this nation has had.
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I think it is proper therefore that we say that this negotiation

laid the foundation for peace on our continent. I thank you. [Time

expired.] [Applause.]


                         FIGHT AGAINST CRIME

                        (Minister‘s Response)

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Chairperson, the hon member of the UDM

should have stopped at congratulating the CEO of the SABC for having

initiated the probe that he did with independent experts. He should

also have noted the report by Prof Berger and colleagues who

assisted him. That report found that, in fact, there was no cover-up

but that, certainly, the SABC needs to improve with respect to co-

ordination in the corporation.

However, if the member had stopped at congratulating the CEO, we

would absolutely agree, because he acted as he needed to do, and

certainly showed that he deserves to be in the position he occupies

at this time. So there is actually no political capital to make out

of this one.

With respect to the housing needs and government‘s response,

particularly regarding the action by the Cape Town city council,

certainly, this is part of the achievement of programmes that
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government has set out to accomplish, in terms of our contract with

the people to ensure that their development, housing and other needs

are indeed satisfied.

I am sure that the hon member from Azapo would agree that providing

for housing needs and basic services is part of achieving the ideal

that Steve Biko lived for and eventually sacrificed his life for. It

is for that reason that we work so hard to ensure that the ideals

espoused are achieved; and we do so through educational empowerment

as well.

Finally, we welcome the comments members have made with respect to

the SA Police Service. Any thinking member of Parliament knows that

we are doing as much as we can to ensure that we do erode the

instances of crime in our country; and that, indeed, the conduct of

the constables mentioned, from the Free State province, exemplifies

the kind of Police Service that our government has worked so hard to

build. I thank you. [Applause.]


                        (Minister‘s Response)

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, I want to comment on

the commission of inquiry issue which was mentioned by the DA

because, perhaps, the hon member has decided to forget that it is us
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here who actually took the bull by the horns to constitute an

inquiry a few years ago around the issue of the arms deal. The

report on that issue was actually tabled in this Parliament.


Yes, it was temporary, according to the DA. That‘s what you are

saying. We are surprised, because that report concerning those

chapter 9 institutions was actually approved here by this

Parliament. It is good for you to note that the ANC, which is

leading this government, actually believes in conducting and forming

commissions. That is the strength of the ANC because it believes in

transparency and frankness, which is what we have taught you. And

the ANC believes in conducting its business in the open.

All reports about whatever it was that we have investigated in the

past have been placed before you in this Parliament, and those

reports were debated here. That‘s a culture which we have introduced

in the country and which was foreign to you. It‘s a culture which

you have never practised and never introduced in this country, hon

Sheila, during your time as Minister for Justice and Constitutional

Development. I thank you. [Applause.]


                       (Minister‘s Response)
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Chairperson, I would like to respond to the concern raised by the

hon member from the ACDP with regard to cross-boundary

municipalities. I would also like to urge the member not to

instigate or raise people‘s anger by misleading them or giving them

wrong information.

The information is quite clear that there are legal processes that

are going to take place around cross-boundary municipalities. You

also said, right so, that it is a proposal on the table and due

processes will take place where public hearings will take place. All

those affected areas, not only Matatiele, can participate and come

forward in the public hearings to state their cases as to why they

cannot be moved to one area or another.

What I would like to urge the member from the ACDP to do is that he

should go to Matatiele and encourage all the affected parties to

participate in those public hearings. I thank you. [Applause.]



Mr R COETZEE: Chairperson, I think I should just clarify something.

The ANC can have as many investigations into its own affairs as it

likes, it just can‘t do them with taxpayers money. That‘s called the
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separation of party and state and I would have thought that the

Minister and the Cabinet would understand that distinction.


As the world continues to globalise, so migration – legal and

otherwise – increases. Perhaps the key insight into the future of

migration is that it is impossible to stop people from moving across

borders in a world where it becomes easier and easier for almost

everything else to exist in a borderless global community.

Inherent in this reality are both opportunities and threats because,

on the one hand, for those of us who regard borders as essentially

artificial constructs, a vision of a world in which people, as well

as information and capital, move with maximum freedom is exciting

and compelling. On the other hand, such a world is only possible

where there is consensus on certain values, respect for human

rights, commitment to democracy, and love for individual freedom.

That is also possible only in a world economy, which is free enough

to grow and absorb new entrants into expanding labour markets.

What renders migration fraught is a clash of values, as exemplified

most tragically in the recent bombing of trains and a bus in London

a few months ago by the British-born descendants of migrants. What

also makes it complicated is competition for resources and jobs,

which is something that contributes enormously to xenophobia in our

own country every day.
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So, to find a policy course through the treacherous waters of

international migration is not easy, but it is essential. South

Africa is both a destination for migrants and the place of their

origin, especially skilled ones. We must draw on our wide experience

in our contribution to the debate at the Interparliamentary Union in


Our challenge is twofold. First, we must find a way to deal with the

millions of people, mostly Africans, who flock across our borders.

Some people think it is politically dangerous to be what is

sometimes called ―soft on immigration‖. But that is really just a

way of trying to accommodate xenophobia. The fact is that people

come to South Africa out of desperation and hope. Human beings

everywhere want the same simple things - basic security and the

opportunity to take care of themselves and their families.

Quite a few years ago I took a harrowing train trip into Mozambique,

where I saw first-hand the most destitute people I have ever laid

eyes on. After a week in that country, I arrived back in Nelspruit

and saw that town through the eyes of an illegal immigrant. It

seemed grand, impossibly wealthy, and flooded with opportunities.

The fact is that our country's approach to illegal immigration is a

hopeless failure and a farce. Millions and millions of illegal

immigrants live here. Only a tiny fraction are caught, sometimes
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 29 of 141

abused, and then shipped - probably temporarily – back to their

countries of origin. Many of them return a few months later.

I am not saying this as a wanton criticism of the government,

because I think it is a difficult problem to deal with. And I am not

suggesting that anybody has a perfect answer because I don‘t have

one either. But I do think that this House needs to have an honest

and open conversation about what to do about a problem that our

current policies quite simply do not address; and to do so in a

humane manner that respects people and human rights.

We need also to deal with the problem of skilled migrants who leave

our shores for opportunity elsewhere. Everyone knows how the brain

drain is undermining our health system, for example. Indeed, a lack

of skilled human resources is the number one problem facing our

health system today. Today I don‘t have time to deal with the health

system, but my party has done so on numerous occasions. I would

simply say that one easy way in which to counteract the brain drain

is to make it easy for skilled people from abroad to set up shop

here in our country.

I know two people from other countries – two of many thousands – who

were educated at our universities at enormous expense to our

taxpayers and who, once they had graduated, could not get permission

to stay and work in South Africa. So today both of them are
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 30 of 141

contributing their skills – learnt here at our expense – to the

people of Great Britain. And that is a waste.

We need urgent and rational action on the part of the government to

sort this mess out. Frankly, it's not that difficult to do. We

mustn‘t obsess about control. What we must do is to say to the

skilled people of the world that this is a place where they can come

and ply their trade, apply their skills, employ our people and make

them richer. We should open our doors to those people.

The resolution that will serve before the Interparliamentary Union

in Geneva later this year is largely rational. I think it‘s

sensitive to the plight of immigrants and I am sure that my party‘s

representative will support it. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Chairperson, apparently, the migration we are

talking about does not include the migration of members of

Parliament from one party to another.

This is of course a very serious subject, which cuts across the

borders of practically all countries in the world, with implications

for the world as a whole - migration and development. It is

therefore also very appropriate for our Parliament to discuss this

6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 31 of 141

Regarding the meaning of the term ―migrant‖, I find it surprising

that it apparently has no universally accepted definition, despite

the fact that it is a widely publicised phenomenon that has been

occurring for a long time. The UN has however proposed that a long-

term migrant be defined as follows: ―A person who moves to a

country, other than that of his or her usual residence, for a period

of at least twelve months‖.

We know by now that migratory laws are a worldwide reality and

create different and mostly serious implications for the

international community. The phenomenon has escalated in recent

decades. Escalation can be seen from the fact that in 1965 there

were only 75 million migrants, while just 20 years later, in 1985,

this figure had reached a staggering 105 million. We Africans have

not escaped this phenomenon, and according to estimates by the UN,

the total number of international migrants in Africa rose from 9

million in 1960 to 16 million in 2000.

A study conducted by the University of Cape Town revealed that over

233 000 South Africans emigrated permanently to five countries

between 1989 and 1997. This figure of 233 000 South Africans

emigrating is disputed by many others who allege that it is causing

confusion to refer to formal emigrants only, and the real migration

figure is hidden. They are saying that up to two million people have

left South Africa, but have not yet migrated.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 32 of 141

There are many causes for migration, such as political instability,

loss of confidence in the future of a particular country, continued

poverty, lack of economic prospects, human rights violations and

discrimination in the country of origin.

I shall now briefly deal with the challenges we are faced with in

this respect. A recent report by the International Labour

Organisation contains a list of ten challenges that international

migration currently entails. Included on the list are the

manifestation of xenophobic hostility and the exodus of well-

educated professionals – the brain drain.

Those two topics are currently very relevant to South Africa.

Xenophobia is present in South Africa, as some people see foreigners

as people out to steal their jobs and take the food out of their

mouths. Foreigners are therefore sometimes targeted and seen as

unwelcome, especially in the face of the fact that we suffer from a

huge unemployment problem.

Since the beginning of the 1990s there has been an increased

migration of skilled and highly skilled workers leading to a brain

drain from some countries, including South Africa. Developed

countries and those with ageing populations will try to attract the

most skilled, trained and experienced workers who can add value to

the economy and have a positive impact on the economic development

of their countries.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 33 of 141

While the migration of workers has many benefits for the developed

countries, South Africa, as well as most other developing countries,

faces an enormous drain of human resources. There are clearly many

challenges facing us with regard to migration and development. This

is a growing phenomenon that requires a comprehensive and coherent

strategy at an international level, which is currently lacking.

Although there are many international initiatives addressing

migration, they should be receiving more international attention

than they are currently getting.

In conclusion, we as parliamentarians have an important role to play

in highlighting this important issue and its many challenges, as

well as achieving the integration of the required laws and public

policies. Thank you.

Mr L W GREYLING: Hon Chair, it is often stated that we live in a

global village. One of the characteristics of this global village is

that people move around it, exploring different opportunities to

enhance their quality of life. In many ways this movement of people

enriches our village by exposing all of us to different cultures and

perspectives on life.

There are certain worrying trends which need to be addressed in this

movement, though. Sixty percent of global migrants reside in the
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                               PAGE: 34 of 141

more developed countries and only 40% in developing countries.

Developing country migration is also mainly between these countries,

rather than from developed countries. It is therefore an unfortunate

reality that most people tend to migrate towards economically-

developed centres, in many cases, taking with them the skills that

are desperately needed in our own countries.

In South Africa there is much talk of the so-called brain drain,

where we lose many skilled people to developed countries. In some

cases these people are only temporary migrants, looking to expose

themselves to a new culture and return a few years later.

This kind of migration can be enormously beneficial to South Africa,

as these migrants return with new skills and global experience and

in some cases even foreign currency that can contribute to our

economy. This kind of migration should be encouraged, but at the

same time we need to ensure that we also build a sense of national

pride and create the right incentives to prevent many of our skilled

compatriots from becoming permanent migrants.

We should also be looking at making it easier for those foreigners

with the willingness and skills to contribute to building our new

society. I have met many foreigners in South Africa who have fallen

in love with this country and are looking for any way possible to

stay longer and help us in our reconstruction and development

6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 35 of 141

It is therefore worrying that the Department of Home Affairs has

currently issued a directive that states that no new applications

for exceptional skills can be processed, because they have not yet

worked out the precise quota. This issue needs to be urgently

addressed if we are to encourage our skilled foreigners to stay and

build our society.

Finally, I wish to address the important issue of refugees in South

Africa. The majority of these refugees are single, young men who

have fled intolerable situations in their own countries. I have met

refugees who are educated as doctors, teachers and agricultural

scientists, who are being forced to work in menial jobs such as car

guards. Although they are educated, they struggle to convert their

qualifications through Saqa, depriving them of a meaningful income

and South Africa of their skills base.

This issue must be addressed and we need to create a far more

enabling environment to allow genuine refugees into the mainstream

of our society. In this way we can actively promote a true African

Renaissance. I thank you.

Mr S N SWART: Chairman, the ACDP endorses the IPUs‘ concerns as set

out in its draft report on the consequences of the brain drain. In

the first instance, active ways must be sought to halt migration of

skilled workers and skilled citizens, particularly in the field of
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 36 of 141

medicine - as the situation in South Africa pertains. We need to

encourage health care workers to stay in the country by providing

improved service conditions, better salaries and incentives,

especially in the rural areas.

Whereas the ACDP also welcomes the fact that even the contributions

of those who have already left the country may not necessarily be

lost to us, rapid technological advancement means that the relaying

of information back to the country of origin becomes a useful

mechanism for the transfer of knowledge and skills.

Furthermore, migrants who return to their country of origin can make

a meaningful contribution to socioeconomic upliftment. We in the

ACDP believe that we must provide some form of incentive, whether

tax or otherwise, to encourage our expatriates to return to help

build the nation.

The influx of migrants into South Africa can also mean that the pool

of talent that has exited the country can be replaced with similarly

qualified personnel. We believe that harnessing the talents and

expertise of new arrivals to the country can address shortages

created by the brain drain. We do, however, need to have a look at

the red tape in applications for work permits and the costs involved

for skilled migrants.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                             PAGE: 37 of 141

We in the ACDP are also extremely concerned about the vulnerability

to trafficking, human rights violations and xenophobia that

migrants, particularly women, in South Africa and other nations, are

exposed to. According to the draft IPU report, women today move with

greater ease and are freer with regard to their family

responsibilities and the authority of men.

It is estimated overall that 48% of migrants are women. The report

goes on to state that female migrants deserve special attention, as

they are more often victims of human rights violations, sexual and

labour exploitation and often receive lower wages than male


On the other hand, whilst fully acknowledging the special

vulnerability of women migrants and abuses women are more prone to

suffer, the draft report also points out that migration can contain

an element of empowerment of women as it offers the possibility of

financial independence and a new status for such women within their

families and society.

The ACDP urges parliamentarians, who will attend the debate in the

IPU, to adopt a clear and focused stance with regard to the brain

drain and other issues we have raised.

On the one hand, let us do everything in our power to keep our

skilled citizens in the country, and on the other hand, let us
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 38 of 141

devise channels for the transfer of knowledge and incentives for the

return of those expatriates who have left; and in so doing, attempt

to fill the gaps by providing opportunities to migrants in our own

country. I thank you.

Ms S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, we in South Africa are no strangers to

migration. The majority of our population was brought to South

Africa over many decades, to work in the fields. That‘s how we have

proudly become the rainbow nation. However, from the report it is

evident that migration is a process that has not slowed down in any

way over the years, and, as we know, migration comes with its own

benefits and hazards.

We have lost many of our professionals to countries abroad, and we

have an influx of people migrating to South Africa from whom we can

benefit through skills and fresh knowledge. The loss of resources to

maintain and provide for our local citizenry can be compensated by

such foreigners. This provides a strong argument against xenophobia

and the insecurities and fears of locals.

