2001Guestbook - Download as Excel by oFqnyJB9

VIEWS: 74 PAGES: 913

									Monday 12/31/2001 5:58:40pm
          Name: Helen
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location: Northern Ireland
     Comments: Hi everyone,
                 There are many singers and bands who are into animal rights that are famous.To name some-
                 Paul McCartney,Chrissie Hynde-The Pretenders,The Smiths,Morrissey,Bush,Jamiroquai-
                 oppose vivisection,Echobelly,Manic Street Preachers-lyric"the horror of a bullfight".I'm
                 confident that if these people were to get together and release an album about animal rights it
                 would get through to alot of people and help our cause.Whether that happens or not is another
                 thing!



Monday 12/31/2001 11:55:53am
          Name: The Triangle Group
         E-Mail: thetriangle@yourwap.com
 Homepage URL: http://www.geocities.com/thetrianglegroup_uk
       Location: UK, US, Belgium, Australia
     Comments: We feel as said earlier that AR bands are a great idea and would like more mainstream bands to
                 incorporate it into their lyrics, however we would also like more mainstream bands to do this as
                 it would reach a larger audience this way. Goldfinger are quite rightly aimed towards the
                 younger generation, of which I myself am a part of, and the music is not aimed towards 'ma and
                 pa' as you put it. However there is one major flaw there.....it is 'ma and pa' that are the average
                 animal abuser. There are not many people of our generation who work as vivisectors or in the
                 meat trade. It should be the older generation who we should be aiming our point at, as they are
                 the people who have been brought up to believe animals are less worthy of life.


                    Our generation is a lot more knowlegable about AR and it should be the older generation who
                    needs to be educated about AR.

                    To all AR bands out there, keep writing, keep playing (especially Goldfinger) and we hope it
                    goes well for all of them, as they are providing a voice for the voiceless.
                    Keep Fighting
                    The Triangle Group..UK Section



Monday 12/31/2001 11:16:15am
          Name:
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
       Comments: "We were not saying earlier that AR bands are wrong, and we have heard a lot of the music
                 produced by Goldfinger and some of it spreads a good message. What we said earlier was that
                 the song in question, if heard by the mass public, is more likely to be harmful to the movement
                 as it sounds like mindless rage with no substance. We would like to point out that we were
                 never downgrading the band, their music or AR bands in any way as we support them fully.
                 And we hope they keep up their good work in the future."


                   ---I know you weren't saying AR bands
                   are wrong. I knew what you meant. What I'm saying is that this song will not be heard by the
                   mass public, only by those who enjoy this type of music. My point is, the folks who go to see
                   Goldfinger perform obviously already like this type of music. I think it's cool that they have a
                   song like this, particularly since it is directed at an animal abusing pr*ck like Ted McNugget.
                   As for this song being seen as mindless rage, 90% of rock could be viewed as such. Again, it's
                   not targeted for ma and pa, but rather towards people of a new generation. If you think about it,
                   it's not mindless rage at all, but sends a clear message that not all folks will tolerate such blatant
                   animal expoitation/abuse. I would agree that if the radio stations were playing this song, it
                   might turn *some* people off, but the fact is, radio stations cannot air this particular song due
                   to the language content. So, I reiterate, only the folks who listen to and like Goldfinger will be
                   getting the message the song speaks of. Those folks might not otherwise hear of animal rights,
                   etc. I think the more bands there are who incorporate ARs into their music, the better. BUT, is
                   it not better to target ALL audiences? Some folks like "mindless rage" type of music, therefore,


Monday 12/31/2001 6:30:42am
          Name: Steve Schimelpfenig
         E-Mail: orderofdeathhead@yahoo.com
 Homepage URL:
       Location: Vancouver, WA
     Comments: Landfill-Assassins- CD Dark electronic industrial blended with guitars,samples. Cd is $10.00
                 postage paid worldwide. $3.00 from every Cd sold goes to PDX Food not Bombs, National
                 Foundation for Neglected and Abused Children, and Stop Huntingdon Animal Cruelty. E-mail
                 me for more ordering information.



Monday 12/31/2001 0:18:46am
          Name: The Triangle Group
         E-Mail: thetriangle@yourwap.com
 Homepage URL: http://www.geocities.com/thetrianglegroup_uk
       Location: UK, US, Belgium, Australia
     Comments: Helen, We have also seen this artice and it has to be taken subjectively. This article was meant
                 to make meat eaters feel uncomfortable with their choices about the animals they eat, and we
                 think it is a good point.
       Comments:



                    For example...how can a person believe in the ethical treatment of dogs when they eat beef for
                    their meal afterwards. It is double standards brought on my aesthetics. Puppies are cute and
                    cuddly and a cow is not therefore one deserves to die and the other deserves to be protected,
                    however we feel that this should not be the case. We believe that all life should be protected,
                    whether they are fun to play with or not. Whales were used as an example by PETA because
                    they are a majestic creature whom is regared to be deserving of protection by most people in
                    the west, and we think it was an example used to good effect.

                    Keep Fighting
                    The Triangle Group..UK Section



Sunday 12/30/2001 11:27:40pm
           Name: Helen
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location: Northern Ireland
      Comments: As a member of PETA,I'm not one for criticising them.However,I disagree with one of their
                  recent campaigns.
                  I've just come from a PETA site which was very ambiguous to say the least.It was encouraging



Sunday 12/30/2001 1:22:29pm
           Name: The Triangle Group
          E-Mail: thetriangle@yourwap.com
 Homepage URL: http://www.geocities.com/thetrianglegroup_uk
        Location: UK, US, Belgium, Australia
      Comments: We were not saying earlier that AR bands are wrong, and we have heard a lot of the music
                  produced by Goldfinger and some of it spreads a good message. What we said earlier was that
                  the song in question, if heard by the mass public, is more likely to be harmful to the movement
                  as it sounds like mindless rage with no substance. We would like to point out that we were
                  never downgrading the band, their music or AR bands in any way as we support them fully.
                  And we hope they keep up their good work in the future.

                    Keep Fighting
                    The Triangle Group..UK Section



Sunday 12/30/2001 12:10:53am
           Name: BD
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments:

                    Ahhh yes, trapping season. Here's a bit of information that proves trapper's lie about their
                    catches. Trapper's will tell you non-target animals trapped are minimal. Yeah, tell that to the
                    owners of these dogs...
       Comments:




                    posted 12-29-2001 06:54 PM
                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    I caught an 80 pound chow in a 1.75 this year and he left blood on the trap as you describe. he
                    also had the spring pin partly pulled out and bent the levers and dog up. however he was still in
                    the trap. he realy didn't jump and pound the trap like a coyote there wasn't much of a catch
                    circle either. the ground was not froze. he aparently just set there and mangled the trap with his
                    mouth, which is where the blood came from.Tom M.

                    posted 12-29-2001 09:54 PM
                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    I'm guessing a big dog, probably a lab mix. I've had two differnt cases where a dog bit my trap
                    and broke a tooth, leaving a lot of blood. One bird dog cost me a lot of good trapping land.
                    Dogs are funny, most won't fight the trap hard, but the high strung ones can really go nuts.



Sunday 12/30/2001 11:57:10am
           Name:
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: I disagree, Triangle Group. This particular band targets a certain audience, not your 40+ age
                  group. It's more of a punk group and they get the message across to their younger listeners.
                  They are growing in popularity, and this should send a message. The folks who listen to this
                  music might not otherwise hear about animal rights, and I believe the bands record sales prove
                  no deterence due to this song or the bands ideals. AR bands are a great idea, and there are
                  different bands who target a specific audience. For instance, I would never buy my mother a
                  "Goldfinger" C.D., but I would buy one for one of my brothers. Linda Gentile might be more to
                  my Mother's liking. I don't believe "Goldfinger" is sending a negative message to the general
                  public, because the general public has probably never heard of them. Targeting a specific
                  market (age group, music preference)is good business and has no negative impact.




Sunday 12/30/2001 11:24:10am
           Name: The Triangle Group
          E-Mail: thetriangle@yourwap.com
 Homepage URL: http://www.geocities.com/thetrianglegroup_uk
        Location: UK, US, Belgium, Australia
      Comments: We feel that animal rights bands are a good idea as they help promote the movement and give
                  animals a voice they so sorely need, however the last song quoted on the guestbook we feel
                  would not help the movement in any way. In fact it will actually harm the animal rights cause as
                  it is nothing more than a tyrade or abuse towards (admittedly someone who deserves it) an
                  animal abuser.

                    The average person on the street would look at those lyrics and simply turn away, seeing it as
                    mindless anger, instead of actually relaying a message, and this is our point.
                    To win this war we have to appeal to the common person on the street, as they are the ones we
                    need to get to stand next to us on the demo line. Numbers mean victory..and the more we have
                    on our side....the more likely we are to win.
                   Good luck to the band though, and keep up the work
                   Keep Fighting
                   The Triangle Group..UK section



Sunday 12/30/2001 10:42:19am
           Name:
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: Any of you ever heard of the band "Goldfinger"? They promote animal rights. And they are
                  getting pretty big. They even endorse PETA. Here's the lyrics to one of their songs, and it
                  happens to be my favorite song of theirs:

                   Ted Nugent


                   @#%$! ted nugent he's a @#%$! jerk
                   i wish that he'd be gone
                   chauvanistic republican
                   kills animals cause he
                   forgot how to write a song

                   he's a dick!
                   @#%$! him!
                   asshole!
                   @#%$! him!

                   @#%$! ted nugent, @#%$! the NRA
                   and @#%$! their attitude
                   he thinks riding a buffalo
                   and wearing oakleys
                   will make him look real cool

                   he's a dick!
                   @#%$! him!
                   asshole!
                   @#%$! him!

                   he thinks he'll get the girls,
                   by killing little squirrels

                   and farrah faucett
                   fur wearing @#%$! twat
                   hoped for a comeback
                   she thinks its cool to shock
                   genitals of animals
                   cuz she can't stop smoking crack
                   shes a @#%$!!
                   @#%$! her!
                   asshole!
                    @#%$! her!

                    shes a @#%$!!
                    @#%$! her!
                    asshole!
                    @#%$! her!

                    one more time....

                    @#%$! ted nugent!



Sunday 12/30/2001 1:28:46am
           Name: BD
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments:

                    Hi Cat. It's been a while since I've heard from you. I wish you an active and safe 2002. Nah,
                    you don't want to know about 'eightball', he/she was just another idiot trying to piss off ARAs.
                    Hope to hear from you soon.
                    Peace,
                    BD



Saturday 12/29/2001 11:40:06pm
            Name: The Cat
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Just wishing you all an active 2002, who is eightball or should I even ask, seems to me there
                   should be a posting if there is an answer or maybe eighthball should be just be no ball. Anyway
                   love and peace to all.


Saturday 12/29/2001 5:28:31pm
            Name: Sue
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
         Location: uk
       Comments: Great site, well done on everything you do. Thank God for you good people. Just wanted you
                   to know that I totally respect you and all that you do. Keep up the good work.




Saturday 12/29/2001 3:39:12pm
            Name: Katy L
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
      Location: Michigan, USA
     Comments: I think your webpage is great!! It shows alot of really cool information! I love it.



Friday 12/28/2001 8:52:33pm
            Name: The Triangle Group
           E-Mail: thetriangle@yourwap.com
 Homepage URL: http://www.geocities.com/thetrianglegroup_uk
         Location: UK, US, Belgium, Australia
       Comments: We feel it would be wrong to rise to the comments of Eightball as we believe this is exactly
                   what was wanted when his response was posted.
                   Therefore this person has already achieved much more press than his comment deserved and
                   we think it should be put to bed. In the pefect world this is the sort of person that should be
                   removed from the equation, forcibly if necessary, however this is not a perfect society. If it was
                   then there would never be animal abuse at all.

                    This is why all animal rights activists need to unite as one voice, so people like Eightball can be
                    shouted down with a cogent argument, as he is not alone in society and this is the only way to
                    make the rest of the world listen.

                    When people like this person get the last word, then we have all failed.
                    Keep Fighting
                    The Triangle Group...All Sections,ALF response: I agree. Posts that seem to be written to get
                    the goat of animal rights activists, and nothing more (and responses to them)will be deleted. If
                    the fool's email is valid, write to them if you wish. Those posts serve no purpose here.




Thursday 12/27/2001 6:11:12pm
           Name: The Triangle Group
          E-Mail: thetriangle@yourwap.com
 Homepage URL: http://www.geocities.com/thetrianglegroup_uk
        Location: UK, US, Belgium, Australia
      Comments: Sadly we believe that the thought of an animal rights MP is a fairy tale as there is no
                  constituancy in this country that would offer enough votes to a non-established party suck as
                  Labour or Conservative. However that does not mean it would be a bad idea to try. A deposit in
                  any area allows the candidate to make public forum speeches etc. This could be a great outlet
                  for our message.

                    If anyone is interested in possibly beomming involved in Animal politics and even an animal
                    party then email our site or even sign our guestbook with support...as we believe this would be
                    the most influencial form of direct action possible. It is the only way to really attack animal
                    cruelty at the head of the problem.
                    Keep Fighting
                    The Triangle group



Thursday 12/27/2001 4:16:27pm
         Name: Helen
        E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
      Location: Northern Ireland
     Comments: I agree with the triangle.We do need an animal rights political party.
                Obviously,it wouldn't become government but I believe we could get a couple of MP's in to
                fight for our cause.


Thursday 12/27/2001 4:03:05pm
           Name: The Triangle Group
          E-Mail: thetriangle@yourwap.com
 Homepage URL: http://www.geocities.com/thetrianglegroup_uk
        Location: UK, US, Belgium, Australia
      Comments: Tony Blair has not done much for the quality of animals in the UK because he is a politician
                  and his hands are tied. No political party really cares about animal rights, simpy because it does
                  not win enouh votes to concentrate on it. That is why an animal rights political party is
                  needed....in the same vein as the Green Party. This party would never receive any seats or never
                  gain much power but it would bring the issue of animal rights firmly to Westminster if there
                  were people around to give them a constant reminder.


                    If was the case then by law after an election deposit was placed the party would have to receive
                    national airtime etc. and advertisement, as well as invitations to national discussion forums, and
                    this is the only real way of making politicians listen to us.
                    Keep Fighting
                    The Triangle....UK Section



Wednesday 12/26/2001 11:11:36pm
          Name: The Cat and the Black and White Feline
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: We feel that Tony Blair and his cohorts have reneged on their promises. Many people gave of
                 their votes and money to elect him into power. The New Life for Animal Manfesto is a joke.
                 He had no intention of delivering his promises. We demand that all the promises of this
                 manifesto are kept or Tony returns the cash.



Wednesday 12/26/2001 10:51:19pm
          Name: The Black and White Feline and The Cat
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
       Comments: Thanks for your very prompt posting. Check out SarahM@Bluecross.org.uk News of the
                 appointment of The Duke of Westminster was in the latest edition of the Blue Cross magazine
                 sent out to all regular supporters. Please also check out www.labouranimalwelfaresociety.org
                 You don't have to be a member but requests to post on the forum and articles are needed to
                 place specific animal rights and welfare issues into the political arena.




Wednesday 12/26/2001 10:28:47pm
          Name: The Triangle Group
         E-Mail: thetriangle@yourwap.com
 Homepage URL: http://www.geocities.com/thetrianglegroup_uk
       Location: UK, US, Belgium, Australia
     Comments: We were unaware that the Duke of Westminster had been made the Pro Hunting spokesperson
                 for the blue Cross. Could some proof of this be mailed to our website as conformation would
                 allow us to get in contact with his office to find out more information.


                   And as Tony Blair is concerned, I myself (the writer of this post) am not a labour supporter
                   however it seems that his current government seems to be making some headway into the rights
                   of animals in the UK (well, headway compared to last governments which seemed to have done
                   nothing). I think we should give the UK government some time in this matter, and maybe they
                   will surprise us. Keep Fighting
                   The Triangle



Wednesday 12/26/2001 9:14:06pm
          Name: The Black and White Feline
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: Please visit www.labouranimalwelfaresociety.org. This is a new site and the objects are to
                 influence policy and decision making at all levels of the labour movement to improve the
                 welfare of animals - but it should be stressed you do not have to be a member of the labour
                 party This organisation promotes the belief that humans have obligations to other species. Also
                 remember that Tony Blair entered Government with promises that so far have not been
                 realised. Visit the site and keep up the pressure on Tony to keep his promises. Many people
                 gave money and votes, don't allow him to renege on his promises to the voters of the UK.



Wednesday 12/26/2001 6:54:58pm
          Name: The Cat
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
       Comments: Doesn't surprise me in the slightest. All these so called welfare groups love the rich and famous
                 for their figureheads. Time they were shamed into excluding these people from their executive.
                 Nice one Black and White Feline. And while we are at it what about Elizabeth 11 Patron of
                 RSPCA and Battersea Dogs Home and Prince Philip WWF. Time we did as the Dutch did,
                 kicked their Queen off the Dutch equivalent of UK RSPCA. She loves hunting pigs on her
                 estate. Just shows what these sick charities are all about money, prestige and their wine and
                 cheese parties.



Wednesday 12/26/2001 6:42:19pm
          Name: Helen
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location: Northern Ireland
     Comments: I wasn't aware that the Blue Cross had appointed him.I support most animal welfare groups but
                 I do think there is a difference between animal welfare groups and animal rights groups.

                   I recently seen a programme on BBC1 about factory farming.The conditions the animals were



Wednesday 12/26/2001 6:20:41pm
          Name: The Black and White Feline
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: Are people generally aware that the Blue Cross animal welfare organisation has appointed a pro
                 hunting patron - the Duke of Westminster - whilst claiming to have respect and concern for all
                 creatures. Does this mean the Blue Cross supports hunting? Presumably it must or why else
                 would it have appointed such a man as patron. What are your comments on this?




Wednesday 12/26/2001 4:42:11am
          Name: Barb
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location: New Jersey, U.S.A.
     Comments: ALF is the greatest--keep up the good work. I have an ALF "T-shirt" that I wear to various
                 functions and get some real positive or negative comments from people on it. Really gets
                 people thinking. Do you sell these T-shirts anymore??ALF response: We've never sold
                 anything from this website. NoCompromise.com sold ALF T-shirts at one time. If you find
                 others, please let us know.



Tuesday 12/25/2001 11:12:36am
           Name: The Triangle Group
          E-Mail: thetriangle@yourwap.com
 Homepage URL: http://www.geocities.com/thetrianglegroup_uk
        Location: UK, US, Belgium, Australia
       Comments: Merry Christmas to everyone involved in the Animal Liberation movement. Even though
                  Christmas is directly responsible for the deaths of over 50 million animals in the UK alone, it is
                  still worth noting as a way to let the world know there is a way to celebrate the holiday without
                  cruelty. Everyone have a great time, and lets see if we can make an even bigger difference in
                  2002 to the lives of all innocent animals.
                  Keep Fighting
                  The Triangle...All Sections


Monday 12/24/2001 8:52:07pm
          Name: The Cat
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: Tried to sign up with the discussion forum, had no joy, is it me or is there a problem? ALF:
                 Thanks for the input, Cat. We're still working on it.



Monday 12/24/2001 4:54:04pm
          Name: Helen
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location: Northern Ireland
     Comments: The EU is planning to murder up to 50 milliom animals in chemical tests.
                 For more information on this please check out www.petaeurope.com.It contains information on
                 ways to help prevent this massacre from taking place,people to contact etc.

                    Happy Christmas & a Merry New Year to animal liberationists everywhere.Shite one to our
                    enemies!



Monday 12/24/2001 7:42:02am
          Name: mike s.
         E-Mail: rainbow_seaman@yahoo.com
 Homepage URL:
       Location: California, USA
     Comments: i think that what you're doing is exraordinary. i'm going to try and help in any way i can. i know
                 i wont be able to do much but i'll try to help in some way.



Sunday 12/23/2001 9:53:45am
           Name: The Cat
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: Thanks for all your input Triangle, yes we are working together no criticism intended, only an
                  observation, good to have you people around, keep posting. Wishing all who post an "active"
                  Christmas and an even more "active" 2002. Peace to all species.
Saturday 12/22/2001 11:51:30pm
            Name: The Triangle Group
          E-Mail: thetriangle@yourwap.com
 Homepage URL: http://www.geocities.com/thetrianglegroup_uk
         Location: UK, US, Belgium, Australia
       Comments: Vanity was meant in a subjective way....humanity belives that it ihas the right to kill and torture
                   any species it wants to because mankind thinks it is better. This is a vain assumption which is
                   why vanity was mentioned. This also comes under the pleasure banner as well as people eat
                   meat for the pleasure it gives them, instead of caring more about the life that was taken for that
                   pleasure. We were not saying that Cat or anyone was wrong...we are all supposed to be working
                   together. Anyway, thanks for all of your help.

                    The Triangle Group


Saturday 12/22/2001 8:38:11pm
            Name: The Triangle Group
          E-Mail: thetriangle@yourwap.com
 Homepage URL: http://www.geocities.com/thetrianglegroup_uk
         Location: UK, US, Belgium, Australia
       Comments: We would also like to say thank you to the Animal Liberation Front website for posting a link
                   to our site so prominantly on yours. It has been a great help and we are receiving a number of
                   hits every day. You are helping us spread our message to even more people. Our site is still
                   under construction but we have already placed a note on it thanking you for your help.

                    Keep Fighting
                    The Triangle Group



Saturday 12/22/2001 8:05:19pm
            Name: The Triangle Group
          E-Mail: thetriangle@yourwap.com
 Homepage URL: http://www.geocities.com/thetrianglegroup_uk
         Location: UK, US, Belgium, Australia
       Comments: We disagree Cat...when a person eats a steak what reason are they doing it for? To make
                   money? No they are eating that piece of meat because of its taste...and therefore their pleasure
                   is more important to them than the life that was lost.ALF response: pleasure is a lot different
                   from the word "vanity" to which Cat took exception. Vanity doesn't seem to fit. We admit that a
                   lot of animal abuse is money derived but it all comes from one basic premis...that humans
                   believe that they are beter than all other life and this is not the case. Thanks for your reply.
                   Hope to hear from you soon.
                   The triangle Group..UK Section



Saturday 12/22/2001 2:54:33pm
            Name: The Cat
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
      Location:
     Comments: Not vanity Triangle, money. Animal abuse
                is all about money not vanity. You have got this wrong.



Saturday 12/22/2001 1:15:09pm
            Name: The Triangle Group
          E-Mail: thetriangle@yourwap.com
 Homepage URL: http://www.geocities.com/thetrianglegroup_uk
         Location: UK, US, Belgium, Australia
       Comments: We disagree with the last guestbook entry. As far as we are concerned there is only one reason
                   for violence and torture directed towards animals on this planet, and that is vanity. For too long
                   now western civilisation kills billions of animals every year for its own person greed and
                   satisfaction. As can be proven by every vegan in the world, it is easy to live without relying on
                   the slavery of animals. Animal cruelty continues to exist because humanity does not want to
                   change and most people think they are better than all other life on this planet. The Bible says
                   that animal life was placed on this planet to serve humanity and society has hidden behind this
                   book for too long.
                   Thanks to groups like the ALF and to websites like this one these attitudes are changing....and
                   one day, we know that this is a battle we will win.
                   Keep Fighting
                   The Triangle Group..UK Section



Thursday 12/20/2001 6:35:20pm
           Name: A.M. Goto
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL: http://www.angelfire.com/ca7/amgoto
        Location: San Francisco
      Comments: Great site! I believe that all racial and ethnic hatred throughout the world have a common
                  underlying cause. I have created a site in which I explain what that cause is. If you believe in
                  evolution, you may find it interesting. Please check it out. Thanks.ALF response: I only
                  scanned the article but it sounds like a justification to be a bigot. It seems to say that since we
                  are biologically and/or culturally different we shouldn't be forced to work together. It seems to
                  ignore the fact that if you put any three bigots together, two of them will find a reason to dislike
                  the third (and it may be a reason you haven't thought of before).



Thursday 12/20/2001 5:41:53pm
           Name: Helen
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location: Northern Ireland
      Comments: When I'm out shopping I've often found it difficult to find non-leather shoes and I know it's
                  even harder for men.
                  Check out this website www.ethicalwares.com.I got some lovely new boots there and they do a
                  fairly wide range.
                  P.S-I don't work for them!
       Comments:




                    Happy Christmas & a Merry New Year!



Thursday 12/20/2001 9:08:22am
           Name: The Triangle Group
          E-Mail: thetriangle@yourwap.com
 Homepage URL: http://www.geocities.com/thetrianglegroup_uk
        Location: UK, US, Belgium, Australia
      Comments: Nice to see there is some agreement between the people involved in the movement for once.
                  The one thing that we all agree about is the fact that human tyranny over animals has to
                  end...and it is a worthy struggle even though we fear that we will never get to see this happen in
                  our lifetimes. However if this process is ever to be sped up then all of these singular groups will
                  have to work together as one or we will never be sucessful. What is the point in a single ALF or
                  Triangle member smashing the window of a butcher's shop...this will prove nothing. If you
                  want to hurt the butcher then you must attack the company that supplies his meat....or instead of
                  damaging the milk depot in your area....why not go for the head department and see if you can
                  bring the company down. These people do not understand and do not respect the damage
                  caused to the window of the leather shop...the only way to stop these people is to bring down
                  the whole organisation from the inside, using modern monitary techniques etc. as hurting the
                  butcher does not hurt the main company who is the initial killer. You must cut off the head
                  instead instead of the hands to have an effect.
                  The Triangle group...UK Section



Wednesday 12/19/2001 6:58:53pm
          Name: The Cat
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: Totally agree with the comments of the Triangle. I have with great optimism supported many
                 groups but the problem is always the same, everyone has their own agenda, this leads to
                 infighting disillusion and fragmentation. My particular irritation is the serial careerist who is
                 paid by so called rights or welfare groups. No one wants to lose their salary, their mortgage and
                 their bank balance. Therefore the target is never successfully addressed for obvious reasons. I
                 could go on endlessly about this but it is boring, I prefer that my energies are positive. Nice to
                 see you Triangle. Keep posting.



Wednesday 12/19/2001 12:45:29am
          Name: The Triangle Group
         E-Mail: thetriangle@yourwap.com
 Homepage URL: http://www.geocities.com/thetrianglegroup_uk
       Location: UK, US, Belgium, Australia
       Comments: Helen and Cat, this is the problem. People within the movement are always fighting amongst
                 themselves...trying to make their opinion be the prevelant one. This has to change for there to
                 be a real difference in the quality of animal life on this planet. It is time that all of the groups
                 came together in one voice...whether you are ALF, Animal Militia, Straight Edge or The
                 Triangle...one voice is needed.Ten groups shouting at each other is not as effective as 100 000
                 people shouting as once for the common good. We should all think about that.




Tuesday 12/18/2001 11:10:38pm
           Name: Helen
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location: Northern Ireland
      Comments: Hi Cat
                  I'm not giving up at all but I do think the world is screwed up.


Tuesday 12/18/2001 9:18:04pm
           Name: The Cat
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: Hi Helen, you are right but it is because of people like you that the world will change. Many
                  years ago my life was changed by a photograph of a cat tortured by "scientists", I will never
                  give up the fight to liberate animals from this fraudulent research and other forms of abuse and
                  torture. Don't give up, we will win, even though at times it seems that this is an unwinable fight.
                  The truth always wins.



Tuesday 12/18/2001 8:48:00pm
           Name: Helen
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location: Northern Ireland
      Comments: There is so much animal abuse in the world it is sickening.The world is totally screwed up!

                    ALF response: You are correct, of course. But mankind is progressing in a direction of which
                    we may be proud. Millions of years ago earth didn’t provide room and board for everyone in all
                    climates so evolution dictated that the survivors were not necessarily the kindest, most
                    compassionate of the beings. Thousands of years ago the strongest ruled by force and took what
                    they wanted. There was little respect for other peoples, women, or any being weaker. Hundreds
                    of years ago man began to extend his compassion to women and other races. In the last ten
                    years, thousands of laws worldwide have been passed to prohibit unnecessary suffering of
                    animals in labs, factory farms, and private owner abuse. Progress is slow and frustrating. Don’t
                    obsess on day-to-day battles. We’re winning the war.
Tuesday 12/18/2001 8:29:21pm
           Name: Diane Diamond Thompson
          E-Mail: ddiamondt@home.com
 Homepage URL:
        Location: Sarasota, Florida
      Comments: I am an officer and board member of Sarasota In Defense of Animals. First met some of you at



Tuesday 12/18/2001 7:15:58pm
           Name: Helen
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location: Northern Ireland
      Comments: This Summer an animals rights album was released in the UK.Sadly all the major record shops
                  1.Echobelly-Digit
                  2.Blur-Tender
                  3.Jamiroquai-Deeper Underground
                  4 The Smiths-Meat is Murder
                  5.Manic Street Preachers-Of walking abortion
                  6The Pretenders-I'll stand by you
                  7-Nirvana-Something in the way
                  8 Kenickie-Come out 2nite
                  9Brand New Heavies-Midnight at the Oasis
                  10Garbage-Androgyny
                  11 Radiohead-Knives Out
                  12 Stereophonics-Have a nice day.
                  Anyone else got any suggestions?



Tuesday 12/18/2001 6:06:12pm
           Name: The Cat
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: Hey I've found another supporter. Mahatma Ghandi when questioned about the civilised
                  western culture replied that it would be a good idea. Other comments are that "non violence is
                  the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier that the mightiest weapon of
                  destruction devised by the ingenuity of man".

                    I save the best for last, "Civilisation is judged by it's treatment of it's most vulnerable".

                    Seems that we are not civilised until we respect and care about our animal population. Rock on
                    Mahatma and Immanuel.


Monday 12/17/2001 11:19:07pm
          Name: Helen
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location: Northern Ireland
       Comments: This happened at Belfast Zoo around the start of this year.
                 Someone broke into the Zoo and headed towards the penguins.They then beat several penguins
                 with iron bars before throwing one of the penguins into the lions den.
                 This is an extremely sickening case of animal abuse but it must also be said that if it wasn't for
                 zoos this incident would never have happened as lions and penguins would never have come
                 across each other in their natural habitats.
                 Imagine what it must feel like to be torn from your natural home and thrown behind bars-hour
                 after hour,year after year.
                 It is time to close all zoos and return animals to their natural habitats.



Monday 12/17/2001 10:23:20pm
          Name: The Triangle Group
         E-Mail: thetriangle@yourwap.com
 Homepage URL: http://www.geocities.com/thetrianglegroup_uk
       Location: UK, US, Belgium, Australia
     Comments: Congratulations on an excellent site. keep fighting and keep up the good work. Just for your
                 reference, we have posted a link to your site on our holding site to help you spread your
                 message to a broader area.
                 The TriangleALF response: Nice website, yourself. Very professional.



Monday 12/17/2001 7:28:45pm
          Name: The Cat
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: I agree with Helen. Prior to the main election some years ago when Labour won a landslide
                 victory, the Labour party produced a manifesto on animal welfare, called "New Life for
                 Animals" and yes they received votes and money. What happened, more animals are losing
                 their lives in laboratories, animal abusers are protected by law, whilst those who appose animal
                 abuse are imprisoned and hunting continues with the approval of government. The press and
                 government back the monied and the industries that profit from animal abuse, but all
                 governments are the same, they promise the electorate and break their promises. This is why
                 direct action is so necessary, to shame and expose those who continue this disgusting abuse of
                 vulnerable creatures who have no voice for profit and pleasure.




Monday 12/17/2001 6:58:44pm
          Name: Helen
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location: Northern Ireland
     Comments: Hi all,
       Comments:
                    Although I've never voted Labour, as they don't run for election in Ulster,Im sure many animal
                    liberationists voted for them in the hope they would keep their promises.They betrayed us in
                    the last term of government by not banning hunting.If they fail to ban it again then please show
                    your disgust by not voting Labour.Never trust a politician as they're all liars!




Monday 12/17/2001 6:24:20pm
          Name: The Cat
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: Interesting stuff on the Immanuel Kant site. He holds the view that humans have an indirect
                 duty to animals, not because of the feelings of animals and he recognises that they have
                 feelings. He says that if humans do not respect animals, there would be a direct effect on us and
                 our behaviour towards each other.

                    "He who is cruel to animals becomes hard also in his dealings with men, we can judge the heart
                    of a man by his treatment of animals".

                    Do you think he would have been an ALF supporter?


Monday 12/17/2001 5:59:33pm
          Name: The Cat
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: The hunting of foxes with hounds has shamefully started yet again in this country. Huntsmen
                 this morning were eagerly anticipating their "traditional sport". This country wants a complete
                 ban on this uncivilised, barbaric tradition. The Government although promised this, is now
                 sitting on the fence, mostly because wealthy landowners want this "sport" to continue, they
                 even encourage their children to follow in their footsteps. If you have the time, please register
                 your disgust with the UK Government, Elliot Morley to be precise. There are some traditions
                 that should stay in the past, slavery, no votes for women and fox, stag, hare, otter hunting with
                 hounds for the pleasure of humans.




Monday 12/17/2001 4:27:33am
          Name: anti-speciesist
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: yes that @#%$! benetton @#%$! shop. recently I passed one of these benetoncrapshops and it
                 all the whole window crammed full with dead animal skin clothes.

                    all love to all of you as usual xxx etc
Sunday 12/16/2001 5:49:02pm
           Name: BD
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments:

                   Benetton contact information:

                   Press Information: press@benetton.it
                   Financial Information: invrel@benetton.it
                   Commercial Information: commerciale@benetton.it
                   Commercial Info USA: tscotto@benettonusa.com



Sunday 12/16/2001 5:00:12pm
           Name: Helen
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location: Northern Ireland
      Comments: Bennetton shops in the UK have started to sell rabbit fur collars.Please protest to Bennetton
                  managers and boycott Bennetton until it stops selling fur.



Sunday 12/16/2001 2:13:53pm
           Name: Helen
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location: Northern Ireland
      Comments: Check out www.shac.net-There's some class pictures of beagle puppies rescued from
                  HLS.Heartwarming indeed.Excellent work ALF!


Saturday 12/15/2001 7:32:17am
            Name: Andrea Steiner
          E-Mail: a.steiner.i-one.at
 Homepage URL: http://meineseite.i-one.at/animal-farm
         Location: Austria
       Comments: Greetings from Austria(Vienna), Andrea and all her animals.



Friday 12/14/2001 7:25:54pm
            Name: The Cat
           E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: I agree with Drew, I too have friends who have been incarcerated because of their views and
                 subsequent actions. The established order is frightened of the truth and hence attempts to
                 silence those who speak out and expose the truth about the vile and barbaric procedures carried
                 out on captive animals in the name of science. One of the last pictures taken undercover in
                 these hell holes was that of a dead primate in a bin marked "clinical waste". Any decent human
                 being would be disgusted, no wonder direct action is needed. I say to people like Neil Bartlett,
                 I fully support your bravery and agree that he like many others should never have been interred.
                 However, we will win. The establishment doesn't ignore us any more neither do they laugh at
                 us, instead now they try to frighten us with threats of prison. Who are the criminals, those who
                 violently take life or those who take action against buildings and name and shame those who
                 participate in any way for their taking of lives for pleasure or profit.




Friday 12/14/2001 1:35:44am
            Name: J J Loske
           E-Mail: jloske4885@aol.com
 Homepage URL:
         Location: Phoenix Az
       Comments: Great site



Thursday 12/13/2001 7:34:46pm
           Name: Francisco
          E-Mail: Fran1@mami69.com.ar
 Homepage URL:
        Location: Argentina
      Comments: i´m a vegan straight edge from buenos aires, argentina and i believe that this site is the best way
                  ti realize that animal are just like us and that they deserve our respect .
                  and by people like you and me we are going to make a better future for them.
                  well...i hope we could keep in touch...bye



Thursday 12/13/2001 3:00:17pm
           Name: DREW
          E-Mail: uncledrewvis@yahoo.co.uk
 Homepage URL: http://www.geocities.com/neil_bartlett_campaign
        Location: UK
      Comments: THIS IS FOR ANYONE IN THE UK OR THAT HAS CONTACTS IN THE UK, PLEASE
                  PLEASE COPY THIS ENTRY AND EMAIL IT TO AS MANY PEOPLE AS YOU CAN!

                    Hi you may be aware of an animal libber called NEIL BARTLETT (my best friend)who is in
                    lewes prison east sussex.
                    if you do GREAT! if not, you will now!
                    I need youre help desperately and so does Neil!
                    bad news im afraid -
                    yesterday (thursday 12th) without warning to him or his solicitor, at 6.30 in the morning Neil
                    was woken up and told he was appearing in court. - (original trial date was set for 20th
                    december, next week, and we'd all planned to show up and support him as we have been since
                    august) -
                    Later in the day he was convicted. branded by the judge as being
                    " an evil menace to society " (which in my opinion is even funnier than the fact he was arrested
                    in the first place. how can you call someone you dont even know that?!
                    anyway, I desperately need you to tell as many other animal lib contacts and other organisations
                    and people that you know of this disgusting practice of so called "justice" and unfair treatment,
                    and try and persuade them to either demonstrate/riot against the courts/judge/or whoever or do
                    whatever they can to show we wont let the system screw people over anymore than it does
                    already.
                    ive spoken with a work colleague today who is serving time in ford prison and has done about
                    14 years for armed robbery and he has confirmed (what was blatantly obvious in my opinion)
                    that they legally cant just drag you into court without warning to you or your solicitor, and he
                    says neils solicitor will be able to have a field day because of the way theyve acted.

                    neils solicitor has shot down here from london, and isnt very happy, and as you can imagine,
                    neil is distraught, and is already getting harsher treatment in prison now because of the
                    conviction.
                    im sick of good people getting treated like @#%$! and toyed with. im not standing for it and i
                    need yours and everyones help to get some action started!
                    pleeeeeease HELP! i cant do it alone!
                    thanks!
                    DREW - uncledrewvis@yahoo.co.uk

                    i set up this site when neil was arrested in august - www.geocities.com/neil_bartlett_campaign
                    ill be updating it as u read this! PLEASE, HELP NOW!


                    PLEASE KEEP COPYING AND PASTING THIS ENTRY INTO THE GUESTBOOK SO
                    THAT IT IS AVAILABLE FOR PEOPLE TO READ FOR A FEW DAYS!!!! THANKS!!!


Wednesday 12/12/2001 9:57:07pm
          Name: The Cat
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: Just picked up on the threaded discussion forum the old smokescreen that child abusers are
                 given lesser sentences than animal abusers. This in fact is not the case, animal abusers are
                 forgiven, case in point the women who microwaved her cat by mistake, the man who shredded
                 puppies etc. People are forgiven for these crimes because their victims are animals. In the UK
                 the Victoria Climbia case is continuing, this child died because of mistakes by humans and is
                 being rightly investigated by the authorities. What authority regulates the violent death of an
                 animal. Animals are regarded as nothing by our society, to be abused regularly and routinely
                 because they are seen by humans as nothing. This must change, if bureaucratic means can not
                 bring about this change, then direct action is the only way.
Wednesday 12/12/2001 7:10:46pm
          Name: Susan
         E-Mail: susan1@nme.com
 Homepage URL:
       Location: UK
     Comments: I was thrilled to hear of your rescue of ferrets from Marshall Farms. However, can you please
                 confirm what has happened to those ferrets now as several people I know are concerned they
                 may have been released into the wild. I'm sure you will know that ferrets can't survive in the
                 wild and just wanted to put our minds at rest.

                    Thanks,
                    Susan



Wednesday 12/12/2001 3:59:35am
          Name: Brian
         E-Mail: spazz@uswest.net
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: I just wanted to congratulate the cell in upstate NY on a job well done. Their heroism saved the
                 lives of those 40 animals so that none of them will face the syringe and knife for a pointless
                 cause. So congrats and stay true. Cheers



Tuesday 12/11/2001 8:19:49pm
           Name: The Cat
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: Cheers ALF responder. I don't want any thing posted in my name by people who want to
                  infiltrate the site. Yours for animals and humans.



Tuesday 12/11/2001 7:40:31pm
           Name: Justin Cowgill
          E-Mail: justin@pravda.ru
 Homepage URL:
        Location: Russia
      Comments: Greetings,
                  Can you possibly give the name of a person who might like to write an article about animal-
                  rights issues for Pravda.ru? We are a Russian newspaper that carries articles in Russian and
                  English.
                  With regards, JustinALF response: Hopefully an ALF advocate from Russia will contact you.



Tuesday 12/11/2001 6:39:39pm
           Name: Alysse
          E-Mail: Luv_The_Horse@hotmail.com
 Homepage URL:
      Location:
     Comments: This is a neat site. It has lots of helpful and handy information, Thanks



Tuesday 12/11/2001 6:25:02pm
           Name: dunlop
          E-Mail: prsolt@drl-ent.com
 Homepage URL:
        Location: chicago
      Comments:



Tuesday 12/11/2001 12:54:00am
           Name: The Cat
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: So now we have two cats, who is the second cat I wonder?ALF response: We have a copy-cat
                  who has been on the board for a month. I will continue to delete his posts, as they are boring.




Tuesday 12/11/2001 3:08:24am
           Name: Julie
          E-Mail: Nature5@aol.com
 Homepage URL:
        Location: Rochester, NY
      Comments: Thank goodness for your organization - animals need all the help they can get. I've been
                  watching the news, about the ALF's "theft" of 40 animals used in research, how can they act
                  like it's wrong when the real criminals are the people running the laboratories? Please don't ever
                  give up defending animal rights. Thank you.



Monday 12/10/2001 10:18:41pm
          Name: antispeciesist
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: love to everyone as usual xxxx!!!!!


Monday 12/10/2001 12:41:33am
          Name: The Cat
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
       Comments: To the moron who alleges to be involved in animal testing and I expect he/she/it is. A big thank
                 you from humanity for providing us with the "safe" drugs that are killing human beings not to
                 mention the unnecessary barbaric cruelty involved in the "testing" proceedures. I guess your
                 employer is making a real profit from torturing and killing animals and humans. If you don't
                 understand any of these words, use a dictionary.



Monday 12/10/2001 12:01:49am
          Name: BD
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: Must be all the Big Macs it's eating.



Sunday 12/09/2001 11:10:59pm
           Name: BIG MAC
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location: BURNHOUSE
      Comments: WHY DONT YOU @#%$! @#%$! JUST GO TO YOUR LOCAL BUTCHER AND ASK
                  FOR A LOVELY BIG JUICY SIRLOIN STEAK,FRY IT UP MEDIUM RARE AND TUCK
                  IN.AFTERALL THATS WHAT ANIMALS ARE FOR, EATING AND TESTING.PS. I
                  CRACKED TWO RATS OVER THE HEAD YESTERDAY IN MY WORK,YOU WANT TO
                  SEE THERE BRAINS SPILL OVER THE GROUND.ALF response: Please notice that the
                  typical animal abuser is not very educated. Pop quiz: How many grammatical mistakes did
                  he/she make in a few sentences?



Sunday 12/09/2001 2:49:20pm
           Name: The Cat
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: "There are in fact only two categories of doctors and scientists who are not opposed to
                  vivisection: those who don't know enough about it, and those who make money from it."
                  Dr.Werner Hartinger. Who would have believed that animal abuse is all about research
                  budgets, personal profit and pleasure?



Saturday 12/08/2001 4:31:48am
            Name: Kathleen Schormann
          E-Mail: Anamules@aol.com
 Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Keep up the fight!! Someday everyone will understand that animals have just as much right to
                   live as we do.
Friday 12/07/2001 11:11:25pm
            Name: Lew
           E-Mail: Lew4nne@aol.com
 Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Hi all
                   Thanks to this great web site I have found a wonderful person to chat with. Thankyou. It's so
                   hard to find genuine animal lovers to talk to. Great work ALF xxx



Friday 12/07/2001 9:51:36pm
            Name: Fiorella Flesia
           E-Mail: flesia.fiorella@libero.it
 Homepage URL: http://maurizio@imolossideltibet.com
         Location: Italy
       Comments: I heard about some action of ALF.I visited the web site to know more



Friday 12/07/2001 11:08:19am
            Name: lew
           E-Mail: Lew4nne@aol.com
 Homepage URL:
         Location: Norfolk
       Comments: Hi all, Is there anyone living in the norwich area (england) who could perhaps help me or give
                   me some advice on how to free a gaurd dog which is being badly treated, Iv'e told the RSPCA
                   about it, but guess what? they can't do anything!! what are they for then? I ask myself,anyway if
                   there is someone out there who could help me, please send me an e-mail. Thankyou. Love to
                   you all



Friday 12/07/2001 1:38:00am
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments:

                    Hi Cat:

                    I lost your email addy, please email me.



Friday 12/07/2001 0:27:29am
            Name: The Cat
           E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Please remember the people who have been incarcerated in prison because of their strong
                 beliefs that animals have a right to live out their lives in peace and harmony with their
                 environment. Please write letters of support it gives a better quality of life if they know if folk
                 are thinking of them. These people are freedom fighters not the thugs that they are portrayed by
                 the press and government.


Thursday 12/06/2001 2:44:10am
           Name: anti-speciesist
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location: regular vacuum
      Comments: hello to all. hope everyone is as ok as possible. lot's of love. etc....



Tuesday 12/04/2001 10:54:38pm
           Name: The Cat
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: Hi Ana,

                    Good to hear from Portugal. I visit regularly for the last 12 years. The people I talk to are very
                    sympathic, however bull fighting is televised for the "enjoyment" of those who watch. Please
                    encourage the Portuguse government to stop this shameful form of "entertainment". Grateful
                    thanks if you are able to stop this "sport".



Tuesday 12/04/2001 8:29:19pm
           Name: Ana Silva
          E-Mail: anasi@clix.pt
 Homepage URL:
        Location: portugal
      Comments: great work! congratulations !



Tuesday 12/04/2001 6:53:29am
           Name: The Cat
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: Interesting quote from the teachings of Immanuel Kant "He who is cruel to animals becomes
                  hard also in his dealings with men. We can judge the heart of man by his treatment of animals."
                  Says it all don't you think?



Monday 12/03/2001 7:01:48pm
          Name: The Cat
        E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
      Location:
     Comments: Just seen the moronic post of the "scumbag" who posted on 2nd Dec. Not really worth any sort
                of intelligent debate because clearly, you just ain't intelligent. Just for your education and I'll
                keep it short, get informed.


Monday 12/03/2001 6:00:38pm
          Name: The Cat
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: Hi all, good to be back, been on hols to The Netherlands. Interesting to see that the Dutch
                 appear to be rejecting fur and fur trim. Didn't see much around during my stay. Check out a
                 good site www.nonvivisezione.org an Italian site with English text.



Monday 12/03/2001 0:53:04am
          Name: BD
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments:
                 Hi XerXmy:

                    Humans are the cruelest of all animals. The stories I read about is really what keeps me going
                    in what I do. Unfortunately, there will always be users/abusers to deal with. I'm glad you're
                    fighting for those who cannot fight for themselves. Keep up the good work and know you're
                    doing the right thing.
                    Peace,
                    BD



Monday 12/03/2001 0:06:06am
          Name: XerXmy
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location: philly
       Comments: So I just watched a few videos on this site. I really have to try adn hold back tears, I do not
                 understand in anyway how someone can just senselessly sit there and hurt/kill an animal. I
                 mean watching the clip with the young boy hitting the calf makes me sick, I mean that childs
                 upbringing has to be horrible. It astounds me to think that people can be so callous. I mean I
                 realize that they are, but it just never ceases to amaze me that people suffer from lack of
                 intelligence and compassion, maybe this post makes no sense, seeing as I am trying to write the
                 million thoughts in my head. I have seen a 1001 videos and investigations and I never grow less
                 sympathetic towards them. It really makes me ashamed to be part of the human race, but at the
                 same time to knwo there are other people out there fighting for the same thing as me gives me
                 hope and enough to keep doing and fighting what I do everyday. Thanks for listening whoever
                 chooses to read this. - xoxo- XerXmy




Sunday 12/02/2001 2:02:35pm
           Name: karen g
          E-Mail: hanoirox9@hotmail.com
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: god bless the alf/// i am 33 years old and was forced by my family to eat meat as a young child
                  even though i instinctively knew it was bad //// ironically today my parents feel bad for their
                  dietary naziism and frequently eat vegetarian although they still consume meat //im from north
                  carolina where i still live carolina biological supply is an evil company that in the late 70s and
                  probably still now would have their minions drive aroung suburban neighborhoods looking for
                  "stray dogs and cats" for dissection whereupon they would snatch these animals ... i had at least
                  two friends who lost cats and am positive that carolina bio supp.snatched at least one /that
                  company should be eliminated / what i would really like to see is the whole thing blown sky
                  high but im probably not supposed to say that with all this "new security" i might get branded a
                  terrorist....this world has become an orwellian nightmare with big brother watching .... violence
                  in general especially terrorism...disregard for the sanctity of life in any form ...greedy
                  corporations poisoning our world ... by the way in general im against zoos unless they protect a
                  species and keep them from being hunted and the animal is not caged/// our north carolina zoo



Sunday 12/02/2001 1:18:46pm
           Name: BD
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: @#%$! OFF SCUMBAGS WRITES:
       Comments:

                    ANIMALS ARE FOR EATING AND CARRYING OUT EXPERIMENTS,I LOVE TO GET
                    MY TEETH STUCK INTO A NICE JUICY STEAK,@#%$! YOUR IDEAOLOGY,IF
                    PUMPING A RAT FULL OF DRUGS SAVES A HUMAN LIFE IM ALL FOR IT,YOUR
                    TATICS ARE FULL OF HYPOCROSY,ITS NOT ALRIGHT TO USE ANIMALS FOR OUR
                    GAIN BUT ITS ALRIGHT TO MAIM AND KILL HUMANS AND DESTROY
                    PROPERTY,WILL YOU EVER SUCCEDE IN YOUR AIMS? NEVER, THE VAST
                    MAJORITY OF PEOPLE DETEST YOU. I WILL BE EATING MEAT TODAY AND
                    TOMMORO AND FOREVER. YOU ARE NOTHING BUT FACISTS TRYING TO IMPOSE
                    YOUR THINKING ONTO OTHERS,IF I EVER COME ACROSS YOUR ACTIVITIES YOU
                    WILL PAY FOR YOUR ACTIONS,DIE YOU VERMIN.

                    BD Responds:

                    Your statement "animals are for eating and carrying out experiments" is an OPINION and an
                    INGNORANT one at that. See, I can use caps too. BTW, I'm sure you do get your teeth
                    STUCK in the steak you eat, because YOUR teeth were not designed to eat flesh. Maim and
                    kill humans? When? I've never heard of this. If the property that is used to maim and kill
                    nonhumans is destroyed, I won't shed a tear over it. Oh yeah, the VAST MAJORITY of people
                    don't know what the ALF is. It's mostly pro-use/abuse folks who are so hot-tempered with the
                    ALF. Boo hoo, don't really care what those folks think. Jeesh, this guy wants AR people to die.
                    What a violent way of thinking. Must be all that steak he's getting his teeth stuck in.



Sunday 12/02/2001 12:48:32am
           Name: BD
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments:
                  To SPEAK:

                    Thanks for linking to the article. I find it horribly ironic that folks gorge themselves on flesh
                    (an unnatural diet for humans) and then bring diseases such as heart disease and cancer on
                    themselves by doing so, and THEN experiment on other animals to (hopelessly) find cures for
                    those diseases which could have been prevented in the first place. When will people learn?
                    Thanks for posting!



Sunday 12/02/2001 12:37:44am
           Name: XereXy
          E-Mail: thefallencollective@hotmail.com
 Homepage URL: http://www.geocities.com/xthe_fallenx
        Location: philadelphia
      Comments: I want to start this off on a good note. I want to express my thanks to the people doing this site,
                  for putting up something with alot of information and alot of insight for people who don't know
                  alot about AR. I myself have been vegan for about 5 years, vegetarian for 7. I know that as time
                  passes it would be virtually improbable to be able to keep up with everything going on in the
                  AR community, but with help from websites like this, it keeps us informed and updated.
                  Basically I just wanted to say thank you! xoxo
Sunday 12/02/2001 12:24:58am
           Name: @#%$! OFF SCUMBAGS
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: ANIMALS ARE FOR EATING AND CARRYING OUT EXPERIMENTS,I LOVE TO GET
                  MY TEETH STUCK INTO A NICE JUICY STEAK,@#%$! YOUR IDEAOLOGY,IF
                  PUMPING A RAT FULL OF DRUGS SAVES A HUMAN LIFE IM ALL FOR IT,YOUR
                  TATICS ARE FULL OF HYPOCROSY,ITS NOT ALRIGHT TO USE ANIMALS FOR OUR
                  GAIN BUT ITS ALRIGHT TO MAIM AND KILL HUMANS AND DESTROY
                  PROPERTY,WILL YOU EVER SUCCEDE IN YOUR AIMS? NEVER, THE VAST
                  MAJORITY OF PEOPLE DETEST YOU. I WILL BE EATING MEAT TODAY AND
                  TOMMORO AND FOREVER. YOU ARE NOTHING BUT FACISTS TRYING TO IMPOSE
                  YOUR THINKING ONTO OTHERS,IF I EVER COME ACROSS YOUR ACTIVITIES YOU
                  WILL PAY FOR YOUR ACTIONS,DIE YOU VERMIN.



Sunday 12/02/2001 4:31:13am
           Name: BD
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments:

                   Mark writes:

                   Once again BD I must expose that propaganda (a lessor offense I suppose than an outright
                   lie)about the mink releases. Only the animals who were recaptured survived.

                   BD responds: I'm STILL waiting for the proof you said you had, several weeks ago. I love how
                   you bring this up again when you know I'm away and can't respond. What? Didn't think I would
                   go back and read what I've missed? Well, anyway, it's good to be back.




Sunday 12/02/2001 4:08:13am
           Name: BD
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: Hello folks! I'm back. Looks like the board has been busy while I was away. It's late here, so
                  when I get some time, I'll read all posts more thoroughly. I see the guy posting as me has
                  stopped, good thing. Much animal abuse and neglect evident from where I was visiting. Had to
                  set a few people straight. Moving forward is the way to go.


Saturday 12/01/2001 11:08:42pm
            Name: Mark Novotny
        E-Mail: arkoshark@aol.com
 Homepage URL:
      Location:
     Comments: Great website!! Thankyou for all the useful information!! My road to vegetarianism began after
                eating at a Hare Krishna temple and reading some of their literature. This coming from a
                practicing Christian!! I began to see that you cannot live in harmony with the universe whether
                you are a Buddhist,Christian,Muslim and etc. To become close to our creator is to put away all
                vices and lusts of the flesh including the lust of appetite.To kill another living being because
                you enjoy the taste of its flesh is not only barbaric but very self centered.Your reasons not to
                eat meat can be increase with these statements found in the Holy Bible.Genesis chapter one
                verses 29-30.And God said ,Behold I have given you every herb bearing seed,which is upon the
                face of all the earth ,and every tree,in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed;to you it shall
                be for meat.30 And to every beast of the earth,and to every fowl of the air,and to every thing
                that creepeth upon the earth,wherein there is life,I have given every green herb for meat:and it
                was so.ISAIAH chapter 65 verse 25: The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,and the lion
                shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpents meat.They shall not hurt nor



Friday 11/30/2001 4:25:50am
            Name: Bob Dead
           E-Mail: Blasphemysquad@aol.com
 Homepage URL: http://www.dropdead.org/
         Location: Providence
       Comments: Much respect to all ALF members around the world...the site is brilliant...the fight is real...and
                   the time for animal liberation is NOW.



Thursday 11/29/2001 5:28:05pm
           Name: jealousy
          E-Mail: jealousbeth@yahoo.com
 Homepage URL:
        Location: floriduh
      Comments: if any ALF members in south florida, contact me, please? thanks alot. peace.



Thursday 11/29/2001 2:39:28am
           Name: anti-speciesist
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: hello speak! great you put the link to the article here!

                    It's a kind of article that helps shift the majorities attitude. That humans practice the worst
                    possible form of injustice is THE problem that people just like to avoid. It's deep rooted
                    speciesism based on plain self-interest.

                    Responsibility without unreasonable self-interest is something that so urgently needs to be
                    developed, called for, expected, and so on.
                   Thanks again!! Good to hear about it, etc...all love and greeting to all as usual and always....!!!




Wednesday 11/28/2001 8:05:29pm
          Name: Sandra
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location: Iowa
     Comments: Alf, one more thing. Is there any fellow Alf members here in Iowa that I can meet? Though I
                 support Peta, I feel you do a better job at making things happen. Thanks for your
                 leadership!ALF response: Folks may contact you if you include your email address...
Tuesday 11/27/2001 4:58:24am
           Name: SPEAK
          E-Mail: animal8@earthlink.net
 Homepage URL: http://www.tucsonweekly.com/tw/current/feat.html
        Location:
      Comments: The Tucson Weekly has done an in-depth article and pictures on animal rights/welfare, and the
                  issues that confront all of us who care deeply about animal suffering. It is a long article, but
                  very well worth the read. It profiles activists and discusses the issues that leaves one unable to
                  deny the horrors that befall animals. If only there weren't so much apathy among humans, these
                  atrocities could not stand the light of day. The article is even featured as the front page,
                  "Thanksgiving is Murder on Turkeys," it shouts.

                    The link is above.



Tuesday 11/27/2001 3:46:33am
           Name: mark
          E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: Mark,
                  Now that I have your attention: SANDRA was a made-up name by a bogus poster. No reason
                  to debate the behavior of an imaginary being (unless, of course, it is my imaginary pet dragon,
                  Mary).
                  --ALF responder



Monday 11/26/2001 11:18:46pm
          Name: mark
         E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: Once again BD I must expose that propaganda (a lessor offense I suppose than an outright
                 lie)about the mink releases. Only the animals who were recaptured survived.ALF responder:
                 We still feel as if the vast majority of hidden truth rests on the side of the animal factory
                 industry. Because most people have been brainwashed by meat industries, that is where the
                 education needs to be. Over the past two years, Viva! has secretly filmed inside British pig
                 farms.
                 Everywhere we pointed the camera we saw diseased, dead and dying animals.
                 Meningitis, enteritis, pneumonia, dysentery and wasting syndrome are a few
                 of the diseases that are spiralling out of control. Foot and mouth is just
                 one of the many.

                    In almost every enclosure were the products of brutal neglect and
                    indifference - broken legs, abscesses, ruptured stomachs, animals coughing
                    from pneumonia, others panting from meningitis, cuts and lacerations from
                    the perforated metal on which they have to live.
Monday 11/26/2001 10:41:23pm
          Name: Helen
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location: Northern Ireland
     Comments: I totally agree with you deleting the shite that came in from anti animal liberation people.I
                 posted a letter to Piss on Peta last night.Needless to say it didnt get printed!ALF response: I
                 don't delete intelligent dialog even if it's anti-ALF. People can say that my sister swims out to
                 sailors, and I'll leave it if it accompanies something interesting. All of the posts I have deleted
                 in the last week (false names with no return email addresses) have been from one single ISP
                 address.



Monday 11/26/2001 6:28:50pm
          Name: kathryn
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: Think ALF is great.
                 No animal should suffer.


Monday 11/26/2001 7:59:08am
          Name: Helen
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location: Northern Ireland
     Comments: SHAC is Stop Huntingdon Animal Cruelty.It campaiagns against Huntingdon Life



Monday 11/26/2001 2:40:34am
          Name: Jen
         E-Mail: JenJen0274@AOL.com
 Homepage URL:
       Location: St. Paul
     Comments: Helen,
                 What is SHAC?
                 Thanks.



Sunday 11/25/2001 8:30:04pm
           Name: Paula
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: An advertisement by the RSPCA has been banned from tv in the UK. The commercial is about
       Comments:

                    The broadcast advertising clearance centre found the advert in breach of rule 10 of the
                    independent televisions commissions advertising code: "no advetisement may be directed
                    towards any political end"

                    Baacs controller Tony Kingsbury said

                    "It is our opinion that the commercial is being used to influence public opinion". ALF
                    response: I heard the news. It's sad, and the logic is bad. Every advertisement is trying to
                    change your mind (usually to TAKE your money).



Sunday 11/25/2001 6:21:27pm
           Name: Helen
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location: Northern Ireland
      Comments: Hi Jen
                  You want to meet other activists.Id suggest joining an animal rights group such as PETA or
                  SHAC.They should be able to put you in contact with other animal rights people in your area.




Sunday 11/25/2001 5:46:49pm
           Name: Jen
          E-Mail: JenJen0274@AOL.com
 Homepage URL:
        Location: St. Paul, MN
      Comments: I've just happened upon this page for the first time. I'm pretty new to Animal Activism and am
                  having a hard time finding anyone in my area that is serious about it. Any suggestions?


                    I'll keep checking back. Send me an email if you'd like.


Sunday 11/25/2001 2:56:26am
           Name: Alyce
          E-Mail: alyce@extremezone.com
 Homepage URL:
        Location: Gold Canyon, AZ USA
      Comments:
                  Gosh I haven't been here for a long time to post anything. I do read about everything though. I

                    THIS IS THE POST I ANSWERED. HOW WOULD YOU ANSWER IT. THANKS...
Comments:




            "The ALF issued specific death threats at that time against four people associated with
            animal research should Horne die." ALF is threatening to kill people! They rank right
            up there with other terrorists. They destroy, harm, and kill. ALF blew up a McDonald`s
            in France killing an employee. BTW do you have any idea how many animals were
            killed as a result of ALF`s actions?"ALF response: The ALF credo (posted on many
            websites without modification) prohibits harm to any sentient being. In the USA, their
            FBI knows (and reports) that we have not ever taken a life. That is not an accident.
            Care is taken. Most missions don't involve any damage, and most go unreported.
            However, that does not mean that any fool can't hurt someone and say they are ALF.
            But it is no more relevant than Osama bin saying he is Muslim, or a rapist saying he is
            a member of the labor party. Only fools argue that a group is responsible for individual
            actions unless the group condones those actions. Click here for article showing how
            vandals claim to be ALF to switch blame: ALF or Not?

            Article on FBI take on ALF: FBI files on ALFDisobedience vs. terror

            Utah's most visible animal rights activists -- those protesting fur shops and carrying placards
            denouncing rodeos and zoos -- distance themselves from those who burn buildings, destroy
            businesses and attack research facilities.

            Sean Diener, director of the Utah Animal Rights Coalition (UARC), says there is no evidence
            linking any member of his group to terrorist acts. And he maintains there is no connection
            whatsoever between UARC and the ALF.

            "We have no activists in our organization that have been or are ALF activists," Diener said. "It
            is very easy to look at a high-profile group like ours and say we are responsible. But there is no
            evidence of that."

            Utah activists believe they are being unfairly targeted for legally speaking out on a social issue,

            Are they guilty of civil disobedience for protesting perceived cruelty to animals? Absolutely,
            Diener says.

            But civil disobedience engaged in by groups like UARC and People for the Ethical Treatment
            of Animals (PETA) is a far cry from terrorism.

            "To say that simple actions of free expression and speech can be related to tragedies such as
            these is a mockery and a deliberate distortion of the facts," according to Crystal Hammer, a
            fellow animal rights activist and Weber State University student.

            Diener insisted UARC's official policy is one of nonviolence toward animals, people and
            property. It is a mantra Diener preaches to all who will listen. But he also admits some UARC
            members may have different beliefs and attitudes.

            Hammer, for one, insists that animals are not the private property of any human, and therefore
            liberating them can-not be viewed as damaging someone's private property.

            That concept is a fundamental premise of the ALF, which over 25 years of actions against
            property claims it has never injured anyone. That, says Sabrina, is not "random chance or good
            luck but comprehensive preparation, research and surveillance on the part of ALF cells."
                     Sabrina also insists that property destruction is not violent because property is not alive.
                     "When you set fire to a fur shop, it does not cry out in anguish," she said. "But when you skin a
                     stunned mink while she is still alive, she screams and writhes in pain. That is real terrorism."


                     Is it illegal? Yes, she said, but only because current laws are immoral.



Sunday 11/25/2001 0:01:30am
           Name: anti-speciesist
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: Hello all. I just wanted to pop in with some greetings & love. I'm following the discussion,
                  have nothing to say at the moment though.ALF response: Thanks. We needed that.




Saturday 11/24/2001 4:23:46pm
            Name: Zac
          E-Mail: Zacs_house@hotmail.com
 Homepage URL:
         Location: UK
       Comments: Anti-ALF….

                     You obviously have a very low IQ, so I think I wont even bother to reply to your ridiculous

                     Zac.



Saturday 11/24/2001 3:47:07pm
            Name: Helen
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
         Location: Northern Ireland
       Comments: To the person who says animals are part of the food chain-Would you eat a live cow?



Saturday 11/24/2001 2:47:56pm
            Name: Helen
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
         Location: Northern Ireland
       Comments: Farmers regard it as their right to shoot rabbits as they eat crops on "their land".To me
                   although the farmers pay the rent and all the bills,the rabbits have more of a claim to the
                   land.After all its their natural habitat and they've been their for longer.Its time to ban all
                   hunting.
Saturday 11/24/2001 1:53:13pm
            Name: Zac
          E-Mail: zacs_house@hotmail.com
 Homepage URL:
         Location: Durham, England
       Comments: The animal rights movement is a complex issue and it takes many different shapes and forms.
                   Some people work from the inside and partake in undercover investigations, some make a
                   visual protest with banners and verbalisation and some people take direct action, through
                   vandalism and liberation. And depending on which side of the fence that you are on, this is
                   either right or wrong (which is life I suppose). The fact is, that they are all acceptable forms of
                   behaviour depending on who you are and how strong you feel about the issue.


                    I myself am a strong believer in direct action, either through vandalism or through liberation,
                    as the action of talking over the issues normally achieves very little. There is so much money
                    involved in vivisection for example that telling the company that what it is doing is wrong will
                    have no effect what so ever. Take Huntington Life Sciences for example, if you look through
                    their list of shareholders and the amount of shares that some of the larger companies hold you
                    will realise that animal cruelty generates BIG money. But of course this is all okay we are told
                    because the painful deaths these animals endure are benefiting us.


                    Most people turn a blind eye to all the cruelty because they don't want to know, they don't want
                    to have to deal with the images that will stick in their minds. They eat meat because they
                    haven’t seen how it comes to be on their plate. If most people could see the process from a live
                    cow being brought into the narrow holding cage where it is *"stunned" with the captive bolt
                    gun, shackled around the leg and then stuck to it ending up on their plates, most people would
                    turn vegetarian or vegan.

                    *The purpose of the captive bolt gun is to render the animal impervious to pain, or at least that
                    is the theory. There was an investigation carried out by the author Gail A. Eisnitz who found
                    that a very high percentage of the animals are improperly stunned and are still alive through the
                    process of being stuck and even skinned. A lot of the evidence she gathered was from the
                    slaughterhose employees themselves. The book is difficult to read but offers an insight into the
                    often hidden world of the slaughterhouse. The title of the book is "Slaughterhouse", by Gail A.
                    Eisnitz and is published by Prometheus Books (ISBN 1-57392-166-1)


                    If you feel strongly about animal rights, then do something, even if it's just spending a few
                    minutes writing an e-mail. That is better than doing nothing. Everything helps, and the more
                    people that realise this the better thing will become.



Friday 11/23/2001 11:25:28pm
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments:
                   I have a feeling the other Helen will start being deleted if the nonsense continues.
       Comments:


                    Yes, SHAC is a great website!



Friday 11/23/2001 11:16:08pm
            Name: Helen
           E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
         Location: Northern Ireland
       Comments: I must say im starting to find the other Helen funny!Id like to also suggest another great animal



Friday 11/23/2001 10:14:23pm
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments:

                    Hi Helen,

                    I understand what you mean. It's hard to feel sympathy for those who cause so much pain and
                    suffering.

                    I think the person using your identity is doing it on purpose. He/she is trying to make some
                    kind of perverted point. I wish this individual would grow up. If they have something to say,
                    they should say it without using someone else's name. Very childish. Have a good weekend,
                    Helen.

                    Peace,
                    BD



Friday 11/23/2001 9:37:53pm
            Name: Helen
           E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
         Location: Northern Ireland
       Comments: I'm a peaceful campaigner who campaigns within the law but I do find it hard to feel sympathy
                   if something nasty happens to a fur farmer and I think alot of people feel that way too.P.S
                   Could the person using the same name as me please use a different one -unless you just happen
                   to have the same name as me.


Friday 11/23/2001 8:51:15pm
            Name: Kathy
           E-Mail: kathym@zoominternet.net
 Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: My story is very sad, yet true. My husband, son and I own a 5th generation Dairy Farm. Last
                 June, 3 individuals came onto our property and beat and slashed our cows. Thank goodness we
                 didn't lose any cows and physically they have healed. Mentally is a different story. These
                 beautiful Holstein cows that we have raised and worked with since birth are afraid of us. They
                 don't have that trusting look in their eyes anymore. The welts and slash marks that they had are
                 forever etched in my mind.

                   The 3 perpetrators have been arrested and are awaiting trial. The State is trying these young (
                   18 and 19 years old ) men and they have been charged with Felony Vandalism and
                   Trespassing. I'm not sure if Animal Cruelty charges will be filed. I just have a terrible feeling
                   that they will be set free and not have to serve any jail time for what they did. The only
                   witnesses are our cows and of course, they can't testify. If only they could.


                   Has anyone heard of something similar like this happening to anyone they know? Or did
                   anyone read anything similar to this?

                   Animals have rights and should be protected. Just ask my " girls ". I just hope in time that they
                   will heal and trust us again. They are such quiet and beautiful animals.



Friday 11/23/2001 7:59:51pm
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Hey folks! I do not condone the killing of any life, human or nonhuman. Animal



Friday 11/23/2001 7:16:53pm
            Name: Salley Jamison
           E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
         Location: San Francisco
       Comments: Please everyone, Piss on PETA! Wipe your ass with ALF! Electrocute ELF! for the sake of a
                   more peaceful world. If animals wanted liberation they would have evolved. Hierarchy is
                   natural.ALF response: Natural yes, but natural is not necessarily good. Nature and evolution
                   imply that MIGHT MAKES RIGHT, and nothing else.



