330 SENATE DEBATES May 18, 1868
THE SENATE an Order in Council made about the 1st of
July, 1862.
Ordered, That the same do lie on the Table.
Monday, May 18, 1868.
On motion of Hon. Mr. Tessier, seconded by
The Speaker took the chair at three o'clock. Hon. Mr. Bourinot, it was
Ordered, That the last mentioned return be
After routine,
referred to the Joint Committee of the Senate
Hon. Mr. Anderson, chairman of Committee and House of Commons on the Printing of
on Banking, Commerce and Railways, to Parliament.
whom was referred the Bill intituled "An Act
to incorporate the Bank of Agriculture," re- Hon. Mr. Ryan moved, seconded by Hon.
ported the same with several amendments Mr. Ferrier,
which were concurred in, and the said bill That an humble address be presented to His
was then read a third time and passed, and Excellency the Governor-General, praying
ordered that the Clerk do go down to the that His Excellency will be pleased to cause to
House of Commons and acquaint that House be laid before this House, copies of any corre-
that the Senate have passed this bill with spondence, proposals or suggestions received
several amendments, to which they desire during the present Session of Parliament, by
their concurrence. the Hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Marine,
having reference to deepening and improv-
Hon. Mr. Tessier, from the Select Com- ing the ship channel between Quebec and
mittee, to whom was referred the Bill in- Montreal, and to reconstructing and uniting
tituled "An Act to provide for the improve- the Trinity Board and Harbour Trusts of
ment and management of the harbour of Montreal.
Quebec and the Act amending the same."
Ordered that the said bill be read a third time The question of concurrence being put
presently and passed, and sent down to the thereon, the same was resolved in the affirma-
House of Commons without any amendment. tive, and it was
Ordered, That such members of the Privy
Hon. Mr. Chapais presented to the House a Council as are members of this House do wait
return to an address to His Excellency the on His Excellency the Governor-General with
Governor-General, dated 7th May, 1868, pray- the said address.
ing that His Excellency will be pleased to
cause to be laid before this House copies of all Hon. Mr. Wilmot moved, seconded by
correspondence which has taken place from Hon. Mr. Wark,
the 1st of January last to the present date, That an humble address be presented to His
between the Hon. the Minister of Agriculture Excellency the Governor-General, praying
and the Immigrant Agents at Hamilton, To- that His Excellency will be pleased to direct
ronto, Kingston, Ottawa, Montreal, Sher- that copies of all documents and surveys rela-
brooke, Quebec, St. John, N.B., Halifax, and tive to the construction of a canal connecting
any port or ports in Europe, having reference the waters of the Gulf of St. Lawrence, with
to the probable extent and character of the those of the Bay of Fundy, may be procured
immigration of 1868, as well as to the arrange- from the Local Governments of Nova Scotia
ments made and means provided, or to be and New Brunswick, and submitted to the
provided, in aid and encouragement of such Commissioner of the Board of Works for his
immigration; also, of any correspondence report thereon, to be laid before Parliament at
which has taken place between the Govern- its next Session.
ment of the Dominion and any of the Local The question of concurrence being put
Governments upon the said subject. thereon, the same was resolved in the affirma-
Ordered, That the same do lie on the Table. tive, and it was
Ordered, That such members of the Privy
Hon. Mr. Campbell presented to the House
Council as are members of this House do wait
a return to an address to His Excellency the
on His Excellency the Governor-General with
Governor-General, dated 7th May, 1868, pray-
the said address.
ing His Excellency to be pleased to cause to be
laid before this House copies of the re ports Hon. Mr. Allan, from the Committee on
made by John Page, Esq., Engineer of the Standing Orders and Private Bills, to whom
Public Works Department, on the subject of was referred the Bi ll intituled "An Act to
the deepening of Lake St. Peter, in virtue of incorporate the Canadian Lake Underwriters'
May 18, 1868 SENATE DEBATES 331
Association," reported the same with several into the consumption of every family. A part
amendments, which were ordered to be taken of the duty imposed upon many of our im-
into consideration by the House at the next ports had to be paid by the person who sent
sitting thereof. the articles, but in this case the whole duty
would have to come from our own people. It
Hon. Mr. Allan, from same committee, re- would operate very injuriously against our
ported without amendment the Bill intituled own industrial establishments. He knew one
"An Act to amend the Acts relating to the establishment in New Brunswick for the
Canada West Farmers' Mutual and Stock manufacture;; of the Albertine coal oil, which
Insurance Company, and to change the name would have to be shut up, and the operatives
of the company to the Canada Farmers' Mu- discharged.
tual Insurance Company," which said bill was
read a third time and passed, and a message Hon. Mr. Christie said this tax was actually
ordered to be sent to the House of Commons, about fifty per cent, upon the original price of
that the Senate have passed the bill without the oil, and it would operate very severely
any amendment. upon the poor people of the country.
The following Bi lls were discharged from Hon. Mr. Campbell said the expense of
the orders of the day on motion of Hon. Mr. light for a small family was not much, there-
Campbell, seconded by Hon. Mr. Mitchell,
fore this tax of five cents per gallon upon oil
viz: would not be felt very severely.
"An Act respecting indictable offences by
forgery. ,, The bill was then agreed to, when the
Speaker having resumed the Chair, it was
"An Act respecting larceny and other simi- read a third time and passed.
lar offences,"
"An Act respecting malicious injuries to The Bill intituled "An Act respecting the
property," militia and defence of the Dominion of
Canada," was read a first time, and ordered to
"An Act respecting offences relating to the be read a second time at the next sitting of
coin."
the House.
The Bill intituled "An Act respecting copy- The House then resolved itself into Com-
right," was read a second time, and ordered to mittee of the Whole on the Bill intituled "An
be referred to a Committee of the Whole at Act respecting the Governor-General, the
the next sitting of the House. Civil List, and the salaries of certain public
The House then resolved itself into Com- funtionaries, (Hon. Mr. Malhiot in the chair),
mittee of the Whole on the Bi ll intituled "An was read a third time, passed, and sent down
Act respecting the manufactu re or importa- to the House of Commons without amend-
tion of copper coins and tokens," (Honourable ment.