The MF feels that while there should be leeway for immigrants, we do

however support certain protective measures, not only for the local

citizenry, but also to ensure the security of such immigrants.

We are a democratic country that adheres strongly to the values and

principles of human rights. Noting this, we will not be tolerant of
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 39 of 141

any contravention of our national Constitution or the exploitation

of any person.

The MF supports this IPU report and wishes the matter to be further

addressed with our neighbouring African states. A person should have

freedom of movement. Human rights and the laws of any country that

one enters need to be adhered to and honoured.

The ―brain drain‖ and ―brain gain‖ resulting from migratory trends

are driven by the search for better pay, better working conditions

and greater opportunities for career advancement, and also the

chance to get ahead in receiving countries. Migrants who return

home, temporary or permanently, can contribute to the development of

their countries. Thank you. [Applause.]

Ms H C MGABADELI: Chairperson and the House, before turning to the

report by the IPU, I think it is appropriate to provide some

perspectives and thoughts on this issue within the context of so-

called First World and Third World migration, for if we do not

address the context, we will run the risk of concentrating on

international First World migration and thus neglect the issue of

the development of Third World migration.

Migration, according to the Collins Gem Dictionary, means ―move from

one place to settle in another, a journey between different

habitats‖. I will dwell on what we call intercountry migration, its
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                             PAGE: 40 of 141

causes and development. Intercountry migrations are largely caused

by the foreign introduction of economic means of production that

defies those of the aborigines. This arrogant introduction of

foreign means of production is then confronted by different kinds of

resistance from the would-be labour force.

In order to force labour to yield the monetary reward in the form of

wages, all sorts of legislation was put in place to ensure that

migration took place under duress. People faced poverty and arrests

due to these laws, so they left their areas of birth and moved to

cities and towns where the capitalist mode of production was in

operation, and this became the order of the day.

Some of the laws that institutionalised migration in the Republic of

South Africa were, for instance, the hut tax that was introduced by

Sir Theophilus Shepstone in Natal and the poll tax for every man

over the age of 18 years, which was introduced by the colonialists

in Natal in 1906. The labour tax, introduced by Cecil Rhodes in the

Cape, was known as the Glen Grey Act of 1894. It forced people in

the Cape to pay R1 every year unless they could prove that they had

worked for wages for three months. They knew that if you were not

employed and your source of survival was not cash, you would borrow

this R1 until you became bankrupt.

The second measure was the written passes to undertake any kind of

journey in the Cape, which was in existence long before 1828. It was
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 41 of 141

called the Caledon Code and Ordinance 49. Another measure was an

employment Act that formalised the imperial state‘s full regulation

of the migrant labour economy, a practice that Grey had already

introduced in British Kaffraria.

Based on the above, and many other measures, we therefore cannot

just talk of such migration as if it had been free movement. It was

forced and it was a process whose phases are still continuing. We

always wonder when people talk of 11 years as a long time to undo

the results of these tax laws that I have mentioned, whose purpose

was to deal the black citizens a heavy blow for generations to come.

These types of migration ended up inviting other neighbouring

countries to succumb and South African mines and industries became

the answers. In the meantime, there was no development in the areas

from where these migrant labourers came. The regime of the day had

no intention to develop such areas, for fear of resistance by

labourers to selling their labour power far from their homes, and

money became the key to getting whatever a person needed.

If we as parliamentarians think of running away from this background

and cloud intercountry migration with other issues, we will fail to

come forward with proper development designed to redress the past,

thus halving poverty and achieving the UN millennium goals as a

whole, including our own South African Vision 2014.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 42 of 141

I am coming to the international migration, which the IPU report

speaks about. Migration has always been a feature of human life.

Moving from place to place in search of means of subsistence or to

escape a strong foe, men and women, since time immemorial, have

spread over the greater part of the earth‘s surface. Within recorded

history, human migration has transformed the entire aspect of lands

and continents, and the racial, ethnic and linguistic composition of

their inhabitants.

Why then do we now, as a globe, need to say that migration is a

problem, while it was not a problem in the past for a few just to

take over other people‘s land, wealth, dignity, etc? It is a problem

because there are few or no proper systems in place to control this

outstanding feature of human life, if it has to be budgeted for.

The IPU has to review, strengthen and establish laws and systems

that control this human feature. Failure to do this, will lead to

some superpowers creating scenarios that do not exist in order for

them to be able to invade other countries and create wealth for

themselves, thus migrating to such countries on a so-called

―official permit to bring about peace and stability‖.

If such control measures are not in place with regard to

international migration, coupled with a calculated, well-planned

approach to the economic development of the areas that were left

underdeveloped due to colonisation and the exploitation of Third
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 43 of 141

World countries‘ wealth, etc, we shall forever have to occupy our

minds with terms such as xenophobia, brain drain, feminisation of

migration, increased number of migrant children, etc.

We need to look at this within the context of the causes and

challenges we are faced with. As a globe, across the lines of First

and Third Worlds, first and second economies, etc, we are faced with

sophisticated challenges based on this migration and development.

With regard to animal migration, due to the environmental situation,

generations to come may not know some of the animal species we have

now, due to the unprofessional migration of people who have the

skills to breed animals; not spending time on nature, the

environment and sustainability; diseases that are carried because

animals are not quarantined, and that sometimes remain undiscovered

at the time of migration; and opportunities that result from


Even when well-controlled systems are in place, a number of

opportunities exist, including the following: exchange of skills,

exposure to different cultures, exposure to different ways of life,

economic boosts by outsiders during conducive months, summer for

summerweather lovers and winter for winterweather lovers.

As regards interethnic relations, we are faced with a number of

threats, which the document from the IPU describes, but not as
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 44 of 141

threats. If there is continued noncommittal by different parliaments

to set up proper systems or control measures with regard to

migration and the causes of such migration, long-term sustainable

development will always be an unreachable dream.

The following are some of these threats: one, lack of analysis of

the different root causes of migration; two, lack of comprehensive

approaches and coherent migration policies at different levels;

three, nonexistence of a political united challenge internationally

to deal with migration in a sustainable way; four, vulnerable groups

such as women, children and people with disabilities can easily

become perpetual slaves of sex, labour, exploitation, etc; five,

humanitarian agencies which are not monitored by anyone can easily

become the messiahs in times of panic by migrants - the damage

remains unrecorded as some of these humanitarian agencies are also

involved in illegal activities; six, discrimination against unknown

unintroduced foreigners will yield negative results in times of

tensions; seven, lack of protected human rights of all stakeholders;

eight, a soft approach by the UN to its member countries which,

though signatories to the UN, failed to sign the 1990 International

Convention on the Protection of the Rights of all Migrant Workers

and Member Families - it is said that only 25 out of 191 states are

signatories, so really, we need to take this seriously; nine, lack

of legal and regulated methods for migration; and lastly, the lazily

addressed economic gap between rich and poor and the serious

structural deficiencies of the developing countries. If we continue
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 45 of 141

reasoning so lazily on dealing with this gap, it will really be a

threat to us.

I just want to take all of us back a bit when it comes to the white

population in South Africa. We in the ANC have not forgotten that,

after the fall of the Soviet Union, Pik Botha and other apartheid

leaders went to Eastern Europe to recruit white migrants to come and

live in South Africa in order to increase the white population. One

wonders what legal monitoring devices were put in place with regard

to this expansion beyond recognition from which we are still


I thank you. Go and think as parliamentarians about the delegation

that is going to come from this Parliament. Let us stop howling,

because when you are outside South Africa, you become so soft. All

these countries challenge you and one feels embarrassed when you do

not howl as you do here. Enjoy this warmth, and the delegation that

is going to be elected should sit together and stop thinking you are

this and that. Study and go out with a united voice from the

Parliament of South Africa. Thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.


6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 46 of 141

Ms Z A KOTA: Chairperson, Ministers, comrades and colleagues, I

greet you this afternoon in this important debate. Our committee is

honoured to have women of substance in its portfolio committee.

These achievers are Mildred Ramakabanisia, who received the order of

Chief Albert Luthuli, and Mama Ngele who received the award by the

Tshwane Municipality.

This event was celebrated on 24 August at the Ministerial residence.

We thank the Minister of Housing for opening doors to the portfolio

committee that evening, but on a sad note, on behalf of the

portfolio committee we wish the Minister‘s spokesperson Sandile

Dikeni a speedy recovery. He was involved in a car accident. He

graced that occasion by reciting a poem, so we wish him a speedy


In this debate we wish to bring to this House the experiences of the

Housing Portfolio Committee on their visit to Gauteng. We are here

to share a wealth of information with the House in order to improve

the lives of the people for the better.

It has also became very clear during that visit that housing

delivery in Gauteng is on track, and that the leadership of the MEC
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 47 of 141

of housing, Comrade Nomvula Mokoanyane, does have a positive impact

on fast-tracking housing delivery.

What was also clear was that the co-ordination of the three spheres

of government was invisible, and it was committed in implementing

the vision of the Freedom Charter. It is clear that houses are

delivered in Gauteng with great speed.

The objective of the visit was to assess whether the breaking of new

ground strategy has indeed taken off in this province, and what the

challenges are, and secondly to look at the provision of basic

infrastructure, to assess the quality of housing units provided, in

order to see whether the government was getting value for money in

the provision of houses, and whether the housing products were

indeed designed to bring back their dignity to beneficiaries,

whether the housing units where adhering to the norms and standards,

as stipulated in the housing code.

The purpose of the visit was also to ascertain the working

relationship of the three spheres of government in the delivery

process. It was also aimed at monitoring the involvement of emerging

contractors in the housing delivery process, as well as women


Access to housing and secure accommodation is an integral part of

government‘s commitment to reduce poverty and to improve the quality
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 48 of 141

of people‘s lives. The ANC-led government has delivered more than

1,6 million houses to more than 7 million people between 1994 to


During the same period a total of 2,4 million subsidies were

approved. I just want to remind this House of the All Media and

Products Survey, which was conducted by the SA Advertising Research

Foundation that was published by the Sunday Times in 2002.

If we recall, in that survey it is stated that it was aimed at

measuring the change in the quality of life, since the democratic

order was installed. It became clear that since 1994 the government

housing programme, has improved the quality of life of many South

Africans, and that 60% of South African households own their homes.

There has been growth in the total number of homes. The number of

home-owners has grown to more than 77%. The most important thing is

that in terms of the delivery, the ANC government is giving houses

to the very poor.

The Minister of Housing, Dr Lindiwe Sisulu, unveiled the

comprehensive plan for the development of integrated sustainable

human settlement in September 2004. As we know the core principles

of that strategy are the following: accelerating delivery of housing

as a key strategy for poverty alleviation; utilising the provision

of houses as a job creation strategy; ensuring that property can be
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 49 of 141

accessed by all as an asset for wealth creation and empowerment;

leveraging growth in the economy, combating crime and promoting

social cohesion; using housing development to break barriers between

the first economy residential property boom, and the second economy

slump; utilising housing as an instrument for the development of

sustainable human settlements in support of spatial restructuring;

and diversifying housing products by placing emphasis on rental


What is meant by sustainable human settlement? It means that housing

delivery can become a catalyst for creating sustainable human

settlement. Through housing, people can have access to water,

electricity, sanitation, clinics and bulk infrastructure.

In fact, the housing challenge ceases to be just a question of the

number of units delivered each year, but that housing delivery and

habitation are translated into a vehicle to achieve multi goals and

outcomes over and above the requirements for shelter.

Sustainability in housing and human settlement can be understood in

terms of four pillars, which support sustainable development. We

state that projects should address environmental challenges, they

should generate economic empowerment, they should enhance social

capital, and they should build institutional capacity.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                             PAGE: 50 of 141

The visit to Gauteng, therefore, helped the committee to understand

to what extent the province was aligning itself to the breaking of

new ground strategy as unveiled by the Minister.

On the first day of the visit we paid a courtesy visit to the

national Department of Housing in Pretoria, where we were welcomed

by Mr Dlabantu, the now deputy director general, as the Minister and

the DG were busy with the Iran delegation.

We received a briefing on the MTEF and several programmes of the

department. MEC Nomvula Mokoanyane hosted us over breakfast in a

hotel the following day. She briefed us at the official department.

The committee was taken around Gauteng for a visit to a number of


The ANC members will deal in detail with these projects. We then

proceeded to visit housing institutions, namely the NAHFC, the

NHBRC, and the Social Housing Foundation. All these institutions and

the department said to us that they are aligning themselves with the

strategy. It was very clear from the report that they were meeting

the targets in line with the strategy itself.

When we visited the projects, it was clear that the project managers

in those projects were women. That was very positive in Gauteng. We

have also found out that, especially in places like Bekkersdal,
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 51 of 141

women where involved in the housing delivery process, particularly

in the developing of the economy.

We also welcome what the MEC has done in this month of August, by

delivering title deeds to elderly women in Orange Farm. We have also

noted the delivery of housing for the month of August in Protea


Ndifuna ukuthi ke nangona besindwendwele eRhawutini besingezo

ndwendwe nje, kodwa besibonisa into yokuba u-ANC uyazakha izindlu

jikelele eMzantsi Afrika. Besibonisa ukuba amandla alo mbutho anjani

na ekwakheni izindlu, singulo rhulumente wesininzi nowentando

yabantu. Olo hambo lwaseRhawutini lubonise ukuba urhulumente

okhokelwa yi-ANC unenkathalo ngabantu kwaye uyazakha izindlu.

Baninzi abantu abafumene izindlu nabafumene imisebenzi ngethuba

lokwakhiwa kwazo.

Okona kubalulekileyo kukuba apho kwakhiwa khona izindlu kubekho

iivenkile, izikolo, iikliniki kunye namaholo ukwenzela ukuba abantu

babe nobomi obungcono. Urhulumente akanakwakha zindlu eyedwa.

Kuyafuneka ukuba bancedisane naye oongxowa-nkulu, imibutho yabahlali

kunye nabantu. Sicela ukuba wonke umntu abe negalelo ekwakhiweni

kwezindlu kuba ekwakheni ezi zindlu, sakha noluntu.

Sifuna wonke umntu athi: ‗Nam ndibe negalelo ekuvezeni impilo

engcono ebantwini endihlala nabo.‘ Xa ndiza kuhlala phantsi,
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 52 of 141

kubalulekile ukuba ndiyicacise phandle into yokuba siyi-ANC

siyayixhasa into yokuba izindlu zakhiwe kufutshane neendawo

abasebenza kuzo abantu. Ikwabalulekile into yokuba izindlu zakhiwe

phaya ezidolophini. Xa kusakhiwa izindlu, . . . (Translation of

Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[I would like to let you know that when we visited Gauteng, we were

not just visitors but we were there to prove to people that the ANC

is committed to building houses for the whole of South Africa. We, as

the ANC, were showing how powerful we are and how committed to

providing housing for the people. The visit to Gauteng proved that

the ANC-led government cares about its people. Many people received

houses and jobs through the government housing project.

It is important that housing development is placed where there are

shops, schools, clinics and city halls in order for people to access

services that would better their lives. Government alone could never

succeed in achieving its goal of providing housing for everybody. We

appeal for every other person‘s support and contribution because in

the process, we are building a community and a nation.

