GPC-23 Meeting Minutes – July 1, 2003
Call to Order
The meeting was called to order by committee chair Ken Hesser at 8:00 AM.
Review of Committee Evolution
A brief introduction and history of why the committee was formed was discussed.
As an attendance sheet (attached) was passed around the floor was opened for participants to introduce
themselves and express issues of particular interest to their organization which should be addressed on
Dick Bruss (AMTRAK):
Would like to include a recommendation for a refrigerant selection
Are controls getting too complicated? Compromising reliability and maintainability?
Are complex diagnostic systems really useful? Dick suggested to differentiate between what is really
necessary and what is “nice to have” without anybody using it.
Long Term Maintainability
Dick: Good records/data on reliability is not available at Amtrak.
Leon Sanevich (NYCT): NYCT has reasonable data. This data could be made available to the group.
Ken Hesser (Chair): Should the guideline include a standardized fault reporting system?
Dick: Not convinced that fault log really tells anything useful. May tend to result in over-reliance on the
computer, less on the technician.
Bob May (LTK): Need realistic expectations for preventive maintenance. Can’t expect equipment to run
with no maintenance.
Ken: APTA has an existing recommended practice for HVAC periodic Inspection and Maintenance.
Possibly this could be used as a building block or simply referenced in the Guideline (APTA RT-RP-VIM-
Dick: A list of common failures and establishment of common reporting practices would be useful.
Jim Bushnell (Consultant): Refrigerant leakage is a major maintenance issue.
Ed Widdowson (Westcode): Is there any available data on reliability of equipment in the field? This
important information is not getting back to suppliers. Could the authorities provide this to the group?
Differentiation between System Types
Leon: Recommends that the guideline recognize the differences between systems equipped with open-
drive, semi-hermetic, fully-hermetic compressors.
Jim B: On Santa Clara (LRV) refrigerant system is fully hermetic. There is no on-car refrigerant system
Leon: Does not think that fully hermetic (totally non-accessible refrigerant system) with meet EPA
Group: NYCT and Amtrak are currently almost all R-22.
Laszlo Szigethi (Merak): R-22 has been banned in Europe for some time and “Green Technology” is more
aggressively encouraged. Most of Merak’s European market equipment uses R-134a. Thermo-King’s
European Rail HVAC manufacturing plant is reported to use R-407c exclusively.
Bob: The Asian market is almost exclusively R-407c.
Laszlo: Stated that the compressor design is affected most significantly by the choice of refrigerant.
Ken: R-410A is popular for residential applications but has not been actively promoted for railcar HVAC
Ray Birk (Super Radiator): Need guideline for vibration, as that is important to know when designing for
Carl Williams (Sutrak): Wants to know what works and what doesn’t work in service. Need feedback.
Ramesh Shial (Super Radiator): Feedback regarding the coils. Lots of joints in a coil result in large
potential for leaks.
Laszlo: Coil design must consider vibration, and must be tested for vibration life. Merak has good in-service
data because in Spain they do maintenance. Merak is willing to share this information.
Equipment Design Life
Ken: Do we really need a 30 year HVAC system? Would a shorter life “throw-away” unit be a better
Bob: New NYCT specs ask for 20 year HVAC life.
Dick: Needs are different for different types of vehicles.
Ken: Agreed. Guideline needs to address that there are different needs.
Terry Crawford (Siemens): Sometimes the most vibration or shock the equipment sees is during shipping
from the vendor.
Ed: This group should survey the industry and gather a wider range of field performance data.
Sylvain Merlo (Alstom): Could design criteria be standardized? For example, required quantity of fresh air
per passenger on recent contracts is very different.
Jim B: The ASHRAE Airline Cabin Air Quality Standards committee was presented with a conclusion from
researchers that 5 cfm per person was the real minimum. This was disputed by other committee members
and remains in limbo.
Terry: Does not agree with application of ASHRAE building standards to railcars. Specs do not reflect
Leon: The builders know what is available and should let the users know what is available.
Interior temperature control requirements must be different for different types of equipment.
In-service data (performance, failure modes etc.) is not generally available.
Aluminum finned coils should be considered for some applications.
Evacuation requirements are “all over the place” in different specifications.
Leon: 50 microns is a typical evacuation specification for sealed systems.