Mr. Anderson in the chair). Reported the same FORTIFICATION
with several amendments, and read a third
time and passed, and sent down to the House The order of the day was then read for the
of Commons for their concurrence. second reading of the Bi ll intituled "An Act to
make provision for defraying the expense of
Also "An Act respecting trade marks and certain works of fortification required for the
industrial designs," was passed through its defence of the Dominion."
several stages with some amendments, and
ordered to be sent down to the House of Hon. Mr. Campbell said a Bill of this kind
Commons. originating in the House of Commons to grant
supply to Her Majesty for the construction of
fortifications to provide for the defence of the
EXCISE DUTIES ON SPIRITS AND
country, would, he was sure, meet with the
PETROLEUM
hearty approval of members from both sides
The House went into Committee of the of the House. The matter of the defence of the
Whole on a Bi ll to impose :excise duties on country has formed the subject of communi-
spirits and petroleum. cations between the Imperial and Canadian
Governments, and has been brought before
Hon. Mr. Dickson in the chair.
Parliament repeatedly. From the infancy of
Hon. Mr. Wilmot thought it was entirely this country, the expense of its defence has
wrong to place a duty upon oil, as light was been borne almost wholly by the Mother
one of the necessaries _of,. life, :. and it entered Country until the last few years. If the
332 SENATE DEBATES May 18, 1868
amount of money expended by the people of British Empire would be given for our de-
Great Britain for the defence of this country, fence, on condition that we did our share of
for the last sixty years, had been added up, what was necessary for that purpose. He then
the amount would startle us. Not only have read extracts from despatches received from
the people of Great Britain expended money the Colonial Secretary, the last one being re-
to defend our country against foreign invad- ceived in February last, in order to show that
ers, but against every source of annoyance the arrangements made between the two
and trouble whatever, therefore we should Governments was even more than fair to-
only be too ready and too willing to give wards the people of Canada. The Imperial
our assistance in the way this Bi ll provides. Government were to undertake the construc-
During this year, Great Britain has expended tion of the necessary works at Quebec and
£998,000 sterling for the defence of this coun- Ha li fax, with all the naval defence of the
try, exclusive of the large sum they expend in country, and all the armaments in all the
connection with the naval service, armories, fortifications in the Dominion. The course of
barracks and other services, making a total of conduct pm-sued by the British Government
about £1,500,000 ster ling. They expend here was one which reflected honor upon them, and
annually a larger sum of money than the for which this country should feel grateful.
House of Commons proposes to grant in this Are we content to take upon ourselves a fair
Bill for the purpose of permanent fortifica- share of this burden? He thought nothing
tions. He alluded to former appropriations would be more unmanly than not to do so. If
which had been made for the permanent de- we admire the institutions of the Mother
fence of the country, and said it was gratify- Country, and prefer a limited monarchical
ing to find there was a disposition evinced by form of Government, let us not only say so,
the people of this country to do their part but let us do our duty under it as men; let us
towards its defence. The country had passed say we a re willing to make a sacrifice for the
beyond a state of pupilage, and we should sake of those institutions which we love. If we
not hesitate a moment to provide for these adopted any other course, which he could not
fo rt ifications, without which it would be im- for a moment suppose, what would be said in
possible to defend it, and our annual expendi- England where they have for fifty or sixty
ture for the militia service would be useless years past defended our country from infancy
and vain. The necessity of these fortifications to mature age. They would say we have
had been pressed upon the people of Canada defended the people of Canada, from the time of
again and again by the Mother Country, and their infancy with a sparse population until
experienced officers had been sent out to pre- they have grown up to a population of four
pare plans and specifications for those works. millions, and now we offer to defend them
These plans having been made, the subject with all our resources, if they will join with
was again brought under the consideration of us in carrying out those measures necessary
the Government of Upper Canada, and a cor- for their defence, and they refuse; therefore
respondence ensued between them and the we must come to the conclusion that they
Imperial Government, which was followed up pretended to be actuated by a loyalty which
by a deputation being sent to England, com- did not exist. Under these circumstances this
posed of members of the then Executive measure has been passed by the House of
Council, who were authorized to meet the Commons, but no scheme has been laid down
Imperial Government and come to an under- for the expenditure of this money. The plans
standing upon this important question. In the and estimates have been drawn and shown in
report which they presented to the Gover- confidence to the gentlemen who formed the
nor-General on their return, the subject is deputation to which he had referred, but it
treated at great length, and the necessity for would be impossible and impolitic to bring a
the people of Canada to bear their fair share confidential repo rt like that before Parlia-
of the expenses for the defence of the country ment, because its value depends in a great
is strongly adverted to. He (Mr. Campbell) measure upon its not being known. He would
then read extracts from the said report, com- draw attention to the fact that the delegation
menting upon them, and said it was upon when in England objected to any scheme that
that understanding with the British Gov- did not make provision for the defence of the
ernment that the sum proposed by this Bill whole country. This scheme, he said, made that
for the erection of fortifications has been vot- provision, and he thought it was a shame for
ed by the House of Commons. He was persons to represent this country as defence-
confident that all the power and resources of the less. It was the opinion of the eminent men,
May 18, 1868 SENATE DEBATES 333
who had drawn the plans of those fortifica- Hon. Mr. Letallier de St. Just objected to
tions, that after their erection the defence of the way this measure was submitted to the
the country would be easy, the fortifications House. He had no patience to do more than
affording a rallying-place for the troops. The allude to the old and absurd argument, that
works for Montreal would extend in an arc of any hon. member's loyalty was to be called in
three miles, and the centre would be about the question, because he might object to this
termination of the Victoria Bridge. These measure and its details. We should only go
works would include seven forts, besides the according to our means, and not involve this
curtain of earthwork which would make it country in expenses far beyond our resources.