We would be happy if everybody could say: ‗I made my contribution

towards the betterment of other people of my community.‘ It is

important, before I take my seat, to mention that the ANC supports

the view that houses should be built closer to workplaces and where
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 53 of 141

there are social amenities. It is also important that housing

development is done closer to the city. During this process . . . ]

. . . inxenye yalo naluphina uphuhliso kufuneka ibe nesiqingatha

esingamashumi amabini ekhulwini esibekelwe izindlu zabanemivuzo

ephantsi ngoba ibalulekile into yokuba siqale ukumanya uluntu lwethu

abangekho zidolophini, phaya koomaBishop‘s Court ukuze ibe

ngoongxowa-nkulu bodwa abahlala kwezo ndawo. Nabantu bethu mabakwazi

ukuhlala kuzo. Siyaphinda siyagxininisa ekubeni xa kusenziwa

uphuhliso nokuba kuphaya emabaleni egalufa, amashumi amabini

ekhulwini . . . (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)

[A portion of every development should consist of at least 20%,

which is geared for low-income houses, because it is critical that

we begin to integrate our communities and not leave the cities and

towns and urban areas such as Bishop‘s Court for the affluent

people. Our people should be able to live in these areas. We would

like to emphasise that 20% of the proceeds of development of areas

such as gold courses, . . . ]

 . . . should be put aside to build these low-income houses so that

. . . .

 . . . abantu bafikelele kwezi ndawo. Masimbone urhulumente

eyiphelisa into yokuba ilokishi ibezindawo ezihluphekileyo lo gama

ezidolophini kukuhle kakhulu. Ngako oko ke urhulumente okhokelwa yi-
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 54 of 141

ANC uyayivuma into yokuba abantu bethu ngoku mababuyele


Mabaye kuhlala kwindawo ezikufutshane nemisebenzi yabo. Yiyo loo nto

singulo rhulumente we-ANC sibambisene neemibutho yabantu. Sizama

ukuba abantu bethu babuyele kundalashe apho babehlala khona kooma-

District Six, nakooma-Kensington, ukwenzela ukuba kweli xesha sikulo

sibonise ukuba asinguye laa rhulumente wocalucalulo kodwa

singowentando yesininzi. Sifuna ke ukugoba umqolo. Enkosi [Laphela

ixesha.] [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[ . . . people can get access. Government should stop treating

townships like poor areas whilst concentrating on making urban

centres more beautiful. The ANC-led government encourages people to

live in urban areas.

They need to live closer to their workplaces. It is for that reason

that we work closely and in collaboration with civil society and

community organisations as the ANC-led government. We are keen to

prove that we are a democratic government by allowing people to go

and establish their homes in areas such as District Six and

Kensington, where they used to live before the forced removals. We

are committed to that. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]]

Mr A C STEYN: Chairperson, the report we are supposed to be debating

today deals with the committee‘s very first oversight visit and it
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 55 of 141

occurred almost one year ago. It started off with a visit to the

offices of the national Department of Housing in Pretoria, where we

were given an overview of the various programmes of the department.

For me, the highlights of that particular visit were - perhaps due

to the fact that I am familiar with the various programmes of the

department - the major upgrading and renovations that were in

progress at the department‘s offices, and the state-of-the-art

communication and IT systems that were either being installed or had

already been completely installed.

The conference room we used on that particular occasion had already

been completed and it took the best part of 30 to 45 minutes for the

officials to find somebody who knew how the new equipment operated

before we could get started. I trust that those teething problems

have been resolved and that all the new equipment will contribute

towards greater efficiency in the department.

Day two kicked off with a breakfast meeting with the MEC and we had

a meeting with the standing committee at the Gauteng legislature.

This was followed by a visit to Alexandra Township after a briefing

on the Alexandra Renewal Project. This project, which started off as

a presidential pilot project some years ago, and was once considered

a flagship project in Gauteng, is unfortunately being dogged by

controversy, which has tainted what could have been a benchmark

project for South Africa.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 56 of 141

The reasons for this are varied, but primary amongst them, I

believe, is the lack of leadership. This project has probably had

half a dozen or so project managers since its inception, some

skilled and others clearly not up to the job.

However, one of the challenges raised with the committee by the MEC

as well as other role-players and spelt out in the report was the

lack of co-operation and participation by other provincial

departments – so much for all the talk about integrated development

within government departments!

The other major challenge was the lack of funding from national

level. Perhaps it is appropriate that I therefore take this

opportunity to formally request that a tiny portion of the funds

earmarked by government for Zimbabwe be channelled to this very

worthy project, in order to improve the working conditions for the

people of South Africa.

It was encouraging to meet women contractors on site and

simultaneously very disappointing to learn that some administrative

shortcomings that were identified some two years prior to our visit

had still not been sorted out. I refer here, of course, to the fact

that a major problem with this project has been late payments to

contractors and other service providers. This has led to emerging

contractors and other SMMEs involved in the project being unable to
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 57 of 141

fulfil their financial obligations as one particular woman

contractor testified. In this instance, the MEC agreed to take this

matter up and it would be interesting to know if this chronic

problem has been resolved.

The lack of consumer education is often mentioned as a stumbling

block in the delivery of services. Beneficiaries of government‘s

social programmes are generally not aware of their rights or

obligations related to such benefits. As an MP from Gauteng it was

therefore with pride that I attended, together with the committee,

the launch of a consumer education programme, which coincided with

our visit.

On day three we were introduced to another redevelopment project in

Gauteng, the Bekkersdal Urban Renewal Project. This project was

still very much at its planning stage and it appeared that closer

co-operation between departments was indeed taking place on this

project. Our committee was once again fortunate in that our visit

coincided with the opening ceremony of the Bekkersdal information

hub. However, community members expressed concern over the slow

progress made with regard to housing delivery concerning this

project and lack of employment opportunities specifically for

community members.

Day four was spent visiting social housing projects within the

boundaries of the Ekurhuleni and Johannesburg metropolitan councils.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 58 of 141

What was interesting was that one of the projects hailed by

Ekurhuleni as a success story appeared to be occupied largely by

beneficiaries not meant to benefit from this subsidised housing.

We had the opportunity to physically inspect some of the units.

Judging from the appliances and other furnishings, the occupants

were clearly in a higher income bracket than what was required. This

was also evident from the vehicles in the residence parking areas –

some of those were of German origin. I wonder if this could be the

reason that this development is a success story.

Some residents had a much higher income than the maximum required to

qualify and this therefore leads to a much lower default rate.

However, if this situation is not monitored, controlled and

rectified, the flip side is that the more deserving tenant is denied

access to state-subsidised housing.

There are a number of recommendations at the end of this report. In

hindsight, it would have been fitting for us to remark on the

progress made regarding these recommendations in this debate, almost

one year later. Perhaps, hon Kota, the committee should review all

recommendations made to date and follow up on their implementation.

I thank you. [Applause.]

Mmz D C MABENA: Sihlalo, aboNgqongqotjhe abahloniphekileko, malunga

aqakathekileko wePalamende, kulithabo kimi njengelunga le-ANC ukuba
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 59 of 141

nezwi ngomma onomhlane obanzi nonebele elimunyisa woke amaSewula

Afrika, ngitjho i-Gauteng province. Lapho kunetjhuguluko elinengi

empilweni zabantu ekade batlhaga ngaphasi kombuso wegandelelo.

I-Alexandra ngenye yeendawo lapho kusabonakala khona umtlhago

ngebanga lombuso omdala. Izindlu ezakhiwa ngurhulumende wakade

ziyawa ngombana abantu abanandawo, nokufuna umsebenzi babona kugcono

ukwakha imikhukhu endaweni enye nenye evulekileko ngenkolweni, duze

ne-Jukskei River, London Road, lapho kulahlelwa khona iinzibi e-

S‘tswetla nalapho kukhanjwa khona nca nendlela.

Umthetho-sisekelo weSewula Afrika isigatjana 26 Act 108 of 1996 uthi

woke umuntu kulengabanda yakwethu unelungelo lokuba nomrhoswana

wakhe ocalekako. Umbuso weGauteng province ukulingisa ubutjhapho

begandelelo weza ne-Alexandra Renewal Project, ebukufanele ithathe

itjhumi leminyaka kodwa wazibophelela ngokuthi izayiqeda ngo-2009,

kwabakhona neengibe endleleni. (Translation of Ndebele paragraphs


[Mr D C MABENA: Chairperson, hon Ministers and hon members of

Parliament, it‘s a pleasure for me as a member of the ANC to say a

word about the Gauteng province which is the engine of the economy

and has the power to feed all South Africans. There are remarkable

changes in the lives of people who were afflicted by poverty under

the previous government.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 60 of 141

Alexandra is one of the areas where poverty is still prevalent

because of the previous government. Houses that were built by the

previous government are falling apart and people do not have a place

to stay. When searching for employment they find that it is better

to build a shack where they find a vacant piece of land which close

to the schools, near to the Jukskei River or London Road, at e-

S‘tswetla dumping site and on pavements.

Section 26 of the Constitution of South Africa, Act 108 of 1996,

stipulates that everyone has the right to adequate housing. To

rectify the damage caused by the apartheid government the Gauteng

government launched the Alexandra Renewal Project, that was supposed

to be completed in the next ten years but the government committed

itself to completing the project in the year 2009. Noticeable

challenges have been encountered in the process.]

Some of the challenges included the following: different programmes

in the department were not talking to one another, thus not

maximising the impact with regards to work; inconsistent funding;

change of faces from communities themselves, in terms of community

participation; and scarcity of land. To speed up this process and

delivery, the province decided upon one political head to lead and

that was the workaholic MEC for housing in Gauteng.

In order to accommodate 350 000 people within greater Alexandra,

steps that were taken included the establishment of a consortium
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 61 of 141

that assists small and emerging local contractors and their

capacitation. This consortium also ensures that they are absorbed

into the building labour market.

Abanye sebaba ngabo somakontraka abazijameleko. [Some have become

well-established contractors.]

Another step taken was to ensure that there should be a proper

representation of all the people of Alexandra, young and old.

Ukwakhiwa kwe-London Road bridge kuphilile, abangu 2 000 ababehlala

eduze ne-London Road banikelwe izindlu zabo, abangu 5 500 ababehlala

duze ne-Juskei River basusiwe kuleyo ndawo eyingozi bayiswa eSoweto.

[The construction of the London Road Bridge has been completed, 2000

people who were living near London Road have been given their

houses, and 5 500 people who were staying near the Jukskei River

have been moved from that dangerous area to Soweto.]

Beautiful parks have been built along the banks of the river and

2 000 trees donated by Trees for Africa have been planted along the

river bank and East Bank townships, and existing dwellings are being

upgraded. Other activities include redevelopment of hostels,

development of affordable rental accommodation and conversion of

hostels into family units, that is Helen Joseph, M1 and M2, where we

met Mrs Melita Raseale – a woman contractor who was on duty.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 62 of 141

This programme will improve the lives of 3 286 households and, most

importantly, integrate them into the surrounding areas. There is

also a transit facility that has been developed to accommodate

households that are being relocated out of Alexandra who qualify for

housing benefits but whose houses are not yet ready.

South Africa belongs to all who live in it. There are remnants of

pressure groupings of no particular origin who need not be supported

by South Africans. They always misconstrue the government‘s

reallocation processes as forced removals and always try to give

this initiative negative publicity, for example the relocation of

people from Alexandra to Soweto.

The Ekurhuleni Metro – which has a population of 744 000, 112

informal settlements and 122 000 families – has vowed to eradicate

homelessness and informal settlements by 2014. One of the challenges

the metro faces is people who sell their RDP houses and thus

increase the housing backlog. The increase in the rate of

urbanisation leads to land invasion and densification of the

existing informal settlements.

Twelve settlements have been redesigned to allow for densification

using the Gauteng province‘s community builder programme, which is

in line with the Expanded Public Works Programme. Women, youth and

the disabled have benefited. About 1 400 houses have been delivered
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 63 of 141

and it is hoped that the programme will eradicate informal

settlements within eight years.

Forty-nine disabled persons have been allocated houses with special

facilities and 600 Harry Gwala residents have been relocated to

Chief Albert Luthuli Park Extension 4. Extension 4 consists of 1 514

stands and will accommodate people from the surrounding informal

settlements of Egypt, Beachfront and Emandleni.

The community builder programme will be used to put up top

structures and it is another tool for job creation and skills

transfer. At Nelson Mandela settlement, work has began on upgrading

informal structures in Extension 23 and 24, and 3 312 people in

Madelakufa 1 and 2 have been registered at the metro as approved


In Freedom Park, 1 054 people have been registered. Vusimuzi hostel

in Tembisa has been converted into family units. Khutsong women‘s

hostel and Buyafuthi hostel have been upgraded into affordable

rental stock. Soshanguve hostel, in Tshwane, is 95% complete and the

building is ongoing. Saulsville is 60% complete and 50% of the

builders are women contractors. It has been named as the best

practice project. Mohlakeng, in Randfontein municipality, Kagiso, in

Mogale city and Diepkloof, in Johannesburg will start soon.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 64 of 141

Mogale city is currently relocating families to 4 400 stands where

the infrastructure for essential services has been completed in

Rietvlei 3. A total of 963 toilet structures have been completed in

record time at Tsepong proper in the Sebokeng area, and this work

was done by a woman contractor. The installation of top structures

will be commencing soon. During 2004-05 Mogale city delivered 2 300

houses. Other developments are in Mamelodi Extension 5,6 and 22.

Lastly, the transfer of state-owned houses under the discount

benefit scheme is progressing fairly. Transfers are taking place in

all regions of Gauteng. Because Africon delayed the process, the

system is now being done in-house. There is an 80% success rate in

beneficiary education by way of workshops. Mogale city has

incorporated a youth learnership programme into housing, and 200

youths are undergoing training in building skills and housing co-

operatives. Ngiyathokoza. [Thank you.] [Applause.]

Mr B W DHLAMINI: Chairperson, hon members, the report that we are

considering today on the provincial oversight visit to Gauteng and

other provinces on the provision of housing has highlighted

successes and challenges. Owing to the fact that we are dealing with

more than 40 years of housing backlogs left by the late National

Party, we should not be allergic to constructive criticism and

feedback that we get from these visits, like the proper allocation

of the RDP housing, quality of housing, nondelivery and other

6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 65 of 141

In Gauteng there are three urban renewal projects, Alexandra,

Bekkersdal and Everton. The nature of these interventions is such

that challenges and difficulties are to be expected and the

challenge is not to politically sweep them under the carpet but to

deal with them as they arise as we have witnessed in the Gauteng


The Premier of Gauteng has committed his government that by 2008 all

52 public hostels will be either totally converted into family units

or upgraded into self-contained units with privacy and restored

dignity of its residents. For this financial year the MEC for

housing in Gauteng, Ms Mokoanyane, has committed her department to

complete 5 000 units.

While this is recommendable, the only concern to the IFP is the

practical implementation, given the lack of capacity in some

municipalities, as was mentioned by members here. Hostels should be

part and parcel of the broader community and not be little islands.