Lazslo: 50 microns is unrealistically extremely low for typical rail HVAC systems
Ramesh: 50 microns is typical for refrigerant coils.
Lazslo: Guideline should establish appropriate level of comfort for different types of cars. Type of vehicle,
type of service. Three standards in Europe: Driver cabs, main-line passengers, sub-urban/light-rail.
Sylvain: Recommend group review existing European standards for passenger rail HVAC. Agreed to make
copies of existing draft European documents available to the group.
Bob: European standard are a good start/benchmark, however, cultural and passenger expectation
differences between Europe and North America will dictate different comfort criteria.
Ken: In US, Cab (operator’s) environment has traditionally been given second priority to passenger
compartment, especially in cooling mode. Cooling is controlled based on passenger compartment return air
temperature. Cab cooling demand seldom follows passenger compartment requirements.
Jim Keele (BLE): Locomotive operating environment many times changes constantly in service, especially
in freight service. In a given move, a locomotive could start in Boston needing heat and end up in Miami
needing cooling. Engineers would like to have better control options than high/low/off.
Dick: Amtrak locomotives have small package unit controlling the cab environment .
Ken: Locomotive HVAC is not in the specific scope of this group as defined, however, the operator’s
environment in cab compartments should be addressed with the Guideline.
Bob: Other Euro/North America difference is that Euro vehicles frequently have dedicated cab HVAC.
Laszlo: Cab HVAC requirements are largely driven by labor unions.
At this point Chairman Ken Hesser thanked everyone for their input and recommended that the discussion
be closed and that points raised during this open discussion should be addressed in the guideline
Ken: Let’s refocus on the agenda.
Timetable for completion
A goal of two years to prepare a draft for public review was proposed and there was no objection raised. To
this end an immediate objective would be to have an outline prepared for review and committee approval by
the next meeting. Once and outline is agreed to, the plan would be to have volunteers to take responsibility
for drafting the different sections. It was noted that the work does not need to be limited to people who
attend the meetings. It is intended that the group will have a meeting at every ASHRAE meeting (Typically
winter meeting in late January and Annual meeting in late June), and likely others on an as needed basis in
addition to teleconferences, e-mail distribution etc.
Ken Hesser is chair. The goal is to appoint a vice chair and secretary at the time of the next meeting. To
maintain efficiency it is intended that the number of sub-committees will be kept to a minimum.
Review of Title, Purpose and Scope Plus Additional Potential Items for the GPC to Address.
It was noted that the committee needs to focus on the unique aspects associated with HVAC on rail cars.
The scope and supplementary list attached to the agenda lists a large range of items. The group is not
obligated to address each item if agreed by the group to be a lesser priority, at least for the initial issue.
Amtrak noted that the scope does not list testing as an item.
Ken: ASHRAE initially thought the Guideline would be strictly address testing, however, the intent was
always to cover the design and application aspects. Since testing can be a fairly broad subject in itself, the
group will have to decide if various levels of tests will be included in the guideline and to what extent.
At this point it was suggested and agreed that the group would assign a priority [First (1) Second (2)] and
classification [Equipment (E) or Vehicle (V)] to the list of potential topics to be addressed in the scope and
the appended list of items. This would provide a preliminary framework for the Guideline and would form a
basis of preliminary task assignments to the group. Following are the results of this discussion:
SUBJECT Priority Class. Comments
Air filtration 2 V
Capacity 1 V Passenger load – what loading should be used for design
Calculation/Criteria criteria? Door openings, type of service, solar load, carbody
heat transfer. Ambient conditions
Comfort criteria 1 V Both passenger and cab. Includes temperature uniformity
and air velocity. Preliminary European standards are
prEN13129-1, -2, -3, -4, -5, -6 These are largely under
development, but can be made available to the group. Merak
tasked to provide a list of Euro standards. What happened to
Cab comfort 1 V May be different from passenger area.
Corrosion protection 2 E
EMI 2 E Suggested providing list of things to consider, but no specifics
as these are covered in depth in existing IEEE/APTA
Standard. Reference would appear to be appropriate.
Energy efficiency 2 E
Equipment/hardware 1 E Includes all components, including safety and electrical
design components. Heating equipment. Should address good
practices from the equipment standpoint.