almost impossible for any army to approach When British statesmen object to such meas-
them successfully. These forts could be easily ures as the present, and their details, and
manned. One hundred and fifty artillery men discuss them freely, it never enters the head
in each fort would be enough to instruct the of any sane man to question their loyalty to
less informed militia men in the discharge of the laws and institutions of the empire. As far
their duties. In regard to the expenditure of as he and his compatriots are concerned, they
this money, it is proposed that the expendi- have all given proof of their loyalty, and it
ture shall be in St. John, Montreal, Kingston, was not to be questioned or doubted. The
and some places West. A question had been amounts voted this year already are far
raised about this expenditure not being given beyond the powers of this country to endure,
more in detail for the different localities; he and when every necessary (not to speak of
thought it would be impossible to give a de- luxuries) of life was based upon the utmost
tailed estimate, as the expenditure would be limit, surely we ought to pause before voting
directed by the Royal Engineers, and it would five millions of dollars in a block sum for a
take place in those portions of the country commencement of fortifications, to be placed
we don't know where. There is no specific
which they considered most important. St. information afforded us as to the cost of these
John, N.B., is considered a most important contemplated works, where they a re to be
position to defend, in order to protect the placed, when commenced, or finished, nor any
Intercolonial Railway. The defence of Mont- of the details we had a right to expect, before
real was also considered of vital importance, being called on to vote this enormous sum,
while the defence of Kingston was of less which is but an instalment of what will be
importance, but still necessary for the defence demanded hereafter. He wished to protest
of the lakes. The expenditure of this money against the passage of the Bill.
will be under the direction of those who will The said bill was then read a second time,
have no other object in view except the de- passed through Committee of the whole House
fence of the country, and they will no doubt without any amendment.
discharge that duty conscientiously. The cost Hon. Mr. Benson in the chair
of these works will by no means be so large as It was then ordered for a third reading
some seem to suppose. The expenditure will presently, was then passed and ordered to be
go on for five years. The first year the interest sent to the House of Commons, and acquaint
on the expenditure will be $53,000, the second that House that the Senate have passed this
year $107,000, the third year $160,000, the bill without any amendments.
fourth year $214,000, and the fifth year $216; The order of the day being read, for the
660, and in forty years the whole debt would second reading of the bill intituled "An Act
be wiped out, if the invested sinking fund respecting perjury",
yielded but five per cent. He was sure no one On motion of Hon. Mr. Campbell, seconded
in the House, and he was almost certain no by Hon. Mr. Kenny, it was ordered that the
Canadian, but would be willing to appropriate said bill be discharged from the orders of the
that and more than that, to preserve and day.
maintain British connection, and to carry out
those propositions, made so liberally by the The Bill intituled "An Act to incorporate
British Government, and to show them that the Stratford Board of Trade", was read a
second time.
we are not recreant children, but are willing
to do our part of the defence of our homes On motion of Hon. Mr. McDonald, seconded
and our firesides. With these few remarks he by Hon. Mr. Anderson, it was ordered that
would now move that the Bill be read a said bill be committed to the Committee on
second time. Banking, Commerce and Railways.
334 SENATE DEBATES May 18, 1868
The House proceeded to the consideration AFTER RECESS.
of the second report of the Joint Committee of
the Senate and the House of Commons, on the MILITIA AND DEFENCE
Library of Parliament, and the said report
was read by the Clerk as follows: The order of the day being read for the
second reading of the Bill intituled "An Act
The members on behalf of the Senate of the respecting the Militia and Defence of the
Joint Committee on the Library of Parlia- Dominion of Canada,"
ment, beg leave to present a second report.
That the new rules, in relation to the loan Hon. Mr. Campbell said he had no doubt
of books from the Library during a recess of but this bill had received a great deal of
Parliament, which were embodied in the first attention in the House of Commons. The mi-
report, and agreed to by Your Honourable litia included all men between the ages of 18
House, having failed to receive the sanction of and 60, and it is proposed by this bill that
the House of Commons, the Committee have they shall be divided into active and regular
framed other rules, of a less stringent charac- militia. The Active Militia includes the
ter, which they trust may be accepted by both Volunteer, Regular, and Marine Militia. The
Houses, in lieu of those previously recom- Volunteer Militia is to be raised by voluntary
mended. enlistments; the Regular Militia is to be raised
by voluntary enlistments and men ballotted to
These rules are designed to be in addition serve; the Marine Militia is to be composed of
to, and in amendment of, the 111th rule of the seamen, sailors, and persons whose occupation
Senate concerning the Library, and are as is upon sailing crafts in the Dominion. The
follows: bill provides that the whole country shall be
(1.) That during the recess of Parliament no divided into military districts, and these again
member of either House, not residing at the are to be divided into regimental and brigade
Seat of Government, shall be at liberty to divisions as may be deemed expedient, and
borrow, or have in his possession at any one such divisions may be divided into company
divisions. For each regimental division there
time, more than three works from the Li-
shall be appointed one Lieut-Col. and two
brary, or to retain the same for a longer Majors of Reserve Militia. It is proposed in
period than one month. this way to organize all the men in the coun-
(2.) That no persons, who may be privi- try between eighteen and sixty, taking them
leged, by a card from the Speaker of either by rotation for duty according to the classes
House, to borrow books from the Library, specified in the bill, and these classes are so
shall be allowed to have in their possession arranged as to give the least inconvenience to
more than two works at any one time, or to the country. It is proposed to take out for
retain the same longer than three weeks; and actual drill every year, forty thousand men, to
that all such persons shall return the books so be drilled for a period from eight to sixteen
taken when required by the Librarian. days. If volunteers are found to give the quota
of forty thousand men, the ba llot will not
(3.) That no books of reference, or books of come into force at all, but if not, then a resort
special cost and value, may be removed from to the ballot will be necessary. This body of
the Seat of Government, under any circum- men raised by ballot or voluntary enlistment,
stances. and drilled for sixteen days, will constitute
(4.) That at the first meeting of the Joint the first military force to which the country
Library Committee at every Session of Par- will look for service in case danger arises. In
liament the Librarian shall report a list of the addition to this there would be a large num-
books absent at the commencement of the ber of officers trained, and also a Dominion
Session, specifying the names of any persons Rifle Association established, which would
who have retained the same, in contravention give the men a practical acquaintance with
of either of the foregoing rules. the weapons used, and thus enable them to
come into the field having a great advantage
On motion of Hon. Mr. Ross, seconded by over those who are not so trained. These were
the Hon. Mr. Chapels, it was ordered that the the principal features of the bill, which he
said report be adopted.
hoped would not be received with much oppo-
It being s ix o'clock the House adjourned sition, and he would move that the bill be
until half-past seven o'clock, p.m. now read a second time.