I think the problem here, most especially with hostel upgrading, is

the integrated development strategy. It is not only the baby of the

Department of Housing. I think the Department of Provincial and

Local Government should come in, more specifically for

6 SEPTEMBER 2005                                                   PAGE: 66 of 141

The mushrooming of residential areas with no economic development is

also a concern. If you look at Gauteng from Soweto to Everton-

Vereeniging, there is the development of residential areas with no

economic development for people to be able to work around their

areas. People in Orange Farm should be employed in Vereeniging and

Johannesburg. Their money is being spent on transport, more than on

other necessities. We think there should be economic development

that accompanies residential development. With these few comments,

we support the report. Thank you. [Applause.]

Ms N J NGELE: “Kuya kuba kho izindlu, ukhuseleko nobuntofontofo.” Mhlalingaphambili nabakungqongileyo,

bhotani.   [―There shall be houses, security and comfort.‖ Chairperson

and hon members, I salute you.]

As South Africans, we will always be grateful to President Kaunda

for the immeasurable support he provided to our struggle for

liberation. Zambia was our home and as such South Africa is your

home. Given the contribution that Nepad plays in supporting the

upliftment of the people of the African continent, it is not

surprising to see such projects, such as the UN Habitat, initiated

by Comrade Kaunda.

Asilo qonga lokubalisa iintsomi eli ndimi kulo. Bonke abantu

abangenazindlu eMzantsi Afrika baza kuba nazo. EPitoli kukho iziza

ezingama-760. Yonke enye into sele yenziwe, abantu baza kwakhelwa.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                             PAGE: 67 of 141

Siyambulela uMphathiswa wezeZindlu ngokunika abantu isidima ngokuthi

abanike izindlu. Ewe, izindlu ezakhiweyo azikho mgangathweni, kodwa

ngenxa yeqhinga elibizwa ngesilungu ngokuba yi-breaking new ground,

abantu baza kufumana izindlu ezisemgangathweni. (Translation of

Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[This podium on which I am standing, is not a platform to tell

stories.   All the people who do not have houses in South Africa are

going to have houses. There are 760 sites in Pretoria. All other

outstanding issues have been addressed, and people will be allocated


We thank the Minister of Housing for restoring the dignity of the

people by providing houses for them. Yes, it is correct that the

houses that were erected are not up to standard, however, as a

consequence of the new diplomacy, which is referred to in English as

―breaking new ground‖, people are going to get decent houses.]

The housing challenge in this country is immense and is an

undeniable legacy of the previous system of apartheid. Many

experiences have been gained and many lessons learnt. As the ANC we

are on the right track as we are translating the 2004 manifesto into

reality. The contract we entered into with our people to create work

and fight poverty is making a difference in a big way.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 68 of 141

Through our struggle as the ANC, we can say today: South Africa is a

democratic country, with a government based on the will of all the

people. The rights of women are recognised and find increasing

expression in real life. We are building a caring nation as the ANC

and the dignity of our people is restored. This is true, as millions

of our people renew the mandate of the ANC to do more on delivery to

the poorest of the poor.

The DA may not notice the difference that the ANC is making to the

ordinary people of this country. [Interjections.] Don‘t shout at me.

I have never shouted at you. Talk to me. [Interjections.] The DA, I

repeat, will not notice the difference that the ANC is making to the

ordinary poor people of this country, because they have been

enjoying the privileges that our people were denied. And that is


Through housing provision, many jobs are created and this is better

than what you gave them - if you ever gave them anything. Through

housing many jobs are created, and this makes a direct contribution

to the second economy. Women are involved in construction companies

and this is what we in the ANC call a better life for all.


Phendula! Ngowuthula wena! [Respond! You are supposed to keep quiet!]
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 69 of 141

Women have been marginalised for a very long time, hence the ANC is

doing something concrete about this. Improvements in the quality of

life of our people require that we take measure to increase the

volume and quality of the investment in infrastructure. To make sure

that our freedom becomes meaningful to our people, we must translate

the Freedom Charter into reality. In the past 11 years the ANC-led

government has managed to build more than a million houses, and in

this programme, other services like water, electricity and

sanitation were delivered.

As the ANC we have called on our people to join in a popular

movement for reconstruction and development, run on the basis of the

traditional African practices of the Letsima and Vukuzenzele

campaigns. In doing so, we are building more houses to accommodate

the poor people of our country, whom our oppressors had treated as

disposable commodities. [Interjections.] Are you one of them? I

didn‘t know. I was not aware. Thank you for answering.

It is true by engaging in the people‘s contract we are faced with

many challenges, which require a sustained effort over an extended

period of time. In this debate we are showing the projects that the

ANC-led government is engaged in to make the lives of our people

better. As the ANC we are committed to building for women, because

we believe that it is through creating a secure living environment

for women that we provide a home for the young of this country.

Ultimately, we are convinced that the home is where we plant the
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 70 of 141

seeds of the kind of society we are dreaming of. [Time expired.]


Ms S N SIGCAU: Chairperson, the UDM supports the recommendations in

the report of the Portfolio Committee on Housing, following their

oversight visit to Gauteng province. The need for members to have

access to information on housing to distribute to their

constituencies is self-evident.

As far as the failure of the IDP initiative in Alexandra is

concerned, we find it disturbing that not all departments are taking

their roles seriously. We concur that the matter should not only be

raised in this House but also referred to the interministerial


Often the lack of co-ordination and integration among various

departments is the biggest stumbling block to the implementation of

worthwhile policies. Such an undermining of service delivery is

unacceptable and unavoidable.

The issue of land release remains a problem in the country in

general. This is very sensitive, with many complexities.

In conclusion, the difficulties of high rental and the allocation to

beneficiaries require further attention. Many of the people that

should benefit do not benefit. Thank you, Chairperson.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 71 of 141

Mr T S DODOVU: Mr Chairperson, hon members of Parliament, during the

first decade of democracy, housing policies have evolved to address

the housing challenges, to build quality housing and to establish

compact integrated cities, which work towards desegregation and high

density mixed use development.

These challenges include the enormous size of the housing deficit,

the proliferation of informal settlements, the failure of the

housing markets, the inability to mobilise mortgage finance as well

as the problems associated with urbanisation and population growth.

In order to ameliorate this situation and address these daunting

challenges, we are proud that our government has put in place the

proper legislative and policy instruments, which are unprecedented

in our history.

Maemo a kenyeletsa ho neelana ka disubsidy ho batho ba rona ho etsa

hore matlo ao e leng hore a ahwa ke mmuso wa rona, ke a loketseng

batho ba rona, le ho thusa batho ba batlang ho ikahela matlo. [These

include the granting of subsidies to people to make housing

affordable to them, and to assist those who would like to build

their own houses.]

These instruments also include the establishment of housing

institutions like the National Housing Finance Corporation,
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 72 of 141

Thubelisha Homes, Servcon Housing Solutions, the Social Housing

Foundation, the National Urban Reconstruction and Housing Agency, as

well as the National Home Builders Registration Council. These

institutions are important because they facilitate much-needed

capacity development within the housing sector, and they also act as

secondary housing market and wholesale facilities for the housing

finance system.

During its visit to the Gauteng province, the Portfolio Committee on

Housing had the opportunity to interact with some of these housing

institutions. In addition to these measures, the ANC-led government

has adopted the Urban Development Framework and the new housing

strategy called ―breaking new ground‖, which is a plan that seeks to

build settlements for good human habitation and to indeed build

communities in these settlements.

Our visit to Bekkersdal, as part of the parliamentary oversight

role, has reinforced our conviction that the people, once empowered,

can make an important contribution to the improvement of their own

living conditions. The degree of openness and friendliness with

which we were received by the Bekkersdal political and community

leadership, reflected a sincere and deep-rooted wish for the

successful implementation of the Bekkersdal Urban Renewal Project.

The Bekkersdal Urban Renewal Project should be seen in the context

of the epic battles that the community of Bekkersdal has waged in
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 73 of 141

the destruction of the system of apartheid and colonialism. The

people of Bekkersdal, under the able leadership of Thomas Letlhake,

A T Thubela and Jackson Nkuna, made an immense and immeasurable

contribution in destroying the vicious doctrine of race supremacy.

With a budget of about R1,2 million, the Bekkersdal Urban Renewal

Project seeks to resettle close to 18 000 families who live in

informal settlements. It seeks to eradicate the bucket system, which

is a health hazard to the communities, and it seeks to expand the

skills capacity of the people. Most importantly, the renewal project

seeks to create job opportunities in the wake of job losses because

of declining mining activity in the area.

Once the Bekkersdal Urban Renewal Project is successfully

implemented, it will integrate the town of Westonaria to negate the

apartheid-induced segregation, fragmentation and inequality. It will

focus on integrated planning, rebuilding and upgrading of Bekkersdal

Township and its informal settlements.

The Bekkersdal Urban Renewal Project will improve housing and

infrastructure. It will alleviate environmental hazards, encourage

investment in Bekkersdal, and increase access to finance, social

development, and the building of habitable and safe communities.

This project will indeed maintain safety and security, and design

habitable urban communities.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 74 of 141

When the portfolio committee visited Bekkersdal, it realised that

the promotion of economic development was an important cornerstone

of the urban renewal project. In this regard, the project aims at

enhancing the capacity of Bekkersdal, to build on the local strength

to generate greater local economic activity, to achieve

sustainability, to alleviate poverty, to increase access to informal

economic opportunities, and to maximise direct employment

opportunities, and the multiplier effect from implementing the

development project.

To this end, our visit coincided with the opening of the Bekkersdal

information hub by the MEC for housing in Gauteng, Ms Nomvula

Mokoanyane. This information hub already serves as a resource centre

for the community.

Notwithstanding the good work done in this regard, there are,

however, weaknesses in the implementation of the project, and these

need immediate attention. These weaknesses include the slow delivery

of the project, poor co-ordination and communication between the

municipality and the provincial government, lack of skills and the

lack of clarity on the roles and responsibilities of different


It is of paramount importance, therefore, to put measures in place

to address these challenges. In the memory of Thomas Letlhake, A T

Thubela, and Jackson Nkuna, and in recognition of the immense
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 75 of 141

contribution that they made, the Gauteng government and the

Westonaria municipality has to be seized with the resolutions of

these issues, and successfully implement the Bekkersdal Urban

Renewal Project. Municipalities like Merafong, Potchefstroom,

Makwasi Hill, Ventersdorp and Klerksdorp, can learn from these

experiences and emulate the example of the Bekkersdal Urban Renewal


There are many deficiencies in the analysis of the DA in terms of

how they are moving with these particular issues. In dealing with

these complex matters, the DA has unfortunately chosen the path of

pandering to populism, by attempting to discredit, undermine, and

ridicule the good work that the ANC government is doing in this


The DA always projects a picture of might and arrogance. Partly, it

is the face of most oppressors in human history, partly it is to

conceal that they must know that their strategy in the long run is

doomed. Sooner or later, the DA will explode. The collapse of their

strategy will unfortunately be enhanced by its own contradictions.

Our priority in the circumstances should be to attend to these

housing challenges, despite what the right-wing parties like the DA

are doing by broadcasting propaganda, unashamedly based on gross

6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 76 of 141

By directing these vitriolic attacks and laying these unfounded

charges, they merely want to pose as the sole genuine

representatives of the people. These hostile inventions directed

against the ANC are created so that the DA can be seen to represent

the genuine progressive agenda, while the ANC is bent on betraying

the cause of the revolution, by not providing adequate housing to

the poor.

The hon member of the DA, unfortunately, should not go around

carrying the notion in his head that the DA has a special

responsibility to be a competent watchdog over the ANC government,

thinking that we will sit in helpless surrender, leaving us as

nothing but instruments in the hands of whoever is controlling us.

We have a responsibility to defend the ANC against this onslaught of

the DA, because we are on course to ensure that we direct all our

efforts in terms of making sure that we succeed. Thank you, Deputy

Speaker. [Applause.]

Mr T LIKOTSI: Deputy Speaker, the housing report as tabled here

raises a broad debate on the challenges faced in this respect. We

appreciate attempts made by government to address this matter,

although at a snail‘s pace.

This brings us to the question of considering the type and quality

of houses we build. The Gauteng province is the worst affected

province in terms of badly built houses, both in nature and quality.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 77 of 141

It is the province with the most and the worst informal settlements

a person can think of. A few examples of this are houses in Duduza,

Orange Farm, Bram Fischer, etc.

This challenge of housing must be tackled head-on if we are to live

a nonviolent life in our areas. I want, without any fear of

contradiction, to agree with Minister Lindiwe Sisulu that the

municipalities and provinces are failing the nation in the low pace

of housing delivery, and that housing must be a national competency.

This may improve the acceleration of human settlement and entrench

the principle of accountability. There is a vast difference between

quantity and quality. We choose quality. [Applause.]

Mr R B BHOOLA: Madam Deputy Speaker, the report and its

recommendations display the committee‘s observations and concern

about the development of housing and enable the department to

identify successes and loopholes in its delivery.

We are especially glad that these visits also sought to monitor the

involvement of women in the housing delivery process. In view of

this, it is felt that the recommendations made could greatly benefit

housing in the Gauteng province.

We find it necessary that the suggested housing brochures be made

available to us, so that we may return to our constituencies with

the necessary information as to successes, the targets being met and
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 78 of 141

loopholes being addressed. This would allow for transparency and

confidence in delivery. The speeding up of land release is also

supported. The MF supports the IDP issue regarding stakeholders

being taken up by the House.

As far as the funding issue in Bekkersdal and Alexandra is

concerned, we agree that it needs to be speeded up so that delivery

is made possible. The MF supports the follow-up visit to Bekkersdal,

noting the committee‘s pending issues in the area. We firmly agree

that the necessary skills need to be localised for housing in the


Further, we acknowledge the portfolio committee‘s note on the

poverty trap with regard to Bekkersdal, and we feel that this needs

to be addressed urgently as we want to get out of poverty, not back

into it. I thank you.

Mr G D SCHNEEMANN: Deputy Speaker, Ministers, Deputy Ministers,

comrades and hon members, since 1994 over 370 000 houses have been

built in Gauteng. Today over 90% of households have access to water;

80% have access to basic sanitation; 73% have access to electricity;

and 80% have access to weekly refuse removal.

In addition, during the period 1994 to 2003, 295 000 stands were

serviced and 277 000 houses were transferred. By June of 2004, the

living conditions of some 2,5 million people had been positively
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 79 of 141

enhanced through the housing delivery programme in Gauteng. This was

the situation in October 2004 and, today, almost a year later, there

has been considerable progress in delivering housing and basic


The Gauteng department of housing has taken the necessary steps to

ensure that the housing delivery programme in the province is in

line with the ―breaking new ground‖ strategy announced by Minister

Sisulu in 2004. It has also committed itself to ensuring that no

informal settlements exist in Gauteng by 2014.

This clearly indicates the advances that have been and will be made

in improving the living conditions of Gauteng residents. It also

tangibly demonstrates the care and compassion that our government

has as it continues to improve the living conditions of all South


It is against this background that the statement by the leader of

the IFP, the hon Buthelezi, and I quote, ―that many sections of

society had a greater empathy with the poor during the apartheid era

than the ruling party has now‖, are indeed strange, to say the


Under the apartheid rule of the then National Party, forced removals

took place, displacing countless thousands of people - the majority

of whom were African. Separate development took place through the
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 80 of 141

Group Areas Act. At times the then National Party demolished more

houses than it built. Township areas were far removed and lacked the

necessary infrastructure and facilities that help to create a

vibrant and sustainable society. This does not represent an empathy

with the poor – it represents the exact opposite.