SUBJECT Priority Class. Comments
Materials 2 E, V Except for specifics of system components such as coils this
topic, including smoke, flammability and Toxicity issues are
normally addressed at the vehicle level.
Noise 1 V European draft prEN standards address noise in a different
way. Traditional North American practice overly simplifies.
Outside Air 1 V
Maintainability 1 E, V Both within the equipment and vehicle level maintenance
philosophy should be addressed
Refrigerant selection 1 E
Safety 1 E Is software a safety system? Safety hanging of equipment.
Reference UL 1995 and ASHRAE 15.
Temp control 1 Diagnostics needs to be addressed.
Vibration and shock 2 E, V Effects must be addressed both as equipment inputs from
design dynamic vehicle environment and as outputs to the vehicle.
This is addressed in existing document IEC-61373. Should
include mounting/securing equipment to the car.
Voltage and power 2 V Effects of power supply voltage variations, power quality (e.g.
supply options inverter waveforms) and effect of interruptions.
Qualification Testing 1 E, V
Pump down issues 2 E Due to loss of power, can’t guarantee that a pump down will
always happen. Possibly group with “Power Supply Options”
Snow and rain 2 E, V And how to test for it.
Condensate control. 2 E Carryover and drainage need to be addressed.
Discuss GPC-23 Forum – K. Hesser explained that the purpose of the GPC-23 Forum on July 2 was to
seek outside input (suggested items to cover, comments etc.) as to the topics to be covered.
Additional Items for Discussion - No additional items were raised.
Adjourn: Meeting was adjourned at 12 Noon.
GPC-23 Meeting Attendance Sheet
ASHRAE Annual Meeting in Kansas City, July 1, 2003
Birk Ray SuperRadiator Coils SuperRadiator (P) 804-974-2887
451 Southlake Blvd
Richmond, VA 23236-3091
Email – firstname.lastname@example.org
Bruss, Richard Amtrak Amtrak (P) 302-661-6955
4001 Vandever Ave.
Wilmington, DE 19802
Email - email@example.com
Bushnell, James HVAC Consulting Svcs. HVAC (P) 858-755-7807
215 Carmetta Place
Solana Beach, CA 92075-2005
Consulting (F) 858-792-5021
Svcs. Email – firstname.lastname@example.org
Crawford, Terry Siemens Transportation Systems Siemens (STS) (P) 916-681-3215
7464 French Rd.
Sacramento, CA 95828
Email – email@example.com
Hesser, Ken LTK Engineering Services LTK (P) 215-972-5915
100 West Butler Ave.
Ambler, PA 19002-5703
Engineering (F) 215-496-9451
Email (1) - firstname.lastname@example.org
Keele, James 28420 Old K.C. Road BLE (P) 913-294-4742
Paola, KS 66071
Email - email@example.com
Levin, Mike LTK Engineering Services LTK (P) 213-683-1495
Fine Arts Building
811 W 7th Street, Suite 1200
Los Angeles, CA 90017 email - firstname.lastname@example.org
May, Robert LTK Engineering Services LTK (P) 718-422-9922
335 Adams St., Suite 2702
Brooklyn, NY 11201
Engineering (F) 718-422-9924
Email – email@example.com
Merlo, Sylvain Alstom Alstom (P) 607-281-2436
1 Transit Drive
Hornel, NY 14843
Sanevich, Leon New York City Transit NYCT (P)718-694-4460
130 Livingston St. (Second Floor)
Brooklyn, NY 11201
Email – firstname.lastname@example.org
Shial, Ramesh SuperRadiator Coils SuperRadiator (P) 804-974-2887
451 Southlake Blvd
Richmond, VA 23236-3091
Email – email@example.com
Szigethi, Laszlo Merak S.A. Merak S.A. (P)
Poligono Industrial La Estacion
c/Gavilanes 16, 28320
Pinto-Madrid, Spain Email – firstname.lastname@example.org
Widdowson, Ed Westcode Inc. Westcode (P) – 610-738-1200
1372 Enterprise Drive
West Chester, PA 19380
(F) – 610-696-7262
Email – email@example.com
Sutrak Corporation Sutrak (P) 303-287-2700
6899 E. 49th Ave.
Williams, Carl Commerce City, CO 80022
Email - firstname.lastname@example.org