May 18, 1868 SENATE DEBATES 335
Hon. Mr. Tessier said that to employ men in Hon. Mr. Sanborn thought that the true
active service and give them no mo re than mode to provide for the defence of this coun-
fifty cents per day, and to make the same try, if we expected an organized war, was by
provision for the officers, was a feature of the its militia. He did not think at the present
bill which was particularly obnoxious, and time, situated as we are, with the difficulties
would not meet the approval of the country. having been tided over which had existed in
The Lower House had decided in favour of the United States, and which had considerable
this bill by a large majority, and they are influence upon those who had the direction of
responsible to the country for the working of affairs in England, that we could reasonably
the measure, but for his part he would have expect those two great nations ever to be
advised them to have deferred the measure, as involved in a serious conflict. He should al-
they were already incurring a large expendi- most lose hope of any advance in the civiliza-
ture for the Intercolonial Railway; not merely tion of the world, if he did not believe there
for the original cost, but an expense which was not right feeling enough in the minds of
would go on from year to year. Then again those two great nations to prevent them from
they were likely to require a large sum for the entering into a deadly con fl ict, which could
purchase of the Northwest Territory, and to not be anything else but a war of destruction
open up roads and communications with it. of life and property, and which would throw
They should not go on with such a reckless back the world into comparative barbarism. It
expenditure of the public money, until they ought not to enter our minds as a feeling
saw whether the Union prospered or not. He beyond the region of possibility, that there
thought it would have been better to have left can be a conflict between those two great
this question with the Home authorities, and nations. We are legislating under existing
informed them of the position in which the facts; while there is no prospect of war, there
country stood in regard to this matter. He are elements of disturbance existing among
generally expressed his views with great diffi- the people of the United States enough to
dence, but he could not help on this occasion, create apprehension in our minds. We have
raising his voice and protesting against the not the same force to sustain us to aid in
course the Government were now pursuing. preventing and putting down any aggressive
movement, not of a nation, but of an irregular
Hon. Mr. Flint did not rise for the purpose force, which has for its object a treasonable
of opposing the bi ll , but he thought it should design, as we would have in an organized war.
be so amended as to give satisfaction to the It is then our volunteer force would have to
Volunteers and their officers. In the 10th be put to the test, and it will be found to be a
clause of the bill, the regular period of service most valuable power. We find the Volunteers
of the Regular Militia is placed at two years, are a body composed largely of men who have
while the period of service required of the entered the service from a love for it. Military
Volunteers is three years. There should be no drill has its pleasing associations to many
difference in the time of service between the minds, and young men suited for active serv-
Volunteers and those who are drafted from ice form themselves into companies and
the Militia, because this is placing them in a choose their own officers. If we do anything to
better position than those who volunteer. He discourage the volunteer system, we do a seri-
would move, when the bill went into Com- ous injury to the affairs of the country. No
mittee, to make three years the term of serv- one has said otherwise than that the Volun-
ice for both classes. He would also move that teers have been a most important advantage
the word "officers" be struck out of the 45th to the country, and the military schools have
clause, because he thought it was degrading to proved an important success. If this bill is
place an officer in the same list as a private. carried into operation, the military schools
He was sure those officers would sooner serve should be kept in good condition, because if
at their dri ll without pay, than be placed in we hope for success we must have men
that position. The idea was absurd to give a schooled in military drill. We must have the
gentleman a commission in Her Majesty's
service, and then pay him less than a scaven- elements of the military art obtained in some
ger on the street. They should either pay him way, or a military organization will be of but
a sum commensurate with the duties he has to little consequence. If the officers of a company
perform, or else not pay him at all. He do not have the advantage of obtaining a
thought they should not interfere with the knowledge of dri ll , you have no means by
views of the Government in regard to this which you can put your machinery in motion.
bill, except in the minor matters which he The greatest objection which he saw to this
had mentioned. bill was that it discouraged to too great an
336 SENATE DEBATES May 18. 1868
extent the volunteer movement. That feature and Great Britain, on account of difficulties
of the bill he thought very ill-timed, because which might arise through the civil war which
the effect of discouraging volunteers would be was then raging in the neighbouring Republic.
to deprive the country of their services to a It was that state of affairs which suggested
great extent. This would be doing an injury to that report upon fortifications, and after
the country which could only be remedied by which the Hon. Postmaster-General says it is
time, because we find by experience that a shame that any man should say that this
when men are subject to draft they come out Dominion was indefensible. Perhaps it would
with reluctance, taking no interest in their be a shame to say we had no spirit or desire to
drill; they do nothing more than conform defend this country, but it is no shame to a
themselves to the simple requirements of the man to give his opinion in regard to the ad-
law. If you expect to have a military or- vantages, or disadvantages for defence which
ganization in a time of peace, in order to be this country possesses. We should look upon
prepared for difficulties when they arise, then the country as it is with 1,500 miles of frontier
you must have men who enter it with esprit to defend. The scripture says when a man
de corps, which will give them satisfaction builds a house he is to count the cost, and we,
and pleasure in the discharge of the duties when we grant large sums of money, should
devolving upon them. The remarks made consider the cost and the utility of the work.
upon the 45th Section show the effect which Col. Jervois says in one of the first remarks
that clause would have. It would be lowering which he makes in his report: "I observe that
the position of the officers of the Volunteers. It although owing to the length and nature of
was an object of ambition for a man to get a the frontier of Canada it is impossible to pro-
position in the army or navy, as it gave him a tect it through its whole extent, yet an enemy
position in life; the volunteer movement being must notwithstanding gain possession of cer-
something between the regular army and the tain vital points before they acquire any
ordinary militia, those who entered the serv- certain military advantage." It must be borne in
ice gained a credit and reputation before the mind that this report was made when there
country. When the salary of an officer, who was a probability of a conflict between the
has discharged his duties, has been reduced, it United States and Great Britain, and the
is looked upon as an indication for him to views expressed a re entirely Imperial in char-
resign, and in this way the officers of Volun- acter. Col. Jervois also says in his report that
teers will look upon it. It is not in regard to the main point is to fortify Lower Canada,
the amount of pay to which they will object, thus admitting that Upper Canada, in case of
but to being placed on a level with their a war must be abandoned. As a Lower
subordinates. He said it was impossible for Canadian he (Mr. Sanborn) could certainly
them to amend the bill on those money have no objection to this view of the case; at
clauses, but he thought they were deserving of the same time, situated as lie was, in the
some remark, and should call from them some eastern townships, he would not feel the ad-.