When the Portfolio Committee on Housing visited Gauteng last year,

the Brickfields housing project in Newtown was under construction

and Cosmo City was in the final planning stages. Today, Brickfields

is complete, and construction work has started on Cosmo City. Both

of these developments represent the ANC commitments made in its 2004

election manifesto to provide more subsidised housing and to

introduce medium-density housing closer to places of work.

The Brickfields housing project in Johannesburg will provide much-

needed rental accommodation units within the city centre. In

addition, Brickfields also forms part of the efforts of government

to stop the decay of inner cities and, in turn, create vibrant

cities where people, both rich and poor, can live and work.

The decay of the inner city of Johannesburg started in the 1980s and

was allowed to continue under the leadership of the then DP, which

is now the DA. It is the ANC-governed Johannesburg Metropolitan

Council, together with the Gauteng provincial government, which has

taken steps to clean up the mess left behind.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 81 of 141

The first beneficiaries will move shortly to Cosmo City, which is

situated near Johannesburg in the area of Randburg. Cosmo City is

one of the nine human settlement projects announced by Minister

Sisulu, which forms part of the ―breaking new ground‖ strategy. It

will comprise some 5 000 low-cost homes, together with bank-financed

homes, rental housing, social housing and medium-density housing.

Cosmo City will not just comprise rows of homes, but will include

all the necessary infrastructure such as roads, water, sanitation

and electricity, as well as the necessary social infrastructure such

as schools, clinics, sports facilities, police stations and

community centres.

There is an air of excitement amongst the beneficiaries who come

from the Zevenfontein

and River Bend informal areas. They have been waiting patiently for

the past seven years, whilst local residents‘ associations have

tried to do everything in their power to stop them from having the

same rights as they do, namely security of tenure and the right to

have access to adequate housing. Both Brickfields and Cosmo City

give realisation to one of the demands of the Freedom Charter,

namely that ―There shall be houses, security and comfort‖.

Lawo maqembu angazihlanganisi nomgubho woMqulu weNkululeko asahamba

ngendlela endala futhi awanandaba nabantu abahluphekayo. [Ihlombe.]

[Those political parties that do not involve themselves in the
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                             PAGE: 82 of 141

Freedom Charter celebrations are operating in the old order and

don‘t care about poor people. [Applause.]]

At the opening of the Brickfields development, President Mbeki said

the following, and I quote:

 We have, among others, an urgent challenge of bringing to a stop

 the prorich housing development strategies that ensure that the

 best located land that is close to all the best facilities is

 always available to the rich; a situation where the best land is

 allocated especially to create gated communities and golf estates,

 while the poor can only access dusty, semideveloped land far away

 from modern infrastructure.

This statement echoed the statements by Minister Sisulu during her

budget speech in this House on 17 May, when she said that all

housing developments not subsidised through state funding should

allocate 20% of the development to affordable housing.

There are some in this House and most notably the DA who have been

most vocal in their opposition to the statement of the President,

and yet in the Portfolio Committee on Housing have not indicated any

view in opposition to what Minister Sisulu announced. Again, they

clearly demonstrate their lack of empathy for the poor. Through

their opposition, they are saying that the poor, the majority of

whom are African, should forever be relegated to the outskirts of
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 83 of 141

city centres and not be allowed to integrate with the rest of

society. [Interjections.] It is true.

Whilst we have made advances in improving the living conditions of

millions of South Africans, we are still faced with the challenge of

reducing the estimated backlog of some two million housing units.

Whilst we have the correct policies and strategies in place, it is

in the implementation phase where we must focus our attention. This

entails the commitment of all role-players, including officials who

work in the different spheres of government, to ensure that the

delivery of housing is increased, that a quality product is produced

and that delays are minimised.

I-ANC iyobenza njalo ikhuphula abantu baseNingizimu Afrika.

Ngiyabonga kakhulu. [Ihlombe.] [The ANC will continue to uplift

South African people. Thank you very much. [Applause.]]

Debate concluded.

Mrs M M MADUMISE: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move on behalf of the

Chief Whip of the Majority Party:

 That the report be adopted.

Motion agreed to.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                               PAGE: 84 of 141

Report accordingly adopted.




Mr C T FROLICK: Madam Deputy Speaker and hon members, during the

course of the year the Portfolio Committee on Sport and Recreation

undertook seven visits to the provinces. During this debate we will

focus on the visits to Mpumalanga, the North West, Limpopo, Gauteng

and the Free State. We are in the process of completing the

provincial visits. We will soon be going to the Eastern Cape, and we

will complete the visit to the Western Cape.

The purpose of these ongoing visits is to measure the readiness of

provinces in preparing for the 2010 Soccer World Cup, and to

ascertain whether moneys paid by the department to federations in

the form of transfer payments reach the clubs they are intended for.

The committee also focused on assessing the condition of facilities

built by the department through its Building for Sport and

Recreation programme and their accessibility to local communities.

A key objective of the department is to promote the participation of

all South Africans in local and international sport and recreation

programmes through its own programmes and that of associated
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 85 of 141

organisations. To achieve this objective, the department introduced

a major national mass-participation programme called Siyadlala.

The committee conducted in loco visits to centres where the

programmes are implemented and was exposed to well-organised events

where we met excited participants and volunteers who conduct the

programme on behalf of the department. Thousands of citizens from

all age groups are participating, and they commended the government

for taking this initiative. However, the department must attend to

certain challenges, which we encountered and which impact negatively

on the programme. This issue will be dealt with later in the debate.

Another focus area for the committee was to meet with local sports

councils and federations. Concerns must be raised about the lack of

support sports councils get from municipalities where they are often

viewed as an unnecessary nuisance. This leads to a breakdown in

communication between the sports councils and authorities on

reaching a common understanding on matters affecting sport. As a

result, scarce resources are often misdirected to programmes and

projects, which do not have the necessary or desired impact on local


The national and provincial departments need to pay specific

attention to the serious capacity problems experienced by sports

councils. The need exists for the department to develop and

implement capacity-building programmes to address this situation.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 86 of 141

The delegation met with several local sports administrators who work

from the boots of their cars to run programmes with no back-up


The membership of sports councils is also an area of concern in that

very often citizens from established federations and advantaged

communities fail to participate in decision-making processes

affecting their lives. We therefore need to reiterate the need for

all people, irrespective of their race and social status, to become

part of these community forums.

Recently we witnessed the establishment of the SA Sports

Confederation and Olympic Committee, Sascoc. This is in line with

the recommendations of the ministerial task team, as endorsed by

Cabinet in 2003. Sascoc is operating already as an NGO to serve as

an umbrella body for high-performance sport and includes affiliates

from all sports federations and macro bodies.

The committee had an initial meeting with Sascoc and its president,

and a few problems were raised during this infancy stage of its

operations. Similar problems were raised during the oversight visits

to provinces in which stakeholders brought to our attention the

uncertainty which prevails at grass-roots level with regard to the

future role and responsibility of Sascoc in provinces and the role

and impact that it will have on local sports forums.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 87 of 141

Federations and other sports bodies expressed concern about the lack

of information and direction from the umbrella body. We must guard

against Sascoc becoming a distant structure that takes decisions

without the necessary consultation and popular support.

The leadership of Sascoc must pay particular attention to the widely

held belief that small federations with a dismal transformation

record are now in control of the body and pay little attention to

devise strategies to address the slow pace of transformation in

certain federations. It is noteworthy that none of the major

federations serve on the executive committee of Sascoc and, as a

result, it is at the mercy of the whims of the small federations,

which dominate the leadership.

The past 12 years have highlighted the need for overarching policy

and legislative formulation for sport. Such legislation will guide

all macro bodies, national and provincial federations and clubs on

the need to transform sport by making it accessible to all South


The absence of such legislation has created the space for

federations to emerge with conflicting agendas and timeframes on the

future of sport. The aim must be to provide equal opportunities for

all South Africans. Only then we will experience deep

6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 88 of 141

Study tours to provinces have also allowed members of the committee

to interact with teachers from all communities. The level of

uncertainty on the future of school sport amongst them is a source

of concern. The future role, function and existence of the United

School Sport Association of SA have been under the spotlight for the

past few months, especially in the light of the shift in the

strategic focus of the Department of Sport and Recreation and the

Department of Education to reassume responsibility for school sport.

There is little doubt that Ussasa has played a major role in the

arena of school sport. The appeal of the school sport movement must

reach all communities, and teachers in service of the department

must lead the process.

We therefore call on the department to tap into the capacity and

experience of Ussasa in implementing the new school sport

dispensation. Vast experience and knowledge are available from this

dedicated pool of volunteers. The department also needs to share its

new vision with provincial departments and should embark on road

shows to popularise the new structure and its operations.

During previous Budget Vote debates, the portfolio committee raised

the concern that major federations should guard against channelling

the bulk of their resources to the professional side of the sport at

the expense of amateur competitions and development programmes.

Federations ignored the advice, and what is this situation looking
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 89 of 141

like today? Everywhere we went people complained by saying that

development funds to promote the sport in disadvantaged areas had

been slashed, while resources had been directed to support


Sponsors who funded development programmes have terminated their

sponsorships. Amateur unions bear the brunt of the budget cutbacks

and, as a result, hundreds of administrative staff, ground staff,

coaches and talent scouts, 90% of whom are black, have either lost

their jobs or will lose their jobs very soon. Fewer games are being

played by amateur teams at grass-roots level, and clubs from

disadvantaged areas are underfunded to such an extent that they

cannot complete their league fixtures.

In conclusion, we need to express our gratitude to the various MECs

in the provinces, the heads of departments, the provincial

federations, mayors, councillors and local sport structures for the

open, frank and transparent discussions that we had during our

interactions with them in the provinces. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr S J MASANGO: Deputy Speaker, our oversight visit started in

Limpopo, and I must say that it actually has given us an idea of

what is happening in sport in different provinces. There are quite a

lot of challenges facing this country on the issue of sport.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 90 of 141

Something that I think we should change as a portfolio committee is

that we should decide which municipality we want to do an oversight

visit on. This should not be a provincial department decision. I

don‘t think it is good that the provincial department decides for us

which municipality to visit. This decision should be the committee‘s


I think one of our objectives is to check if information and

communication from national and provincial departments reach the

officials at local level. In some, if not most, instances the

questions directed at local officials were answered by provincial


I remember in one province we had to stop the provincial official

from answering questions directed at the local officials. The local

officials didn‘t have a clue about what was happening on the ground.

This is a sign of a lack of communication from the top downwards.

The MEC for sport in Limpopo mentioned funding as a problem in

advancing sport in the area. From our interactions with some of the

members on the Lottery Fund, it was found that it was absolutely

impossible to get funds from the Lottery if you didn‘t have

financial statements for the past two years. The question is: How

can you have financial statements if you didn‘t have money in the

first place? This is a barrier for rural areas.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                               PAGE: 91 of 141

One should appreciate the Ngoako Ramatlhodi Multipurpose Centre,

which, if completed, looked after and maintained properly, will be

one of the most beautiful indoor game centres in the country. I

recommend this because it is not in Gauteng, not in the Western

Cape, but right there in the rural province where facilities of this

magnitude are not available.

I am appealing to the Minister of Sport and Recreation to reconsider

whether it is in the best interests of sports-loving people to hand

over such a facility to the local municipality to maintain it. We

all know what most municipalities are capable of when it comes to

service delivery and maintenance.

Ussasa is promoting sport from local school level up to national

competition level, but one of the challenges has been the funding of

individual children who are excelling in a particular sport and who

are from poor families. A child has to be from a richer family to

compete up to provincial and national level.

This is not good for our country, and it is not in line with the

vision of the Sport and Recreation department. We must point out

that this is happening in the rural areas where parents can‘t even

afford a school uniform. I think the national department should

address this problem as a matter of urgency.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 92 of 141

When it comes to mass participation, the challenge that remains is

funding. In almost all the areas we visited where mass participation

is taking place, there is a lack of equipment in order for children

to play. I remember the chairperson of the committee instructing the

provincial officials to buy balls for the children as they were

using torn and wrapped plastic balls.

As much as too little is being done to build facilities, it is

unforgivable not to maintain those already in existence. The Charles

Mopedi Stadium and the surrounding buildings are neglected and in a

chaotic state. This sports facility is one of the best in Qwaqwa. It

is neglected purely because the provincial government thought it was

the responsibility of the local government to maintain it, and the

local government thought it was the provincial government‘s job. The

more the condition of the stadium deteriorates, the more costly it

is to bring it back to its original condition.

Another point of concern is that sports facilities are being built

without taking into consideration whether there is another sports

facility in existence nearby that is not being used and sometimes

not maintained. This is also a waste of resources.

Sports facilities are there for sports development at local level.

If they are not used, then what purpose are they serving? The

stadium at Glenmore in Mpumalanga was used once and that was for a

musical festival. We don‘t build stadiums for the local council to
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 93 of 141

make money out of them, nor for music festivals, or political

rallies, but for the development of sport in that specific locality.

Again, let‘s bring sports facilities to where people are staying.

Most people don‘t have the money to travel long distances for

training. Therefore it is crucial that facilities are accessible to

the community. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr M M DIKGACWI: Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, hon Deputy Ministers

and hon colleagues, the misallocation of sports and recreation

facilities in South African society constitutes one of the cruellest

legacies of apartheid. This continues to inhibit the development of

and access to sport in these communities.

The Municipal Infrastructure Grant does not assist the cause to

enhance sport as a vehicle in transforming the previously

disadvantaged. For example, we are told that the white clubs have

leases from the municipalities for at least 99 years and only pay

R10 a month. This therefore means the prerogative to make the

facilities available depends solely on the discretion of that white


Furthermore, in the Model C schools which are now dominated by black

and coloured kids, the facilities are being ignored and not

maintained as they were when such schools were occupied by whites

only. Surely, hon members, we have a problem, and this problem does
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 94 of 141

not end here. There are these social clubs like Rotary and the

Lions, which also own facilities and are asking exorbitant amounts

to rent them out, which automatically excludes our people. We need

to encourage municipalities to include sport facilities in IDPs, and

to ensure that they are accessible, and appropriate to women and

people with disabilities.

Sport and recreation‘s role is to address the government‘s objective

of building a nation united in action for change. I am convinced

that sport in this country is ideally located to play a significant

part in this context. However, in order for sport to fulfil such a

role, transformation of sport should be at the heart of it.

The reality facing us is that unity in sport 11 years down the line

can only be consolidated through transformation. Codes of sport

might be united, but whether they are united in action for change is

a moot point. We were often confronted by ordinary sportsmen and

sportswomen questioning whom the main beneficiaries of unity are.

This raises a host of possibilities, but the undeniable fact is that

a sizeable part of the sporting fraternity is still not enjoying the

fruits of unity.