Friday 11/23/2001 6:32:33pm
            Name: HELEN
           E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
         Location: NORTHERN IRELAND
       Comments: HI ZAC.
                   THANKS FOR REPLYING.ITS BEEN A GREAT HELP AND IM GOING TO CHECK
                   THE WEBSITE YOU MENTIONED NOW.CHEERS AND HAVE A FAB WEEKEND!THE
                   SAME TO BD AND ALL ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVISTS.
Friday 11/23/2001 6:24:46pm
            Name: Zac
           E-Mail: zacs_house@hotmail.com
 Homepage URL:
         Location: Durham, England
       Comments: Hi there Helen.

                    You were asking about beers and such that contain animal products ie. isinglass. Well if you go
                    to this link http://www.vegansociety.com/html/info/infohome.html you will find all the info you
                    could ever want. It contains everything from food additives derived from animal sources to
                    toiletries, which ones don't contain animal products, who makes them and where to buy them.


                    The site has a welth of infomation, so go and take a browse and enjoy.

                    Peace out, don't give up the fight, and stay true to yourself and your beliefs.

                    Zac..............


Friday 11/23/2001 6:10:01pm
            Name: Anna MacDonald
           E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
         Location: Southwestern Ontario, Canada
       Comments: It has been brought to my attention that the ALF along with many terrific organizations such as
                   PETA, etc. have been ridiculed by a website called 'Piss on PETA'. This website is sorely
                   misinformed by a bunch of redneck,inbred,hillbillies.Can we shut that website down somehow?
                   You've got my support ALF and I'll continue to fight for animal rights until I'm six feet
                   under.Best wishes.



Friday 11/23/2001 5:24:12pm
            Name: Helen
           E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
         Location: Northern Ireland
       Comments: HI BD
                   Thanks for replying.Its been a great help.I think all products should say if its suitable for
                   vegetarian & vegan people.



Friday 11/23/2001 5:14:45pm
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments:

                   Hi Helen,

                   Most 'micro brewed' beers contain gelatine. I know that Bud and Molson do not. I'm not sure
                   about Miller.

                   I'm one of those vegans who does drink.
                   :)



Friday 11/23/2001 4:51:07pm
            Name: Helen
           E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
         Location: Northern Ireland
       Comments: hi all
                   Ive heard that some alcoholic drinks contain animal products such as gelatine. I was wondering
                   if you knew if Budweiser & Miller are suitable for vegetarians. If not which ones are?Thanks
                   for any help!ALF response: The vegans I know don't drink. Vegetarians don't drink anything
                   with meat in it, which means that anything except tequila with a worm :>).




Friday 11/23/2001 4:26:42pm
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments:

                   Hi Gary:

                   I believe I was the only one who announced I was a conservative. And, BTW, I do believe in
                   God. I believe we do have a strong conservative government. Anything else?


Friday 11/23/2001 4:23:07pm
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments:

                   Hi Sandra:

                   Glad to know you're breaking the chain of animal exploitation in your family. I am NOT
                   suggesting you do this, but if it were my Dad and brother trapping, I think those traps would
                   find themselves dismantled and disposed of. :)
                    As for the mink release, yes, it is unfortunate that your Dad trapped some of the mink, but they
                    were doomed to a hideous death anyway. At least with them being released, they had a chance
                    at freedom. While some of them *may* have been caught, others were able to escape and live
                    their lives how they were meant to.



Friday 11/23/2001 4:02:04pm
            Name: gary f.
           E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
         Location: seattle
       Comments: why do most of you align yourself with pagenism or witchcraft? don't you think people would
                   relate with ya better if you believed in God? also, I don't see how you think you're conservative
                   when you don't believe in God and that the liberal politics of tony blair and the past clinton
                   administration allowed you to get away with your doings. a strongly conservative government
                   would smash you and your ideas!ALF response: We believe in logic, whereever that takes us
                   (By the way: congratulations: your comment about witchcraft is as absurd as any we have
                   received--based on zero logic and zero data).




Friday 11/23/2001 8:48:27am
            Name: Mr.unknown
           E-Mail: nomur@centrum.cz
 Homepage URL:
         Location: Czech republic
       Comments: I want to sey,that we haven't any internet page written in czech language. Do you know some
                   pages in czech internet.
                   Andrew.ALF response: Sorry, no. But if you find any animal rights links in foreign languages
                   please let us know. We'll link to them.



Thursday 11/22/2001 9:56:42pm
           Name: HELEN
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location: NORTHERN IRELAND
      Comments: HI,
                  I JUST WANT TO SAY THAT I THINK THIS IS ONE OF THE BEST SITES ON THE
                  INTERNET ALTHOUGH I AM NEW TO THE NET.YOU ALSO PLAY SOME ACE
                  TUNES TOO!ALF response: Thanks. Everything on the website has been trial and error and
                  sometimes we don't know why stuff works or doesn't.



Thursday 11/22/2001 1:20:38pm
           Name: BD
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
       Comments: Hi Glenn,

                   "How will ALF patrons celebrate Thanksgiving in America?"

                   ***With Tofurkey and all the vegan fixins to go with it.

                   "Surely you give no thanks to the system that you seek revenge against."

                   ***Well, I've never really 'given thanks' for all the animal abuse industries, but I think the rest
                   of America is pretty cool, so I'll give thanks for that.

                   "Do you not recognize without the industrial world and the society you live in you could never
                   be a vegan?"

                   ***How do you come to this conclusion? It would seem just the opposite to me.

                   "The fact that you can simply go to a grocery store and easily aquire all the specific foods your

                   ***We didn't always have grocery stores, and before there were, there were vegetarian Indians.
                   But, yeah, it is a convenience.

                   "You and your ideals exist only because of the system you despise allows it."

                   ***No, I exist because my parents got together. :) And my ideals exist because I'm able to
                   think for myself. I don't need a 'system' for my thoughts.

                   "Happy Holidays, you silly whackos!"

                   ***Thanks, same to you and yours.


Thursday 11/22/2001 12:46:04am
           Name: Glenn Farr
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location: Baumholder, Germany
      Comments: How will ALF patrons celebrate Thanksgiving in America? Surely you give no thanks to the
                  system that you seek revenge against. Do you not recognize without the industrial world and
                  the society you live in you could never be a vegan? The fact that you can simply go to a
                  grocery store and easily aquire all the specific foods your idealism calls on should be a
                  blessing. You and your ideals exist only because of the system you despise allows it. Happy
                  Holidays, you silly whackos!



Wednesday 11/21/2001 10:57:29pm
          Name: BD
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments:
Comments:

            In response to Barry's question:

            Aaron, Hank baseball's all time home run leader source: cover of vegetarian times cookbook

            Badman, Natascha - Ironlady of Hawaii 1998
            Bennett, Michael ??
            Bird, Larry ??

            Brock, Peter race car driver in australia is a vegan source: animal liberation NSW Australia


            Burwash, Peter tennis World Vegetarian Congress 1996
            Chappell, Greg Former Australian Cricketer; source: (Australian) Vegetarian & Natural Health
            Magazine
            Cope, Simon - cyclist - Linda McCarthy gives vegetarian team ticket to ride (EVU)
            De Costella, Robert Marathon runner - Australian; source: Australian Veg Magazine
            Evert, Christine former Tennis Champion source: Veg Soc
            Gray, Estelle cyclist Source: A Teen's Guide to Going Vegetarian
            Heidrich, Dr.Ruth Ironwoman (vegan)
            Hellriegel, Thomas - Iron man (EVU)
            Holmes, Keith Boxer source: When Keith fought Bernard Hopkins in a middleweight battle
            (winner fights Felix Trinidad), Larry Merchant (commentator for HBO) said Keith is a
            vegetarian.

            Howard, Desmond formerly w/Washington Redskins, now w/Jacksonville Jaguars Source:
            PETA mailer
            Kaat, Jim pitcher for chicago white sox source: common knowledge

            Kalbermatten, Frederik professional snowboarder source: friend of mine

            King, Billie Jean tennis champion Source: A Teen's Guide to Going Vegetarian
            Kowalski, Killer wrestler Source: A Teen's Guide to Going Vegetarian
            LaLonde, Donnie Former Light Heavyweight Champion of the World. (Lost title to Sugar Ray
            Leonard) Source: Article in San Jose Mercury News
            LaRussa, Tony Manager of St. Louis Cardinals - US team Source: PETA, Animals Agenda,
            Animals Voice, Veg Times, others
            Laumann, Silken Olympic rower Source: Cooking Television Show
            Lewis, Carl ??
            Linares, Sixto 24 Hour Trialathon source: Earthsave www.earthsave.org
            Lynn, Jamie professional snowboarder source: he ate in a friends restaurant

            Los Dolares Anarchist punk band source: web page www.geocities.com/losdolares

            Males, Dan Australian Olympian source: daughter
            Marek, Cheryl cyclist Source: A Teen's Guide to Going Vegetarian
            Mihelich, Taj (vegan) He's a BMX (bicycle motorcross) freestyle rider source: Interviews in
            Ride BMX, his company (Terrible One) website, letter responses, an e-mail I got from him.
            url: bmxcentral.com
            Müller, Nicolas professional snowboarder source: friend of mine
                 Monbiot, Katherine world champion arm wrestler and nutritionist (vegan) Source: The Vegan
                 Society UK
                 Moses, Ed undefeated over 400 m hurdles for more than eight years source: diet for a new
                 america - john robbins
                 Müller, Jutta multiple Windsurfing World Cup Champion Source: Flutlicht 95/6/18 on
                 Südwest 3 (German TV program)
                 Navratilova, Martina -- Retired Tennis Champion -- Pesto Sauce (recipe) (VegSocUK) Source:
                 Magazine Interviews/Genesis Awards
                 Niewiek, Julie Ann Basketball commentator Source: Grand Rapids press/ Image Magazine

                 Osborn, Tom Coached Nebraska Corn Husker's football for 25+ years (4 National
                 Parish, Robert Center - Warriors, Celtics, Hornets, Bulls Source: Hearsay
                 Pearl, Bill Bodybuilder, Mr America, Mr. Universe Source: Getting Stronger by Bill Pearl, pg
                 399
                 Peeler, Anthony NBA Grizzlies basketball player Source: NBA web site profiles
                 Rowley, Geoff professional skateboarder - vegan source: very well known, helped design a
                 cruelty free skateboarding shoe.
                 Ryde, Dr David -- Fellow of the Royal College of General Pratice and 15 years medical
                 adviser to the British Olympics Team -- Dr.Ryde's Casebook (OxVeg)
                 Scott, Dave Four time winner of the Hawaii Ironman Triathlon source: Australian Ultrafit
                 Magazine Issue 53 Page 56
                 Spaeth-Herring, Debbie Georgia State power-lifter Source: A Teen's Guide to Going
                 Vegetarian
                 Sumners, Rosalyn Figure Skater, 1983 World Champion, 1984 Olympic Silver Medalist
                 source: Stated in her introduction by Scott Hamilton for a Stars On Ice performance in 1993

                 Thomas, Jamie professional skateboarder source: very vell known; url:

                 Vaughn, Jacques All American point guard, #1-ranked Univ of KS Jayhawks Source:
                 Lawrence (KS) Journal World (numerous editions)
                 Walton, Bill and two others of championship Trailblazers, basketball players source: public
                 knowledge

                 Watson, Emmil - Gladiators’ athlete (UK TV) - Viva!’s Vegetarian Video is Food For Life
                 (EVU)

                 ***This is a short list of some famous vegan/vegetarian atheletes. Nobody can gain muscle
                 mass without working out, regardless of their food intake choice. Many of the
                 vegan/vegetarians I know (myself included) workout and eat right in order to maintain a
                 muscular physique. My workout includes weightlifting and crunches-six days a week. I also
                 spar--when I find the time. I have met many meateaters who appear spindly, out of shape, and
                 in poor health. It just depends on the person. I have noticed many meateaters to be obese, so
                 much so, they can barely walk up a flight of steps without looking like a stroke victim when
                 reaching the top. I don't say EVERY meateater is this way, and not every vegan/vegetarian is
                 the way you describe.ALF response: Nice work, BD!




Wednesday 11/21/2001 8:58:51pm
          Name: Bruce Radcliff
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
      Location: Miami
     Comments: Greetings ALF! Since becoming a vegan my life partner Simon and I have had more
                pleasurable sex. No kidding! When we first met we were both omnivores and during our love
                making the odor was a little offensive at times, if ya know what I mean. Now as vegans, we are
                not only heathier, but cleaner in our special areas. Sorry, I tried to illustrate without being too
                graphic. Anyway, thank you for your passion and drive.ALF response: Cleaner insides are one
                of the reasons that vegetarian males have a lower incidence of colon cancer.




Wednesday 11/21/2001 7:04:58pm
          Name: HELEN
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location: NORTHERN IRELAND
     Comments: HI EVERYONE.
                 ID JUST LIKE TO SAY TO JILL THAT THERE ARE SOME DELICIOUS VEGETARIAN
                 FOODS AND ID SUGGEST LINDA MCCARTNEY OR QUORN VEGGIE
                 BURGERS,SAUSAGES,SOUTHERN FRIED GRILLS,SAUSAGE ROLLS,NUGGETS ALL
                 OF WHICH TASTE YUMMY AND SHOULD HELP RID YOU OF MEAT
                 CRAVINGS!EAT MORE FRUIT & VEGETABLES TOO!!



Wednesday 11/21/2001 6:57:14pm
          Name: susan fredrick
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location: new york
     Comments: alf, is there a way to ween my dog and cat off of eating meat based foods? it sickens me when i
                 watch them eat their food like voracious carnivores. i think we should focus on converting all
                 the animals of earth to eat only vegetables. its so cruel to see my cat catch a mouse or a bird, it
                 really angers me! bottom line: peace will never exist until all creature of the earth are
                 vegetarians.ALF response: This is not our area of expertise, but we have found that most
                 animals will eat anything when they are hungry, and so we give them quality vegan food (if
                 necessary, the foods mentioned by Helen (above)) Our dogs will eat a boiled tire if they think it
                 came from our plate.


Wednesday 11/21/2001 6:43:32pm
          Name: jill
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location: Michigan
       Comments: Dear A.L.F.- I've been a vegetarian for nearly a year now and it seems my health has gone
                 down hill. At first I felt great, but now my energy level is down and I crave meat for some
                 reason. Are you ever tempted and want to give in to eating a juicy burger or a slice of turkey
                 with gravey and potatoes? Any advice on why I feel so crumby and want to go back to eating
                 meat? If not I may end up giving into tomorrow's traditional Thanksgiving feast. Please,
                 help!ALF response: We're not medical doctors or psychologists, and we can't guess as to where
                 the problem is. For many vegans and vegetarians the thought of eating dead flesh makes us a
                 bit ill. Doctors say you are healthier without meat--but the mind/body can crave a lot of things
                 that are not good for it, and the mind/body can make itself pretty miserable.




Wednesday 11/21/2001 6:32:54pm
          Name: Barry Davidson
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location: Austin Texas
     Comments: Hi ALF, Can a vegen(sp?) become a competitive athlete? I know of no vegen that competes in
                 any major sporting event. All the vegens I have seen have spindly arms and legs and look sick
                 and emaciated. It seems that if you don't eat meat you have no muscle. Good Day!ALF
                 response: The first man to repeat as iron man champion was a vegetarian. Carl Lewis (sprinter)
                 Vegan only when training. Edwin Moses is a vegetarian. There are hundreds more. No
                 reputable doctor says you need meat to be strong and healthy.




Wednesday 11/21/2001 5:56:03pm
          Name: Johan Wilen
         E-Mail: ytrewq@worldonline.se
 Homepage URL:
       Location: Sweden
     Comments: i found this on the internet, can this be true?
                 http://www.bonsaikitten.com/bkgallery.htmlALF response: Thankfully it is only a sick hoax



Wednesday 11/21/2001 11:35:42am
          Name: BD
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: Yes, Jenny, I would be considered a conservative. There are many conservative ARA's.
                 Anymore questions?



Wednesday 11/21/2001 11:32:16am
          Name: BD
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
       Comments:

                    Hi ALF, If faced with the life or death situation of being lost in a wilderness like one of the
                    many here in the pacific northwest, would you turn on your belief system and eat insects, catch
                    fish or snare animals for your own survival?

                    ***In a life or death situation, things change...some folks have actually turned to cannibalism.
                    We know that it is not necessary to consume flesh in order to survive. If there are no other
                    options, I have no problem with someone eating meat. Only truly altruistic people would allow
                    themselves to die.

                    I'll assume none of you believe in owning a firearm, so shooting an animal wouldn't be an
                    option.

                    ***I own two.

                    By the way, there are very few edible plants here in the pacific N.W. and definitely not enough
                    to sustain a human. Do you think you would answer to the hunger cries of your starving body
                    when faced with the above scenario or would you suppress it with your idealism and perish?


                    ***Already answered.

                    Also, the native americans of this area were for the most part meat eaters. Salmon, deer, elk
                    and small game were over 90% of their diet, berries are only seasonal.

                    ***There were also vegetarian Indians. As stated, if flesh is the ONLY source of food, I have
                    no problem with it, but in today's world, that isn't the case.


Wednesday 11/21/2001 9:54:29am
          Name: jenny
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location: redding, ca
     Comments: ALF conservative? not according to the FBI's profile of you. Where is the correlation between
                 anti-abortion conservatives and ALF individuals who believe animals are equal to people and
                 that humans are separate from the natural food chain? The only reason ALF exists is because
                 of the dung dwelling liberal degenerates of Europe and North America who are pushing their
                 socialist/communist agenda. Therefore, you and your idealism exist only because of the left
                 wing. Fortunately, things are beginning to tighten up and your misfit cells will soon shrivel up.




Wednesday 11/21/2001 6:34:41am
          Name: Jerod M.
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location: N.Cali.
      Comments: Hi ALF, If faced with the life or death situation of being lost in a wilderness like one of the
                many here in the pacific northwest, would you turn on your belief system and eat insects, catch
                fish or snare animals for your own survival? I'll assume none of you believe in owning a
                firearm, so shooting an animal wouldn't be an option. By the way, there are very few edible
                plants here in the pacific N.W. and definitely not enough to sustain a human. Do you think you
                would answer to the hunger cries of your starving body when faced with the above scenario or
                would you suppress it with your idealism and perish? Also, the native americans of this area
                were for the most part meat eaters. Salmon, deer, elk and small game were over 90% of their
                diet, berries are only seasonal.



Wednesday 11/21/2001 2:43:30am
          Name: Schultzy
         E-Mail: none of your business
 Homepage URL: http://www.geocities.com/schultzy_2k
       Location: CANADA
     Comments: You people are nothing but a bunch of terrorists and criminals. You will all be hunted down
                 and locked away. I cant wait.



Wednesday 11/21/2001 1:10:24am
          Name: BD
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments:

                   Mary writes: "Why do we have meat tearing incisors amongst our set of teeth?"

                   BD writes: Meat tearing incisors? I gotta see a picture of your choppers! You can claim to have
                   'meat tearing incisors' when they grow to the length and sharpness of a lion, wolf, tiger, etc.


                   Mary: "I recently read some psycologist report that claimed you're all going through a phase
                   and many of you are lonely and were brought up in a disfunctional family. This is your way of
                   crying out. What do you think about that analysis?"

                   BD: Psychology was my minor in college. :) If this is a phase, it's lasted a mighty long time.
                   I'm not lonely. I married, have family and many friends. I think EVERY family is a little
                   dysfunctional, it's becoming the 'norm.' Personally, I think that analysis is absurd.

                   Mary: "Also, what is the average age of ALF supporters?"

                   BD: I can only speak for myself, 28.



Wednesday 11/21/2001 0:50:11am
          Name: BD
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
      Location:
     Comments:

                  "Hello ridiculously excessive animal lovers, I'm a hunter and a trapper here in the liberal state
                  of MN. Though I'm not fond of the politics in this state, at least the socialists that run this state
                  have some tolerance to recognize the ecological importance and the tradition of hunting,
                  trapping and fishing. Why can't you do the same? Isn't it the "left" who always preaches
                  tolerance and diversity as virtue?"

                  ***Hello hunter/trapper. FYI, I'm not a ridiculously excessive animal lover. I believe that
                  nonhumans have the right to live and to be free from exploitation, it's as simple as that. There
                  is no ecological importance of the 'tradition' of hunting/trapping and fishing, it's an industry,
                  that's all. You line your wallet with the money you get from the fur you sell and the
                  government lines its wallets with the fees associated with hunting/trapping and fishing. BTW, I
                  would be considered a conservative. :)

                  Please, try it out for once, you may become enlightened. No one is asking you to eat meat. All I
                  ask is just let people go about in their liberty without infringement.

                  ***All I ask is that animal exploiters let nonhumans go about their lives without infringement.
                  Try it out, you may become enlightened.

                  Remember, you're the one with the problem, not us. By the way, please continue with the
                  foolish acts of eco-terrorism, it benefits us at the voting polls when the voters are reminded of
                  your imbecility.

                  ***You are correct, we are the ones with a problem, folks like YOU are the problem.


Wednesday 11/21/2001 0:28:00am
          Name: BD
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments:

                  Sarah writes: "I'm apalled at the pagan like atmosphere on this site. Though I'm a vegetarian, I
                  would never associate with such intolerant, narrow minded, self rightous, short lived idealists
                  that frequent this site and believe there is no hierarchy in the animal kingdom. It's a darn shame
                  so many lost souls fall into nihilism. The political liberal degenerates of Europe and the U.S.
                  are to blame for giving radical fringe groups life. Your problem with people eating animals
                  reveals more about yourself than the problem you think exists. May God have mercy on your
                  troubled souls."
                 BD writes: Pagan like atmosphere? On this site? Where! First, let me just say, nobody asked
                 you to associate with anything on this board. It would seem to me, YOU are the intolerant,
                 narrow-minded, blah,blah,blah, individual. I think it's GREAT that you are a vegetarian! My
                 reason for being vegan is to save lives, the health benefit is just a plus. Of course there is a
                 hierarchy in the animal kingdom, but it's man-made. YOU are 'supreme' to other animals only
                 because YOU think you are. In actuality, you are no better than any other animal, you're just
                 different from those other animals. While the animal rights/welfare movement has made many
                 good changes, it doesn't move quickly enough to end the suffering of animals being tortured
                 and killed in the present. This leads some folks into acting for the oppressed at present time. I
                 love it when people call animal rights activists 'radical fringe groups.' So, you must think it's
                 pretty 'radical' to speak for those who cannot speak for themselves. I guess if we have extremist
                 views, then so did the underground railroad? It becomes a 'problem' with people eating animals
                 when I punch someone for eating a hamburger, so far, that hasn't happened. I think God is just



Tuesday 11/20/2001 11:47:33pm
           Name: BD
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments:

                 Cliff writes: "Is there any way animal rights groups will tolerate hunting, trapping or fishing? I
                 just don't understand their conflict with these activities. I think if anything animal rights groups
                 should focus on the large corporate farms before some lowly sportsman who takes a little game
                 ocasionally."

                 BD writes: No animal 'rights' group that I know of is in favor of hunting, trapping or fishing.
                 Animal rights organizations are trying to make changes. Some of those changes include;
                 educating the public on healthier and more environmentally friendly diets and giving equal
                 consideration to nonhuman species. Animal rights groups DO focus on large corporate farms.
                 What you need to understand, is there are many animal rights AND welfare groups. Many
                 animal rights groups go after factory farming, as do animal welfare groups. The animal rights
                 movement has, I believe, a more broad focus. They go after all animal exploitation. Animal
                 rights groups do not tolerate hunting, trapping and fishing, because they believe those
                 nonhumans have a RIGHT to life.



Tuesday 11/20/2001 7:50:26pm
           Name: helen
          E-Mail: helencottney@hotmail.com
 Homepage URL:
        Location: northern ireland
      Comments: IN RESPONSE TO CLIFF,I COME FROM NORTHERN IRELAND.IN MY COUNTRY
                  THE HARE IS ON THE BRINK OF EXTINCTION BECAUSE OF HUNTING.I THINK
                  THAT IS TERRIBLE AND WE SHOULD TRY TO PRESERVE THE LIVES OF THESE
                  BEAUTIFUL CREATURES.MANY OTHER ANIMALS ARE ALSO ON THE BRINK OF
                  EXTINCTION.THE RATE THE WORLD IS GOING THERE WILL BE NO ANIMALS
                  LEFT.POLITICIANS AND PEOPLE SHOULD DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
Tuesday 11/20/2001 5:42:23pm
           Name: Peg-Leg Bates
          E-Mail: veegman@erols.com
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: Hello folks -
                  I have a boat-load of current brochures from the American Anti-Vivisection Society that I will
                  not be able to use in a million years. Does anyone out there want some? They make great
                  "envelope stuffers" for those "business reply" envelopes that most people just toss in the trash.
                  They are good for tablings too.
                  If you would like some, please send me your snail mail address.

                    Peace,
                    Joe
                    ALF response: Stuffing literature into junk mail reply envelopes is a great idea.



Tuesday 11/20/2001 4:26:00pm
           Name: Brandon C. Howard
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location: Portland Oregon
      Comments: Hi ALF, Aren't you guys afraid the F.B.I. is gonna eventually catch you? Not too long ago on
                  the news here in Portland I saw the ELF spokesman Craig Rosebum's(sp?)house was raided
                  and his computer taken by the F.B.I. He said he's now finished with ELF because of that
                  incident. Also, I heard congress is drafting up new legislation to slam groups like you hard.
                  You can bet if it makes it through the house and senate G.W.Bush will sign it. Do you feel
                  safe?ALF response: Most of us, myself included, don't live in the USA. But we have never
                  been safe anywhere. If you do a websearch using ALF and FBI you will come to several links
                  about ALF on the FBI website. They know the difference between ALF (whose credo is to
                  harm no sentient beings) and ELF (who seems to be more rambunctious). The fact that some
                  ELF members claim ALF affiliation is no more relevent than Usama bin's affilication with the
                  Muslim religion.


Tuesday 11/20/2001 3:46:40pm
           Name: Mary Johnson
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location: San Francisco, CA
       Comments: Why do we have meat tearing incisors amongst our set of teeth? ALF response: A common
                 argument for eating meat is that it is part of human evolution --survival of the fittest. The traits
                 we should strive for are not all that evolution favors--such as aggression. People live longer not
                 eating meat. I recently read some psycologist report that claimed you're all going through a
                 phase and many of you are lonely and were brought up in a disfunctional family. This is your
                 way of crying out. What do you think about that analysis?ALF response: The members I know
                 have advanced degrees in science, and I think they are a little crazy. But that not a professional
                 opinion. Also, what is the average age of ALF supporters?ALF response: We are an
                 anonymous group, so I can't guess. The average age of the five people I know is about 40.




Tuesday 11/20/2001 2:44:07pm
           Name: Aaron in Minnesota
          E-Mail: cunningcalico@aol.com
 Homepage URL:
        Location: Land of Timberwolf trapping (soon)
      Comments: Hello ridiculously excessive animal lovers, I'm a hunter and a trapper here in the liberal state of
                  MN. Though I'm not fond of the politics in this state, at least the socialists that run this state
                  have some tolerance to recognize the ecological importance and the tradition of hunting,
                  trapping and fishing. Why can't you do the same? Isn't it the "left" who always preaches
                  tolerance and diversity as virtue?ALF response: It's a misconception that ALF members are
                  "liberal". Many of our USA supporters come from the far right and are known as "anti-
                  abortionists" or something like that. I can't find a voting pattern among ALF members,
                  although, in general they don't live in the USA. Please, try it out for once, you may become
                  enlightened. No one is asking you to eat meat. All I ask is just let people go about in their
                  liberty without infringement.ALF response: Change can be good, too. If it wasn't for rebellion,
                  you'd still be part of my country--the UK. Remember, you're the one with the problem, not us.
                  By the way, please continue with the foolish acts of eco-terrorism, it benefits us at the voting
                  polls when the voters are reminded of your imbecility.ALF response: Okay. Thanks for your



Tuesday 11/20/2001 1:46:11pm
           Name: Sarah Dzeiken
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location: Tacoma Washington
      Comments: I'm apalled at the pagan like atmosphere on this site. Though I'm a vegetarian, I would never
                  associate with such intolerant, narrow minded, self rightous, short lived idealists that frequent
                  this site and believe there is no hierarchy in the animal kingdom. It's a darn shame so many lost
                  souls fall into nihilism. The political liberal degenerates of Europe and the U.S. are to blame
                  for giving radical fringe groups life. Your problem with people eating animals reveals more
                  about yourself than the problem you think exists. May God have mercy on your troubled
                  souls.ALF response: You're wrong about everything and you seem more troubled about our
                  behavior we are about your behavior. We're following our passions. We're not writing letters to
                  websites in which we disagree -- that would be a sign that that satan was baking bisquits in our
                  head.
Tuesday 11/20/2001 1:01:50pm
           Name: Cliff
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location: Oregon
      Comments: Is there any way animal rights groups will tolerate hunting, trapping or fishing? I just don't
                  understand their conflict with these activities. I think if anything animal rights groups should
                  focus on the large corporate farms before some lowly sportsman who takes a little game
                  ocasionally.ALF response: There are many animal welfare groups that support hunting and
                  trapping. We don't follow the politics of them all. Hopefully some readers of this guestbook
                  will help.



Monday 11/19/2001 8:58:47pm
          Name: Leonora
         E-Mail: LapOfGods@hotmail.com
 Homepage URL:
       Location: Italy
     Comments: I would strongly join. I'm from Rome.ALF response: Thanks. We don't have official
                 membership. Information regaring considering yourself a part of our organization is on our
                 website.


Monday 11/19/2001 8:21:03pm
          Name: Van Dotson
         E-Mail: Kangaroo118@yahoo.com
 Homepage URL:
       Location: Arizona
     Comments: hi im Van and i want to know how to join.ALF response: Thanks. We don't have official
                 membership. Information regaring considering yourself a part of our organization is on our
                 website.



Monday 11/19/2001 6:18:39pm
          Name: helen
         E-Mail: helencottney@hotmail.com
 Homepage URL:
       Location: northern ireland
     Comments: I THINK ONE OF THE WAYS WE CAN INCREASE SUPPORT FOR ANIMAL
                 LIBERATION IS THROUGH ART-IE-THE TELEVISION & MUSIC.IF A SCENE OF
                 ANIMAL SLAUGHTER APPEARS ON TV MOST MEAT EATERS TURN OFF BUT
                 THOSE THAT WATCH MIGHT BE TURNED AGAINST IT.I WENT VEGETARIAN
                 AFTER HEARING THE SMITHS "MEAT IS MURDER" AND IM SURE MANY OTHER
                 FANS DID TOO.IT MADE ME STOP AND THINK ABOUT THE ISSUE OF ANIMAL
                 ABUSE AND I THINK IT COULD BE ONE OF OUR GREATEST WEAPONS TO USE TO
                 BOOST SUPPORT AS MOST PEOPLE HEAR & SEE T.V &MUSIC EVERY DAY!ALF
                 response: We strongly agree.
Monday 11/19/2001 6:14:00pm
          Name: The Cat
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: Mark, thank you for your admitted admiration of Barry's tenacity but I fail to understand why
                 you call him "stupid" for following his convictions and paying the ultimate price. His death has
                 exposed and embarrassed the Government, exposed press suppression and lies about his
                 hunger strike. Barry had a pagan funeral and held the view that death means a beginning not an
                 end. His family supported his wishes and they can be proud of his courageous act.




Monday 11/19/2001 6:13:50pm
          Name: mark
         E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: V Now there is a guy (Sean) who should go on a hunger strike, I have never heard such radical
                 ignorance in my life.ALF response: Many scientists agree with Sean. Earth will survive, but
                 mankind has been present only a small small percentage of earth's life, and mankind is not
                 doing what is best for its survival in the long run. But the cockroach will probably survive our
                 stupidity. The life of our sun (and therefore all life on earth) is half over. As John Mellencamp
                 said, "Nothing matters, and what if it did?"



Monday 11/19/2001 3:15:46pm
          Name: Sean Gallacher
         E-Mail: sepegall@hotmail.com
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: No experiments AT ALL. No birds in cages AT ALL. No animals in pet stores AT ALL.
                 Empathy is the goal. No more unnecessary pain. All I want is an end to MAN's exploitation of
                 animals, women and children. Men are the disease. One day the insects will rule the world and
                 we will be long forgotten. Why? Because we made a complete arse of it. Go ALF. Animal
                 rights is all about empathy. If the abusers posess no empathy then direct action must be taken
                 because it is the only recourse against such intransigence. These abusers are the enemies of
                 civilisation. Respect to nature. ALF, go forth and prosper.



Monday 11/19/2001 3:42:48am
          Name: mark
         E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
       Comments: ALF responder, you'll get no argument from me on the fact that trappers and hunters knew
                 what he stood for, and believe it or not, we admire his tenacity, it is his "stupidity" (to the point
                 of killing himself) that we hold in disdain. As I stated before, his death was in vain, and he
                 could have done so much more had he had the moral courage to continue living.




Sunday 11/18/2001 7:55:40pm
           Name: mark
          E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: Cat, The Govt did not withhold food from Barry, Barry withheld food from Barry. He died
                  leaving children, to bring attention to his cause. I personally think that is as self centered as you
                  can be. Tony Blair and his cohorts are doing what a govt is supposed to do, follow the wishes
                  of the majority. Barry died in vain!ALF response: Barry's goal was to make others aware of
                  certain issues (like actors say, "there is no such thing as bad press"). Barry would be thrilled
                  that trappers in America know what he stood for. I imagine when I die that folks in the next
                  town over (York) will not know what I stand for. Barry's relatives supported him.




Sunday 11/18/2001 6:07:58pm
           Name: Brian
          E-Mail: spazz@uswest.net
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: Barry Horne, REST IN PEACE



Sunday 11/18/2001 12:41:30am
           Name: BD
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: Turkey hunt shot down; 320 birds remain
                  Sales promotion: A salvage yard owner scraps a plan to let customers pursue birds. Now he has
                  a lot of surplus poultry.
                  BY KIMI YOSHINO, TIMES STAFF WRITER

                    OK, his holiday promotion for selling auto parts turned out to be a turkey. But now Glenn
                    McElroy has a bigger problem on his hands: what to do with the 320 birds running around his
                    salvage yards.

                    The Pick Your Part president's advertising campaign for four Southern California locations
                    invited customers, starting Friday, to buy an auto part, then get a turn chasing turkeys around
                    the yards. If they could catch one, they could take it home for 25 cents.
Then People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals got wind of the marketing scheme and fired
off angry letters to animal control officials. They, in turn, have put an end to "The Great
American Turkey Hunt" before it even started, ordering McElroy to cease and desist or face
criminal charges. He is complying, albeit a bit sheepishly.

"This really backfired on me," said McElroy, who suffered numerous wisecracks around his

He is hurriedly trying to find an organization that feeds the poor for Thanksgiving. If it takes
live donations, that is. Most organizations would need a permit to kill the birds, so now
McElroy is searching for a cooperative slaughterhouse too. Individuals are allowed to kill
animals for their own consumption as long as it is done humanely, according to animal control
and health officials.

The failed gimmick has set McElroy back $5,000 just to buy the birds from a Fresno farm.
Then there's the cost of advertising, trucking, not to mention turkey feed ("They eat like pigs")
for a tab he hasn't yet totaled.

McElroy can't quite figure out what the flap is all about.

"I didn't see anything wrong with it," said McElroy, who has been caring for the noisy turkeys
for about a week now. "I still don't see anything wrong with it. I've been treating them
humanely. They're in a pen with shade and water. We've bought tons of food."


The promotion was to be a "test run" at two Pick Your Part yards in Wilmington, one in Sun
Valley and one in Anaheim. In future years, McElroy hoped to expand it to his 17 yards
elsewhere in California and Texas.

But that dream ended when he got back to the office after lunch Wednesday and was greeted
by Los Angeles and Orange County animal control officers, who came armed with a cease-and-
desist order and a list of laws he'd be breaking if he went through with the turkey chase.


Chief among them is the law that prohibits torturing and tormenting animals.

"It's inhumane," said Los Angeles animal services spokeswoman Jackie David. "The turkeys
could hurt themselves. It's very stressful for the turkeys."

McElroy also was cited for the turkeys' somewhat cramped conditions and dirty water. But

PETA officials said they were pleased by the response of the animal control agencies. And,
although this holiday sales pitch was a bit unorthodox, they said they're used to fighting off
strange turkey ideas every year about this time.

A radio station in Portland, Ore., for example, is holding Tyrese the Turkey hostage,
threatening to execute him if ample funds are not raised by Thanksgiving for victims of the
Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. PETA also is protesting that scheme.

"At Thanksgiving, we pull out all the stops," said PETA's vegan campaign coordinator Bruce
Frierich. "We attempt to speak up for turkeys."
                    ****If anyone would like to contact this guy to let him know what's wrong with what he did,
                    here's his mailing address: 1235 S Beach Blvd. Anaheim, CA 92804 (714) 385-1301


                    Unfortunately, the LA Times didn't mention which radio station is doing this ridiculous scheme
                    regarding the turkey and the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.



Sunday 11/18/2001 11:35:42am
           Name: The Cat
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: Millions of animals condemned to death in EU ruling on testing. Rats, mice, guinea pigs and


Sunday 11/18/2001 7:29:10am
           Name: The Cat
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: Barry died because he stayed true to his word and beliefs. The Labour Government prior to
                  coming to power issued a manifesto promising to ban fox hunting, mink farms and a Royal
                  Commission into vivisection. (scientific fraud and a waste of taxpayers money) The
                  Government has reneged on all these promises incurring the wrath of all activists. Tony Blair
                  and his cohorts are directly responsible for Barry's death. He went on hunger strike in prison to
                  bring Labour's lies to public notice. He had the courage of his convictions Alas our
                  Government, no doubt paid off by the giant pharmaceutical companies, failed to keep it's
                  promises. Barry Horne did not wish to die, he was a man of great courage and should be
                  treated with respect. His death is an embarassment to the Government and the press who
                  claimed that his hunger strike was a sham.



Sunday 11/18/2001 4:07:53am
           Name: mark
          E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: Barry Horne was an idiot! He died an idiot, and his memory (for realist) while noble, will
                  always be such. He could have done so much more with that passion had he been a little
                  smarter. Cat, you don't suprise me a bit with your lament, but let's face facts here, his passions
                  were mis-directed (at best) and he was terribly misguided. Sorry I haven't been here for a while
                  guys, but trapping season is in full swing and I am busier than a two peckered billy goat.




Sunday 11/18/2001 2:52:29am
           Name: josh
          E-Mail: ronaldtetreau@msn.com
 Homepage URL:
      Location:
     Comments: i have to say u people are the greatest organization i have ever heard of!!! Im 15 and a
                vegitarian. I live in a small town in massachisetts i was wondering if there was anything i could
                do to help your cause. If you would let me know I would greatly appreciate it. Thank
                you.Thanks for caring. Read info on this website and learn the common arguments folks use to
                be against animal rights. Don't waste time on folks who just want to argue. Talk to those who
                are seriously interested in learning why you are vegetarian. The AR movement grows by word
                of mouth. Convincing 3 or 4 others to give up half their meat does more than any one person
                can do. Use the search engine on this website to find ALF activites near you. keep in touch.
                Thanks.



Saturday 11/17/2001 8:25:19pm
            Name: The Cat
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Yesterday we buried the remains of Barry Horne in Northampton UK. Many people from the
                   UK came to pay their respects. According to the Guardian Newspaper there were 700 people. I
                   wish that was so. About 400 people attended the funeral. We walked through Northampton
                   with a discreet police precendence. Then on to a burial site, Barry was interred with dignity
                   and with peace. He will be remembered with great respect.However many more will die
                   apposing business interests and profits. How many more animals must die for human profit and
                   greed.



Saturday 11/17/2001 8:05:47pm
            Name: The Cat
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: I was quite happy to put my details on the site, however I received pornographic mail from
                   people maybe like you. This is why the mail is minus an address.


Friday 11/16/2001 5:35:14pm
            Name: GDS
           E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
         Location:
      Comments: I see your website has no personal contact information. Doesn't surprise me. ALF response:
                Personal contact information is on the bottom of each webpage. You'll get an email from us
                acknowledging that you signed the guestbook. Either way reaches us. Mail addresses are also
                on the website. Fire bombing McDonalds would get you in a lot of trouble, let alone showing
                the world your true corawdess- kinda like the Al-Qe'eda.ALF response: Exactly like Al-Qe'eda
                except we are trying to save lives (and our credo prohibits harming any living being) and they
                are trying to take lives. I suppose that is an insignificant difference to some folks. How many
                toxins did that burning McDonalds release into the Tucson enviornment. I can hear your
                presious birds gasping for breath. ALF response: Good point, and hopefully taken into
                consideration.Your organization is not at all for the protection of animals. It's merely for the
                protection of your own egos, and for the quest to feel better about yourselves. There is nothing
                wrong with that except by the methods you use. Your ideals are incredibly one-sided, and
                therefore destructive to your own cause. Keep up the terrorist work. It'll lead your own demise.
                ALF response: 98% (guessing here) of animal rescues by ALF go unreported and unnoticed.
                -GDSALF response: Many folks post in this guestbook who are against us. Once they have
                gotten to know us they have even told us where they live. We don't send out any emails,
                although some posters email other posters.



Friday 11/16/2001 1:51:37am
            Name: hardcore bob
           E-Mail: anok4me@streetpunks.com
 Homepage URL: http://www.totallypunk.com
         Location: RI
       Comments: good site... lots of good @#%$!



Thursday 11/15/2001 12:39:31am
           Name: The Cat
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: Nice one bd.



Thursday 11/15/2001 11:16:06am
           Name: BD
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments:

                  Hi Cat,

                  If you haven't already, go to this website--www.animalliberation.net

                  I think you'll find the front page nice.
Thursday 11/15/2001 3:19:50am
           Name: The Cat
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: Not only has Barry Horne sadly died for our cause but I now hear that three people have been
                  incarcerated for their unrelenting targeting of Huntingdon Life Sciences. This sends a strong
                  message to those who abuse animals in the name of "science" that we are willing to die and to
                  go to prison to expose fraud and the filthy industries that promote animal abuse. We cannot be
                  stopped because we speak the truth and inevitably the truth will prevail.



Wednesday 11/14/2001 4:15:50pm
          Name: BD
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: Brian Wrote:

                   To the Almighty(awful, desperate) Hunter, I just have a Quick question, Would you still hunt if
                   the animals shot back? And to the Persons that decried the ALF, I wish you were in those
                   cages, living in your filth, going through what those animals live through each day of their
                   short lives.

                   BD writes:

                   Amen!



Tuesday 11/13/2001 7:19:02pm
           Name: noel casler
          E-Mail: theaudaciousone@hotmail.com
 Homepage URL:
        Location: new york, n.y
      Comments: Let me know what I can do!, peace-noelALF response: Thanks for caring. Work towards being
                  vegetarian and convince others. Read info on this website and use the search engineto find
                  activites near you. keep in touch.



Tuesday 11/13/2001 1:17:19pm
           Name: Bob Chorush
          E-Mail: fieldofdreamshuntingclub@hotmail.com
 Homepage URL: http://home.mindspring.com/~bob19/fieldofdreams/
        Location: Washington
      Comments: More Duck for the Buck
      Comments:

                  The Field of Dreams Hunting Club, a recreational group composed of off-duty animal rights
                  activists, report that their fourth hunting excursion to Crescent Lake, WA on November 10 was
                  a huge success despite the fact that no ducks were killed.

                  Field of Dreams hunters, who had been taunted for supporting wildlife hunting because they
                  purchased state licenses, got their money's worth this Saturday when they were assigned their
                  own Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife Enforcement Department guide. The
                  Enforcement Officer, who was courteous and knowledgeable, assisted our hunters with
                  equipment then defended us from irate pheasant hunters.

                  Pheasant hunters attempted to blame Field of Dreams hunters when a pack of their radio-
                  collared retriever dogs got out of control and jumped in the lake. Pheasant hunters accused our
                  hunters, who fired off more than 150 shotgun blasts, of being morons and psychopaths; though
                  neither intelligence nor sanity are requirements for a state hunting license, as the Enforcement
                  Officer pointed out.

                  "It was great," said Field of Dreams hunter Bob Chorush. "It was like having our own hunting
                  guide for free. We hope they can join us every time we go hunting. We certainly don't mind
                  buying licenses when we get such great service."

                  The Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife cage-raises pheasants who are released for
                  canned hunts. Those who are not gunned down die of exposure.

                  Write to Russ Cahill to let him know how you feel about canned hunts:

                  Russ Cahill, Chairperson
                  Washington Fish and Wildlife Commission
                  600 Capitol Way North
                  Olympia, WA 98501-1091
                  360-902-2200
                  360-902-2947 direct fax
                  E-mail: commission@dfw.wa.gov



Tuesday 11/13/2001 4:24:00am
           Name: Anonymous
          E-Mail: _
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: Please punish these cruel people http://www.bonsaikitten.com
                  who harm kittens.
                  ALF response: You'll be happy to know that Bonsaikitten has been proven by the HSUS and
                  FBI to be a sick joke. Ignore it, they want web traffic.



Tuesday 11/13/2001 3:05:29am
           Name: Brian
          E-Mail: spazz@uswest.net
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: First I would like to thank and congratulate the ALF on defending our natural world. I wish
                everyone could open their eyes to the injustness and rape of every species that walk this planet.
                The exploitation of animals is outrageous and needs to be stopped!! Second I would like to
                reply to the people that wrote to this website a day or two ago. To the Almighty(awful,
                desperate) Hunter, I just have a Quick question, Would you still hunt if the animals shot back?
                And to the Persons that decried the ALF, I wish you were in those cages, living in your filth,
                going through what those animals live through each day of their short lives. Waiting for death
                is their only hope. I much rather die with aids or cancer than to know that something that will
                save my meager life, took the many lives of other living things. And I know this statement will
                get criticized about when I get sick, don't I take store bought medicine and my answer: Nope, I
                just eat a lot of garlic.


                   On a national note: Did everyone hear about the Oil fields in the artic nation refuge. There is a
                   debate whether oil should be drilled there. And president Bush is trying to pass the bill, saying
                   we need to set up drilling fields to add more security at home(after the sept 11 attack). The
                   Artic nation refuge is home to thousands of artic wildlife, drilling will upset the balance of this
                   ecosystem and destroy what has taken so long to protect. They are paying people that live near
                   the artic refuge to turn their heads the other way. We need to write to our so called leaders or
                   whom ever has the power to listen to the cries of the people. We must not let this happen.
                   Thankx for your time and thoughts. Stay True



Monday 11/12/2001 7:57:14pm
          Name: edwina shachar
         E-Mail: calvillo@freeuk.com
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: the site and the music are great. who ever you are and what ever you are doing for the animals

                   thanks
                   ed



Monday 11/12/2001 1:20:06pm
          Name: The Cat
         E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: BD check out the SHAC website, full write up on Barry, all you would want to know.



Monday 11/12/2001 1:15:13pm
          Name: The Cat
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
       Comments: Funeral for Barry Horne - Friday 16th November, also demo at HLS in memory Sunday 18th
                 Noveber. If anyone is interested in knowing more, check out the SHAC UK website. Now
                 updated. To the recent post wishing us with AIDS and Cancer, this a cruelty free site. Keep it
                 that way.



Monday 11/12/2001 0:31:39am
          Name: Kip I. Puffin
         E-Mail: animalrespecter@yahoo.com
 Homepage URL: http://www.geocities.com/animalrespecter/
       Location:
     Comments: Thank you!!!!!
                 Non-human animals are God's creatures,too.



Sunday 11/11/2001 11:31:34pm
           Name: BD
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: Great news, anti-speciesist. I'll check out the website you suggested. There's a lot more info on
                  the violence against ARA's. If anyone knows where I can get more information on Barry
                  Horne, I'd appreciate it. Thanks, and keep up the good work.


Sunday 11/11/2001 10:35:49pm
           Name: anti-speciesist
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: I HOPE THIS IS REALLY SO ---:::

                    Got this in the mail on Friday from the Ban Fur list (nov 9th):
                    Great News!

                    Just got a call from a fellow activist in Sweden. They have been working hard on fur issues.
                    They just banned fur farming. I don't have all of the details yet but they will follow. Great way
                    to start the weekend!

                    (check out http://www.onelist.com/community/BanFur
                    for it)

                    Oh and another thing: the sick asses in Germany talk all kinds of @#%$! about Horne. It sucks
                    so bad, people have no respect of nothing, not even many ar people. Whatever. Had to let
                    steam off about this. Sorry. I appreciate Mr. Horn so much. In deep thoughts for him!

                    Love to all of you. etc etc.

                    The part about terror inflicted on AR acitvist in the UK by BD is very interesting. Also the
                    stuff from cat about the press...etc.etc.
                   love xxxx

                   etc.



Sunday 11/11/2001 7:04:57pm
           Name: american hunter
          E-Mail: tednugent@nra.com
 Homepage URL: http://animalrightsfaggotsSUCK.com
        Location: anotherfuckinplanet
      Comments: go @#%$! a rabbit! I like little boys.



Sunday 11/11/2001 5:35:10pm
           Name: BD
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments:

                   To: "An American"

                   Cancer? Aids? Do you mind explaining why you wish such terrible things on folks like us?




Sunday 11/11/2001 5:08:47pm
           Name: Arlana Bedard
          E-Mail: izabela2@earthlink.net
 Homepage URL:
        Location: Long Beach, CA
      Comments:



Sunday 11/11/2001 3:59:16pm
           Name: An American
          E-Mail: U@SA.net
 Homepage URL:
        Location: Continental United States
      Comments: You people are really fanatics and I can only hope you all die of cancer and all your miscreant
                  children die of aids.


Saturday 11/10/2001 8:25:49pm
            Name: Paula
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
       Comments: another good one is

                    www.curedisease.com



Saturday 11/10/2001 1:56:37pm
            Name: The Cat
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Check out the sites of Americans for Medical Advancement and Europeans for Medical
                   Advancement, great sites, plenty of information to disprove the fraud of animal
                   experimentation in "medical research" for human cures for disease.



Friday 11/09/2001 7:13:54am
            Name: Ana Marcet
           E-Mail: khamana18@thailand.com
 Homepage URL:
         Location: Thailand
       Comments: How to do to become a member of the Animal Lberation Front?ALF response: Thanks for
                   caring. You're the first person to contact us from Thailand, so that makes you the ALF Queen
                   there. We don't have a membership list. We work alone, or in small cells of close friends.
                   Guidelines are listed on the website. Please keep in contact.



Friday 11/09/2001 1:55:38am
            Name: jarvis cuomo
           E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: those who are involved with alf or simply are just vegetarian are truely great people, i respect
                   anyone who will risk themselves for the sake of the defensless
                   what kills me is when people use the fact of supperior intelligence as an excuse to kill animals-
                   lol-why dont we use this " superior intellect" to wake up and realize that its wrong!?




Thursday 11/08/2001 9:27:40pm
           Name: The Cat
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: So it seems, acts against people are appalling and criminal, acts against animals are acceptable
                  and lawful. I agree with reservations the first, I disagree with the second. I invite your
                  comments.
Thursday 11/08/2001 9:04:09pm
           Name: The Cat
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: An addition to my recent post. Brian Cass, the manager of HLS was allegedly assaulted by
                  three people with baseball bats, he went back to work the following day and received overnight
                  press coverage as a hero. I think we all know what happens inside HLS. He has recently
                  received the Pharma Award for his contribution to science. Given the continuous exposes on
                  HLS, why is this man a hero? Thank you Lord Sainsbury and the collusion of the UK press.




Thursday 11/08/2001 6:42:39pm
           Name: The Cat
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: Let's consider the culpability of the press with their amnesic and selective reporting of true
                  events guaranteeing the sale of their newspapers. Notice the word "sale".

                    Throughout the battle against Shamrock Farm, (for those who don't know this cosy name
                    fronted the imprisonment of primates trapped, transported to the UK and destined to die in
                    "research" labs)the press turned up but left when no violence errupted between the protesters
                    and the police or security. When the vet's car was firebombed the press reported adversely
                    against the "criminals" responsible for this terrible act. Nothing was ever reported about the
                    daily violence against the primates kept in isolation in tiny cages. The same happened at
                    Hillgrove a cat farm.(another cosy name) The farmer loved his cats and his bank balance.
                    When the farm closed thanks to the protesters, the RSPCA made a killing, selling the cats and
                    receiving sympathetic press. Pictures of the cats behind bars were in every newpapers. They
                    were saved by the RSPCA, according to the press, who lifted not one finger to help the
                    campaign.

                    Now we have Barry Horne, "Bomber dies in prison", and "The Fanatic only prison could stop".
                    These stories appeared in the UK papers demonising all those who fight to help all animals
                    abused by the human system.

                    The press could help us, and in fact some have tried. The expose on HLS and
                    xenotransplantaion appalled the general public but it was not sustained why not, I guess the
                    answer is simple. I received a letter from a journalist who reported on Hillgrove Farm, she was
                    not allowed for legal reasons to continue the report. So much for the freedom of the press.


                    The pharmaceutical companies and businesses who thrive on animal abuse are very powerful.




Thursday 11/08/2001 0:20:48am
           Name:
        E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
      Location:
     Comments: Chers amis! Vous etes meilleures gens de la race humaine! Dieu garde les animaux! Bon
                chance!
                Vegans from Russia



Wednesday 11/07/2001 11:55:38pm
          Name: Ali j
         E-Mail: ganja@ali.tf
 Homepage URL:
       Location: Leicester, England
     Comments: BD : You should look at the reality of the situation. Governments don't listen, or care about
                 anything except greed & profit, regardless of the pain & suffering caused. Animals are
                 innocent; anyone who deliberately causes pain to an animal is no different in their attitude &
                 behaviour than someone who can hurt or abuse a child.
                 If these kinds of people can act in these extreme ways with the so-called "law" on their side
                 then the only possible way to defend the rights of the animals is to use equally extreme
                 measures. This is a situation brought about by the people who carry out the abuse, not by the
                 people who love life. If a person lives by butchery, then they should accept the consequences
                 of their actions.



Wednesday 11/07/2001 10:57:53pm
          Name: sue
         E-Mail: Lew4nne@aol.com
 Homepage URL:
       Location: norfolk
     Comments: I have just discovered the site and would like to say hello to all you kind people out there who
                 support the alf. Long live the ALF xxxxxxxxxx


Wednesday 11/07/2001 10:28:45pm
          Name: vegimite
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: i agree with cat, the law always protects the pathetic animal abusers, u cannot even stand witha
                 placard without being abused. if the govts of the worls dont listen to ppl, then what can we do
                 but resort to so called extreme measures.

                   Barry horne was a good man, and to die for the animals cause was a truly nobel thing.

                   I find it soo frustating that ppl proetesting worldwide for human rights abuses are given
                   funding, time in the news etc, but whenevr animal rights supporters do anything , no matter
                   how lawful, they are stabbed in the back.

                   oh and ali g, ure not the only one that thinks that way.
Wednesday 11/07/2001 6:15:23pm
          Name: The Cat
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: Here is another example of the violence of animal rights people. On Halloween night activists
                 protested outside Ivy Bank Farm in Newchurch Burton on Trent. This is a guinea pig breeders
                 "farm" the animals are bred and if they don't die at the farm are sent to laboratories to be
                 tortured and die, all for human medical research. (No doubt the Halls love their animals or
                 could it be their bank balance).

                   The protesters were assaulted by the security forces, four were taken to hospital with serious
                   head wounds. One man lost teeth and was unrecognisable. Another man stayed with the injured
                   and was arrested by the police because he breached clause 42. At no point did police try to stop
                   the violence and in fact no member of the security force was arrested. Strangely and
                   predictably this never reached national press. This is one more example of press suppression
                   and demonisation of animal rights people. Who owns the press. I always thought that
                   newpapers reported news. What a joke.



Wednesday 11/07/2001 2:09:14am
          Name: Gerogia McCarthy
         E-Mail: girlyg2001@yahoo.com
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: Hello,

                   I've been looking at the website of animal liberation front and found it incredibly thorough and
                   useful. I noticed that most of the stores that stock products that don't test on animals are in
                   america and i was hoping to gain information/addresses on similar stockists in London.


                   I would appreciate this very much. I have printed out the list of companies that do test on
                   animals, from your website and given it to everyone i know. I've also emailed it to as many
                   people as i could.
                   Thank you.



Wednesday 11/07/2001 1:43:45am
          Name: BD
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: Let's talk about violence...

                   1979 - 1999: TWO DECADES OF HUNT VIOLENCE
                   "Tolerance, understanding and dialogue are what we all seek.
                   Indeed, confrontation is not the country way."
Comments:




            Countryside Alliance, January 1999

            When we started collating the research for this article, our intention was to make it slightly
            light-hearted, and treat the subject with a degree of humour. However, the more we thought
            about it, and the more information we received, the less we were able to do so. After all, two
            people have died due to the actions of huntsmen, and countless others have been seriously
            injured. Hunt violence is no joke.

            The following cases are actual convictions of hunt supporters - you could multiply the number
            of these by 50 and still get nowhere the true number of incidents of violence against hunt
            protesters.

            This article is also a damning indictment of the legal system. Even though many of the hunt
            supporters listed were found guilty of violent offences, only a few have been jailed. In what
            other section of society would someone get a community service order after attacking, and
            wounding, several people with a scythe?

            Please note: Dates shown are the year of conviction, not the year the offence took place.


            1979

            IAN RANDELL, the son of the Badsworth FH's huntsman, was convicted of Actual Bodily
            Harm to a Sheffield sab.

            ROBIN FOYD, LENNOX FOYD, KENNETH LUXTON and IRENE LUXTON were each
            fined £100 for Affray after they attacked a L.A.C.S. monitor who was trying to film a kill.

            1980

            Supporter of the Enfield Chase FH, GEORGE ADAIR convicted of Criminal Damage to a sab
            vehicle and ordered to pay a £100 fine and £60 costs. On a charge of Assault on sabs the jury
            were unable to come to a unanimous decision so Judge Hickman decided for them, finding
            Adair Not Guilty despite the evidence of six sab witnesses, a detective constable, a sergeant, an
            inspector and a superintendent regarding his alleged violent behaviour. To cap it all the Judge
            ordered all the sab witnesses to return the next week where he bound them all over to keep the
            peace for a year - refusing them permission to offer any defence!! (Judge Hickman refused to
            comment on the nature of his own recreational pursuits!)


            MARTIN PHILIPS' 'sympathies' towards the hunt were so inflamed by the sight of two HSA
            sweatshirts, that he attacked the people inside them, leaving one requiring stitches to his face.
            Philips was fined £325, and ordered to pay £25 to each of his victims, as well as £19 damages
            for breaking a pair of spectacles.

            1981

            MAURICE BELL, master of the Wensleydale FH convicted of Assault and Actual Bodily
            Harm on two saboteurs, one of which he knocked unconscious and left needing stitches. A
            female sab was also dragged over a barbed wire covered wall. Bell was fined a total of £150.
ANDREW SMITH, a senior civil servant with the Dept. of Agriculture, his daughter LORNA
and son DEREK, all members of the Linlithgow & Stirlingshire FH (now defunct due to sab
pressure), along with ANDREW CROWE and MALCOLM DICK, were all convicted of
charges of Breach of the Peace and Assault. Each of the five was fined £400. At a failed
appeal, Lord Wheatly deplored the way the hunt members had acted as 'self-appointed
vigilantes'.

Courser KENNETH ALSOP is bound over for a year after a sab was assaulted at the National
hare-coursing event at Swaffham.

1984

Supporters of the Puckeridge FH, RONALD EDWARDS and his son STEVEN, bound over
for a year by the sum of £200 after an incident in which a sab was beaten unconscious. Another
hunt heavy was also fined £100 with £303.41 costs and compensation for damage caused to a
saboteur's car, when he crushed it with his own.

WILLIAM BOLTON, PAUL HAWKES and DAVID LYNNE, supporters of the Tynedale FH,
all bound over to keep the peace for 2 years in the sum of £200, after a vicious and unprovoked
attack on a Tyneside sab. Bolton also admitted a further charge of Criminal Damage for which
he was fined £50 with £24.41 compensation.

ROGER HOWARTH, a whipper-in for the Linlithgow & Stirlingshire FH found guilty of
damaging a CB radio belonging to Edinburgh sabs. He was ordered to pay the group the
princely sum of £10 for a new one.

Albrighton FH huntsman, NIGEL COX, convicted of firearms offences and given a 3 year
suspended prison sentence after he blew a hole in the radiator of an occupied sab minibus with
a shotgun. He was also given a conditional discharge for Assault (he had struck a sab with the
gun) and Criminal Damage to a camera. No damages were paid to sabs after police 'forgot' to
ask for them!

South Dorset kennelman NICHOLAS STEVENS and two of his henchmen all bound over to
keep the peace after an incident when 3 sabs were cornered in a field and attacked.



PAUL CONNOLLY attacked a sab with a pickaxe handle, beating him while he lay on the
ground. Fined £500 for Assault.

1990

THOMAS SMITH and JEFFERY COOK, supporters of the Bicester & Whaddon Chase FH
bound over for 1 year for Breach of the Peace after an incident which left the back window of a
sab's car completely smashed. The prosecution dropped charges of Criminal Damage and
Section 4 after a mysterious 30-minute adjournment of the court...

ROBERT ROUS, Master of Hounds and DAVID TROTMAN, kennel huntsman of the
Waveney Harriers both bound over to keep the peace after an incident when a hunt saboteur
had to be taken to hospital following repeated lashing from a riding crop. The C.P.S. attempted
to drop the case after medical evidence was 'lost', and witnesses weren't called....
DENIS LOUGH-SCOTT, a Heythrop FH supporter fined £50 for Actual Bodily Harm on a
hunt protester.

NEIL COLEMAN, first whip and kennel hand of the Cottesmore FH, fined £300 and £10 cost
after knocking an old lady off her bike, breaking bones and failing to stop, whilst driving the
hunt fleshwagon back from an evening down the pub.

1991

Hunt saboteur, Mike Hill, was killed on the 9th of February 1991 at a meet of the Cheshire
Beagles. Towards the end of the day's hunting, with no kill under his belt, the huntsman boxed
up his hounds in a small blue trailer being towed by an open-top pick-up truck. The kennel
huntsman, ALLAN SUMMERSGILL, with another man, jumped into the pick-up and, on
impulse, three sabs who were nearby, jumped onto the back of it to prevent them driving the
pack to another location to continue hunting. Summersgill drove off at high speeds down
winding country roads for 5 miles with the terrified sabs clinging onto the back. It is thought
that Mike jumped from the pick-up as it slowed to take a bend. He failed to clear the truck
properly, and was caught between the truck and the trailer, which crushed him. Mike died
where he lay on the road.

Despite the thud, and the screams of the other sabs, Summersgill continued driving for a
further mile. The truck only came to a halt when one of the sabs smashed the rear window of
the cab. The sab was hit with a whip as he tried to stop the truck. Once it had stopped one sab
ran back to Mike's prone body while the other ran to a nearby house to call for an ambulance.
Summersgill drove off. He later handed himself in at a police station. No charges were brought
against him and in a travesty of justice, a verdict of 'Accidental Death' was brought at the
inquest. Summersgill is still hunting hares.


EDWARD VICKERY, of the Quantock Staghounds, convicted of Assault after riding down
and attacking a saboteur. Fined £600

DUNCAN BRANCH, a subscriber to the Chiddingfold, Leconfield and Cowdray FH found
guilty of attacking 2 saboteurs with his fists and a riding crop. Fined £400 with £250 costs and
was ordered to pay £50 compensation to each of his victims.

MARK EVANS, whipper-in to the Hampshire Hunt, loses a private prosecution brought by a
saboteur he had beaten with his whip. Found guilty of Assault.

Bloodsports fanatic JIM NEWBURY STREET jailed for nine months after planting a bomb
under his own landrover in an attempt to discredit sabs.

FRANCIS MOMBER, the former master of the Hampshire Hunt, given a conditional discharge
and ordered to pay £175 compensation for smashing the windows on three sides of a saboteur's
vehicle. Flying glass cut the drivers hand and another occupant's mouth.


JUSTIN ELLIS, MATTHEW JONES and CHARLES PEACH, all supporters of the
Chiddingfold, Leconfield and Cowdray FH, found guilty of Affray after Ellis rammed the back
of a sab landrover, and Jones and Peach attacked it, breaking several windows. Ellis was fined
£400 and banned from driving, while the others were each fined £250.
Holderness FH's huntsman, WILLIAM DEAKIN, convicted of Criminal Damage to a sab van
and given a conditional discharge.

GARY WHELBRAND, an Albrighton FH supporter, found guilty of fracturing a saboteur's
jaw in two places and perforating his eardrum, after Whelbrand jumped the sab from behind,
dragging him to the ground in an unprovoked attack. He was convicted of ABH, and was fined
£250 with costs and £75 compensation.

Atherstone FH supporter convicted of Assault and fined £200, with £138 costs and £60
compensation.

Vale of White Horse FH whipper-in, MATTHEW CALCOT was ordered to pay £130
compensation and was bound over for a year for the sum of £100 after the windscreen of
Oxford HSA's van was smashed.

The South and West Wilts. FH's kennelman sacked after being convicted of Section 4 of the
Public Order Act. He had violently rocked a sab's car with people inside. He was also
convicted of Drink Driving at the time.

STEPHEN THAYNE, whipper-in to the Chiddingfold FH, convicted of Assault and Battery
after riding down a group of saboteurs. Given one years conditional discharge and ordered to
pay £170 costs.

New Forest Terrierman, KEITH COLBERT and hunt supporter ADRIAN BUNGAY, both
given conditional discharges after a hunt saboteur was attacked during a meet of the hunt. At
the time of writing Colbert is wanted by police for an alleged racial attack on a mixed- race
hunt monitor (ironically the new hunt master of the New Forest FH is black - it was he that
appeared in the latest Rover advert, before his bit had to be pulled after he was accused of
drunk driving!).

3 hunt thugs convicted of Affray and Reckless Driving after they had chased sabs around fields
before attacking them.

NIGEL TREVITHICK-WOOD, husband of an Old Surrey and Burstow FH Joint Master,
received a 6 month suspended sentence for punching a sab in the face at a cubbing meet. In a
related incident 1st whipper-in (now huntsman) MARK BYCROFT was also found guilty of
Assault and ordered to do Community Service.

KIETH NOBBS, New Forest FH terrierman and NICK STEVENS (again), South Dorset FH's
kennelman, both fined £200 for Criminal Damage to a sab vehicle. The car, with sabs inside it,
had been overturned at a meet of the South Dorset FH.

1992

CLIFFARD LARTER, a gamekeeper, found guilty of Assault on a Notts sab and causing
ABH. The sab's nose was broken and more serious injury was only prevented by the
intervention of two other saboteurs. Fined £200 and £75 costs.
JOHN FUNNELL, Master of the Surrey Union FH found guilty of ABH on Brixton saboteur.
The sab needed stitches to a serious head wound and was left scarred for life after Funnell rode
his horse over him twice. He was given a 2 month prison sentence, suspended for 2 years.


KENNETH BANKS, foot follower of the Old Surrey and Burstow FH received a 12 month
suspended sentence for punching a saboteur in the groin.

FRANCIS MOMBER (again) found guilty of Criminal Damage to a Portsmouth sab
Landrover. He was given a 1 year conditional discharge and ordered to pay £500 costs and
£175 compensation.

2 followers of the South Dorset FH convicted of Criminal Damage after over-turning a
saboteur's car - with sabs inside it! They were ordered to pay compensation to the car's owner


Hunt supporters ADRIAN BUNGAY (again) and KEITH CORBETT (again), both given
conditional discharges for 1 year after an attack on two Southampton saboteurs. Both men had
to pay costs and compensation to their victims.

Quorn FH employee TIMOTHY TAYLOR found guilty of possessing an unlicensed shotgun.
Fined £100 with £37 costs.

Pro-hunt farmer, MARK FULLER, attacked an Anglia TV reporter out with local saboteurs, at
a cubbing meet of the West Norfolk FH. After assaulting the reporter, FULLER proceeded to
destroy two video cameras and smashed a van's windscreen. He was convicted of Affray and 3
counts of Criminal Damage. He was ordered to pay £1050 in fines, £1463 in compensation and
£150 costs - a total of £2663.

RICHARD and THOMAS CHESHIRE, both hunt marshals, found guilty of Affray and Assault
causing Actual Bodily Harm after they attacked a car containing observers, smashing the
windscreen before overturning the vehicle down an embankment. Two of the passengers were
repeatedly punched and an attempt was made to drag one man through the broken windscreen.
They were fined a total of £2049, including £100 towards the repair of a damaged video
camera.

RICHARD CHESHIRE, (again) and Bicester with Whaddon Chase FH kennelman,
MICHAEL SMITH both sent to prison for 2 months after a sab was pushed in front of a
speeding quad bike. The case was successful because for the first time, sabs had video footage
of the incident.

1993

On the 3rd of April 1993, Tom Worby, a 15 year old saboteur attending his first foxhunt
protest, was crushed under the wheels of the Cambridgeshire FH's hound van in an incident all
too reminiscent of the killing of Mike Hill two years before.
After a successful day's sabbing, the hunt had boxed up and sabs were making their way back
to the meet down a narrow lane. As the hound van came up behind them, revving its engine,
sabs scrambled for the roadside; however Tom's jacket became snagged in the vehicles wing
mirror and he was dragged some distance before he managed to gain a foothold on the van's
running board. Although he banged on the window the van kept going, and when Tom finally
lost his grip, he fell onto the road and under the truck's wheels. His head was crushed by the
rear wheels of the vehicle and he died shortly afterwards.


No action was taken against the driver of the hound van, 53-year-old huntsman ALAN BALL.


WILLIAM HOWELLS, Forestry Commission worker and supporter of the New Forest
Buckhounds found guilty of smashing a video camera belonging to the New Forest Animal
Protection Group. (He actually twisted the camera in his bare hands until the casing snapped!)
Ordered to pay £443 compensation and given a 12 month conditional discharge.


38-year-old KENNETH MANSBRIDGE, a supporter of the Hursley Hambledon Foxhunt,
convicted of Unlawful Wounding on a Green Party researcher, who needed hospital treatment
for serious head wounds after being kicked and beaten by a group of hunt followers 1991.
MANSBRIDGE admitted kicking the victim in the groin and punching him to the ground. (On
the same day, another protester was beaten around the head with a spade, and left needing 10
stitches and a 6 and a half months pregnant woman was hit on the head with half a brick,
needing 4 stitches). MANSBRIDGE was sentenced to 140 hours community service and
ordered to pay costs of £150.