expression of their views. He had listened vantage of the fortifications erected at Mont-
with a great deal of interest to the remarks real as much as those who were on the other
made on the Bill on Fortifications by the side of the St. Lawrence. It is stated in this
Postmaster-General, who had presented the report that the country on the other side of
points which favoured it with earnestness and the St. Lawrence is indefensible, and he states
the very position which the Postmaster-
ability. There was one feature in his remarks
General says it is a shame to assert. The man
which did not strike him (Mr. Sanborn) very who has the charge of planning the
favourably; he (Mr. Campbell) took the posi- forticanshedviwtous,anhlde
tion that it was absolutely necessary to take not, in the discharge of our duty, look these
that measure with our whole hearts, and that to facts fairly in the face, in order to realize the
display any kind of doubt in regard to it was position, and ascertain what advantages these
equivalent to a feeling of disloyalty. He (Mr. fortifications would give? He was not pre-
Sanborn) did not think it necessary for us to pared to say that those fortifications should
place ourselves upon ground like this with an not be placed where it is contemplated to
expenditure of $5,000,000 to begin with. He erect them, but he would say that we were
thought the question should be viewed in all taking a very serious responsibility upon our-
its bearings from a Canadian as well as an selves, and it was one which was deserving of
Imperial standpoint. When Col. Jervois made much thought and deliberation. We should
his report there were serious apprehensions look at it as Canadians, because we cannot
felt of a conflict between the United States disguise the fact, that we may be left at some
May 18, 1868 SENATE DEBATES 337
future period to our own resources. We have formed upon that point before making a grant
been often told by members of the Parliament for those fortifications, but it having been
of Canada, when they were seeking to bring made, it becomes us to bow with grace to the
about Confederation, that we were verging decision the representatives of the people
towards a nationality, and that this Confed- have given upon this question. In doing so,
eration was a first step towards making us a however, he had felt it his duty to say some-
nation. The whole tenor of the remarks of thing upon both these measures, in answer to
British statesmen leads us to the conviction the remarks made so eloquently by the
that the responsibility of our becoming some- Postmaster-General, with an expectation that
thing great—or less great—according to our something would be said in reply. He thought
ability, depends upon ourselves, therefore it is it would not be treating his hon. friend with
our duty to view Canada as Canada alone. We the consideration he deserved, if we passed in
have here a home, a nationality—something of silence a measure of so much importance, and
which we have reason to be proud. We have he knew he (Mr. Campbell) would rather hear
also reason to be proud of the country to members who differed in opinion from him,
which we are attached, and of the Govern- than to have nothing said upon the subject.
ment which extends protection over us, but
we must have pride for Canada too. Viewing Hon. Mr. McCully said the subject of the
this matter we must not only view it from an defence of the country had been most elo-
Imperial point, of view, as for the interest of quently treated by his hon. friend (Mr. San-
the Empire, but we must view it in the light born), but he could not regard the subject in
of our own interest. The Postmaster-General the same light. It was a most important ques-
has told us of the amount expended by Great tion, and one upon which they should all give
Britain in keeping soldiers here. He (Mr. an opinion. He did not regret that the Gov-
Sanborn) believed that was not an increased ernment, had taken it upon themselves to
expenditure for Great Britain, as those sol- evince by the bills before the House that
diers must be kept, and they could be kept in there was a desire at the present time to meet,
Canada as cheaply as anywhere else. so far as our means will admit, the wishes of
the British Government in regard to the de-
Hon. Mr. Campbell—Every additional fence of the country. His hon. friend (Mr.
colnygivesthaformplyent Sanborn) had looked upon the Confederation
so many additional troops, therefore we a re of the Provinces from a different stand point
theocasinfmydtoalrps from what he did. He (Mr. McCully) had be-
being employed. lieved that unless these Provinces were
Confederated, and made one common capital
Hon. Mr. Sanborn did not think any larger throughout this Dominion, the time would not
number of troops was kept on account of be far distant when they would not have been
Canada being a possession of the British under British rule, and this had actuated him
Crown. If there were, it was for the mainte- in the interest he had taken in bringing about
nance of British power on this continent, from this measure, but whether it was for weal or
an Imperial, and not from a Canadi an, point woe depended upon the future. He felt that
of view. Suppose a war takes place between we were compelled to submit to a large
the United States and Great Britain, it would amount of taxation, but he hoped the Gov-
not be on account of any grievance which we ernment would use a great deal of economy,
have, as Canadians; yet the result would be and so expend this outlay required for for-
the devastation of the most beautiful and pro- tifications in such a way as would give satis-
ductive part of our country. Should we not faction to the country at large. He could not
then assert our own peculiar position, and expect that the entire scheme would have
show the state in which we would be placed
been left open for criticism, but at the same
by the contingencies of war. Then look at the
importance of the colonies to bring power and time he thought the Government had no right
prestige to Great Britain. Let her be shorn of to ask us to adopt these measures without
them, and where would her name be in the giving us all the information which they rea-
estimation of the world, in comparison to sonably can. The people of Nova Scotia are
what it is now? In regard to this bill, there is not likely to be much benefitted by this out-
no statement as to where these fortifications lay, because it had always been the policy of
are to be placed, or what they are to be. This the British Government to expend large sums
is an exceedingly important point, and one of money in Nova Scotia, but they were pre-
upon which we ought to be informed. The pared to make considerable sacrifice in order
House of Commons should have been in- to have connection between the sea shore and
99267-23
338 SENATE DEBATES May 18, 1868
Canada by the Intercolonial Railway. Had it ment strictly responsible in regard to dispens-
not been for the prospect of getting that road ing the means placed at their disposal for this
constructed, they would not have consented to service.
enter this Confederation. He was not prepared
to give an opinion in regard to the defence of Hon. Mr. Macpherson said that as these
this Dominion, more especially that portion of various Provinces had been united into one
it which extended fifteen hundred miles along Dominion, it was felt that an improved mili-
the lakes. He did not believe it possible to tary system was indispensible. This was now
defend the frontier of this country against being provided by this bill, but he regretted
invasion by a perfectly organized body on the that it did not give more encouragement to
other side of the border, but he believed that the organized Volunteers than they now re-
with the means under our control, if wisely ceive. He would be pleased to hear the hon.