In response to this the delegation explained the principles of sport

integration and key aspects of sport transformation, particularly

that of moving away from the culture of separate sports facilities

for different race groups. It was pointed out that it is not
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 95 of 141

possible for the government to build facilities for exclusive use by

schools or communities. The government‘s approach is to integrate

sport facilities so that both the schools and the communities can

utilise them. Communities are therefore encouraged to work together

and share available resources.

The biggest problem identified by the delegation was the lack of

communication amongst sport structures and also between sport

structures and local government. The problems regarding the use of

facilities and payment for needs are to be discussed by the

structures and the municipality.

A number of problem areas have been identified with regard to the

delivery of service and facilities. This includes unequal access to

facilities, and the fact that areas on the outer limits of the urban

areas are not as well catered for as other areas, while the quality

of facilities and service varies across the city.

The abolishing of the Building for Sports and Recreation Project

that has been replaced by the MIG, that is the Municipal

Infrastructure Grant, is not working for us, because the same grant

is mostly used for other social needs instead of the sport

facilities that it was meant for. Local government and Sport and

Recreation SA must indeed review this, as it is not working for us.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 96 of 141

Insufficient security at facilities leaves them open to abuse and

misuse. Inadequate maintenance budgets lead to poor upkeep of

facilities. Government must finish up their projects and not leave

without having finished building them. In KwaZulu-Natal, for

instance, the Mpolweni Stadium is an embarrassment because it has

not been completed after three or four years.

Services provided do not take into account the requirements of

users, including cultural, linguistic and age-related needs.

Operating hours do not necessarily meet the needs of users. The

challenges are endless.

Nangona kunjalo abadlali abamnyama bayaphumelela kukubi, kumuncu,

kukrakra kunjalo. Usathana akangekhe abenamandla okubulala italente

yabantu abayinikwe nguThixo. Nditsho naba sinabo oosathana abahamba

ngenyawo behleka, bahlala nathi kodwa abafuni ukuba abantwana bethu

baphumelele. Qhude manikiniki! Makudede ubumnyama kuvele ukhanyo!

(Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)

[Nevertheless, black players triumph over unfavourable conditions.

Evil forces did not succeed in suppressing their talents. I am also

referring to the evil forces amongst us who pretend to be part of us

but have bad wishes for our children. Let the struggle continue! Let

there be light!]
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                             PAGE: 97 of 141

Sport and recreation has the potential to contribute significantly

in addressing national issues of social importance such as sport

against crime, the physical health of the nation, creation of

employment opportunities, etc. The long-term objective of the

portfolio committee is to continue to keep providing oversight in

order to ensure that sport and recreation is a vehicle for social

change and creating a better life for all.

The disaster of Bafana Bafana is an embarrassment, to say the least.

The overall shaking up of the leadership of Safa is of high priority

and government must intervene. Bafana Bafana needs a scenario of

motherland or death. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr B W DHLAMINI: Deputy Speaker, hon members and Ministers, the

provincial oversight‘s visit has identified many positive elements

in the different provinces and municipalities in sport and

recreation programmes and on development and transformation. Several

sports events of mass participation were held, and the provinces

provided assistance to organisations and deserving athletes, and the

provision of facilities is still a big challenge. In almost all

provinces that we visited there is a sport academy that offers

training, but there is a lot of capacity and financial support.

Notwithstanding the positive elements there are a number of

challenges and difficulties that are still faced by the provinces,

among others that the provincial sport and recreation departments
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 98 of 141

are severely underfunded as a result of problems such as provision,

maintenance, upgrading of facilities and the prevention of

vandalism, which cannot be properly identified.

Historically disadvantaged areas and particularly the rural areas

and communities are neglected. Poverty and unemployment negatively

impact upon the ability of these communities to pay for transport

costs to reach distantly located sports facilities and to fully

participate in sport and recreation.

The trend of leasing out sport facilities to the private sector by

local municipalities negatively impacts upon community access to

facilities, as they are either prevented from using these facilities

or unable to pay the high fees required for entry. Many of the best

sport facilities are still located in the formerly white areas

usually out of reach of the communities most in need of them.

The hon Minister for Provincial and Local Government gave an

undertaking in this House that the Building for Sport budget, which

is now part of the Municipal Infrastructure Grant, will be ring-

fenced to make sure that municipalities use this budget for sport

facilities, but this has not materialised. It emerged in all the

provinces that we have visited that there is no budget for sport

facilities in municipalities, because this money has not been ring-

fenced to make sure that municipalities use it for sport facilities.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 99 of 141

The IFP supports the report as a true reflection of what we saw in

the provinces.

In order for the country to avoid the Burkina Faso massacre, I think

it is high time that the Treasury looked seriously at funding sport

in this country. We support, as the IFP, the call for the country to

legislate on sport issues and not leave sport development and

transformation in the hands of the so-called sport administrators. I

thank you. [Applause.]

Mrs D M MOROBI: Madam Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, Deputy Ministers

and members of Parliament, the Portfolio Committee On Sport and

Recreation undertook an oversight visit to provinces. I will be

addressing this House on our findings on two issues, which are mass

participation and women in sport.

In Blouberg Municipality our engagement with them involved their

programme, the utilisation of the MPC. They outlined their

programmes. The co-ordinators are committed people, and their

purpose is to target young people and the games played include

basketball, athletics, indigenous games and others. By then the O R

Tambo games had already started. The municipality was preparing the

under fourteens for the SA Commonwealth Games Association. The

facility lacks equipment and as a result mass participation is

6 SEPTEMBER 2005                           PAGE: 100 of 141

The Jakkalskop Multipurpose Centre was built by NGO sports outreach

coaches in 2001. The communities of the area were fully involved as

they participated during the erection of the facility. The sports

council was invited to the opening of the centre. The community

clubs utilised the facility by playing handball, netball and other

games. Young people are kept safe from criminal activities by

engaging in sport. There is a serious need for security fences and

burglar gates. A shortage of water also prevents the digging of


The delegation was invited by the MEC for sport in Gauteng to attend

the Masakhane games in the Germiston Stadium. The purpose of the

games was to identify talent from wards, districts and provinces.

The Masakhane games are part of the South African games, and each

province has its own team. The delegation was impressed by the

representation of demographics. The participants were also delighted

that presentations were made to the winning teams.

There is the Ratanda Multipurpose Centre in the Sedibeng District,

which is my constituency. The communities in this area are proud of

the facility, a sure sign of ownership. The delegation was impressed

by the facility as it serves its purpose. The participants were

given an opportunity to share their views and challenges with the

6 SEPTEMBER 2005                           PAGE: 101 of 141

In Stanza Bopape in Mamelodi their recreation centre was packed

with participants. Young people, middle-aged people, the elderly and

disabled people were doing aerobics to keep themselves fit and

healthy, and others played indoor games. The facility is fully

utilised daily. The leader of the delegation, Mr Khompela, allowed

them time to share their views, challenges and experiences. They

raised interesting issues. They want to have exchange programmes and

compete with other provinces. The Mamelodi Care for the Aged

accommodates frail and sickly elders who also need transport to take

them to the centre.

In the Free State, Maluti a Phofung, the hubs are in rural areas.

Co-ordinators organised youth to demonstrate activities played like

soccer, handball and some indigenous games, even though there are no

facilities. A hall is used for gymnastics. Teachers and local

communities showed enthusiasm as they exercise for good health and

to improve their shape.

It is crystal clear that we still have a massive shortage of women

to be exposed to sports. A question asked by the delegation was

whether women were not interested in becoming coaches. The response

was that women preferred their spouses to sports. However, gradually

more women coaches and referees are trained. Even in the

parliamentary sports committee there are very few women. [Laughter.]
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                           PAGE: 102 of 141

Bomme, ha re so qete ho itseka. [Ladies, we are not yet through with

the struggle.]

Ngoako Ramahlodi is a new multipurpose centre, which is still in

construction. Of the 110 people employed, 30 are women. Due to the

nature and the stage of construction more women will be employed in

the second phase. They are looking at empowering women in glass

fitting, steel fixing and others. One woman is trained as a

construction supervisor. Our Constitution does not discriminate

against people with disabilities. They are also included in all

these sports.

In Limpopo, people with disabilities participated in a sports event

in Sweden. They were the pride of the province. Ngoako Ramahlodi‘s

MPC has railings to accommodate wheelchairs. They are disability


Our finding is that women‘s sports are not active in most provinces.

Mass participation programmes also address social programmes in

communities. Where there are no facilities, especially in the rural

areas, lovers of sport use open grounds. Talent is identified.

The committee has made recommendations, of which I will mention a

few, namely that the national department should maintain the

facilities, see to it that the facilities are accessible to the

communities and also to disabled persons. Recreational activities
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                           PAGE: 103 of 141

such as those performed at Stanza Bopape and Maluti a Phofung should

be encouraged in all the provinces. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M T LIKOTSI: Deputy Speaker, the PAC accepts the report of the

committee as a true reflection of their oversight visits to the said


Maemo a mabala a rona a dipapadi a mabe. Bana ba rona ba ntse ba

bapala mobung, ha bana ba makgowa bona ba bapala mehlweng kapa

thefong. [The condition of our sports fields is appalling. Our

children are still playing on sandy sports fields that are

unsuitable, whereas their white counterparts are playing on lawns or


For us to proudly say we are free, a drastic change to the

inequalities of the past must be effected without any form of doubt

or hesitation. The PAC may agree to the processes of transformation,

but other things need paradigm shifts by those who are in power. We

must enforce new ways of thinking on leaders, which may restore the

dignity of human beings and destroy a class society from its roots.

Mabala a dipapadi a moo ho dulang batho ba Afrika ha a lokiswe, ho

fedisa botlokotsebe metseng ya rona. Ke a leboha. [Sports fields

where Africans live are not renovated, to stop the crime in our

locations. Thank you.]
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                           PAGE: 104 of 141

Mr R B BHOOLA: Madam Deputy Speaker, the MF proudly applauds the

Portfolio Committee on Sport and Recreation for their oversight in

the areas covered in their report. It appears from the report that

the portfolio committee carried out thorough research into the

situation in these areas and left no stone unturned. With such

determination, the MF is confident that sport and recreation will

effectively reach every corner of South Africa and the sector will

be the democracy it belongs to.

Sport in South Africa is a great part of the spirit of our nation

and the MF would love to strengthen the spirit by ensuring the

delivery of the necessary facilities in all areas, poverty stricken

and affluent. We have always felt that recreation and sporting

activities serve as a great deterrent, for our youth, from being

absorbed into crime and drugs. Also, participation in sport caters

for healthier living.

The MF acknowledges that, in both reports of the Portfolio Committee

on Sport and Recreation on the various areas, similar intentions

were carried out, which appropriately attended to the sector issues

in those regions and concerns regarding the 2010 soccer world cup.

Having noted the findings of the portfolio committee after its

numerous in-depth meetings with the necessary stakeholders in the

various regions, the MF agrees with the recommendations made by the

portfolio committee. We strongly agree that Sport and Recreation SA
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                              PAGE: 105 of 141

has a crucial role to play in these. Also, the necessary hon

premiers, MEC: of sport and recreation and the respective Ministers

in the various provinces play a vital role in the effective and

efficient infiltration, development and advancement of sport and

recreation in their areas.

The MF supports the recommendations made and feels that their

implementation will greatly benefit sport and recreation in these

areas. I thank you.

Mr B M KOMPHELA: Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

Maloko a Palamente a hlomphehileng haholo, re a leboha hore kajeno

tjena re fumane monyetla wa hore re tlalehele Palamente le setjhaba

sa rona sa Afrika Borwa ka mosebetsi o moholo wa Palamente, wa ho

tsamaya re lekola kamoo mosebetsi o ntseng o tsamaya ka teng.

Dintho tseo re di boneng diprofensing tseo re tsamaileng ho tsona,

naha ka bophara, ke dintho tse tshwanang kaofela ha tsona. Ke ntho

tse kang tsa hore batho ba rona ba Afrika Borwa ba hloka mabala a

dipapadi moo ba leng teng.

Empa ho na le dintho tse ntle tse etsahetseng, tse entsweng ke mmuso

ona wa rona. Ke leboha ha o le teng, Letona, hore ke tle ke bue taba

tsena mme o tle o kgone ho di utlwa hantle, ka ha re tla lakatsa

hore o di lokise hobane re a kgoptjwa ha di sa loke.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                             PAGE: 106 of 141

Re ile ra etela KwaZulu-Natal. Ha re kgutla teng, re ile ra sheba

direkoto tsa Palamente mme ra fumana hore ka 2003, Komiti ya

Palamente e neng e etetse moo, e ile ya fumana ho thwe ho na le

setediyamo se qetilweng ho ahwa, Empolweni. Ha re kgutla teng, ka

2005, re fumane ho se setediyamo se jwalo.

Ha re tlalehela Palamente ditaba tse kang tseo re re, ka kopo hle,

re batla hore ha re kgutlela mono, bathong bao ba nang le tshepo e

phahamisitsweng ke rona, ba tle ba kgone ho bona hore, ha re bowa

sekwele, ho na le taba eo re ileng ra e fetisa ho lokisa maemo ao a

neng a le teng ka nako eo. Ke seo re se kopang seo.

Empa, re batla ho leboha hape-hape, bakeng sa Lotto. Modulasetulo wa

Lefapha la tsa Kgwebo le Indaseteri, wa mphato Ben Martin, re a

buisana le yena hobane mmethe oo o o fumanang bakeng sa ditekanyetso

tsa hao tsa tsa dipapadi, ke nnete ha o motle haholo ho ka etsa ntho

tsena tseo setjhaba se di lebeletseng kaofela. Re buisana le yena ka

hore ho ka ba molemo ha re ka eketsa mmethenyana ono ka 20%, ho

potlakisa kaho ya mabala a dipapadi le matamo a bana a ho sesa, ho

tlisa bophelo bo botle le hore bana bana ba tloswe kgakgauwaneng ena

ya ho sebedisa dithetefatsi. (Translation of Sesotho paragraphs


[Hon members of Parliament, today we feel honoured to have been

granted this opportunity to report on the huge task carried out by
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                           PAGE: 107 of 141

Parliament in its role as an oversight instrument to Parliament and

to the nation as a whole.

During our visits to the provinces, we observed that the same

problems were common throughout the country. They included, among

others, the shortage of sports fields.

However, there are many positive developments that have taken place

in sport in this country. I am very grateful for the Minister of

sport‘s presence in the House, and for him to have the information

first hand regarding the problems in sport. We hope that he will

solve them quickly because we do not wish to fail our people.

On our return from KwaZulu-Natal, we scrutinised parliamentary

records and discovered that the parliamentary committee, which

visited the place in 2003, reported that there was one complete

stadium at Empolweni. But, surprisingly, on our visit in 2005, we

did not find a stadium.

We report these developments with the hope that some measures will

be taken to meet the high expectations of the people of Empolweni so

that when we go back there they do not accuse us of making empty

promises. That is all we ask.

We are thankful for the financial support from the Lottery. We are

also in constant contact with the director-general from the
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                             PAGE: 108 of 141

Department of Finance, Ben Martin, for financial assistance because

the funds allocated for sport are insufficient, and therefore cannot

meet national expectations. The discussions with the director-

general are aimed at persuading him to increase our budget

allocation by about 20% in order to fast-track the building of

stadiums, swimming pools and to produce youth free from the scourge

of drug abuse.]