JOHN STRIDE, a rider with the New Forest Buckhounds, found guilty of Assault on a
saboteur (with his whip). Also convicted on a related charge of Criminal Damage. Fined £25
for the assault with a further £25 for damaging a map.

CHRISTOPHER R G NICHOL, hired Steward, admitted Assault on a female Pickering hunt
sab, who suffered cuts and bruises. Fined £370 after admitting in court that he 'lost his temper'.


EDWARD LYCETT-GREEN MFH of the Portman FH, was given a 12 month conditional
discharge for Criminal Damage. Originally 5 hunt followers including LYCETT-GREEN were
charged with various charges of Affray, Violent Disorder, Assault and Theft after an incident
when a blocked-in sab landrover had its windows smashed, a camera was smashed and stolen
and the occupants, including a local reporter, were attacked. Unbelievably, at the trial the CPS
refused to offer any evidence for the Affray and Violent Disorder charges and only Lycett-
Green was convicted.

PATRICA HARRIS, a rider with the Portman FH, convicted of Criminal Damage to sab
property and given a conditional discharge.

ROGER WAKEFIELD, Essex & Farmers Union terrierman, given 160 hours community
service after being found guilty of Violent Disorder and Affray against saboteurs. Hunt
supporter, BRYN CHITTENDEN was also convicted of the same offences and given 120
hours community service.

1994
A supporter of the Cumberland FH attacked a photographer with a spade handle, after the
photographer took the balaclava-wearing thug's picture. He was fined £200 for Assault.


The chairman of the Essex FH and two of his hired stewards paid a total of £1053 in damages
to three L.A.C.S. officials, after the stewards had forcibly removed them from land. The
L.A.C.S. people were pushed around and threatened by the hired thugs, whom Paul Dixey,
Chairman of the hunt, was thought to have organised.

PAUL MARTIN attacked a sab repeatedly at a joint meet of the South Dorset FH and the
Cattistock FH. He pleaded guilty to ABH and was only given a Conditional Discharge, as no
medical evidence was given. During the trail he claimed to have been acting as a steward for
MFH the Hon. Charlotte Morrison. More on Mr Martin later......

ANDREW PEARCE head-butted the camcorder being used by a L.A.C.S. monitor because he
mistook him for a sab. The monitor receives bruises and a swollen lip as a result. PEARCE was
convicted of Assault and given a 2-year conditional discharge.

Bramham Moor FH supporter RAYMOND WALKER attacked saboteurs with a SCYTHE!,
leaving two with head wounds, and a van's windows smashed. He was convicted of Affray
along with two other hunt supporters MR & MRS WINSTANLEY, and Criminal Damage. All
three were given community service orders.

1995

Leading supporter of the Surrey Union FH, NOEL CAHILL, arrested in November after an
attack on saboteurs left one hospitalised. Police searching his home found a death threat ready
to be posted to the HSA Press Officer

ANTHONY KIRKHAM, supporter of the Cheshire FH, received a 12 month prison sentence
(suspended on appeal) for attacking a lone female sab who had gone to get help after the sab
van had been attacked by hunt heavies. When Kirkham caught up with her, he beat and kicked
her to the ground. More on him later...

Amateur Whip of the New Forest FH, JOHN MITCHELL found guilty of Careless Driving
after sandwiching a Southampton saboteur between a van and a landrover, running over the
sab's foot and hitting him with the wing mirror. A police officer witnessed the incident. Fined
£180 and £150 costs and 7 penalty points on his licence.

JOHN EDWARD WEDMORE, terrierman for the Mendip Farmers FH found guilty of 3
counts of Assault after he launched an attack on three L.A.C.S. monitors. (Unbelievably, a
L.A.C.S. monitor's tabard was shown to the court to prove that the monitors could not have
been mistaken for hunt saboteurs - implying that wedmore might have had justification for
attacking sabs!)

1996
Surrey Union FH supporter, GARY JOHN MOORE, pleaded guilty to two charges of
Common Assault and Affray after an unprovoked attack on local saboteurs outside a pub. At
the time of his arrest police had to drag him off his victim, who had already been beaten to the
ground. Even while he was restrained MOORE attempted to kick the saboteur in the head. He
was fined £500

DAVID WOOLLEY, Joint Master of the Cheshire FH, cautioned after making a 2am phone
call to the NW Regional Rep. of the L.A.C.S. He was said to have threatened 'I'm going to kill
you, @#%$!!'

3 supporters of the Vale of Clettwr FH bound over to the keep the peace for a year after an
incident when a sab van was surrounded and the driver dragged out and held upside down.
Terrierman Emyr Davies and supporters JOHN GALMORE JONES AND JOHN GERAINT
OWENS denied Violent Disorder and the Theft of 6 items of sab equipment.


1997

DEAN JOHN RICHARDS a supporter of the Tiverton Staghounds, pleaded guilty to two
counts of Assault against a hunt monitors and a L.A.C.S. sanctuary manager. He hit both
around the face before damaging a camera. He was Fined £50 for each assault plus £25
compensation to each victim and £69 costs.

A Master of the Cotswold Vale Farmers FH cautioned by police after an indecent assault was
made on a young female saboteur.

STEPHEN BARNES, a rider with the South Notts FH, found to have deliberately ridden over
a female saboteur, breaking her elbow and causing severe bruising, in a civil case brought by
the saboteur. She was awarded £2500 compensation. BARNES was apparently 'banned' from
riding with hunt after the incident in 1993.

1998

Pro-hunt farmer, ROBERT VENNER, ordered to pay £4000 compensation to the L.A.C.S.
after he broke an awning and smashed a windscreen at the Leagues stand at the Ô97 Devon
show.

Member of the Vale of Aylesbury FH, GEORGINA BLUNDELL, cautioned by police after a
hunt monitor was ridden into by BLUNDELL's horse.

CLIVE D WENHAM, joint master of the Bolebroke Beagles convicted of Assault and Abusive
Behaviour on a 63 year old woman, when she encountered the beagles on a road. Wenham
coshed the woman over the head with his whip, knocking her to the ground. He was fined
£1000 for the assault and £600 for the abusive behaviour.

ANTHONY KIRKHAM [see 1995] finally jailed for his part in what the Judge described as
the 'cruel beating' of a L.A.C.S. monitor. The man was chased across a field, sprayed in the
face with a liquid, hit over the head with a bottle and repeatedly kicked in the head when he
fell. Kirkham told the man, 'We've got you now; you're dead' as he pulled him to his feet and
ripped a camera worth £1,300 from his neck. Kirkham was jailed for 15 months.
                 Another old face PAUL MARTIN, [see 1994] and his father BERNARD MARTIN convicted
                 of Affray and Paul's uncle COLIN MARTIN convicted of Section 4 after they broke into the
                 back of a sab van and attacked the occupants with spades and wooden staves. A sab
                 photographing the event was dragged from the van and beaten while the family of thugs tried
                 to remove his film.

                 SIMON WILLIAMS, kennelman of the South Devon FH, bound over for a year after being
                 charged with Threatening Behaviour towards a sab (the kind of threatening behaviour that
                 involves a 5 foot metal pole.)

                 The Huntsman of the North Norfolk Harriers, BOYCE KEELING successfully convicted of
                 Assault on a local saboteur, whom he beat with the handle of his whip.

                 Supporter of the Dunston Harriers, PATRICK EVERETT managed to get the hunt banned
                 from one village after he viciously attacked a party of 1 man, 2 women and four children who
                 had stopped to watch the hunt pass by. He was fined £800.

                 1999

                 JOHN WILLIAM BERE and DEAN JOHN RICHARDS (again) jailed for 4 and 6 months
                 respectively after pleading guilty to Assault and Theft. The two Quantock Staghounds
                 supporters had punched L.A.C.S. cameraman Kevin Hill to the ground before stealing his
                 camera. The judge jailed the pair as an example to others saying, 'In my judgement, these are
                 light sentences'.

                 At the time of going to press there are a number of hunt staff and supporters 'helping police
                 with their enquiries' regarding violent attacks on saboteurs, some of whom sustained serious
                 injuries.

                 And you know it isn't over when you read this:

                 "Born to Hunt,
                 Forced to March,
                 Prepared to Fight….."
                 Horse and Hound. July 1999.


                 Want more? There's plenty more I can tell you. ALF's credo: No human or nonhuman shall be
                 harmed.

                 At one time, the huntmaster's were giving monetary prizes to the hunters for every bone they
                 broke of a Hunt Sab. Who are the terrorists? Who's violent?



Tuesday 11/06/2001 11:49:48pm
           Name: BD
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
       Comments: ALF, using terror and subversive tactics only polarizes everyone against you. If you truly
                 wanted to effect positive change you could act in a lawful manner, but what would any of you
                 know about that? I can only assume that causing destruction is your true intent, not saving
                 anyone or anything.
                 Since I believe your intent is to cause great harm on anyone opposed to you, I am very
                 reluctant to post my name or e-mail. Good day.

                    ***Anonymous: There are people, many people, who are fighting for the rights of animals in a
                    lawful manner. The movement has gained a great deal of momentum since the 70's, but there
                    hasn't really been much change in the last three decades. Animal welfare has had great impact,
                    however the rights movement is something else altogether. The intent of liberationists is to free
                    animals who are being tortured and abused NOW. I believe the purpose of the destruction of
                    property is to keep the abusers from 'restocking' the 'inventory' tomorrow. If lab animals are
                    rescued one night, they could easily be replaced with new ones the next day. What would be
                    the logical way to keep this from happening? Destroy the mechanisms which bring this pain,
                    torture and death to these animals. The next day, there would be no need for 'restocking.' If the
                    sole intent is destruction, would someone please see me about my neighbors car? It's an ugly,
                    oil burning piece of sh*t! Get it?


                    As for being reluctant to post your name and email address, there is nothing to fear from
                    anyone on this board. ALF's credo is no human or nonhuman shall be harmed. Ask Trapper
                    Mark, he's been posting here for several months.


Tuesday 11/06/2001 6:51:16pm
           Name: Paula
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: It's all very well to talk about our tactics being wrong if you are not an animal lover, but when
                  you are an animal lover, and you are watching your own government whitewash reports and
                  evidence of animal cruelty there seems to be little else left but to bring the knowledge to the
                  public(which is time consuming and does not help those animals suffering now) and to get
                  those animals out of the abusive situations now, and to try and at least prevent more animal
                  abuse by rendering those involved in abusing animals bankrupt.


                    Infact, it has been demonstrated time and time again throughout history that when there is a
                    breakdown in communication between government and the people, especially after the
                    government have not listened to or acted on genuine concerns made by the people, that
                    violence has often been the result.

                    To those who criticize the ALF, what would you do if your child or somebody you cared about
                    was beat up, and the law refused to act even if after much campaigning, and after evidence was
                    presented to the government,the person you loved still didn't get justice? I'm sure you would
                    feel there is no other option but to take the law into your own hands.
                    In addition to this, some people who are anti-animal rights, who have posted on this forum
                    have said that they own and love their pets, and would become violent if anybody ever hurt
                    them. So in their haste to point that out, they have shown that they are they far more dangerous
                    than the ALF, since one policy of the ALF is to never take an animal or human life.




Tuesday 11/06/2001 6:49:46pm
           Name: The Cat
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: Hi Doug,

                    I don't really understand your post. I have been in this movement for many years and have yet
                    to come across any individual who would commit violence upon another party. Loving animals
                    and being committed to animal rights is entirely different. Loving animals is acceptable to most
                    of society, animal rights is not. Humans see themselves as superior not equal, that is how they
                    justify the needless deaths of animals, animals serve humans, just read some of the post on this
                    website. Speaking nicely to the powers that be, will not bring about change, this has been seen
                    in human history, when dialogue fails or is ignored some people feel frustrated and resort to
                    violent action. There are many who continue to write letters, no doubt filed in bins, or who sign
                    petitions, probably used to prop up bureaucratic doors. Animal experiments have been
                    documented time and time again to harm humans and yet nothing changes and why because
                    there is too much money in this industry. People make money out of animals and they do not
                    want to see the end of their salaries, mortgages and large cars. Neither have I seen any violence
                    against people from the movement, maybe violence against property but property does not
                    bleed, property is insured. Many in the movement have been violated by the police and just



Tuesday 11/06/2001 5:58:11pm
           Name: The Cat
          E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: "The fight is not for us, not for our personal wants and needs. It is about every animal that has
                  ever suffered and died in the vivisection laboratories and for every animal that will suffer and
                  die in those same laboratories unless we end this evil business now. The soul of the tortured
                  dead cry out for justice, the cry of the living for freedom. We can create that freedom. The
                  animals have no one but us and we will not fail them" This is a message sent by Barry Horne
                  during his last hunger strike from prison. Rest in peace Barry you will be remembered.




Tuesday 11/06/2001 5:32:29pm
           Name: Al
          E-Mail: al@aol.com
 Homepage URL:
        Location: CAl
       Comments: What a bunch of ignorant, ugly, fuckheads.

                     If you weren't all so fat, ugly, and protein deprived you might become human!

                     algorALF response: How can we argue with such eloquence?



Tuesday 11/06/2001 4:54:58pm
           Name: Doug
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location: Washington
      Comments: I am an animal lover but I have to strongly disagree with your methods. You give a bad name
                  to this cause. Especially in light of the problems with terrorists it is time to change your tactics.
                  This will only serve to hurt and not help the cause of supporting animals. It seems many in this
                  organization simply enjoy destruction. There is too much hate in this group. It overshadows
                  any care or love for those who share the earth with us.ALF response: Paula and the Cat
                  answered this well.


Tuesday 11/06/2001 3:57:46pm
           Name:
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: ALF, using terror and subversive tactics only polarizes everyone against you. If you truly
                  wanted to effect positive change you could act in a lawful manner, but what would any of you
                  know about that? I can only assume that causing destruction is your true intent, not saving
                  anyone or anything.
                  Since I believe your intent is to cause great harm on anyone opposed to you, I am very
                  reluctant to post my name or e-mail. Good day.ALF response: You might be less concerned if
                  you knew our credo prohibits harming any living creature. If I wanted to attack folks who were
                  against my beliefs, I wouldn't have to go across the street. Whereever you are, it's too far.
                  Whatever your attitude, I'm not surprised or angry.



Tuesday 11/06/2001 4:46:24am
           Name: Ali J
          E-Mail: ganja@ali.tf
 Homepage URL:
        Location: Leicester
      Comments: I wish to voice my support for ALL the actions of Barry Horne on this sad day. I myself agree
                  with & would be willing to take part in any activity which would strike at any person or
                  persons who inflict harm on animals whatever the reason.

                     DEATH is too good for these people.



Tuesday 11/06/2001 3:11:26am
         Name:     Nimsy Y. Colón Rodríguez
        E-Mail:    rougeatre@hotmail.com
 Homepage URL:
      Location:    Puerto Rico
     Comments:     Felicito a todos los que estan involucrados en esta causa y defienden los derechos de los
                   animales. Me gustaría pertenecer a alguna asociación a favor de los derechos de los animales.
                   Para mí los animales son mi vida. Aún lucho por cambiar por completo mi dieta pero me críe
                   en una familia en la cual siempre se come carne y sé que esto no es una excusa pero seguiré
                   luchando hasta lograr el cambio. Muchas felicidades por su excelente página.




Tuesday 11/06/2001 0:05:45am
           Name: BD
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments:

                   Brian,

                   Did you inquire within the university? I'm sure you could find out. I don't know that
                   universities keep animal experimentation 'top secret.' I would think it to be relatively easy to
                   find out. Which university are you referring to?



Monday 11/05/2001 9:02:03pm
          Name: Brian
         E-Mail: spazz@uswest.net
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: ALF responder: I am attending a university locally and had heard some rumors that animals
                 were being used for experiments. Do you have any info of how I could find if these rumors
                 were factual? ThankxALF responder: Locally where? I live in the UK, but others live in other
                 countries. We all use the same email. Animals are being used for experiments everywhere,
                 everyday.


Monday 11/05/2001 5:58:41pm
          Name: The Cat
         E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: Hi all,

                   Just received the news that Barry Horne the UK animal activist who received an 18 year prison
                   sentence for his "extremist" views has died in hospital from liver failure. Barry resumed his
                   hunger strike because of the Government's handling of foot and mouth in UK.
Monday 11/05/2001 4:45:12pm
          Name: mark
         E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: Yeah Rainbow, lol, help the (my) economy, ruin a coat!



Monday 11/05/2001 0:32:25am
          Name: anti-speciesist
         E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
       Location:
     Comments: hope everyone is as ok as possible. greetings :o) etc etc ):o ):o



Sunday 11/04/2001 10:25:33pm
           Name: Rainbow
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
      Comments: Where are the real juicy bits like how some @#%$! got paint chucked over her coat and like
                  what is the best way to mess up a coat without it being to obviousALF response: If you ruin a
                  coat without changing the mind of the wearer, they may buy another. We hope animal rights
                  activists are smarter than that.



Friday 11/02/2001 8:10:46pm
            Name: Karin Morrison
           E-Mail: LadeSouza@aol.com
 Homepage URL: http://www.fortunecity.com/business/ceo/254/index.htm
         Location: Oklahoma
       Comments: Hi

                   I was told that a letter of mine would be posted in the Guestbook. I was unable to locate it.

                   I read some of the old ones other people wrote and find them very interresting. I do wish so
                   very much, that more people would fight to protect ALL animals. It seems, that dogs and cats
                   are left to the mercy of animal shelters, that continue to kill them by the millions, yet many
                   members of animal organizations make people believe that the pet--overpopulation is soon
                   over. I don't see how. The adoption of uwanted pets from one owner to another only causes
                   much trauma and stress to those unwanted pets. Breeding continues and puppy--mills are
                   growing in numbers. What is going on? Can anyone tell me WHY we shout NO--KILL, when
                   there is really no end in sight?ALF response: It is three pages back, dated 10/31 at 2:46. We
                   didn't know your name, so we used "LS". By the way, your homepage URL is a nice link.
                   Thanks.
Friday 11/02/2001 5:02:24pm
            Name: mark
           E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
 Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: ALF RESPONDER,,,strike the first sentence then, sometimes you just get tired of the lies and
                   ignornance though you know!ALF responder: I agree. It is precisely because both sides get
                   dramatic that we should to reduce conversation to pure logic like Dr. Spock (the vulcan, not
                   the baby doc).



Friday 11/02/2001 2:51:18pm
            Name: Andrew Arnold
           E-Mail: A.J.Arnold@newcastle.ac.uk
 Homepage URL:
         Location: UK
       Comments: I am a student at university and I have been given the task of
                   reporting on the contoversial Krebs experiment in England which
                   involves the culling of badgers. I thought that you would have
                   something about this experiment on your website seeing as it is a very
                   controversial issue but I have failed to fine anything.
                   I was wondering if you could give me your views on this matter in
                   order to help me gain a more balanced picture of the arguments for and
                   against this project.
                   Thanks very much,
                   Andrew



Friday 11/02/2001 1:40:02pm
            Name: mark
           E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
 Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Frank you are an idiot. She is in jail because she held the Judge and Court in contempt. Sure,
                   she excercised her right of free speech, and the judge excercised his/her right too. Contempt is
                   a crime in all fifty states. As for being shot in the face by rubber bullets. LOL, that's a crock, if
                   that were true the "victims" would most likely be dead (depending on range of course). For any
                   of this to have happened leads me to believe your so called "peaceful" protest was far from
                   that.
                   BD, I had all the nice little goodies to send you, but in light of your last post you can kiss my
                   coyote trapping ass and find it for your self.ALF response: All this could have been said
                   without name-calling of other posters. To say that it is childish is an insult to children
                   everywhere. A dozen warnings is more than enough. Mice learn mazes more quickly.




Friday 11/02/2001 11:45:09am
            Name: BD
        E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
      Location:
     Comments:

                  I'm still looking for that story by the AP on the number of mink starved and found dead from
                  exposure in the latest mink release in Iowa. Can't find those figures anywhere. Can anyone help
                  me with this? Mark doesn't seem to remember how to look it up.

                  Brian: You could try emailing PETA and marking it "To the attention of: Ingrid Newkirk". It
                  may not get to her, but it's worth a try.



Friday 11/02/2001 4:14:57am
            Name: Brian
           E-Mail: spazz@uswest.net
 Homepage URL:
         Location: Montana
       Comments: Does anyone know how to contact Ingid Newkirk? I want to thank her for opening my eyes
                   through the novel FREE THE ANIMALS>


Friday 11/02/2001 0:05:57am
            Name: Alyce
           E-Mail: alyce@extremezone.com
 Homepage URL:
         Location: usa
       Comments: Mark,

                  I'm with you one pet owner responsibility. I am from a rural area, where strays are not a large
                  problem, dogs are usually the worst. They'll get into calves, lambs and chickens and raise holy
                  hell. We usual euthanase those rancher style:)

                  *** Leave it to Meriwether to do something funky.. Why can't you just catch them and give
                  them a good home?
                  BTW..Are you taking good care of your cows? I hear it is cold up your way...



Thursday 11/01/2001 7:53:45pm
           Name: meriwether
          E-Mail: meriwether29@hotmail.com
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: Mark,

                  I'm with you one pet owner responsibility. I am from a rural area, where strays are not a large
                  problem, dogs are usually the worst. They'll get into calves, lambs and chickens and raise holy
                  hell. We usual euthanase those rancher style:)
Thursday 11/01/2001 7:41:38am
           Name: florence
          E-Mail: floincontrol@hotmail.com
 Homepage URL: http://msn.com
        Location: volentary human extinction movement
      Comments:



Thursday 11/01/2001 0:25:19am
           Name: BD
          E-Mail:
 Homepage URL:
        Location:
      Comments: Thanks for the information, Frank. I will be sure to pass it on to everyone I know. Have you
                  emailed the people in the UK regarding this information? I think the judge would appreciate
                  knowing these feelings are WORLDWIDE. Keep up the good work.



Wednesday 10/31/2001 11:17:31pm
          Name: Frank
         E-Mail: Narfus682326109
 Homepage URL: http://www.welovesoy.com/shac/index.html
       Location: Arkansas
     Comments: as alot of you already know there was a protest this weekend in little rock arkansas for stephens
                 inc. we did exactly what we came to do.
                 unfortunately, in the process there have been 26 arrests, 12 people are still in jail.
                 one of the 12 is an activist/political prisoner by the name of whitney battle. she was given 10
                 days in jail for expressing herself to the judge by giving him the finger. the political prisoners
                 have been threatened with being chained to beds, and put in isolation to get pepper sprayed.

                    we need your help.
                    go to www.welovesoy.com/shac.index.html for phone numbers to the d.a., the judge that made
                    this ruling and the jail that is holding these political prisoners.
                    everybody pleaded not guilty at the trial and the judge told them that is not an option and
                    rearrested everybody.
                    please call and voice your opinion, if the judge wont talk to you leave a message stating where
                    you are from so he knows this is worldwide.
                    if you have received this message and are on mailing lists, please forward the info. we need
                    help. please. get the information to as many people as possible, take whatever action this
                    moves you to take.
                    i personally am being arraigned on monday, i was unable to go with the rest of the people due
                    to my injuries that day by the police. they could not keep me on site to be retained. one girl got
                    a broken wrist and medical attention was debied, others were shot in the face with rubber
                    bullets and pepper pellets. one person was shot in the eye with a pepper pellet.

                    this is just the beginning.
                    thank you for everything you will be doing for us.
                    frank
                    animal liberation is our liberation
Wednesday 10/31/2001 7:48:39pm
            Name: Mark
           E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: LadeSouza, an attempt was made to adopt the animals out. The method of Euthanization was the
                   accepted method allowed by Federal and State Laws. There was no torture, there was no murder,
                   there was quite simply the euthanization of unwanted animals. I say that because if anyone wanted
                   them, they could have adopted them. I think perhaps your goal should be to educate pet owners to
                   be responsible so that there aren't so many strays! There is where your crime lays, in irresponsible
                   pet ownership!



Wednesday 10/31/2001 2:46:42pm
            Name: LS
           E-Mail: LadeSouza@aol.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: The Shelbyville Humane Society KILLED the remaining dogs, on the owners property. It was a
                   massacrer. Animals were tortured and traumatized. I was told that
                   some of them escaped and were taken out of State. I want to thank these individuals from the
                   bottom of my heart!

                      The Humane Society also took all the FARM animals.

                      In case anyone thinks that this was done for the animals welfare, I have a video tape,
                      which shows perfectly healthy, happy animals and which I took myself and would be glad to send
                      to whoever who would like to see it.

                      I had hoped someone would listen .... someone would care, someone would stop the murder of
                      innocent animals!

                      NO--KILL Society??? Bahamba!

                      These animals had names, were loved and used to be strays. Someone took them in, cared for
                      them ... loved them as good as they could ....

                      Any true Humane Society would have helped the people, taught them ... gave them
                      the needed supervision, because obviously they were overburdened, do to the fact that
                      Shelbyville or Bedford County has no shelter.

                      I call this MURDER in the first degree!

                      Oh well, nothing surprises me in this animal rights movement any longer.

                      What was done in Tennessee was a crime .... murder, to satisfy certain peoples greed.

                      The case will be taken to Federal Court, as I was told.
Wednesday 10/31/2001 12:04:26am
            Name: mark
           E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: No BD you get your facts straight and read that again. Yep, it was from this year, the AP wire
                   story I read is pretty close to that which you posted, and yes starvation exposure in Sept in IOWA
                   is entirely possible for anything that is accustomed to living in shelter and a controlled
                   environment. You forget BD, that as a journalist working for a newspaper, I don't have to get
                   information from a trapping board, I have access to both AP and UPI news services. Now pardon
                   the expression but would you like your Crow in BBQ sauce or with just a little salt.




Wednesday 10/31/2001 11:19:35am
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments:
                   BTW, Brian Carnell is the owner of an anti-animal rights website/discussion group.

                         If anyone would like to discuss the war/terrorist attacks, this is a good website to post on:
                         www.cnn.com



Wednesday 10/31/2001 9:40:40am
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: posted 10-29-2001 07:29 PM
                   --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                   Brian Carnell
                   Tuesday, September 19, 2000 | Reply | New Topic

                         --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                         Last week the Animal Liberation Front took credit for releasing more than 14,000 or so mink
                         from a fur farm in Iowa -- the largest mink release to date in the United States by the group. A
                         follow-up on the story by the Associated Press reports that about one-third of the animals have
                         been returned, but the mink are still turning up, many of the dead from exposure and starvation
                         (the mink don't know how to survive in the wild).

                         Mills County Sheriff Mack Taylor, under whose jurisdiction the mink release falls, reports that he
                         is working with the FBI to identify the perpetrators, though an FBI spokesman quoted by the AP
                         story notes that finding those responsible for ALF attacks is extremely difficult.
                      Taylor stated the obvious in the story, telling the AP that ALF "spokesman" David Barbarash,
                      who sent the press a release about the mink release and another ALF action in Iowa, is, in the AP's
                      words, "a prime target for charges of conspiracy to commit a crime." Barbarash previously spent
                      four months in jail in 1994 for releasing cats at a laboratory at the University of Alberta.
                      Barbarash claims he does not take part in the ALF acts, but rather just passes along the
                      anonymous information that is sent to him by the activists.

                      Source:

                      Fallout continues from mink release in northeast Iowa. The Associated Press, September 18,
                      2000.

                      ****I believe this is the story Mark is referring to. Please take note of the date! He got this
                      information on the trapping forum he frequents. Mark, if you're going to claim to get a newswire
                      from the AP and if you're going to claim to talk to the Sheriff about an investigation, could you at
                      least make sure we're on the same YEAR! You were referring to one of the previous posts on the
                      ALF board about the Jewell Fur Farm mink release, OF THIS YEAR! Now, talk about half truths!
                      Get your facts straight!

                      About this story I just posted...Does anyone else find it curious that mink died of starvation and

                      I tell you, animal users/abusers will say anything to get 'sympathy' from ignorant folks.


Wednesday 10/31/2001 4:32:41am
            Name: mark
           E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: No ALF RESPONDER, I am responding to something she said two or three pages back. Read
                   everything before saying anything.
                   As for the data, this came off the wire this morning. I called the sheriff from that region and he
                   had the bodies of "X" number of mink died from exposure and starvation, and guess what, the
                   figures add up (give or take a dozen). BD, this is a rights board, and in "your" minds eye, I should
                   think HUMAN rights are part of that. After all, is that not YOUR position on things???? Do you
                   not believe animals equal to humans, thus the rights and this board should apply in the same way.
                   Personally I feel........well we all know how I feel about it, and no I won't give a score thus far this
                   season, but let me just say the fur shed is filling quickly.




Tuesday 10/30/2001 11:31:14pm
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments:

                      Is this an animal rights/liberation guestbook? I'm sure there are other forums for non-animal
                      related topics.
         Comments:




                      BTW, did anyone hear about the protest agains Stephens Corp./HLS in Arkansas? The police
                      used tear gas and rubber bullets on the protesters. What the hell is that all about?



Tuesday 10/30/2001 10:23:47pm
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Tell you what Paula, why don't you just go over there then, lol, and be treated like any of their
                    ladies?



Tuesday 10/30/2001 9:01:56pm
             Name: Paula
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Mark

                      lol, lol, lol. ROFLOL.

                      The whole thing stinks of hypocrisy, and especially that f_ _ _ K_R Tony Blair.ALF response:
                      Quit whining when this waste of space gets deleted.


Tuesday 10/30/2001 8:16:58pm
             Name: Mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: PAULA HOW DARE YOU SAY SUCH A THING! The people we Americans are killing are
                    NOT innocent by any means. To say what you have said would compare to PETA's recent
                    statements concerning terrorism and "pro use". It's pure Bullshit and you know it.ALF response:
                    You must be responding to something that is not in this guestbook.



Tuesday 10/30/2001 8:14:57pm
             Name: Alec
            E-Mail: alec@canineworld.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: This is one of the greatest sites I´ve ever been, your philosophy is great and I will be visiting you
                    on a daily basis
                    Thanks for beeing there for animals
                    Regards
                    Alec
Tuesday 10/30/2001 8:14:41pm
             Name: Mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: ALF RESPONDER I beg to differ with you on the mink. The numbers are in, straight from the
                    AP wire. 1/3 of the mink released in IOWA were returned to their rightful owner, the other 2/3s
                    (with the exception of a few) have turned up dead due to starvation and exposure. Much more
                    cruel deaths than the ones that awaited them I should think!ALF response: There is conflicting
                    data on this, as you are aware.



Tuesday 10/30/2001 1:25:00am
             Name: friends..&andantispeciesist
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: just wanted to drop in with hope and love for justice. all strength to all of you other
                    ethicalvegans:o)))))))!!!!!



Monday 10/29/2001 2:07:32pm
            Name: Elly
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location: KS
       Comments: There are different ways to handle this. You need to fight legally. Sure, you let some pigs loose.
                   You've won a battle, but not the war.ALF response: No wars are won without winning some
                   battles.


Monday 10/29/2001 2:42:41am
            Name: LINDA LINSLEY
           E-Mail: lindalinslye@yahoo.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: found your website after checking out signs all over a house in Okemos, MI

                      your info doesn't sound like theirs, nor do your attitudes

                      am on someone else's computer who knows what they are doing,,,,so I may never find this site on
                      my own. o well



Sunday 10/28/2001 1:40:41pm
             Name: vegimite
           E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: this is the best tiem to start telling evevryone to avoid eating meat, epecially ritual killed meat like
                   halal meat , which is the diet of the terrorist osma bin laden. lets all of us convince ppl hahal meat
                   aint cruelty frre for the animal, and kick religious beliefs like these out of the planet. veggi power
                   4 ever



Sunday 10/28/2001 5:48:08am
             Name: blue dolphin
           E-Mail: shanti_ara@hotmail.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location: Santa Cruz, California
        Comments: Ethical Vegans Rule !!!



Friday 10/26/2001 11:11:34pm
              Name: Paula
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Hi Kirsty

                     Well i am not at all surprised that the father of George Bush is "Bullying" a poorer nation, infact,
                     his son is at it right now, except he's bullying several poorer nations. Is there an internet site I can
                     look at to check this out further? Is he being taken seriously? I doubt that he will have his way
                     because the International fund for animal welfare and the WWF are unlikely to allow such an
                     atrocity, especially if the lions are endangered as you said.
                     However, I wouldn't sit back and do nothing about it either, as right now the American people(not
                     all of them of course) are unklikely to act, as their minds are on other things, such as supporting
                     the killing of other innocents.



Friday 10/26/2001 5:59:43pm
              Name: The Dornochian
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Dornoch Slaughter House to re-open...avoid Dornoch in the Highlands of Scotland...tell your
                     friends, tell your family, tell everyone...keep the work up


Friday 10/26/2001 4:51:01pm
              Name: Curious
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
           Location: Iowa
         Comments: Yesterday I asked you if you were going to release all the cattle and hogs. You said "Only if we
                   can find good homes for them." Did you find good homes for the mink and birds you just released
                   in Iowa or are they left to fend for themselves and starve to death? Just curious.ALF response:
                   First, almost all animals would rather be free then to be caged. And that would be true even if they
                   were not going to die in the cages, anyway. But of course, they were. Secondly, minks and birds
                   can survive well when freed. Millions of years of evolution aren't erased by a few years of being
                   caged.



Friday 10/26/2001 8:03:28am
              Name: Frank Garrett
            E-Mail: fmg03021970@yahoo.com
   Homepage URL:
           Location: Joliet, IL
         Comments: A thouhgt I'd had: what if vegetarians were to move to a cattle state like Montana in large
                     numebers? Would it not be possible to take over the state legislature and make the killing of
                     animals illegal? There are many states with a small population where an influx of vegetarians
                     could change the political makeup. This could even put two vegans in the Senate. This is
                     something I would be willing to move for.ALF response: Great idea. We should all pass this idea
                     on to large organizations such as PETA.



Friday 10/26/2001 0:41:10am
              Name: rachel
            E-Mail: rrogers7@hotmail.com
   Homepage URL:
           Location: san francisco california
         Comments: i have always been interested in protecting animals. i will be graduating from the new college of
                     california in san francisco in may with a ba in humanities with an emphsis on ecology and
                     economics with a minor in movement studies. i have recently become involved with organizations
                     dedicated to the protection of animal rights such as direct animal rights coalition and food and
                     social justice in sf. i would like to get into endangered speices protection and rehabilitation work.
                     i would actually like to go abroad to do this.
                     i send this email in hopes that the appropiate person could point me in the right direction. i really
                     thanks so much!

                      ciao,
                      rachel



Thursday 10/25/2001 10:18:08pm
             Name: Curious
            E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
          Location: Iowa
        Comments: Just curious. Does anyone in your group
                    wear leather shoes? Are you going to release all the cattle and hogs too?ALF response: short
                    answer--no, no.
         Comments:


                      Detailed answer: Some folks assume that it is better to kill everything than to be hypocritical and
                      kill one thing and save another. This is very flawed logic. If someone saves an animal we are
                      greatful. We don't condemn that person for not throwing away his leather shoes. Nobody is
                      perfect.
                      Regarding releasing cattle and hogs: Only if we can find good homes for them.



Thursday 10/25/2001 6:26:17pm
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
  Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: To the moron who posted me about my mail on bullfighting. If you visit a cruelty free site what do
                    you expect to read. I have no problem with those who wish for an alternative sexual lifestyle,
                    clearly from your comments you are homophobic, look in the dictionary if you don't understand
                    the word. Bullfighting like hunting revolts me and most other caring human beings, it caters to the
                    most basic human instincts to get a thrill out of torturing and killing a vulnerable species, this is
                    why it is called a "sport", to allow people like you to get their kicks. What do you do for kicks, I
                    can well imagine.


Thursday 10/25/2001 12:00:47am
             Name: kirsty
            E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
          Location: africa
        Comments: i believe americans should be aware that george bush senior is trying to bully the botswana
                    goverment into lifting the ban on lion hunting.this old man belongs to a group called the
                    international safari club.when you next see your president in the newspaper or on television,think
                    of this,his father is bullying a poor african country,so that he can come here and destroy the last
                    lions left in africa.we have only 15 000 lions left.this relegates lions to the endangerd list. im sure
                    your bush family doesnt care.i hope this will be taken into account when next you vote,more info
                    can be found in the getaway issue sept,pg35 ,2001.soth african magazine.all animals need help.




Wednesday 10/24/2001 2:27:07pm
            Name: J Fusco
           E-Mail: montanaswolf@hotmail.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location: Carmel, NY
       Comments: Until there are no more cages



Tuesday 10/23/2001 7:08:30pm
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
         Comments: Hi all,

                     Just back from a successful trip to Portugal. Bullfighting is still being promoted as a "spectacle"
                     although the bull is not killed in the arena, it is slaughtered later, out of sight, could this be an
                     admission of guilt..I am happy to report that tourists are disgusted with this "attraction". I was
                     horrified to see that bullfighting is on television, many young Portuguese children are encouraged
                     to watch this revolting "sport". Please write to the Portugal Tourist Industry to register your
                     disgust. BD get in touch, my post keeps coming back.




Tuesday 10/23/2001 12:28:52am
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments:

                     Hi Elly:

                     Personally, I don't think animals should be freed unless A) they are able to care for themselves in
                     the wild or B) suitable homes have been found for them.

                     For instance, lab animals should have good homes awaiting them after being liberated.

                     Duck, geese, mink, etc. should be able to survive being freed into the wild.



Tuesday 10/23/2001 3:27:53am
             Name: Ali Mooney
            E-Mail: alimooney@hotmail.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location: Leicester
        Comments: I wish to voice my support for all the activities on which the ALF partakes; keep at it guys!



Monday 10/22/2001 4:24:45pm
            Name: ALF
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Here's some more news about animals being freed from their death chambers.

                     North American Animal Liberation Front Press Office
                     Contact: David Barbarash, 250-703-6312

                     Animal Liberation Front Target Iowa Animal Exploiters
                     2,000 Mink Released from Jewell Fur Farm
                     162 Pigeons, Ducks, and Geese Rescued from Glenwood Facility
IOWA - This week the underground Animal Liberation Front has targeted two animal exploitation
facilities in the midwest state of Iowa, releasing thousands of mink from a fur farm and rescuing
numerous birds from an animal research breeder. Both places have been previously targeted by
the A.L.F.
This morning, in two separate Communiques sent to the A.L.F. Press Office, A.L.F. activists
claimed responsibility for both actions.
Although both occurred in the same state within three days of each other, it remains unclear
whether the same A.L.F. cell is responsible for both actions.
Isebrand Fur Farm, Jewell, IA
In the late hours of Oct. 16, 2001, the A.L.F. entered an unnamed fur farm on Tollman Rd. in
Jewell, Iowa, and opened all the mink cages, releasing an estimated 2000 mink into the
surrounding area. Press Office records show that this fur farm is Isebrand Fur Farm, which was
targeted previously by A.L.F. activists two years ago on Aug. 21, 1998, when 3000 mink were
released. This most recent action was the 70th time animals have been released from a fur farm in
North America since the campaign against fur farms began over six years ago.

The A.L.F. activists state in their Communique that they will be "tearing
up fences, breaking down walls, and opening cages to free the animals" until the animals' "blood
stops spilling." The full text of the Communique follows below.
Double T Farms, Glenwood, IA
In the early morning hours of Oct. 18, 2001, the A.L.F. entered several sheds at Double T Farms
in Glenwood, Iowa (21655 Barrus Rd.) and cut the wire mesh fencing to pens holding pigeons,
ducks, and geese, releasing an estimated 162 birds. The activists also state that the sheds were
damaged or destroyed. This is the second time A.L.F. activists have targeted Double T Farms - on
Sept. 09, 2000, A.L.F. activists rescued and released 215 pigeons.

Double T Farms breeds various species of birds for use in animal experimentation - "a cruel and
senseless death at the hands of vivisectors," state the A.L.F. The activists further say that "there
will be further visits until (the) operation is shut down." The full text of the Communique follows
below.
Text of Isebrand Communique
The Animal Liberation Front is claiming responsibility for the liberation of 2000 mink from a fur
farm in Jewell, IA (Tollman Rd.) in the late hours of October 16th, 2001. Every animal was
released.
Fences surrounding the farm were cut away, every cage opened, and 2000 mink ran to freedom.
These animals were kept 3 and 4 to a small wire mesh cage. Their rescue came at the final hour,
only a month from a violent death in the pelting season.
Captive bred mink are closely related to their wild ancestors, and have been shown to retain
survival instincts when released - ensuring these liberated prisoners will live and thrive. The fur
industry will move to condemn this action, using misleading half-truths and boldface lies.

They point their fingers with blood stained hands. There is no defensible case for the taking of
innocent life. Furthermore, there is no defensible argument against militant intervention to prevent
this atrocity. When mink are no longer kept 4 to a small wire cage, when chickens are no longer
kept packed in battery cages, when we stop calling dead animals food, when the blood stops
spilling - these actions outside the law will no longer be needed. Until then, we will be tearing up
fences, breaking down walls, and opening cages to free the animals. Terrorism against non-human
animals will be met with liberation.
In this struggle for life against greed, compassion over sadism, our only recourse is to ignore laws
and risk our freedom to save lives. Were you in a cage, whose side would you be on?
                      Text of Double T Farms Communique
                      In the early morning hours of October 18, 2001, the Animal Liberation Front visited Double T
                      Farms (21655 Barrus Rd., Glenwood, Iowa.), a breeder of birds for vivisection.
                      We located the pigeon shed, and cut through the wire mesh perimeter. 62 pigeons were found and
                      released. These pigeons were destined for a cruel and senseless death at the hands of vivisectors.
                      All possible nesting boxes were emptied, and breeder tags were removed from each bird.

                      The shed was also damaged.
                      A second aviary was containing ducks and geese was located, and 50 yards of netting cut away,
                      allowing approximately 50 birds held captive
                      within to escape.
                      A third aviary holding approximately 50 geese was similarly ripped apart, and those geese who
                      did not immediately take flight were picked up and taken outside.
                      Approximately 162 birds were released.
                      This is the A.L.F.'s second visit to Double T Farms , and there will be further visits until Ted



Monday 10/22/2001 4:12:33pm
            Name: Elly
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location: Kansas
       Comments: It's all fine to think that animals should be treated better, and I agree with that, but sometimes ALF
                   causes damage to places where the animals are treated very well. Not all places pack their animals
                   into such small places that they can't turn around, but I imagine some do. You shouldn't just run
                   around and let any animal free that you want to. Like when ALF went to a slaughterhouse and let
                   loose all of those pigs, there were pigs running around for a long time. Don't you think that those
                   animals died anyway? They weren't being fed by their farmers and some of them were hit by cars.
                   Now you have made it so that they die anyway, and now people can't eat them anyway. Vultures,
                   coyotes, bobcats, etc. get them. I'm probably not going to change your mind, but just think about
                   it. You're not saving any of them.ALF response: You are correct. Each situation has to be
                   considered individually. There should be no generalizations such as "all animals should be free".
                   For example--I won't let my dog free. ALF preaches thinking, but not everyone claiming to be
                   ALF does that.




Sunday 10/21/2001 0:59:55am
             Name: mark
           E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Where is your sense of humor Paula, lol. I knew they would delete my post because of my slam on
                    PETA and HSUS, but then some folks just can't stand the truth. I see they put yours back though,
                    lol.



Sunday 10/21/2001 0:38:16am
           Name: Paula
          E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
        Location:
       Comments: Okay ALF

                      What are you doing?

                      Why did you take away my posts, and Marks as well after he went to all that effort?

                      You lot are seriously getting on my nerves. What the hell is wrong with you?
                      You free animals but you can't let me post what I want, and there was nothing wrong with it. And
                      then you don't answer me.

                      weebler was right, I don't know what is happening to you people.



Sunday 10/21/2001 0:30:45am
             Name: Paula
           E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Yes it is all our responsibility Mark, but it is the government who decides that the intensive
                    farming of animals is legal, and animal rights campaigners have taken it on themselves to
                    campaign for an end to factory farming. Of course if we had left them alone in the first place then
                    our responsibilities to them now would be entirely different.

                      Because we believe that animals have rights, we have to take our campaigning a step further than
                      welfare. And that money isn't going to come from the government is it? What I should have said
                      Mark was that it is up to the government to lay down stricter animal welfare laws.


                      And what I said was not out of line at all, the ALF are just being moody and no doubt they will
                      not answer me either.
                      They have taken away my right to free speech!!!!


Saturday 10/20/2001 3:44:02pm
             Name: vegimite
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
         Comments: the events in america have truly been awful, but pls lets us not forget aniamsl are still sufferuing
                     evevryday and we must continue to liberate them as much as possible.



Saturday 10/20/2001 2:16:24pm
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
         Comments: While this "mallard" operation doesn't exactly fit the definition of canned hunting, I do have to
                    agree that (to me anyway) it violates "fair chase". The only difference between these guys going
                    to the Super Market to buy ducks and what their doing is the fact that they have to clean their own
                    birds. This is one of the things that gives "my side" of the issues a "black eye" (or bad name if you
                    will)and I don't agree with it. However it is legal, and unless some legislation is introduced to stop
                    it, it won't be stopped, and then it is highly doubtful. The type of guy who buys a hunt like this is
                    typical of someone who has more money than he knows what to do with. It is the conception of
                    both sides that "money" is the corrupting factor. ARAs believe that to be true with my side only,
                    while I believe it to be to both sides. Yours because it is not spent on animal welfare, mine
                    because it goes to buy canned hunting and hunts such as these. Keep in mind (ALF Responder)
                    when I refer to this I am speaking of HSUS and PETA or any other AR entity that solicits
                    donations. I am also speaking of those entitys that solicit money for a "sure thing" hunt. In both
                    cases, it is based on greed, regardless of what "your" arguments may be. Folks who would invest



Saturday 10/20/2001 12:32:27am
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
         Comments:

                      Hi Luc, try this site:

                      http://www.vegsource.com/recipe/

                      They have over 10,000 recipes. Good luck.



Saturday 10/20/2001 9:48:25am
             Name: Luc
            E-Mail: pukus@skunkbox.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location: Calgary, Canada
         Comments: HI, i think this site is great.
                     I hear so much bullshit about this group but it seems that that is all @#%$!. I am a vegitarian but i
                     am running out of recipes. If anyone has any good recipes that they could send me it would be
                     cool.

                      You can email them to me at: pukus@skunkbox.com

                      Peace, Luc



Saturday 10/20/2001 5:15:13am
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
         Comments:

                      Since you were sincere in your post and we maintain some common ground regarding certain
                      issues, (not to mention, we've hashed this out many times), I'll let some of the pro-use boys answer
                      your post, if they choose to do so.

                      Has anyone heard of the South Carolina Waterfowl Conservation? A guy I communicate with says
                      this club raises Mallards to hunt. He says these ducks are tame and people pay to come 'hunt'
                      them. He tells me these ducks are so tame, they fly right into the line of fire. Sounds like the
                      equivalent of canned hunting to me. I think this operation needs shut down. Hmmm...



Saturday 10/20/2001 4:17:43am
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
         Comments: Yep, you guessed it, I am back...Perhaps I shouldn't stay away so long, it seems a new breed of
                     ARA activist have decided to arrive with the same old tired arguments, and yet, the same can be
                     said of the pro-use visitors as well. Believe or not "both sides" there is a happy medium. Most of
                     you who have been here a while know that I am a trapper, hunter, fisherman, and pro-use
                     advocate, yet, I am against "puppy mills", canned hunts, and UNNECESSARY animal
                     experimentation. (Regardless of your arguments, there are some experiments that ARE necessary,
                     however the practice should be closely monitored and scrutinized). Both sides have a tendency to
                     stretch the truth, however, when I find that happening on either side, I point it out. True, to the
                     poster who said animals are our food, however, that is not the preference of all people, especially
                     here. True the Bible is misquoted by both sides, yet if you actually read it for what it says you will
                     find that it leans more towards consumption of four legged critters than the ARAs will admit.
                     Again, that is open to debate, we all interpret the word of God differently and I respect that. What
                     this all boils down to is respect for each others chosen lifestyle. It is my right to consume meat,



Saturday 10/20/2001 3:39:17am
             Name: Charlette Liverman Lovern
            E-Mail: veggiegirlsrock@hotmail.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location: Virginia
         Comments: I think what your organization does is great and it would be a dream come true to be a part of it.




Friday 10/19/2001 2:58:36am
              Name: Teal
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
           Location: USA
        Comments: From the newsletter, it seems like a lot of focus has been on HLS and fast food. But the best way
                  to bring animal suffering to the front pages is to attack the gov't. The govt agencies do horrible
                  tests on animals. I think it would be kind of interesting if someone destroyed those labs now. It
                  would get a lot of publicity since the Sept 11 bombing. Plus it would allert everyone to those
                  sneaky interest groups moving to remove animal/environmental legislation while the country isnt
                  looking.
                  Just a thought.
                  Have a nice day.



Friday 10/19/2001 1:54:56am
              Name: Aly
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
           Location: Front of my puter..
         Comments:

                     The section which rapes the Bible and obliterates God's teachings was amusing at best.

                     *** No one rapes the Bible more today than the average Christian. It is obvious from which you
                     have just written here.

                     I must wonder what kind of drugs you use to reach such a heightened state of stupidity.

                     *** Listen to yourself.. Here's the proof...

                     That's all well and good, as long as you keep your "teachings" to yourself.

                     *** Works two ways...

                     After all, it's your soul, not mine.

                     *** Compassionate too I see..

                     However, when you start spreading your animal rights garbage in the form of terroristic activities,
                     Don't be surprised to start hearing about your eager supporters being found in non-functional
                     conditions while on "missions" of "liberation" if they continue to use destructive means to achieve
                     your goals.

                     *** There you go again. "Raping" the Bible with your threats to hurt other people. Something the
                     ALF has never done.



Friday 10/19/2001 0:22:15am
              Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments:
        Comments:

                    Why is it every pro-use person I run into points out that animals (which would include humans)

                    A study points out that folks who consume meat are three times as likely to suffer dementia than
                    their vegetarian counterpart. I think 'Stalker' is a prime candidate.


Thursday 10/18/2001 7:52:18pm
             Name: Chris
            E-Mail: txduckdawg@hotmail.com
  Homepage URL:
          Location: The beautiful South
        Comments: ALF response: Your imagery was excellent. However, it is possible that Jeffrey Dahlmer could
                    have waxed poetic about his actions. It begs the issue of right vs. wrong.

                    Omnivore: The imagery presented was not to paint or illustrate any beliefs I might have. The
                    "poetic" characteristic of the piece is necessary to show the contradiction in your stereotypes of
                    hunters, meat-eaters and normal society in general. That a person who finds both sanctuary and
                    salvation in nature can also embrace the primitive act of taking his own food through hunting.
                    That he is able to make a distinction between animal companionship and love and animal
                    consumption.ALF: We have lost a few animal rights supporters when they have found out that
                    ALF has received help from hunters in liberating animals from cosmetic test grounds. This is not a
                    contradiction of ALF's beliefs.

                    I feel your comparison between my narrative and Jeffrey Dahlmer's evil motivations are where
                    most of the differences in our opinions lie. You see his victims as having equal value to the
                    animals I kill and eat. I do not. ALF response: You are logical. ALF members agree that no
                    sentient being should have to endure unncessary pain. There is debate about whether some
                    animals, including human, deserve more rights than others based on HOW sentient they are (i.e.-
                    in a coma, IQ of 10, in great physical pain). Most of the debate is far from daily reality. There is
                    still a great deal of unnecessary suffering by ANY measure. We deal with that first.


                    ALF: Darwin's theory would also predict that the fittest human's will survive. He doesn't suggest
                    we kill the unfit.

                    Omnivore: I agree; only the fittest human's will survive. I am content in the fact I am a healthy
                    individual with longevity in my genes.
                    I'm confused a little with your statement, "He (Darwin) doesn't suggest we kill the unfit. If you’re
                    speaking of humans, I agree. If you’re speaking of animals, I would never kill an injured or
                    diseased animal for consumption.
                    ALF response: Why would you agree that it is not okay to kill an unfit human, but it is okay to kill
                    an animal that has feelings, family, can think logically, etc.

                    ALF response: Of all the ways of forcing morality, killing is the ultimate.

                    Omnivore: I believe I was speaking of a faction demanding or fighting for the majority to live life
                    as you might have them to. The consumption of meat and the hunting of animals are not only legal
                    but also accepted by the overwhelming majority of Americans. Many states have or are currently
                    passing amendments making hunting and fishing a constitutional right; thus making it an illegal
                    act for someone such as yourself to interfere.
                      ALF response: It is our right to try to change the laws (although this is primarily a fight
                      undertaken by animal rights groups, not animal liberation groups), and the primary means of
                      accomplishing that is to make others aware of what goes on in meat factories, etc. We are hopeful
                      that 100 years from now, we'll be the majority.

                      ALF: You are an excellent writer. Any opinions or essays will be posted wherever you would like,

                      Omnivore: Thank you for the compliment. I have always found that respectful interaction carries
                      your cause further than abusive or violent behavior. Wouldn't you agree?
                      ALF: Unfortunately, in the UK where I live, intelligent debate never reaches the public. A 10-
                      second sound byte of someone spray painting a fur store makes the news. We have found that it
                      wakes up people's minds, and even if they think the vandal was evil, they think about how
                      unnecessary fur really is. We do wish talk was enough.



Thursday 10/18/2001 5:29:58pm
             Name: Chris
            E-Mail: txduckdawg@hotmail.com
  Homepage URL:
          Location: The beautiful South
        Comments: ALF,
                    Your condensed version of my original post is quite creative. I find it humorous that you left out
                    the images of companionship I have with my dog and my almost reverent view of nature.ALF
                    response: Your imagery was excellent. However, it is possible that Jeffrey Dahlmer could have
                    waxed poetic about his actions. It begs the issue of right vs. wrong.

                      Could it be you, as most terrorist, you have trouble understanding that an actual food chain exists?
                      ALF: Speaking only for myself and two friends, we have advanced degrees in science.

                      That a man can have a love for his dog "almost" equal to that of his children, yet take the life of
                      another animal for food? It's not a contradiction; it's Darwin's theory at a microbiotic level. ALF:
                      Darwin's theory would also predict that the fittest human's will survive. He doesn't suggest we kill
                      the unfit.
                      I always welcome healthy aggressive debate on the TRUE aspects of hunting vs. forced morality.
                      ALF response: Of all the ways of forcing morality, killing is the ultimate.
                      So yes, If you could provide me with a forum to do so, I would happily accept.ALF: You are an



Thursday 10/18/2001 4:03:16pm
             Name: Chris, edited by ALF
            E-Mail: txduckdawg@hotmail.com
  Homepage URL:
          Location: The beautiful South
        Comments: No matter how hard you fight or how long you persist, I will live a lifetime of these days.........you

                      3:30am....Alarm clock rings on a cold winter. I have hunted for years. A marsh I have put more
                      time and sweat into than I can calculate.
                      I'm greeted by an early rising crane. Large, majestic, and graceful.
         Comments:




                      Once my prey (a duck) is close enough to hear the air rushing past their back-peddling wings I
                      rise to fire. Two shots explode from my father's inherited shotgun and two birds fall. Life is taken
                      in a mere half second.

                      I take a moment to inhale the morning's events. Thank God for his beauty, all this that he has
                      created. Just so a simple man can enjoy more than he himself is worth. And it is worth more than
                      me, worth more than my life. I would die to defend my children's right to hunt this land.


                      -------------------------------------
                      Hunters and conservationists,
                      Would you be willing to die or kill to protect future generation's right to keep and bear arms? To
                      hunt and provide food for their family's table? To keep this nation free of the radical socialist that
                      would be happy making your decisions for you?

                      I would.ALF response: This was abbreviated due to length. It was well written, and like every
                      commercial for McDonalds it pictured the joy of killing and eating meat. Everything is beautiful if
                      you look only at the surface.
                      Chris--if you want a separate page for your views / writing we'll provide it.



Thursday 10/18/2001 3:55:10pm
             Name: Stalker
            E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Animals do not have rights. Applying human traits to animals is ridiculous. I love my dogs, but
                    their lives are not worth more than mine or those of my family.

                      If God didn't want us to eat animals, then why did he make them out of meat?ALF response: Did
                      you know that you and your family are made out of meat? I guess god wants us to eat you.




Thursday 10/18/2001 1:42:58pm
             Name: Meateater
            E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
          Location: Illinois
        Comments: Animals are our food! We are preditors, thats why our eyes are in the front of our head!DU!ALF
                    response: My hat's off to meateater for inventing the first new agrument for not caring about the
                    pain of others that I've heard in a long time!


Thursday 10/18/2001 1:15:41pm
             Name: Damnathius
            E-Mail: danathius1@earthlink.net
  Homepage URL: http://www.tednugent.com
          Location: Reality
        Comments: The author of this site has quite the imagination. The section which rapes the Bible and obliterates
                  God's teachings was amusing at best. I must wonder what kind of drugs you use to reach such a
                  heightened state of stupidity.

                     That's all well and good, as long as you keep your "teachings" to yourself. After all, it's your soul,
                     not mine. However, when you start spreading your animal rights garbage in the form of terroristic
                     activities, you make yourself/yourselves a valid target for those who might catch you committing
                     such destructive misdeeds.

                     Don't be surprised to start hearing about your eager supporters being found in non-functional
                     conditions while on "missions" of "liberation" if they continue to use destructive means to achieve
                     your goals.ALF response: The biblical articles have been submitted by many. For years now we
                     have offerred to critics of those articles the opportunity to post rebuttals. Nobody has. Please be
                     the first.

                     ALF Responder #4: ALF is very aware of the dangers they may face while engaging in a direct
                     action.



Wednesday 10/17/2001 11:27:53pm
            Name: Rats
           E-Mail: rats@minesurfer.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location: PA
       Comments: It's about high time some people stick up for our friends. They have hearts, souls, brains and
                   feelings, more than some people. I am in total support of ALF. Can anyone suggest a place to get
                   legal help in regards to wildlife protection and habitation?
                   Also a note, don't ever go to the Game Commissions, they are of no help and a waste of tax payers
                   moneys. Their purpose in supposedly "relocating" wildlife is euthanizing them.



Wednesday 10/17/2001 8:37:26pm
            Name: Alyce
           E-Mail: alyce@extremezone.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location: Arizona, USA
       Comments: Ya'll are crazy. Just give up with the whole animal rights movement thing, it'll never work.

                     Hey Simon... When hell freezes over and the sun don't shine in Arizona. We're on a roll and we



Wednesday 10/17/2001 6:46:33pm
            Name: Paula
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: ALF
         Comments:

                      Dogs would not have voted for George Bush because they are not stupid.ALF response: Anyone
                      named bush, tree, or fire hydrant may get a dog's vote.



Wednesday 10/17/2001 12:19:12am
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: I find it humorous that someone who is 'proud' to kill is preaching tolerance. Go figure...


Wednesday 10/17/2001 12:16:14am
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments:

                      Hey Steve-O:

                      Glad to know you're with us. I would suggest looking into a vegetarian/vegan diet, as it is better
                      for you AND the environment. As for the music, check this out:

                      http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Saints/Poetry--Music/poetry_music.htm

                      Also, if you click on ALF webrings, you'll see a lot of punk websites. Thanks for the post, it's
                      always nice to see people are into the movement.



Wednesday 10/17/2001 8:43:47am
            Name: Hunter
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location: USA
       Comments: I hunt, proudly. Tolerance is a necessity in the USA. Love it or leave it.ALF response: Although
                   most known ALF members and supporters, myself included, do not live in the US, we may know
                   more about its history than "hunter". The only folks in US history who had the battle cry of "love
                   it or leave it" were folks who ironically had no concept that the founding fathers of the US
                   believed strongly in trying to make the US better. It is anti-american to accept the country as it is.
                   The country was built on civil disobedience. For an American to say "Love it or leave it" is akin
                   to saying "I got poor grades in US history."



Wednesday 10/17/2001 6:06:05am
            Name: Steve-o
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location: Vancouver (Canada)
         Comments: Hi ! I just wanted to say that I'm completely agree with you. Animals should not be killed,
                   oppressed and abused. For me the animal's life has the same value as human's life.
                   I'm a punk-rocker, I like crust (political punk rock). There are many good bands which wrote
                   songs on the Animal Liberation subject. (Crass, Citizen Fish, Subhumans).
                   I don't know why I wrote this stuff (I'm not even I vegetarian)...But I never killed anyone or
                   anything....And I hope I never will.



Wednesday 10/17/2001 3:07:59am
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Simon, because 'you' say the animal rights movement will never work, we are supposed to give up
                   the fight? Hmmm...thanks for the advice, but I think I'll keep going forward with it. Look at the
                   progress the movement has had in the past 10 years. Granted, it hasn't been easy, but then, nothing
                   is.



Wednesday 10/17/2001 2:22:42am
            Name: Simon
           E-Mail: simon3769@hotmail.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Ya'll are crazy. Just give up with the whole animal rights movement thing, it'll never work.ALF
                   response: We're quite happy with the lives we've saved and the changes in the systems we have
                   affected. However, you are correct if you are one of those who think we want animals to have the
                   right to vote--although dogs would probably have voted for bush.



Wednesday 10/17/2001 1:45:20am
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments:

                     Hi Daniel,

                     Try this web address:

                     http://www.vegsource.com/talk/steppin/travel.htm



Tuesday 10/16/2001 9:01:15pm
             Name: X VEGAN X
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location: midwest
         Comments: EVERYONE THAT IS INVOLVED IN ALF NEVER GIVE UP. WE WILL MAKE A
                    CHANGE. THANK YOU TO EVERYONE THAT CHOOSES TO BE VEGAN. IN DEFENSE
                    OF ALL LIFE. NEVER SURRENDER XXX



Tuesday 10/16/2001 1:19:30pm
             Name: Daniel S. Coggins
            E-Mail: coggins_daniel@hotmail.com
   Homepage URL: http://www.easyenglish.com
          Location: Rimini, Italy
        Comments: Dear Fellow Veggies, I had a (self-interested) idea which might appeal to you. Being a (lacto-ovo)
                    vegetarian, I often have trouble going to restaurants, especially when I'm out of town or abroad. I
                    thought a useful thing would be a database of veggie (with all the gradations: lacto, ovo, vegan,
                    etc) restaurants worldwide. I know I could contribute a couple dozen names and addresses for
                    Italy in the Rimini area (where I live). What do you think? Sincerely,Daniel S. Coggins




Tuesday 10/16/2001 1:28:59am
             Name: ALF responder
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL: http://www.curedisease.com
          Location:
        Comments: The website listed in homepage URL is worth visiting. It is by AFMA - Americans For Medical
                    Advancement



Monday 10/15/2001 11:42:14pm
            Name: Monica
           E-Mail: mlucas@graycary.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location: San Francisco
       Comments: I love you people. I love your unfailing courage in the face of ridicule and prosecution. I love that
                   you see what I see in the face of any animal. I commend you for your strength to continue the
                   fight. I pray for your safekeeping every day. I wish I had your commitment to act. I am afraid, and
                   you are not...and I will be ever envious, and proud of each and every one of you. Blessed Be.



Monday 10/15/2001 10:36:10pm
            Name: libby rait
           E-Mail: astromaui@hotmail.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Hello there all you wonderfull liberators of animals this message is nothing important its just a
                   very large thumbs up to all small but militant animal rights groups out there.
                   especially Auckland. Animal. Action.
                   and Wellington. Animal. Action.
Monday 10/15/2001 1:42:10pm
            Name: kathy
           E-Mail: difanuk@yahoo.co.uk
  Homepage URL: http://www.expage.com/dilo
         Location: London.u.k.
       Comments: I support animal rights totally!.please vote in our princess diana poll at:

                     http://www.expage.con/dilo



Sunday 10/14/2001 8:00:09pm
             Name: Gary Yourofsky
           E-Mail: dogmaday@aol.com
   Homepage URL: http://www.adaptt.org
          Location: ADAPTT Founder
        Comments: This Animal Liberation Front (ALF) action happened last month but the communique wasn't
                    received until last week.
                    The Coulston Foundation (tcf), one of the largest breeders of chimpanzees in the world, had one
                    of its maintenance buildings burned to the ground. The fire at the New Mexico death facility
                    caused about one million dollars in damage.

                     Fred Coulston, the owner of tcf who happens to be one of the most depraved people living on this
                     planet, has been directly culpable for the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent primates over the
                     years. Many many years ago he should have been placed on trial for his unrepentant acts of
                     terrorism against the animal kingdom.

                     In the early 90s, news reporter Hugh Downs of ABC's 20/20 even lashed out at Coulston during
                     an interview after Coulston insanely, maliciously and proudly stated that he HATED

                     chimpanzees.

                     Unfortunately, none of the chimps were freed, but this kind of major economic damage is an
                     integral part of our magnanimous movement.

                     Remember, the federal govt. and the National Institutes of Health supply animal researchers and
                     breeders with billions of dollars in grants annually. Therefore, devastating the abusers financially -
                     including the insurance companies who protect them - is just as important as liberating animals
                     from places of torture.

                     Plus, let me iterate once again, arsons of NONVIOLENT acts that physically injure NO ONE.
                     Buildings made of brick, wood, steel, etc., are NONSENTIENT beings devoid of feelings.
                     Therefore, since one cannot cause
                     violence to a unfeeling entity (a building), an act of fire is unequivocally NONVIOLENT.

                     Keep in mind, people who terrorize, subjugate and murder billions of animals for food, clothing,
                     research and entertainment are terrorists ... NOT the activists who free
                     animals or cause financial ruin to those who terrorize them.
The official ALF communique is below.

Photos and video mentioned below are also available online at
www.animalliberation.net/tcf/

the alf claims responsibility for the million dollar fire set in the
maintenance building at the coulston foundation (tcf).

tcf has the largest colony of captive chimpanzees in the world and has been in violation of even
the minimal standards of the animal welfare act for years.

the usda has brought more charges against tcf than any other research lab, yet it refuses to enforce
the law and shut this horrific institution down.

tcf is in such a deplorable state that the national institutes of health has pulled its funding and tcf
also lost their accreditation as a research lab.

tcf is under attack by legal groups and individuals across the country and is teetering on the edge
of bankruptcy.

chimpanzees share more than 98% of the same DNA as humans and live in complex social family
groups in the wild. at tcf, they live isolated in prisons of concrete floors and metal walls, with no
other "enrichment" items besides an occasional ball, tire, or TV set.

during nights of observation, we heard the chimps and macaque monkeys periodically scream and
crazily pound on the walls, sounds we will never forget.

a separate, anonymous video crew with no knowledge of our action filmed the disgusting
conditions of this place. the audio track on this raw video footage was removed because the crew
talked to the chimps to try and calm them down. the footage shows a crew
member feeding them raisins. some of the chimps were eager for this friendly contact, but others
only rocked themselves, nearly catatonic, in the corners of their cages.

we wanted to liberate all these animals but because of difficulty in moving and sheltering them,
especially since they're infected with MUTATIONS of HIV, hepatitis and herpes, we decided the
best way to help them was to cause as much economic damage to tcf as
possible. every precaution was taken to avoid injury to the animals,
personnel, security and firefighters.

we intend for this act of nonviolent economic sabotage to bring an end to this truly evil institution.
if any investors consider bailing out tcf, they'll have to factor in large financial losses from direct
action.

Alamogordo Daily News
Sept. 21, 2001

Explosive device found at Coulston fire

By Michael Shinabery, Staff Writer

City firefighters who spent four hours battling a blaze on Thursday may well have helped avert
what could have been a major disaster.
                    Alamogordo Department of Public Safety (DPS) firefighters, at 4:20 a.m.,
                    responded to a fire at the Coulston Foundation, Alamogordo's primate
                    research facility, at 1300 Lavelle Rd.

                    According to DPS Capt. Mike Mirabal and Officer David Flores, the structure on fire was a
                    storage building approximately 200 feet from the main primate facility. The main facility is home
                    to a large population of research chimpanzees.

                    Flores said firefighters found the storage building "fully engulfed" when they arrived. During the
                    four-hour fight the roof collapsed. While there was extensive damage, no primates were injured,
                    Flores said.

                    Once the fire was extinguished, the Major Crime Team was called in to investigate. The team is
                    made up of members from area law enforcement agencies, including the DPS, Otero County
                    Sheriff's Department, and the New Mexico State Police. Flores said investigators discovered an
                    explosive device under one of the annex buildings. The device had not detonated.


                    At that point, agents from the Department of the Treasury, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and
                    Firearms (BATF), in El Paso, as well as the FBI, were called. The Crime Team and BATF agents
                    are now conducting a joint investigation.



Friday 10/12/2001 1:03:32am
              Name: beinggoodtowardsothers....
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: I'm so sad.

                    What craps me up really badly is to come across people who claim to be ar activists but who
                    basically just use it for own purposes.

                    I just had a bad encounter with two such people. They do releases but don't bother with alf
                    policies. They use the kind of moral fame they get to imply all kinds of @#%$! into ar's and
                    vegansism, and make both seem a sole expansion of antiquated humanitarian philosophy: They
                    don't grasp that ar's sheds a new light even on "us ourselves as humans".


                    They both launched an anti-peta campaign in Germany with success, using anti-american
                    sentiment to create fame for their own group.

                    When they do a release they don't say it's something to do with the idea of the ALF, they try to get
                    attention only for their own group and their weird policies (which are extremely entwined with
                    anti-church stuff, anti-sexism stuff, instead of making ar's enough an issue in itself...haha, sob)


                    AR'S open new dimensions - EVERYTHING we see, we see it from the eyes of shedding of the
                    old sad destructiveness.
                     Anyway those guys are stirring a lot up here.

                     Oh, and. The one guy put pictures of extremely hurted and tormented animals he took on releases
                     on a "horror page" within a site that is not dealing with ar's.

                     With that he pushes animals where everybody puts them: In chambers of horror. He wouldn't want
                     to put a pic of himself on a page he would call: horror page. uh oh. Great innit.


                     Anyway, those guys scare the hell out of me. Regan was right when he said animals can't even
                     defend themselves against their defenders.

                     They would VERY probably say now that I'm against releases - but they are just twisted anyway. I
                     hope I can ever sleep again. ALL LOVE TO THE ALF - which mainly INCLUDES
                     animals)))))))and not excludes them - in NO way.

                     cheers, goodnight



Thursday 10/11/2001 10:49:34am
             Name: rupert phillips
            E-Mail: iamgay@gypsie.com
  Homepage URL:
          Location: Falmouth, Cornwall
        Comments: i am a gypsie with homer


Wednesday 10/10/2001 11:27:15pm
            Name: Paula
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: People seem to have been posting less on the animal rights boards since the 11th of September.