spent, and with the assistance of England on Postmaster-General state the reasons why the
the Atlantic Ocean, it would be a long time Government had not given the Volunteers
before they would gain much advantage in more encouragement than they have done un-
Canada. For this reason he was prepared to der this bill. He thought they were a useful
assist the Government to such a reasonable organization and the system should be extend-
extent in regard to militia and fortifications as ed and every encouragement given them, but
would satisfy the people of England that the he feared that under this bill the movement
people of Canada were doing all which could would die out altogether. In regard to military
be reasonably expected of them. He believed schools, he thought they had been of great
that when the people of England knew of our service in the past, and he regarded them as
action in this matter it would increase their indispensible in the future. He said they
sympathy for us more than if we had been should also have navy schools, as they had a
drifting along year after year without endeav- large number of sailors, who were the best
ouring to help ourselves. Though there were material for forming a naval force. All they
some men in the British Parliament who were require is instruction in naval gunnery, and
endeavouring to get rid of these colonies, yet that can be imparted to them in the winter
he believed it was the sentiment of the British season when they are out of employment. He
nation, not only to spend their money, but to hoped that by next winter the Government
give us all the advantage the p re stige of that would have arrangements made by which
nation could give if we did but a reasonable they could receive this instruction. He also
share towards the defence of the country. If hoped the whole country was prepared to do
war were to come he believed a large portion its duty in the matter of defence, both as
of the Dominion would be trodden under foot, regards the militia and fortifications. With re-
and it was to prevent war we should organize spect to the cost of fortifications, that was a
and show such a front that would prevent matter the country would expect the Gov-
invasion. A large portion of this money is to ernment to exercise as judicious an economy
be spent to protect Montreal, which is the as possible. They will feel, however, that it is
commercial capital of the Dominion, and then necessary to meet the views of the Home
even if the west is devastated that city would Government so- far as circumstances will ad-
be a secure retreat for our forces. For these mit. There was great force in what some hon.
reasons, and these only, he would consent to members have said, that circumstances have
changed very much since these measures were
give his support to these measures. He felt the
urged upon us, and that we are returning to a
force of the remarks which the Postmaster- state of affairs which existed before the la-
General addressed to the House in reference mentable war broke out in the United States,
to the bills coming from the people's rep- when we had no fear of invasion from our
resentatives. They are the judges, having neighbours. He hoped that time would return
come from the people and to whom they must it would not be necessary to make any
give an account of their stewardship; heavy expenditure in the matter of defence
therefore, it is not for us to intervene with refer- generally, but at the present time, he thought
ence to the amount of means which they are it would be well for us to maintain an efficient
willing to appropriate for the defence of this militia, and to expend a reasonable sum in
fortifications, in view of troubles which may
Empire . He did not undervalue the difficulties arise with our neighbours, or rather from
which might occur in providing for our de- those organizations of Fenians who have,
fence, but he knew of no more legitimate way placed themselves under their protection. One
of obviating those difficulties than by making objection which he had to this Militia Bil l.
this appropriation, and holding the Govern- was, that he feared an efficient militia could
May 18, 1868 SENATE DEBATES 339
not be organized under it, as the time allowed but he would be obliged if the Postmaster-
for drill—from eight to sixteen days—was not General would give an explanation in respect
sufficient for the purpose, and for this reason to the want of encouragement to the Volun-
he thought that the volunteer movement teers which is in this bill.
ought still to be encouraged. With regard to
the expenditure upon the different fortifica- Hon. Mr. Wark said although a considerable
tions he thought that was a matter for the expenditure was involved in these measures,
military authorities to determine. It would not yet he did not think it was more, considering
be right for us to say that unless a certain the resources of the Dominion, than we should
amount of money is expended in our locality, expend for the defence of the country. He did
we will go against the bill; it is only the not think it was more than was required at
military authorities who can say where these the present time, and certainly it was not
fortifications can be most advantageously more than the people of the United Kingdom
placed. Montreal is an important point, and it had a right to expect from us. We have until
is one which we all admit would be a costly this time been protected in a paternal way by
place to fortify, but while the military au- the Mother Country, but we have now as-
thorities were considering the cost of these sumed a more advanced position. He looked
fortifications, he hoped they would not disre- upon this Dominion as a member of the Em-
gard the necessity for defending the western pire, and it was a great mistake for people to
peninsula. It has been said that Montreal was talk of separating this Dominion from the
the heart of the country, and if it was taken Mother Country. We could not afford to sepa-
the country would be cut in two and the west rate, the one country being necessary to the
would be of little value. Whether that would other, and vice versa. Every statesman in
be the case or not, every one would admit that England must see the importance of the
if the west was overrun and the supplies cut Colonies to Great Britain, in the event of a
off, Montreal would, in a military sense, be in war, to give them aid, and to furnish coal for
a worthless condition. His hon. friend their steamships,, because those ships are use-
(Mr. McCully) had spoken of the large amount ful just in proportion to their obtaining sup-
of increased expenditure which had been plies of fuel. A great many speak of the
undertaken by the country, and he seemed to United States, as though in the event of a war
cast the blame of it upon the Government. In they could choose their own battle ground, as
this he was scarcely just, as Imperial Legis- England and France did in the Russian war.