We really appreciate the idea of the Municipal Infrastructure Grant,

but we just want to draw the attention of the Minister and the hon

House to our concern. This is a good concept, we appreciate it and

we accept it. However, I don‘t think it‘s correct that you should

have abandoned your programme, which was called Building for Sport,

before we could see the Municipal Infrastructure Grant running.

The problem that we are encountering around the question of the

Municipal Infrastructure Grant, as the portfolio committee, is that

your programme, Building for Sport, has built 144 sporting

facilities throughout the country. However, with the advent of the

Municipal Infrastructure Grant, we have only built four in the

country. It‘s a loss.

What happened to the 140? It used to be 144. There is nothing wrong

with the Municipal Infrastructure Grant, but it‘s a new concept,

where municipalities are putting facilities for sport at position G,

which is not a priority to municipalities.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                           PAGE: 109 of 141

We have interacted with the Integrated Development Plans of

municipalities throughout the country. I can confidently say to this

House that only four municipalities throughout the country have

sport as one of their priorities, and are building facilities for

our children to go and play in. That is a challenge that exists in

the country.

We urge, again, that there should be a way for us to request a

reinforcement of the Municipal Infrastructure Grant, so that it

should target, exactly, the building of these facilities, because

the Minister has raised a lot of expectations for everybody in the

country. You went to Oudtshoorn over the weekend and raised hundreds

of people‘s expectations by saying those kids must play. Where

should they play, because you are unable to build facilities? It‘s a

humble request from our committee; saying that, whilst you are

looking for the running of the Municipal Infrastructure Grant, let

us use this alternative vehicle, which is a running vehicle, at the

same time.

The question of the memorandum of understanding in sport and

recreation is a problem throughout the provinces. We have met with

the chairpersons of all provinces, and others do not even know about

the memorandum of understanding. The memorandum of understanding has

become the affair of the two national departments in Cape Town.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                           PAGE: 110 of 141

In provinces, chairpersons and everybody else did not know, but the

question of that memorandum of understanding clearly places physical

education at school level and it is the Ministry‘s responsibility to

deal with sport. People do not understand that. Those who are

responsible for the provision of sport have not been given this kind

of information for them to understand what the new challenges and

the new things are, which are beginning to enhance and broaden the

mass participation of learners everywhere around the country.

The other problem is the legislation. One thing that we are seized

with, as a portfolio committee, is the governance of sport in the

country. It is chaotic, it has collapsed and it‘s a disgrace. I

think I agree with the comrade who says that we should call for

these hon ladies and gentlemen in both the SA Rugby Football Union

and the SA Football Association, and also in the United Cricket

Board, please to pack their things and go for healthy sport in this

country, because this is anarchy. [Interjections.]

I‘m coming to that point. Minister, you can‘t do that because this

House is saying that sport should be a sacred thing, which you do

not touch. You must be a passive spectator. There should be

pillaging and plundering, because there is no law that gives you

powers to call people to order if there is anarchy.

Up until such time, I think we must be able to bite the bullet. We

have gone to France, we have gone all over, and those countries are
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                            PAGE: 111 of 141

running sport through the law. Where there is no law, there is

anarchy and this is the anarchy that we see.

Around the question of 2010, throughout the provinces, I‘ve heard

you saying to many people . . .

 . . . Musani ukungxama ngokwakha amabala amaninzi ngoba izakuba

sesa se-Korea/Japan. Nguwe wedwa olifundisa abantu elo lizwi. Le

komiti yalapha ekhaya ekufuneka iququzele ihleli zava ezi-ofisini.

Abatsho ebantwini ukuba, ‗Kha nime kancinci nantsi into esiza

kuyenza.‘ Ngoba bathi kuthi . . . (Translation of Xhosa paragraph


[ . . . refrain from quickly building many playing fields or this

country will be like Korea/Japan.   It is you alone who preaches that

message to people. The committee that is supposed to co-ordinate

this is sitting and relaxing. They are not saying to people, ‗Please

exercise patience because this is what we are going to do.‘ They say

to us . . . ]

You see, we have the 2006 German World Cup responsibility, so we

must not do anything. However, we have a problem, as a portfolio

committee. When you give people information, you don‘t do anything

else. You just give them information to prepare them, so that they

must know that, tomorrow, after the 2006 world cup in Germany, there

is something that we are going to do.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                           PAGE: 112 of 141

Let us give our people information because, wherever they are, they

are looking for the excitement that was caused by Madiba when he

raised that trophy of the 2010 Federation of International Football

Associations World Cup, and that excitement is going down. Let us

stay with that momentum and be able to give people information.

We appeal that the Local Organising Committee should be able to have

a road show and inform municipalities and everybody else about what

these challenges are and why we are slowing down in building

stadiums and all those other things. There should, at least, be

information given to those people.

In the municipality of Steynsrus, in the Free State, if you build a

high-powered facility, the revenue base for that municipality would

only be R25. They would not be able to cut the grass, they would not

be able to replace glass, and they would not be able to do anything

else. Now, the committee makes a recommendation that, whilst we have

this wish to see that even small municipalities are benefiting

around the issue of stadiums, it should be the responsibility of the

national department to look after the facilities until

municipalities have reached a healthy level of being able to

maintain that stadium.

We understand the issue of the competency of all stadiums being

given by the provincial and local government to municipalities, but
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                           PAGE: 113 of 141

what about the capacity of revenue? We went to Montshiwa, in the

North West. The stadium there was renovated at a cost of R4 million

and, in the second round, it was renovated at a cost of R8 million.

You can go and see for yourself, there is no stadium there. That is

because that municipality is so small that it cannot maintain a

facility of that size in Montshiwa. So, whatever we do, I think we

must have a better interaction with the provincial and local

government, in relation to how we should deal with small

municipalities, giving them just the basic facilities.

There is a problem throughout the country. Not a single province can

say to you there are no leases of stadiums. Not even here in Cape

Town, where we are. In Mangaung, the Vodacom stadium doesn‘t belong

to the municipality. It belongs to the Cheetahs. In Durban, a

volleyball team pays R8 000 for a game, per day, because they can‘t

access that facility, as it has been leased to other people.

We must be able to challenge, head-on, the demon of leases

throughout the country, and see what we can do with the leases in

this country. They are impeding people‘s access to facilities.


Everywhere, there are leases given to big sporting codes, and when

our teams go to play there, like Celtic, they pay R15 000. [Time

expired.] [Applause.]
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                              PAGE: 114 of 141

Debate concluded.


 That the report be noted.

Motion agreed to.

Report on oversight visit to Limpopo, Mpumalanga and Gauteng

accordingly noted.

Report on oversight visit to Free State and North West Provinces

accordingly noted.





with a sense of pride that we share some information in this hon

House this afternoon. Saica, the SA Institute for Chartered

Accountants, has a system by which they award prizes to government

departments, nationally and provincially. In fact, they have two

6 SEPTEMBER 2005                           PAGE: 115 of 141

In the category where the national departments had to compete with

all the provincial departments they had a whole list of criteria

against which they measured those departments. I would like to just

mention some of these criteria, there is a whole list, but the two

criteria that stand out are the way in which the department is

managed and then obviously the audit report of the department for

that past financial year.

Now, in that first category of the national departments and the

provinces and provincial departments, the Department of Sport and

Recreation was awarded first prize. We were number one there, and

amongst the national departments, the Department of Sport and

Recreation is also number one. So, we are the winners in both those

categories. It fills us with pride, and may I say to hon Minister

Mfundisi: Thank you so much for your leadership.

We want to thank our team. We grilled them with questions, but they

will see that from those tears came a lot of good work. To the

director-general, the chief financial officer and the whole

department: Congratulations on a job well done.

There will be a time arranged for a professional group of the

institute to hand over the prizes to the hon Minister. But having

listened to the debate this afternoon, I want to conclude by saying

one thing: We obviously agree with a lot of things that have been
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                                      PAGE: 116 of 141

said and shared this afternoon. But give us time and money. With the

management and the will there is under the leadership of the

Minister of Sport and Recreation, we will not only transform sport

in this country, we will be number one in the world like we are

regarding these prizes of Saigca. I thank the House for their


The House adjourned at 16:55.



                             THURSDAY, 1 SEPTEMBER 2005


National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1.   Introduction of Bills

     (1)   The Minister of Minerals and Energy
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                                                PAGE: 117 of 141

           (i)   Electricity Regulation Bill [B 29 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 75) [Bill and

                  prior notice of its introduction published in Government Gazette No 27984 of 31

                  August 2005.]

           Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Minerals and Energy of the

           National Assembly, as well as referral to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for

           classification in terms of Joint Rule 160, on 2 September 2005.

           In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of the Bill may be submitted

           to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) within three parliamentary working days.

National Assembly

The Speaker

1.   Membership of Assembly (floor-crossing)

     Membership status of the following members has in terms of Schedule 6A of the Constitution

     (floor-crossing) changed as follows:

         Mr S Simmons has, on 1 September 2005, left the New National Party (NNP) and joined

          the United Party of South Africa (UPSA), a new party in the National Assembly.

         Mr L M Green has, on 1 September 2005, left the African Christian Democratic Party

          (ACDP) and joined the Federation of Democrats (FD), a new party in the National

6 SEPTEMBER 2005                                               PAGE: 118 of 141

          Mr M C J van Schalkwyk has, on 1 September 2005, left the New National Party (NNP)

           and joined the African National Congress (ANC).

          Mr C H F Greyling has, on 1 September 2005, left the New National Party (NNP) and

           joined the African National Congress (ANC).

          Mr F Beukman has, on 1 September 2005, left the New National Party (NNP) and joined

           the African National Congress (ANC).

          Mr J Schippers has, on 1 September 2005, left the New National Party (NNP) and joined

           the African National Congress (ANC).

          Ms C B Johnson has, on 1 September 2005, left the New National Party (NNP) and joined

           the African National Congress (ANC).


National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1.   The Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs

     (a)   Report and Financial Statements of the Agricultural Research Council (ARC) for 2004-

           2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2004-

           2005 [RP 88-2005].

2.   The Minister in The Presidency
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                                                PAGE: 119 of 141

     (a) Report and Financial Statements of Media Development and Diversity Agency (MDDA) for

         2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for

         2004-2005 [RP 118-2005].


National Assembly

1.   Report of the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security on the South African Police

     Service (SAPS) Station Monitoring Tool, dated 31 August 2005:

     The Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security having developed a monitoring tool for the

     South African Police Service (SAPS) Stations reports as follows:

     A. Introduction

     The Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security held a strategic planning workshop in February

     2005. The Report of the Workshop adopted by the Committee on 23 February 2005 identified the

     need to develop a standardized questionnaire (monitoring tool) for oversight visits of police

     stations to ensure more effective and coordinated policing oversight.

     The Committee established a subcommittee to oversee and input into the establishment of this

     tool. The subcommittee consists of Members from the various political parties represented in the

     Portfolio Committee.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                                              PAGE: 120 of 141

   B. Purpose

   The purpose of this questionnaire is to:

       Facilitate effective oversight by the various parliamentary committees responsible for Safety

        and Security over policing at station level.

       Provide these committees with useful independent data with which to make

        recommendations to improve the functioning of policing.

       Compare successes and problems between stations and provinces.

       Measure progress at police stations over time.

       Ensure more effective collaboration in oversight functions between the Portfolio Committee

        on Safety and Security of the National Assembly, the Select Committee on Security and

        Constitutional Affairs of the National Council of Provinces and the Standing Committees

        within the various provincial legislatures.

  C.    Who should use the questionnaire?

   The questionnaire should be used by:

       Members of the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security when undertaking station visits

        as part of their constituency work.

       The Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security when undertaking station visits as part of

        the committee programme.

   In addition, the questionnaire may be used by:
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                                                PAGE: 121 of 141

         Members of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs when undertaking

          station visits as part of constituency or committee work.

         Members of the Standing Committees of the Provincial Legislatures when undertaking

          station visits as part of constituency or committee work.

         Any Member of Parliament when undertaking station visits as part of constituency work.

     D. Conclusion

     The questionnaire will be launched in parliament on a date to be announced. All members are

     encouraged to attend. Bound copies of the questionnaire are available in the office of the Clerk of


     The committee presents this report to Parliament for approval of the questionnaire.

     Report to be considered.

                                  FRIDAY, 2 SEPTEMBER 2005


National Assembly

The Speaker

1.   Membership of Assembly
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                                                  PAGE: 122 of 141

       1. Membership of the following members of the National Assembly has been terminated with

           effect from 31 August 2005:

           Diko, M; Mdaka N M.


National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1.   The Minister of Finance

       (a) Government Notice No 806 published in Government Gazette No 27878 dated 5 August

           2005: Determination on interest rate for purposes of paragraph (a) of the definition of

           “official rate of interest” in paragraph 1 of the Seventh Schedule, tabled in terms of the

           Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No 58 of 1962).

2.   The Minister for Provincial and Local Government

     (a)     Report and Financial Statements of Municipal Infrastructure Investment Unit (MIIU) for

           2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for

           2004-2005 [RP 72-2005].

3.   The Minister for the Public Service and Administration
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                                               PAGE: 123 of 141

     (a)    Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) Convention on

            Combating Bribery of Foreign Public Officials in International Business Transactions,

            tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.

     (b)    Explanatory memorandum to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and

            Development (OECD) Convention on Combating Bribery of Foreign Public Officials in

            International Business Transactions.

4.    The Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs

     (a)    Report and Financial Statements of Bala Farms (Pty) Ltd for 2004-2005, including the

            Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005 [RP 133-


5.    The Minister of Labour

     (a)    Report and Financial Statements of the Construction Sector Education and Training

            Authority (CETA) for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the

            Financial Statements for 2004-2005 [RP 85-2005].

     (b)    Report and Financial Statements of the Chemical Industries Education and Training

            Authority (CHIETA) for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the

            Financial Statements for 2004-2005 [RP 97-2005].
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                                            PAGE: 124 of 141

  (c)    Report and Financial Statements of the Clothing, Textiles, Footwear and Leather Sector

          Education and Training Authority (CTFL SETA) for 2004-2005, including the Report of

          the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005 [RP 87-2005].

   (d)   Report and Financial Statements of the Primary Agriculture Education and Training

          Authority (PAETA) for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the

          Financial Statements for 2004-2005 [RP 106-2005].

   (e)   Report and Financial Statements of the Diplomacy, Intelligence, Defence and Trade

          Education and Training Authority (DIDTETA) for 2004-2005, including the Report of

          the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005 [RP 100-2005].

   (f)    Report and Financial Statements of the Tourism, Hospitality and Sport Education and

          Training Authority (THETA) for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-

          General on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005 [RP 104-2005].

   (g)   Report and Financial Statements of the Banking Sector Education and Training Authority

         (BANKSETA) for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the

         Financial Statements for 2004-2005 [RP 84-2005].

   (h)   Report and Financial Statements of the Wholesale and Retail Sector Education and

         Training Authority (W&RSETA) for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-

         General on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005 [RP 105-2005].
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                                                PAGE: 125 of 141

     (i)      Report and Financial Statements of the Local Government, Water and Related Sector

              Education and Training Authority (LGWSETA) for 2004-2005, including the Report of

              the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005 [RP 95-2005].