                     On Saturday I will attend an anti-war demonstration in London.

                     Compassion for humans and animals go hand in hand towards a better world. When so much
                     oppression of humans by humans is happening it makes me all the more aware of what we are up
                     against when fighting for animals. If humans can oppress and murder each other for land and
                     money then what chance do animals have?

                     We must never give up.

                     FREEDOM TO ALL, ANIMALS AND HUMANS ALIKE.



Monday 10/08/2001 0:43:55am
            Name: anti-speciesist
           E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
        Location:
       Comments: I couldn't follow what has been going on in the last days here:o( I'd like to invite you to pop in to
                  a project I'm just working on. Please don't think the title promises @#%$! - I exaclty tried to make
                  a critique about how language gets defined, and...well please have a read yourselves perhaps

                      Animal Rights Vegan.comALF response: Nice website.



Sunday 10/07/2001 9:14:41pm
             Name: TJG
           E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location: Pennsylvania
        Comments: Why do people hate like some of the ones who post here?
                    If you are helping those who cannot help themselves, why is that wrong? Why is it "normal to be
                    cruel and uncaring", and abnormal simply to be kind, and considerate to animals?

                      They are NOT here for our consumption and use, and anyone who qoutes this is MISQUOTING
                      from the bible. That is NOT what the bible says in relation to the animals. Even the "have
                      dominion over..." quote is taken ot of context.

                      Keep up the good work.



Friday 10/05/2001 3:07:51pm
              Name: carnie
            E-Mail: jemler@columbus.rr.com
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Hey there all you vegetarians out there. I bet you think you're better'n me 'cause I am a carcass
                     eater. Well now, I want you to know that I eat the reproductive organs of plants too. Matter of
                     fact, I'm having an apple as I write this. Can't help but wonder, though, how many generations of
                     future apple trees I just doomed. Hmmm, oh well, a guy's gotta eat.ALF response: Eating apples
                     doesn't kill the tree. That's why some folks are fruitarians. I hope you feel better now.P.S.
                     Generally speaking the Animal Liberation Front is not concerned with the survival of future
                     generations of animals, cashews, etc. We deal with minimizing the pain of the living.




Friday 10/05/2001 2:56:40pm
              Name: Jeffro
            E-Mail: jemler@columbus.rr.com
   Homepage URL:
           Location: Ohio
        Comments: This morning I woke up hungry and there wasn't much in the fridge so I put on my LEATHER
                  shoes. Then I walked out the WOODEN door onto my WOODEN deck. On the way out I kicked
                  the CAT because he was in my way. I then got into my Lexus with LEATHER seats and started
                  the motor which runs on FOSSIL FUEL. I got to the grocery store and bought a big, fat, juicy 16
                  ounce T-bone that came from a DEAD COW no...make that a MURDERED cow. The steak
                  looked so good I bought two. I then got home and fired up the grill with charcoal made from
                  NATIVE HARD WOOD and cooked those steaks rare. I put them on a plate and I PIGGED
                  OUT. I could just see that poor cow's terror filled eyes as it was being led down the shute to the
                  killing floor.

                    hahahahahahahahah aint' war hell?ALF response: You're day wasn't much different than about a
                    billion others, except that you are more aware of your affect than most. Thanks for sharing it,
                    anyway.


Wednesday 10/03/2001 10:50:19pm
            Name: Alyce
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: URGENT! Time-Sensitive Opportunity to Fight Cockfighting and Help Downed Animals

                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                    Today, Wednesday, October 3, the House of Representatives will be voting on H.R. 2646, the
                    Farm Security Act of 2001 (known as "the Farm Bill"). An amendment offered by Representatives
                    Earl Blumenauer (D-Ore.) and Tom Tancredo (R-Colo.) will prohibit the interstate transport of
                    birds for fighting purposes and thus will greatly weaken the cockfighting industry.


                    An amendment offered by Representatives Gary Ackerman (D-N.Y.) and Amo Houghton
                    (pronounced HO-tun) (R-N.Y.) will prohibit stockyards and other intermediate markets from
                    transferring or selling animals who cannot walk because of illness or injury and will require that
                    the animals be euthanized. This will prevent the beating, dragging, and bulldozing of "downed
                    animals" by livestock handlers.

                    Please call your representative right now (the number for the congressional switchboard is 202-
                    225-3121) and ask him/her to "please support the Blumenauer-Tancredo anti-cockfighting
                    amendment and the Ackerman-Houghton downed animal protection amendment to the Farm Bill."




Wednesday 10/03/2001 8:40:11am
            Name: Mark Hardy
           E-Mail: markh@recruit-it.co.za
  Homepage URL:
         Location: South Africa
       Comments: Thanks to everyone who supports animal rights, keep up the excelent work
Sunday 09/30/2001 6:53:20pm
             Name: superior being
           E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Animls are not yoosless just inferior so we cun do wot we wont with thim becose we are superior.


                     They hav fur on there backs for humans. Do yoo reely think that there fur is designed for thim and
                     there meet is for thim. There fur is for us to ware and the meet is for us to eet. That is why they
                     hav meet and hav fur, so that they can giv it to superior beings.

                     They are ment for testin drugs and cosmetics. Cant yoo peeple see that that is y thay are on the
                     aerth, for humans.

                     There purpuse is to sirve us. they wont to be killd to giv us meet and they wood be prowd to no
                     that there fur is on my back.

                     animls are owr slaves and thay dont mind becose thay acept there pupuse in life. This is y they hav
                     no intilligince becose thay dont need it.



Sunday 09/30/2001 4:46:18pm
             Name:
           E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: The following message comes from HSUS.
                    ------
                    USDA TO HALT USE OF CRUEL TRAPS AND POISONS IN WASHINGTON:
                    USDA’s Wildlife Services (WS) agency has agreed to halt its use of deadly
                    traps and poisons against Washington wildlife and to comply with the
                    provisions of Initiative 713, according to the Associated Press (09/25/01).
                    The move came last week in response to a request from Washington state
                    Attorney General Christine Gregoire.
                    In her letter to USDA Secretary Ann Veneman, Attorney General Gregoire wrote,
                    " I am, therefore, writing on behalf of the over one million Washingtonians
                    who voted in favor of I-713 to request that Wildlife Services respect the
                    desire of our citizens to more stringently regulate the use of traps and
                    poisons in the State of Washington. I ask that you direct Wildlife Services
                    to conform its wildlife control program to the prohibitions and exemptions
                    contained in I-713." Letters from HUMANElines readers also provided crucial
                    impetus in swaying the USDA to comply with I-713, which bans deadly poisons
                    and steel-jawed leghold traps and other body-gripping traps but makes narrow
                    exceptions for the use of some body-gripping traps if non-lethal methods of
                    livestock protection have proven ineffective.
                    WHAT YOU CAN DO:
                    Please write to the Washington state Attorney General to thank her for asking
                    Wildlife Services to conform its wildlife control program to the prohibitions
                    and exemptions contained in I-713. Contact:
                   The Honorable Christine A. Gregoire
                   Washington State Attorney General
                   PO Box 40100
                   Olympia, WA. 98504-0100
                   ph: 360-753-6200
                   Fax: 360-586-8474
                   email: emailago@atg.wa.gov



Sunday 09/30/2001 4:30:11pm
             Name: BD
           E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments:

                   SB! It's been so long since you've visited us...I thought you may have been hit by a truck or
                   something.
                   :)

                   Anyway...I can't build a skyscraper, a house, a birds nest, a spiderweb, an airplane, a car, a boat,
                   etc. I guess that must make me a worthless pile of sh*t?

                   One thing I can do is spell better than you. I guess that makes me superior to you. With that said,
                   step away from the plate, you aren't good enough to play. That's the "logic" you live by, isn't it?
Sunday 09/30/2001 2:10:31pm
             Name: superior being
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: I am a superior being and i am superior to all animls becose I am a superior being. if yoo
                     peeple love animls so much then y dont you live in the feelds like animals and with thim. Yoo
                     see the thin is that humns liv in howses and that meens that we are superior becose we can
                     bild them.ALF response: Odds are 2-to-1 my parrot spells better than you, and can probably
                     build a home better than you.



Saturday 09/29/2001 2:32:40pm
              Name: BD
             E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments:

                      To the "enemy":

                      The HSUS and PETA have nothing to do with the ALF. The ALF is not in this for monetary
                      gain, but rather to free the oppressed. Nuff said on that.

                      It would be nice if folks who post in the guestbook would actually READ the information



Saturday 09/29/2001 9:53:23am
              Name: Your Enemy
             E-Mail: confederate1866
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: The founders and co-founders of peta and hsus and their friends are getting rich, while you
                     stupid skirt tail hangeroners are doing the dirty work and jail time. lol
                     what a bunch of losers you guys are.



Saturday 09/29/2001 3:57:02am
              Name: Nynke Bron
             E-Mail: marcel.nynke@planet.nl
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: dear people
                     i have a question for you all
                     i'm a vegetarian for 6 years now
                     but in a few years i want to be a
                     vegan
                     can you help me collecting info
         Comments:




                      about vegan's and what to do
                      and i really want to help demostrating
                      i'm already peta member but i want to do more!

                      NYNKE

                      ALF Responder 4: type "vegan" or "veganism" into your search engine and a multitude of
                      information will be at your fingertips. Good luck and thanks for choosing a cruelty-free,
                      healthy lifestyle.



Friday 09/28/2001 7:15:36pm
              Name: The Cat
             E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Breaking news, Brian Cass has been awarded the Pharma Industry Achievement Award 2001
                     organised by guess who, the Pharmaceutical Times. The magazine editor awarded this for
                     "exceptional bravery and personal sacrifice". How cosy. For those who don't know, Brian
                     Cass is responsible for the torture and deaths of 500 animals each week at Huntingdon Life
                     Sciences in UK in the name of "science". Don't tell me that Pharmaceutical Companies are
                     not making a "killing" in terms of human and animal health and welfare for profit. Safe from
                     litigation, these companies continue to pedal their "safe" drugs to people desperate for cures.
                     Please contact Geoff Trew with polite comments.



Friday 09/28/2001 6:28:16pm
              Name: The Cat
             E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Hi,

                      Just received press release from IDA. Puppy mill closes, please contact IDA if you are able to
                      home any of these rescue baby dogs. They are deserving of loving homes.



Friday 09/28/2001 6:21:04pm
              Name: The Cat
             E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Just where do some of you people come from, stop being so violent and offensive and engage
                     in intelligent debate. Your comments only re-enforce that which is already known, animal
                     abusers primary objective is to satisfy the ego, palet or wallet or in the case of "scientific
                     research" fraud.
Friday 09/28/2001 8:29:25am
              Name: Cockfighter
             E-Mail: enterthepit@iwilllose.com
    Homepage URL: http://fightlittleboysfight
           Location: bet 50 on the grey
         Comments: I have nothing to say



Friday 09/28/2001 8:17:55am
              Name: Circle C farms
             E-Mail:
    Homepage URL:
           Location: Oklahoma
         Comments: You people are so stupid, do you know that animal products are in 50% of stuff you use and
                     you do not even know it. Do you have a sofa, of corse you do, the glue used in furniture is
                     made from animals, do you take gel cap aspirin, tylenol, or any meds. of corse you do, the gel
                     caps have animal by products in them to make digestion easier.
                     geeezus you guys are hypocrit dumb asses.ALF response: You are correct about animal
                     products. Wrong to assume what I/we know or don't know unless it's on our webpages. Is it
                     hypocritical to help some, but not all? I think not. I have passed homeless persons on the
                     street without helping (I suppose most of us have), and yet I care about people. I realize I
                     can't help every animal or every human. But it is better to help those I can help than to take
                     the position that if I don't help every one, that that is a hypocritical and thus a bad thing. It is
                     only hypocritical if I/we claimed to be perfect. No sane person does that.

                       when you eat vegetables, do you know that they have to be grown somewhere, animals are
                       displaced from there homes to make room to grow vegetables, animals are killed to keep
                       them from eating the veggies before you do. vegetables are sprayed killing millions of insects
                       so they wont ruin the crops so you can eat. do you drive, anyhing ever bash into your
                       windshield, of corse it has, you killer.
                       ever accidentally hit a dog or cat, or other animal while driving, if you know it could possibly
                       kill something then why do you do it. You say you want to save animals so why chance it. oh
                       you dont want to stop killing you just want me to stop! walk wherever you need to go. oh but
                       walking kills also, when you step on that bug or whatever. you see the only way to not kill
                       something is to be DEAD.
                       PRINT THIS ON YOUR STUPID PAGE!!
                       I am a veggie farmer so I know this is all true.
                       I kill the dam animals that try to eat my lettuce and carrots, and I sell their hides to the
                       furriers, So keep on eatin salads,
                       i am getting rich both ways



Thursday 09/27/2001 9:10:12pm
             Name: nynke
            E-Mail: marcel.nynke@planet.nl
   Homepage URL:
          Location: nederlands
        Comments: KEEP IT UP !!!
                    WE STOND WITH YOU!!!!
Wednesday 09/26/2001 8:00:54pm
            Name: The Cat
           E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Hi Slider,

                      This is probably a complete waste of my time and my comments will no doubt fall on deaf
                      ears, however I am fed up hearing that AR people don't care about humans, the usual war cry
                      of animal abusers, this is not so. However we do care about the abuse, torture and murder of
                      individuals who have no voice. We do not distinguish between human life or animal life, you
                      clearly do. Cruelty is cruelty no matter who the victim. Humans see themselves as superior to
                      the so called "lower orders" that is arrogance and ignorance, read the papers and see how
                      people treat each other, all life should be respected and all life should be allowed to live out
                      their lives according to their environment. Humans, as self imposed custodians of this planet
                      have a duty to ensure that all life is to be respected. However animal abusers do what they do
                      because of pleasure, and let's not forget the bank balance. Nice letters to bureaucrats reap no
                      reward, hit them in the wallet and there is response usually your type of response. Property
                      does not bleed, living creatures do.You are either for cruelty or against. Which are you?




Wednesday 09/26/2001 6:47:11pm
            Name: The Cat
           E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Hi Chuck,

                      Sorry, but as I live in central London the chance of anyone even me, being killed in a cow
                      stampede is fairly remote. Don't know what "nonce" means in USA but in UK it means child
                      abuser. I'm not that either. If you don't have anything reasonably intelligent to say, go away
                      until (and this is unlikely) you do.



Wednesday 09/26/2001 12:22:08am
            Name: Chuck 'Beef' McVeal
           E-Mail: ban_the_bomb@excite.com
  Homepage URL: http://mcdonalds.cum
         Location: texas yeeee-haarrrr
       Comments: i hope you all die in a cow stampede - you leaf eating nonces. you really are tossers of the



Wednesday 09/26/2001 4:12:00am
            Name: slider
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: I have to say that the recent actions by your so called group in Tucson was no better than the
                   other terrorist on that day with the exception of loss of life. Your ability to rationalize
                   destuction of someone else's property as a statment is mind numbing you disreguard for your
                   fellow citizens rights makes you just another terrorist no better than the rest. You have no
                   right to sit in judgement of other people or their lifestyle choice's you will find that there will
                   be less and less tolerance for this kind of behavior in the near future. ALF response: Loss of
                   life is not incidental. It is everything.



Tuesday 09/25/2001 11:49:31pm
             Name: Alyce
            E-Mail: alycatz7@home.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Hi Cat,

                     Yeah, their so dumb. I can just see a corral full of test tubes. Them tryin' to "grow" some
                     meat... haha


Tuesday 09/25/2001 10:00:58pm
             Name: HUMAN ANIMAL
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: YOU GUYS ARE THE COOLEST.

                     ALF ROCKS



Tuesday 09/25/2001 3:14:18pm
             Name: M@rcelo_hxc
            E-Mail: marcelo_hxc@latinmail.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location: Chile
        Comments: Thanks..!!!!!

                     Gracias a todos los que de una u otra forma son participes de A.L.F., unos más activos y otros
                     colaborando en la defensa de los animales.
                     Fuerza no retrocer (ni pa' tomar impulso). Si luchamos seguro que podremos hacer un
                     cambio, por lo menos me hijita ya tiene conciencia y también quiere a los animales. Si todos
                     nos unimos y creemos en el cambio, de seguro en un futuro cercano habrá una nueva
                     conciencia ANIMAL.
                     Saludos a los "ACTIVOS" de A.L.F., quienes se sacrifican por un cambio, son los que
                     dedican 25 horas al día en defensa de los animales. ¡¡¡¡FUERZA!!!!

                     GO A.L.F., GORA A.L.F.
Tuesday 09/25/2001 0:44:40am
             Name: antispeciesist
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Thoughts share: (I'll probably suck with this I guess. hope not. It's so hard to write down
                    thoughts I find. I'd like to share this thought with u)

                      ...We have never experienced the denial of freedom and rights we need to live on a ground
                      that would exclude us as species.

                      A phenomenon of protective rights is nothing humans have made up exclusively; even how
                      we treat each other can impact on the notion of rights.

                      The biological term species, merely describes individuals implying the parameter of
                      biologycal categories. In ethical terms species consist of individuals, and in the matter of
                      rights the right to the individual is hardly deniable on grounds based on reason.
                      Sociologically the overthrowing matter of how society is structured as a whole towards rights
                      and victims of different-than-human-animals needs answers that can address the critique that
                      the role of species in society is so because of humans and not because of different-than-
                      human-animals.

                      Nothing has ever attributed as low as a status as animals are overall given by humans. Their
                      status lowers rights to attributions we make for own ends.

                      Attributes

                      Saying that it's simply biological terms that exclude different-than-human-animals is just one

                      I think it can happen through attributions that we try to explain to other individuals and
                      ourselves a meaning something has to us. Redarding animals we make attributions confinded
                      to their status. And the status has its place in our thinking and interests.


                      The status we all give different-than-human-animals has a relevance to us, since the victims
                      have as much rights as we to make their own decisions in following their ways in evolution.


                      etc.

                      I put this on http://www.veganswines.de/veganissues.htm



Monday 09/24/2001 7:04:15pm
            Name: The Cat
           E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: Hi Alyce,
        Comments:

                    Saw this piece on Ananova. Consider the financial impact on "farmers" who "harvest"
                    animals for profit and those with vested interests, abatoir workers etc. I guess there will be
                    some who don't like this idea, bye bye bank balance, salary and mortgage. However in the
                    words of Norman Tebbit when the coalminers lost their mines, salaries and community, in
                    UK, get on your bike and find another job. However I doubt if animal abusers would have the
                    intelligence and expertise to do this.



Sunday 09/23/2001 10:29:35pm
             Name: Alyce
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments:


                    Scientist says he can create meat without killing animals

                    A Dutch scientist says he can create artificial meat in laboratories without killing animals.


                    Wiete Westerhof, from the University of Amsterdam, plans to use the same method used to

                    He believes he will be able to grow lumps of meat weighing up to 50kg in large containers.


                    The meat would be produced using collagen particles and muscle cells taken from "animal
                    donors" who would not be harmed.

                    The muscle cells would then grow and multiply on the collagen.

                    Mr Westerhof anticipates containers able to hold more than 5,000 litres, in which the meat
                    would grow in a nutrient solution.

                    This liquid would contain 62 ingredients, including 20 amino acids, 12 vitamins and various
                    enzymes.

                    "The product will have the structure and taste of lean meat, but animals won't have to suffer
                    for it," said Mr Westerhof.

                    The dermatologist says pork, beef and chicken meat could all be produced artificially as well
                    as kangaroo, whale and shellfish.

                    Mr Westerhof and two businessmen own the worldwide patent to the method and are looking
                    for investors.


Sunday 09/23/2001 11:45:52am
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
         Comments: Hi all,

                     Here's a nice piece for Sunday. Reported in Telegraph 23rd September. Dogs detect
                     malignant melanomas in their companion humans prior to detection by medical professionals,
                     causing speculation that dermatologists should employ canines on a regular basis to
                     distinguish malignant from benign skin cancer in humans. Who's superior now, superior
                     being.



Saturday 09/22/2001 3:59:16am
              Name: Brad
             E-Mail: endthekilling@yahoo.com
   Homepage URL: http://www.geocities.com/endthekilling/memorial.html
           Location:
         Comments: I Liked your page, and Ill check in and see your updates.



Friday 09/21/2001 11:57:53pm
              Name: BD
             E-Mail:
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments:

                     To "Superior Idiot":

                     If eating meat provides "brain power", and YOU'RE a meat-eater, I'll stick to my beans.



Friday 09/21/2001 11:37:32pm
              Name: superior being
             E-Mail:
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: To DB

                     I hav herd of spell chek but i dont need it.

                     your been soop isnt worth anything. if yoo want to get some real protein then i sugest yoo eat
                     meat.
                     ALF responder 4: Protein article



Friday 09/21/2001 7:01:43pm
              Name: The Cat
             E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
    Homepage URL:
          Location:
         Comments: Hi Zac,

                     The point I was trying to make about custodial and non-custodial sentences for animal abuse
                     was, Mr.Puppy Shredder apparently also offended against humans, Ms."Accidentally
                     microwaved my cat" did not offend against humans, notice the difference in sentence. In my
                     book and I'm sure yours also, anyone who offends against life of any species should receive
                     the same judgment. Superior species, you're back again, you still can't spell. Go back to
                     "skool".


Friday 09/21/2001 10:16:44am
              Name: BD
             E-Mail:
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments:

                     To "Superior Being":

                     What happened on September 11th was, of course, very tragic. It has been ALL I, as well as
                     most Americans, have been talking about since the first plane hit. I would like to point out
                     though that this is an animal related guestbook and therefore the appropriate discussions are
                     animal-related. The government may not be talking about animals at this time, but they are
                     not talking about my 16 bean soup either. Does that make it worthless? No, it provides me
                     with protein. :)

                     BTW, ever heard of spell check?



Friday 09/21/2001 4:34:08am
              Name: Pepper
             E-Mail:
    Homepage URL:
           Location: Near Phoenix, AZ
         Comments: Well, I was just standing there washing the dishes, my TV was on the local news.
                     I wasn't paying much attention until I saw ALF and ELF all over McD's.. You guys are
                     lookin' good.. Hang in there..



Friday 09/21/2001 3:19:47am
              Name: antispeciesist
             E-Mail:
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Hi superior human,

                     If you want to see a person like me for example as inferior: big deal.
         Comments:



                     Why do you talk about humans? I talk for the same reason about animals. Animals get
                     disciminated by most humans everywhere where humans are.

                     Protecting a democracy is important cos of the ethical values the democracy contains. I don't
                     consider myself a human in your senses. I'm talking about my equals as much as you want to
                     talk about your concerns. What do you expect?

                     Individuals count to me (in negatives an positives) an animal individual, whatever species
                     they belong to...I know, an animal individual is as irrelevant to you as it is to any chinese
                     human, brasillian human, german human or whatsoeverselfdeclared-human.

                     ....only: I find animal individuality just more reasonable than the human categories you want
                     to feel save in - you don't question how ethical your categories are.

                     I'd rather be alone than unjust. If you say animals are not ethical I wouldn't agree with you on
                     that since I am ethical too.

                     I've had enough of involvement into the human species. I'm rather "inferior" than narrowing
                     my ethical concern to the human species ever again: Involvement with solely human concerns
                     made me guilty of betraying justice. I have enough of being unjust towards different-than-
                     human-animals.



Thursday 09/20/2001 10:59:58pm
             Name: superior being
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: How can yoo keep this forum open wen so meny peeple have died in america.

                     cant yoo understand that now it is been proved that animals are worthless, becose they will
                     not be talking about animals in the the US government. Nobody in teh world is talking about
                     animals now except yoo. So many peeple have been killed and more peeple are at risk and
                     yoo lot keep on arging about animals.

                     yoo dont care about htese peeple who have died or yoo would be arging about it insted of
                     animals.ALF response: Seems to me like you're doing most of the talking.



Thursday 09/20/2001 5:42:56pm
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments:
                    Um...Lilla, you may want to read MY comments again. I am 100% animal rights activist. You
                    obviously read my post wrong. I was responding to Mark's post. Go back and read it. No
                    need to apologize, I've read posts wrong before too.
                    Your pal in animal rights,
         Comments:




                     BDALF response: The confusion occurs when someone copies another person's post and
                     responds to it line-by-line. Unless someone goes back and reads the original post it will be
                     clear only to the original poster. The convention of using asterisks to designate one of the
                     posters changes from poster to poster.


Thursday 09/20/2001 3:30:04pm
             Name: LILLA AND NONYAH!
            E-Mail: NONYAH
   Homepage URL:
          Location: NEV.
        Comments: Apparently, B.D. AND MARK ARE FULL BLOWN SATANISTS or just XTREMELY
                    EVIL & IGNORANT! I believ this one-in-the-same HUMAN asked WHY i care about
                    animals? If ANYone should "get a life", it WOULD B U
                    BD or WHATever you indeed are. If you HATE and DISrespect animal life SO MUCH
                    YOU DON'T belong on this site! Obviously
                    you hav nothing better to do than com here to vent yor sick mind! Animals hav a 6th SENSE!
                    YOU DON'T even know what that is! Humans use less than 10% of their available
                    intelligence. The "higher intelligence" i speak of is UN-
                    tapp't by MOST. Animals speak telepathic
                    ally.They KNOW BEFORE YOU do! But becuz
                    there are humans like yorself, who hate
                    and abuse animals, there are KIND humans
                    who relate to animals and who SPEAK UP FOR THEM. IF you were INDIAN AMERICAN,
                    you would ALREADY think that way. AND,
                    as far as USING what you kill of an ani-
                    mal; i NEVER stated my views on taking an animals life for survival. I myself prefer to stay
                    vegetarian and further-
                    more, do NOT believ in waste! I know about having to survive. I do NOT wish a dialogue
                    further with you.As ELLEN DE-
                    GENERES said, som humans are just,"the
                    wrong kind of people". Why don't you go to a hunting site where you might better fit in!
                    There is MUCH MOR IMPORTANT here than the waste of space humans who choose to
                    waste precious lives while they clearly are waste's of space them-
                    selves. Also, let me reassure you about
                    "instant karma", that what goes around comes around. So if you do harm an ani-
                    mal and think you'r getting away with it
                    there's such a thing call'd METEMPSYCHO-
                    SIS; it IS UNIVERSAL LAW that IS. When you inflict pain or take a life,YES,even an
                    animal life, you WILL RETURN AS SUCH
                    the NEXT TIME AROUND,and there WILL BE GRAVE CONSEQUENCES.You will
                    endure the SAME FATE. That is inexcapable.You, WE
                    ONLY hav 10&FREE WILL,the rest is KARMIC
                    REAPING AND SOWING. GOT IT? GET IT? GOOD! TAH-TAH!



Thursday 09/20/2001 2:01:35pm
             Name: Zac
            E-Mail: zacs_house@hotmail.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location: Durham, England
        Comments: In reply to Cats post about the woman who "accidentally" microwaved her cat alive, and not
                  recieving a custodial sentence, I agree and think that it was discusting. But there lies the
                  problem with the British law as regards to animal cruelty, the MAXIMUM sentence you can
                  recieve for extreme cases is SIX months. Now with remission, you can be expected to be
                  released within 2-2.5 months.

                    I know this for a fact because of a case involving a person who I know. He got pissed off with
                    his landlords dog barking so he picked up the dog and smashed it off the walls of the living
                    room, breaking EVERY bone in it's body. The skull alone was smashed into 25 pieces. He
                    then cut off all 4 of the dogs paws and it's tail, and stabbed it numerous times. He tried to
                    hide the body of the dog but was convicted, and recieved a six month sentence, and was out
                    in 2. Upon his release he was rehoused somewhere out of the area under new identy because
                    of death threats against him. Someone please tell me is this right?


                    No it's not, it's total bull. And if you happen to be reading this John Moody, we have'nt
                    forgotten, your still a marked man on this patch.

                    Zac.........................



Wednesday 09/19/2001 9:17:07pm
            Name: Pepper
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Home > Action Alerts >

                    Join the Fight for Dog Burned Alive

                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                    Will Robinson of Delmar, Ala., is alleged to have burned the family dog alive on August 29,
                    2000. He might be about to get away with it. Robinson reportedly became enraged when he
                    found the dog rummaging through garbage, shot her twice, then threw the injured animal on a
                    pile of trash, doused her with a flammable substance, and set her on fire. The dog apparently
                    burned to death as Robinson’s children and neighbors watched in horror. A Northwest
                    Alabamian article quotes one eyewitness as stating, "Robinson shot the dog, then went inside
                    and came out later, maybe five minutes, and shot [her] again. … He went and got some
                    [flammable substance]. You could hear the dog. [She] was still alive," and Robinson’s
                    children "were crying and carrying on." Another witness states, "I heard the dog [yelp] and he
                    shot [her] again, but didn’t kill [her] … I saw [Robinson] pouring [a substance], and I turned
                    away. I knew what he was fixing to do." Witnesses report hearing the dog scream "six or
                    eight times," then "suck fire into her lungs and die."
                      When the Winston County prosecutor recused himself from this case for unknown reasons,
                      the Attorney General submitted it before the grand jury. Unable to reach a unanimous
                      decision, the grand jury failed to indict Robinson—who remains a free man. Governor
                      Siegelman, who signed the Gucci bill (named for another dog burned alive) which
                      strengthened Alabama’s animal protection laws, has asked the new Winston County District
                      Attorney, John Bostick, to "explore every avenue in the pursuit of justice."


                      Please send polite letters to:

                      The Honorable John Jackson Bostick
                      Winston County District Attorney
                      25th Judicial Circuit
                      P.O. Box 211
                      Double Springs, AL 35553




Tuesday 09/18/2001 6:28:01pm
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Here's a couple of interesting articles both from reliable sources. People Eating Tasty
                    Animals website has lost it's appeal(if it had any in the first place)it can no longer continue
                    with it's current website address as according to the judge "it has been cyberspace squatting".
                    Sad that. Also current press release. Austrian circus owner is being investigated by police for
                    using his elephants to attack peaceful activists handing out leaflets. Fifteen people were
                    injured in this attack. Roman Zinnecker the circus director said "the elephants probably
                    trotted up when they saw I was being attacked". (in your dreams Roman)




Tuesday 09/18/2001 5:51:23pm
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: To whoever posted re. shredded puppies. Thanks so much for telling me the fate of the
                    person who senselessly and needlessly murdered these baby dogs. I wonder however if he
                    had not offended against humans, would the sentence be any less. The woman who
                    "accidentally" microwaved her cat in UK was not given a custodial sentence. However her
                    neighbours and interested parties have given her the equivalent. She is still keeping the local
                    builders and glaziers in business.


Tuesday 09/18/2001 12:51:58am
             Name: antispeciesist
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: Thank you so much for passing these important thoughts on BD. I'm endlessly glad to read
                   Gary Yourofskys words. In deep thoughts of all the different-than-human-animal individuals.

                    I'm just translating a most excellent text by Karen Davis (UPC): "Thinking like a Chicken."
                    The text deciphers in which stance the total disregard (...) for individual - categorized as
                    "farm" -animals is rooted. Anyone who hasn't read that text so far, please read it for the
                    argumentation
                    http://www.upc-online.org/thinking_like_a_chicken.html



Tuesday 09/18/2001 12:30:31am
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments:

                    Stunning Hypocrisy
                    By Gary Yourofsky

                    For nearly a week, I have been transfixed to the news. CNN, MSNBC,
                    Peter Jennings, Rather, The Today Show, FOX-News. Report after
                    report. Image after image. The collision. The fireball. The smoke.
                    The collapse. The rubble. The debris. Ground zero. The response.

                    As one of the nations most outspoken animal liberationists, I speak
                    for the entire movement when I tell you that we have the utmost
                    empathy for every innocent victim of the Trade Center and Pentagon
                    attacks. The outrageous notion that animal rights humanitarians are
                    anti human is untrue.

                    We are activists because billions of innocent animals are murdered
                    without so much as a disquieting tinge of guilt from the masses.
                    We are vegans because we realize that violence and hatred must
                    be destroyed at its root.
                    .
                    We accept Alice Walker's words of wisdom: "The animals of the world
                    exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more
                    than black people were made for white or women made or men."

                    This past week, my faith in humanity was restored temporarily because
                    the world was condemning evil and the taking of innocent lives.

                    In our unity to find the perpetrators, I believed that we would understand
                    that murdering any living being was wrong. I believed the sheer terror that
                    humans inflict upon innocent animals for food, clothing, sport, entertainment
                    and research would end.

                    The words of Thomas Edison came to mind: "Nonviolence leads
                    to the highest ethics which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop
harming all other living beings, we are still savages."

Would the camouflaged-hunters -- lurking on American soil, skulking in
the distance with guns and bows, waiting to terrorize and kill more than
one hundred million innocent animals annually -- throw their weapons to
the ground?

Jesus' words as spoke in the Gospel of the Nazirenes made more sense
than ever : "Verily I say unto you, for this end have I come into the world:
that I may put away all blood offerings and the eating of the flesh of the
beasts and the birds that are slain by men. In the beginning the Creator
gave to all the fruits of the trees, and the seeds and the herbs for food;
but those who loved themselves more than the Lord or their fellows,
corrupted their ways and brought diseases into their bodies, and filled the
earth with lust and violence (75:9-14)."

The repetitive talk of people revolting against evil sickened me
because it was hypocritical and deceitful. Each carnivore is
responsible for the murder and dismemberment of more than
3,000 animals throughout their lifetime. Whether you kill
thousands in 78 years or 78 minutes, you are still a killer
and a terrorist.

Annually, in the US alone, nine billion cows, pigs, chickens and
turkeys live in animal concentration camps. Within the first year
of their pathetic lives, they're sent to killing-houses where knife-
wielding carnivore terrorists slit their throats and dismember their
bodies.

Shamefully, the hatred that humans have towards nonhumans is so
vicious, aseptic and bitter, a thousand peaceful Gods and Goddesses
couldn't eradicate it.

For a moment, though, there was a glimmer of hope. Reporters,
civilians and government officials kept saying destroy the evil.

Unfortunately, they were only referring to the evil people who disrupt
the rest of society from their own evil deeds.

Philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer once explained, "The illusion that our
treatment of animals has no moral significance is a positively outrageous
example of Western crudity and barbarity. Universal compassion is the
only guarantee of morality."

Would the animal researchers who terrorize 50 million dogs, cats, primates
and mice annually in vivisection procedures have a revelation? The March
of Dimes experimenters who sew shut the eyes of kittens and ferrets to
see if blindness affects their brains would surely stop their barbaric acts
of terrorism.

After last week's bombardment, the researchers at the Oregon Regional
Primate Research Center who electro-ejaculate primates in order to obtain
                sperm for the ORPRC breeding colony would make the connection now.
                Surely, the animal research community was going to be arrested and
                charged with acts of terrorism.

                We know Osama bin Laden and his cronies are terrorists, but what
                about the government authorities who mandate pogroms against
                innocent animals?

                What about religious folk who conveniently claim that God is an
                animal-killing entity who condones the violence and murder of
                His animals?

                Would terrorist fur-farmers and trappers be sent to prison for breaking the
                necks of mink, anally electrocuting foxes, genitally electrocuting chinchillas
                catching wild animals in steel jaw leghold traps?

                Would humankind realize that animals do not want to be our food, clothing,
                entertainment and research specimens. Would we accept the words of
                British Bishop William Inge: "If animals ever formulated an organized
                religion, the devil would be depicted in human form."

                Would Gandhi's immortal words of peace -- "The life of a lamb is no less
                precious than that of human" -- be recited at every school across America.

                If people truly want to end terrorism, discard animal flesh from refrigerators,
                toss bows and bullets into the trash, insist that universities close down their
                vivisection laboratories, demand that department stores close their fur salons immediately,
                make circuses go all-human and abolish the rodeo's barbarity
                today.

                Otherwise, any talk of peace, civilization and justice will remain the
                most hypocritical rhetoric that has ever existed.



Monday 09/17/2001 10:17:39pm
            Name: reply to Mark who doubted this was real
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: MAN WHO KILLED PUPPIES IN AGRICULTURAL SHREDDER GETS JAIL TIME

                SOURCE: http://www.uniontrib.com/news/state/20010912-1004-puppieskille.html

                San Joaquin Valley man sentenced to prison for killing four puppies VISALIA - The man
                who slaughtered four puppies in an agricultural shredder has been sentenced to three years
                and eight months in state prison.
                Brandon Ferguson, 26, pleaded no contest in August to four felony counts
                of cruelty to animals, one felony count of dissuading a witness from reporting a crime and
                one felony count of threatening a witness.
Monday 09/17/2001 1:38:54am
            Name: ACB
           E-Mail: quietluke
  Homepage URL:
         Location: Duck Valley
        Comments: I presented your responses to the council of Western Shoshone Nation for discussion. Our
                    average income is $4,500 each year. We are poor people. Our society is based on live stock
                    supplemented by hunting. We have had much taken from us in the last hundred years. We
                    have very little left. It was decided that your written threat was to be taken seriously. You are
                    much like the whites. You say you respect our culture, but in next breath, you say our
                    traditions and religion should die. The council decided unanimously to prepare for any
                    further action your group may take against us.


                       Respectfully,
                       Alex Cloud Bear
                       ALF response: You are a bit paranoid. One animal rights activist got in the way of your
                       hunting and you think there is a conspiracy against you. If your average annual income is
                       $4,500 (about 1/2 minimum wage) then you might want to worry about things other than
                       passersby. But be aware that the world is changing, and fewer people everywhere have
                       tolerance for killing animals. I'm surprised but happy to hear that this lack of tolerance has
                       spread to indian reservations. It is not based on any culture, any particular ethnicity or race. It
                       is based on logic. And you should take it seriously. No one will hurt you, but folks might
                       want to stop your killing. By the way, we have indians in our organization.




Sunday 09/16/2001 3:26:22am
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: I think it is also important to ask ourselves what have "I" done to save animals lives lately...



Sunday 09/16/2001 2:24:56am
             Name: Rae-J
            E-Mail: Immortal Visions@aol.com
   Homepage URL: http://Blue Moon Rattery
          Location: Southern California
         Comments: I think what the ALF does is sooo important. However, I know all that they have done in the
                   past, yet what about now? Have they done anything to save any animals lives lately? ALF
                   response: On Labor Day, ALF liberated over 750 ducks and countless number of ducklings
                   from Whistling Wings, a duck breeding facility in Hanover, Illinois. ALF activists "opened
                   all of the cages and barn doors for the ducks to escape to freedom," states the letter received
                   by ALF Press Office. The Animal Liberation Front believes that ducks and all waterbirds and
                   animals have an inherent right to live their lives free from pain, suffering and torture. The
                   ducks bred at Whistling Wings are destined for a short life of suffering and death when they
                   are sent to hunters, taxidermists, and vivisectors. For more, see the link on the home page to
                   "No Compromise"




Saturday 09/15/2001 11:01:43am
              Name: antispeciesist
             E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: I can't comprehend why very many people don't show total outrage when they see farm
                     animals: getting oppressed "per definition" - getting slaughtered.
                     When I criticise people for being speciesist they make an issue on how I stand towards
                     humans. When I compare what happens to an animal individual right now in a slaughterhouse
                     - the degree of injustice and oppression that had lead to that the animal individual is in this
                     'machinery' - the slaughterhouse now, to the social structures leading to hatred and war
                     between human societies, then I would think the form of discrimination towards animals is by
                     far more blatant and should be clearly addressed and solved...That it needs an 'open'
                     democratic society (...) is clearly THE neccessary basis. But I fear at the moment that
                     speciesism is in fact even in the free world still a major problem: raisisng the animal rights
                     issue seems hard.

                      I hope so much that every human realizes that the nonhuman individual called a pig, chicken,
                      whichever nonhuman is an individual (too) and suffers endlessly now. The unfairnesss
                      towards animals is the WORST thing that ever could happen.
                      Sorry if anybody feels offended: If one wants to defend justice!, why should one be
                      apologetic though.



Friday 09/14/2001 7:10:31pm
              Name: The Cat
             E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Where is everyone. Checkout the company Eisai, recent press release is that they manufacture
                     and market drugs, food additives and veterinarian products. They have interests in
                     Japan/USA/UK. Their speciality is injecting beagle puppies with invasive substances for
                     several minutes daily. To prevent baby dogs "fighting back" they were "restrained".
                     Comments welcomed. Action welcomed. Please post polite comments to www.eisai.co.uk.
Friday 09/14/2001 4:41:17pm
              Name: The Cat
             E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Hey Willer Cox,

                     Could you put your comments into words that I can understand. All I understood was "blow
                     up" don't you think that was rather insensitive under the current circumstances.




Friday 09/14/2001 4:30:39pm
              Name: The Cat
             E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Hi Jeff,

                     The answer is simple, get your choice of colour T-SHIRT and design your own. No sarcasm
                     intended, it's how I do mine, nothing like the personal touch.


Friday 09/14/2001 3:10:01pm
              Name: JEFF KOVACH
             E-Mail: JRK1@PRODIGY.NET
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: CAN SOMEONE TELL ME WHERE I CAN GET A SHIRT THAT SAYS SIMPLY
                     "ANIMAL LIBERATION FRONT"--THANKS--ALF response: They used to be available at
                     No Compromise.com. I'm not sure if they are today. If you find out anything, please let us
                     know. Thanks.



Friday 09/14/2001 12:17:52am
              Name: BD
             E-Mail:
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments:
                     Some good news to report.

                     About 30 or 40 days ago, ADAPTT-Tampa sent out a message
                     about animal researcher P. Micahel Conn's attempt to obtain an
                     executive position at the University of South Florida (USF).

                     If you recall, Conn is the vile, vicious animal terrorist who oversees
                     the Oregon Regional Primate Research Center (ORPRC) where
                     primates are routinely ELECTRO-EJACULATED to obtain sperm for
                   the ORPRC breeding colony. This terroristic institute has thousands
                   of enslaved, tortured and soon-to-murdered primates who undergo
                   a lifetime of misery, pain and torment in UNSCIENTIFIC and
                   UNETHICAL protocols.

                   Images of electro-ejaculation and other malicious, devilish acts were
                   recently videotaped by an ORPRC whistle-blower and sent out to a
                   handful of groups including ADAPTT.

                   Thanks to the diligence of ADAPTT-Tampa coordinators Melissa
                   Waz and Karen Lybrand, and the countless letter-writing efforts
                   of other activists and orgs., "WE" have successfully convinced
                   USF to eliminate Conn as a possible addition to the academy.

                   Yesterday, Waz (MLWSpider@aol.com) informed me that Conn
                   is OFFICIALLY OUT of the race for the position of vice president
                   of research at the University of South Florida!

                   Waz discovered that on Sept. 12, at the search committee's closing
                   meeting, one by one the members began to admit they were harboring
                   reservations about Conn. The meeting ended with a unanimous
                   REJECTION and four abstentions!

                   USF President Genshaft came in for the results and accepted the
                   committee's decisions.

                   The only possible downside is that the woman candidate, a nutritionist,
                   got axed too. And Genshaft is not enthusiastic about the remaining
                   candidate, a magnetic scientist. She will talk with him again, but it
                   looks like the search may be reopened with a new committee and
                   new applicants.

                   Waz's sources tell ADAPTT that entertaining another vivisectionist
                   would be unlikely. But in case they do, we'll take steps to block
                   it much earlier.

                   Please spread the good news of this post to others.

                   Gary Yourofsky
                   ADAPTT Founder/President



Friday 09/14/2001 2:52:23am
              Name: Alyce
             E-Mail:
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Hello George..

                   @#%$!
                   @#%$!
         Comments:




                     ***What church do you go to George? Looking at all these little squiggly things looks like
                     you got the baptism..


                     If some guy wants a hamburger for lunch, it ain’t the end of the world.

                     ***Maybe not for you but it is for the one you ate.

                     If you all don’t wanna eat meat., that’s cool man.

                     ***Meats not cool. Tofu is cool.


                     Quit breakin into our places and tearin @#%$! up.

                     *** Whoops! The Spirit is movin' again..

                     I bet you all is aethists man.

                     ***Now your betting.. Tsk, tsk.

                     Nobody that loves God gonna do the things you do yoselves.

                     ***Oh my.. judging George...




Friday 09/14/2001 1:17:37am
              Name: Willer Cox
             E-Mail: ad_sniper@yahoo.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location: Still in Saigon
         Comments: Semper Fi Davy Boy. Imagine stumbling across you on a site like this. These guys are out of
                     country. Don’t waste your bullet on them. I included my email here so we can join up for
                     some old times. The rest of you crazy mothers can go blow up a mink farm somewhere.




Friday 09/14/2001 1:05:14am
              Name: BD
             E-Mail:
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Is this guy for real? Man. ROFLMAO


Friday 09/14/2001 0:36:26am
           Name:    Burley George
          E-Mail:   ain't tellin
   Homepage URL:
        Location:   Alabama
       Comments:    I’ve been hearin news clips bout you guys raiding animal research labs and tearing up
                    @#%$! and spray painting walls.
                    I heard bout your web site on the news the other day and stopped by.
                    At first I thought it was some kinda joke man.
                    You guys ainta kiddin thou.
                    Man you all braggin bout your burglaries.
                    This is the kinda @#%$! that them punk kids pull in the inner cities.
                    @#%$! man, I grew out of steelin hub caps back in the 50’s.
                    Why can’t you all just live and let live.
                    If some guy wants a hamburger for lunch, it ain’t the end of the world.
                    He hasn’t committed the impardonable sin.
                    If you all don’t wanna eat meat., that’s cool man.
                    Just don’t force the rest of us to do the same.
                    Quit breakin into our places and tearin @#%$! up.
                    I bet you all is aethists man.
                    Nobody that loves God gonna do the things you do and then try talking circles on the innernet
                    just to justify yoselves.
                    Man you all nothinbut a pack of wild wolves looking to tear some poor folks up.
                    I don know how you all can sleep nights.
                    Some guy tryin ta make a livin and you wanna tear his place up.
                    You all needa get some kinda life, man.
                    How bout joinin a church and contributin to something good for change.
                    You might feel lots better in the mornins and sleep real good too.
                    Chill man.



Thursday 09/13/2001 9:32:14pm
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments:

                    I’m Shoshone healer and historian. My people have had long standing relationship with
                    animals, trees, grass, rocks and all creation.

                    ***I too have a relationship with everything you just mentioned. I have the utmost respect for
                    nature and all her inhabitants.

                    We still take animals in hunts. This is not done lightly. To us, the hunt is sacred and great
                    respect is given for the animal spirit which gave of himself to nourish and clothe us. This is
                    the gift and legacy the Great Spirit left us.

                    ***The animal did not "give of himself to nourish and clothe you", you TOOK his life. Did
                    you have his consent? Did he say to you, "here is my body, let it nourish and clothe you."
                    Some legacies and traditions should die out.
                     This weekend, my family was accosted by person who claimed to be animal rights activist.
                     My question is, was this person acting on established doctrine or agenda of the animal rights
                     organization, or was he rogue individual acting out against group of people with
                     vindictiveness.

                     ***Every animal rights activist is different. There is no set of rules that say "when you meet a
                     hunter, you are to challenge them." Every person reacts in his own way.




Thursday 09/13/2001 7:11:50pm
             Name: weebler
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Any insight into your beliefs and policies regarding Native Americans and their relationship
                    with animals would
                    be helpful.

                     **Hi, I believe that one cannot use religious/spiritual beliefs as a justification for causing
                     harm to others. This happens all over the world.
                     In Europe, the Middle East, Africa, North America, etc.
                     I believe one must be fair. If someone can say that their deity and tradition allows one to kill
                     members of other species, then someone else can say that their deity or tradition allows one
                     to pray upon other humans. They already do it. It happens all the time. To say that humans
                     should get special consideration requires that one prove/show how and why humans are
                     superior in value.

                     All arguments and reasons given are arbitrary and subjective.
                     We are all part of nature or god or a great spirit-we should be trying to be as fair and just to
                     others(human and non human) as much as possible.



Thursday 09/13/2001 6:59:10pm
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Hi Alex,

                     Firstly let me say that I have the greatest respect for your culture, however animal abuse is
                     animal abuse regardless of creed, colour or class. Animal don't give of themselves to humans,
                     they are taken without consent. In the UK fox hunts operate under the auspices of "tradition"
                     maybe much the same as your culture. This does not make the killing of animals right, it
                     serves only the human. AR people oppose any killing, torture and abuse of animals regardless
                     of culture or cultural beliefs and anyone/organisation/business that supports this idealogy is a
                     legitimate target. AR has no membership or "doctrine" this is a human concept. I have no
                     idea who accosted yourself or your family but if you subscribe for whatever reason to the
                     destruction of animal life AR will oppose it with direct action.
Thursday 09/13/2001 6:54:54pm
             Name: weebler
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: This is about respect. Your initial attack(it was an attack) was absolutely offensive and
                    repugnant. If you don't respect our values--do you expect us to give you a hug back? If you
                    cant deal with WORDS, the arsenal of reason, would you prefer the type of tactics of those
                    terrorists?
                    It is unfortunate that you lost your job. But it is not even close to being as tragic as those that
                    have been burned, cut open, blinded, genetically tortured, and slaughtered in ways that would
                    be seen as an atrocity if done to the most hated criminals.
                    But you see--I don't really know if you can understand that.
                    You come from the position that we are wrong--(without being able to prove it--no surprise
                    there) and you ignore anything that would educate you.

                       If you don't want personal attacks--don't make offensive comments.
                       You think we dont have feelings?


                       It is terrible to use a tragedy like the WTC/September 11 disaster as an excuse to rage against
                       animal rights activists.
                       There are more important things happening at the moment than whether or not you have a
                       steady paycheck.

                       Peace.


Thursday 09/13/2001 6:43:10pm
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments:

                       Hey dude don’t waste your breath on these LUNATICS==TheY BE just a bunch rich teenie
                       bopper; anti U.S. @#%$! bag terrorists just like you said==

                       ***I don't recall reading any such words.

                       They outta be put against the wall with the rest of them rag head mofos==What With all that
                       f**kin insults they sent you; and the ton a misspellings they made;

                       ***sticks and stones, "Patriot", sticks and stones...

                       they’re nothing But a bunch a ball-less spinless; 2faced; shitters that wouldn’t know how to
                       sacrifice and serve their country if their worthless lives depended on it==

                       ***D@mn, where do you get your information??
                      All they know what to do is f**k up other peoples property and lives for a bunch of
                      moF**kin Chicken Eggs==They don’t deserve NO RESPECT.

                      ***It goes way beyong "chicken eggs" and if you knew how to read, I'd invite you to read the
                      information on this website. And we don't ask for your respect.

                      EAT @#%$! AND DIE TERRORIST FREAKS==

                      ***I gave up eating sh*t when I gave up eating meat.



Thursday 09/13/2001 6:08:42pm
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Hi Dave,

                      I think everyone is appalled at the carnage in New York/Washington and Pittsburg. Animal
                      Rights people are not human haters, they oppose the system that makes it OK for animal
                      abuse to continue. The legal system is part of the establishment that allows and promotes
                      animal abuse. Writing polite letters to bureaucrats just doesn't work. The only action that
                      works with people in power is direct action. Exposes them and hits them in the wallet the
                      only thing they understand. I'm sorry that you lost a job but if it was associated with animal
                      abuse in any form your company is a legitimate target. If you are interested in AR stick
                      around and thanks for the apology.



Thursday 09/13/2001 6:03:44pm
             Name: Alex
            E-Mail: quietluke
   Homepage URL:
          Location: Duck Valley NV
        Comments: I’m Shoshone healer and historian. My people have had long standing relationship with
                    animals, trees, grass, rocks and all creation. We still take animals in hunts. This is not done
                    lightly. To us, the hunt is sacred and great respect is given for the animal spirit which gave of
                    himself to nourish and clothe us. This is the gift and legacy the Great Spirit left us. This
                    weekend, my family was accosted by person who claimed to be animal rights activist. My
                    question is, was this person acting on established doctrine or agenda of the animal rights
                    organization, or was he rogue individual acting out against group of people with
                    vindictiveness. Any insight into your beliefs and policies regarding Native Americans and
                    their relationship with animals would be helpful.


                      Respectfully yours,
                      Alex Cloud Bear
                      ALF responder: Most animal rights groups are against hunting. ALF liberates animals from
                      some form of captivity (lab experiments, fur farms). As such, hunting is not on our official
                      agenda. Animal Rights groups post their opinions on our website, including anti-hunting
                      positions. If you want to read them and respond, your opinion will be posted. We claim to be,
                      and try to uphold, clear logic.



Thursday 09/13/2001 4:34:36pm
             Name: Dave Tritium
            E-Mail: d_tritium@hotmail.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location: Moscow, Idaho
        Comments: It was not my intent to start an argument with my posting on your board. I had just lost my
                    job, due in part to ALF vandalism, due in part to a lack of funding in the down turned
                    economy. Without the vandalism, the job would have lasted another six months anyway. So
                    that is a moot point. One of your members was right in that I was lashing out at the time.
                    However, I did not appreciate the name calling and the accusations of cowardice and
                    stupidity any more than you appreciated my initial threats to complain to your web site
                    provider. This patriot fellow has done nothing but throw fuel on an already volatile situation.
                    I implore everybody to just think very carefully before writing or saying anything that you
                    may regret. Right now, there are more important things in this country to worry about than
                    senseless argument on the bulletin boards. I apologize to ALF members for lashing out on
                    September 11. There were extenuating circumstances that provoked some emotionalism on
                    my behalf.

                      To the individual who attacked me with the letters, I have no apologies sir / madam. I am not
                      a coward. I am not a fool. I am not stupid. I am not uneducated. I am not illiterate. I am not
                      sadistic to people or animals either way. However, I did answer my countries call to war in
                      the 60’s against communist aggression in Vietnam and I do not regret or apologize for any of
                      that. Nor will I stoop to your level and insult you on a personal basis as you did me with your
                      vicious attacks with your three e-mails. To you, sir / madam, I will answer no questions, or
                      have any further communications.

                      However, I will be more than happy to have a private progressive dialogue with somebody
                      else in your organization that will not insult me on a personal level, or allow themselves to be
                      swept up in incoherent emotionalism to the point where they make savage, uninformed
                      attacks of me and my character.

                      I urge all of you to deal with the worthy issue of animal rights with logic, persistence, and
                      most of all, through legal courses. It is only through working within the established legal
                      system that true progress can be made with any issue. Otherwise, the people in power will
                      never take you seriously and will discard your beliefs with tragic indifference. With that I will
                      stand down and let the matter drop.

                      Good day and good luck. ALF responder: Any comments written directly into your post like
                      this will, to some extent, reflect the views of ALF. We do not always agree with the folks
                      who post in this guestbook. And rarely do any of them claim to be members of ALF.
                      Occassionally we delete posts, but only for their lack of value, not their opinion.
Thursday 09/13/2001 3:46:13pm
             Name: weebler
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: "Hey dude don’t waste your breath on these LUNATICS==TheY BE just a bunch rich teenie
                    bopper; anti U.S. @#%$! bag
                    terrorists just like you said==They outta be put against the wall with the rest of them rag head
                    mofos="


                      ***hahaha thank god that your side has eloquent speakers like "The Patriot" while we have to
                      settle for Leonardo da Vinci, H.G. Wells, George Bernard Shaw, and the PETA brigade.


                      hehehe
                      :)


Thursday 09/13/2001 3:41:39pm
             Name: weebler
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: God, these folks get really tedious with their stupidity and lies.


                      "Dave" wrote:


                      >
                      >I came to your site asking specific questions and wanting to understand your
                      >organization's ideology.

                      **bullshit
                      you came to taunt and attack. You dont even have the integrity to be honest--but
                      then considering your line of work how can anyone be surprised?

                      I wanted to understand how you could go out of
                      >your way to break the law, harm your own species, and defend your actions.
                      >

                      ****bull. You came to shoot your mouth off.


                      >>and you are willing to cause harm and death to others for economic and
                      >misguided ideological reasons.
                      >

                      *****meaning yourself and the other scientists like yourself who believe that the
                      way to heal some is to harm others. That is what you do. You actually do have
blood on your hands--human and non human. Many humans have died from drugs that were
said to be safe--and were proven unsafe.

>I had nothing to do with the eggs. I was simply doing work on improving
>microscope resolutions and infrared response. You have no idea what I did,
>yet you destroy my equipment and assume that I was the researcher
>responsible for the baseline experiments in that lab.
>

**I am glad to hear that. :) You just made my day.


>I served two terms in Vietnam. I was at the battle north of Con Tien Fire
>Base. I have been wounded twice in battle. I won a silver star for
>dragging a wounded comrade off a ridge that was taking fire in 69. I was
>wounded when I did this, and had to use my teeth to pull him along.

**hahaha oh yeah
I believe you. :)
Tell you what Rambo--since you believe that killing innocent civilians in
foreign countries is justified to fight communism, why not sacrifice your own
life in a lab to fight cancer?
What? Fighting communism is more important than curing cancer?

>However, because it was not a chicken egg, or a cow, or a dog or cat, it
>must not count for anything.
>
******
wrong. You are being irrational bud. No one said it didnt count for
anything--just that THYE COUNT TOO! In your mind--only human life counts. In
ours--other life counts too.
Its like with racism. Racists believe only those in their "group," count. Those
that are against racism believe that ALL count.
That's our position. Your position is that of the racist.

>>Stupid cowardly and unethical people like yourself never learn.
>
>I am glad that you know me so intimately.
>

**I have met alot of people like you. You seem to be churned out from the same
cookie cutter.

>>Have a nice day
>:)
>I'm touched.

**yeah--touched in the head.
>
>>***What a fool you are.
>
>Yes I am. For asking legitimate questions on your web site and expecting a
>logical, non emotion filled discussion of your actions.


****next time you want a discussion dont start off by comparing AR people to
those who drive planes into buildings. Only those who fight for human rights
issues would do that(Palestine, Iraqi sanctions etc). Your side actually does
have blood on its hands. Lots of it. The lives of innocent beings who are treated
worse than the most hated criminals by you.
>
>
>
>I don't recall inquiring about Negro inner city poverty or unemployed white
>yuppies.


******er it was a comparison. You were asking us why we werent more concerned
about advertising our human rights position as much as our animal rights
position--because this is an AR site. It is about animal rights. There are already
lots of human rights pages. We dont need to advertise it.
Please think about it.

However, I do remember asking how you could justify hurting one
>species in the defense of another.

****ASK YOURSELF that question. How can you justify mutilating, maiming and
killing scores of members of other species? What did those animals do to you?
Absolutely nothing. But what do you care? As long as you fill your wallet and
flatter your ego at the end of the day.


Sorry about the typo. It was late, I
>was tired and I had been thinking all day.
>

****Thinking all day? Um okay...




>
>I guess you must really, really be tired.

***Actually I put those typos in there deliberately to make you feel more
comfortable. Sometimes I have to reduce my communication style to accomodate
people in your field/and with your compromised intelligence.



>
>Thank you for answering all my questions so well. I had assumed as much
                      >about your organization, and you just confirmed all my suspicions.
                      >

                      ****** Hahaha! There you go. You first said you didnt come here to attack--but
                      now you admit it.

                      >"Have a nice evening"
                      >
                      **after what you told me about your lab
                      I WILL.
                      :D



Thursday 09/13/2001 3:36:44pm
             Name: A PATRIOT
            E-Mail: NONE Y'ALL BUSINESS
   Homepage URL: http://WWW.EATSHITANDDIE.COM
          Location: THE GREAT SATAN, USA
        Comments: Hey dude don’t waste your breath on these LUNATICS==TheY BE just a bunch rich teenie
                    bopper; anti U.S. @#%$! bag terrorists just like you said==They outta be put against the wall
                    with the rest of them rag head mofos==What With all that f**kin insults they sent you; and
                    the ton a misspellings they made; they’re nothing But a bunch a ball-less spinless; 2faced;
                    shitters that wouldn’t know how to sacrifice and serve their country if their worthless lives
                    depended on it==All they know what to do is f**k up other peoples property and lives for a
                    bunch of moF**kin Chicken Eggs==They don’t deserve NO RESPECT. EAT @#%$! AND
                    DIE TERRORIST FREAKS==




Thursday 09/13/2001 2:30:09pm
             Name: Eileen Cahill / ALF responder
            E-Mail: eileencahill@hotmail.com
   Homepage URL: http://www.koreaherald.com/SITE/data/html_dir/2001/09/14/200109140011.asp
          Location:
        Comments: This is an article about the upcoming celebrations for World Vegetarian Day
                    in Seoul. They will take place on Sept. 22 and 23, and I hope to see many of
                    you there.

                      Here's the Internet address:

                      http://www.koreaherald.com/SITE/data/html_dir/2001/09/14/200109140011.asp



Thursday 09/13/2001 1:18:35pm
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments:
Comments:

            I came to your site asking specific questions and wanting to understand your organization’s
            ideology. I wanted to understand how you could go out of your way to break the law, harm
            your own species, and defend your actions.

            ***Some of us may have taken your "questions" and statements as threats rather than a
            honest and sincere search for answers.

            I had nothing to do with the eggs. I was simply doing work on improving microscope
            resolutions and infrared response. You have no idea what I did, yet you destroy my
            equipment and assume that I was the researcher responsible for the baseline experiments in
            that lab.

            ***I didn't assume you were the researcher and actually assumed you weren't. Most people
            doing research on embryos would know how to spell it, no matter how tired they are. No
            offense.

            However, because it was not a chicken egg, or a cow, or a dog or cat, it must not count for
            anything.

            ***You are obviously ill-informed regarding animal rights activists/animal liberationists. I
            know not ONE ARA who doesn't care a great deal about people. The concept of AR is that
            we establish basic rights and take into consideration the welfare of ALL species, after all, we
            too, are animals. For most ARA's, animal rights, human rights and environmental
            consideration go hand in hand.

            I am glad that you know me so intimately.

            ***Don't know you at all. Perhaps instead of coming to this board with insults and
            intimidation on your mind, you should have brought with you an open mind.

            Yes I am. For asking legitimate questions on your web site and expecting a logical, non
            emotion filled discussion of your actions.

            ***I was satisfied with the answers from the folks on the board, considering how the
            questions were asked. If you would like to redress your questions, I am willing to answer
            them.

            However, I do remember asking how you could justify hurting one species in the defense of
            another. Sorry about the typo. It was late, I was tired and I had been thinking all day.


            ***The same question could be asked of you. Tell you what, you give your answer first, then
            I'll respond. And please, specify "hurt" one species in defense of another.

            Thank you for answering all my questions so well. I had assumed as much about your
            organization, and you just confirmed all my suspicions.

            ***I would like to hear what those suspicions are. Frankly, you came to this site bitter and
            angry. Did you REALLY want to understand the ideology, or did you just want to blow off
            some steam?
                    You're up to bat...



Thursday 09/13/2001 6:56:42am
             Name: Dave Tritium
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location: Moscow, Idaho
        Comments: Below are excerpts from one of your members and my answer.

                    I came to your site asking specific questions and wanting to understand your organization’s
                    ideology. I wanted to understand how you could go out of your way to break the law, harm
                    your own species, and defend your actions.
                    >and you are willing to cause harm and death to others for economic and misguided
                    ideological reasons.

                    I had nothing to do with the eggs. I was simply doing work on improving microscope
                    resolutions and infrared response. You have no idea what I did, yet you destroy my
                    equipment and assume that I was the researcher responsible for the baseline experiments in
                    that lab.

                    >you would never put your own life on the line so youa re (sic) even more cowardly than they
                    are.

                    I served two terms in Vietnam. I was at the battle north of Con Tien Fire Base. I have been
                    wounded twice in battle. I won a silver star for dragging a wounded comrade off a ridge that
                    was taking fire in 69. I was wounded when I did this, and had to use my teeth to pull him
                    along. However, because it was not a chicken egg, or a cow, or a dog or cat, it must not count
                    for anything.

                    >Stupid cowardly and unethical people like yourself never learn.

                    I am glad that you know me so intimately.

                    >Have a nice day
                    :)
                    I’m touched.

                    >***What a fool you are.

                    Yes I am. For asking legitimate questions on your web site and expecting a logical, non
                    emotion filled discussion of your actions.

                    >.****God--you are such a fool. This is an animal rights site.
                    Do you expect to see concern for unemployed white
                    yuppies on a site devoted to negro(sic) inner city poverty?
                    THINK. Surely you could LEARN TO DO THAT AT
                    UNIVERSITY. Learn to spell embryo at least.
                    I don’t recall inquiring about Negro inner city poverty or unemployed white yuppies.
                    However, I do remember asking how you could justify hurting one species in the defense of
                    another. Sorry about the typo. It was late, I was tired and I had been thinking all day.


                    >**do you have a conscience for those that you hurt? You are the immoral one buddy. And
                    you make MONEY off the suffering you cause. Actually--you are worse than thse (sic)
                    terrorists because at least they were willing to kill themselves for their cause--you are way too
                    cowardly for that. You only sacrifce (sic) of the innocent. God, you make me sick.


                    I guess you must really, really be tired.

                    >you are way too cowardly for that
                    >You only sacrifce (sic)of the innocent.
                    >God, you make me sick
                    >cowards, and greedy sadists like yourself
                    >but you are too stupid to see that.
                    >What a fool
                    >You are a terrorist against Nature and humanity
                    >I assume you to be one of those thick-headed morons who couldnt make a coherent ethical
                    argument to wrestle himself out of a bag

                    Thank you for answering all my questions so well. I had assumed as much about your
                    organization, and you just confirmed all my suspicions.

                    ―Have a nice evening‖


Thursday 09/13/2001 4:12:35am
             Name: Pepper
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: What? Test tube T-Bone? Well what do ya know.. Dutch inventors are creating a way to mass-
                    produce meat by taking a small sample of brain cells from one animal, allowing then to
                    "grow" huge quantities of meat without factory farms or slaughterhouses.

                    Meriwether.. Where are you?



Wednesday 09/12/2001 11:47:53pm
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments:
        Comments:

                    After the events of this day, it struck me that your tactics are similar to that of terrorists. The
                    same mentality that rammed a passenger plane into a sky scraper, is one who could vandalize
                    the Washington State University Lab in which I had important work in progress. Now, I have
                    read the press releases concerning this act. The claims are that you were concerned for
                    embrio lives of chickens.

                    ***How you can possibly equate the mass murder of innocent people to the liberation of non-
                    humans or destruction of inanimate objects is beyond me!

                    Why is it I see no concern on your website for human lives, embrio or not?

                    ***First of all, this is a website dedicated to the freedom of all sentient beings. Secondly, you
                    didn't look very deeply into this website if you didn't find any concern for human lives.


                    You see, I feel you are a dangerous group. Right now, you limit yourselves to juvenile acts of
                    vandalism on faceless people you have never met. Nevertheless, you are hurting people. Does
                    that not bother you?

                    ***Perhaps hurting their wallets. I think saving a life is more important than the contents of
                    an animal user/abuser's wallet. I'd choose life over money any day.

                    Do you have a concience?

                    ***Yes, do YOU?

                    Someday, somebody is going to get hurt in one of your raids. It will be a well planned attack
                    but will go very wrong and either one of you or somebody else will get hurt or killed.


                    ***It hasn't happened in the history of the ALF. They must be doing something right.

                    At that point, you will find yourselves on the list with the rest of the Ben Laden's of this
                    world.

                    ***I certainly hope you weren't comparing animal rights activists with international terrorists.
                    That's just about the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.



Wednesday 09/12/2001 11:02:27pm
            Name: Jack B. Suconik
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL: http://www.animalsrighttolifewebsite.com
         Location:
         Comments: The current American tragedy has interfered (as it should) with a plethora of routine activity,
                   but not with the war on animals, or this writers determination to not be deterred, and expose
                   the resultant carnage. I am a resolute animal advocate. Many people and organizations have
                   received this message, which has generated a great many positive (and some negative)
                   replies. My site (above)pertains to a revolutionary book endorsed by qualified scholars, that
                   was written to conduce to a moral and legal transformation of the status of all animals-
                   broadly defined in America, and eventually other countries throughout the world. The
                   necessary condition of achieving that transition is the dissemination of relevant cogent truths
                   embraced by a veritable army of concerned people determined to liberate animals from
                   human tyranny. If you find this interesting, but are apprehensive or suspicious please go to
                   the link section page of www.animalpeoplenews.org or www.speakingout.org where you can
                   find-animals right to life-or animals right to life website-links respectively. Either link will
                   bring you to: http://www.animalsrighttolifewebsite.com

                      Yours for a more rational, less violence plagued world for both animals and man.



Wednesday 09/12/2001 5:52:16pm
            Name: The Cat
           E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Hi Dave,

                      Just how can you equate the deaths of thousands of people by, so far person/persons unknown
                      to the actions of animal activists. The perpetrators of this vile act were humans acting against
                      their own species. So far I know of no human who has died at the hands of animal activists,
                      but I do know of many activists who have died, or who have been seriously injured by the
                      protectors of animal abusers. We don't hate humans, we are human who oppose the abuse of
                      animals by humans. We don't have a membership, each person acts to his own conscience for
                      the liberation of species who are unable to protect themselves. Oh and by the way, just what
                      was your important work in your laboratory, do tell? ALF responder: Good question!




Wednesday 09/12/2001 5:39:02pm
            Name: weebler
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: After the events of this day, it struck
                   me that your tactics are similar to that of terrorists. The
                   same mentality that rammed a
                   passenger plane into a sky scraper, is
                   one who could vandalize the Washington State University
                   Lab in which I had important
                   work in progress.

                      ***What a fool you are. It is YOU and your side that are
                      the terrorists. You inflict harm on the innocent--in the
name of money and misguided ideology.



Now, I have read the press releases
concerning this act. The claims are that you were
concerned for embrio lives of chickens.
Why is it I see no concern on your
website for human lives, embrio or not?

****God--you are such a fool. This is an animal rights site.
Do you expect to see concern for unemployed white
yuppies on a site devoted to negro inner city poverty?
THINK. Surely you could LEARN TO DO THAT AT
UNIVERSITY. Learn to spell embryo at least.

You see, I feel you
are a dangerous group. Right now, you limit yourselves to
juvenile acts of vandalism on faceless people you
have never met.

***** Actually I dont feel but KNOW you are the one
who is dangerous. Right now your brethren work on
ways to combine genes from different species for crop experiments and release
them into the ecosystem. That is the worst form of
terrorism. Terorism against Nature--it affects all of us--not just office workers.