lation has forced upon this Government th e We know they must meet the whole power of
the British Empire on the ocean, and that is
intaofmesurvlingaye
one reason why they will not involve them-
expenditure for the Intercolonial Railway, selves in a war. We cannot afford to fortify our
which amounts to upwards of two-thirds of whole frontier, but the very circumstance of
the actual expenditure provided for this our having fortified certain strong points will
Session. That measure found its place in the convince our neighbours, in the event of war
Imperial Act from the imperative demands of that they cannot obtain possession of any
the representatives from the Maritime important point in the Dominion. They
Provinces. One gentleman here (Mr. McCully) know that their commerce must be exposed
said the Maritime Provinces insisted upon the on every sea, as all the steamers sailing from
New York across the Atlantic are owned in
construction of the Intercolonial Railway and
Europe, and would in a short time be convert-
without it nothing would have induced Nova ed into privateers. If their commerce suffered
Scotia to consent to enter this Union. If the so much from a few privateers from the
large expenditure connected with the con- Southern States, how much more would it suf-
struction of this road has been forced upon us fer from the fleet of Great Britain. These cir-
by his Maritime friends, it is scarcely just in cumstances will go far to prevent a war
them to reproach us with that expenditure. If between the two countries. He hoped that in the
they think that costly work can be dispensed defence of our country we would go on step by
with there was no doubt but they could get step—first the organization of the militia, and
that agreement cancelled, but he believed then the erection of fortifications. At the same
time he would much rather see the money
they had no wish to do so, therefore they
expended in fortifications spent in enlarging
should not reproach the Government for our canals, as that would be the best protec-
burdening the country with an expenditure in tion against a war with the United States,
which they really have no option. He would because it would put the people of a portion
not occupy the time of the House any further, of the Western States under an obligation to
340 SENATE DEBATES May 18, 1868
Canada for a cheaper and better outlet to the that Great Britain and her colonies together
ocean than they have on their own railways should form the British Empire, and that we
or canals, and whilst they would be compelled as a free people-having the benefit of British
to construct war vessels on the lakes, these laws, British institutions, and the privileges
canals would admit for us any amount of dependent upon British connection—should
gunboats which would destroy any fortifica- bear our fair share of the burden of defending
tions they might erect. He agreed with what the whole Empire and maintaining its integ-
had been said in regard to the efficiency of the rity. This is a just and right view of the
Volunteers, and it was not fair that after pub- question. He was present on the occa-
lic spirited young men had given up their time sion referred to by his hon. friend (Mr.
and means in organizing and carrying for- Wilmot), when a gentleman occupying a high
ward this volunteer mcuement, they should be position in England referred to the expense
treated with indifference by wealthy in- the colonies Were to the British Treasury,
dividuals, who should be compelled ay tax- ana ne referred to the fact that a great deal of
ation to support them. At the same time he British blood and British treasure had been
did not think militia dri ll in this country spent in British America. Great Britain, he
should be left entirely to the Volunteers, be- said, suffered a great deal of disadvantage in
cause it was desirable that every man capable maintaining the liberties and rights of the
of carrying arms should know something country. When these statements were made
about the use of them. He would like to see a he (Mr. Mitchell) had felt the question was
system of drilling introduced into schools to not fairly put, and that the gentleman addres-
give boys from twelve to fourteen years of sing the assembly did not understand the
age some idea of the use of arms. question. He (Mr. Mitchell) had the satisfac-
tion of showing to that assembly, in which
Hon. Mr. Wilmot said it was a fact to be were some of the noblemen of England, the
much regretted that a portion of the British unfair position in which the speaker had placed
people, and he feared no very inconsiderable
these colonies when he said that troops had
portion of them, were preparing the way to
to be sent to St. John, and marched through
throw this and other distant Colonies on their
to Canada amid snows and storms in the
own resources as regards their self-defence,
month of December at a great risk of life. He
which will appear from late debates in the
(Mr. Mitchell) took the opportunity of asking
British House of Parliament, and on other
whose battles they went to fight? Was it to
great public occasions, when allusion was
fight the battles of the Canadian people? Was
made to the dangers to life, and the hardships
it in defence of the liberties of all the people in
and expenses attending the marching of the
British America, or was it to protect the liber-
troops from Halifax to the interior of Canada
ties of a British quarter-deck from the invasion
in the winter season through mud and snow to
of a foe? Was it not the attempt made to
defend this country. He hoped this large
amount would be judiciously expended, so as lessen the protection which the British flag
to yield us some lasting benefit in return. gave which was the occasion of those troops
being sent to Canada? The expressions to
Hon. Mr. Mitchell said this was a measure which he had given utterance in that as-
which suited the wants and requirements of sembly, drew from the audience expressions
the country, and from what he could learn of satisfaction and approval. The numbers of
from the people and their representatives, he those in England who wish to throw us upon
must conclude that it was one that would give our own protection is very small; all the
satisfaction to the country. It was satisfactory British people ask of us is that if British
to the Government to know that the pledges treasure is to be spent in Canada, we should
given by them to the British Government that pay our just share to maintain the rights and
the people of this country were not disposed liberties of the country. He did not think there
to depend entirely upon the people of England was a single man on the floor of the House,
to defend them, is likely to be realized. Not- or any man who wished to remain a British
withstanding what had been said by his hon. subject, but was willing to contribute his fair
friend (Mr. Wilmot) in regard to the senti- share for the defence of the country. These bi lls
ments uttered in his presence when in will be an evidence to the pe ople of England
England, he (Mr. Mitchell) believed that the that we desire to maintain British power on
sentiments of the English people were not this Continent, and it will be an argument
to cast off the colonies. The sentiment is not against the reasoning of those who desire to
that the colonies should defend themselves, or sever the connection between us and the
that England should get rid of them, but it is British Empire. He thought the argument used
May 18, 1868 SENATE DEBATES 341
by his hon. friend (Mr. Sanborn), that if The Committee have carefully examined
England had not these colonies she would the following documents and recommend that
have to maintain her troops elsewhere, was they be printed, viz.:
wrong. If Great Britain was denuded Return to an address from the House of
of her colonies, the number of troops Commons; for a copy of the address of the
required to maintain and protect her rights House of Assembly of Nova Scotia, to the
would be very much less than they are now, British Government, for the repeal of so much
and so far from making these colonies a of the British North American Act as refers to
means of employing troops they only come that province &c.; also the instructions to
here as a measure of necessity. He did not the Hon. Mr. Tupper on the same subject,
think it was necessary to say much in refer- before or since his departure.
ence to the remarks made concerning the Return to an address from the House of
length of our frontier, as that was a point they Commons, correspondence which has passed
might as well leave to military men, but he
between the Canadian and the Imperial
felt that so long as we remained defenceless
Governments as to the status, rights and
we invited attack.
privileges abroad of British subjects natural-
The bill was then read a second time and ized in any one of the Provinces of the Do-
referred to a Committee of the Whole House, minion.
