Re etymology of the word zero by TaylorRandle

VIEWS: 30 PAGES: 6

									                                      Re: etymology of the word zero

Re: etymology of the word zero

Source: http://sci.tech−archive.net/Archive/sci.lang/2006−12/msg00963.html



      • From: "Dusan Vukotic" <dusan.vukotic@xxxxxxxxx>
      • Date: 10 Dec 2006 02:13:45 −0800

Paul J Kriha wrote:


        Dusan Vukotic <dusan.vukotic@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
        news:1165652154.705784.82210@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

                Paul J Kriha wrote:

                        Dusan Vukotic <dusan.vukotic@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in
                        message
                        news:1165597973.184453.62020@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

                                Paul J Kriha wrote:

                                        Colin Fine
                                        <news@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
                                        wrote in message
                                        news:el7lkg$70h$1$8300dec7@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

                                                Dusan
                                                Vukotic
                                                wrote:


                                                          Hebrew
                                                          SOFER
                                                          writer,
                                                          from
                                                          SUFERIMI
                                                          "writers",
                                                          collectors
                                                          (Serb.
                                                          sabirati
                                                          =
                                                          collect),
                                                          interpreters
                                                          and
                                                          teachers
                                                          of


Re: etymology of the word zero                                                           1
                                 Re: etymology of the word zero
                                                    the
                                                    "Law"
                                                    after
                                                    the
                                                    Exodus
                                                    (?).


                                           The Hebrew
                                           root SFR
                                           means
                                           'count', and
                                           hence 'tale'
                                           and 'book'.
                                           It has
                                           nothing to
                                           do with
                                           either 'write'
                                           or 'collect'. I
                                           don't know
                                           what
                                           'suferimi' is
                                           supposed to
                                           be − it is
                                           certainly
                                           not a
                                           Hebrew
                                           word.


                                   (1) I bet the 'sa−' in the
                                   Serbian 'sabirati' is a prefix
                                   meaning 'together/with'
                                   and 'brati' means something
                                   like 'take'.
                                   AFAIK that's what they
                                   mean in several other Slavic
                                   languages.
                                   (2) AND isn't the actual
                                   Srpski word 'sabrati' not
                                   'sabirati'?

                                   It seems it's not even a good
                                   example of a false friend.
                                   pjk


                                                    Impressive!

                                           !
                                           Colin

Re: etymology of the word zero                                      2
                                   Re: etymology of the word zero


                             Compare the German MIT−GLIED
                             (member) and MIT−TAG (midday); which
                             one
                             of these German words is MIT− prefixed?

                             If you were able to see the difference in the
                             development of these
                             German words you would be able to grasp
                             that your logic here was
                             heavily simplified and defective.


                     If 'sa−' in the Serbian words in question is a historical prefix
                     then any
                     resemblance between them and 'sof', 'suf', 'sub', or similar
                     roots is
                     irrelevant and doesn't prove any etymological relationship.

                     That's my logic. It could be heavily simplified and defective
                     but there it is.

                     The related pan−slavic cognates 'sebirati', 'sbirati', 'sebrati'
                     exist in
                     WSl languages as well as in East Slavic languages. In those
                     languages
                     the 'se−' and 's−' are prefixes. Some common related words
                     based on
                     other productive prefixes are:
                     (continuous),(onetime action)
                     'nabirati', 'nabrati' (scoop up)
                     'pobirati', 'pobrati' (take all)
                     'ubirati', 'ubrati' (remove some)
                     'zabirati', 'zabrati', (take over)
                     'zbirati', 'zebrati', (pick up)
                     'sbirati', 'sebrati', (collect / take from the top)
                     'vybirati', 'vybrati' (choose some)
                     'dobirati', 'dobrati' (use all up)
                     'podebirati', 'podebrati' (scoop underneath)
                     'rozbirati', 'rozebrati' (take apart)


                             Are you familiar with the Serbian or any
                             other Slavic language?


                     Apart from a browse through a Slovenian grammar textbook
                     for Serbs and Croats I never seriously studied any Southern
                     Slavic language.

                     As far as other Slavic languages are concerned, I am quite

Re: etymology of the word zero                                                          3
                                          Re: etymology of the word zero
                          familiar with three, two Western and one Eastern one.


                                   If you are, there is a riddle for you: Are the
                                   Serbian words
                                   SABIRATI, SABOR, ZBIR and SREBRO
                                   (argentum, silver)
                                   interrelated?


                          I don't know.

                          I checked on 'srebro/striebro/silver' with online Vasmer.
                          The word exists only in balto−slavic and germ. languages
                          and 's−' doesn't seem to be a historical slavic prefix.
                          So for the time being, my answer would be:
                          Probably not.