Nevertheless, you are hurting people.
Does that not bother you? Do you have a concience?

**do you have a conscience for those that you hurt? You
are the immoral one buddy. And you make MONEY off
the suffering you cause.
Actually--you are worse than thse terrorists because at
least they were willing to kill themselves for their
cause--you are way too cowardly for that. You only
sacrifce of the innocent.
God, you make me sick.

The U.S. is gearing up for a
tremendous crackdown on terrorism. You may not be at
the top of the list but you will be there.


**and you will be affected too. I am sure you would just
love to become a military state where civil liberities are
suppressed so cowards, and greedy sadists like yourself
can do things without having to answer to anyone.
Fortunately it will never happen--you will be harmed along
with the rest of us. Your own civil liberties will be
                      suppressed but you are too stupid to see that.



                      For now, I will be filing letters of
                      complaints to Lycos and your ISP about the harboring of a
                      web site that promotes violent
                      behavior and terrorist activities
                      amongst its members.

                      ***** What a fool. Yeah--they are going to take you
                      seriously AFTER they deal with the hundreds of groups
                      that are far more dangerous--and are fighting for human
                      rights.

                      Look to yourself.
                      You are the true terrorist. You are a terrorist against Nature and humanity.

                      Have a nice day.


Wednesday 09/12/2001 3:47:43am
            Name: Dave Tritium
           E-Mail: d_tritium@hotmail.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location: Moscow, Idaho, USA
       Comments: After the events of this day, it struck me that your tactics are similar to that of terrorists. The
                   same mentality that rammed a passenger plane into a sky scraper, is one who could vandalize
                   the Washington State University Lab in which I had important work in progress.ALF: We
                   feel there is a difference between targeting people, as Ben Laden does, and targeting "things"
                   to save lives. In fact, we think it is the opposite. Now, I have read the press releases
                   concerning this act. The claims are that you were concerned for embrio lives of chickens.
                   Why is it I see no concern on your website for human lives, embrio or not?ALF: The idea of
                   being the voice for the voiceless to to raise concerns that others might miss. It is not to
                   minimize concern for anybody else.You see, I feel you are a dangerous group. Right now,
                   you limit yourselves to juvenile acts of vandalism on faceless people you have never
                   met.ALF: Most of our operations are done by insiders, and are therefore not "faceless". Few
                   of the researchers we know have any concept of Design of Experiments, Response Surface
                   Methodology, or any valid statistical plan to minimize taxpayer costs or animal suffering.
                   Were you any different? Nevertheless, you are hurting people. Does that not bother you? Do



Tuesday 09/11/2001 11:45:45pm
             Name: deg
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: The cat: I did not come here to be dragged into debates, or have my priorities citisised. You
                  are the only one, it seems who is regarding my statements in totally the wrong way. Of course
                  I am against animal testing, why else would I come in here, ask questions, and have an animal
                  sanctuary at my home, where I take in and care for would be lab animals? I pay for their bills,
                  my B/F and I create homes which closely mimmick their natural environments.

                    I think you should pay closer attention to what you read before you begin quoting from, or
                    retaliating to, scientfic journals, myself or other people who write on this board. I was trying
                    to gain trust, I'll take my info elsewhere.



Tuesday 09/11/2001 1:17:50pm
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Come on Deg, I'm waiting for a reply.



Tuesday 09/11/2001 12:46:12am
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: You almost had me convinced

                    ***Convinced of what?

                    but with PETA's silly goof about the Shark Bill Boards, and your vandalism of WSU, I will
                    never listen or be persuaded by your nonsence ever again.

                    ***Obviously it is not nonsense if you were listening and were persuaded.

                    In retaliation for your lawless vandalism, I am going out this weekend and I am going to kill
                    about a hundred rock chucks with my 22. I plan to gut shoot them and watch them flop until
                    they die a seering and horible death. Every time you make a vandalism attempt, I will shoot
                    and kill a hundred rock chucks or a dozen cyotes or what ever else I can legally shoot and
                    kill.

                    ***Putting up a billboard (which was pulled, btw) and the destruction of inanimate objects is
                    a far cry from killing sentient beings. Normal people are not "nearly persuaded" to treat
                    animals humanely one minute and threatening to gut shoot them the next.


                    This blood is on your hands. Think about it the next time you decide you want to act like
                    lawless punks

                    ***Any bloodshed from those animals is on YOUR hands and YOUR hands alone! I
                    certainly hope you will rethink your position on this.
                      www.mentalhealth.org--there may be hope for you yet.



Tuesday 09/11/2001 5:48:13am
             Name: Andrew R
            E-Mail: aredman@indiana.edu
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments:


Tuesday 09/11/2001 4:35:08am
             Name: Dave
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location: Alpine Wyoming
        Comments: You almost had me convinced, but with PETA's silly goof about the Shark Bill Boards, and
                    your vandalism of WSU, I will never listen or be persuaded by your nonsence ever again. In
                    retaliation for your lawless vandalism, I am going out this weekend and I am going to kill
                    about a hundred rock chucks with my 22. I plan to gut shoot them and watch them flop until
                    they die a seering and horible death. Every time you make a vandalism attempt, I will shoot
                    and kill a hundred rock chucks or a dozen cyotes or what ever else I can legally shoot and
                    kill.

                      This blood is on your hands. Think about it the next time you decide you want to act like
                      lawless punks.

                      ALF Responder #4: This individual has the mentality of a child less than 7 years old.

                      "I don't like how you play, so I'm taking my toys from the sandbox and going home!"

                      Rather than debate he chooses to kill. What a shameful world we live in.



Tuesday 09/11/2001 1:02:28am
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Hi Deg,

                      Where are you coming from, are you supporting animal abuse or not. Do you support
                      negligent science or diligent science. Animal experiments kill humans do you agree with this
                      or not. Seems to me that you support the pharmaceutical corporation policy. The MIMS
                      periodical includes some 300 pages of drugs. All of which sites adverse reactions in humans
                      from minor to life threatening side effects. These are "safe" drugs according to the
                      pharmaceutical companies who peddle these drugs on the market. These are the same
                      companies who make a "killing" on the stock market.
Tuesday 09/11/2001 0:28:50am
             Name: rina
            E-Mail: rrrina@aol.com
   Homepage URL: http://www.rrrina.com/
          Location: brooklyn, nyc
        Comments: excellent website ... very encouraging!ALF response: Nice website, yourself. The link
                    to the website The War On Faith is hilarious. Thanks.



Monday 09/10/2001 10:48:49pm
            Name: deg
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: Tim,hiya, I wasn't critising all those involved with animals, such as horses, I was just pointing
                   out that these things are an ever day occurence, and some poeple are so de-sensitised to these
                   types of activities and behaviours, that they accept it as the norm. I wasn't labelling everyone.

                      -The cat: I presume the article about brain damage was referring to the recent study on lab
                      rats? The environnment didn't 'make' them brain-damaged, it just didn't activate the parts of
                      the brain which would have been stimlated had the rats been in their native conditions, note
                      as well, that in the article, stereotypical behaviour wasn't documented until 1996, due to the
                      animals not being observed to do such behaviour during the day. Thats funny, cos after I'd
                      had the lab rats I rescued for only 1 hour, I noted several different types of 'abnormal'
                      behaviour, one being the fear of females!! I contact the magazine that ran the article, and they
                      were a bit shy about giving out any further info. Strange that!!




Monday 09/10/2001 6:42:59pm
            Name: Tim
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location: Maple Ridge,B.C.
        Comments: What I find "frightening" about those like the A.L.F.,is thier "political influence" on local
                    governments. ALF response: Since we have only a few known members (in jail), ALF has no
                    political power. But I will assume you are referring to PETA, and other AR
                    organizations.They are using it to "sway" these bodies into taking away the simpliest of
                    rights, in regards to control and handling of ones own animal.
                    In the horse industry, they would "destroy" the entire industry, putting thousands of people
                    out of work and place the animals being cared for in greater danger of abuse, neglect and
                    cruelty.
                    These people would "legislate" our right to properly care and handle the horse, on the basis
                    of nothing more than thier "own perceptions of right and wrong". I believe in animal rights,
                    however if you "eliminate" those who are trying to provide proper care and treatment of the
                    animals and place them in the same postion as those who are doing injustice to the animals,
                    then what have these groups gained?
                   Are there problems and cruelty in the horse world, yes, but in throwing a "blanket of blame
                   over all of those involved in the industry, these people also lose the support of those like
                   myself who are intersted in seeking to improve and change standards and on going pratices.

                   A good example is that of what the animal rights movement tried to do to the horsemen in
                   Redmond Wash.,in '99. They tried to "eliminate" the use of horses in that area, through "slick
                   wording" in thier proposal to the local council. If they had done so, the enire horse industry
                   may have suffered. I strongly support that of the articles written in Western Horseman,"
                   political Watch". At least here we are able to read about the issues and have a means to look
                   to protect our rights as horse owner, breeder, trainers, handlers ect.

                   If these groups(A.L.F.)were able to care for the animals they "rescue", do they have the
                   people and resources to do so, or are the animals to "fend for themselves? If this is
                   "freedom", then, I would consider this to be more "cruel, abusive and cold hearted" than
                   anything.ALF response: I agree with you that the animal rights movement needs to prioritize
                   its efforts, and that many folks, even folks calling themselves "ALF", waste energy doing
                   things that don't help much. Folks who act without thinking, usually on emotion, scare the
                   he!! out of me, too. Unfortunately, in today's media-driven society, some of the stupidest acts
                   get attention. It's almost like the old saying, "there's no such thing as bad press". While I
                   know folks who criticized the stupidity of the animal rights activist who threw paint on
                   someone wearing fur, for the first time in their lives these folks doing the criticizing thought
                   about the reasons behind the passion of the activist. Today, the vast majority of folks (take
                   your own poll, if you like) don't know what a veal calf endures. My point being, that for all
                   the foolishness, the masses are learning the truth. I agree with you that some of the collatoral


Monday 09/10/2001 6:05:50pm
            Name: The Cat
           E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: Hi all,

                   Sorry but I don't agree that laboratory animals are "cared" for, to me the kidnapping,
                   imprisonment, torture and eventual death doesn't equate to care, not in my book, ever heard
                   Michelle Rocke's experiences of working inside HLS USA, her comments read like an animal
                   Auschwitz, in fact that was daubed outside HLS UK by activists.ALF response: The point
                   that was made was regarding priorities. We would like to stop all animal testing, but we need
                   to start by liberating the animals that are going to die. Some animals in labs are the control
                   group, and nothing is done to them. While it would be better if they were never there, they
                   are not suffering as bad as others. We would appreciate any opinion by knowledgeable
                   people regarding where to start. We get tired of hearing from people that rescuing "some" is
                   never enough. Anyone heard of Yamanouchi, breaking dog's legs without an anaesthetic.
                   Toxicology tests etc. Animal breeders such as Hillgrove, Consort and now The Hall's guinea
                   pig death camp have all been targeted and closed. Inside Shamrock was a nightmare, all
                   primates destined for torture and death. Recent "research" states that because of laboratory
                   conditions, animals may be so brain-damaged because of unnatural environment that "testing"



Monday 09/10/2001 4:32:18pm
            Name: DREW
          E-Mail:      neil_bartlett_campaign@yahoo.com
   Homepage URL:       http://www.geocities.com/neil_bartlett_campaign
        Location:      uk
       Comments:       NEIL IS ON HUNGER STRIKE UNTIL THE GOVERNMENT BAN HUNTING AND
                       VIVISECTION WITHOUT COMPROMISE.
                       TODAY IS DAY 13 OF THE STRIKE. PLEASE VISIT THIS SITE AND SHOW YOUR
                       SUPPORT TO NEIL AND SPREAD THE WORD... ITS UP TO US...thanks DREW
                       www.geocities.com/neil_bartlett_campaign



Monday 09/10/2001 3:48:03pm
            Name: deg
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: I think as well, if you look at so-called- leisure activites, you will find a huge amount of
                    animal 'wrongs'.ALF response: A large part fo the animal rights movement is to change the
                    laws regarding cruelty to one's own pets. It's now what ALF does, but we support it. I know
                    of at least one horse that got its leg caught in the bars of an American style stable, (bottom
                    half wood, top half vertical bars). The horse apparently hung like that all night, until someone
                    found him in the morning, having dislocated his shoulder, and rubbing the fetlock down to
                    bone (he was destroyed by the vet). Horses are beaten into submission, made to go without
                    water before shows, to lose the vital inch in height to comply with a height restricted class.
                    I've seen a pony beaten with a lunge whip for not being able to jump a fence. When I
                    intervened, I was told to f*** off. (thats another story). But then, you get people, who like
                    me, cherish the bond with animals. I have a horse, he has a recurrent problem with the bones
                    in his hoof, most of the time, he is ok, but if he is sick, I stay with him all night, I go without
                    food to pay his vet bills, people think I'm crazy, and maybe their right, but my view.. their
                    crazy to put themselves on a higher level than the animals that they really are.



Monday 09/10/2001 2:28:20pm
            Name: ALF responder
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: To deg,
                    Your comments are valid. The majority of lab animals are basically cared for (albeit in an
                    unnatural caged way), and many are replaced if they are liberated. We know this because our
                    most angry and active members are "insiders". The vast majority of our actions are not
                    random. Our top priority is animals that are "used up" and left to die. Liberating them usually
                    goes un-reported. Our next priority is animals that won't be replaced due to "deadlines" on
                    worthless research.



Monday 09/10/2001 1:13:22pm
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
          Location:
         Comments: Excellent point Deg. Does anyone know if an animal breeding facility has been targeted for
                    liberations, etc? I would be very interested in knowing this. It would be a great thing to see an
                    HLS-type campaign be established against a lab animal breeding facility. Another idea would
                    be for a concurrent liberation of a breeding facility and testing lab.



Monday 09/10/2001 12:43:43am
            Name: deg
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: BD, your comments are very valid, I am simply suggesting that by taking animals TODAY,
                   they are merely replaced the next day by more, and so more are bred and more suffer. To deal
                   with this at the root of the problem. You have to target the animal breeding centres
                   themselves, and then they would have NO animals to send away!



Monday 09/10/2001 12:40:14am
            Name: deg
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: In response to 'the cat', I must diagree
                   to some extent, and say that animals are, at a basis level, well cared for. The use of sick or
                   injured animals in scientific research would render the results invalid, so they are duty bound
                   to care for the animals.
                   Before anyone gets on their pedistal, I am in no way advocating the use of animals for
                   research, merely pointing out some facts. I have re-homed several lab animals, from several
                   sources, and although stressed from their traveling and handling experiences, they were/are
                   otherwise perfectly healthy. The only observable problems are 1)Rats indicate stereotypical
                   behaviour ofen seen in lab rats (head weaving, bar chewing, obsessive grooming), 2)All (lab)
                   animals are very suseptible to tumours, as they are selectively bred to be this way.




Monday 09/10/2001 12:31:39am
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
         Comments: Perhaps you're correct that I didn't read your post properly. What I got out of your post was
                   that you have "concerns" about animals being liberated. My comment was animal
                   liberationists are concerned with the animals being used/abused NOW. I know if I were being
                   the one experimented on, I would want someone to come rescue me. What do you suggest is
                   done about the animals in the labs now, TODAY? Do we let them suffer and die? Not only
                   does it save the lives of the animals who are presently being tortured, but also sends a
                   message to the "scientific" community and the general public that what is happening is wrong
                   and some folks won't sit on their butts and do nothing about it. Yeah, let's all work on this
                   together, as stated, from EVERY angle. I sincerely thank you for helping the cause.




Monday 09/10/2001 12:15:25am
            Name: deg
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: BD, I think you haven't read my comments properly, I suggest you go back and read them
                   again, I made no mention that people shouldn't work together. The more voices united, the
                   better.



Monday 09/10/2001 10:44:52am
            Name: The Cat
           E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: I'm with Paula on this one, for years I have been writing to the powers that be about the
                   cruelty and dangers of animal experimentation both to animals and humans. The only
                   response I get are the usual bureaucratic reassurances that the animals are well cared for
                   (that's a joke) and that this is the only way to cure human diseases. Direct action subject to an
                   individual's conscience breaks through this smokescreen. New press from Media Watch
                   News Letter is interesting. Thirteen medical journals across the world including The Lancet
                   UK and The New England Journal USA accuse pharmaceutical companies of using their
                   money to tie up academic research with legal contracts to prevent free reporting on the
                   efficacy of the companies products. Perhaps the fact that the side effects of animal based
                   drugs for human consumption are killing not only animals but people is encouraging the
                   honest professionals to take a stand against these pharmaceutical giants and their satellites. In
                   June this year Simon Festing a well known promoter of animal experiments debated with Ray
                   Greek MD and lost the debate. Strangely the only report of this debate was in one leading
                   broadsheet. Funny this that the press went silent as did the idiots who cut up animals in the


Monday 09/10/2001 4:50:04am
            Name: Sharon
           E-Mail: sharonmcknight@hotmail.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location: RR4 Box 121Kittanning Pa. 16201
        Comments: After reading about your organization in The Pgh. Post Gazette, would like to aid in any way.
                  Am member of PETA and ASPCA (Ed Blotzer). Have 16 rescued cats/rabbits. Thank you,
                  SharonALF response: Thanks for caring about animals. We are an anonymous group that
                  does not need money to operate. You can support by being vegetarian as much as possible,
                  and convincing others to consider animals feelings. Much of this philosophy is argued against
                  with the same FAQs, and the simple responses are on this website. Please keep in touch.




Monday 09/10/2001 1:26:02am
            Name: Paula
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: Deg

                    I use to think exactly like you. But the reality is that such discussions take place behind
                    closed doors out of the public's eye. I have said on a previous post that we need discussions at
                    higher levels between qualified individuals such as yourself, because it is scientific fact that is
                    going to end vivisection--few people care about morality and ethics if they believe that their
                    loved ones can be cured from cancer by animal experiments.


                    Obviously animal rights in general is a complex subject and has to be dealt with in a complex
                    manner, and that involves those discussions that you speak of,and campaigning and using the
                    media to educate the public,and helping those animals who are suffering now. There may
                    very well be scientists, and doctors in particular, who want to see a better way to test drugs
                    for human use, but there are some who do not, and who will go to any lengths for the
                    continued use of animals, even when they know they are getting nowhere as several or even
                    more vivisectors have admitted already. In this case let's just say "money talks" and "sadists"


                    Once you have been in the AR movement for a long time, and you watch your own
                    government whitewash reports of animal cruelty your opinions on hhow to deal with things
                    change.

                    There has to be changes in the animal rights movement. But the main change is about
                    bringing scientific fact to the public, and the truth about vivisection in particular. And that's
                    where qualified people such as yourself come in. You will not be seen as a hippy animal
                    rights campaigner, but as a professional who the scientists cannot ridicule like they attempt to
                    ridicule the average campaigner.



Monday 09/10/2001 1:03:27am
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments:
         Comments:

                      Deg:

                      What is wrong with animal welfarists, animal rights activists and animal liberationists
                      working together?

                      It would seem logical that if we work from every angle we accomplish more.

                      Folks who work to liberate animals from abuse and certain death are working for the animals
                      NOW--present time.



Monday 09/10/2001 0:47:20am
            Name: deg
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: Paula: It was never my intention to state that it would be a compromise, but gaining trust is an
                    important issue which must be confronted. Scientists ofen view animal activists as a threat,
                    and most would welcome the opportunity to discuss using alternatives to animals. Looking
                    for ways to improve housing conditions,and lessen the NEED to use large numbers of
                    animals would one day, lead to the abolishment of animal testing completely. I gained the
                    trust of several fellow scientists, and instead of going in the 'back door', I walked right
                    through the main entrance!



Monday 09/10/2001 0:34:52am
            Name: Paula
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: Deg

                      You make some very good points. The animal rights movement will welcome any
                      improvement in conditions for the animals but there is always a danger in compromising
                      which is that once you campaign for better conditions it's like saying "It's alright to
                      experiment on animals as long as they are comfortable". It gives the public the wrong
                      impression. As far as vivisection goes I believe it is better to get the truth to the public and
                      campaign for complete abolition. The problem is that as soon as you compromise, unless you
                      make your intentions totally clear, you may have very well lost the war.



Monday 09/10/2001 0:30:14am
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments:

                      To "Superior Being":
         Comments:



                      The only thing you are superior at being is an a$$. The school system has obviously failed
                      you. I suggest a refund.



Monday 09/10/2001 0:22:36am
            Name: deg
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: As a qualified Zoologist, who refuses to do any type of work that involves animals, I am a
                    little concerned about the liberation of lab animals. Once taken, they are replaced, ofen within
                    24 hours, by the animal breeding centres that supply such companies, thus more animals
                    suffer just as much as the ones you are trying to save. I am in no way condemning your
                    actions, but there are other ways to make people sit up and listen, and find alternatives. I
                    rehome lab animals that are surplus to requirements, but are unable to be sent back to the
                    original breeding centres once they have left. This preventing them from being unneccessarily
                    culled, and at least they had, or have a happy, safe, caring home. It would also be very
                    worthwhile to see if you can, in some way, try and alter the conditions in which lab animals
                    are kept. This is not as difficult as it sounds. Companies all over the country have to keep lab
                    animals in the same conditions, to ensure continuity of research results, and avoid any
                    anomolies that maybe due to differing housing conditions. They are beginning to find that
                    rats have abnormal brain functions due to their surroundings, and work is now in progress to
                    find a way to imrpove their housing conditions. If you can get involved in that, and improve



Sunday 09/09/2001 11:48:48pm
             Name: superior being
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: I cun remember scool. I use to have meat and potatos evry day for dinner. It wos luvly. just
                    like rare steak with blood. Once i went past the sloterhouse and heasrd the pigs skweeling. i
                    thought it woa funny and i had bacon the next day for brekfast.ALF response: I think you
                    remember the school building, but not the contents. Thanks for showing us that meat is "brain-
                    food". If you want to offend us you'll have to do better. Maybe tell us how you roll around in
                    blood and suck it off the floor....



Sunday 09/09/2001 11:05:41pm
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail: aleycats@btinternet
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Hey "Superoir being" you can't even spell your own name. Add to my previous comments, go
                    back to school or you might recognise the word as "skool".
Sunday 09/09/2001 10:33:11pm
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: No BD, what you cleared up (or established) was the fact that the American Indian, like his
                    white brothers had different lifestyles, some preferred veggies, some preferred meat, (most
                    ate both).
                    Again it is not a waste of life if the "great spirit" gave that life to you. Better stick with your
                    "angy white man act" at least there you can speak with some intelligence.


Sunday 09/09/2001 10:10:10pm
             Name: superoir being
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: I called myself superior being becose I am an human and am superior to animals. I have the
                    right to kil them if I want to. I am highly intilligent compard to them and it is my right as a
                    superior being to end there lifes. ALF response: If you want to use intelligence as a guideline
                    for who should live and who should die, I'd advise you not to include spelling or grammar as
                    part of the guideline.



Sunday 09/09/2001 6:50:43pm
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Hi all,

                       "Superior Being" don't suppose you'll visit again, superior beings generally don't get on too
                       well with their "intelligent literary pieces" being criticised, makes them feel inferior. My
                       comment for what it is worth, stop taking those animal tested drugs, dangerous to humans,
                       even the "superior" variety and get checked into a mental health facility. In your case I fear it
                       may be too late.



Sunday 09/09/2001 6:31:35pm
             Name: anti-speciesist
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: speciesism is the worst form of discrimination, really.

                       The repy on that human calling him/herself "superior" is good.

                       (If "superior" happens to look here again: you can see yourself as superior if you want. You'll
                       die also, even though you consider yourself "superior" - to WHAT...
                       You are superior to the ones you eat?
                       and that form of opression makes you "superior"?

                       This kind of human logic you have is sickening, but that makes you feel "superior"
                       AGAIN...: Your logic is that of being a nuissance to rationality.

                       That there are so many who share your idea of superiority wont help its wrongness.

                       oh, and: Even if think it wont have consequences for your arse anyway, you don't want to
                       comprehend the consequences - cos you wanna be a nuissance, still you'll get the
                       consequence too: Your own life as a "superior" human makes no sense within a world that
                       runs according to your own logics. Thats why you have to suck rationality.




Sunday 09/09/2001 5:54:17pm
             Name: a friend
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Lilla:

                       There is no justice for these animals, "just us."



Sunday 09/09/2001 4:16:03pm
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments:
                     Lilla, from one Cherokee to another, you are really out in left field. (That's a polite way to say
                     your full of it).

                       ***Thanks for clearing that up for all of us.

                       The American Indian used animals everyday, the difference is, we didn't waste!

                       ***I've already enlightened you regarding this matter. I think you're losing your short-term
                       memory.

                       Everything was used. If you hunt fish or trap, and don't use it all then you waste, and that is
                       wrong, if you do use it all, and there is no waste, then there shouldn't be a problem.


                       ***It's a wasted LIFE. Because you use most of the animal doesn't make it right, especially
                       when it's not necessary for survival.


Sunday 09/09/2001 3:51:17pm
           Name: mark
          E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
        Location:
       Comments: Lilla, from one Cherokee to another, you are really out in left field. (That's a polite way to say
                  your full of it). The American Indian used animals everyday, the difference is, we didn't
                  waste! Everything was used. If you hunt fish or trap, and don't use it all then you waste, and
                  that is wrong, if you do use it all, and there is no waste, then there shouldn't be a problem.




Sunday 09/09/2001 3:32:12pm
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments:
                     You are all assholes.

                     ***Hmmm...What an intelligent comment. Thanks!

                     Why do you care so much about animals?

                     ***Why do you care so little?

                     They don't mean anything, some don't even know they are alive.

                     ***Some humans "don't even know they are alive." What's your point?

                     They were put on this earth to serve humans. That is their function, their purpose in life.


                     ***That's your misguided OPINION.

                     They are totally useless for anything else.

                     ***Totally useless to who? You? I think you're totally useless, what do you suggest I do
                     about that?

                     Get a life the lot of you.

                     ***Geez, another ignorant comment. Come back for a visit when you've got something
                     worthwhile to say.



Sunday 09/09/2001 3:27:28pm
             Name: LILLA
            E-Mail: pywak2@yahoo.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location: NEV.
         Comments: As a well known saying goes..."harm none"! Karmic Payback IS a @#%$!! Indian Americans
                   believ and practice... kill NOTHING that is living, NOTHING that can look you back in the
                   eye! You take the soul with you, when you take a life. I believ humans who harm animals are
                   LOWER BEINGS, BELOW ALL animals. MOST animals are in touch with their 6th
                   sense,MOST humans are NOT! And what you harm, YOU BECOME! Like I said, KARMIC
                   PAYBACKS A @#%$!!!! This IS truly hell on earth, be

                       cuz, animal experimentation is STILL going on.I would like a world where every human who
                       ever did vivesection or tortured or took the life of an animal,
                       would be condemned to human KILL pounds,
                       where they would first experience the same pain they inflicted. Yeah, that's
                       justice. What makes SO MANY humans think they are above animals, when ALL animals

                       communicate from a higher intelligence?!
                       Humans use 10% intelligence, they'v to-
                       tally lost touch with the higher mind;
                       the UNconscious. And KARMIC LAW RULES.
                       THANX, a CHOCTAW/CHEROKEE.



Saturday 09/08/2001 6:22:16pm
              Name: the superior being.
             E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: You are all assholes. Why do you care so much about animals? They don't mean anything,
                     some don't even know they are alive. They were put on this earth to serve humans. That is
                     their function, their purpose in life. They are totally useless for anything else. Get a life the
                     lot of you.ALF response: "True happiness requires fidelity to a worthy purpose." Apparently
                     this poster cruises the www and insults anything he doesn't understand. I'll bet he's happy and
                     his parents proud!



Saturday 09/08/2001 2:28:42pm
              Name: Mandy Bleasdale
             E-Mail: bleasdale.family@kencomp.net
   Homepage URL:
           Location: Lancashire
         Comments: Keep up the good work!!


Saturday 09/08/2001 3:31:34am
              Name: mark
             E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Cat, I don't anything about this except what you posted, but unlike some people here, I am
                     willing to do my own research, and when I am done, I will make a comment. However, for
                     the record, if what you said is legit, I am on your side.
Saturday 09/08/2001 3:20:40am
              Name: ALF
             E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Gwen,
                     We caution every would-be ALF member to think. As you stated, generalizations about Zoos
                     don't paint an accurate picture. Generalizations (even this one) can be misleading. Thank you
                     for reminding us!



Saturday 09/08/2001 3:00:02am
              Name: Gwen
             E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Hi everyone,

                       First of all I just wanted to say how great the work ALF does is! I commend you all. It is
                       great to see people taking a firm stand in what they believe in. I also wanted to share some
                       thoughts with you. Like the vast majority here, I too am opposed to zoos, aquariums, ect.
                       However do not always judge a book by it's cover. I have some friends that own a small zoo.
                       These are 2 wonderful people that love animals and have devoted their lives to them. It is a
                       small private zoo that survives by their savings, donations, and entrance fees. A large
                       percentage of the animals that reside here were abused animals that they have taken in and
                       given a loving home. One good example is Velvet, a liger that they adopted several years
                       ago. Velvet was found by Animal Control after her owners abandoned her. She was found
                       chained in the basement of their home where she had been left with no food or water. My
                       friends took her in, nursed her back to health, and gave her a home. She is just one of the
                       animals that came to them in these conditions. They live very meagerly and the majority of
                       the money they earn goes back into the zoo for improvements, vets, ect. While the majority of
                       zoos exploit the animals and use them as a means of getting rich there are some like this one.



Saturday 09/08/2001 1:56:26am
              Name: Alexandra Yurkiw
             E-Mail: ayurkiw@laolaltd.com
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: This summer, I visited the island of Hvar in Croatia on the Adriatic coast. I was sickened by
                     the widespread abuse of dogs and cats. Although not everyone abuses and kills animals, there
                     seems to be a cultural practice of treating cats the same way many cities in the West treat rats.
                     I stayed in the residential section of the city of Stari Grad. Every night I listened to cats being
                     tortured and killed. I saw kittens tied up in airtight plastic bags and thrown in garbage cans. (I
                     was told this was one of many methods of controlling their cat population), I watched cats
                     intentionally run over by cars and I listened to two week old kittens cry all day and night after
                     they were dumped off on vacant land without their mother and left to die.
After listening to a kitten cry all night and afternoon I found it behind a museum near the
house where I stayed. Mind you this was in the center of a densely populated town. Not one
person came to rescue or feed this kitten. Many of the employees at the tourist bureaus and
business owners or managers who spoke English denied any knowledge of these practices.
Others would say they were from elsewhere in Croatia and animal treatment was better in the
rest of the country. However, if I spoke to them at length, they would occasionally slip and let
on that similar abuses also occurred in their hometown. Others were more truthful and
admitted that they had a terrible problem with the cat population. Common methods of
controlling the cat population were taking cats, especially kittens, on ships and throwing them
into the sea. Another type of animal control is done in the winter, when the tourists are gone.
That is when the government places poison throughout the town. I was told this form of
animal control had been practiced for over twenty years.




Over the past ten years, owing purebred dogs has become fashionable in Croatian society.
During my stay I learned that many people take these dogs to the coast using them as a status
symbol only to abandon them when their holiday is over. When I asked the town’s
veterinarian if there were any laws against cruelty to dogs and cats, I was informed that there
wasn’t. His excuse was that Croatia is a poor country and doesn’t have the means for better
animal treatment. But, establishing laws protecting cats and dogs isn’t expensive. Croatia,
might be considered to be a developing country but is much more developed than other
countries in Europe, such as Byelorussia or Ukraine. Homelessness is uncommon. If
Croatia’s society and government refuse to change their treatment of animals, perhaps people
can help persuade them to do so. Since one of their biggest industries is tourism, the threat of
a boycott might get their attention.




To observe these practices, one has to live with the natives in their neighborhoods (they keep
the tourist areas clear of strays.) Speaking a Slavic language was helpful so that I could
understand what the people said.



Every small action will help. Please take the time to let the Croatian government know you
do not approve of this behavior. Also spread the word to others who might be able to help.
Posting this letter on a web site or reprinting it in a newsletter will help spread the word. The
situation on the Adriatic coast of Croatia is horrible. Please spread this information, inform
everyone you know.

Thank you, Alexandra Yurkiw

SOME CROATION CONTACTS:

1) Ministry of Tourism
e-mail: ministarstvo-turizma@zq.tel.hr 7) Embassy of the Republic of Croatia

Ambassador Drago Kraljevic

2) Ministry for European Integration Via Luigi Bodio 74-76

Mirjana Mladineo, nee Tomic 00191 Rome

Tel. +385 (01) 6303196 Italy

Fax +385 (01) 6303141 E-mail: veloposlanstvo rh@mclink.it

Address: Ministry for European Integration Tel:0039 06 36307650, 36307300

Ulica grada Vukovara 62

10000 Zagreb 8) Embassy of the Republic of Croatia

Croatia Ambassador Milan Ramljak, dr Ahornstrasse 4

3) The office of the President 10787 Berlin, Germany

of the Republic of Croatia Tel.: 0049 30 23628951, 23628955

Pantovcak 241

10 000 Zagreb 9) Embassy of the Republic of Croatia

Croatia Ambassador Andrija Kojakovic

21 Conway Street

4) Croation Tourist Office in Austria London WIP 5HL

Address: Operngasse 5 United Kingdom

A-1010 Wien e-mail: amboffice@croatianembassy.co.uk

Tel.: +43/1/585 38 84 Tel.: 004420 73872022

Fax: +43/1/585 38 84-20

e-mail: office@kroatien.at 10) Embassy of the Republic of Croatia

Ambassador Andrija Jakovcevic

5) European Union, Bruxelles 229 Chapel Street

Ambassador Drobnjak, Vladimir Ottawa, Ontario K1N7Y6

Avenue des Arts 50 Canada
                      B-100, Bruxelles, Belgium e-mail; info@croatiaemb.net

                      E-mail: croationmission.ec@pophost.eunet.be Tel.: 613-562-7820

                      Tel: 0032 2 5000930 Fax: 613-562-7821



                      6) Ambassador Muljacic 11) Embassy of the Republic of Croatia

                      Embassy of the Republic of Croatia Ambassador Ivan Grdesic

                      Amalistraat 16 2343 Massachusetts Ave., NW

                      NL – 2514 JC Washington DC 20008, USA

                      The Hague Tel: 202-588-5899

                      The Netherlands Fax: 202-588-8936

                      Tel: 0031 70 362 3638



Friday 09/07/2001 9:51:05pm
              Name: The Cat
             E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Hi all,

                      Search your conscience, do you agree with animal abuse, yes or no. Is it right or wrong that
                      we continue to abuse animals for our pleasure for "science" or our palet. Why kill for
                      financial gain. Our society is based upon animal denigration, this is our justification when we
                      kill, torture and exploit any species that does not have a human face.



Friday 09/07/2001 9:11:02pm
              Name: anti-speciesist
             E-Mail:
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Thanx cat.
                     found it.
                     Some prewritten protesletters (engl and spanish) are now on:
                     http://www.veganswines.de/protest_tordesillas_letters.htm



Friday 09/07/2001 8:18:11pm
              Name: Alyce
          E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
        Location:
       Comments: What's new guys? Did you all go back to college and don't have time to e-bicker?

                      *** No, I'm still here. Where ya been Meriwether out buying more floss and a ball?



Friday 09/07/2001 6:28:26pm
              Name: The Cat
             E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Hi all,

                      Nice one Mark re. your comments about Chris's intelligent posting. Care to comment on my
                      posting about the "spectacle" in Spain due to take place on 11th September. La Tora de
                      Vega, a bunch of morons with spears chasing a bull around a field piercing every part of it's
                      body until it dies. Now there's entertainment for the human.



Friday 09/07/2001 6:17:20pm
              Name: mark
             E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: See what happens, I go away for a few days and you guys go "nutso", lol. First of all Chris, if
                     you can't enter into an intelligent conversation, they go away, BD, your comment was just
                     about as bad, and this other guy, what was his name? Ah yes Neil. Come feel my gun, and
                     you will find that I really don't need a gun as a phallus symbol, and I have plenty of friends.




Friday 09/07/2001 6:16:21pm
              Name: The Cat
             E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Hi Anti-speciesist,

                      Thanks for your interest, I receive press releases from IDA, suggest you contact IDA via their
                      e-mail address re. this disgusting display of blatant human cruelty towards innocent and
                      defenseless animals. I notice silence from Mark and Meriwether, maybe they agree with me
                      for once. Chris, your comments "blow me away" are you in therapy?



Friday 09/07/2001 5:47:07pm
              Name: Meriwether
          E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
        Location:
       Comments: Chris,

                      BD is just blowing smoke. Don't mind him.

                      What's new guys? Did you all go back to college and don't have time to e-bicker?



Friday 09/07/2001 4:01:35pm
              Name: neil
             E-Mail:
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: oh yes, and that pillock called gunculture is very probably sexually inadequate, and requires
                     guns and the taking of life to make him feel better, as he tries to ignores his numerous
                     shortcomings. don't even bother trying to deny it gunculture. you probably even failed at
                     school, and found consolation in your lack of real friends through weapon magazines.ALF
                     response: We'll cut you a break neil, since you are new to this board: We delete posts that
                     only insult individuals, but we applaude posts that attack ideas or thinking processes.




Friday 09/07/2001 3:54:48pm
              Name: Neil
             E-Mail: mdraven2000@yahoo.co.uk
    Homepage URL:
           Location: West Yorkshire, England
         Comments: I think the ALF are doing what is right, but if they want to gain more support, they're going to
                     have to keep more control over some of their members. apart from that, they are totally right,
                     and I'd like to join.ALF response: There is no official membership, thus no "control" over
                     anyone. It might help to think of it as a philosophy or way of life. Either you accept the
                     concepts, or not, but the ideals don't change because of some folks' behavior.




Friday 09/07/2001 12:51:33am
              Name: BD
             E-Mail:
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments:
        Comments:

                    Here is a perfect example of what the AR movement is fighting against, blatant cruelty and
                    slaughter of sentient beings. BTW, just two days ago I helped a pigeon that had flown into
                    the side of a building. He had become paralyzed from the encounter and was in very bad
                    shape. I took him to my vet and he was euthanized, not because his life wasn't worth
                    anything, but because he was in pain and was "broken beyond repair."


                    "Gunculture Chris," I wouldn't suggest coming to my neck of the woods toting your gun. You
                    just might find yourself without a whole lot of friends. You can take that statement any way
                    you want to.
                    ;)



Friday 09/07/2001 7:49:03am
              Name: CHRIS
             E-Mail: gunculture@hotmail.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location: SCRANTON PA
         Comments: I'D JUST LIKE TO TELL YOU TREE HUGGING VEGETABLE EATERS THAT THE
                     SHOOT IS ALIVE AND WELL. SEPT 2001 I SHOT PIGEONS OVER THE WEEKEND
                     AND I REALLY MISSED YOU TREE HUGGERS. YOU MADE THE SHOOT ;)


Thursday 09/06/2001 8:28:38pm
             Name: anti-speciesist
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Hi Cat!

                    I coulnd't find the alert about that toro de la Vega thing on the IDA site. Can you post a
                    link???? Cos I'd like to pass that message on.




Thursday 09/06/2001 2:07:31pm
             Name: Good News
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments:

                    179 Animals LIBERATED From Vivisection Lab

                    Media Release
                    August 29, 2000

                    Wellington, CO - Under the cover of a New Moon, members of the
                    underground Animal Liberation Front (ALF) raided a toxicology laboratory
                    in Wellington, in northeastern Colorado, and rescued over one hundred
                animals from painful toxicology testing.

                A communique from the Animal Liberation Front was received by the
                ALF Press Office late last night, claiming responsibility for the early
                morning raid Aug. 28 at Genesis Laboratories.

                The ALF say they liberated 116 animals, including 168 Bobwhites
                and 11 ducks, all of which were live-trapped from the wild and
                forced into cages and torture. These birds, and many other animals
                left behind were to suffer the painful torture of toxicology testing.

                "No animal should be used to test the toxicity of any kind of human
                product," states ALF spokesperson David Barbarash. "Be it for
                drugs, food, cosmetics, or any consumer product, there is simply
                no moral or ethical justification for torturing wild animals in toxicology
                experiments."

                The ALF state in the Communique, "Genesis Laboratories performs
                wasteful, redundant and cruel toxicology experiments on hundreds
                of wild animals annually. Under the guise of "science", vivisectors
                at Genesis live-trap animals in the Colorado wilderness, confine them
                to inhumanely small cages such as those we found inside the lab,
                and poison or otherwise torture these innocent creatures to death.
                179 animals are now out of this torture chamber."

                The Communique also details how the activists were intending to
                free all the animals, including more birds, prairie dogs, squirrels,
                ferrets, and rodents, but were forced to abandon the raid after
                inadvertently tripping an alarm. All 116 rescued animals have
                been released back into the wild.

                "There's no doubt in my mind, they would have rescued every last
                animal," says Barbarash. "These brave people are also very
                professional, and have repeatedly shown their capabilities."

                This raid comes on the one year anniversary of the ALF liberation of
                Annie, a Macaque primate who had spent all of her twenty-seven
                years as a Long Island, NY, pet store mascot in a tiny cage. The
                last time the ALF liberated animals from the horrors of vivisection
                was on Jan. 05, 2000, when 23 rabbits were rescued from
                Washington State animal breeders R&R Rabbitry.

                The ALF is an underground movement dedicated to liberating
                animals from all places of abuse and torture, and destroying animal
                abusers' property. In the past twenty years, no injuries or deaths
                have ever occurred in the course of an ALF action.



Wednesday 09/05/2001 10:13:36pm
            Name: GHOSTDANCER1890
           E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
        Location: THE OHLONE NATION,CALIFORNIA
       Comments: TO ALF,
                  GOD BLESS YOU AND ALL WHO ARE INVOLVED
                  IN THE STRUGGLE! MAY THE GREAT SPIRIT
                  BLESS ALL!

                     THE GHOSTDANCER



Wednesday 09/05/2001 7:13:05pm
            Name: The Cat
           E-Mail: aleycats@btinternet.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Hi all,

                     Check out In Defence of Animals site, just had urgent press about a "spectacle" known as
                     Toro de La Vega. This involves a mob armed with spears who chase a bull around a field
                     stabbing it in any part of it's body until it finally dies. This is scheduled to occur on 11th
                     September in Tordesillas Spain. In 2000 the bull was speared for 35 minutes until it died.
                     Sick or what. Spanish ALF please assist.



Wednesday 09/05/2001 1:46:33pm
            Name: Vladimir Antonov, PhD, biologist
           E-Mail: swami@mail.ru
  Homepage URL: http://www.swami-center.org.
         Location:
       Comments: Peace to you! Thanks for your struggle!
                   Please, pay attention to the materials at our site www.swami-center.org.
                   We, the scientific-spiritual group in Russia, speak there about the same and more: our
                   meaning of life, ecology, methodology of spiritual development, structure of the
                   multidimensional space, nature of God and human being, the methods of God cognition, etc.

                     You could republish something or everything from there - for more wide dissemination of
                     these knowleges.
                     If you can read Russian -- there is another site with much more information: www.swami.ru .

                     Take our love.ALF response: this group promotes a vegetarian lifestyle.


Wednesday 09/05/2001 3:21:40am
            Name: justin williams
           E-Mail: tiger1975uk@yahoo.co.uk
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
         Comments: i havent done anything for a while but its good to get back and to help the animals that really
                   need it without us they have no hope but with us we will win the fight one day and all those
                   poor animals which died in vain will be remembered and those we rescue will live a free and
                   happy life thanks to the people and groups who care enough to fight for what is right




Tuesday 09/04/2001 8:04:31pm
             Name: Mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: NEWS RELEASE (LOL)
                    Sept 1st at noon, the Dove hunting season opened nationwide. No doves were released, all
                    were wild and winging their way along when BAM! They found themselves on the dinner
                    table. Jeesh!



Tuesday 09/04/2001 6:56:59pm
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Labor Day Liberation: 750 Ducks Released
                    ________________________________________

                      FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
                      September 3, 2001

                      North American Animal Liberation Front Press Office
                      Contact: David Barbarash, 250-703-6312


                      Hanover, IL - In an anonymous communique, the Animal Liberation Front claimed
                      responsibility for the liberation and release of 750 ducks and an unknown
                      number of ducklings from Whistling Wings, a duck breeding facility in Hanover,
                      Illinois early this morning. Located at 113 Washington St. (815-591-3512),
                      Whistling Wings is one of the largest duck breeding facilities in the U.S. They
                      breed and ship ducks and ducklings to hunting and game farms, taxidermists, and
                      research facilities across the world.

                      The A.L.F. activists "opened all of the cages and barn doors for the ducks to
                      escape to freedom," states the letter received by the A.L.F. Press Office.

                      The Animal Liberation Front believes that ducks and all waterbirds and animals
                      have an inherent right to live their lives free from pain, suffering and
                      torture. The ducks bred at Whistling Wings are destined for a short life of
                      suffering and death when they are sent to hunters, taxidermists, and
                      vivisectors.
               Earlier this year, on April 28, the A.L.F. rescued over 230 ducklings from the
               Cornell University Duck Laboratory in Eastport, NY. In that action the A.L.F.
               physically removed all the animals and brought them to a sanctuary. It is
               unclear at this time whether there are any connections between Whistling Wings
               and the Cornell Lab.

               The Animal Liberation Front is an international underground movement of
               compassionate people who work anonymously to rescue animals from places of
               abuse, and to cause financial damage to animal abuse industries through a
               strategy of non-violent property destruction. In the twenty years of A.L.F.
               actions there has never been any injury or death caused to any animal or human
               in the course of their actions.

               The A.L.F. Press Office is an independent above-ground organization which
               supports the A.L.F. by communicating with the media regarding actions and
               history of the movement. Further information is available at the number below.

               The following is the text of the Communique:

               In the early morning hours of September 3rd, 750 ducks and a countless number
               of ducklings were liberated from Whistling Wings (www.whistlingwings.com) in
               Hanover, Illinois, the largest "producer" of live Mallard Ducks. They are a
               supplier for hunters and researchers whose methods of shipping baby ducks
               include UPS and the United States Postal Service.

               We cut holes in the fences, opened all of the cages and barn doors for the
               ducks to escape to freedom. It is our hope that they will find a new
               satisfying life on the nearby Mississippi River.

               A.L.F.



Tuesday 09/04/2001 12:27:42am
             Name:
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: URGENT NEWS ADVISORY
                    September 2, 2001

               PLAINVIEW, LONG ISLAND, NY -The Earth Liberation Front (E.L.F.) has officially
               claimed responsibility for sabotaging a new bio-tech building at Cold Spring
               Harbor Laboratories on August 21, 2001. This is the second time the E.L.F. has
               targeted this facility in just over one year.

               A communique sent by the E.L.F. stated, "Here activists inflicted heavy
               damages to their exterior air filtration and coolant systems, by smashing
               thermostats and computer instruments, and damaging extensively insulation to
               coolant pipes. The building was donned with slogans denouncing genetic
               engineering, one reading 'tampering with biodiversity = extinction', the other
               reading 'Love E.L.F.'. Upon retreat windows were also smashed."
                    The Earth Liberation Front is an international underground organization that
                    uses direct action in the form of economic sabotage to stop the destruction of
                    the natural environment and exploitation of life. Since 1997 in North America
                    alone, the E.L.F. have caused over $40 million in damages to entities profiting
                    from the destruction of life.

                    The communique continued, "This was a warning shot from the Long Island
                    community to the Labs, that the technologies they develop have potentially
                    drastic and lethal consequences. Be forewarned that we are watching your every
                    move, and if you thought for one second that you could keep your new Plainview
                    lab location under wraps you were gravely mistaken. We watch your every step.
                    E.L.F."

                    The E.L.F. previously struck Cold Spring Harbor Laboratories on July 13, 2000,
                    destroying two acres of genetically modified corn and greenhouses containing
                    seedlings.

                    Cold Spring Harbor Laboratories are responsible for research related to the
                    "discovery of hybrid vigor (which) led to increased corn production and to a
                    revolution in crop breeding". This is now more commonly referred to as "the
                    green revolution" and identified by thousands of scholars and activists from
                    the Global South as a root cause of the starvation and depletion of soil and
                    bio-diversity occurring at an unprecedented pace around the planet.

                    Working together to make the world a better place.



Tuesday 09/04/2001 5:09:59am
             Name: Alyce
            E-Mail: alyce@extremezone.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Number of People Killed
                    by Meat Consumption in 1999
                    by F.A.R.M.

                    August 15, 2001 -- In 1999, 1.29 million, or 54%, of all U.S. deaths were attributed to
                    diseases for which consumption of animal products represents a substantial risk factor.


                    The estimate was obtained by adding the number of deaths caused by each of 14 diseases for
                    which physicians specializing in the relationship between diet and health have identified meat
                    consumption as a substantial risk factor. The number of 1999 deaths by each disease came
                    from the National Vital Statistics Report published in June 2001 by the National Center for
                    Health Statistics of the U.S. Public Health Service.
                     Identification of meat-linked diseases was conservative. Thus, cancer of urinary organs was
                     not included, although a plant-based diet reduces the risk. For 'ill-defined' and 'other'
                     diseases, the number of deaths included in the total was prorated according to the ratio of
                     meat-linked deaths to all other deaths.

                     Source: USPHS, National Center for Health Statistics "Deaths: Preliminary Data for 1999,"
                     National Vital Statistics Report, June 26, 2001


Tuesday 09/04/2001 1:14:56am
             Name: Lisa Marie
            E-Mail: myrebadog@worldnet.att.net
   Homepage URL: http://www.idausa.org/campaignsf.html
          Location:
        Comments: If you have not already, I urge all compassionate people to join this campaign and let IDA
                    know that you support them.

                     Visit: http://www.idausa.org/propertyf.html and sign the "Property Pledge Form."

                     To learn more about this campaign, visit:
                     http://www.idausa.org/campaignsf.html and click on "Animals As Property."

                     I'm reprinting the pledge for those who do not have web access. If you want to join this
                     campaign, but do not have web access, contact Laurie Lown, Director of IDA's "They Are
                     Not Our Property, We Are Not Their Owners" Campaign, by e-mail at laurie@idausa.org or
                     by telephone at 503-293-1853.

                     The pledge states:

                     Whereas, I believe that all animals deserve to be treated and respected as individuals with
                     feelings, needs and interests of their own, and whereas I believe that animals are not
                     commodities or property to be bought, sold, disposed of, or discarded, I hereby pledge
                     always:

                     --to live my life with an ethic of respect and consideration for all animals, rather than one of
                     ownership in which animals are considered mere property.
                     --to adopt and rescue rather than buy or sell animals.
                     --to represent myself as a caretaker, guardian, companion, or friend of
                     animals rather than their owner or master.
                     --to strive at all times to make the world a more just and compassionate
                     place for all beings, human and non-human alike.



Monday 09/03/2001 4:56:39pm
            Name: Alyce
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: Alyce,
       Comments:

                   With respect to your last post replying to mine, you have convinced me that your are
                   completely insane.

                   *** wrong

                   You propose to eliminate Bison as well as cattle.

                   *** Meriwether I thought Bison was some other kind of cow or something..I thought you
                   meant eliminate it from the diet not kill the poor things...

                   Bison, atleast all those around Yellowstone are wild. Yep, we should just blow em all away to
                   make more room for farmers to grow ingredients for your Boca Burgers.

                   *** You know me better than that Meriwither. I would never think of such a thing. There is
                   plenty of room to grow soy without harming wildlife.

                   What are Boca Burgers anyway? Food for people who want to be meat eaters but don't have
                   the balls to be.

                   *** Meriwither please understand that I liked meat. I was a meat and potatoes kid. But why
                   kill for the taste when you don't have too. There are so many products on the market that taste
                   good and are much better for you than meat.
                   In case you haven't noticed your product is killing people.

                   BD, Back to your old self huh? Somebody says your full of it and doesn't agree with you and
                   the only response you have is "No, I'm right listen to the article I found that was written by
                   some overeducated Ph.D. that hasn't spent a day in the field." Yep, you're right, you're
                   right....people in the audience would think you are a women you like so much to be told
                   "You're right".

                   ***YUK Meriwether. Feel better now?



Monday 09/03/2001 1:49:09pm
            Name: Meriwether
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: Alyce,

                   With respect to your last post replying to mine, you have convinced me that your are
                   completely insane. You propose to eliminate Bison as well as cattle. Bison, atleast all those
                   around Yellowstone are wild. Yep, we should just blow em all away to make more room for
                   farmers to grow ingredients for your Boca Burgers.

                   What are Boca Burgers anyway? Food for people who want to be meat eaters but don't have
                   the balls to be.
                       BD, Back to your old self huh? Somebody says your full of it and doesn't agree with you and
                       the only response you have is "No, I'm right listen to the article I found that was written by
                       some overeducated Ph.D. that hasn't spent a day in the field." Yep, you're right, you're
                       right....people in the audience would think you are a women you like so much to be told
                       "You're right".ALF response: Normally I would delete a response with childish insults and
                       nothing constructive said, but I'm in a bitchy mood and I'll leave it. Sorry Meriwether, readers
                       are going to get a peek at your steel trap logic.




Monday 09/03/2001 6:51:30am
            Name: mark
           E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: You surely don't take that site serious do you? If so, you are so gullible!ALF response: I
                    agree with Mark. Just like the bonsaikitten website that got a lot of traffic, or the nazi ans hate
                    websites that get a lot of traffic, they are trying to be offensive to make money. It works.
                    Don't tell others to "see the awful site". It's what they want.



Monday 09/03/2001 6:01:19am
            Name: CensoreD
           E-Mail: redparrot@sympatico.ca
  Homepage URL: http://n/a
         Location: Canada
        Comments: I'm a very angry animal lover
                    visit www.puppyfarm.com and see why!!
                    (these sick freaks are actually farming dogs for food, in America!!)


Monday 09/03/2001 4:18:13am
            Name: mark
           E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: Yep chickenshit anonymous, people kill animals, always have, always will. Even some of
                    "your sides" proposals would kill animals if "you" were to have your way. In fact, if "you"
                    had your way (or many of you) a lot of different species of animals would become extict due
                    to "your" fantasy management practices. Care to "prove" me wrong?, or tell me how that isn't
                    true?ALF response: The website on which this guestbook resides is ALF. We have no
                    wildlife management plan at all. Of course, we realize that if there is no plan, some animals
                    will die a natural, vicious death. We're not naive. We are concerned about individual lives
                    and don't care about survival of particular species. Most of us are against expensive programs
                    like "save the condors" which cost millions to save a few lives. It is another side of the coin
                    of "speciesism". To most of us, a bird is a bird, a buzzard is a buzzard.
Monday 09/03/2001 0:42:06am
            Name: Paula
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: It is the word "replacement" that suggests animal ingredients etc are necessary e.g meat
                    replacement, when it is not necessary to have a meat replacement. It is simply a choice to get
                    protein and iron from meat or from plants/grains/beans. In some parts of the world they may
                    describe meat as a tofu or soya replacement for example.

                      I do not like to use the word alternative either but I can't think of another word to use when
                      talking about animal experiments etc.



Sunday 09/02/2001 9:23:45pm
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Hi ALF Responder,

                      I've made my peace with BD. An alternative way to go to work, by foot, by bike, by tube, all
                      valid. No alternative to animal research. Not valid research, no alternative. Maybe it's a
                      cultural thing. ALF response: Must be a language barrier. Alternative means "something
                      else". To have no alternative means to do it. The articles explain this.




Sunday 09/02/2001 7:05:42pm
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Hi all

                      Recent news, Christiaan Barnard the "famous" pioneer of heart surgery, has died of a heart
                      attack. The same guy was responsible for the deaths of numerous animals to "perfect" his
                      procedures. What goes round, comes round.



Sunday 09/02/2001 6:47:27pm
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Hi all,
         Comments:

                      Sorry BD, recent postings about guns has offended you, on a different note. I've checked out
                      the ALF website and in animal testing I note the word "alternative" I object to this word. It is
                      the gift of the vivisector, alternative implies credibility in the accepted establishment "animal
                      model" Please ALF get rid of this word, animal experimentation has no scientific value. It
                      exists to protect pharmaceutical companies from litigation should their drugs harm humans.
                      Animal experiments make money for pharmaceutical companies and those with vested
                      interests, cages, food, restraining devices, even the wheels on the cages etc. Adverse reactions
                      to drugs is the fourth biggest killer in humans. There is no "alternative" to animal testing, it's
                      either negligent science or diligent science. Come on ALF get rid of that word.ALF response:
                      First of all, "alternative" refers to "alternatives" to animal testing, ipso facto: ways to avoid
                      all animal testing. I guess I don't understand your concern. Secondly, "alternative" is not our
                      word, it comes from other publications. Just as we don't like vivisection, avoiding the word
                      would make it hard to talk about. Referring to BD's request to avoid gun control
                      conversation, I never felt that he was "offended". It was only a polite request to stick to the


Sunday 09/02/2001 1:54:36pm
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Let's keep the subject to what this board relates to (animal liberation and animal rights.)
                     There are forums to discuss gun control and this isn't one of them. ALF response: Amen. I'm
                     sure folks can find plenty of topics on this website to discuss. Those are relevant topics, and
                     in addition, if you mae a good point (for or against) we'll add it.




Sunday 09/02/2001 4:20:03am
             Name:
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: And guns don't kill animals, people kill animals



Sunday 09/02/2001 1:42:18am
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
         Comments: For every one who is not responsible with a gun, there are a a thousand who are. If you
                   outlaw guns, then only the outlaws will have guns. That has been proven, and common sense
                   tells you it's true. ALF response: Although I have no position on gun control, all that has been
                   proven is that your repeated use of the word "proven" is unique to you. Since everyone
                   knows that no such theory has been "proven" you lose a lot of credibility. After-all, you
                   common criminal has no regard for the law. Columbine and all of those other school
                   shootings, AND the postal shootings are @#%$! good examples of irresponsible people
                   having guns, and the innocent, who should be able to defend themselves didn't. You can bet
                   that had a teacher or teachers had gun(s),columbine would have made the news but twice,
                   once to report the incident, and the other to report the obituary of those two common
                   criminals who killed all of those kids. Remember, guns don't kill people, people kill people.




Saturday 09/01/2001 7:25:12pm
              Name: edwina shachar
             E-Mail: freeuk.com
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: so much to say but there are not enough words to convay.



Saturday 09/01/2001 6:59:10pm
              Name: DREW
             E-Mail: freeneilbartlett@yahoo.com
   Homepage URL: http://www.geocities.com/freeneilbartlett
           Location: uk down south
         Comments: My best friend Neil Bartlett was arrested tuesday morning, for 5 counts of allegedly making
                     bomb threats to companies that are involved in abuse of animals and environmental issues. i
                     know he is a very strong supporter of the ALF, but i dont think (and he has denied doing it)
                     that he has done it.hes not capable as hes not malicious and never EVER has been.and
                     couldnt be even if he was paid a million £.hes the nicest guy you could ever meet who loves
                     animals.
                     and hes in prison as of yesterday facing these charges. FOR YOU. so show your support to a
                     fellow animal lib guy, and sign the campaign guestbook at the above website address. and if
                     you can show up to his hearing on thursday at worthing magistrates, i myself,and neil would
                     be so appreciative.
                     i know he didnt do it, the police are trying to fit him up knowing hes a weak target,as he
                     suffers panic attacks. neil has sued the police before in 1996 when he was wrongfully arrested
                     for conspiracy to commit GBH, (to do with animal rights)which if you could only see the size
                     of the guy youd know it was a crazy thing to arrest him for!now please, i know the ALF arent
                     terrorists.and i KNOW my friend Neil isnt either. PLEASE SUPPORT HIM, he wont last 5
                     minutes in lewes prison. and if he gets the 2-7years the police are trying to fit him up for,
                     thats one of you guys down, and one of my friends gone.PLEASE,HELP. DREW.



Saturday 09/01/2001 6:11:09pm
              Name: The Cat
             E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
        Location:
       Comments: And again, the Hungerford Massacre UK, another "nutter" with a license walked down
                  Hungerford High Street shooting everyone he saw, if this is the result of licensing what
                  happens if everyone has the automatic right to buy a gun. Good for the dealers but at what
                  price. My closest friend was murdered in Portugal because of a drunk who was in possession
                  of a gun. The Portugese police called it a "natural death". Thankfully in Manchester UK in a
                  jewel raid, he shot himself.



Saturday 09/01/2001 5:52:27pm
              Name: The Cat
             E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Further to my recent posting. Dunblaine sent shockwaves throughout the UK. Licensed gun
                     owner, slaughtered children and teachers in school. No doubt the person who sold this guy
                     his guns made a "killing".



Saturday 09/01/2001 5:26:58pm
              Name: The Cat
             E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Hi Mark,

                     Yet again you've got it wrong, guns are not outlawed in UK, they are licensed. However this
                     does not stop the odd nutter obtaining a gun for his/her own agenda. Who would want a gun,
                     a gun is potentially a lethal weapon obtained for one purpose and don't tell me defense. I
                     seem to remember the Columbine massacre mentioning only one incident, was the result of
                     an irresponsible gun owner. How many more are there. Give someone a gun and they will kill
                     eventually. Yet another human money earner, second only to drug dealing. Recent press is the
                     tragic story of a policeman's family, murdered by him before he killed himself. The police
                     force knew about his past violence and allowed him to continue his career. Cover up or what.
                     Don't tell me that the force is not corrupt. There are rotten apples in every barrel not only in
                     UK.



Saturday 09/01/2001 4:57:33pm
              Name: mark
             E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
        Comments: It is obvious the police here in the states are leaps and bounds ahead of the UK, if that kind of
                  thing still goes on! But if you REALLY want to talk about how "bassackwards" the UK is
                  look at what happened when they outlawed guns. Both the rate of violent crime and petty
                  crime increased, whereas here in the states when we gave ALL people the right to carry a
                  firearm those crimes were cut virtually in half. All I said was I never saw a guy go to jail who
                  didn't swear he was innocent.



Saturday 09/01/2001 1:09:44pm
              Name: Paula
             E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Mark

                     You obviously know nothing at all about sociology.

                     You talk about us being the ignorant ones, and then you come out with all this @#%$! about
                     the law being just. Do you know how many people in British prisons have a mental health
                     disorder?
                     The police arrest innocent people like Neil because they are easy targets, when there are real
                     criminals walking the streets in my own neighbourhood.

                     Would you like me to tell you the interview tricks of the police over here? Do you know how
                     many innocent people have been terrified into confessions, or backed into a corner and their
                     words twisted? Especially blacks and Asians.

                     Later I'm going to give real examples of what has been said to people by the police in an
                     attempt to charge them with something. Including what was said to me.


Saturday 09/01/2001 9:42:50am
              Name: The Cat
             E-Mail: aleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Hi all,

                     Mark's obviously so absorbed in his "chosen" career that he fails to check the news, time and
                     time again the police get the wrong person, proven usually after someone spends years in
                     prison trying to prove otherwise. Maybe the police in USA are smarter and always get the
                     right person but I doubt it. Your arrogance in assuming that man can put right the damage he
                     has already inflicted on the ecosystem is quite mind blowing, the mind of man hasn't changed,
                     still greedy, still assuming superiority despite what we do to ourselves. Buy buy will become
                     bye bye.



Saturday 09/01/2001 0:57:33am
              Name: Mark
             E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
        Location:
       Comments: Never met a man in jail or put one there who wasn't innocent, or at least he said he was, in
                  spite of the fact that he was standing over the body with a smoking gun in hand. I guess the
                  gun did it all by itself
                  Yes Cat, man has been detrimental to the ecosystem. For about 25000 years he has has an
                  effect on it, and thus it is up to him to now manage it, since the animals obviously can't

                     And you, with the Coyote Post, hell more Coyote Skins than that sold at one fur sale last year,
                     you need to get your facts straight. By the way, they don't mate for life, like dogs, they go
                     from @#%$! to @#%$! although they do pair up in the spring. Still that doesn't stop a
                     "wondering eye". You paint the Coyote as a martyr, tell that to the cattle man who is trying to
                     save his stock!



Friday 08/31/2001 10:07:51pm
              Name: peace
             E-Mail: anir01@yahoo.com
    Homepage URL: http://www.highplainsfilms.org/fp_killcoyote.html
           Location:
         Comments: AIRING DATE : SEPTEMBER 5 , 2001

                     It is estimated that 400,000 coyotes are trapped, shot and poisoned
                     in America every year. Many are killed using your TAX dollars. Many more are killed for
                     FUN, CASH AND PRIZES !!!
                     KILL, KILL, KILL !!!
                     The United States Government and the very cruel Hunters trash them and want to exterminate
                     all of the Coyotes--who are as innocent and sentient as you and I, who mate for life , who
                     care for their youngs better than many human animals.......But some selfish folks just
                     don'tgive them the space to live ! EVERYTHING seems to be only for
                     human animals !

                     "Killing Coyote examines in depth the undeclared war on coyotes throughout the western
                     mountain states of the U.S. Filmmaker Doug Hawes-Davis has combined startling visual
                     images with varied and thorough interviews to reveal this failed and wasteful attempt to
                     suppress coyote populations."--the Wild Rockies Networker


                     NOTE: "Killing Coyote," a one-hour documentary about the war on coyotes in the West, is
                     being offered Royalty-Free to all PBS stations nationwide via satellite on September 5, 2001.
                     Full reviews, screening history, an edited trailer, and other information on the film are
                     available online at:

                     http://www.highplainsfilms.org/fp_killcoyote.html


                     PLEASE CONTACT: (if you live in the United States.)

                     Your local PBS Stations:

                     1. Go to: http://www.pbs.org/stationfinder/index.html and enter your ZIP CODE .
                     2. Click on your local station, and it will give you station info and email contact information.
                     Contact them now. CALL/EMAIL.

                     Please CALL them if you can to let them know ALL of your friends will be watching this
                     important show ! PBS love to hear this and more willing to air it.

                     3: PLEASE , PLEASE find more Zip Codes in your City, State and repeat the step 1 and 2 to
                     make more requests to all of the local PBS stations in your City.
                     If each Station gets more requests from different individuals, the more they are willing to air
                     the show.
                     Please click here to find more ZIP CODES in your City, State:

                     http://www.usps.gov/ncsc/lookups/lookup_ctystzip.html



Friday 08/31/2001 9:03:35pm
              Name: The Cat
             E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Hi Paula,

                     Totally agree, in all my years of campaigning I have never known of any police man/woman
                     who has been convicted of any offence against any ARA and yet I have witnessed many
                     offences including assault by officers on elderly people and children, riding over protesters
                     with horses etc. Sign the petition. I doubt very much if it will have any effect on the powers
                     who control Neil's future life but it will give Neil great support.




Friday 08/31/2001 7:46:47pm
              Name: Paula
             E-Mail:
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: I urge you all to go to Drews website and make your feelings known about Neils
                     arrest.

                     These corrupt people should not be allowed to get away with what they have done to him.
                     This arrest affects every person in the UK, animals rights campaigner or butcher.

                     This is not a country of free speech at all.

                     When the police have nothing to get you on, they'll amke something up, or arrest you for
                     something stupid like obstruction of the highway after pushing you on to it.
Friday 08/31/2001 6:11:12pm
              Name: Crystal Gill
             E-Mail: psychobrownbarbie@hotmail.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location: NYC
         Comments: I just wanted to say that I think your organization is awesome. I recently heard about action
                     the group took in New Paltz. A few friends of mine from Earth Crisis told me about you as
                     well. Keep doing what your doing it's great. If i can help with anything please keep me
                     posted. For the Animals, Crystal



Friday 08/31/2001 6:03:30pm
              Name: DREW
             E-Mail: freeneilbartlett@yahoo.com
    Homepage URL: http://www.geocities.com/freeneilbartlett
           Location: down south
         Comments: My best friend Neil Bartlett was arrested tuesday morning, for 5 counts of allegedly making
                     bomb threats to companies that are involved in abuse of animals and environmental issues. i
                     know he is a very strong supporter of the ALF, but i dont think (and he has denied doing it)
                     that he has done it.hes not capable as hes not malicious and never EVER has been.and
                     couldnt be even if he was paid a million £.hes the nicest guy you could ever meet who loves
                     animals.
                     and hes in prison as of yesterday facing these charges. FOR YOU. so show your support to a
                     fellow animal lib guy, and sign the campaign guestbook at the above website address. and if
                     you can show up to his hearing on thursday at worthing magistrates, i myself,and neil would
                     be so appreciative.
                     i know he didnt do it, the police are trying to fit him up knowing hes a weak target,as he
                     suffers panic attacks. neil has sued the police before in 1996 when he was wrongfully arrested
                     for conspiracy to commit GBH, (to do with animal rights)which if you could only see the size
                     of the guy youd know it was a crazy thing to arrest him for!now please, i know the ALF arent
                     terrorists.and i KNOW my friend Neil isnt either. PLEASE SUPPORT HIM, he wont last 5
                     minutes in lewes prison. and if he gets the 2-7years the police are trying to fit him up for,
                     thats one of you guys down, and one of my friends gone.PLEASE,HELP. DREW.




Friday 08/31/2001 6:00:25pm
              Name: The Cat
             E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Hi Mark,

                      Just read another one of your literary pieces in which you admit that humans have been
                      responsible for the destruction of the ecosystem, this somehow qualifies them to continue to
                      kill wildlife? That does not make sense, you should go into politics, you have all the right
                      qualities for success. Oh and by the way assisting heroin addicts to recovery or not as the case
                      may be, is not the profession to choose if you want leisure time.
Friday 08/31/2001 5:18:52pm
              Name: Alyce
             E-Mail: alyce@extremezone.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: And BD....don't try to push this one to the bottom of the page with your long windy posts that
                     make no point.

                      ***Jeesh Meriwether. I'm with BD here. I don't think you read it. Did you read the credentials
                      of those that conducted the study?


                      Alyce,

                      Mark is correct in statements about wildlife. As for the "little beaver" so helplessly filling his
                      lungs with water, most trapper's and animal damage control individuals use conibear's,


                      ***Most but not all. Conibear's suck too.

                      As for too many bloody cattle, what should we have instead, Bison?

                      ***No, Boca Burgers...

                      Or should we eliminate them (Bison)to.