Hon. Mr. McCrea in the chair. Return and supplementary return to an ad-
dress from the House of Commons; corre-
Reported the same without amendment.
spondence between the Government of the
And on motion of Hon. Mr. Campbell, sec- late Province of Canada, and the Govern-
onded by Hon. Mr. Mitchell, the 42nd rule ments of the Dominion and Newfoundland, as
was suspended, the said bill read a third time to the disputed boundary line between the
and passed on a division, and ordered to be two countries in Labrador (Distribution only.)
sent to the House of Commons to acquaint
Return to an address from the House of
that House that the Senate have passed this
bill without any amendment. Commons, showing the number of vessels
owned in the Dominion of Canada, on the 1st
A message was received from the House of July, 1867, and showing whether they are
Commons With a Bill intituled, "An Act to steamers or sailing vessels, &c.
continue for a limited time the several Acts Return to an address from the House of
therein mentioned," which was read a first Commons, showing the number of railways in
time, and ordered to be read 'a second time the Dominion of Canada, when built, length,
to-morrow. cost of construction, &c.
Also a message from the Commons, with a Statement in obedience to the order of the
Bill intituled, "An Act for the regulation of House of Commons, showing the names of the
Fishing and protection of Fisheries," to which shareholders of the several banks of the Do-
they desire the concurrence of this House, minion, with the amounts of stock held by
which bill was read a first time, and ordered each, &c.
to be read a second time to-morrow.
Second report of the Committee of the House
"An Act respecting the commencement of of Commons, on Immigration and Colonization.
certain Acts of this Session therein men-
Return to address, House of Commons; for
tioned," was read a second time, and ordered
that the 42nd rule be dispensed with as far as the amount of securities, whether bonds or
stock issued by the. Dominion of Canada
it relates to this bill, and that the same be
read a third time and passed. since 1st July last, with the rate of interest,
nature of securities, &c., &c.
An Act respecting Forgery, Perjury and
Return to address, House of Commons; re-
Intimidation in connection with the Provincial
Legislatures and their Acts, was read a first ports made by the officers of the geological
survey with reference to the gold districts of
time, and ordered for a second reading at the
next sitting of the House. Nova Scotia.
Petition of Thomas McGoey and others, of
Hon. Mr. Burnham, from the Joint Com- the district of Ottawa and its vicinity; praying
mittee of the Senate and House of Commons, for an investigation into the conduct and acts
on the Printing of Parliament, presented of the Honourable Aimé Lafontaine, Judge of
their 15th report. the Superior Court in and for the said district.
Ordered, that it be received, and the same Report of the Committee on privileges and
was then read by the Clerk as follows: elections.
342 SENATE DEBATES May 18, 1868
Letter of Job Wilkinson, Esq., dated 4th ernment of the late Province of Canada,
February, 1852, with the papers connected or the Government of the Dominion, and the
therewith, on the report of Major Robinson, Government of Newfoundland in relation to
Intercolonial Railway.—(Distribution only.) duties of customs which the latter Govern-
Return to address, House of Commons; ment exacts from our fishermen, on articles
showing what sum or sums of money (if any) used in the fisheries, &c.
have been paid out of the Consolidated Return to an address from the House of
Revenue Fund of the late P rovince of Canada, Commons—return of fines imposed, and seiz-
and of the Dominion, to the credit of the ures made in the county of Digby, for
Upper Canada (now Ontario) Municipal Loan breaches of the re venue laws, since the first
Fund, under the provisions of the Seigniorial day of July last, &c.
Amendment Act, 1859, with the date of pay- Return to an address from the House of
ments, &c. Commons—statement of accounts rendered to
Return to address, and supplementary the Government by the proprietors of the
return, House of Commons; For all reports since Gazette de Sorel; and likewise a statement of
1st July, 1867, to the Government, which may all moneys paid to the same, with date of such
have been made by surveyors, or other officers payments, the whole since 1862 inclusive.
employed to construct roads and other works Return to an address from the House of
for the opening communication between the Commons—copies of contracts entered into
head of Lake Superior and the Red River. with Robert H. McGreevy, for work done on
Message from the Governor-General, with Public Buildings, Ottawa.
despatch from the Secretary of State, in an- All of which is respectfully submitted.
swer to the joint address from the Senate and
House of Commons to Her Majesty, praying Asa A. Burnham,
the annexation to Canada of Rupert's Land Chairman.
and the Northwest Territory.
On motion of Hon. Mr. Burnham, seconded
The Committee also recommend that the
by Hon. Mr. Shaw, it was ordered, that the
following documents be not printed, viz.:
said report be taken into consideration by the
Return to an address from Senate, on the House to-morrow.
subject of the encouragement of the building
of ships of wood and iron known as composite The House then resolved itself into Com-
vessels. mittee of the Whole on the Bill intituled "An
Act respecting copyrights," (Hon. Mr. Reesor
Return to an address from House of Com-
mons—statement of convictions and penalties in the chair,) who reported the same with
levied under Fisheries and Game Acts, by several amendments, which were concurred
John McLaren Esq., during 1866 and 1867. in. The bill was then read a third time and
passed.
Return to an address from the House of
Commons—statement of number of sittings, An Act respecting forgery, perjury and in-
their date and duration, of the Court at Am- timidation, in connection with the Provincial
herst, in the Magdalen Islands, since its estab- Legislatures and their Acts, was ordered to be
lishment, and all correspondence between the postponed until to-morrow, on motion of Hon.
Government and the Judges of the district of Mr. Campbell, seconded by Hon. Mr. Mitchell.
Gaspé, &c. The amendments proposed by the Com-
Return to an address from the House of mittee of the whole House to the Bi ll intituled
Commons—copies of all memorials addressed "An Act to incorporate the Canadian Lake
to the Government on the subject of the duty Underwriters' Association," were then consid-
on hops. ered, which said amendments were severally
Return to an address from the House of concurred in, the bill was read a third time as
Commons--return of all surveys and reports amended, passed, and ordered to be taken to
relating to harbors on the east coast of Lake the House of Commons, and acquaint that
Huron; also, all reports relative to said sur- House that the Senate had passed this bill
veys of harbours of refuge or otherwise,
north of the town of Goderich, &c. with several amendments, to which they
asked their concurrence.
Return to an address from the House of
Commons—correspondence between the Gov- The House then adjourned.