6.   The Minister of Arts and Culture

     (a) Report and Financial Statements of the National Museum for 2004-2005, including the

           Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005 [RP 141-2005].

     (b) Report and Financial Statements of the Northern Flagship Institution for 2004-2005,

           including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005 [RP


     (c) Report and Financial Statements of the Freedom Park Trust for 2004-2005, including the

           Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005.

     (d) Report and Financial Statements of Blind South Africa (Blind SA) 2004-2005, including the

           report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005.

     (e) Report and Financial Statements of Performing Arts Centre of the Free State for 2004-2005,

           including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005.

                                  MONDAY, 5 SEPTEMBER 2005
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                                                 PAGE: 126 of 141


National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1.    Assent by President in respect of Bills

      (1)         Sectional Titles Amendment Bill [B 10B – 2005] – Act No 7 of 2005 (assented to and

                  signed by President on 08 July 2005).

National Assembly

The Speaker

1.    Referrals to committees of papers tabled

     1.     The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture and Land

            Affairs. The Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements is referred to

            the Standing Committee on Public Accounts for consideration:

            (a)    Report and Financial Statements of Ncera Farms (Pty) Ltd for 2004-2005, including

                   the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                                            PAGE: 127 of 141

   2.   The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on Labour. The Report of the

        Auditor-General on the Financial Statements is referred to the Standing Committee on

        Public Accounts for consideration:

        (a)   Report and Financial Statements of the Commission for Conciliation, Mediation and

              Arbitration (CCMA) for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on

              the Financial Statements for 2004-2005 [RP 54-2005].

   3.   The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on Education. The Report of

        the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements is referred to the Standing Committee on

        Public Accounts for consideration:

        (a)   Report and Financial Statements of South African Council for Educators (SACE) for

              2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements

              for 2004-2005.

   4.   The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on Arts and Culture. The

        Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements is referred to the Standing

        Committee on Public Accounts for consideration:

        (a)   Report and Financial Statements of Artscape for 2004-2005, including the Report of

              the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005.

   5.   The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional

        Development for consideration:
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                                                PAGE: 128 of 141

          (a)   Report of the South African Law Reform Commission on the Repeal of the Black

                Administration Act, 1927 (Act No 38 of 1927).


National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1.   The Minister of Labour

     (a) Report and Financial Statements of the Sector Education and Training Authority for

         Secondary Agriculture (SETASA) for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-

         General on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005 [RP 107-2005].

     (b) Report and Financial Statements of the Education, Training and Development Practices

         Sector Education and Training Authority (ETDP SETA) for 2004-2005, including the Report

         of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005.

     (c) Report and Financial Statements of the Financial and Accounting Services Sector Education

         and Training Authority (FASSET) for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-

         General on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005 [RP 83-2005].

     (d) Report and Financial Statements of the Insurance Sector Education and Training Authority

         (INSETA) for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial

         Statements for 2004-2005 [RP 93-2005].
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                                              PAGE: 129 of 141

      (e) Report and Financial Statements of the Health and Welfare Sector Education and Training

           Authority (HWSETA) for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the

           Financial Statements for 2004-2005 [RP 92-2005].


National Assembly

1.    Report of the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security on Oversight Visit to Western

      Cape Regarding Service Delivery and Implementation Action Steps of the Firearms

      Control Act 12 to 14 June 2005, dated 24 August 2005:


     1. Introduction

     2. Delegation

     3. Term of reference

     4. Beaufort West Police Station

     5. Laingsburg Police Station

     6. Touwsriver Police Station

     7. De Doorns Police Station

     8. Debriefing Session and Recommendations

     8.1 Inadequate Number of Bulletproof vest

     8.2 Equity at Police Stations

     8.3 Language policy

     9. Recommendation
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                                              PAGE: 130 of 141

   The Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security, having conducted an oversight visit to the

   Western Cape (Overberg) Province from 12 to 14 June 2005, reports as follows:

   1.         INTRODUCTION

   The Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security undertook a visit to 4 police stations in the

   Western Cape Province (Beaufort West, Laingsburg, Touwsriver, and DeDoorns). The purpose

   of the visit was to investigate service delivery and whether or not the implementation action steps

   (distribution of official documents, training of SAPS personnel, technical support, accreditation,

   etc) of the Firearms Control Act and its Regulations are completed and whether or not all

   national police stations which have been identified as ready to implement this Act, are indeed

   ready for implementing this Legislation.

   2.         DELEGATION

        1)    Ms MM Sotyu (ANC) - Committee Chairperson and leader of Delegation

        2)    Mr AM Maziya (ANC)

        3)    Ms A Van Wyk (ANC)

        4)    Mr S Mahote (ANC)

        5)    Mr N L Diale (ANC)

        6)    Mr A H Gaum (NNP)

        7)    Mr R King (DA)

        8)    Mr R Jankielsohn (DA)

        9)    Mr JC Michaels (Committee Secretary)

        10)   Mr V Mfuniselwa (Committee Assistant)
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                                             PAGE: 131 of 141

   The following people were also in attendance, Area Commissioner Daniels and his team of Zone

   Commissioners, Director Zabo at the Ministers Office, ICD Western Cape Head and his team

   and Representatives from the Western Cape Department for Community Safety.


   The Delegation had to investigate and report to Parliament on the following:

           Whether or not the implementation action steps (distribution of official documents;

              training of SAPS personnel, technical support, accreditation, etc) of the Firearms

              Control Act and its Regulations are completed, and whether or not all national police

              stations which have been identified as ready to implement this Act, are indeed ready

              for implementing this Legislation.

             Service delivery at selected Police Stations as identified by Members of Parliament

   Based on its observations and discussions that were held with the relevant stakeholders, the

   Committee had to make recommendations.


   Management of the Beaufort West Police Station, led by the Superintendent, briefed the

   Committee as follows:
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                                               PAGE: 132 of 141

   The Beaufort West police station serves a 124 176km geographical

   area with a population of 37 107. There is Satellite police

   stations       in    Merwerville       and    Nelspoort,          and    additional         police

   stations in Neville and Nelspoort. Beaufort West is divided into

   10   Sectors        although     sector      policing       is    still       in    its    growing

   phase.    The       station      currently       has    3       uniformed      police       and   2

   civilians performing duties in relation to the Firearms Control

   Act. For the first 6 months of this year the station processed 38

   Firearm license renewals and 3 new applications.                                        The police

   station    has       207    staff      members    and       a    total    of       42    vehicles.

   Priority       crimes       at   the    police    station         include          business    and

   residential burglary, and aggravated and common robbery. Special

   projects include Nature conservation & education in cooperation

   with     the        Karoo    National        Park,      awareness         drive          (pamphlet

   distribution) on sexual offences and establishment of sub-forums

   for the CPF (Community Policing Forum). Both the CPF and union

   representatives             indicated     that       they        have     a    good        working

   relationship with the station management.

   Committee members raised concerns about the inadequate number of

   bulletproof vests and the availability of a Designated Firearms

   Officials at the station while training is provided to staff

   working at the Firearms licensing division. The committee further

   expressed its concern about the police station‘s ability to deal

   with the public in any language. Other concerns that were raised

6 SEPTEMBER 2005                                     PAGE: 133 of 141

           The number of illegal shebeens

           Lack of attention to social crimes

           The     number    of   vacant   post   and     equity   at    the   Police


           The use of crime kits at crime scenes e.g. Finger print &

            Rape Kits

     The station management responded by saying that the issue of the

     inadequate number of bulletproof vests is in the process of being

     address   by    the     Provincial   head   office.    English      is   the   main

     language used by police members when addressing the public and

     taking statements. However the language issue remains a challenge

     at the police station. The police station management admitted

     that illegal shebeens are a problem and this leads to the high

     incidents of social crimes. There is however a plan in place to

     deal with this matter. All vacant post will be filled sometime

     soon since most have already been advertised. The appointment of

     females however remains a challenge. Crime kits are frequently

     used at crime scenes and sent to the forensic laboratory in

     Beaufort West.

6 SEPTEMBER 2005                                                PAGE: 134 of 141

   The Station has a new Station Commander who was redeployed to the station. The policing area

   consists of 9642 square kilometers. The estimated population is 5 920. The Police station has 46

   staff members (of which 7 are civilians), and a total of 8 vehicles. The station has one designated

   police official (DPO) who’s responsible for dealing with all matters related the new Firearms

   Control Act. Five new applications for firearms licenses have been processed since January 2005.

   The police management has a good working relationship with both the Unions and the CPF.

   There is, however, a lack of trust between the community and the police. The committee was told

   that the police station is still in need of vehicles, office space and bulletproof vests. The priority

   crimes at the police station include Assault GBH, Assault common, theft and burglary

   (residential & business).

   Committee members enquiries related to the:

    Percentage of crimes that are committed by individuals from other areas.

    Kind of vehicles needed

    Extent to which bulletproof vests are a problem

    Low conviction rates

    Use of crime kits by police members

    Shooting ranges at Laingsburg

    Staff shortage and

    Steps taken to improve relationship with the community.

   Drug related crime is minimal and problems with individuals from other towns are none existent.

   The police station presently has 6 functional vehicles, 4 of which have done more then 200

   000kms, thus worsening the problem of breakages and vehicle shortages. There is a shortage of
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                                               PAGE: 135 of 141

   bulletproof vests but the Provincial Head office already confirmed that more would be allocated

   in the near future. The staff shortage exists due to members continuously being transferred.

   However, 65 uniformed new police recruits will be appointed in the near future. The low

   conviction rate is due to individuals withdrawing cases. Accredited shooting ranges are in

   Beaufort West and Ladysmith. Crime kits are extensively used at crime scenes. Laingsburg has

   been prioritized by the Department of Public Works for additional office space.


   The Touwsriver Police precinct includes Middeldorp, Mount Crescent, Schoemansville and

   Steenvliet, with a population of 8 500 people. The Police station has a staff complement of 43

   (34 Uniformed members and 10 Civilians) and 7 vehicles. One senior member of police has

   received training on the new Firearms Control Legislation. The Station management has a good

   relationship with the CPF and the union representatives at the police station.

   The Committee was told that serious crimes, crimes against woman & children and organized

   crime are prioritized and is decreasing. Detectives’ case loads are on average 95 per month and

   most of them are assault cases, which are withdrawn before it reaches court. There is an

   increase in crime during off seasonal periods, due to an influx of people. The office operating

   hours (8:00 – 17:00) of the clinic contribute to the increased number of death cases. Crime kits

   are extensively used and sent to Worcester for analysis. Bulletproof vests have been applied for

   and should be allocated in the near future. Staff shortage is negatively effecting social crime


6 SEPTEMBER 2005                                               PAGE: 136 of 141

   The Police station serves an area of 483 square kilometers, with a population of 146 029 people.

   The human resource component consists of 51 members, and there are 9 vehicles. Six senior

   police officials are currently undergoing training on the Firearms Control Act. An awareness

   campaign was held soon after the launch of the act in order to sensitize the community about the

   new Act. Special projects at the station include training of community members as reservist and

   for neighbourhood and farm watch. The police station is in need of additional office space, and

   quad bikes are needed for patrols and crime prevention operations in the informal settlements.

   Priority crimes at the station include murder, rape and drug dealing. Management at the police

   station has a good working relationship with the unions and CPF.

   There are 24 detectives at the police station and they deal on average with 24 new cases a month.

   The Designated Police Officer appointed to deal with Firearm licenses does not have a vehicle.

   The police station is awaiting the new bulletproof vests that were issued.


   The delegation held a debriefing session with the SAPS Provincial Management. The debriefing

   was based on the information received and concerns raised during the separate meetings that

   were held at different Police Stations. The session focused specifically on:

        The inadequate number of bulletproof vests,

        Equity at police stations,

        Language policy and

        Recommendations on the way forward.

   8.1      Inadequate number of bulletproof vests
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                                                   PAGE: 137 of 141

             Mr Daniels (Commissioner for Overberg Area) said that the shortage of bulletproof vests is

             a national problem, which emanates from the supplier that’s unable to keep up with the

             SAPS demands. However this problem is being attended to.

      8.2       Equity at police stations

             The Committee expressed its concerns with regard to the low number of females at police

             stations, in particular those in senior positions. Mr Daniels gave the Committee his

             assurance that this matter will be attended to.

8.3       Language policy

             The committee agreed that this is a matter, which will be taken up at a different level since

             this policy is not determined by the Provincial Police Management.

      9.        RECOMMENDATIONS

      The Portfolio Committee recommends that:

            The status of Beaufort West police station is reconsidered.

            The Department of Health and Social Development are consulted regarding the operating

             hours of the Clinic at Touwsriver.

      Report to be considered.
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                                               PAGE: 138 of 141

                                TUESDAY, 6 SEPTEMBER 2005


National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1.   Introduction of Bills

     (1)   The Minister of Minerals and Energy

           (i)   Precious Metals Bill [B 30 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 75) [Bill and prior

                 notice of its introduction published in Government Gazette No 27929 of 19 August


           Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Minerals and Energy of the

           National Assembly, as well as referral to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for

           classification in terms of Joint Rule 160, on 7 September 2005.

National Assembly

The Speaker

1.   Membership of Assembly (Floor-crossing)
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                                              PAGE: 139 of 141

     Membership status of the following members has in terms of Schedule 6A of the Constitution

     (floor-crossing) changed, as follows:

          Mr J J M Stephens has, on 6 September 2005, left the United Democratic Movement

           (UDM) and joined the Democratic Alliance (DA).

          Dr G G Woods, Mr M V Ngema, Mr B C Ngiba and Ms M M Mdlalose have, on 6

           September 2005, left the Inkatha Freedom Party (IFP) and joined the National Democratic

           Convention (NADECO), a new party in the National Assembly.

          Mr L K Joubert has, on 6 September 2005, left the Inkatha Freedom Party (IFP) and joined

           the Democratic Alliance (DA).

2.        Membership of Committees

      The following changes have been made to the membership of Portfolio Committees, viz:


           Appointed: Khumalo, Rev M S

           Discharged: Cupido, Mr H B

           Public Works:

           Appointed: Cupido, Mr H B

           Discharged: Khumalo, Rev M S

           Water Affairs and Forestry:
6 SEPTEMBER 2005                                                PAGE: 140 of 141

           Appointed: Cupido, Mr H B


National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1.   The Minister of Labour

     (a)     Report and Financial Statements of the Compensation Fund for 2004-2005, including the

              Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005.

       (b) Report and Financial Statements of the Services Sector Education and Training (Services

              SETA) for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial

              Statements for 2004-2005 [RP 78-2005].

2.   The Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism

       (a) Report and Financial Statements of Vote 28 – Department of Environmental Affairs and

              Tourism for 2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial

              Statements for 2004-2005 [RP 170-2005].

     (b)     Report and Financial Statements of the South African National Biodiversity Institute for

              2004-2005, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for

6 SEPTEMBER 2005                                          PAGE: 141 of 141

   (c)   Report and Financial Statements of The Greater St. Lucia Wetland Park for 2004-2005,

         including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005.

   (d)   Report and Financial Statements of South African Tourism for 2004-2005, including the

         Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2004-2005.

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