                      *** Yes

                      It is not the cattle who are detrimental to the environment, it is the management practices of
                      the producers that is harmful to the environment. There are poor operators in every
                      profession.

                      ***Again the article BD posted was in reference to your profession as a whole.
                      Not just certain poor operators.

                      "You" just like to look at the extreme bad example that gives livestock producers a black eye.


                      *** Not true..

                      you know, I spoke with some bonehead that wouldn't eat meat because they "heard" that
                      animals were tough on the environment and more vegetables could be produced per acre than
                      pounds of beef or pork. What a joke.

                      ***Read the article Meriwether. The writers don't seem to me to be boneheads.



Friday 08/31/2001 5:00:49pm
           Name: The Cat
          E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
        Location:
       Comments: Hi Mark,

                      Alas in my line of business one does not earn a lot of money and yes I do the job because I
                      enjoy it. The point that I tried and obviously failed to make is AR is always misrepresented in
                      the press, we are human haters(as if one can hate one's own species mind you at times I could
                      be tempted)we put the life of a rat before the life of a child(the cry of the vivisector).None of
                      this is true. Many people who are AR are professional, law abiding people(not that class
                      particularly matters) who are so enraged at human abuse of animals that they choose to
                      oppose it either with violent/non violent means. An AR demonstration is a very mixed bag of
                      angry people of all ages.



Friday 08/31/2001 10:18:14am
              Name: BD
             E-Mail:
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         Comments:

                      Hey Meriwether:

                      I addressed your post. You know the one a few pages back that states EXACTLY what the
                      one under this post does. My two posts may have been long, but they made perfect sense and
                      they had everything to do with your non-factual post. Did you READ my posts or was it too
                      much for you to handle in one sitting?



Friday 08/31/2001 7:32:53am
              Name: Meriwether
             E-Mail:
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           Location:
         Comments: And BD....don't try to push this one to the bottom of the page with your long windy posts that
                     make no point.


                      Alyce,

                      Mark is correct in statements about wildlife. As for the "little beaver" so helplessly filling his
                      lungs with water, most trapper's and animal damage control individuals use conibear's, I can't
                      speak for Mark, but at least the ones I know do. The conibear is more deadly than the leg
                      trap. But the leghold is still plenty effective.
                       As for too many bloody cattle, what should we have instead, Bison? Or should we eliminate
                       them to. It is not the cattle who are detrimental to the environment, it is the management
                       practices of the producers that is harmful to the environment. There are poor operators in
                       every profession. "You" just like to look at the extreme bad example that gives livestock
                       producers a black eye.

                       You know, I spoke with some bonehead that wouldn't eat meat because they "heard" that
                       animals were tough on the environment and more vegetables could be produced per acre than
                       pounds of beef or pork. What a joke. You couldn't mass produce vegetables on the boulder
                       ridden plains of Montana(or other similar regions) if you tried. And in Florida, cattle have a
                       symbiotic relationship with citrus trees and the can run 30 cattle per acre in some regions.
                       *Tongue in cheek* But maybe it would be better to let the grass grow rampantly and burn of
                       a lighting started fire later on, leaving nothing gained from the surface of Mother Earth. Boy,
                       that would be smart wouldn't it. Yeah, you can learn a lot from a dummie.




Friday 08/31/2001 6:21:56am
              Name: Paula
             E-Mail:
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         Comments: And yes I did say speciest as if it's bad thing, because it is a bad thing, for the animals. It's
                     also a bad thing for humans when we examine diet related disease and the true costs of
                     vivisecton.

                       And havn't you said before that specieism is an ara made name, an invention that doesn't
                       really exist? Yet you seem to be taking pleasure and displaying pride when calling yourself a
                       speciest these days.



Friday 08/31/2001 6:14:58am
              Name: Paula
             E-Mail:
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         Comments: Yes Mark

                       It's ever so convenient to believe in God, isn't it?



Friday 08/31/2001 3:01:15am
              Name: mark
             E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Once again you prove your ignorance BD.
        Comments:
                     I have compassion for all things, period. Just because I choose to harvest them doesn't make
                     me less so. I take the excess so that the others will have a healthy enviornment in which to
                     live. That is called proper wildlife management. Once again two things you know little
                     (management) and nothing(wildlife) about! By the way, I noticed you drop our other debate, I
                     guess I can chalk that one as another mark in the W column.



Friday 08/31/2001 1:03:39am
              Name: BD
             E-Mail:
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         Comments: CAT. As far as money and pleasure are concerned why don't you quit your job and stay home
                     all the time. Then tell me your employment isn't about personal gain (=money&pleasure).


                     ***Of course everyone needs to earn a living. That is not what's in question, it's HOW you
                     earn a living. Killing other species for monetary gain or for pleasure is unacceptable.


                     Are you saying that because I am a trapper I have no compassion?

                     ***I'M saying your compassion is inconsistent. Why do you have compassion for some, but
                     not others? How do you draw a line on compassion?

                     Well I'll tell you what, I have compassion through knowledge, and yours is through
                     ignorance.

                     ***No, you see dollar signs on some animals, but claim to have compassion for others.
                     INCONSISTENT!

                     If your side were to win this race, we'll see how many animals "your compassion" kills. I'll

                     ***Both written by humans.

                     Animals are not human and therefore are not entitled to the same rights as humans. The only
                     rights animals are entitled to is the right of proper management and welfare through that
                     management, that includes hunting fishing and trapping in order to keep the populations
                     balanced and as disease free as possible.

                     ***And you once said Vegimite was a broken record?

                     Yes I am a spiecist and your point is?

                     ***You're no better than a racist.



Friday 08/31/2001 0:18:38am
              Name: mark
             E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
        Location:
       Comments: As for you MR Anonymous: God did, that is why man has dominion over the all the earth and
                  it's inhabitant. Animals only have a right to welfare. That means domestics are fed sheltered
                  and cared for until such time as they are to be used for the benefit of humans. Wildlife has a
                  right to it's envioronment, and proper management, since man has done so much to @#%$!
                  up the ecosystem, we became a part of that "food chain". Which means that hunting, trapping
                  and fishing are a necessary part of wildlife management. Again animals don't have any rights
                  beyond that. Call me a spiecist if you wish, "and your point is"? LOL, you say "spiecist" as if
                  it were a bad thing!




Friday 08/31/2001 0:13:12am
              Name: mark
             E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: No CAT, that is not what I think at all, and if that is what you do, then great! At this point
                     you probably do the job because you like it, but whether or not you will admit it, when you
                     first went into the field you thought of the money and all the leisure it would buy as well as
                     the bills it would pay. My entire point was that we all make money in order to pay those bills,
                     whether they be bills for pleasure items, or bills of necessity. There is no difference in that
                     respect between you and I.



Thursday 08/30/2001 11:49:50pm
             Name:
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Animals have rights. We deny them their rights because we have the power to do so. To
                    assume that it is up to humans to decide what rights animals do and do not have demonstrates
                    not only that humans are speciest, but foolish.

                      Humans are entitled to welfare and rights, just as non-humans should be as well.

                      The question is, who gave humans the right to decide that non-humans don't have any rights.
                      Humans have no more rights for their lives than animals should have for theres.




Thursday 08/30/2001 8:24:26pm
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail: alleycat@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Hi Mark
         Comments:

                      Interestingly enough many people have accused me of disliking humans, they are incorrect.
                      My professional career includes teaching children who have been excluded from mainsteam
                      education, social work with sexually abused children, managing residential homes for people
                      who suffer from disorders of the brain and currently people who have drug and alcohol
                      problems. If I leave my job I abdicate my responsibilites to my clients and that I will not do.
                      Your comments are based on the presumption that AR people are unemployed morons and do
                      not care about people, they are terrorists and a danger to the establishment. This is
                      establishment propaganda and you swallow it.



Thursday 08/30/2001 7:37:09pm
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: CAT. As far as money and pleasure are concerned why don't you quit your job and stay home



Thursday 08/30/2001 7:34:59pm
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Hi Mark,

                      I take it that you are too embarrassed to reply.



Thursday 08/30/2001 7:30:03pm
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Propaganda and lies are your department not mine. As a general rule trappers ALL
                    TRAPPERS prefer to use a conibear over a foot hold for beaver.
                    Beaver breed in jan, kits are born around April, most trappers won't trap beaver until January.
                    By then the kits are fully capable of fending for themselves. That's proven time and again as
                    there are colonies I have farmed for 20 years now, and I am still trapping the same beaver
                    every year.
                    Fact, I am the typical trapper, so my numbers would reflect about what other trappers have.

                      Exceptions to the rule are indeed acceptable. By the way, if another trapper is having
                      problems with yotes chewing then they are using the wrong type of trap.
                      Beaver will not be able to hold their breath under excertion for 18 minutes, just like you can't
                      hold your breath when you run.
                     BD, your above post if posted anywhere other than an AR site would draw guffaws, giggles
                     and incredulous looks. You have just shown that you are indeed an Armchair Wildlife
                     Manager who knows little about management, and nothing about wildlife, and even less (if
                     that were possible) about trapping. I thought a good rule of thumb was to know your enemy.




Thursday 08/30/2001 6:03:56pm
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Hi Mark,

                     So I take it that you support the abuse, torture and murder of any species that financially
                     benefits humans or that pleases the humans dinner plate. AR is about extending compassion
                     beyond humans, I take it you don't agree with that either. Animal abuse comes down to two
                     issues, pleasure and money. Don't talk to me about conservation it's human arrogance.




Thursday 08/30/2001 3:34:52pm
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: 1. This proves your ignorance about beaver. By the time trapping season rolls around, those
                    Juveniles are right at a year old

                     ***Breeding season for the beaver begins in Jan. or Feb., and the kits are born in April, May

                     BTW, did everyone know that beaver pairs usually mate for life?

                     By the way, beaver can HOLD their breath for up to 18 minutes (great lung capacity, they
                     don't smoke)but not in a Conibear trap they can't, and this is the primary trap of the beaver
                     trapper.

                     ***Yeah, I did know beavers can hold their breath for up to eighteen minutes, that's eighteen
                     minutes of struggle. I happen to know that the drowning method is your favorite.


                     Seldom is the foothold used, and when it is, it is put on a drowning rig. Now picture this if
                     you will, your a beaver, and you are exerting yourself fighting the trap, I don't think you will
                     last 18 minutes. I never said death was pretty, but it makes skinning them a lot easier.


                     ***Seldom used? Is that YOUR experience, or does that go for the entire trapping world?
                     Ain't that nice that drowning the animal makes it easier for you to skin them? Once again, you
                     just "proved" your an a$$.
                     2. Coyotes as a rule DO NOT chew. I never said there weren't exceptions to rules. I beleive
                     you got this from the BMP study, and the trap was experimental, it didn't work, we don't use
                     it.

                     ***No, "as a rule" is not acceptable. Perhaps in YOUR experience, but you cannot say this
                     for all others. BTW, no, I didn't NOT get this from the BMP study, but rather from some
                     posters (trappers) from a certain website.

                     The 99% statement comes from pure fact based on my own experience from the the

                     ***"perhaps" 99% in YOUR experience, but you made it sound like this was a stat for ALL
                     trappers. Funny how YOU twist words to meet your own agenda. Unfortunately (for YOU)
                     most people can see through all your propaganda and lies.


Thursday 08/30/2001 1:58:59pm
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Nice try BD, but no cigar! Don't be "stupid" and try to post something you know nothing

                     1. This proves your ignorance about beaver. By the time trapping season rolls around, those
                     Juveniles are right at a year old, perfectly capable of building their own dens, lodges, dams,
                     and breeding. They have aquired all the knowledge necessary for survival. By the way,
                     beaver can HOLD their breath for up to 18 minutes (great lung capacity, they don't smoke)but
                     not in a Conibear trap they can't, and this is the primary trap of the beaver trapper. Seldom is
                     the foothold used, and when it is, it is put on a drowning rig. Now picture this if you will,
                     your a beaver, and you are exerting yourself fighting the trap, I don't think you will last 18
                     minutes. I never said death was pretty, but it makes skinning them a lot easier.

                     2. Coyotes as a rule DO NOT chew. I never said there weren't exceptions to rules. I beleive
                     you got this from the BMP study, and the trap was experimental, it didn't work, we don't use
                     it.
                     Skunks and Coons are the only species that habitually chew, that is not a false statement, and
                     they can be prevented from doing so through the proper use of traps proper traps and
                     drowning equipment.
                     The 99% statement comes from pure fact based on my own experience from the the
                     thousands of animals I have caught over the years, and the thousands more yet to come.

                     Yes BD, you will go to jail over playing that boom box. Those states, in their wisdom have
                     outlawed BB anywhere except camping areas etc. If you play one in a designated hunting
                     area, it is assumed you are doing so to harrass wildlife, and that is a big NO NO. That in itself
                     is at least a Class C misdomeanor, harrassing hunters (if any are in the area, that becomes the
                     charge, is a Class B misdomeanor. A C carries 11/29 probation and 500 in fines, a B carries
                     11/29 with half time probation and 1000 in fines. Care to try it it lol? I'll send you a file and
                     hacksaw.



Thursday 08/30/2001 10:26:42am
             Name: BD
          E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
        Location:
       Comments:

                    1. Seasons on furbearers are set so that the animals do not have young during those seasons,
                    so that beaver isn't leaving any young behind.

                    ***Perhaps not newborns, but they may possibly be leaving behind juveniles. Juveniles who
                    still need educated on how to survive in the wild.

                    Also, the methods used in trapping today, rarely ever cause the beaver to struggle as you
                    describe.

                    ****In the case of drowning traps, it can take up to eighteen minutes for a beaver to drown.
                    And yes a struggle for survival does take place. BTW, I got this information from "your"
                    side.

                    2. Coyotes don't chew on their paws when caught in a foot hold.

                    ****Oh, really? Again, I posted something someone from "your" side wrote on a different
                    site. And they yote most certainly did chew of her paw. I suggest YOU do YOUR research!
                    Either that, or stop filling this board with your BS.

                    It used to be that coons and skunks did,(and these are the ONLY species that do this)

                    ****Completely false statement.

                    but with the double jawed and rubber jawed traps used on them today, that rarely happens,
                    and in 99% of the cases it don't.

                    ****Where do you get your figures? It seems you pull them out of a hat. Tell me where I can
                    find something to back up this 99% of them don't chew their paws.

                    3. Careful about the boom box, all states now hunter harrassment laws which would land you
                    in jail for such non-sense.

                    ****I'll go to jail because I like to play loud R & R in the woods? I don't think so, but nice
                    try.

                    As for the mountain lion, or deer, I much doubt you see either with that box,

                    ****That's the point!



Thursday 08/30/2001 1:53:07am
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments:
Comments:
            How Much Water to
            Make One Pound of Beef?

            March 1, 2001 -- To date, probably the most reliable and widely-accepted water estimate to
            produce a pound of beef is the figure of 2,500 gallons/pound. Newsweek once put it another
            way: "the water that goes into a 1,000 pound steer would float a destroyer."


            Not surprisingly, the beef industry promotes a study that determined, using highly suspect
            calculations, that only 441 gallons of water are required to produce a pound of beef.


            (The cattlemen's study applied liberal deductions from water actually used, reasoning that
            water was evaporated at points during the process, or was "returned" to the water table after
            being used to grow plant feed, or was returned to the water table via urea and excrement from
            cows. Thus, study authors reasoned these waters were not "lost" but "recycled" and therefore
            could be subtracted from gross amount of water actually used in beef production. Of course,
            evaporation and cow dung don't go very far in replenishing water pumped from acquifers
            which took thousands of years to fill. It's interesting to consider that if the same fuzzy math
            were applied to calculating how much water it takes to grow vegetables, potatoes would
            probably only require about 2 gallons of water per pound.)


            So what's the beef with beef, when it comes to water?

            Simply put: it's wasteful and irresponsible to squander our precious resources on a luxury
            item like meat.

            The only question we're left with is: just how wasteful and irresponsible is it?

            (Note that the figures for producing a pound
            of beef represent water which is used over a
            2-plus year period, since food cattle are generally
            slaughtered prior to 2-years-old, dairy cattle may
            live 4 years before being turned into burgers,
            and range cattle live to 5 or 6.)
            As you can see from Professor Pimentel's figures, it takes roughly 200 times more water to
            make a pound of beef than a pound of potatoes.

            Professor Pimentel explained of his calculations that:

            the data we had indicated that a beef animal consumed 100 kg of hay and 4 kg of grain per 1
            kg of beef produced. Using the basic rule that it takes about 1,000 liters of water to produce 1
            kg of hay and grain, thus about 100,000 liters were required to produce the 1 kg of beef.


            According to the USDA, one pound of ground lean beef has 1197.5 calories. The USDA lists
            one pound of potatoes as containing 288 calories.

            To get roughly the same amount of calories from potatoes as you do from a pound of beef,
            you would need 4.15 pounds of potatoes.
                     So that's 249 gallons of water for 4.15 pounds potatoes versus 12,009 gallons for the pound
                     of beef -- in order to get the same number of calories from the two foods. In short, it takes
                     nearly 50 times more water to produce a calorie from beef as it does from potatoes.


                     The Aftermath of the Beef Habit?
                     Is this an efficient and fair way to feed the world?

                     Is it sustainable, even in light of the cash subsidies, super-low water prices, free or low-cost
                     grazing on public lands, and the other enormous welfare handouts the meat industry receives
                     from government, in order to keep the price of meat artificially low?

                     How, as a vegetarian, do you feel about paying astronomical water rates when your lifestyle
                     choices mean you're likely consuming a fraction of the water each month that your meat-
                     eating friends are guzzling each day?




Thursday 08/30/2001 1:38:45am
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
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        Comments:
                    Meat & Dairy:
                    The Devastating Environmental Cost
                    Leading researchers and ecologists call for tax on meat
                    and dairy to reflect true environmental impact

                     What, exactly, is the environmental cost of an animal product-based diet?

                     There are probably few people, if any, better qualified to answer this question than David
                     Pimentel, a celebrated professor of ecology and agricultural science at Cornell University,
                     Ithaca, New York.

                     David Pimentel, Ph.D.
                     Professor Pimentel's ecological credentials are virtually unmatched. His research spans the

                     Professor Pimentel's position as a foremost authority also derives in part from the fact that
                     during his long and illustrious career he has teamed with scores of other eminent researchers
                     to publish ground-breaking papers on a wide variety of subjects. In fact, many of the most
                     important published, peer-reviewed studies in this area list him as a primary researcher.


                     Landmark Book

                     Most recently Professor Pimentel rounded up 22 esteemed colleagues -- also top researchers
                     in each of their fields -- and compiled an awesome work of breathtaking scope called
                     Ecological Integrity: Integrating Environment, Conservation and Health (Island Press,
                     Washington DC, Jan. 2001)
Among the many very appealing facets of Professor Pimentel is that he is reasonably
accessible and willing to discuss his methods, his sources of data, and how he or his learned
colleagues came up with various calculations. This stands in stark contrast to the "corporate"
scientists -- those who appear to work chiefly to enhance corporate coffers by obfuscating
issues, muddying waters and downplaying real risks -- who are often unreachable or
unwilling to comment or clarify, or even defend, their questionable work.


Land Use and Animal Agriculture

With the assistance of Robert Goodland, Ph.D. (who is currently the Enviromental Adviser to
the World Bank, where he received Presidential Excellence Awards in 1998 and 1999),
Professor Pimentel provides insight into land use for food.

Goodland and Pimentel cite data which show that worldwide, food and fiber crops are grown
on 12 percent of the Earth's total land area. Another 24 percent of the land is used as pasture
to graze livestock that provide meat and milk products, while forests cover an additional 31
percent. The small percentage of forest and grassland set aside as protected national parks to
conserve biological diversity amounts to only 3 precent of the total terrestrial ecosystem.
Most of the remaining one-third of land area is unsuitable for crops, pasture, and forests
because it is too cold, dry, steep, stony, or wet, or the soil is too infertile or shallow to
support plant growth.

The researchers point out that currently, a total of 3,265 pounds of agricultural products
(including feed and grains) are produced annually to feed each American, while China's food
supply averages only 1,029 pounds/capita/year. The world average value is 1,353
pounds/capita/year. The low number for China correlates with a vegetarian diet, the
researchers point out, noting that most people in China eat essentially a vegetarian diet.


Water Resources

Goodland and Pimentel believe that the present and future availability of adequate supplies of

All vegetation requires and transpires massive amounts of water during the growing season.
For example, a corn crop that produces about 6616 pounds/acre of grain will take up and
transpire about 534,600 gallons/acre of water during the growing season. To supply this
much water to the crop, not only must 855,119 gallons of rain fall per acre, but also a
significant portion must fall during the growing season. Different crops require different
amounts of water:
The renowned scientists state that perhaps the greatest threat to maintaining freshwater
supplies is overdraft of surface and groundwater resources used to supply the needs of the
rapidly growing human population and the agriculture that provides its food. Agricultural
production "consumes" more fresh water than any other human activity. Worldwide, about 82
percent of the fresh water that is pumped is "consumed" (so that it is nonrecoverable) by
agriculture. In the U.S., this figure is about 85 percent. All people require a minimum of 24
gallons/day for cooking, washing, and other domestic needs, while each American uses about
106 gallons/day for domestic needs. Add to that a 1/4-pounder with cheese, and you've added
more than 3,000 additional gallons of water to your daily consumption. About 80 nations in
the world are already experiencing significant water shortages. For instance, in China, more
than three hundred cities are short of water and the problem is intensifying.


Surface water in rivers and lakes and groundwater provide the freshwater supply for the
world. However, groundwater resources are renewed at various rates but usually at the
extremely slow rate of 0.1 - 0.3 percent per year. Because of their slow recharge rate,
groundwater resources must be carefully managed to prevent overdraft.

Yet humans are not effectively conserving groundwater resources, the researchers note, and
their overdraft is now a serious problem in many parts of the world. Goodland and Pimentel
cite several examples worldwide to support this assertion. Most notably, they state that in the
vast U.S. Ogallala aquifer, annual overdraft is 130 to 160 percent above the replacement
level. If this continues, this vital aquifer is expected to become nonproductive in about 40
years. High consumption of surface and groundwater resources is beginning to limit the
option of irrigating arid regions. Furthermore, the scientists cite research showing that per
capita irrigation area is also declining because of salinization and waterlogging, both
deleterious effects of continual irrigation.


Environmental Sustainability

Throughout the book, Pimentel and his colleagues focus on the concept of environmental
sustainability. A big part of that equation, they note, is to reduce demand for food, overall:


Reducing demand can be achived by eating more efficiently on the food chain. Diet matters:
environmental sustainability (ES) can be brought about by reducing feeding inefficiencies,
such as those existing in producing grain-fed livestock, and encouraging more efficient diets,
such as plant-based ones.

The researchers note that the acceptability of plant-based diets is a matter of degree, and that
human societies differ in what diet they find comfortable. Among those who restrict their
consumption of animal-based foods, there is a continuum from eschewing red met, then
"white" meat (poultry), then mammals or all terrestrial aniamls. Some will eat cold-blooded
animals but not warm-blooded ones (i.e., some people eat fish, but not rabbits or chickens).


In their book, the researchers make detailed and virtually unassailable arguments to support

Most people of the world -- those already at the efficient, low-impact end of the food chain --
would stay at the low end of the chain, but would diversify their diet;
Affluent people now eating at the top of the food chain would pay full costs of their high-
impact food choices, consonant with the "polluter pays" principal, via food taxation for those
foods depleting resources at very high rates -- or elect to consume more efficiently lower
down the food chain;
People starting to move up the food chain (e.g., in China and India) would be encouraged to
stop where they are -- and to consider moving back down the chain.
Pimentel and Goodland note that incentives are needed to promote grain-based diets by
applying good economics and good environmental management to food and agriculture. In
particular, conversion efficiency and "polluter pays" principals should be used in setting full-
price policies, which internalizes environmental and social costs. They note that cattle
feedlots and slaughterhouses consume much water and generate much highly polluting waste.
Wastes often are not efficiently reused but are instead disposed of in the nearest watercourse.
Feed and forage production consume even more water. These costs need to be internalized.


In the researchers' view, the highest taxes would fall on the least efficient converters, namely
hogs and cattle. Slightly lower taxes would be assessed on sheep and those cattle grazing
natural grassland.

No taxes would be paid on grains (rice, maize, wheat, buckwheat), starches (potatoes,
cassava), and legumes (soy, pulses, beans, peas, peanuts). Modest subsidies on coarse grains
(millet, pearl millet, sorghum) would alleviate hunger and are unlikely to be abused (as the
rich usually won't eat such foods).

Encouragement for domestic or village-scale beneficiation, such as of peanuts to peanut

The authors conclude that "Adoption of such policies will not solve world hunger overnight,
but it will certainly help."

If you are looking for a comprehensive discussion of food choices and ecological
sustainability, head for your local or online bookstore and pick up a copy of Ecological
Integrity: Integrating Environment, Conservation and Health. Written in a scholarly style by
some of our current greatest thinkers, this work is filled with valuable facts, figures and loads
of references to many other important works, and is an invaluable addition to any ecologist's
library.

Update: William Harris, MD, comments on Professor Pimentel's suggestion to tax meat and
dairy in order to reflect the real environmental and health costs:

I have never met David Pimentel but have always admired his work. I corresponded with
Robert Goodland at the time the World Bank was floating the China-Smallholder Cattle
Development Project and think we're lucky to have him on our side.

As for taxing meat I see pros and cons.

Pro
there's nothing politicians like better than levying new taxes that they can run through their
greedy fingers, so the pols might go for it.

Con
we'll never see the end of alcohol and tobacco because taxing them provides huge revenues to
the government. Taxing meat might have the same effect.
                   Another solution
                   If I were carrying the ball on this I'd go for an across the board final and complete end to all
                   USDA subsidies, price supports, and "production flexibility contracts" which would save the
                   taxpayers a lot of money.

                   I don't like to encourage more taxes for anyone and as a libertarian I support the right of the
                   individual to cut his own throat with the razor of his choice as long as my taxes don't pay for
                   the razor and the guy's medical bills. That way his bad choices have their own unshielded bad
                   consequences and eventually he may come to his senses. We'd be telling the meat folks that
                   we're not the national nanny and that they're free to raise and sell their stuff for whatever the
                   market will bear, but that we're not going to give them yearly bailouts when profits don't meet
                   their expectations, we're not going to pay for their feed grains, pay their public lands grazing
                   fees, shoot their predators for them, and let the Rubes think meat is cheap when their own
                   taxes have already paid half the meat bill. Then I'd insist that the IRS stop requiring that
                   citizens pay a third of the animal food advertising expenses. Under those conditions I think
                   the $.99 hamburger would disappear fairly soon and consumers would suddenly discover an
                   appetite for the healthy vegetables and fruits that don't get much help from the USDA and the
                   IRS in the first place.




Thursday 08/30/2001 0:12:34am
             Name: Meriwether
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        Comments: Alyce,

                   Mark is correct in statements about wildlife. As for the "little beaver" so helplessly filling his
                   lungs with water, most trapper's and animal damage control individuals use conibear's, I can't
                   speak for Mark, but at least the ones I know do. The conibear is more deadly than the leg
                   trap. But the leghold is still plenty effective.

                   As for too many bloody cattle, what should we have instead, Bison? Or should we eliminate
                   them to. It is not the cattle who are detrimental to the environment, it is the management
                   practices of the producers that is harmful to the environment. There are poor operators in
                   every profession. "You" just like to look at the extreme bad example that gives livestock
                   producers a black eye.

                   You know, I spoke with some bonehead that wouldn't eat meat because they "heard" that
                   animals were tough on the environment and more vegetables could be produced per acre than
                   pounds of beef or pork. What a joke. You couldn't mass produce vegetables on the boulder
                   ridden plains of Montana(or other similar regions) if you tried. And in Florida, cattle have a
                   symbiotic relationship with citrus trees and the can run 30 cattle per acre in some regions.
                   *Tongue in cheek* But maybe it would be better to let the grass grow rampantly and burn of
                   a lighting started fire later on, leaving nothing gained from the surface of Mother Earth. Boy,
                   that would be smart wouldn't it. Yeah, you can learn a lot from a dummie.
Wednesday 08/29/2001 6:33:47pm
            Name: Mark
           E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
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       Comments: Oh yes CAT, you are very much a slave. A slave does whatever the ideals of the master
                   dictate, without question. No you are not a slave to a person, or organization, you are slave to
                   an ideal, and refuse to question the validity of some of the movements propaganda. Your
                   mind is a slave, and THAT is 10X worse than slavery of the body.




Wednesday 08/29/2001 6:30:49pm
            Name: Mark
           E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
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       Comments: Alyce you just proved my point, you know absolutely nothing about wildlife.
                   1. Seasons on furbearers are set so that the animals do not have young during those seasons,
                   2. Coyotes don't chew on their paws when caught in a foot hold. It used to be that coons and
                   skunks did,(and these are the ONLY species that do this) but with the double jawed and
                   rubber jawed traps used on them today, that rarely happens, and in 99% of the cases it don't.

                      3. Careful about the boom box, all states now hunter harrassment laws which would land you
                      in jail for such non-sense. As for the mountain lion, or deer, I much doubt you see either with
                      that box, but if you did, then congratulate the hunter, and hide from the cat, you might be
                      what's for dinner. LOL



Wednesday 08/29/2001 6:13:57pm
            Name: Alyce
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       Comments: Hello Mark..
                   Once again Alyce BS! Most of the data posted by BD is about 20 to 30 years old, and some

                      *** Can you be more specific. What no longer applies?

                      As for slavery, you are a slave to your industry, and you are a slave to the animal rights
                      movement simply because you follow along blindly and are willing to accept the words of
                      "arm chair" experts who have never experienced what goes on in the woods.
                     ***Well maybe I better get my boom box and head on out. What would I see? Perhaps a
                     beaver struggling for a breath of air as it's little lungs fill with water. It's young ones left
                     alone. Or maybe a coyote chewing on it leg trying to free itself? Or maybe a bird or some
                     other "non targeted" animal caught and suffering in one of those dreadful traps. Maybe I
                     would get to see a hunter shoot a beautiful deer. Or a moutain lion. Some experts! As I think
                     of the horrors propagated by the "experts" on your side I'll stick with my AR buddies and the
                     information they provide.



Wednesday 08/29/2001 6:07:34pm
            Name: The Cat
           E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
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       Comments: Hi all,

                     The point made that ALA are slaves is a contradiction in terms. There are no masters
                     therefore there are no slaves. We don't operate from profit or in any hierarchy. Everyone is
                     their own person they do what they can when they can, they don't need to be told, controlled
                     or paid. This is the power of this movement, something that cannot be comprehended by the
                     powers that be. We have been jailed, murdered, and fined but the movement gets more
                     powerful. In the UK as I can't comment on USA, we have reached the final phase of conflict,
                     suppression by the courts and press. The truth about animal abuse for human use and pleasure
                     is reaching the public despite the opposition and ridicule of the established order. The public
                     are increasingly responsive and supportive.




Wednesday 08/29/2001 0:09:12am
            Name: mark
           E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
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       Comments: When I was growing up we raised both Dairy and Beef cattle, neither acted miserable, in fact
                   they were quite content. They don't detroy the enviornment, in fact, one of the great "by
                   products" of cattle is the "@#%$!" we used to fertilize the veggies you all love so well.



Tuesday 08/28/2001 10:03:42pm
             Name: Paula
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        Comments: .......

                     and knowing that so much cattle is destructive to the enviroment.
Tuesday 08/28/2001 10:02:12pm
             Name: Paula
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        Comments: Marky,

                     Honestly. I was not suggesting that we kill them all. I was making the point that so much
                     cattle is destructive to the enviroment, and there are so much cattle because of human greed.


                     It is better not to breed them at all than to breed them with intent knowing that they are
                     destined to live a miserable life and die a miserble death.



Tuesday 08/28/2001 9:39:39pm
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
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        Comments: So Paula, do you propose we kill them all? Kind of counter-productive to your cause isn't it?
                    What would be next, the Swine? What would we do with them all after we kill them. Eat
                    them? Sounds like a plan, you shoot, and I'll skin. Jeesshhhhhhhh



Tuesday 08/28/2001 9:20:01pm
             Name: Paula
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        Comments: I can think of something worse for the enviroment and for the starving. The amount of bloody
                    cattle on the planet for a start.



Tuesday 08/28/2001 9:10:58pm
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Once again Alyce BS! Most of the data posted by BD is about 20 to 30 years old, and some
                    of it MUCH older, and no longer applies.
                    As for slavery, you are a slave to your industry, and you are a slave to the animal rights
                    movement simply because you follow along blindly and are willing to accept the words of
                    "arm chair" experts who have never experienced what goes on in the woods. I could go
                    deeper here, but what would the point be?


Tuesday 08/28/2001 7:11:43pm
             Name: The Cat
          E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
        Location:
       Comments: Hi all,

                      See Ananova Protests. Bull fighting in Russia has been stopped by public and celebrity
                      pressure. Also in Norway a cow and her mate forced open the door of an abbatoir and
                      escaped. Don't tell me that animals want to die in a "humane environment".




Tuesday 08/28/2001 7:02:35pm
             Name: Alyce
            E-Mail: alyce@extremezone.com
   Homepage URL:
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        Comments: What a timely article BD! Mark and I recently had a discussion on this very issue. Mark, you
                    sort of had me convinced about synthetics being bad for the environment. All that processing
                    you know. Of course it would'nt have mattered I would never agree of the killing of an animal
                    for something to eat or wear. You told me to research the issue. The research provided in the
                    article proves IMO that you are wrong.. Fur is much worse for the environment than
                    synthetics.



Tuesday 08/28/2001 6:58:01pm
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Hi all,

                      Oil, synthentics and plastics don't bleed and die. The fur "industry" depends on non-
                      consensual animals and people who purchase fur for dubious pleasure and to flaunt their
                      wealth. Tell me the price of a mink coat. And what percentage goes to the hunter/trapper.
                      Speaking of slavery, Mark you appear to be a slave of the fur "industry". Don't tell me that
                      you are concerned about wildlife, you are concerned about wild death and you profit from it.
                      As we speak foot and mouth comes back to the UK and all I hear in the press are the wails of
                      "distressed" farmers over the "culling" nicer name than murder, of their flocks, herds. Or
                      could it be over their deteriorating bank balance. Humans have built industries from the
                      exploitation of animals, animals can't protest as they have no voice box, but I can.




Tuesday 08/28/2001 5:05:29pm
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
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        Comments: Who wrote this BD, and just what is his/her affiliation? Now, substitute all the "fur industry"
         Comments:
                     As for "fur farming" practices of the mid 1900's they no longer apply, and chemicals used in
                     producing finished fur today are ALL biodegradeable and/or naturally occuring products.

                     As for Europes problems, we ALL know their "dumping practices" of practically everything
                     from solid waste to animal waste was "below standard" for years. I read this study you posted
                     by the way, and as usual it is full of old data, that while true "way back then" no longer holds
                     water today.
                     Of course I would expect something like this from an "armchair" wildlife expert such as
                     yourself. Try again bud, your getting there, and this would be convincing to someone who
                     doesn't know the facts, but for those of us who do, we know what you just posted is just not
                     true today.



Tuesday 08/28/2001 4:34:50pm
             Name: BD
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        Comments: Although we've been through this discussion before...

                     An Environmental Nightmare

                     In a public relations campaign designed to deflect criticism of the fur industries treatment of
                     animals, it was declared that fur is an environmentally safe product. When held up to review,
                     this statement has not held true. In fact, advertising standards committees in England,
                     Denmark, Holland, Italy, and Finland have ruled that any advertising declaring fur as
                     environmentally safe is false and misleading. Fur farms, like all factory farm operations,
                     produce massive amounts of animal waste that is all consolidated in one small area. In
                     Finland, home of 65% of the worlds fox farms, fur animal wastes have come to equal the
                     uncleaned sewage of a million people, according to environmentalist Mauro Leivi.


                     Water & Air Pollution

                     Animal wastes are high in phosphorous and nitrogen. When it rains this waste can wash

                     The nutrients in the waste lead to excessive algae growth which in turn depletes the oxygen in
                     the water. This can kill more sensitive species of fish and make the water unsuitable for
                     humans. In the Finnish town of Kaustinen, consumption of the groundwater had to be
                     stopped, and the direction of the water current changed, because of pollution caused by fur
                     farms.

                     In the US, fur farm associations have lobbied local governments in the Great Lakes region to
                     keep water quality standards low. The Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources has even
                     addressed fur farmers about ground water contamination.
Sweden's largest fox farm was ordered to close in January 1998 because of the role they had
played in contaminating local water supplies. At roughly the same time the magazine
Scientifur reported on a Polish study which found that the soil around fur farms was
contaminated with growing forms of nematodes. Another study in the same issue advised fur
farmers to be careful when determining the location for water wells on their property.


In Finland, fur farms produce 1500 tons of ammonia a year. This causes serious air pollution
and is very unpleasant to live near. Unfortunately, agricultural zoning laws make it difficult
for people near fur farms to do anything about it.

Invasive Species

Various animals have been shipped into foreign habitat for the purpose of fur farming. In the
1830's the Russian-American Co. began dumping foxes onto various islands around Alaska.
These islands had never had a predator like the fox, and the conditions were right for the
proliferation of the animal so as to make trapping easier. This was, in a sense, an early
attempt at fur farming, by placing a large number of animals in one small place until the
killing season.

This early attempt at fur farming had a devastating impact. The non-native foxes caused the
extinction of various seabirds. The Aleutian Canada goose has had its range reduced to one
island. A 1987 survey found that more than 100 fox filled, offshore islands were completely
devoid of nocturnal shorebirds.

After this the fur trade moved towards keeping animals in cages. This still led to the
establishment of mink in Europe, nutria in the US, raccoons in Germany, muskrats in
Holland, raccoons and skunks in the Prince Edward Islands, oppossums in New Zealand, and
red fox in California. Sometimes this has led to very real environmental problems, and
sometimes it hasn't.

This still hasn't stopped the fur trade from raising animals in places that they are not native
too, thus inviting another ecological disaster. An example would be the farming of red fox in
Iceland. The red fox, and its color mutations such as the silver fox are not native to Iceland.
These types of fox are bigger and more aggressive than Iceland's native arctic fox, and should
red fox establish themselves in this Nordic country, they are likely to cause a great decline in
the arctic fox population. This theory is based on what has happened in other areas where the
two species have been forced to co-exist.

Icelandic farmers often complain about the impacts the arctic fox has upon their stock. Let's

The damage American mink have caused in Europe has been exaggerated by mink hunting
interests. None the less, various European governments have carried out kill campaigns
against the American mink. The European mink, a different species, is often confused with
the American mink, and is nearly endangered as a result of these lethal control initiatives. The
European mink wouldn't be dying in large numbers if fur farmers hadn't originally brought
American mink over for fur farming.

Impacts on Native Species
Trappers are lobbying to maintain a trapping season for lynx in MT, despite the fact that as
few as 150 may still exist in that state. On top of that, the National Trappers Association has
even suggested having the lynx, otter, and bobcat downlisted from their current status with
the Convention In Trade for Endangered Species. The stated reason for this was that tagging
the pelts, so as to keep up with the body count, involved too much effort.


Trapping causes the immediate destruction of large numbers of predators. This can lead to an
over abundance of various prey species. This helped the deer mice population in NM boom
several years ago. As a result of this the deer mice transmitted the Hanta virus to over 50
people who later died.

Come spring though, the predator populations will usually rebound. When an animals
numbers are reduced, there is less stress as food and habitat become more readily available.
Less stress on the surviving animals means that there will be an increase in breeding success.
This refutes the fur trades claim that trapping curbs alleged instances of animal
overpopulation.

Traps are non-selective and often catch endangered species. In 1973 a trapper with the
federal government reported that 2,500 bald and golden eagles had been caught in traps in
Nevada. 630 died in the traps, and undoubtedly others died later as a result of trap induced
injuries.

In the late 70's it was discovered that otter populations in PA were at a dangerously low level.

The University of Minnesota Raptor Research and Rehabilitation Program conducted a
survey that found 21% of all admissions of bald eagles involved individuals caught in leghold
traps. 64% of these eagles died as a result of their injuries.

Trapping has been blamed for hindering the recovery of the marten, the fisher, and the
wolverine in the Rocky Mountain states. These predators are very susceptible to baited traps
set for other species. An accurate count of how many of these animals have been trapped
incidentally is impossible to measure as many trappers follow the "shoot, shovel, and shut
up" philosophy. Basically, this means that if you catch an endangered species you should
bury it and never say anything about it again.

An Environmental Nightmare

Caustic chemicals are used in the processing of fur coats. The fur trade has always claimed
fur is biodegradable. This is true for raw pelts, but only dressed pelts are put on the market as
no one wants a coat that will rot in their closet. In 1991 the Environmental Protection Agency
fined two fur processing companies a combined total of $1.6 million for non-compliance with
hazardous waste regulations. In 1993 a NY fur processor was found guilty of the same thing.
Yet the fur industry still claims they are selling a "natural" product!


A study by Ford Motor Co. researcher Gregory Smith found that production of a wild caught
fur required 3 times more energy than the production of a synthetic coat. A ranch raised coat
required nearly 20 times more energy than the production of a synthetic coat.
                      The production of fur hurts marine mammals as well. Seal and whale meat is increasingly
                      being used as feed on fur farms in Canada and Russia.

                      The fur industry is an environmental nightmare! The evidence presented here is just a
                      thumbnail sketch of the immense environmental problem created by fur production. This
                      industry is now exposed as being not only abusive in their treatment of animals, but deadly to
                      the planet that we all live on.


Tuesday 08/28/2001 3:38:54pm
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
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        Comments: Once again BD, you are allowing emotion to over-ride fact, but I will give you the benefit of



Tuesday 08/28/2001 4:19:26am
             Name: BD
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        Comments:

                      As for your synthetics Paula, I can't think of a single other thing that is more environmentally
                      unfriendly.

                      ***I can. The processing of fur.



Tuesday 08/28/2001 3:33:34am
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
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          Location:
        Comments: Once again you folks have not failed me. Once again you read the sarcasm in my post and
                    took it as opinion.
                    As for your synthetics Paula, I can't think of a single other thing that is more environmentally
                    unfriendly.



Tuesday 08/28/2001 3:04:12am
             Name: Kit
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        Comments: Your are absolutely right BD. Great post.
Tuesday 08/28/2001 2:30:21am
             Name: BD
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        Comments:

                      Again we get into the "equal rights" of humans and animals thing, and obviously animals
                      don't (nor will they have) equal rights, or be covered under the Constitution, to do so would
                      mandate the right to vote etc.

                      ****ARA's are not asking that non-humans have "equal" rights to humans. (as in the right to
                      vote, marry or drive a vehicle.) We are fighting for their basic rights, which include the right
                      to live, to avoid pain, to pursue hapiness, to exist on a healthy planet, and to be free from
                      exploitation regardless of what human interest may be served by their pain or exploitation.
                      Why do you constantly bring up the ridiculous statement of giving animals the right to vote?
                      It's getting old and quite frankly, boring.

                      If slavery was all about greed, and money, why is it that those states who had them were the
                      poorest, and those who didn't were the richest?

                      ****It was the wealthy who owned slaves. The agribusiness of the south. You know,
                      plantation owners. The wealthy owned slaves and didn't need to hire help for their
                      plantations, thereby raising unemployment. Have you ever noticed that some of the poorest
                      countries in the world have some of the wealthiest families living in it? It's called "slave
                      labor."

                      States which did not accept slavery, had to EMPLOY the citizens of their state to thrive,
                      thereby lowering unemployment and making the all around economy much more stable and
                      able to grow.


Tuesday 08/28/2001 0:11:47am
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
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        Comments: Hi all,

                      So pleased to hear that women now have rights, they always did but now that it is legally



Tuesday 08/28/2001 0:01:52am
             Name: Paula
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        Comments: I meant how dare anyone kill an animal for his/her fur, not "its" fur.

                      LANGUAGE SAYS IT ALL
         Comments:



                      e.g stop eating like a pig; the dirty rat; the dog; b i t c h; what a bunch of animals/wild
                      animals; stupid cow; etc etc

                      The above are fine examples of how anthropocentric we are. So much so that we belittle and
                      insult animals everyday in the english language without giving it even a second thought. To
                      belittle animals and to think of ourselves as civilised and superior is rooted inside of us since
                      our childhood that we don't even question the use of animals and realise it until we are
                      confronted with the truth, and even then many people refuse to believe that animals are more
                      than machines that walk.



Monday 08/27/2001 11:34:04pm
            Name: Paula
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        Comments: By law child abusers do not have the right to abuse children, murderers do not have the right
                   to murder,and rapists do not have the right to rape, just as animal abusers should not have the
                   right to abuse animals. Until the law recognises this basic right that animals should have, the
                   right not to be hunted for their fur(because it belongs to them and is biologically designed for
                   their health and survival)then it is up to good people to take the law into their own hands.


                      How dare anyone kill an animal for its fur. It's disgusting! Imagine someone hunting you
                      down for your skin. These animals have lives, lives that should not be taken by humans for
                      any reason, and especially not so that we can decorate ourselves.

                      WEAR YOUR OWN SKIN--LEATHER IS TOUGH ON ANIMALS!



Monday 08/27/2001 11:07:28pm
            Name:
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        Comments: Although some starving pirates in the 16th and 17th century did eat their boots when they
                   were starving--that's true!



Monday 08/27/2001 11:06:18pm
            Name:
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        Comments: Actually Marky

                      Haven't you heard of the latest micro-fibre material. It's used in outdoor pursuits such as
                      mountaineering.It has all the qualities that leather has and some types last longer.
Monday 08/27/2001 10:54:56pm
            Name: mark
           E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: Ah but Cat, here in the U.S. the Constitution only gaurantees the rights of "all men", do you
                   realize that constitutionally this excludes women? However, with the 21st amendment,
                   women were granted suffrage. Slavery in this part of the world ended almost 150 years ago,
                   and those arguments do not apply today. Again we get into the "equal rights" of humans and
                   animals thing, and obviously animals don't (nor will they have) equal rights, or be covered
                   under the Constitution, to do so would mandate the right to vote etc. and we all know that
                   won't happen. The hunter harrassement laws were enacted in most states to prevent the
                   hunters from being harrassed. That is not to say that you can't protest a hunt or anything else,
                   but you have to do it in public as the Constitution mandates. By the way, did you know most
                   states have now made hunting and trapping a constituional right (withing their state
                   constitutions)? This prevents folks like Pacelle pulling the same idiocy that Washington State
                   is now paying for. Those laws were also passed for YOUR safety, not good to go harrassing a
                   guy with a gun you know (hehe), at least sometimes not healthy.

                      Actually this was a "test case" to see if the laws would hold up under the Constitution, and it
                      did.
                      Interesting tidbit about slavery by the way, something I picked up on one of todays radio talk
                      shows. If slavery was all about greed, and money, why is it that those states who had them
                      were the poorest, and those who didn't were the richest?
                      Something else interesting, if leather were outlawed what would your (or our) nations soldiers
                      wear on their feet? Nothing is more durable than leather, and let me tell you from experience,
                      a durable pair of boots in the terrain most soldiers find themselves in is a must. I have been in
                      areas where even a pair of leather boots wouldn't last more than a couple of weeks.




Monday 08/27/2001 6:11:57pm
            Name: The Cat
           E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
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        Comments: Hi all,

                      In 1996 Prof.Gary Francione from Rutgers Law School US acting on behalf of his client, a
                      veterinarian opposed the "Hunter Harassment" statute on grounds of human rights. The right
                      to protest peacefully is a fundamental right to every human being. Alas the rights of animals
                      has yet to enter the statute book. Prof.Francione appears to uphold the view that the
                      suppression of animals is fundamental to the way humans live their lives. Most humans see
                      themselves as top of the species ladder and they have the right to treat a lower species as they
                      see fit. This ethos sounds like the slavery ethos, now thankfully almost history thanks to the
                      efforts of violent, non violent campaigners.
Monday 08/27/2001 8:58:33am
            Name: The Cat
           E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
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        Comments: Hi all,

                      Mark, It wasn't my intention to comment on Peter Singer's attitude to euthanasia, however I
                      think I covered the issue of euthanasia with or without consent. Quality of life I guess is also
                      important but who makes that decision and who is to say what quality of life is. Silent Bob,
                      stay true to your name.



Monday 08/27/2001 0:44:19am
            Name: silent bob
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        Comments: you people are childish brats who push your opions on others. I don't like it how you end the
                    lives of innocent vegetables!!! hahahaALF responder: Based on the quality of your logic
                    above (I realize I am generalizing, but, as is often the case when I generalize, I don't care) I
                    believe you are upset because you ARE a vegetable (or vegetables are your only friends).




Sunday 08/26/2001 9:07:43pm
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
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        Comments: Cat you missed the point entirely. Singer advocates euthansia of human beings who do not
                     have the capability of consent either. One can have compassion and still be a hunter or
                     trapper believe it or not. BDs views on this are a little one sided.


Sunday 08/26/2001 5:57:26pm
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Hi all,

                      Welcome to Keith and Maxine, stay with us. The deranged woman in UK who "mistakenly"
                      microwaved her cat, appears to be disliked by her neighbours. She is becoming a celebrity
                      and is attracting the attention of groups of interested parties,and is keeping the local glaziers
                      and builders in business. Good to see that small businesses are alive and well. I hope similar
                      celebrity status is endowed on the puppy shredder in US.
Sunday 08/26/2001 4:39:21pm
             Name: keith and maxine
            E-Mail: sumo1957@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location: ryde,isle of wight
        Comments: keep fighting for the rights of the innocent,cruelly treated animals,we are with you all the
                     way!



Sunday 08/26/2001 4:28:49pm
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Hi all,

                      So we are entering into the interesting terraine of euthansia. With humans it's called voluntary
                      euthanasia or assisted suicide with the full consent of the subject who at the point of consent
                      suffers from a life threatening disease with no continued quality of life anticipated. Euthansia
                      is however a different subject. This is without consent of the subject, rather a solution
                      convenient or otherwise by another party. Animals are not able to give consent to this
                      procedure therefore to euthanise is to kill, however I do agree with BD, that when humans
                      lack compassion and common sense what else can one do. Mark I would love to gather up all
                      unwanted animals and give them sanctuary but this does not solve the problem. Humans who
                      perceive animals as lesser beings or as a disposable commodity to live or die at the whim or
                      pleasure of the human are the problem. Again I agree with BD you either have it or you do
                      not.



Sunday 08/26/2001 4:09:22pm
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments:

                      Mark's Comment: "It would seem that anytime someone attacks one of your "idols" with fact
                      you feel compelled to attack."

                      ***I have reread the last eight pages of posts on the forum to see where I have personally
                      attacked Mark. I was unable to come up with anything, however I did find some personal
                      attacks FROM Mark.

                      "Lest you go off the deep end again."

                      "Now sober up."

                      "Wish I had some of what you're drinking."
                   "Jeesh, who sh*t in your cherios today."

                   "BD, if you will pull your head out of your 'fourth point of contact'"

                   "Engage your brain before putting you keyboard in gear."

                   "Personally, I wish he would come to see me and give it a try,lol."

                   If anyone really cares and has read a post in which I PERSONALLY attacked Mark, please
                   feel free to bring it to my attention. I may have missed something.



Sunday 08/26/2001 1:54:12pm
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments:

                   This letter appeared today in the "letters to the editor" section of my local newspaper. It's a
                   response from another Letter to the Editor that some anti-nature zealot wrote. Thought it was
                   pretty cool.

                   "Letters to editor are enlightening"

                   I find this page of more interest than the news headlines, for it expresses what our "thinkers"
                   are feeling. Good examples in the Aug. 19 edition are the letters from Thomas Ackerman and
                   Cynthia Powers. I'm thankful our loving Father created animals for us "wackos" and provided
                   them with a place to exist. How sad he must be to see how we've squandered and wasted the
                   resources he provided us with and we're still not trying to conserve. How reassuring to know
                   someone is "kowtowing" to environmentalist groups and animal rights groups to keep at least
                   some of the beauty that was given to us at creation.


                   Thanks for giving us this space to express our feelings.

                   I will not print the author's name out of respect for her privacy.


Sunday 08/26/2001 1:43:52pm
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments:

                   I thought this was an interesting article that appeared in my local paper this morning...thought
                   I'd share it with anyone interested.

                   Cougars and sharks and bears, oh my!
Comments:




            By JOAN LOWY
            Scripps Howard News Service
            August 24, 2001

            - It has been a year of jaws and claws: Sharks biting surfers, alligators dragging away
            toddlers, bears mauling campers and cougars attacking skiers and bicyclists.

            Actually, 2001 is not much different from last year despite several high-profile incidents, but
            the trend over the past decade is strikingly clear - close encounters of the predator kind are on
            a definite upswing and so are injuries and deaths.

            The 1990s was the worst decade ever for shark, bear, alligator and cougar attacks in North
            America. Deaths and injuries to people from all four of these large predators are still
            extremely rare - but not as rare as they once were.

            While there are several factors behind the phenomenon, wildlife experts say the overriding
            reason for the increase is that there are simply a lot more people than there used to be and
            they are encroaching on wildlife habitat everywhere.

            From urban sprawl along Colorado's Front Range to luxury retreats near Yellowstone
            National Park to surfing along Florida's shores, people are increasingly living, working and
            playing in close proximity to predators.

            Another factor is that some predators are increasing their numbers once again, recovering
            from earlier decades in which they were widely persecuted.

            "Considering the large populations of humans and predators co-existing in the same areas, it
            is not surprising that large predators injure some people," said Michael Conover, director of
            the Jack Berryman Institute at Utah State University, which researches people-wildlife
            conflicts.
            "What is really amazing is that so few people
            are attacked," Conover writes in a forthcoming wildlife biology textbook. "Why don't hungry
            cougars and bears commonly prey upon humans, especially children? People are much easier
            to catch and kill than deer or elk and are more abundant."

            Sharks have been the focus of the greatest attention this year, with highly publicized attacks
            in Florida and the Bahamas. There were 536 shark attacks worldwide in the 1990s,
            continuing an upward trend exhibited throughout the 20th century, according to the
            International Shark Attack File at the University of Florida.

            "There are simply more humans in the water," said George Burgess, director of the shark
            attack file. "We can count on this trend to continue in this century unless shark populations
            decline even greater than they already have or people stop going in the water or we solve the
            world population problem."

            Florida is the shark bite capital of the world with 220 unprovoked attacks between 1990 and
            2000, but only two fatalities. It's also the home of more alligators, and the site of more
            alligator attacks, than anywhere else.

            Alligators attacked 78 people in the United States during the 1980s and 110 people between
            1990 and 1995. By comparison, there are only five recorded alligator attacks between 1830
            and 1969.
                   Hunting and commercial harvesting once threatened to wipe out alligators, but the ancient
                   reptiles began to recover after interstate shipment of illegal alligator hides was banned.
                   Gators have now moved from remote swamps into suburban and urban lakes and canals
                   where they come into contact with people daily.

                   "You literally have people's back doors facing alligator habitat," said Harry Dutton, alligator
                   management leader for the Florida Fish and Conservation Commission. "You have to expect
                   that occasionally alligators are going to wander into people's yards."

                   There have been two alligator-related deaths this year in Florida - a 2-year-old girl who
                   wandered away from her backyard in Winter Haven, and a 70-year-old man whose body was
                   found floating in a Venice pond with an 8-foot gator circling nearby.

                   Cougars - also known as mountain lions, pumas, catamounts and panthers - once roamed
                   most of North America, but are now reduced to 13 Western states, Florida and southwestern
                   Canada. The Florida panther, a subspecies of cougar, is one of the most endangered animals
                   in the world.

                   Half of the 20th century's 14 known deaths from cougar attacks in North America occurred in
                   the 1990s. Colorado's only two fatal cougar attacks both occurred in the 1990s. Of the 10
                   known nonfatal cougar attacks in Washington state, eight have occurred since 1990.


                   Last year, three cougar attacks were reported, including one against a 4-year-old girl who was
                   seriously injured near her parent's campsite at Bartlett Lake in Arizona.

                   "It's an important thing to keep in mind that this is a very small risk," said cougar expert Paul
                   Beier, a wildlife ecology professor at Northern Arizona University. "You are much safer
                   taking a walk in the woods than walking down the street in any neighborhood in any city in
                   the United States."

                   There were 128 deaths from grizzly and black bears in North America during the 20th
                   century, with 56 deaths - nearly half - occurring in the last two decades, according to Stephen
                   Herrero, an environmental science professor at the University of Calgary.

                   By comparison, there were six fatal bear attacks in all of the 1940s and only one in the 1930s,
                   said Herrero, an expert on bear attacks.

                   Florida has never had a bear attack, but nuisance black bear calls to the state Fish and
                   Conservation commission skyrocketed from less than 100 a year in the early 1990s to 1,136
                   calls last year.

                   "People tell us, 'I don't know why these bears are tearing down the screens on my porch every
                   day,' and they've got six bowls of pet food sitting out there," said Tom Eason, Florida state
                   bear management leader. "It's pretty obvious to us why it's happening."




Sunday 08/26/2001 12:18:28am
             Name: BD
          E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
        Location:
       Comments:

                    Mark, you presented some information and made some statements, I merely argued the
                    validity of both. Pissing match? It only seems to be a pissing match when you are proved
                    wrong or when someone doesn't agree with you. But, you're right enough of this argument, it's
                    old as well as irrelevant.

                    I would like to clarify my position on euthanasia...

                    I believe in euthanizing humans only with their consent. It's called assisted suicide. I feel if
                    someone is terminally ill and in great pain, they should have that option.

                    I don't necessarily agree with PETA's policy (or the HS or the individual shelters) to
                    euthanize unwanted animals. I think it is barbaric in fact. I would love for there to be
                    alternatives to this. Unfortunately, the funds aren't there to keep these animals alive. Is that
                    Peta, HSUS,etc. fault? Of course not, it's the fault of the uneducated, irresponsible pet owner.
                    Look at farms--a lot of farms keep cats (to keep down the mouse population), these cats are
                    allowed to multiply by the dozens. Many of these cats will not reach their first birthday,
                    because of disease. The farmers don't take the cats to the vet (due to the expense and lack of
                    compassion.) Even when free spaying/neutering is offered, many people are too ignorant to
                    utilize this free service. If we can educated people, we may be able to cut down the numbers
                    of animals euthanized every year. The one thing we cannot educate folks on is compassion--
                    you either have it, or you don't. That's where the problem really lies. So, it's not really that I
                    back euthanasia to healthy animals, I just don't know what alternative we would come up
                    with.




Sunday 08/26/2001 9:22:44am
             Name: Paula
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Actually Mark

                    The man who shredded the puppies will not be punished accordingly.

                    He should go to prison for a long time and no doubt he won't. Christ those that rape and
                    murder humans are usually let out before their time is served, only to commit similar crimes.


                    BTW, BD believes in PETA's policy to euthanise animals. I am not sure exactly where Peter
                    Singer stands on this but I think he takes a neutral position, and claims that if the right to life
                    is measured on the value of an individuals life then the speciest argument that it is not alright
                    to euthanise a severley mentally retarded individual and alright to euthanise an animal does
                    not hold any weight.
                       "What we need is some middle position that would avoid speciesism but would not make the
                       lives of the retarded and senile as cheap as the lives of pigs and dogs now are,or make the
                       lives of pigs and dogs so sacrosanct that we think it is wrong to put them out of hopeless
                       misery. What we must do is bring non-human animals within our shere of moral concern and
                       cease to treat their lives as expendible for whatever trivial purposes we may have"


                       Peter Singer Animal Liberation



Sunday 08/26/2001 7:43:47am
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: BD I will not (again) make this forum a personal pissing contest between you and I which is
                     what you seem to be trying to do. Your right, you defended the man to the hilt in his AR/AL
                     ideals in previous posts but when I first brought up his euthanasia ideals quite some time ago
                     you defended him by saying it was taken completely out of context right along with his
                     "beastiality leanings" which was also brought up in that AP story, that is the part I didn't print
                     because I didn't want to incite you, but since you already are, what the hell. This is the last
                     time I will get into a pissing match in this forum with you. You have my email addy, you
                     want to take it there fine. I started out this evening reporting facts as a matter of interests and
                     YOU took it personally. It would seem that anytime someone attacks one of your "idols" with
                     fact you feel compelled to attack even when you know you are wrong. I sure wish I had some
                     of what your drinking tonight!

                       ALF RESPONDER, my apologies in advance, but I felt this should be addressed, right here,
                       where he put it!



Sunday 08/26/2001 5:53:54am
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: ALF RESPONDER, most ARs who support the HSUS and PETA believe Singer and
                     Newkirk to be Messiahs, I didn't include ALF at all.

                       ****Where was this poll taken? I'd like to know how you came up with that statement. Do
                       you have ANY idea how many ARAs there are? How many did you personally speak with to
                       arrive at this conclusion?

                       Personally, if I were a member of "his group"

                       ***I wasn't aware Peter had a "group."

                       I would want to disassociate myself from him as much as possible instead of defending him,
                       which is what BD seems to be doing.
                  ***I don't recall defending him, if anything, I defended his AR/AL ideals. Nothing more,
                  nothing less.

                  How hypocritical it seems that "we" (not you BD, I feel I have to clarify that, lest you go off
                  on the deep end again) can stand and shout from the roof tops about "murder" to animals in
                  dog pounds fur farms and in the fields, and yet condone euthanasia of humans.


                  ***Personally, I don't condone euthanasia of humans or non-humans. Well, maybe under
                  certain circumstances I would.

                  It would seem to me that if you support this man, then you support his works (again "you"
                  being generic, lest someone take it personally).

                  ***I do support his work, his AR/AL ideals. I've already covered this in my previous post.


                  The general public (it seems to me) would say: "hmm he wants to save animals yet condones
                  killing the handicapped, I am not sure I want any part of that organization".

                  ***Again, what organization? I don't believe he is affiliated with any particular org. And I
                  don't think the general public even knows who he is.

                  All I (Mark) have to say about that is I am glad he is on "your" side and not mine!

                  ***Me too.

                  Already the HSUS is getting bad press around the country, and justifiably so, and this just
                  adds fuel to the fire

                  ***Hmm...I haven't heard this. That must be why their membership and contributions have
                  been going up.

                  Going off the deep end? Who are you trying to fool?


Sunday 08/26/2001 5:27:09am
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
         Comments: ALF RESPONDER, most ARs who support the HSUS and PETA believe Singer and
                   Newkirk to be Messiahs, I didn't include ALF at all. Nor was my post intended to include
                   everybody. It was just a little tidbit that came across the wire today (remember, I am part of
                   the press) that I thought applied here. Personally, if I were a member of "his group" I would
                   want to disassociate myself from him as much as possible instead of defending him, which is
                   what BD seems to be doing. How hypocritical it seems that "we" (not you BD, I feel I have to
                   clarify that, lest you go off on the deep end again) can stand and shout from the roof tops
                   about "murder" to animals in dog pounds fur farms and in the fields, and yet condone
                   euthanasia of humans. It would seem to me that if you support this man, then you support his
                   works (again "you" being generic, lest someone take it personally). The general public (it
                   seems to me) would say: "hmm he wants to save animals yet condones killing the
                   handicapped, I am not sure I want any part of that organization". All I (Mark) have to say
                   about that is I am glad he is on "your" side and not mine! Already the HSUS is getting bad
                   press around the country, and justifiably so, and this just adds fuel to the fire.



Sunday 08/26/2001 3:09:08am
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments:

                      As for your Peter Singer article...what's you point?

                      There is much diversity in the AR movement, it's called individuality. Some AR folks are
                      atheists, some are not. Some folks are pro-choice, others are not. Hell, Peter Singer may think
                      it's acceptable to fart in public, personally, I do not. So, I'm really trying to figure out what
                      the point of your post is. Because I agree with his stance on animal rights/liberation, I also
                      have to agree with EVERYTHING he endorses? I don't think so.ALF responder: Well said.
                      Only in a cult do folks believe that everything a leader does is wonderful. It is one criteria of
                      being a cult. I am repeating myself here, but ALF is an anti-cult (it has zero, zip, nada
                      leaders). Apparently this concept is hard for a few folks to grasp and hang on to, and they try
                      to offend AR by finding fault with people (who's the misanthrope here?). If bullsh!t were
                      music, these folks could be leaders of the band. I know of nobody whose opinion I agree with
                      on everything. Is there such a person?




Sunday 08/26/2001 3:05:33am
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Right you are, but again, I will state, that that is why I had my doubts! Now sober up. Jeesh
                     who @#%$! in your cherios today?



Sunday 08/26/2001 2:59:24am
           Name: BD
          E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
        Location:
       Comments:

                      Mark: "Up until you made that clarification though, like most intelligent people, I assumed
                      'paper' shredder."

                      BD: No, most INTELLIGENT people would know that a STAPLE would jam a paper
                      shredder, much less a puppy. And I'll point out one of your famous lines: "Never assume
                      anything, it only makes an a$$ of U and me."



Sunday 08/26/2001 2:42:59am
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: BD, if you will pull your head out of your "fourth point of contact" (paratrooper term for that
                     section of the body between the hips) you would understand that I was asking for a
                     clarification. Cat never said it was a farm machine, nor did she post the article. Now, there is
                     no such "animal" as a farm machine called a shredder, so I can only assume it is some type of
                     combine, or corn picker. That is reasonable, and the clarification is made. Up until you made
                     that clarification though, like most intelligent people, I assumed 'paper' shredder. The fact
                     remains the guy was arrested, he has been found guilty, (through his own plea) and will pay
                     the price. I wasn't backed in any kind of corner by the way, and there is no need to "strike
                     out" at me when I simply ask for information. By the way, I have seen the research you have
                     done, each item you have presented is written by someone who supports AR, and when
                     Meriweather posts an article (again written by someone who supports AR) you hold it in
                     disdain because it doesn't jive with your "medical doctor" (who oh by the way isn't an
                     anthropologist)views. So number one my friend, engage your brain before putting your
                     keyboard in gear.


Sunday 08/26/2001 2:31:48am
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments:

                      Mark: "Once again, I would like to see the paper shredder"
        Comments:



                    BD: NOWHERE did Cat state this was a "paper shredder." You have once again added (or
                    deleted) words to meet your own twisted agenda. Perhaps instead of trying so hard to prove
                    us to be "liars" or "half-truther's" (as you're so fond of saying) you should work on either
                    disproving us with FACTS--not that "it's so because I say it is" bullsh*t. You're ALWAYS
                    saying "do your research," but I see everyone EXCEPT YOU on this board "doing their
                    research." Do you think people can't read? It is obvious to everyone on this board that when
                    you're backed into a corner, you twist and totally make things up to make yourself appear
                    (falsely)like you know what you're talking about. Try a little harder next time, will ya?




Sunday 08/26/2001 2:16:29am
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments:

                    I believe this is the story Cat is writing about.

                    Horrific Killing Of Four Puppies In Tulare County California

                    CA: Breaking headlines from The Associated Press
                    Friday, July 13, 2001
                    Man charged with killing puppies; two dogs saved

                    Officer: Crime scene was like 'something out of a horror movie'

                    By Jason Schultz
                    Times-Delta

                    Tulare County animal control officials are looking for homes for a female
                    dog
                    and one of her puppies after a Tulare man was charged with killing four
                    other
                    puppies from the litter by shredding them in a farm machine. Brandon James
                    Ferguson, 25, was arrested Wednesday on suspicion of animal cruelty.
                    According to Tulare County Sheriff's Lt. Donna Perry, Ferguson is suspected
                    of killing the four puppies, believed to be about 2 months old, by putting
                    them into a harvester while the machine was running. Tulare County animal
                    control officer Daniel Bailey described the machine as having two
                    4-foot-long
                    blades and several smaller ones that operated in a grinding and shredding
                    action. Ferguson worked at BV Custom Chopping in the 3300 block of South I
                    Street in Tulare. The 2-year-old mother and her five puppies, described as
                    labrador retriever mixes, were strays that had been hanging around the shop.
                    Bailey said Tulare County Animal Control received an anonymous call
                    Wednesday
                    reporting that Ferguson had put the four puppies into the harvester Tuesday.
                    Bailey said he and sheriff's deputies found blood and the remains of the
                    puppies inside the machine. He said they also found remains, including five
                      paws, at a washing area behind the shop. "It was like seeing something out
                      of
                      a horror movie," Bailey said. "I have done this for many years, and this is
                      the worst I have ever seen." Bailey said Ferguson was working at the shop
                      when deputies arrived, and when witnesses identified him as the man who
                      killed the dogs, he was arrested. Bailey said he did not know if Ferguson
                      made any statements about the incident. Perry said investigators have not
                      established a motive for killing the puppies. Ferguson was booked into the
                      Tulare County Adult Pre-Trial Facility pending arraignment. Bailey said the
                      mother and the remaining female puppy rescued from the shop are at the
                      Companion Animal Medical Center in Visalia. Bailey said the dogs will be
                      kept
                      there until the criminal case against Ferguson is resolved. Then they will
                      be
                      available for adoption. Arnold Vera, the owner of BV Custom Chopping, was
                      not
                      available for comment.
                      Mr. Ferguson's Preliminary Hearing is set for July 24,2001 at 8:30 AM at the
                      Tulare Court House.
                      His trial is set for July 31, 2001 at 8:30 at the Tulare Court House.

                      Tulare County District Attorney
                      Sharon Saunders
                      221 S. Mooney Blvd
                      Room 224
                      County Civic Center
                      Visalia, CA 93291
                      Te:(559) 733-6411
                      Fax: (559)730-2658
                      Bureau of Investigations:
                      (559) 733-6600
                      Please contact Sharon Saunders and urge that she prosecute this case to the
                      fullest extent of the law and charge this man with the maximum penalty.
                      To follow this case, here is the website address for the Tulare County DA's
                      Office:
                      www.da-tulareco.org



Sunday 08/26/2001 0:34:23am
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: ....and you guys call this man a "hero", I call him a nazi in disguise. Don't believe me? Check
                     it out!

                      August 24, 2001
                      AP
                      DISABILITY RIGHTS ACTIVIST PROTEST EUTHANASIA ADVOCATES
                      APPEARANCE
                      Dateline: Concord, N.H.
                      Disability rights activists are protesting a planned visit by a bioethics professor who believes
                      parents should be able to euthanize severely disabled infants.
                      Peter Singer, who teaches at Princeton University, has been invited to a conference on
                      genetics and bioethics in Concord on October 5. The Governors Commission on Disability
                      invited him. Singer has argued for legalizing euthanasia for severely disabled infants less than
                      a month old and for some adults with severe mental disabilities.