                          pjk


                                   DV




I see you were very diligent

                 Let me answer with another question.


        Are you sure it's going to lead to any sensible answers?

        Is the Serbian 's−', 'sa−' in 'sabirati' a prefix or not?
        (wink three times for yes :−)


Obviously, you do not understand that more than a half of the Serbian
words would be prefixed if we all were looking with your diopter.
For instance, the Serbian verb STUPATI could be also taken as sa−
prefixed. Serbian STOPA (feet) TABAN (sole) and STUB (columne, pillar,
stub) are clearly related, are they not? Did the Serbian borrow the
Germanic STUB (Ger. Stab)? What about the Serbian verbs STUPATI (Eng.
step) and ISTUPITI (step forward)? Is it connected to the verbs STABATI
& UTABATI (to flatten), TABANATI (tread), ISTABATI (to beat), ZATABATI
(to stub), USTUPATI (to cede, to give up). Of course, you can claim
again that the Serbian word STOPA was a loan word from the Germanic
STUB & STEP, but doing so you would not be able to explain how it
happened that Serbian has more logical STUB derivatives than all
Germanic languages togather? For instance, we have English STEP (to go
forward) which is equal to the Serbian STUPITI but, on the other side,

Re: etymology of the word zero                                                        4
                                       Re: etymology of the word zero
there is no (AFAIK) STOPA (feet) and TABAN (sole) in Germanic
languages. Could you tell me why?



       Actually no, I don't know the Serbian STENA for stone.
       In all W and E Slavic languages I know STENA means a wall,
       not stone. Just looking at the words I would not call them
       *undisputed* cognates.


In Serbian WALL is ZID. In fact, the Serbian STENA means 'rock',
'boulder' (a big stone).


       This time I let you do the dirty work and dig out from Vasmer
       or some other good etymological dictionary proof of their
       cognateness :−)




               We can say here that the Serbian 'stena' sprung from the ur−basis
               SUR−GON−GON; look at the Serbian verb 'stegnuti' (constrict, constrain,
               grip, tighten),


       Serbian 'stegnuti', Czech 'stahnouti', Russian 'stegat'' (constrict,
       constrain, tighten, lash together, etc.) consists of a prefix 's−'
       (with/together) plus 'teg', Cz 'tah' (draw/pull/drag). I don't think
       it has anything to do with STENA, or any stones or walls.


               and you are going to realize that this Serbian word
               sprung from the same "arsenal" as the Latin 'stagnatio' (form or lie in
               pools, standing water) and the Greek 'Ãĵ½ÌÂ' (narrow, tight,
               intimate).


       You see, as soon as you come up with a Serbian word I don't
       find in W and E Slavic languages I suspect it's a recent (after
       circa AD 800) Serbian borrowing. I'd need a positive proof of
       such word having been inherited from PIE *and* lost in other
       Slavic languages. Otherwise it just looks like a later borrowing
       from another IE language.

       If STENA really means a stone and not a wall in Serbian
       you'd have to prove to me that that was its meaning since
       PIE and the meaning wasn't somehow acquired later under
       the influence of neighbouring non−Slavic languages.

Re: etymology of the word zero                                                           5
                                     Re: etymology of the word zero



                And what would your comment be to the following thread:

                UTEGNUTI tighten
                ZATEGNUTI tighten ZATEZANJE tension
                STEGNUTI tighten, press, clench, compress, constrict, clasp, grip
                PRITEGNUTI tighten more, pull in
                ISTEGNUTI stretch, strain, pull, stretch against, extend (!) ISTEGNUE

                        EXTENSION

                DOTEGNUTI to tighten additionally
                O(D)TEGNUTI stretch, to release the preassure
                RASTEGNUTI stretch, stretch oneself, distend
                PROTEGNUTI stretch oneself, extend
                POTEGNUTI pull, draw, rip out, spirt
                NATEGNUTI tense, stretch, quaff


        It's all common garden panslavic stuff.
        Panslavic language Leggo blocks. :−)
        (The only exception would be ISTEGNUTI (stretch) which
        would take a prefix VY− in some other languages.)

        I don't really understand why are you mixing it up with STENA.
        pjk

        P.S.
        How does Serbian handle the usual three Slavic aspects
        in these '−TEGNUTI' verbs?
        (1.one time, 2.continuous, and 3.repetitive action)


There is no verb TEGNUTI in Serbian. We have nouns and adjectives
TE}INA (weight), TEG (bob), TE}AK (ponderous, severe, stiff,
difficult, weighty, hard), adverb TE`KO (scarcely, scarcely, hardly).

ISTEGNUTI (one time)
ISTEZATI (repetetive)
STEGNUTI (progressive)

DV

DV

.




Re: etymology of the word zero                                                          6

								
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