                      He also says well off americans should contribute much more to the fight against hunger &
                      poverty and considered the philosophical father of the animal rights movement.

                      Not Dead Yet, a national activist group based in Forest Park Illinois said the invitation to
                      Singer was appalling.
                      "This is a direct insult to thousands of disabled people in New Hampshire and millions across
                      the country", group President Diane Coleman wrote to the commission. "He advocates
                      changes in public policy that would deprive millions of people with cognitive disabilities
                      equal protection of the law and allow those who do not meet his fuzzy criteria for personhood
                      to be killed by medical professionals with the consent of their families".

                      I'll quit typing the story at this juncture, you should have the point.

                      The story goes on to say that Singer was invited in order to face his critics, and that the
                      Governor holds him in disdain. Want to see it for yourselves? Go to the AP wire, it's there.




Saturday 08/25/2001 11:58:53pm
              Name: mark
             E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Once again, I would like to see the paper shredder that is large enough to accomodate the
                     smallest of living in one piece puppies. I have chihuahuas, their pups are real small, and I
                     don't believe they would even fit. Sounds to me like something is being left out here.




Saturday 08/25/2001 11:43:44pm
              Name: Paula
             E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Cat

                      The man who is responsible for putting those puppies through a shredder should go to jail for
                      life.

                      He is a very dangerous criminal, a murderer to be more precise, ans is a danger to society.
                    If he does not go to jail then the judge who makes the decision is also a criminal or is simply
                    not aware that his daughter could be next.


Saturday 08/25/2001 11:36:22pm
              Name: Paula
             E-Mail: psychosexy74@hotmail.com
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Birthe

                    There is really nothing much that can be done by posting about this on an ALF board.


                    I have visited your website and signed your petition. There has to be enough opposition
                    against it in Romania as well as international opposition. To raise more awareness of this you
                    need to get in contact with legal animal rights organizations. Influential ones that have made a
                    difference for animals.

                    Do WSPA know about this? What about the RSPCA? Isn't there an ALF in Romania that can
                    help rescue individual dogs?

                    I am outraged if the regulars on this board did not visit your website and sign your petition.


                    You need to get an organization to take this on, and the Romanian government need to be
                    humiliated infront of the rest of the world.

                    I will write to various organizations tomorrow, including individuals in the Romanian
                    government. I have seen email addresses at your website. In the meantime perhaps you can
                    tell me what organizations are aware of this mass murder, and what has been done so far.




Saturday 08/25/2001 9:21:33pm
              Name: The Cat
             E-Mail: alleycats@btiinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Hi all.

                    Cheers Mark,

                    The man is unhinged, should be incarcerated. Protect your children.



Saturday 08/25/2001 8:37:16pm
              Name: mark
             E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
         Comments: .....and just comment would you want out of me on this Cat? The fact remains the man is a
                    criminal and should be prosecuted, and that is all I have to say about that! There is a
                    difference in killing for the sake of killing and what I do. Again, my concerns are with
                    wildlife. Like all these dogs we keep talking about, instead of protesting and crying on here,
                    why aren't each of you making your way to the place where this is happening, load them all
                    up and take them home. THEN you will have done something for them.




Saturday 08/25/2001 4:34:35pm
              Name: Marianne Schaefer
             E-Mail: marianne.schaefer@12move.de
   Homepage URL:
           Location: Germany
         Comments: PLEASE HELP!!!!!
                     Please help to stop dog-killing in
                     Bukarest Romania.
                     Please see the http://asokha.tripod.com/
                     bioethics/index.html
                     http://paw-europe.com/news.html
                     www.streunerhunde.de
                     HELP!!!HELP!!!PLEASE!!!HELP!!!PLEASE!!

                      Marianne Schaefer



Saturday 08/25/2001 10:20:10am
              Name: The Cat
             E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Hi all,

                      Received comfirmation about the death of the puppies this morning from IDA. Gets worse,
                      the guilty party is alleged to have threatened to use the puppies as baseballs, he has also
                      pleaded guilty to these charges to avoid "ridicule". Over to you Mark.


Saturday 08/25/2001 9:50:23am
              Name: Birthe Fiedler
             E-Mail: Blonde_Poison@web.de
   Homepage URL:
           Location: Germany
         Comments: Why could I not find here anybody, who is interested to help?

                      To ALF: If nobody will help us, all the straydogs in Bukarest will be dead at the end of the
                      year. I thought ALF is a large organisation of activist, who are really interested to help.
         Comments:




                      Why don´t I get responses?

                      Kind Regards,

                      Birthe Fiedler


                      PS: Check the HPs http://asokha.tripod.com/bioethics and www.streunerhunde.de
                      ALF response: You have done your part in getting out the information. ALF is a large
                      ANONYMOUS organization. Nobody will not be contacted. If anybody helps, you'll never
                      know. ALF members typically try NOT to draw attention to themselves, so they will not
                      make newspapers. We'll help if we can.



Saturday 08/25/2001 3:36:07am
              Name: mark
             E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Well then, substitute "anybody" for "he"



Saturday 08/25/2001 1:35:23am
              Name: mark
             E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Wasn't me that said bitchy (LOL). Well, that is true, 0% of the animals survive, even the ones
                     they keep for breeders because the WHOLE truth about life is that none of us will get out of
                     it alive!
                     By the way, reviewing posts I noted Veggie once again expressed a desire to kill humans in
                     order to "so called" save the animals. How long do you intend to allow things to go on like
                     that? Personally, I wish he would come to see me and give it a try, lol.ALF response:
                     Veggie's posts are short and they don't threaten any specific person or company. Nobody
                     could sue him for making those threats. However, your post is directed at him. It would be
                     fine if you said, "I'd like to see ANYBODY try." A post in this vein is the recent post by the
                     fireman who, I expect, would like to set our bippies on fire.




Friday 08/24/2001 11:01:40pm
              Name: mark
             E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Cat the mink are domesticated in that they were raised dependent on humans for their food,
                     shelter etc. Also, I would love to see the shredder made that was large enough to accept the
                     bulk of ANY puppy!
        Comments:


                    ALF Responder, the information is there. I generally get it when it is fresh and wouldn't know
                    where to search when it is old news. But the truth is just what I told you, at least from the
                    reports I get. With that being said, we both know unless we were there to see it for ourselves
                    we don't know do we?ALF responder: Correct. The only statistic that I am sure of is that 0%
                    of all animals survive (notice how I didn't left out the time-frame?). Frankly, a great portion
                    of my job is statistics, so I am overly sensitive (did someone behind me say 'bitchy?') to their
                    use and misuse.



Friday 08/24/2001 7:36:23pm
              Name: The Cat
             E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Hi all,

                    Message for Mark. Mink are not domesticated. They are bred to be killed by people who
                    make a profit from their fur. They are "housed" in cages no bigger than themselves, is this
                    domesticated, no, this is prison, by people who have no other way of making money. Don't
                    tell me that "mink farmers" love their animals they love their bank balance. Who wears fur,
                    the rich, the powerful, and the pathetic human who enjoys power over the vulnerable.



Friday 08/24/2001 6:55:46pm
              Name: The Cat
             E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Hi all,

                    Checkout Ananova. Protest outside the Canadian Embassey in UK. It's OK to hunt grizzly
                    bears...why. Also really nasty, in US four puppies were put through a shredder because they
                    upset a worker in a factory. No doubt he will be told not to do it again. When I read stuff like
                    this, I would like to distance myself from the human race. I welcome comments.




Friday 08/24/2001 5:53:29pm
              Name: The Cat
             E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Hi all,
         Comments:

                      Kathryn contact Drs.Ray and Jean Greek, Americans for Medical Advancement, good
                      scientific data proving once and for all that the "science" of animal experiments is negligent,
                      fraudulent and exists because of, yes you have guessed it MONEY. Also last year 5000 mink
                      were liberated in UK by ALF and of course those with vested interests, shouted we care
                      about our animals,theft, environmental disaster, irresponsibility, strangely most of the mink
                      survived and so did the environment. Sadly the "mink farmers" did not, however I believe
                      some have relocated to other countries fine with me. Cheers BD for your comments.




Friday 08/24/2001 4:52:21pm
              Name: mark
             E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Responder the fact has been proven time and again. Each time "they" "liberate" domestic
                     mink most are recaptured. Those that aren't die due to the lack of survival skills in their wild
                     cousins. Accept it or deny it if you will, but in each instance that has been proven.ALF
                     responder: Foolishly I decided to see if I could find information to support any claim of the
                     outcome of freed animals. I searched the internet for several hours. Nothing compelling, only
                     speculation. Hmmm. I should have known better. Excuse me while I go kick myself. Hard.

                      On the other? I love the way you think, mink prices are already on the rise due to such
                      thoughtless acts of terrorism. Once again, to the animals, misguided people such as these
                      have served to do more harm than good.
                      One of the primary reasons these mink will likely not be marketed this year (though they
                      probably will be culled) is the stress put on them by releasing them. (Like Ripleys),
                      BELIEVE IT OR NOT! LOL



Friday 08/24/2001 2:12:46pm
              Name: Kathryn Kovach
             E-Mail: bizshows@worldnet.att.net
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: PROTEST AT THE BANK OF NY HEADQUARTERS
                     Friday, August 24th, 12pm-2pm

                      Meet at Corner of Wall Street and Broadway at 12pm Sharp!

                      (Be sure to wear black for funeral for 500 animals who die each day at HLS)

                      Directions* (by train)
                      ++++++++
                      Take the 6 train to the Wall Street Stop *or*
                      Take the A, C, or E to the World Trade Center Stop;
                      then walk east until you reach Broadway,
                      make a right along Broadway and walk south until Wall Street.
                      ++++++++++++++++++
Directions* (by car)
+++++++++++++++++++
From New Jersey*
Take the NJ Turnpike (95 North),
get off at exit 14 "Holland Tunnel",
take the Holland Tunnel into NYC $6,
exit onto Canal Street,
travel east along Canal St until you reach Broadway,
make a right onto Broadway,
follow broadway until you reach Wall Street.


VEGAN BBQ
SATURDAY AUGUST 25th
12pm - approx. 4pm
Buccleuch Park, New Brunswick NJ

The main entrance to the park is on Easton Ave., New Brunswick, right across from St. Peters
Medical Center. Take Rt. 287 to exit 10. Stay right on
Easton Ave, after about 4 miles the park will be on you left.
Both the Garden State Parkway and Turnpike take you to Rt. 287.

ACTIVIST WORKSHOPS
Sunday August 26th
American Legion Post #214
One Legion Place, South River NJ 08882
(732) 254-9712
Starting promptly at 1pm and running until 8pm.
*Note: please be on time, as we will be running a tight schedule in order to
make this experience as effective as possible!

From the Turnpike: Take exit #9 (New Brunswick). Get onto Rt. 18 S. After
about 1 3/4 to 2 miles take Arthur st. (you will have to go ACROSS Rt. 18)
At the end of Arthur St., make a right. Then an immediate left onto Kamm
Ave. You will soon see a fenced in mansion, at the end of the fence make a
left on Whitehead the legion will be about a 1/2 mile down the road.
From Rt. 287: Take exit #1, to Rt. 1. Take Rt. 1 S to Rt. 18 S. Follow above
directions.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For Further Information or Directions, contact
pumkin_007@hotmail.com or SugrPHunyB@aol.com.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"We're proud of our involvement with HLS and the work they do. Without
animal medical research, and the firms like HLS that conduct it, our society
would be without many of the treatments that we take for granted today such
as penicillin, the polio vaccine, and insulin for diabetes. The future of
the world's health depends on animal medical research."
-Frank Thomas, Stephens Inc
Friday 08/24/2001 9:50:07am
              Name: chris stubbs
             E-Mail: stubbsmcd@btinternet.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Recently visited Berlin and went to the Zoological Gardens (v. famous place!).
                     Was horrified at the obvious signs of stress exhibited by the Polar Bears, Hippos and Brown
                     Bears, to name a few.
                     How can the German authorities condone this zoo? What's being done to alleviate the stress
                     and release these animals???ALF response: For the first time in history some folks, like
                     yourself, are drawing attention to the feelings of circus and zoo animals. If nothing else, it
                     makes others aware and more careful. It's a start.


Friday 08/24/2001 7:11:06am
              Name: Sharon
             E-Mail: sharonmcknight@hotmail.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments:



Friday 08/24/2001 4:33:08am
              Name: mark
             E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Well I can see Karins point in her posts, and if all of what she says is true then I don't blame
                     her for feeling the way she does BUT. All she says really isn't true, and if you will do your
                     research you will find that this family was in violation of numerous state laws dealing with
                     Kennels. They were cited numerous times and told to locate homes for the animals or face
                     further prosecution. No effort was really made on their part, and the couty ordered the
                     Humane Society to care for and shelter the dogs. The HS went in and cleaned up the cages,
                     and turned the shelters into liveable areas from which they could adopt as many dogs out as
                     possible. As is the policy of most county run Humane Societies after so long, they
                     "unadopted" are euthanized. Now if she REALLY wanted to help these dogs she wouldn't ask
                     you to write the judge or go protest, she would adopt a number of them herself, and
                     encourage us to do the same thing. You can find out more of the truth through the Shelbyville
                     Gazette, or the Nashville Tennessean, also if you will look into the archives of WLAC-TV
                     Nashville you will find the story. I haven't checked lately, but they had footage of the sqaulid
                     conditions these animals were living in.



Friday 08/24/2001 4:16:29am
              Name: mark
             E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Well Banfur, I see how this will backfire on you (in two ways). The first is that those mink
                   who are not recaptured will die due to exposure and starvation (they aren't wild you know),
                   however most will be recaptured. Proven fact, less than 1% ever survive in the wild.ALF
                   response: The above statement has been proven only inside the cavernous recesses of Mark's
                   mind. Although he has let us peek inside his mind, we don't see the same things. It's dark and
                   cold in there.
                   The second way it will backfire on you (and I love this) is it will take many farmed mink out
                   of the fur trade, thus making my wild mink much more valuable. My "thanks" to those
                   industrious criminals. In spite of that, I hope they are caught and prosecuted under the
                   International Animal Welfare Act.ALF response: The liberators would be thrilled if mink
                   coats became so rare that Mark could get a million dollars for one.



Friday 08/24/2001 2:27:03am
              Name:
             E-Mail: BanFurNow@aol.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Unknown activists have released 16.800 minks in Valkenswaard. The animals lived at the
                     Maastrichterweg, said a spokesperson of the police
                     Around 4 oclock car drivers noticed a lot of animals passing by the road. W. verhagen,
                     spokesperson of the fur farmers, said that thousands of cages have been opened and the
                     activists cut through metres of fence to give the minks the change to escape.

                     Most of the minks have been found within the farm, but thouands of minks escaped. probably
                     most minks are within a few kilometres around the farm but it's really hard to catch them,
                     because the animals can find shelter in the corn and bushes.
                     Around hundred people were helping to catch the escaped animals. the police blocked the
                     road and also the fire department is helping. W Verhagen and the police suspect that the
                     liberation is done by an anti-fur group!! (what an intelligence!) Never before so many minks
                     have been liberated in Holland and probably also not in the whole world. The fur association
                     stated that most farms have security but not this farm!! Verhagen stated that the damage

                     done to the farm is at least 100.000 guilders and probably much more!
                     The newspapers are objective about the raid, they even write about "liberation" and one
                     paper wrote that mink skins are used in the fur industry and that the raid was a protest against
                     fur farming. this is the 14th mink liberation since 1999 in Holland, minks have been liberated
                     in Meijel, Putten (3 times), Nootdorp (3 times), Barchem (3 times), Vredepeel,

                     Zwammerdam, Neer and last night in Valkeswaard.

                     One liberation took place in Belgium in Essen. Over 45.000 have been liberated in these
                     actions. In Millheeze 9 trucks of a mink feeding proccessor have been burned down, in
                     Barchem barns with machinery
                     have been burned down, and a fur farmer saw his new build house sabotaged with butter acid.


                     (the raid in Neer, 2000 minks liberated, was the first raid this year and was done at daylight.
                      Following the news a bike was found and no fences were destroyed to make an escape route.
                      probably the persons were interrupted by the mink feeding truck, no arrests have been made.
                      No group claimed the action)
                      The government still haven't banned fur farming and with the recently criticism of the
                      European Union it is still the question if the Netherlands will ban fur farming. There are 191
                      fur farms with a total of 2.8 million minks in Holland, also a few fox and chinchilla farms
                      which will be banned in 2008 and 2005. the fur farms are still growing bigger, even though
                      the political situation is unstable.
                      New farms will be build as well as new sheds and barns!! Problably they better understand
                      the power of economics then the actiongroup Fur fur Animals which already claimed that
                      THEY banned fur farming!!
                      The fur industry is a strong sector which brings in 300 million guilders every year... The mink
                      liberations and other sabotage actions are responsible for extra costs, mink farmers have
                      invested for millions in security systems. it also makes the fur industry a risky job. The profits
                      are much higher than in other agri-cultural businesses but it doesn't seem like many farmers
                      are interested to farm fur animals.



Friday 08/24/2001 2:06:39am
              Name: Kent Scheel
             E-Mail: kesche@cpinternet.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: BEFORE YOU @#%$! THINK OF ARSON THINK OF HOW YOU'LL HANDLE 1
                     PISSED OFF FIREFIGHTER


Friday 08/24/2001 2:02:26am
              Name: Alyce
             E-Mail: alyce@extremezone.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Hi Vegimite.. Maybe we could round up enough ARA and go crash their party..



Friday 08/24/2001 1:32:34am
              Name: Oana Cata
             E-Mail: oana12@hotmail.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location: Timisoara, Romania
         Comments: It's illegal what Basescu makes, but it seems he's more powerful than law itself! Is there any
                     European or international organization who can stop him??



Friday 08/24/2001 0:03:15am
              Name: vegimite
             E-Mail:
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
        Comments: In all my time, one ogf the worstest animal tradegies has been the slaughtering of baby seal,
                  these babies were buthchered while their moms watched helpleslly, the hunters having no pity
                  whatsoever, next time i say we get the hunters and butcher their kids in cold blood, as I belive
                  in an eye for an eye



Thursday 08/23/2001 8:39:42pm
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Hi all,

                    I can assure you I have no dispensation from ALF. He/she has deleted a fair few of my
                    postings. Let's just say we have a cultural difference. Anyway anyone heard of Dick
                    Passingham the "scientist" who brain damages primates for the benefit of mankind, so much
                    so that the primates are so deprived of their neurons and synapses that all they can do it paw
                    at their cages. He receives huge "research" budgets and is speaking in NZ at vivisectors
                    convention. Won the "mad science" award two years running. Let's hear it for Dick and how
                    appropriate the name.



Thursday 08/23/2001 5:58:33pm
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments:
                    Meriwether:

                    Bwahahahah!

                    That was my honest initial reaction to your most recent post. You managed to insult 3 out of
                    4 posters in one entry.

                    Okay, here we go...

                    Karin, as a first-time poster, may not be aware of how to keep posts short and to the point.
                    We've ALL been guilty of this, myself included. She obviously feels very strongly about what
                    she wrote and I'm glad she brought this situation to my attention. BTW karin, I did contact
                    the Shelbyville-Bedford Humane Society to get more details on the case, I have yet to hear
                    back from them.

                    I don't see where Cat has "slung mud" anymore than say--you. As a matter of fact, it seems to
                    me that he/she has done nothing but address the issues one-by-one. Look through the posts
                    and tell me Cat has been more insulting than you or Mark.
                  Hey Alyce, my favorite time to play loud rock & roll in the woods is about from 3:30 to 5:00
                  am on the opening day of deer season. The deer don't seem to like it much though. They run
                  far, far away from it. Bet it's really hard to find them after someone does that! Hehe.


                  Haha! Now why would I go and mess with steroids?

                  Ahhh, the retort to my anatomy post. Well, like I said, I found it nonsensical. And besides,
                  the information was presented from both of us, so really the only thing left to do is read both
                  posts and decide which makes more sense. I did that and came to my own conclusion. There's
                  really no reason to argue about it.


Thursday 08/23/2001 4:46:38pm
             Name: Alyce
            E-Mail: alyce@extremezone.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Karin,

                  Blah, blah, blah, blah, bl-bla-bl-blah. Get a diary.

                  ***Thanks for the post Karin. I liked it..
                  I asked if Alyce smoked Crack and it got cut....what gives?

                  ***No I've never done drugs. Not even a joint. I don't drink, smoke or chew..

                  Killing gophers is just a treat. He does it Naturally, I didn't have to train him.

                  ***If your dog was hungry and needed to kill for food I would say nothing. But letting your
                  dog kill for fun is discusting.

                  And talk about torture.....playing rock and roll music to scare beaver? That's torture.

                  *** Oh yes, your a cowboy. Definitely should have been country..

                  They were probably doing what came natural, why chase them away?

                  ***Good point..

                  youngsters down there need to learn what a Conibear is!

                  ***Sounds to me like they already know what a cornibear is...


                  BD,

                  Have you taken so many steroids that your brain shrunk and made you BRAIN DEAD.


                  ***At least he has a brain which is more that I can say for you. So there!
Thursday 08/23/2001 3:55:36pm
             Name: Meriwether
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Karin,

                      Blah, blah, blah, blah, bl-bla-bl-blah. Get a diary.


                      Cat,

                      You must have special privileges from ALF. You mudsling more than anyone and it get's left.
                      I asked if Alyce smoked Crack and it got cut....what gives?


                      No Alyce,

                      I didn't get my dog a ball, he is still perfectly happy chasing cattle, as he is a Bordie Collie
                      which is bred for herding. Killing gophers is just a treat. He does it Naturally, I didn't have to
                      train him. And talk about torture.....playing rock and roll music to scare beaver? That's
                      torture. They were probably doing what came natural, why chase them away? Maybe some of
                      those youngsters down there need to learn what a Conibear is!


                      BD,

                      Have you taken so many steroids that your brain shrunk and made you BRAIN DEAD.


                      The post I referred to was the one that retaliated against your taxonomy-anatomy argument
                      that you so handily copied from some misguided source on "your side".



Thursday 08/23/2001 3:37:14pm
             Name: Marianne Schaefer
            E-Mail: marianne.schaefer@12move.de
   Homepage URL:
          Location: Germany
        Comments: Please HELP !!! HELP !!!HELP!!
                    Please help to stop the dog-killing in
                    Bukarest Romania.
                    www.streunerhunde.de
                    Please!Please!

                      Marianne Schaefer
Thursday 08/23/2001 10:14:46am
             Name: Birthe Fiedler
            E-Mail: Blonde_Poison@web.de
   Homepage URL: http://asokha.tripod.com/bioethics
          Location: GERMANY
        Comments: Please see the HPs http://asokha.tripod.com/bioethics + www.streunerhunde.de (available in
                    english) and help!!!

                     It is to late to sign only petitons. They are killing 500 dogs per day. Until now they killed 1/3
                     of all the straydogs in Bukarest.

                     Let´s travel to Bukarest and do something!

                     Kind Regards,

                     Birthe Fielder



Wednesday 08/22/2001 11:02:12pm
            Name: Karin
           E-Mail: LadeSouza@aol.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Hi

                     I returned from Tennessee this morning. It took 17 hours each way, because all
                     roads are under construction.

                     Four hours from home, in a small Oklahoma town called Henryetta, I picked up a
                     Collie, that was staggering across the Main Street. It was freshly clipped, had a collar, but
                     when I left it in the care of a police officer at the Police station that I took it too, I felt it's
                     weight as light as a feather and should have taken it with me.

                     The officer put the dog into an iron cage, on the back of a pick--up, something that is used in
                     almost every town in Oklahoma and truely is cruel, because these cages
                     have no top and get severaly hot! Often the animals are left in them during the hot summer
                     time.

                     That's why I called them early this morning and was told, that they had no idea what did
                     happen to the animal and I feel so guilty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                     I was tired, I was upset and still had my mind on the Shelbyville case and the dogs
                     that are waiting to be killed, because some people think they are God and know it all.

                     The Roch family is made up of very loving, caring and now deeply hurt people, that
                     are waiting every day to be put into prison, because they are refusing to kill the
                     animals, even though the Judge ordered them to do so.

                     They are common, ordinary people that did they best to save these animals and
                     looking at the 51 remaining dogs, I know they did a great job.
Their farm animals are also very good looking. Non of them is scared and they are
all very happy and gentle.

A man, assigned by the court who comes on the property every day, to see that they all have
food and water, which I am SURE none of them ever lacked, hits the cages with his stick and
the day before I left, he said that he wished they would kill all the animals on the farm.


Their attorney told me, that he would personally help to put the dogs down, because
when he was on the property, they jumped up at the fences and barked at him and scared
him....

I went inside of all cages, except 2, which held young and rambunctious dogs, but
not because I think they are viscous, but because I was to pooped to be tackled
by them.

The Family is horrified, scared to death ... intimidated and all they want is to be left alone.
They want to sell their home and leave with their animals, BUT I still think and
they think, that the Humane Society is out to get it all ... their farm animals and property as
well.

These people, that have given many years of their lives, never received any help
from the Humane Society, nor the community ...are being treated like criminals!

I could see the deep hurt in their eyes, see their frustration, see their hopelessness
and feel the same as they do. Only after 3 days I fell in love with their animals but had no
transportation for them, nor the right to take them, since they are under
court order.

Only their vet and also Ann Bullert came and talked to me. I believe that she is in it,
because she says ... she loves Kay Petty ( head of the Shelbyville Humane Society) to pieces
and that this woman worked so hard on this case ... to place all the dogs they took, etc. She
said that the Humane Association is broke and they would not turn lose of any of the
$20,000. that the Roch family is ordered to pay.
( Ann Bullert is the editor of the Time Cassette in Shelbyville.)

So they get $20,000 ... try to solve the issue as quiet as possible, as they said they would like
to do ...and FORCE the Family to kill their animals.
If they refuse, they are put into prison, because of contempt of the court and they
pay more fines, more attorney fees and suffer more abuse.

These people have never been in front of a Judge and are being treated as common
criminals.

The clown who was assigned by the court and hit the cages with his stick, also called our
police department, in his words ... he did some background check--up on me. He said he
talked to our Police Chief and stated, that he was in the Vietnam
War and I had nothing to say, because I was not an American citizen and only here on a
Green Card.
A police officer who accompanied him at the time, heard it all. I don't think he liked the
remark, because he looked like a Mexican to me. The old guy also bragged, that
he used to train police dogs with a club
He insisted on messing with the horses which are not under the court order, because the
Agriculture department told the Humane Society to stay away from the farm animals. Kay
Petty has already taken farm animals and horses away from other people and sold them.


Anyway, the guy with the cane carried a video recorder around his neck.

When I ask his permission to video tape him with my camera, I zoomed in on his cane. He
noticed and said ... yea, take a good picture of my cane.

My mouth ran away with me and I asked him if the cane was his defense weapon against all
the mean dogs, he totally freaked and got angry.
I told him, I was just joking, but he kept bragging about what a good man he was ...
that he had an adopted son ... that he was in the war ...

Anyway, this all has turned very ugly and Elaine's elbow, which was injured during the arrest
and shoulder are still hurting. Her blood pressure is way too high and her
sister has problems with her stomach and vomits blood, ever since all this started.

The court also demanded for the old people to move all the kennels, but this was
impossible and they also felt it was a waste of time, because they wanted to have the dogs
anyway.
Besides that, there is nothing wrong with the cages in the first place.

I have never in my life seen such ignorance and greediness, nor cruelty, nor heard so many
lies.

And while this family that cared about all creatures, rescued tiny birds with broken legs and
wings ... even saved snakes from the road, rescued stray after stray ...
these greedy, selfish people are destroying their lives.

The Family might be in contempt of the court, BUT THE JUDGE AND THE NO -- GOOD
HUMANE SOCIETY, THAT HAS PERSONALLY REQUESTED THE COURT TO KILL
THE REMAINING DOGS AND WON'T STOP UNTIL THEY HAVE IT ALL .... ARE IN
CONTEMPT OF GOD AND WHAT GOES AROUND, COMES AROUND!

And while the family is being crucified, most of the elite Humane Societies of this country
attended the NO--KILL conference and could not help. According to the Roches own
attorney, the animals have only 2 days left.

I remember a coondog, that nipped one of the many people, during the raid. When I was
there, he licked me ... wanted to play and go for a ride.
The raid drove all the animals crazy, especially because the radio station had announced that
they busted a puppy Mill and that the family was selling stolen dogs over the Internet. They
invited everyone who had lost their dog, to come and look for it on the families property.

Many people came, chased the animals, took some away, even though they did not belong to
them, according to the Roch family.

One guy tied a dogs legs together and threw it on the back of a pickup. Elaine said
she had the dog since she found it as a tiny, mangy puppy.
They all were named, they all were loved .....

I received a nice donation in the mail, for our animals today and I think I should return it. I do
not want to owe anyone anything, because I do not know how long I can keep up this fight for
the animals. It's all too depressing!!!

I just called the vet for an estimate, to spay and neuter 3 young cats and have them
vaccinated. He offered me a 25% discount and it's still over $200.

Our plumbing needs fixing. We have a water leak under the house, for the passed 3 days. Jere
wasn't here and Randall did not know. He thought it was a broken water heater at first, but the
water is standing under the house. All the pipes are full of
hard debris from the city water we are getting from a lake, 30 miles from here.

My last water bill and electricity bill came to circa $800.

At least Jere has calmed down and listened. He is outraged about the way the people in TN
are being treated and finally understands why I had to go to see them.
I only wish I could expose these lying people and help the Roch family.
I wrote the Judge a letter, offered to have the people move here ... take the animals,
but it would take at least until the end of the year to build new runs and we MUST wait until
it gets cooler, because we still have close to 100 degrees and it would take many trips to bring
everything here.
But he never even replied to my offer, maybe because I requested for the Humane Society to
pay for the transportation and to share the $20, 000, which the Roches are ordered to pay to
the Humane Society.

But I KNOW that I could bring the FAMILY here, I could trust them with my life, unlike
other people around here and I KNOW, they would give their best for all the animals and I
could work on getting some funding.... AND I like them very much!
They are as innocent as the strays they rescued and very humble. I fixed them up a little, put a
color rinse on their hair and showed them how to fix their make--up.
I was hoping it would take their minds off the horrible situation, but all they do is worry and
cry.

The 5 horses they have are so beautiful! The cows are fatter than ours ... 1 cow, 2 steers...

They also have 2 small donkeys ... each of them close to 20 years of age and 43 small goats,
all of them round and fat.
Hmmm ... I wonder how they survived without the Humane Society and all the alleged
cruelty!!!

Also, in case we have a miracle and for some reason the court and Humane society backs off,
we have a chance to get a huge horse trailer and truck ... a beautiful set--up, to buy for only
$12 000.

Ohhh well .... today the Roch family is passing out flyers at the Tennessee Walker Horse
Festival and hopefully someone will read them and help them.
                   As a Thank --You gift to me, for coming to help and for caring, they gave me a beautiful
                   heirloom, a gold cross and necklace with sapphires. I did not want to take it, told them to sell
                   it for the animals and attorney fees, but they said that they had
                   nobody and the court would steal everything anyway. It's one of the nicest things anyone ever
                   gave to me ... I wish I had come up with some idea, that would REALLY help them and the
                   animals.

                   Ok ... so much for animal rights and people that claim to help them. The animals are
                   the losers again .... God help those that hurt the innocent and forgive them, because they don't
                   know any better.... I guess .....


                   Be safe ... be happy! Karin

                   P.S. I just called the police in Henryetta ... they said "the dog escaped from the truck ... the
                   latch must have not worked properly...." HELP!!!!!!!!


Wednesday 08/22/2001 11:00:31pm
            Name: Karin
           E-Mail: LadeSouza@aol.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Hi

                   I MUST talk to someone in person. Is there anyone with ALF, who could give me a call? The
                   matter is extremely urgent!

                   It concerns the judgment by the Shelbyville, Bedford County Circuit Court, that ordered 51
                   perfectly healthy, happy dogs to put to death. The Judges name is Lee Russle.


                   I just got back from there, after 17 hours of straight driving time. Unless these
                   animals get support from other areas in this country, they will be killed and their
                   desperate owners put into prison.

                   The Bedford Humane Society is the one that requested the death of all the animals,
                   claiming that they are dangerous, which they are not! I myself was in every pen
                   and cannot believe that this is actually happening.

                   There is much more to it .... besides dirty politics, corrupted court system and the suffering of
                   the animals owners, that were sold out by their own attorneys.

                   Please write me and let me know, if someone is willing to call me and take all the details on
                   this case.

                   Thank You!



Wednesday 08/22/2001 8:29:47pm
            Name: Mark
          E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
        Location:
       Comments: BD, that junk you posted wasn't evidence it was propaganda and both of us know it. Nuff
                  said. Now be a good boy and go take your Prozac, (lol).
                  Actually it does (the boom box) do a good job of flushing the woods of deer, temporarily, but
                  effective. So effective in fact that I once set myself up in "fleeway" and took a nice buck. The
                  point is that it don't accomplish anything except a minimal temporary fix. Generally the
                  animals go into hiding, and not very far from where they started. Once the music ceases they
                  go back to doing what they were doing within hours. It doesn't matter where or what part of
                  the country, animal habits are animal habits, and that doesn't change. The ONLY effective
                  means to control populations (especially those who have become pests) is to trap or hunt
                  them. There is no relocation option on most of them, however during the course of my ADC
                  work, I do attempt to relocate when I can (at least during the non-fur season in the case of a
                  fur bearer). Keep in mind however that the relocation of coyotes and beaver (at least in my
                  area)is illegal due to their "nuisance" status. For one thing, nobody wants them relocated to
                  their property, for another, the state wants the populations to remain healthy, and thus culling
                  is the answer.




Wednesday 08/22/2001 8:17:03pm
            Name: The Cat
           E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Sorry ALF Responder misread. Grovel time. N'uff said.



Wednesday 08/22/2001 7:28:47pm
            Name: The Cat
           E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Hi all,

                     Can't believe the recent signings, are Mark and Meriwether on mood altering drugs, you
                     surely can't believe your own statements. I go back to my original comments. Mark, you are
                     in this "business" because of profit and because you clearly enjoy your chosen career. I don't
                     accept ALF responder that you have a point, the "owners" of fur are not those who buy and
                     sell it. Fur is beautiful and meant for the animal, if it was meant for humans they would be
                     provided with fur not skin. Fur is an industry, worn by stupid people who wish to flaunt their
                     wealth, shamefully supported by the fashion industry.ALF responder: I never said anything
                     about fur or its owner. Is everyone posting here getting pharmaceutical assistance?




Wednesday 08/22/2001 6:00:36pm
            Name: BD
          E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
        Location:
       Comments:

                      No BD it was not I who was backed in a corner, nor was it I who spouted propaganda when
                      backed into a corner, that is your MO.

                      ***I'm sure you're correct Mark. It must be the person who presented the DOCUMENTED
                      EVIDENCE who was backed into the corner, not the person who couldn't provide any
                      contrary evidence.

                      The "kills" were a for your information thing about populations disease ratio.

                      ***No, the kills were for my "benefit," not for population/disease ratio.

                      If I really wanted to post my kills here, you would get really pissed, remember squirrel season
                      opened here last weekend.

                      ***Well, how thoughtful of you not to try and piss us off by bringing it up.
                      I think you deserve a reward for that. You crazy guy you.

                      Alyce, that junk with Rock and Roll is only a temporary fix, when the music stops the beavers
                      return from their hiding places. I have seen that same experiment tried here, with a 0%
                      success rate.

                      ***Maybe it didn't work for you there, but perhaps it worked elsewhere. Stranger things have
                      happened.

                      Tell you what though, why don't you load up your favorite boom box and go to Mass. I
                      understand the beaver problem is terrible up there.

                      ***I hear this works well for flushing the woods before deer season too. Hmmm...


Wednesday 08/22/2001 5:29:56pm
            Name: mark
           E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: No BD it was not I who was backed in a corner, nor was it I who spouted propaganda when
                   backed into a corner, that is your MO. The "kills" were a for your information thing about
                   populations disease ratio. If I really wanted to post my kills here, you would get really pissed,
                   remember squirrel season opened here last weekend.
                   Alyce, that junk with Rock and Roll is only a temporary fix, when the music stops the beavers
                   return from their hiding places. I have seen that same experiment tried here, with a 0%
                   success rate. Tell you what though, why don't you load up your favorite boom box and go to
                   Mass. I understand the beaver problem is terrible up there.



Wednesday 08/22/2001 5:21:25pm
           Name: Alyce
          E-Mail: alyce@extremezone.com
   Homepage URL:
        Location:
       Comments: Mark,
                  Well, I just saw that neat segment on CNN. The one about the beavers. Seems the beaver
                  were messin things up a bit in the Florida wetlands.. They just played some good old rock
                  and roll and it looks like the beavers split. Taking their fur with them.. Sweet little cuddly
                  things.

                      And Meriwether, did you get you dog a ball?



Wednesday 08/22/2001 4:42:41pm
            Name: Birthe Fiedler
           E-Mail: Blonde_Poison@web.de
  Homepage URL:
         Location: Germany
       Comments: Please help to stop the dog-killing in Bukarest. The major of Bukarest has command to kill
                   all the straydogs in the city. There must be between 100.000 and 200.000 straydogs in
                   Bukarest. They started killing since the end of April. Recently they catch and kill over 500
                   dogs per day!!! They sell all the leather of the dogs to Italian Companies which produce in
                   Romania.

                      Please Help!!!! All methods of helping will be o.k. for me (and the dogs).

                      Please find more information at the homepage http://asokha.tripod.com/bioethics

                      You can contact me under

                      +492631978063.

                      Do not forget to check my Link! You will be shocked about what you will see!



Wednesday 08/22/2001 3:38:54pm
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments:

                      Yes, Mark backed into a corner, and I too find it humorous.

                      I don't get BACKED into a corner, because truth and ethics is IN my corner.

                      Not sure which lengthy post you're referring to, but if I read it and didn't respond, it's because
                      I found it nonsensical.
Wednesday 08/22/2001 3:13:34pm
            Name: Meriwether
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: BD,

                      Mark? Backed in a corner? Hah...that's a laugh. Not to be a mudslinger....but when you get
                      backed in a corner, it's you who comes up with propoganda that is created by your side that is
                      so off track that I wouldn't even try to decifer it for the half-truth it may possess.


                      Heck, you didn't even respond to my lengthy post...or if you did I never got to see it.

                      I think the best point it makes is that we are opportunistic feeders.

                      BTW, I haven't made any recent kills, but guess what....hunting season is coming.


Wednesday 08/22/2001 3:40:22am
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments:

                      Is it me, or has anyone else noticed that when Mark is backed into a corner and can't fight his
                      way out, he resorts to telling us all of his latest kill(s)?

                      Well, anyway, that was me who wrote the anonymous post. Satisfied now?



Wednesday 08/22/2001 3:32:17am
            Name: mark
           E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: You got to love anonymous posters, they don't have the balls to say what they have to say and
                   ID themselves at the same time. Oh well
                   Responder, I do love your sense of humor though, lol.
                   I got the lab results back on my 9th and 10th skunks taken through complaints this year today.
                   Both were rabid, I killed another tonight, this is a direct result of overpopulation I am sure,
                   no fur taken, just the elimination of a potential health hazard. This one tonight had all the
                   classic signs of both distemper and rabies. By the way, all of these skunks were taken after
                   complaints were lodged.



Wednesday 08/22/2001 0:18:13am
            Name:
          E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
        Location:
       Comments: The owners of the fur are the ones born with it. The thieves of the fur are the ones who ripped
                  it from the owners body.



Tuesday 08/21/2001 11:41:46pm
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: The owners of the fur are those who buy it, the ones who started with it were born with it.

                      ALF RESPONDER you have a point, a weak one, but one never the less. ALF: Goodie for
                      me!
                      If you could get someone who was not "impassioned" to report on this then it would be a
                      miracle, but the bottom line is this. Not one of you have witnessed what you are so
                      impassioned about, if you had, you would find what the "untruths" are, and that my friends is
                      the truth.ALF responder: All generalizatons are stupid (ps--that's a joke, you know, irony).
                      When discussing ideas it is not NECESSARY to discuss the person (or group) presenting
                      those ideas. You keep focusing on people, and genralizing. You may be able to see through
                      people, but it is making you miss what is inside them. That's the price you pay for the gift of
                      penetration. Of the ALF members I know, I can't find any words that fit all of them, except
                      "ALF".



Tuesday 08/21/2001 8:31:40pm
             Name: Alyce
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: BD your post was graphic and clearly depicts the inhumane slaughter of these beautiful
                    animals. It doesn't take a Phi Beta Kappa to know that getting whacked in the face and head
                    hurts. No person in their right mind would deny this. All for a piece of fur. Pretty sick if ya
                    ask me...


Tuesday 08/21/2001 7:46:08pm
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail: aleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Hi all,

                      Let's face it Mark, "harvesting" fur is making a living for you. Have you ever thought that
                      perhaps the owners of the fur might like to live out their lives without abuse from humans
                      who profit from their deaths. Don't know whether you have ever seen the famous David
                      Bailey advert, "poor @#%$! rich @#%$!" it says it all.
Tuesday 08/21/2001 7:21:54pm
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: touch'e responder. My entire point though was that BD continues to post articles that he
                    knows are written by supporters of the "anti" movement.ALF: Perhaps they were not
                    supporters until they did the study! The problem I have with them are obvious. Anyone who
                    has ever been around animals knows that "blunt trauma" does indeed cause damage to the
                    cranium, bullets cause holes, and ultimately death results in both, whereas BDs articles would
                    lead you to believe this is not the case. Anyone who has been around fur and furriers knows
                    that "bleeding out" is the least desirable way to harvest fur. The bottom line is this, it is not a
                    neutral but an unbiased source he should be hunting for.ALF: You would have to keep
                    finding folks who had no opinion. Sometime you will run out of folks who have no opinion.
                    Fact: There is almost no data published by anyone who does not have an opinion. You have
                    to pay attention to the logic, for that stands on its own. For example, would I invite you to a
                    political fund raiser or rally if you weren't aligned with my beliefs or the belief of my political
                    affiliation?ALF: You might invite me, but I assume you would not expect a sizeable
                    donation.



Tuesday 08/21/2001 6:28:14pm
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Hi all,

                       I hope that we are all horrified by genocide, what it is the difference, only that seal pups do
                       not have human faces. Who put the Con in Conservation.



Tuesday 08/21/2001 5:51:02pm
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
         Comments: I have to hand it to you BD, even when your wrong your still convinced you are right, so
                   what is the point? Once again, these articles are written by, and about people who support
                   your views and they prove absolutely nothing. Unless of course you choose to believe one
                   sided propaganda which is what "your side" is so famous for.ALF response: It is not logical,
                   as Spock would say, to claim that a statement is invalidated solely because of what someone
                   believed. This amounts to saying that anybody who says anything can't be trusted because
                   they believe what they just said. Ergo, we can't trust your opinion on anything anyone
                   believes, because they believed it. See how silly it sounds in general terms. But you keep
                   repeating it. You apparently think that we should trust only opinion that come from people
                   who are neutral, which means they don't have an opinion. This is a not brilliant deduction,
                   Holmes. The only relevant argument would be to prove that someone was making knowingly
                   false statements for profit. John Robbins proved the meat and dairy industry were making
                   knowingly false statements for profit and nobody has effectively contradicted him.Bottom
                   line, it is "trash talking" to discount someone without data. So expect all posts of this ilk to be



Tuesday 08/21/2001 2:11:07pm
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments:
                    Although I have not watched this yet, here is video of the 2001 Canadian seal hunt.

                      http://www.canadasealhunt.ca/see_seals/video.stm


Tuesday 08/21/2001 2:00:51pm
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments:
                    "Veterinarians charge seal hunt causing unacceptable suffering: While DFO says the hunt
                    meets humane standards, five vets argue many animals are still alive when hooked, dragged,
                    skinned"
                    The Guardian (Charlottetown)
                    Mon 09 Apr 2001
                    The Province
                    A4/News
                    Nancy Willis

                      Although personnel from the federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans say the commercial
                      seal hunt in Atlantic Canada meets humane standards derived from the Canadian Veterinary
                      Medical Association and the Royal Commission on Sealing, representatives of those
                      organizations tell a different story.
"It is quite clear from our personal observations that the present seal hunt fails to comply with
basic animal welfare regulations in every aspect,'' say five veterinarians who observed the
hunt from the ice and from the air last month and conducted post-mortem examinations on 76
seal carcasses.

They found 17 per cent of the skulls showed no impact from the sealers' clubs. An additional
25 per cent had minimum to moderate damage.

In a recent report, the veterinarians said as many as 42 per cent of seals killed recently were
likely alive and conscious when they were hooked, dragged and skinned.

"We conclude that the hunt is resulting in considerable and unacceptable suffering,'' they said.


The five veterinarians -- Ian Robinson and John Gripper of the United Kingdom, Debbie
Ruehlmann and Rosemary Burdon of the United States, and Alan Longair, former chair of the
Canadian Veterinary Medicine Association -- monitored the hunt at the invitation of the
International Fund for Animal Welfare (IFAW).

Their report recommends changes to the federal marine mammals regulations, which govern
how the hunt is carried out and enforced. The Department of Fisheries and Oceans is
currently reviewing the regulations.

Only 16 Prince Edward Islanders registered to take part in the commercial hunt compared to
several hundred Newfoundlanders and residents from the Iles-de-la-Madeleine.


However, more may have gotten licences through the Iles-de-la-Madeleine registry, says
DFO representative Jim Jenkins.

"We issued a fair number of observers' licences this year, but there was not much interest in
hunting locally because of the poor ice conditions,'' said Jenkins.

With large pan ice so limited, that meant most of the hunting would have to be done from
boats with rifles instead of clubs and the sealers don't find shooting them economic, he
explained.

What the veterinarians observed was that a large percentage of the young seals were still
conscious while being skinned alive, plus other cruel and inhumane practices.

The following is extracted from the report:

"Cranial evaluation of 76 seal carcasses produced data that clearly demonstrates the
occurrence of such suffering. In 17 per cent of the cases observed, there were no detectable
lesions of the skull, leading us to conclude that any alteration in consciousness is very
unlikely to have occurred as a result of clubbing.

"The Canadian government has indicated that the commercial seal hunt will continue
indefinitely. In light of this fact, we strongly feel that the adoption of a more reliable and
consistent procedure for the killing of seals can significantly reduce the present level of
suffering.
                   "We recommend that a process of rapid stunning (resulting in a rapid loss of consciousness),
                   followed immediately by a bilateral corneal reflex (`blinking eye' reflexes) check to assess
                   loss of consciousness, followed immediately by bleeding out to ensure death occurs, are
                   followed in order to reduce these levels of suffering. The bilateral loss of corneal is generally
                   accepted as the most accurate means of confirming a loss of consciousness.


                   "Shooting and clubbing should be viewed as stunning methods only, producing a potentially
                   temporary loss of consciousness. Death should be completed by bleeding out. All seals
                   should be treated and killed in the same manner under the same regulations, regardless of
                   whether the seal was initially shot or clubbed.

                   "It is very difficult to determine loss of consciousness in any seal by observation. Swimming
                   movements can be voluntary or involuntary. It is difficult to differentiate between involuntary
                   reflex movement and conscious voluntary movement without assessing higher centre activity.
                   It must therefore be assumed that all movement seen could be due to conscious voluntary
                   muscle activity until the corneal reflex has been checked.


                   "Any method for killing a seal which does not allow for the above process of stunning,
                   checking and bleeding to be performed has an enormous potential to create suffering and is
                   therefore unacceptable.

                   "As this process cannot be consistently followed in open water, we consider that shooting
                   seals in open water can never be humane. Any method of taking a seal which requires the seal
                   to be recovered by gaffing or hooking before the process can be followed, can never be
                   humane.

                   "Based on our observations, it is obvious that there is a tremendous lack of consistency in the
                   treatment of each seal and the existing regulations are neither respected nor enforced.''


                   The Guardian was unable to reach Frank Ring with DFO in Moncton. Ring is the man
                   handling the Atlantic seal hunt for DFO.

                   However, another DFO official, Roger Simon, said that the seal hunt is a commercial hunt
                   that meets the humane standards that were derived from the Royal Commission on
                   Seals/Sealing 1988 and the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association.

                   The report will be forwarded to the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association.



Tuesday 08/21/2001 1:52:29pm
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments:
Comments:

            "'IN MY VIEW' . . . The Canadian harp seal cull is inhumane, uneconomic and indefensible,
            says Stephen Harris, and similar issues arise whenever a commercial 'harvest' masquerades as
            'sustainable-use'"
            BBC Wildlife Magazine
            Fri 1 Jun 2001
            Stephen Harris

            The migration of around five million harp seals from Greenland to pup and mate on the pack
            ice off the Newfoundland coast and the Gulf of St Lawrence is one of the great wildlife
            spectacles of the world, rivalled only by the migration of caribou in the Arctic and wildebeest
            in East Africa.

            Walking among thousands of adult harp seals, many of which have just given birth, is a
            breath-taking experience.

            Yet this is also the site of one of the biggest marine mammal hunts in the world. This year's
            quota is a staggering 275,000, and most of the seals to be killed will be the 'beaters', pups
            more than 25 days old that have moulted out of their white coat and so-called because they
            beat the water as they learn to swim. Because they have poorly developed swimming powers,
            they are reluctant to leave the ice, and so they are easy prey for the sealers.


            The only organisation that monitors the hunt each year is the International Fund for Animal
            Welfare (IFAW), and this year I was invited to join it as an observer. I discovered first of all
            that the Canadian Government makes it as difficult as possible to watch the hunt.


            The pack ice is the only piece of public land in Canada where access is restricted to permit-
            holders, and even these have to be renewed on a daily basis, hardly the behaviour of a
            government with nothing to hide. Once on the ice, the helicopters are allowed no nearer than
            500 feet to the hunters, and being so far offshore, flying time is limited. For all these reasons,
            the hunt can be monitored only for brief periods.

            The reasons the Government restricts access to the hunt are obvious. Even hovering 500 feet
            above the ice, the cruelty was mind-numbing. Clubbing is frequently used to kill the seals,
            and as we hovered above our first kill, the pup was subjected to a series of nine blows which
            rained down on its body. It was unclear whether it was dead when it was hooked and dragged
            across the ice to the ship.

            We then flew on to watch a nearby boat at work. Because the ice was so thin this year, it was
            hard to chase and club the seals, and so many were shot. This may sound more humane but
            it's not. Again, we were watching from 500 feet, and so it was hard to see where the first seal
            was hit, but it was clearly in a great deal of distress. It fell into the sea spewing blood, swam
            around before dragging itself onto another piece of ice, crawled across this, then fell back
            into the water and carried on swimming in bloody circles. The sealers clearly didn't give a
            @#%$!. They left this pup and moved on to shoot two more, before returning to the first seal
            about four minutes later. They didn't check to make sure it was dead, but simply put a hook in
            it and dragged it aboard.
The complete indifference to the cruelty was the most horrifying aspect of the hunt, but it
appears to be the norm. IFAW has videos of seals struggling as they were dragged across the
ice with hooks, of seals being skinned when very much alive and of boats with half-dead seals
flapping around on the decks. It is an appalling spectacle and possibly unsurpassed in the
level of cruelty inflicted on a large mammal anywhere in the world. Yet Roger Simon, the
fisheries officer who overseas the seal hunt in the Gulf of St Lawrence, is adamant that the
hunt is humane and says the blows inflicted by the sealers are "accurate and quite
devastating," such that most seals are "put unconscious instantaneously."


A team of veterinarians, invited by IFAW to observe the hunt this year, has reached other
conclusions, however. The team collected 76 seal heads and found that 17 per cent of the
skulls were undamaged and a further 25 per cent had only minimum to moderate damage.
Often the blows landed on the facial area, inflicting a great deal of pain but not rendering the
animal unconscious. The horrifying conclusion is that 42 per cent of this sample of seals were
probably conscious when they were hooked, dragged and skinned - and that thousands of
pups suffer the same fate each year.

The main argument made to justify the hunt is an economic one, but in recent years it has
been kept going by subsidies, and last year the price of pelts was so low that only a third of
the quota was landed. The Canadian Sealers Association is trying to develop new uses for
seal products, such as oil and meat, but the carcasses of the seals we saw killed were dumped
after they had been skinned, and the ice was littered with their bodies. This is not surprising,
since for most people the meat is only edible if it is bleached, deodorised and then artificially
flavoured.

One of the few products that do sell are penises - as aphrodisiacs for the traditional Chinese
medicine market. In recent years, up to 30,000 penises have been sold. Rick Smith, director
of IFAW Canada, describes Canada as the "penis-pedlar to the world," hardly an epithet the
Canadian Government should be proud of. Perhaps more importantly, recent DNA analyses
have shown that the penises include those from protected species, such as wolves and wild
dogs.

Equally confused is the fundamental rationale behind the hunt. In a discussion document on
the management of Canada's Atlantic coast fisheries (the seal hunt is classified as a fishery)
released in February, "conservation and sustainable- use" is said to be the top priority. Yet
this year's quota of 275,000 is above the Government's own estimate of the sustainable
harvest. The seals are also hunted when they return to Greenland, and here the situation is
even worse - no quota is set and there is no reliable estimate of the numbers killed.


Fishermen have long argued that there are too many seals and that these have led to the
collapse of the cod fishery, but all the evidence shows that it collapsed because of
overfishing, fuelled by optimistic stock estimates, which led to overexploitation, and
inadequate monitoring. Exactly the same issues are reappearing with the seal hunt.
Worryingly, the Government that failed to prevent the collapse of the cod stocks is also
responsible for regulating the seal hunt. Widespread antipathy to the seals is part of the
problem. In 1998, John Efford, until February the Newfoundland Minister of Fisheries and
Aquaculture, said that he would like to see all the seals "killed and sold or destroyed or
burned," a sentiment far removed from the concept of a sustainable harvest.
                      The controversy surrounding the seal hunt is typical of the issues faced when harvesting a
                      natural resource. Similar problems were encountered with the kangaroo harvest in Australia,
                      with illegal killing of protected species and unacceptable levels of cruelty to adults and joeys.
                      Monitoring of the whale meat trade in Japan and South Korea has shown that the meat of
                      critically endangered species has also been sold.

                      Whether the meat came from recent hunts or stockpiles is unknown. All the experience shows
                      that, when commercial interests are involved, it is nearly impossible to manage a wildlife
                      harvest effectively. So why do many conservation organisations still support the concept of
                      wise-use? WWF-Canada supports the seal hunt, as long as it is sustainable - which it is now
                      questioning.

                      The lessons are depressingly familiar. Despite reassuring euphemisms such as "harvesting,"
                      commercial wildlife hunts generally suffer from the same problems: lack of monitoring,
                      excessive, unacceptable cruelty, overexploitation and the look-alike problem - the products of
                      rarer species being sold under the cover of a legal hunt. How many more examples do we
                      need before the concept of wise- or sustainable-use is finally discredited?


                      Stephen Harris is professor of environmental science at the University of Bristol and
                      chairman of the Mammal Society.



Tuesday 08/21/2001 1:28:37pm
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: What I was simply saying BD is that when you want the results to sway your way (you and
                    your being generic here) you invite the scientist (in this case vets)who are already
                    sympathetic with your cause. Of course I am saying they "dressed up" their documents, after-
                    all, the ARAs were "buying the groceries" weren't they?



Tuesday 08/21/2001 2:53:16am
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments:

                      Well MARK, are you saying these VETERINARIANS would put their REPUTATION on
                      the line and FALSIFY reports? No, Mark, I don't think so. You say you have PROOF this is
                      misinformation, then lay it out for ALL to see. I'm calling you on this one. You don't just
                      come on this board and say "it's not true, because I say so." You better have something--
                      ANYTHING to back yourself up. Good luck with your digging.


                      BTW, when did you prove this FACT to be fiction? I don't seem to remember that.
Tuesday 08/21/2001 2:14:42am
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Well ALF RESPONDER, I was being nice, actually, most of the time a club is more humane
                    than a bullet. Seals, like beaver have a "thin spot" just above the eyes and between the ears
                    that (when clubed) cause instant death, I just didn't want to go there in order to save the
                    "squeamish". So there, MOST OF THE TIME, the club is better than the bullet, I use it all
                    the time on beaver, and get better results than with a bullet.


Tuesday 08/21/2001 2:11:11am
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: I have already proven your fact to be fiction so your right, no need to go over it again. I say
                    again, they were invited by your side, do you really think your side would invite a vet who
                    didn't see things their way? Obviously not. Tell you what, let's do it again, and let my side
                    invite the vets again, and the story will be opposite. What would that accomplish? Absolutely
                    nothing, and that is my point BD, when you use folks who sympathize with your cause, you
                    are going to hear the answers you want to hear, and not necessarily the truth.




Monday 08/20/2001 11:45:02pm
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: Total speculation on your part Mark. Until you give me hard evidence of these vets being in
                   "cahoots" with these two orgs I'll place my money that they are not. Ya see, when you have
                   trouble proving something or if someone posts something you don't like or can't argue, you
                   pull stuff outta your arse. Well, that doesn't fly with me. This is old news and I have proven
                   with several articles in the past that this is FACT. If you want to rehash the whole scenario
                   again that's fine, but I doubt the ALF responder cares to have it all posted again. I proved it
                   once and you were unable to refute the EVIDENCE, why would you want to look like a fool
                   again? There's no need to prove that to us, we are well aware of it.




Monday 08/20/2001 11:01:39pm
            Name: mark
           E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
         Comments: For the fur Alyce, sometimes clubbing is faster and more humane than a bullet. Sorry, just the
                   way it isALF response: "Sometimes" is a poor word to use to make a point, regardless of
                   what side you are arguing. If you did not mean "most of the time" then you just claimed you
                   were correct only "sometimes". Not a particularly impressive fielding average in cricket.




Monday 08/20/2001 11:00:04pm
            Name: mark
           E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: Nope, the case remains closed. The Humane Society et.al. would not invite vets that were not
                   pro animal rights, and we both know it. They may not have "ties" to the SPCA or Humane
                   Society, but I'll bet they have done "work" for them before. Tell you what, let me invite a
                   number of vets, have "my side" pay for it (like they did) and let's see what the results are. Are
                   you sure you want to re-open this case?



Monday 08/20/2001 8:11:08pm
            Name: Alyce
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: Why are they killing the seals? Don't tell me they eat them..?? YUK..

                      Mark, Surely you don't think clubbing and animal to death is humane. I've seen it done and it
                      wasn't an ARA clip.
                      It was about the most sickening thing I've seen.
Monday 08/20/2001 6:32:56pm
            Name: The Cat
           E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: Hi Theodore,

                   Just read your comments. It's good to hear that there are people like yourself on this planet. I
                   hope that you manage to raise the money desired to allow this life force to continue.
                   Unfortunatly I can't suggest any source of funds other than appeal to the general public or in
                   your country IDA. Very best wishes.



Monday 08/20/2001 6:17:04pm
            Name: The Cat
           E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: Hi all,

                   I don't think I ever said that people like the taste of meat. I said that people in UK were
                   avoiding meat not because they didn't like the taste but because of health issues. I then went
                   on to say that meat eaters were turning to a vegetarian food source that proved to be both
                   nutricious and satisfying. Hope that I have made my comments a little more clear. Think we
                   were discussing BSE in the UK.



Monday 08/20/2001 5:18:11pm
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments:

                   Mark:

                   Where in this article does it say these five INDEPENDENT veterinarians represent the
                   Humane Society or the SPCA?

                   Better re-open that case!



Monday 08/20/2001 5:10:38pm
            Name: Mark
           E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: BD, if they represent the Humane Societies and SPCA how the hell does that make them
                  independent. I rest my case!



Monday 08/20/2001 4:12:44pm
            Name: Meriwether
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: Paula,

                    I was referemce a comment that Cat made. She stated that people don't like the taste of meat.
                    I agree with you and Alyce. A lot of people love and crave the taste of meat, preferably things
                    like beef, venison, elk and moose, maybe some caribou. Other people like birds, like
                    cheicken, turkey, pheasant, douck and goose. (Maybe even a Spotted Owl, LOL). Heck, I
                    even know a gal that tried to be a veggie and decided she couldn't go without a steak, because
                    she craved one.


                    Theodore and friends,

                    What a cry-baby story. If you want to start saving cattle because cattle producers are going


Monday 08/20/2001 2:43:10pm
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments:

                    April 2, 2001
                    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

                    Veterinarians Confirm Humane Societies' Concern About Seal Hunt

                    The Canadian Federation of Humane Societies has been concerned about the inhumane
                    killing of seals in the commercial seal hunt off Canada's east coast for decades. "We are
                    pleased that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans is finally proposing changes to the
                    regulations concerning sealing," stated Bob Van Tongerloo, CFHS Executive Director.
                    "However, the government's proposals don't go nearly far enough to prevent widespread
                    animal suffering."
                  The federal government's proposed amendments to the Marine Mammal Regulations will
                  allow a different standard of conduct for seals that are clubbed than for seals that are shot.
                  Sealers clubbing seals will have to ensure each one is dead before proceeding to another
                  animal, whereas those shooting seals will be allowed to continue to shoot several in
                  succession before going back to make sure they are dead. This routinely leaves seals suffering
                  in various stages of injury for half an hour or more before they are dispatched. Despite
                  substantial videotaped evidence of the lack of sealers' skill in clubbing and shooting the baby
                  seals, the government's proposed changes will not require mandatory training for sealers.


                  The Newfoundland SPCA, PEI Humane Society and the Oromocto and Area SPCA in New
                  Brunswick, all members of CFHS, have joined the national organization's voice in asking
                  Fisheries Minister Herb Dhaliwal to revise his department's proposed amendments to require
                  humane killing of all seals.

                  Just last week, five independent veterinarians, invited by the International Fund for Animal
                  Welfare, observed the seal hunt and released a report of their findings. It was no surprise to
                  CFHS that these veterinarians witnessed substantial animal suffering. Their report concluded
                  that "the hunt is resulting in considerable and unacceptable suffering." The veterinarians
                  included two from the United States, two from the United Kingdom, and Dr. Alan Longair,
                  past chair of the Animal Welfare Committee of the Canadian Veterinary Medical
                  Association. Four of the veterinarians have experience with wildlife and the fifth is a
                  neurological specialist.

                  CFHS hopes this independent veterinary report will convince the Department of Fisheries and
                  Oceans to revise its proposed amendments to the Marine Mammal Regulations. "The level of
                  suffering currently permitted in the seal hunt is an embarrassment to Canada," stated Van
                  Tongerloo. "Defenders of the seal hunt often compare the hunt with the slaughter of food
                  animals, saying it's not a pretty sight. But at least federal and provincial slaughter regulations
                  require that animals be killed instantaneously, ensuring each one is dead before proceeding to
                  another animal. We cannot allow the horrific suffering of thousands of seals to continue year
                  after year."

                  The Canadian Federation of Humane Societies represents more than 100 humane societies

                  Mark:

                  THESE WERE INDEPENDENT VETERINARIANS



Monday 08/20/2001 2:13:48pm
            Name: mark
           E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
         Comments: Shut my pie-hole? LOL, first time I heard that one. Ok, here you go. First of all BD, the
                   documentation you gave me came directly from ARAs and their vets, nothing unbiased there
                   at all. JD, this "revenge for the cod industry" crappola is just that. The animals are not
                   skinned alive, the industry is greatly regulated, and like BD all you know is the propaganda
                   you have read. I have read literature from "both sides" of this debate, and one reads like
                   fiction while the other reads like history. Now you explain to me why there are two totally
                   different "stories" to this thing?
                   How was that ALF Responder, a little better? LOLALF responder: Better. Still no references,
                   but at least you claimed you remember there might be some references maybe somewhere if
                   we look hard enough.



Monday 08/20/2001 3:10:09am
            Name: Theodore Pong
           E-Mail: helthe@angelfire.com
  Homepage URL: http://www.angelfire.com/nm/helthe
         Location: Maine
        Comments: Cruising the internet, I am contacting every individual and group I can find with my request
                    for help with a project of compassion.

                     We need help to save a beautiful Jersey Bull from the slaughter house. His name is Pete, or
                     Petey as his owners call him.

                     Petey's situation is unique. His owners are biodynamic farmers who treat him and several
                     other cattle they own, with extraordinary love and care. However they go a bit further than
                     many biodynamic farms in their desire to not to have to kill off any of their cattle, ever. Petey
                     and the other cows, Rosebud, Juliet, Eliza, Marjory, and Otis the baby bull are treated like
                     family members, and their stalls are kept spotlessly clean daily, and the animals reflect the
                     care with excellent health and contentment.

                     Petey who was acquired in adulthood, was abused as a little calf, but his personality has
                     vastly mellowed under much tender loving care.

                     Dan and Iris, the farm owners, have been under extreme financial pressure for several
                     months, and have been forced to an unhappy decision to sell Petey for meat. Since
                     Biodymically raised cattle command a premium beef price, they can get between $6,000 to
                     $8,000 from Petey. Petey, alive, is costing some $1500 a year for food and care.

                     Dan and Iris, who are both vegetarians, do not want to sacrifice Petey for needed funds. He is
                     like a loved family member. But from extreme necessity they finally, very sadly and
                     reluctantly decided to have him slaughtered before the end of this month, August 2001. The
                     deadline was specified by the butcher, because he would not be free again for several months.


                     I spoke to Dan and Iris this week and said I could help, and they have happily agreed to delay
                     the "execution." They told me that $10,000 would keep Petey safe, healthy, and happy for
                     three more years.
                     I have talked to Petey myself, yes literally. I said to him, "I don't know quite how much you
                     understand of what I am saying, but the spirit overseeing you hears me, and I will see what I
                     can do to keep you safely here to live out your natural healthy life." He reached out his huge
                     nose, which I touched and he nuzzled my hand gently, and was silent. That is a departure
                     from his normal behavior, which is usually to utter a loud wild snorting sound whenever male
                     strangers visit, Dan tells me. Petey looked at me and seemed to understand what I said, and I
                     believe he understands much more than any ordinary farmer, biologist, scientist, or even
                     ardent animal lovers might think he does about what people think and say.


                     Dan and Iris want to keep Petey alive and healthy and loved for the remainder of his natural

                     However the financial necessity is extreme for them at the moment.

                     And so I ask if you know sources who would donate money in any amount to help Petey
                     fulfill his natural function in life, which is much more than becoming cold meat.

                     Checks can be made out to me and mailed to my address, and anyone who would like to
                     personally meet Petey is welcome to contact me.

                     Theodore Pong
                     helthe@angelfire.com
                     http://www.angelfire.com/nm/helthe
                     P. O. Box 54, Columbia Falls ME 04623
                     phone: 207-483-4654



Monday 08/20/2001 1:01:36am
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments:
                    Um, Mark, I believe I gave you documented evidence of this seal slaughter, so I would

                     JD,

                     It might be a good idea to try and organize some type of petition and/or protest against this
                     hideous slaughter. If you need any ideas or suggestions, please contact me at
                     bd116@hotmail.com

                     Good luck to you.



Monday 08/20/2001 0:53:35am
            Name: mark
           E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: JD, you are spouting about something you know nothing about. Paula, your right,
         Comments:
                     Cat, you totally misconstrued what I was saying, I suggest you read it again, and make a
                     second go of it.
                     ALF responder: Either debate with JD using facts, or shut your pie-hole.


Sunday 08/19/2001 7:47:59pm
             Name: J.D.
            E-Mail: JD@hotmail.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location: East Grinstead, Sussex
        Comments: This year 210,000 harp seals were murdered in cold blood on the Arctic ice of

                     I was wondering why more of these far northern sealing factories aren't "monkey-wrenched"
                     by conscientious objectors. I am not suggesting anyone actually do that, of course, just
                     wondering....



Sunday 08/19/2001 7:33:32pm
             Name: Paula
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Mark

                     I agree with you.e.g Excess soya protein and TVP is unhealthy becasue of the excessive
                     amounts of protein that you would consume, although it's lower in fat and saturated fat than
                     meat. What I was saying is that people do eat meat for the taste, and some people excessively
                     because they love the taste of it. Excessive meat consumption is extremely unhealthy




Sunday 08/19/2001 5:59:52pm
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail: alleycats@brinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Hi all,
         Comments:

                      Did someone compare AIDS to CJD both kill and both appear to be the direct result of eating
                      meat. CJD to infected farm animals and AIDS possibly due to "bushmeat" initially in the
                      African Continent. As no doubt we all know monkeys harbour the AIDS virus without
                      showing symptoms. Monkeys are killed and eaten as a food source. Yes diseases can jump
                      species with devastating effect. AIDS is caused via infected blood not necessarily sex. Many
                      haemophiliacs have died from blood transfusions. Intravenous drug users from dirty needles
                      again not necessarily sex. No Mark people in the UK are avoiding meat not because of fear
                      but because of education and yes I would agree with you, our farming standards are cruel
                      crude and based on profit, now the general public are suffering because of it. On 18th March
                      the Countryside Alliance were going to march on London in support of countryside issues
                      this was sabotaged by the hunt and farming fraternity. This never occurred presumably
                      because of castigation in the press and their own humiliation.




Sunday 08/19/2001 2:21:34pm
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Paula, anything done in excess is not healthy.



Sunday 08/19/2001 12:46:09am
             Name: Paula
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Meriwether and Alyce

                      Which one of you said that people don't like the taste of meat?

                      That is the very reason why they are eating it--the taste. Those that eat it excessively are
                      hardly doing so for their health, are they!!


Sunday 08/19/2001 4:41:04am
             Name: Candyce J. Hawk
            E-Mail: cjhawk@owt.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: I was looking through your website particularly to find if ALF has any
                     campaigns or information on IBP in Pasco, WA. I live about 30 minutes
                     from the IBP plant. This cruelty is the single most abominable atrocity
                     that I have ever heard about. What is ALF doing about this? Is there
                     more pressure on the USDA? Please let me know if you have campaigns
                     going or intend to get campaigns going about IBP and other processing
                     plants. Thank you.
Sunday 08/19/2001 0:02:11am
             Name: Steve Newport
            E-Mail: docster56@yahoo.com
   Homepage URL: http://mp3.com/VIPERdaboyzrmaikinno
          Location: Healdton, Oklahoma
        Comments: ALF response: I am not aware of any songs of this band relating to animal rights. Steve?
                     Anybody?



Saturday 08/18/2001 9:33:41pm
              Name: mark
             E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: By the way, just to satisfy your curiosity, the majority of the cases come from the UK. What
                     this translates to me is that the UK has a very low standard in it's beef industry. As for
                     worldwide figures, it comes to less than 1/2 of 1% of the total population. That translates to
                     approximately 1 case per 1,000,000 populous. I'll take my chances, especially since I live in
                     the U.S. where obviously our standards are much higher.



Saturday 08/18/2001 7:05:02pm
              Name: mark
             E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: C'mon Cat, how many people a year get CJD as opposed to how many get aids? In other
                     words, just because you MIGHT get a disease are you going to stop making love? Yep, it is
                     the same thing!
                     If you are going to alter your behavior out of fear it is anyway.



Saturday 08/18/2001 6:31:46pm
              Name: Alyce
             E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Hello Meriwether,

                      As for your comment about that people don't enjoy the taste of meat. What are they eating,
                      Mutton?

                      ***Mutton? No way..YUK I never ate that even when I wasn't vegan. Talk about cute and
                      cudley. I have found that the soy meats are wonderful. Full of flavor and very satisfying. I
                      was a meat and potato kid but now I don't even miss it. And no animal has to pay the price to
                      tickle my taste buds..
                    Meat is not unhealthy. When I was a wrestler in high school, I would eat 2 steaks for supper
                    and nothing else. I was in a growing spell and boy did I. Eat red meat and drink milk is my
                    motto.

                    ***My goodness Meriwether. How many people today are suffering from heart disease
                    because of this very same attitude.

                    Alyce will know what I am talking about (Red, Green or Christmas?).

                    *** Yeah, right about that. My son goes to hatch NM to get them.. Last time he brought home
                    700 lbs. YUM However, I got more heartburn from roast and gravy than I ever have with
                    chilies.


Saturday 08/18/2001 9:31:48am
              Name: The Cat
             E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Hi Meriwether,

                    The problem as I understand it in this country is the greed of farmers and their feeding
                    methods to gain further profit. Herbivours such as cows and sheep were and probably still are
                    being fed offal, swill and fish. Farmers rushed to blame government scientists instead of
                    looking at their own serious errors and the implications both on animals and humans. BSC
                    couldn't possibly jump species said the scientists, who paid them to say it?. However of
                    course the experts were wrong yet again CJD is the direct result of a greedy industry. Farmers
                    and government are viewed with great suspicion and people are dubious about the food they
                    eat and yes you are correct about our veggies and fruit, yet again the cost of cutting corners
                    for greater profits. Also more people are becoming lactose intolerant, mysterious illnesses are
                    being "cured" by a no dairy policy. I guess baby cows should drink cow's milk not people.
                    Would we order a pinta of rats milk from our milkman....doubt it.




Friday 08/17/2001 9:00:03pm
              Name: Meriwether
             E-Mail:
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Cat,

                    I don't live in the UK, so I don't claim to be an expert. But I do know that I have read about
                    the beef industry situtation there and can only speculate. I watch the global beef market
                    closely largely because that is what controls our market.

                    Mad Cow disease is caused by feeding animals (such as cattle, swine can get it too) bone and
                    blood meal of their own species. These, I assume, are the mismanagement practices you have
                    discussed. Why on Earth anyone would do this is beyond me. I will also point out the fact
                    that this has only happened in the dairy sector of the beef breed, mainly Holsteins, the
                    infamous white cow with black spots.
                    I don't know for sure, but again I will speculate, the people that died from Mad Cow probably
                    got it from eating hamburger. Here's why I think this. Because of the genetic makeup of dairy
                    cattle, their meat is tougher than shoe leather. If you swung your arm full speed with a fork,
                    you probably couldn't get it to stick into a steak cut from a Holstein carcass. In the States,
                    most dairy breeds become things like dog food, Campbell's Hamburger Stew, etc. when they
                    are butchered. So my point is that it is a shame that the world is losing beef consumers based
                    on that idea.

                    You know, they have concluded that the "sickness" that the people of the Salem Witch Trials
                    time was cause by erget poisoning which is due to cross pollenation of wheat. People got sick
                    and individuals were slain due to a misunderstanding of what they were eating. Does that
                    mean that all people of the New England area of the US should have quit eating anything
                    made out of grain? NO. I means you should know what the hell you are eating. I do admit
                    that some commercially produced meat is questionable, but who knows what kind of
                    chemicals were prayed all over your veggies.


                    As for your comment about that people don't enjoy the taste of meat. What are they eating,
                    Mutton? I don't even like that, I'm not a big chicken fan either. Sometimes, people let what
                    they heard mentally effect the way they eat. My girlfriend won't eat seafood in Oriental
                    Restaurants because she had some bad shrimp once in one, but she will eat seafood in other
                    settings. She even admits that it is purely mental. I would venture to say that the people who
                    ate meat all their life and miraculously lost taste for it when Mad Cow disease reared it's ugly
                    head have nothing but a weak mind, and that's what causes the weak stomach.


                    It is a known fact that some people are lactose intolerant, some are allergic to eggs,
                    others...meat hurts their stomach, but I claim they are in the minority. Meat is not unhealthy.
                    When I was a wrestler in high school, I would eat 2 steaks for supper and nothing else. I was
                    in a growing spell and boy did I. Eat red meat and drink milk is my motto. I do not eat as
                    much meat as I used to, mostly for economical reasons.

                    I will tell you this. I have never had a piece of meat tear my guts up the way chile peppers do.
                    Alyce will know what I am talking about (Red, Green or Christmas?).



Friday 08/17/2001 6:35:05pm
              Name: The Cat
             E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Hi all,
         Comments:

                      Meriwether I would never feed you beef because eating meat is unhealthy and as I abhor
                      animal abuse, I also abhor human abuse. And you are right your piece was lengthy but as it
                      says it comes down to choice, we can eat meat or not. However in the UK comsumers are
                      viewing meat eating as dangerous not because they don't enjoy the taste but because of
                      negligent farming proceedures. The farming industry has made profit from animal abuse and
                      now wonder why government subsidy is ending. However an interesting outcome, now some
                      of the population of UK are discovering that an alternative diet is both nutritious and
                      satisfying. Message to Sara, yes some of the stuff does look a bit petty but I think we all
                      engage in the banter. Why don't you join in and offer your opinion on issues that you feel
                      strongly about.



Friday 08/17/2001 6:15:18pm
              Name: mark
             E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
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         Comments: No anonymous that never was a question. Of course man can lead a healthy lifestyle eating
                     only vegetables, that was never in question here. The rest of the discussion is not BS, your
                     response was however.



Friday 08/17/2001 3:21:22pm
              Name: Meriwether
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         Comments: BD,

                      Believe what you want....atleast I went to "your side" to get this one. It's long too, but read it
                      right to the end.....and don't feed me that Anatomy & Taxonomy junk, you can feed me beef
                      if you want.

                      ENJOY!!!

                      Introduction
                      There are a number of popular myths about
                      vegetarianism that have no scientific basis in
                      fact. One of these myths is that man is naturally
                      a vegetarian because our bodies resemble plant
                      eaters, not carnivores. In fact we are omnivores,
                      capable of either eating meat or plant foods. The
                      following addresses the unscientific theory of man
                      being only a plant eater.

                      Confusion between Taxonomy and Diet
                      Much of the misinformation on the issue of man's
                      being a natural vegetarian arises from confusion
                      between taxonomic (in biology, the procedure of
                      classifying organisms in established categories)
and dietary characteristics.

Members of the mammalian Order Carnivora may or
may not be exclusive meat eaters. Those which eat
only meat are carnivores. Dietary adaptations are
not limited by a simple dichotomy between
herbivores (strict vegetarians) and carnivores
(strict meat-eaters), but include frugivores
(predominantly fruit), gramnivores (nuts, seeds,
etc.), folivores (leaves), insectivores
(carnivore-insects and small vertebrates), etc.
Is is also important to remember that the relation
between the form (anatomy/physiology) and function
(behavior) is not always one to one. Individual
anatomical structures can serve one or more
functions and similar functions can be served by
several forms.

Omnivorism
The key category in the discussion of human diet
is omnivores, which are defined as generalized
feeders, with neither carnivore nor herbivore
specializations for acquiring or processing food,
and who are capable of consuming and do consume
both animal protein and vegetation. They are
basically *opportunistic* feeders (survive by
eating what is available) with more generalized
anatomical and physiological traits, especially
the dentition (teeth). All the available evidence
indicates that the natural human diet is
omnivorous and would include meat. We are not,
however, required to consume animal protein. We
have a choice.

The Great Apes
There are very few frugivores amongst the mammals
in general, and primates in particular. The only
apes that are predominantly fruit eaters (gibbons
and siamangs) are atypical for apes in many
behavioral and ecological respects and eat
substantial amounts of vegetation. Orangutans are
similar, with no observations in the wild of
eating meat.

Gorillas are more typically vegetarian, with less
emphasis on fruit. Several years ago a very
elegant study was done on the relationship between
body size and diet in primates (and some other
mammal groups). The only primates on the list
with pure diets were the very small species (which
are entirely insectivorous) and the largest (which
specialize in vegetarian diet). However, the
spectrum of dietary preferences reflect the daily
food intake needs of each body size and the
relative availability of food resources in a
tropical forest. Our closest relatives among the
apes are the chimpanzees (i.e., anatomically,
behaviorally, genetically, and evolutionarily),
who frequently kill and eat other mammals (including other primates).

Evidence of Humans as Omnivores
Archeological Record
As far back as it can be
traced, clearly the archeological record
indicates an omnivorous diet for humans that
included meat. Our ancestry is among the
hunter/gatherers from the beginning. Once
domestication of food sources began, it included
both animals and plants.

Cell Types
Relative number and distribution of
cell types, as well as structural specializations,
are more important than overall length of the
intestine to determining a typical diet. Dogs are
typical carnivores, but their intestinal
characteristics have more in common with
omnivores. Wolves eat quite a lot of plant
material.

Fermenting Vats
Nearly all plant eaters have
fermenting vats (enlarged chambers where foods
sits and microbes attack it). Ruminants like
cattle and deer have forward sacs derived from
remodeled esophagus and stomach. Horses, rhinos,
and colobine monkeys have posterior, hindgut sacs.
Humans have no such specializations.

Jaws
Although evidence on the structure and
function of human hands and jaws, behavior, and
evolutionary history also either support an
omnivorous diet or fail to support strict
vegetarianism, the best evidence comes from our
teeth.

The short canines in humans are a functional
consequence of the enlarged cranium and associated
reduction of the size of the jaws. In primates,
canines function as both defense weapons and
visual threat devices. Interestingly, the
primates with the largest canines (gorillas and
gelada baboons) both have basically vegetarian
diets. In archeological sites, broken human
molars are most often confused with broken
premolars and molars of pigs, a classic omnivore.
On the other hand, some herbivores have
well-developed incisors that are often mistaken
for those of human teeth when found in
archeological excavations.

Salivary Glands
These indicate we could be
omnivores. Saliva and urine data vary, depending
on diet, not taxonomic group.

Intestines
Intestinal absorption is a surface
area, not linear problem. Dogs (which are
carnivores) have intestinal specializations more
characteristic of omnivores than carnivores such
as cats. The relative number of crypts and cell
types is a better indication of diet than simple
length. We are intermediate between the two
groups.

Conclusion
Humans are classic examples of omnivores in all
relevant anatomical traits. There is no basis in
anatomy or physiology for the assumption that
humans are pre-adapted to the vegetarian diet.
For that reason, the best arguments in support of
a meat-free diet remain ecological, ethical, and
health concerns.

[Dr. McArdle is a vegetarian and currently
Scientific Advisor to The American
Anti-Vivisection Society. He is an anatomist and a
primatologist.]

APPENDIX: Further Evidence
The following information is taken from The New
York Times, May 15, 1979. According to Dr. Alan
Walker, a Johns Hopkins University anthropologist,
Homo Erectus, the species immediately ancestorial
to our own Homo Sapiens, had evidence of an
omnivorous diet. Every Homo-Erectus tooth found
was that of an omnivore. However, a small sample
of teeth from the human-like species during a 12
million year period leading up to the Homo-Erectus
period, indicates the earlier species may have
been a fruit eater. Even if this species, way
before our own, lived on a fruit diet, they
probably would not have consumed what we consider
typical fruits. Hundreds of plants produce fruits
                     that are tougher, more substantial foods than what
                     we eat today.

                     Quoted from an editorial by William Clifford Roberts, M.d., Editor-in-Chief of the American
                     Journal of Cardiology:

                     "When we kill animals to
                     eat them, they end up killing us because their
                     flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated
                     fat, was never intended for human beings, who are
                     natural herbivores."


                     Quoted from "WHAT DID OUR ANCESTORS EAT?" in
                     Nutrition Reviews, by Stanley Garn, Professor of
                     Nutrition and Anthropology, and William Leonard,
                     Assistant Professor of Human Biology:


                     "These
                     people of Upper Pleistocene, and later those of
                     the mesolithic, were our immediate ancestors, no
                     longer hunters exclusively and with whole-grain
                     products and a variable amount of roots, fruits,
                     leafy vegetables and nuts in their diet. We must
                     grant them a mixed diet, with animal fat providing
                     a smaller proportion of their food energy than was
                     probably true for the Neanderthals."


                     This article was originally published in the May/June 1991 edition of the Vegetarian Journal
                     published by:

                     The Vegetarian Resource Group
                     P.O. Box 1463, Dept. IN
                     Baltimore, MD 21203
                     (410) 366-VEGE


Friday 08/17/2001 2:24:29pm
              Name: Sara
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         Comments: there is a repeating pattern in this guestbook--somebody says the sky is blue, and somebody
                     else argues NO, look at the clouds, and everyone argues that it is okay to argue because
                     somebody else started it. Do your mothers' know you behave this way?




Friday 08/17/2001 2:14:47pm
           Name:
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       Comments: Fools! The only question is "can man be healthy without meat" and the answer is yes. Other
                  discussion is bullshit



Friday 08/17/2001 2:11:13pm
              Name: mark
             E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
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         Comments: Yes BD, we have heard that before, and the fact that he is a medical doctor doesn't make him
                     an anthropological expert on all species, and thus his article is entirely theory, just as MIRAs
                     "eyes forward and canines" like a predator is simply theory. For every one doctor you find
                     that will support this theory, there are 10 who will support that humans are omnivorous.
                     Meriwethers arguments were logical, and you had nothing else except a pro AR MD to use to
                     back you up. You pull that article like I pull a gun.




Friday 08/17/2001 10:22:23am
              Name: BD
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         Comments: This article (from an M.D.) is absolutely relevant to the discussion, it's called a rebuttal to
                     Meriwether's statement. And unlike your "dinosaur" question, it has everything to do with the
                     AR movement.



Friday 08/17/2001 6:02:53am
              Name: mark
             E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: No BD, not really relevant at all, it is the same old tire theoretical study you pulled with
                     MIRA. It didn't wash then, it doesn't wash now.


Friday 08/17/2001 0:41:58am
              Name: BD
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Comments: people like Cat, Paula and BD would have more of a leg to stand on if "we" (people like
          Mark and I) were herbivores killing animals. I can totally see why you would try to halt our
          lifestyles if we were herbivores, but we are not. I am an omnivore, just like Mark, just like my
          family, just like Yogi and Boo Boo (or any other bear) even my dog is an omnivore and hiw
          mouth is chock-full of flesh tearing teeth used for things like killing gophers, birds, rabbits,
          etc.

            *** For Meriwether:

            Humans are most often described as ―omnivores.‖ This classification is based on the
            ―observation‖ that humans generally eat a wide variety of plant and animal foods. However,
            culture, custom and training are confounding variables when looking at human dietary
            practices. Thus, ―observation‖ is not the best technique to use when trying to identify the
            most ―natural‖ diet for humans. While most humans are clearly ―behavioral‖ omnivores, the
            question still remains as to whether humans are anatomically suited for a diet that includes
            animal as well as plant foods.

            A better and more objective technique is to look at human anatomy and physiology.
            Mammals are anatomically and physiologically adapted to procure and consume particular
            kinds of diets. (It is common practice when examining fossils of extinct mammals to examine
            anatomical features to deduce the animal's probable diet.) Therefore, we can look at
            mammalian carnivores, herbivores (plant-eaters) and omnivores to see which anatomical and
            physiological features are associated with each kind of diet. Then we can look at human
            anatomy and physiology to see in which group we belong.


            Oral Cavity

            Carnivores have a wide mouth opening in relation to their head size. This confers obvious
            advantages in developing the forces used in seizing, killing and dismembering prey. Facial
            musculature is reduced since these muscles would hinder a wide gape, and play no part in the
            animal's preparation of food for swallowing. In all mammalian carnivores, the jaw joint is a
            simple hinge joint lying in the same plane as the teeth. This type of joint is extremely stable
            and acts as the pivot point for the ―lever arms‖ formed by the upper and lower jaws. The
            primary muscle used for operating the jaw in carnivores is the temporalis muscle. This
            muscle is so massive in carnivores that it accounts for most of the bulk of the sides of the
            head (when you pet a dog, you are petting its temporalis muscles). The ―angle‖ of the
            mandible (lower jaw) in carnivores is small. This is because the muscles (masseter and
            pterygoids) that attach there are of minor importance in these animals. The lower jaw of
            carnivores cannot move forward, and has very limited side-to-side motion. When the jaw of a
            carnivore closes, the blade-shaped cheek molars slide past each other to give a slicing motion
            that is very effective for shearing meat off bone.

            The teeth of a carnivore are discretely spaced so as not to trap stringy debris. The incisors are
            short, pointed and prong-like and are used for grasping and shredding. The canines are
            greatly elongated and dagger-like for stabbing, tearing and killing prey. The molars
            (carnassials) are flattened and triangular with jagged edges such that they function like
            serrated-edged blades. Because of the hinge-type joint, when a carnivore closes its jaw, the
            cheek teeth come together in a back-to-front fashion giving a smooth cutting motion like the
            blades on a pair of shears.
The saliva of carnivorous animals does not contain digestive enzymes. When eating, a
mammalian carnivore gorges itself rapidly and does not chew its food. Since proteolytic
(protein-digesting) enzymes cannot be liberated in the mouth due to the danger of
autodigestion (damaging the oral cavity), carnivores do not need to mix their food with
saliva; they simply bite off huge chunks of meat and swallow them whole.


According to evolutionary theory, the anatomical features consistent with an herbivorous diet
represent a more recently derived condition than that of the carnivore. Herbivorous mammals
have well-developed facial musculature, fleshy lips, a relatively small opening into the oral
cavity and a thickened, muscular tongue. The lips aid in the movement of food into the mouth
and, along with the facial (cheek) musculature and tongue, assist in the chewing of food. In
herbivores, the jaw joint has moved to position above the plane of the teeth. Although this
type of joint is less stable than the hinge-type joint of the carnivore, it is much more mobile
and allows the complex jaw motions needed when chewing plant foods. Additionally, this
type of jaw joint allows the upper and lower cheek teeth to come together along the length of
the jaw more or less at once when the mouth is closed in order to form grinding platforms.
(This type of joint is so important to a plant-eating animal, that it is believed to have evolved
at least 15 different times in various plant-eating mammalian species.) The angle of the
mandible has expanded to provide a broad area of attachment for the well-developed
masseter and pterygoid muscles (these are the major muscles of chewing in plant-eating

The dentition of herbivores is quite varied depending on the kind of vegetation a particular
species is adapted to eat. Although these animals differ in the types and numbers of teeth they
posses, the various kinds of teeth when present, share common structural features. The
incisors are broad, flattened and spade-like. Canines may be small as in horses, prominent as
in hippos, pigs and some primates (these are thought to be used for defense) or absent
altogether. The molars, in general, are squared and flattened on top to provide a grinding
surface. The molars cannot vertically slide past one another in a shearing/slicing motion, but
they do horizontally slide across one another to crush and grind. The surface features of the
molars vary depending on the type of plant material the animal eats. The teeth of herbivorous
animals are closely grouped so that the incisors form an efficient cropping/biting mechanism,
and the upper and lower molars form extended platforms for crushing and grinding. The
―walled-in‖ oral cavity has a lot of potential space that is realized during eating.


These animals carefully and methodically chew their food, pushing the food back and forth
into the grinding teeth with the tongue and cheek muscles. This thorough process is necessary
to mechanically disrupt plant cell walls in order to release the digestible intracellular contents
and ensure thorough mixing of this material with their saliva. This is important because the
saliva of plant-eating mammals often contains carbohydrate-digesting enzymes which begin
breaking down food molecules while the food is still in the mouth.


Stomach and Small Intestine
Striking differences between carnivores and herbivores are seen in these organs. Carnivores
have a capacious simple (single-chambered) stomach. The stomach volume of a carnivore
represents 60-70% of the total capacity of the digestive system. Because meat is relatively
easily digested, their small intestines (where absorption of food molecules takes place) are
short&151;about three to five or six times the body length. Since these animals average a kill
only about once a week, a large stomach volume is advantageous because it allows the
animals to quickly gorge themselves when eating, taking in as much meat as possible at one
time which can then be digested later while resting. Additionally, the ability of the carnivore
stomach to secrete hydrochloric acid is exceptional. Carnivores are able to keep their gastric
pH down around 1-2 even with food present. This is necessary to facilitate protein breakdown
and to kill the abundant dangerous bacteria often found in decaying flesh foods.



Because of the relative difficulty with which various kinds of plant foods are broken down
(due to large amounts of indigestible fibers), herbivores have significantly longer and in some
cases, far more elaborate guts than carnivores. Herbivorous animals that consume plants
containing a high proportion of cellulose must ―ferment‖ (digest by bacterial enzyme action)
their food to obtain the nutrient value. They are classified as either ―ruminants‖ (foregut
fermenters) or hindgut fermenters. The ruminants are the plant-eating animals with the
celebrated multiple-chambered stomachs. Herbivorous animals that eat a diet of relatively
soft vegetation do not need a multiple-chambered stomach. They typically have a simple
stomach, and a long small intestine. These animals ferment the difficult-to-digest fibrous
portions of their diets in their hindguts (colons). Many of these herbivores increase the
sophistication and efficiency of their GI tracts by including carbohydrate-digesting enzymes
in their saliva. A multiple-stomach fermentation process in an animal which consumed a diet
of soft, pulpy vegetation would be energetically wasteful. Nutrients and calories would be
consumed by the fermenting bacteria and protozoa before reaching the small intestine for

Colon

The large intestine (colon) of carnivores is simple and very short, as its only purposes are to
absorb salt and water. It is approximately the same diameter as the small intestine and,
consequently, has a limited capacity to function as a reservoir. The colon is short and non-
pouched. The muscle is distributed throughout the wall, giving the colon a smooth cylindrical
appearance. Although a bacterial population is present in the colon of carnivores, its activities
are essentially putrefactive.

In herbivorous animals, the large intestine tends to be a highly specialized organ involved in

What About Omnivores?

One would expect an omnivore to show anatomical features which equip it to eat both animal
and plant foods. According to evolutionary theory, carnivore gut structure is more primitive
than herbivorous adaptations. Thus, an omnivore might be expected to be a carnivore which
shows some gastrointestinal tract adaptations to an herbivorous diet.
This is exactly the situation we find in the Bear, Raccoon and certain members of the Canine
families. (This discussion will be limited to bears because they are, in general, representative
of the anatomical omnivores.) Bears are classified as carnivores but are classic anatomical
omnivores. Although they eat some animal foods, bears are primarily herbivorous with 70-
80% of their diet comprised of plant foods. (The one exception is the Polar bear which lives
in the frozen, vegetation poor arctic and feeds primarily on seal blubber.) Bears cannot digest
fibrous vegetation well, and therefore, are highly selective feeders. Their diet is dominated by
primarily succulent lent herbage, tubers and berries. Many scientists believe the reason bears
hibernate is because their chief food (succulent vegetation) not available in the cold northern
winters. (Interestingly, Polar bears hibernate during the summer months when seals are
unavailable.)


In general, bears exhibit anatomical features consistent with a carnivorous diet. The jaw joint
of bears is in the same plane as the molar teeth. The temporalis muscle is massive, and the
angle of the mandible is small corresponding to the limited role the pterygoid and masseter
muscles play in operating the jaw. The small intestine is short (less than five times body
length) like that of the pure carnivores, and the colon is simple, smooth and short. The most
prominent adaptation to an herbivorous diet in bears (and other ―anatomical‖ omnivores) is
the modification of their dentition. Bears retain the peg-like incisors, large canines and
shearing premolars of a carnivore; but the molars have become squared with rounded cusps
for crushing and grinding. Bears have not, however, adopted the flattened, blunt nails seen in
most herbivores and retain the elongated, pointed claws of a carnivore.


An animal which captures, kills and eats prey must have the physical equipment which makes
predation practical and efficient. Since bears include significant amounts of meat in their diet,
they must retain the anatomical features that permit them to capture and kill prey animals.
Hence, bears have a jaw structure, musculature and dentition which enable them to develop
and apply the forces necessary to kill and dismember prey even though the majority of their
diet is comprised of plant foods. Although an herbivore-style jaw joint (above the plane of
the teeth) is a far more efficient joint for crushing and grinding vegetation and would
potentially allow bears to exploit a wider range of plant foods in their diet, it is a much
weaker joint than the hinge-style carnivore joint. The herbivore-style jaw joint is relatively
easily dislocated and would not hold up well under the stresses of subduing struggling prey
and/or crushing bones (nor would it allow the wide gape carnivores need). In the wild, an
animal with a dislocated jaw would either soon starve to death or be eaten by something else
and would, therefore, be selected against. A given species cannot adopt the weaker but more
mobile and efficient herbivore-style joint until it has committed to an essentially plant-food

What About Me?

The human gastrointestinal tract features the anatomical modifications consistent with an
herbivorous diet. Humans have muscular lips and a small opening into the oral cavity. Many
of the so-called ―muscles of expression‖ are actually the muscles used in chewing. The
muscular and agile tongue essential for eating, has adapted to use in speech and other things.
The mandibular joint is flattened by a cartilaginous plate and is located well above the plane
of the teeth. The temporalis muscle is reduced. The characteristic ―square jaw‖ of adult males
reflects the expanded angular process of the mandible and the enlarged masseter/pterygoid
muscle group. The human mandible can move forward to engage the incisors, and side-to-
side to crush and grind.
Human teeth are also similar to those found in other herbivores with the exception of the
canines (the canines of some of the apes are elongated and are thought to be used for display
and/or defense). Our teeth are rather large and usually abut against one another. The incisors
are flat and spade-like, useful for peeling, snipping and biting relatively soft materials. The
canines are neither serrated nor conical, but are flattened, blunt and small and function Like
incisors. The premolars and molars are squarish, flattened and nodular, and used for crushing,
grinding and pulping noncoarse foods.

Human saliva contains the carbohydrate-digesting enzyme, salivary amylase. This enzyme is
responsible for the majority of starch digestion. The esophagus is narrow and suited to small,
soft balls of thoroughly chewed food. Eating quickly, attempting to swallow a large amount
of food or swallowing fibrous and/or poorly chewed food (meat is the most frequent culprit)
often results in choking in humans.

Man's stomach is single-chambered, but only moderately acidic. (Clinically, a person

The human colon demonstrates the pouched structure peculiar to herbivores. The distensible
large intestine is larger in cross-section than the small intestine, and is relatively long. Man's
colon is responsible for water and electrolyte absorption and vitamin production and
absorption. There is also extensive bacterial fermentation of fibrous plant materials, with the
production and absorption of significant amounts of food energy (volatile short-chain fatty
acids) depending upon the fiber content of the diet. The extent to which the fermentation and
absorption of metabolites takes place in the human colon has only recently begun to be
investigated.

In conclusion, we see that human beings have the gastrointestinal tract structure of a
―committed‖ herbivore. Humankind does not show the mixed structural features one expects
and finds in anatomical omnivores such as bears and raccoons. Thus, from comparing the
gastrointestinal tract of humans to that of carnivores, herbivores and omnivores we must
conclude that humankind's GI tract is designed for a purely plant-food diet.


Summary

Facial Muscles
Carnivore Reduced to allow wide mouth gape
Herbivore Well-developed
Omnivore Reduced
Human Well-developed

Jaw Type
Carnivore Angle not expanded
Herbivore Expanded angle
Omnivore Angle not expanded
Human Expanded angle

Jaw Joint Location
Carnivore On same plane as molar teeth
Herbivore Above the plane of the molars
Omnivore On same plane as molar teeth
Human Above the plane of the molars
Jaw Motion
Carnivore Shearing; minimal side-to-side motion
Herbivore No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
Omnivore Shearing; minimal side-to-side
Human No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back

Major Jaw Muscles
Carnivore Temporalis
Herbivore Masseter and pterygoids
Omnivore Temporalis
Human Masseter and pterygoids

Mouth Opening vs. Head Size
Carnivore Large
Herbivore Small
Omnivore Large
Human Small

Teeth (Incisors)
Carnivore Short and pointed
Herbivore Broad, flattened and spade shaped
Omnivore Short and pointed
Human Broad, flattened and spade shaped

Teeth (Canines)
Carnivore Long, sharp and curved
Herbivore Dull and short or long (for defense), or none
Omnivore Long, sharp and curved
Human Short and blunted

Teeth (Molars)
Carnivore Sharp, jagged and blade shaped
Herbivore Flattened with cusps vs complex surface
Omnivore Sharp blades and/or flattened
Human Flattened with nodular cusps

Chewing
Carnivore None; swallows food whole
Herbivore Extensive chewing necessary
Omnivore Swallows food whole and/or simple crushing
Human Extensive chewing necessary

Saliva
Carnivore No digestive enzymes
Herbivore Carbohydrate digesting enzymes
Omnivore No digestive enzymes
Human Carbohydrate digesting enzymes

Stomach Type
Carnivore Simple
Herbivore Simple or multiple chambers
Omnivore Simple
                  Human Simple

                  Stomach Acidity
                  Carnivore Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
                  Herbivore pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach
                  Omnivore Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
                  Human pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach

                  Stomach Capacity
                  Carnivore 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
                  Herbivore Less than 30% of total volume of digestive tract
                  Omnivore 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
                  Human 21% to 27% of total volume of digestive tract

                  Length of Small Intestine
                  Carnivore 3 to 6 times body length
                  Herbivore 10 to more than 12 times body length
                  Omnivore 4 to 6 times body length
                  Human 10 to 11 times body length

                  Colon
                  Carnivore Simple, short and smooth
                  Herbivore Long, complex; may be sacculated
                  Omnivore Simple, short and smooth
                  Human Long, sacculated

                  Liver
                  Carnivore Can detoxify vitamin A
                  Herbivore Cannot detoxify vitamin A
                  Omnivore Can detoxify vitamin A
                  Human Cannot detoxify vitamin A

                  Kidney
                  Carnivore Extremely concentrated urine
                  Herbivore Moderately concentrated urine
                  Omnivore Extremely concentrated urine
                  Human Moderately concentrated urine

                  Nails
                  Carnivore Sharp claws
                  Herbivore Flattened nails or blunt hooves
                  Omnivore Sharp claws
                  Human Flattened nails

                  ****I apologize for the long post, but I felt it was relevant to the discussion.



Thursday 08/16/2001 10:56:35pm
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
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        Comments: But ALF RESPONDER it is a relevant question simply because Alyce implies that man has
                   interfered. While that may well be true, there is nothing to do to stop that outside of dying
                   ourselves. So who is the first volunteer to die and allow earth to back to it's natural state. Oh
                   by the way, don't you reckon "God" might have had something to do with man being here?
                   Uh oh, better not discuss religion, or self sacrifice, that is taboo isn't it? All jokes aside.
                   Where an animal is does not alter its stress, animals adapt (quite well) to situations, as do
                   most humans. The fact of the matter is that these animals (cows horses, wildlife et.al.) have
                   always lived outside and adapt to weather conditions so Alyce's argument there holds as
                   much water as a bucket full of holes. Umbellical (however you spell it)cords do not fall off.
                   In the wild they are chewed off by the mother (who then eats the placenta)and in the human
                   world they are cut. (Alyce have you never had a baby, or seen an animal have one?) By the
                   way Alyce if you wrote a book with that purpose in mind, then you aren't any better than I
                   am, you are making a dollar from some animals suffering. The difference is, I do it honest
                   Delete this if you choose Responder, but you know I have stated exactly the truth about it all,
                   and if you think about it, you will know what I mean here.ALF responder: It's true that we've
                   beaten the topic of religion to death (both sides repeating themselves) but I must have been
                   absent the day we discussed "self-sacrifice". While dinosaurs may have been relevant to a
                   particular person's comment, they are not relevant to ALF's credo (at least not in any way I
                   yet understand).



Thursday 08/16/2001 9:56:24pm
             Name: Meriwether
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: ALFR,

                     Dinosaur extinction is totally relevant. Yes, scientists can not prove what wiped out the
                     dinosaurs, nor can they prove we are supposed to be herbivores. You and people like Cat,
                     Paula and BD would have more of a leg to stand on if "we" (people like Mark and I) were
                     herbivores killing animals. I can totally see why you would try to halt our lifestyles if we
                     were herbivores, but we are not. I am an omnivore, just like Mark, just like my family, just
                     like Yogi and Boo Boo (or any other bear) even my dog is an omnivore and hiw mouth is
                     chock-full of flesh tearing teeth used for things like killing gophers, birds, rabbits, etc.


                     No one can even accurately speculate why the dinos faded out over many millenia or why



Thursday 08/16/2001 9:42:05pm
             Name: Alyce
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Hello Merewether...

                     As for castrating, branding and freezing, we already went the rounds here. But I'll re-iterate
                     for those in the audience.
        Comments:




                    *castrating*-no more stressful than circumcision or the removal of an umbilical cord of a
                    human baby.

                    ***You explained to me once how this was done. It sounded awful. I would not like that done
                    to me if I were of the opposite sex. Think about it. It's gotta hurt.. And BTW umbilical cords
                    fall off by themselves. At least they used to..

                    *branding*-yes, this can be stressful, but it is not detrimental to the health of the animal,
                    otherwise we wouldn't do it.

                    ***You have no right to cause an animal suffering of any kind. No matter how trivial it may
                    seem to you.

                    *freezing*- you are joking right. these animals have hair and grow long hair in the winter.


                    ***I've seen the pictures. Made me sad..

                    less than the animals during the heat of a New Mexican or Arizonan summer that lasts, what
                    8 months? I've been in NM for a summer, it's a shade more unbearable than a winter in
                    Montana.

                    ***The place of suffering is not the issue. They suffer because they are being exploited by
                    humans..


                    >>>Your dog should not be allowed to torure animals either.
                    Again, I wonder where you are coming from? Depriving an animal or "nature's way". Who's
                    side of the fence are you on?

                    ***Your dog does not need to chase other animals for sport. Buy him a ball.

                    When I complete my MS and write an article that states that ranchers offer a quality lifestyle
                    for cattle and people, will you believe me, or do I have to get a Ph.D. to satisfy you.


                    ***Well, I'm impressed. But no....



Thursday 08/16/2001 8:54:11pm
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Hi all,

                    In my book taking a life is murder regardless of species. I'm sure that without the human race
                    the planet would manage itself quite well. It's only human interference or "management" that
                    causes imbalance and has brought the planet to it's present fragile state.
Thursday 08/16/2001 8:37:28pm
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Actually Jim Kern, it is your type who rapes this planet through production of synthetics
                    (petroleum based, most of them) to replace natural fur. Who would ignore animal populations
                    to the point that they destroy their own environment, and thus make untenable even for
                    humans. No ALF responder, I never said, nor attempted to make the point that it is better to
                    have lived a short life than no life at all (or however you put it), nor would I. I don't believe
                    that to be true. It is not about taking so many because they will replenish themselves, but it is
                    about controlling the populations so that man and wildlife can coincide. While 'you' see
                    individual animals, 'we' see entire populations and healthy ones at that, whereas if it were left
                    up to 'your' methods, we would truely go backwards.

                      Again I would pose the question. Why are dinosaurs extinct if no one hunted them?ALF
                      response: Anyone answering the (irrelevant) question of why dinosaurs are extinct, when no
                      educated scientist knows for certain, will henceforth not be taken any more seriously than
                      anyone who asks the question.



Thursday 08/16/2001 8:27:01pm
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Cat, I won't argue "money" with you except to say that it is also about proper management of
                    wildlife. Nothing wrong with making money while doing it.
                    Murder? Look that word up in the dictionary, it has nothing to do with animals.



Thursday 08/16/2001 7:24:32pm
             Name: Meriwether
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Alyce,

                      >>>I'm back.
                      We missed you.

                      As for castrating, branding and freezing, we already went the rounds here. But I'll re-iterate
                      for those in the audience.

                      *castrating*-no more stressful than circumcision or the removal of an umbilical cord of a
                      human baby.
                   *branding*-yes, this can be stressful, but it is not detrimental to the health of the animal,
                   otherwise we wouldn't do it.

                   *freezing*- you are joking right. these animals have hair and grow long hair in the winter.
                   they were born and raised in outdoors. they came from a climate more miserable than ours
                   and endure less stress than the Bison in Yellowstone, probably endure less than the animals
                   during the heat of a New Mexican or Arizonan summer that lasts, what 8 months? I've been in
                   NM for a summer, it's a shade more unbearable than a winter in Montana.


                   >>>Your dog should not be allowed to torure animals either.
                   Again, I wonder where you are coming from? Depriving an animal or "nature's way". Who's
                   side of the fence are you on?

                   >>>From what I have read
                   When I complete my MS and write an article that states that ranchers offer a quality lifestyle
                   for cattle and people, will you believe me, or do I have to get a Ph.D. to satisfy you.


                   >>>I think your lying...
                   I feel the same about your Prairie Dog Relocation Theory.



Thursday 08/16/2001 7:01:16pm
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Hi all,

                   So Mark it's all to do with making money thanks for your honesty and no I don't think you are
                   "wacko" I think you are probably following in the footsteps of your own sub-culture without
                   question. You have made your choice of lifestyle and to me it's abhorrent and a life of
                   violence, profiting from animals for pleasure (eating meat because it pleases your pallet does
                   not justify murder, neither it is healthy) and financial gain. There are other ways of living
                   perhaps you should try it. You never know it could be your "road to Damascus".




Thursday 08/16/2001 6:07:40pm
             Name: alyce
            E-Mail: alyce@extremezone.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Hi Meriwether,

                   I'm back.

                   I have never tortured an animal.
        Comments:




                    ***Castrating, branding, being left out in the freezin cold is not torture.

                    not taking him in the pickup not letting him chase rabbits or gophers.

                    *** Your dog should not be allowed to torure animals either. You better be careful or Mark
                    will be shooting your dog. Like the little feral cats he shoots cause they have to eat..


                    BD suggested trapping a prairie dog town and relocating it. Ha. That would be torturous!


                    ***Shows what you know Merewether.. From what I have read it has been done quite
                    successfully. Not as torturous as being eaten by your dog...

                    ***Again, I have never tortured and animal, although Alyce seems to think that I tie mice up
                    with dental floss and poke bamboo shoot in their ears.

                    ***Like I said, I think your lying...
                    And I hope your wife takes your floss away from you.ALF response: I am tempted to delete
                    this due to the insult, but, quite frankly, I can't figure out what you meant by the floss removal
                    comment. Oh well. You win. That comment blew over my head. Is it a US joke?



Thursday 08/16/2001 4:10:24pm
             Name: Meriwether
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: National Cattlemen's Beef Association



Thursday 08/16/2001 4:00:53pm
             Name: Meriwether
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Cat,

                    >>>How could anyone justify taking a non-human life by calculated violence, what's in it for
                    the human, some sort of legal adrenalin rush, power, domination, religious or misplaced
                    scientiftic zeal,
                    Do you mean non-human or non-vegetable? There is a difference.
                   See, right there you show how "we" feel "your side" views us. We are not cold hearted
                   killers. And very little about it is violent. If violent at all. If the harvesting of animals were
                   not calculated, it may become violent when the first attempt didn't work. I have never set out
                   with malice and attempted to kill an animal. When I kill a deer, moose antelope, etc., I do my
                   best to make a perfect shot, either to the head or heart, maybe a lung shot. I then waste no
                   meat. What I don't get goes to my dogs, which isn't much. I like keeping the meat to myself.
                   So can I justify it? Maybe not to you, but I can to myself, Mark and people like us. It's called
                   sustanance and survival based upon a renewable resource.


                   >>>have they got a domestic problem.
                   yes, people that try to put an end to "our" lifestyle.

                   >>>What is the justification.
                   Just to make sure you got it, sustanance and survival.

                   >>>I personally don't think this way
                   That's ok, "we" don't think "your" way either.

                   >>>and can't comprehend the bloodlust of some of my own species.
                   So is this a question as to why we like the taste of meat, or why we like to hunt. Or....is it a
                   judgement that we are blood thirsty? I do not kill just to kill.

                   >>>Is there some sort of genetic difference.
                   If there were, I would like that. Then, I would have even more of a leg to stand on when I say
                   that Pro-non-meateaters are wrong. You know, I am not out in left field. I, too, was curious. I
                   looked for Pro-meat sites on the web. No wonder most of "you" think "we" are wackos. I
                   don't even agree with what is said on those sites. The sites I saw were ridiculous, Pro-Arian,
                   Pro-KKK, bullsh!t. Please, I beg you, don't characterize all meat eaters by those sites. Look
                   more towards the National Cattleman's Beef Association (NCBA) and their "BEEF, it's what's
                   for dinner!" campaign.


                   >>>you people who are able to somehow feel comfortable with killing or torturing animals.

                   Yes, we may as Alyce put it, "put their lights out" but, there is no malice intent, no blood
                   thirst or no feeling of domination. I have never tortured an animal. My idea of torture is
                   leaving your dog in the house all day and not letting him run in the field with you, not taking
                   him in the pickup not letting him chase rabbits or gophers. Or locking a bird in a cage and not
                   letting him out, or placing a fish in a bowl and not giving him the chance to find a new
                   territory to live in. BD suggested trapping a prairie dog town and relocating it. Ha. That
                   would be torturous! Again, I have never tortured and animal, although Alyce seems to think
                   that I tie mice up with dental floss and poke bamboo shoot in their ears.




Thursday 08/16/2001 11:04:48am
             Name: Jim Kern
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location: FL
         Comments: Mark thinks its ok to make his living off the environment and other species of animals but
                   qustions animal and environmental defenders trying to save this planet, in their spare time.
                   Who is raping this planet? It is clear who has the better intentions. Go A.L.F.!ALF response:
                   Thanks, Jim. Mark's only argument is that he can always grow more animals to replace the
                   ones he kills, so he is leaving nature the way he found it. He hasn't made the point (but some
                   hunters do) that it is better to have lived a short life and die a painful death, than never to
                   have a lived at all (this assumes the environment supports a given number of each species). If
                   Marl had empathy for the dead animals or their families, we might trust him to put some
                   compassion ahead of his self-interest. Of course, his nature is revealed each time he finds a
                   new way to dismiss animals as sentient beings.




Thursday 08/16/2001 4:40:31am
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Cat it is called making a living. Plain and simple (in my case anyway). During the winter I
                    sell the fur, during the summer I charge a fee to either relocate (when possible) or erradicate
                    nuisance animals. Blood lust has nothing to do with it. What do you do when termites invade
                    your home, let them have it? No of course not, you call an exterminator. What does a farmer
                    do when Coyotes or some other predator is killing livestock, or beaver or muskrats are
                    ruining their water source and/or ponds/lakes? They call me.




Wednesday 08/15/2001 7:29:55pm
            Name: The Cat
           E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Hi all,

                      Good stuff coming through. I welcome serious debate. I would like to ask a question. How
                      could anyone justify taking a non-human life by calculated violence, what's in it for the
                      human, some sort of legal adrenalin rush, power, domination, religious or misplaced
                      scientiftic zeal, have they got a domestic problem. What is the justification. I'm interested in
                      human behaviour and the way people think. I personally don't think this way and can't
                      comprehend the bloodlust of some of my own species. Is there some sort of genetic
                      difference. Talk to me, you people who are able to somehow feel comfortable with killing or
                      torturing animals.


Wednesday 08/15/2001 5:28:36pm
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Responder, when I refer to "your side" or "my side" of the coin, I am referring to the pro
                 hunting/trapping vs the anti hunting/trapping, or rather pro-use/non-use issue. As I have
                 explained many times in the past, the AR movement has failed in one PR move that might
                 actually lend some credibility to "your" movement, and that is restoration of the enviornment,
                 habitat restoration, wildlife feeding programs etc etc. Hope that clears it up for you.


                   ***When you refer to the pro/anti issue, I believe you are referring to folks like me, Vegecat,
                   Alyce, Weebler, etc. I don't believe the ALF, as a whole, has issues with what you described.
                   The ALF seeks to free animals destined for torture and ultimately, death. The ALF, as an
                   "organization," has no AW issues or AR agenda. Their goal is to free animals who are being
                   exploited-TODAY. so, when you refer to "our" side and what we do for the environment and
                   its non-human inhabitants, you are really addressing folks like myself, Alyce, Vegecat,
                   Weebler, Vegemite, etc. Those who are ARA's. Hope that clears it up for you.


                   Cat, your right, no one can blame animals, and I don't think anyone does. However, you must
                   remember that man long ago interfered with the balance of things, and that won't change,
                   regardless of either of our efforts. Sound wildlife management is a must (partly due to human
                   encroachment)and trapping and hunting are two of the only effective tools in that endeavor.


                   ***Perhaps you're not blaming them, but you are making them pay for OUR mistakes. I don't
                   like paying for other's mistakes, and they shouldn't have to either.

                   Fortunately for "my side" science does back us up.

                   ***Not true, but you're correct, it's redundant for us to argue this point...over and over and
                   over again.

                   As for puppy mills, cockfights, etc etc, like you, I am against it, but I will seek to legally put a
                   stop to it.

                   ***Good for you. I wish you and all others the best of luck.

                   Without harming the economics of a region, or harming a person.

                   ***I'm more concerned with the animals than the thickness of "Joe Blows" wallet. I will
                   agree however, that no human or non-human should be physically harmed.

                   To me the end does not justify the means when it comes to bringing about any change,
                   regardless of what many of you think.

                   ***It really doesn't matter what we think, just as it really doesn't matter to ARA's what you
                   think.



Wednesday 08/15/2001 4:11:44pm
            Name: mark
           E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
  Homepage URL:
          Location:
         Comments: Responder, when I refer to "your side" or "my side" of the coin, I am referring to the pro
                    hunting/trapping vs the anti hunting/trapping, or rather pro-use/non-use issue. As I have
                    explained many times in the past, the AR movement has failed in one PR move that might
                    actually lend some credibility to "your" movement, and that is restoration of the enviornment,
                    habitat restoration, wildlife feeding programs etc etc. Hope that clears it up for you.

                     Cat, your right, no one can blame animals, and I don't think anyone does. However, you must
                     remember that man long ago interfered with the balance of things, and that won't change,
                     regardless of either of our efforts. Sound wildlife management is a must (partly due to human
                     encroachment)and trapping and hunting are two of the only effective tools in that endeavor.
                     Moot point, you don't believe it, and I do. Fortunately for "my side" science does back us up.

                     As for puppy mills, cockfights, etc etc, like you, I am against it, but I will seek to legally put a
                     stop to it. Without harming the economics of a region, or harming a person. To me the end
                     does not justify the means when it comes to bringing about any change, regardless of what
                     many of you think.



Wednesday 08/15/2001 3:23:21pm
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments:
                   ADAPTT-Tampa has discovered that animal researcher P. Michael Conn
                   of the Oregon Regional Primate Research Center (ORPRC) is one of three
                   finalist candidates for the position of Vice President for Research at the
                   University of South Florida (USF).

                     Currently, Conn conducts painful, UNSCIENTIFIC and UNETHICAL gland
                     research in marmoset, rhesus and macaque monkeys as ORPRC's
                     associate director and senior scientist.

                     In 2000, an ORPRC employee took undercover footage at the facility
                     and exposed the horrors of animal experimentation. ADAPTT used
                     the footage in its anti vivisection commercials that aired on UPN-TV-
                     Detroit earlier this year. One scene showed a researcher using
                     electricity on the penis of a strapped-down monkey to obtain his
                     sperm for the breeding colony. It is known as electro-ejaculation
                     and remains one of the most horrifying images that I have ever seen.

                     Conn's letter of application to USF states, "I have been responsible for
                     restructuring the animal costing schedule (a major effort in the case of
                     nonhuman primates, involving accounting of a large number of medical
                     and surgical procedures on animals that may live 25 years or more and
                     cost thousands of dollars each; ORPRC has over 2,800 such animals)."
                     Unfortunately, we don't have much time to act. Dr. Conn will be
                     interviewing at USF on August 27-30.
                     The two other finalist candidates are NOT animal researchers. One is
                     a nutritionist while the other studies the forces of magnets.
                    Please mention their names in the letter as people you would support
                    ethically and scientifically.
                    Jack Crow, who currently works at Florida State U., is the magneticscientist.
                    Janet Greger is the nutritionist. It wouldn't be a bad idea to support her
                    more than Crow because of her gender. Our sources say that besides
                    the USF president, there aren't many woman who hold executive positions at USF.

                    If you need detailed information on why vivisection is UNSCIENTIFIC,
                    go to www.adaptt.org and look at our last newsletter. It has a detailed
                    account about the invalidity of animal experimentation.

                    Write P. Michael Conn opposition letters to the individuals listed below.
                    Also, we have compiled an e-mail list for the search committee members
                    that appears after the addresses.

                    President Judy Genshaft
                    University of South Florida, ADM 2414202 East Fowler AvenueTampa, Florida 33620
                    jgensha@admin.usf.eduPhone: 813-974-2791Fax: 813-974-5530Provost S. David Stamps

                    University of South Florida, ADM 2264202 East Fowler AvenueTampa, Florida 33620
                    stamps@chuma1.cas.usf.eduFax: 813-974-5093Dr. Carl P. Carlucci
                    Executive Vice PresidentUniversity of South Florida, ADM 200
                    4202 East Fowler AvenueTampa, Florida 33620carl@admin.usf.eduFax: 813-974-2989
                    Here is the e-mail list of all of the members of the search committee.

                    An easy-to-use CUT and PASTE format follows:"Brown, Charles" ,
                    "Burns, Patricia" ,"Chang, Robert" ,"Dalton, William" ,"Deats, Sara" ,
                    "Friedman, Robert" ,"Goldman,Mark" ,"Hunton, James" ,"Khator, Suresh" ,
                    "Merkler, David" ,"Moore, Janet" ,"Pledger, Warren" ,"Porteiro, Jose" ,
                    "Purcell, Trevor" ,"Shannon, Roger" ,"Tebbens, Sarah" ,"Townsend, Brenda" ,
                    "Wecker, Lynn" Here are ALL the e-mails in an easy-to-use CUT-and-PASTE format:
                    jgensha@admin.usf.edu, stamps@chuma1.cas.usf.edu, carl@admin.usf.edu,
                    hbrown@hsc.usf.edu, pburns@hsc.usf.edu, chang@chuma.cas.usf.edu,
                    dalton@moffitt.usf.edu, sdeats@chuma1.cas.usf.edu, friedman@fmhi.usf.edu,
                    goldman@chuma1.cas.usf.edu, JHunton@coba.usf.edu, khator@ENG.USF.edu,
                    merkler@chuma1.cas.usf.edu, jmoore@chekhov.arts.usf.edu,
                    pledgerw@moffitt.usf.edu, pledgerw@moffitt.usf.edu, porteiro@ENG.USF.edu,
                    porteiro@ENG.USF.edu, purcell@chuma1.cas.usf.edu, rshannon@hsc.usf.edu,
                    tebbens@gandolf.marine.usf.edu, BTownsen@tempest.coedu.usf.edu,
                    lwecker@hsc.usf.eduDirectory assistance for USF is 813-974-2011.

                    Gary Yourofsky
                    ADAPTTwww.adaptt.org810-405-5067DogmaDay@aol.com



Wednesday 08/15/2001 11:13:56am
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Published on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 in the
Comments:
            Los Angeles Times
            Going Backwards
            Report Predicts Thirstier World
            One in three people won't have access to
            sufficient water by 2025, forum
            sponsored by the U.N. concludes. Clashes
            loom, it says.
            by Maggie Farley

            UNITED NATIONS -- "Whiskey's for drinking,
            water's for fighting about," Mark Twain is said
            to have observed, and on Monday, scientists
            warned that more people may be fighting over
            water this century than over oil.

            A report issued Monday at the U.N.-sponsored
            World Water Forum in Stockholm says that
            one in three people will not have access to
            enough water by 2025 and that it is unlikely that
            traditional agriculture could feed the
            world's population by then. Already, bottled drinking
            water costs more per gallon than gas around
            the world, and it is bound to become even
            more precious.

            Water shortages affect about 450 million
            people in 29 countries, and tensions over water
            rights in Asia and Africa could erupt into
            serious clashes if governments don't find new ways
            to use existing supplies more efficiently,
            the report warns. "Water could become the new oil
            as a major source of conflict," Dutch Crown
            Prince Willem-Alexander, chairman of the 2000
            World Water Forum, said after opening the
            Stockholm conference Monday.

            "Increasing scarcity, competition and
            arguments over water in the first quarter of the 21st
            century will dramatically change the way we
            value and use water and the way we mobilize
            and manage water resources," he said.

            From clashes over the use of local watering
            holes to disagreements between countries over
            the right to dam a shared river to
            corporations' desire to privatize distribution, water has
            already become a major source of strife.
            While few wars have been fought over water
            outright, political disagreements are
            intensified when such essential resources become
            scarce.
Californians are familiar with the challenges
of making a city grow from a desert. Just as
Los Angeles had to siphon water from rivers
and watersheds hundreds of miles away as its
population exploded, rapidly expanding cities
in Asia and sub-Saharan Africa are thirsting
for adequate supplies for drinking and
sanitation.

Despite innovations that have lowered costs
of water treatment, more than a billion people
still lack safe drinking water, said Sandra
Postel, director of the Global Water Policy Project
based in Amherst, Mass. "We're running as
fast as we can just to stay in one place," she
said.

Rural, agricultural areas are threatened the
most, the report says. A combination of global
warming, wasteful practices and pollution
means that major rivers that traditionally have
been relied on by millions of people are now
running dry for part of the year. The Yellow
River in China, the Nile in Africa and the
Indus and the Ganges in south Asia don't always
reach the sea during the dry season, leaving
farmers struggling. Agricultural scientists are
trying to find ways to grow more food with
less water to prevent famine in the next 25 years.

"There's not enough water available to
produce enough food. That's the problem," said Peter
Gleick, director of the Pacific Institute for
Studies in Development, Environment and
Security in Oakland.

There is no shortage of answers when
scientists, government leaders and environmentalists
gather at a meeting like the one in
Stockholm--just a lack of consensus.

There are many small things that can be done
that could have broad effects on water use
around the world, Gleick said. Farmers can
choose more water-efficient crops to produce
"more crops per drop." Consumers can rethink
their diets: It takes 16 times as much water
to produce a ton of beef as a ton of grain,
Gleick said.

"There are people who say we're heading for
disaster and those who say we don't have a
                    problem," he said. "It all depends on the
                    choices we make."

                    Copyright 2001 Los
                    Angeles Times



Wednesday 08/15/2001 11:10:02am
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Prohibited Meat Entered U.S., a Report Finds
                   by Elizabeth Becker

                    WASHINGTON, Aug. 13 — At the height of the
                    foot-and-mouth epidemic in Europe, at least
                    three quarters of a million pounds of
                    prohibited meat found its way into inspection
                    warehouses in the United States, the
                    Agriculture Department's inspector general reported.

                    The internal report said the department
                    needed to be more vigilant if it was to continue
                    keeping foot-and- mouth disease from breaking
                    out in this country and infecting American
                    livestock.

                    In limited spot checks last spring,
                    agriculture inspectors found 756,000 pounds of prohibited
                    meat in warehouses in port cities in New
                    Jersey, Maryland, Texas and other states. The
                    meat was not allowed to be distributed, and
                    some of it was destroyed. The report did not
                    indicate whether any of the meat had been
                    contaminated by the disease. But the inspectors
                    said the meat should never have crossed the
                    border.

                    The inspectors found more holes in the system
                    than they had expected. Compounding the
                    problems, in this age of explosive increases
                    in agricultural trade, the agencies that control
                    animal and plant diseases still work without
                    a central computer database, the report said.
                    Many safety officials still record entries by
                    hand into ledgers.

                    In his July 23 report, Roger C. Viadero, the
                    inspector general, said the department needed
                    "more stringent controls to ensure that meat
products entering the United States were free"
of foot-and-mouth disease.

Ann M. Veneman, the secretary of agriculture,
said today that she had accepted the
report's recommendations and was tightening
inspection procedures.

"As soon as the report came out," Ms. Veneman
said in an interview, "we immediately
responded to make sure we're doing everything
we can."

She faulted Congress, however, for refusing
her request for $35 million in emergency aid to
improve the inspection system, including
creating the database.

Without an increase in financing to hire more
staff members and track shipments, many
health experts fear that other diseases
besides foot-and- mouth disease will enter the
country.

"We're relying on the same system of controls
to prevent mad cow disease," said Caroline
Smith DeWaal of the Center for Science in the
Public Interest. "It's clear that with the
increase in outbreaks of animal disease, the
agency needs more money and more staffing
to fulfill their mandate."

Her group filed a petition last week with the
Agriculture Department asking for greater
controls of meat products that could contain
fragments of spinal cords, where mad cow
disease is often found.

In Britain, more than 3.5 million animals
have been slaughtered in an effort to isolate and
eradicate the foot-and-mouth disease. Yet
British farmers continue to report an average of
three new cases of foot-and- mouth disease
every day, a testament to the disease's ability
to spread.

To prevent the disease from entering the
United States and threatening the country's $50
billion meat industry, the Bush
administration banned the import of meat and meat products
from the European Union in March.
Safety and health inspectors were added at
airports and border posts to prevent the
prohibited meat from entering the country and
infecting any of its 170 million cattle, sheep
and pigs. All borders were put on heightened
alert, and Ms. Veneman issued statements
saying that the disease would not spread
here.

So far, there have been no reports of the
disease in the United States.

But the inspector general found near-miss
instances where prohibited meat could have left
the warehouses to be sold in American
markets.

Nearly 260,000 pounds of prohibited meat was
stored in an unsecure area in Elizabeth,
N.J., the report said. In Texas, a shipment
of 32,000 pounds of sausage casings made from
prohibited sheep, beef and hogs was sent from
the Port of Houston to San Antonio without
authorization.

Mr. Viadero said the lack of coordination was
caused by confusion about each agency's
responsibility and the lack of modern
equipment that would allow them to communicate with
each other.

The report strongly recommended pushing ahead
with a planned database to keep track of
imports — the Port Information Network
Operations, which could be in service in 2002.

A sophisticated computer program is required
to control and account for the increasing
volume of trade, the report said. More than
16 million trucks and 5 million large maritime
containers crossed United States borders in
1999.

Since border officials are charged with
stopping the illicit narcotics trade as well as
monitoring compliance with many laws, some
experts who have read the report said luck
must have played a role in keeping out
foot-and-mouth disease.

"It's pretty amazing they've succeeded so
far," said Ken Cook, of the Environmental
                      Working Group. "They're stuck with a
                      human-intensive manual system that dates from the
                      1940's."

                      Copyright 2001 The New York
                      Times Company


Wednesday 08/15/2001 7:29:06am
            Name: The Cat
           E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Hi Mark,

                      This is an issue that affects all of us and sadly I'm not convinced that the planet will survive.
                      We as custodians don't appear to understand how to nourish and nurture. All down to human
                      excesses I guess. Can't blame our animal companions for this one.



Wednesday 08/15/2001 4:59:44am
            Name: Andrew Coley
           E-Mail: AColey@hotmail.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location: Trenton NJ
       Comments: All of this debate is academic. The environment is being destroyed by corporations faster
                   than it can recover. Global warming will finish it. Maybe some deep-sea organisms will
                   survive the earth's demise and the environment will build itself up after a couple of billion
                   years. Unfortunately the sun will have reached the end of its lifetime and burned up the
                   earth.ALF response: ALF only concerns itself with animals trapped in hell, and leaves the
                   future to others. You are right, of course, that the earth can't last longer than the sun.




Tuesday 08/14/2001 11:53:21pm
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Ok Cat, how much have YOU and your side of this issue done to improve the enviornment,
                    or wildlife habitat? You won't answer that of course because my side has out numbered you
                    around 10:1.
                    BD, that is all great theory, written by a PH. D. (once again from your side) with no tangible
                    evidence to back it up. It is purely theory, read the entire study, I did!ALF response: What is
                    your definition of "your side" and "our side"? I ask the question seriously because ALF isn't
                    strictly aligned with any group, so I don't know the dividing line to which you are referring,
                    or what defines it. Therefore I don't understand your question.
Tuesday 08/14/2001 7:06:37pm
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Hi all,

                   Good to read stuff like that, one of my client describes humans as parasites on this planet, we
                   take more than we give because of our ignorance greed and selfish pleasure. I tend to agree
                   although there are humans who give more than they take. Check out Louis McNeice poem
                   "Oh God Why must I be born" spoken by a primate foetus, how true and how tragic.




Tuesday 08/14/2001 4:25:22pm
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments:
                    Environment




                   Healing Our World: Weekly Comment

                   By Jackie Alan Giuliano, Ph.D.

                   Human Arrogance and the Decline of the Earth

                   Lost, yesterday,
                   somewhere between sunrise and sunset,
                   two golden hours,
                   each set with sixty diamond minutes.
                   No reward is offered
                   for they are gone
                   forever.
                   -- Horace Mann

                   Recent scientific studies have made it clearer than ever before that the Earth was once filled
                   with balanced ecosystems, teeming with abundant life in numbers that are almost beyond our
                   comprehension. Historical evidence clearly suggests that the oceans were filled with whales,
                   sea turtles, fish, and other forms of life that seem more like a science fiction fantasy than
                   reality.
This new information clearly suggests that today's fishing and hunting quotas may be nearly
meaningless. Such quotas are based on estimates of how many animals would be present if
not subjected to human pressures of but a few years ago. The historical evidence is now
showing that the actual populations - before human predation began - were exponentially
greater than they are today.

This new research, presented in the journal "Science" in a special July 27, 2001 issue,
confirms what many ecologists and archeologists have suspected for some time - coastal
human settlements have been depleting ocean resources for the last 10,000 years. This
challenges the popular notion that native peoples had a small impact on the environment and
lived in relative harmony with nature.


Giant kelp forest in California's Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary (Photo courtesy
National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA))
The reality is that once humans began hunting, their appetite was insatiable and a pattern of
imbalance started that may culminate in the complete collapse of some ecosystems.

For example, the California coastline was once thick with underwater kelp forests and
teeming with nearshore fishes. Predators like the sea otter, once numbering in the hundreds of
thousands along the California coast, ate sea urchins, whose major diet is kelp. Native
peoples hunted the sea otters in vast numbers and Europeans in the late 1800's hunted them
nearly to extinction. As a result, the urchin populations skyrocketed, decimating the kelp.


This started a destructive pattern that turned much of the California coast into the barren
rocks and sand we see there today. There are fewer than 1,100 California sea otters surviving
today, yet some people actually think that there are too many. Fishermen often falsely blame
them for the decline in abalone numbers when historical records clearly show that human
predation killed off the stocks of that animal.

There were so many sea turtles in the Caribbean that Christopher Columbus worried that his
ship would run aground!

Examining the middens, or kitchen refuse piles, that have been unearthed along the
coastlines, the decline in marine populations can be clearly seen as fishing pressures
increased. Studies of the refuse piles of the Amerindian peoples who first settled the area
around the Caribbean show that they depended heavily on sea turtles for food as long ago as
the seventh century. It is easy to catch the slow moving animals when they come ashore to lay
eggs.

Sea turtle populations that once measured in the tens of millions now are measured in the
thousands.

But with the passage of time, the presence of turtle shells in the middens decreases until they
disappear almost completely. Clearly, the nesting colonies were wiped out. Species after
species were fished out as the early peoples, and later the European settlers, moved from one
food source to another, without any concern for sustaining anything into the future.



Smith Island, Chesapeake Bay, Maryland (Photo by Mary Hollinger courtesy NOAA)
In Chesapeake Bay, clear evidence exists of a once balanced ecosystem that was teeming
with life. Oyster beds were so thick that they posed navigational hazards to passing ships. But
the huge oysters made fine eating and they were soon gone. Their key place in the ecosystem
as water filters was ignored and lost, and the Chesapeake has become murky green and
unhealthy. The oysters once filtered the water so effectively that it was crystal clear.

Without the oysters, the chemical content of the bay changed and became inhospitable to the
once abundant manatees, giant sturgeon, alligators, and whales. Attempts are underway to try
to regrow some of those beds, but they will never reach historic levels.


It is now clearer than ever that every animal and every organism, no matter how small, plays
a vital role in keeping the systems of the Earth healthy and functioning. Removing any
species from the complex web of life disturbs the balance of the entire system, resulting in the
impoverished life zones left today.

The 19 authors of the "Science" article, "Historical Overfishing and the Recent Collapse of
Coastal Ecosystems," examined data on the exploitation of our coastal resources that went
back as far as 125,000 years. This allowed them to challenge the ideas that previously had
been based on a few studies in the 1950s that had lasted only a few years.


Without taking into account the lifespans of the sea creatures and the historical abundance of
life, the assumptions that have been in science textbooks since those early inadequate studies
may be quite wrong. Generations of people have grown up with a poor view of what the
impact of humanity has been on the environment.

The implications of this new data are sweeping and should change the way we view our
interactions with the natural world. For example, quotas that have been established by the
International Whaling Commission for the killing of whales must now be recognized as
meaningless and be completely revised. Japan is given permission to kill 400 whales
annually. They call it "research," but critics say it is just a front for commercialized whaling,
since the meat is sold in Japanese restaurants. Norway also continues to hunt whales.



Blue whales in the Gulf of the Farallones National Marine Sanctuary (Photo by Dan Shapiro
courtesy NOAA)
Historically, whale populations numbered in the millions, a number that was necessary to
insure the health of our oceans. Today, there are a few hundred thousand of these animals left
so to suggest, as Tokyo claims, that it is acceptable to continue to hunt them because there are
so many is ludicrous. Japanese ships recently returned from their summer hunt in the
northwestern Pacific after killing 158 whales.
In the United States, numbers used to determine when it is OK to remove a species from the
endangered list must be considered ridiculously low. For example, in 1994, the U.S. Fish and
Wildlife Service declared the gray whale "recovered" and took the species off the
Endangered Species List, declaring arrogantly in the June 16, 1994 edition of the Federal
Register that the whale "has recovered to near its estimated original population size. Today
there are about 21,000 individuals in the wild.
The estimates used to determine the "original" population numbers are from the 19th century,
just before commercial whaling began. The new information in the "Science" study could
mean that we shouldn't be content to cease protecting a species until it once again numbers in
the millions.

Once again, we are reminded that our perception of the true extent and importance of the web
of life is woefully inadequate. We must erase any notions we have of how many individuals
of a species are enough and try to remember that the Earth is a complex, living organism
where every plant, every animal, every microbe evolved for a reason. The presence of large
numbers of an animal should not be considered license to kill it, but rather an indication that
we might have a chance to restore health to a threatened ecosystem.


Human arrogance and our perception that we are the most important species has once again
been challenged. In fact, we may actually be one of the least important species on the planet.
How rarely we hear about a human actually contributing to the health of an ecosystem rather
than its destruction.

Let's get it straight once and for all, and start teaching our children that the raping and
plundering of the Earth in the name of economic growth has taken us to the brink of disaster
and must stop.

RESOURCES

1. Check out the July 27, 2001 issue of "Science" at
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/vol293/issue5530/. Access to articles online is by
subscription only, but you can access their web links at
http://www.sciencemag.org/feature/data/ecology2001.shtml.

2. Keep track of whaling with the help of Greenpeace at
http://www.greenpeace.org/~oceans/whaling/index.html.

3. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service endangered species program is at
http://endangered.fws.gov/.

4. Learn about the gray whale from the Marine Mammal Center at
http://www.tmmc.org/graywhal.htm.

5. The Sea Shepherd Conservation Society tries to stop whale hunts. See them at
http://www.seashepherd.org/.

6. See many resources on Native Americans and the environment at
http://cnie.org/NAE/index.html.

7. Track sea otter issues with Friends of the Sea Otter at http://www.seaotters.org/.

8. Find out who your Congressional representatives are and e-mail them. Tell them it is time
to stop making policy based solely on the current state of the world. We must consider the
historical content of ecosystems. If you know your Zip code, you can find them at
http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/ziptoit.html.
                      {Jackie Alan Giuliano, Ph.D. is a writer and teacher in Seattle. trying to imagine how Puget
                      Sound must have appeared with whales and seals everywhere you looked. Please send your
                      thoughts, comments, and visions to him at jackie@healingourworld.com and visit his web site
                      at http://www.healingourworld.com}



Tuesday 08/14/2001 6:16:34am
             Name: PHYLLIS CLARK
            E-Mail: RNCERT@AOL.COM
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments:



Tuesday 08/14/2001 6:15:23am
             Name: Mark Donners
            E-Mail: markdonners@dublin.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Congratulations to Animal Rights activists and the A.L.F. - your actions and campaigns are a
                    valuable contribution to the earth's future and you will all be acknowledged by future
                    generations.



Tuesday 08/14/2001 0:04:36am
             Name:
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: I found the mpg dog saves dog on this page (near bottom) very touching. Thanks.
                    Dog Saves Dog



Monday 08/13/2001 11:27:56pm
            Name: vegimite
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: yes its feels so good to rescue animals, and especially when theyve been in a hell like
                   situation. Unfortunately theres still a lot more animals to free and more animal abusers to die
                   a ghastly death, but well get there one day



Monday 08/13/2001 7:09:59pm
            Name: The Cat
           E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: Hi Mark,

                   Thank you for your swift response. Laws of course are passed by humans for humans. It
                   would take a brave politician to embark on opposing hunting when so many people get
                   pleasure from killing an animal Mike Foster tried this in UK and failed it didn't get past the
                   Lords who all of course get their kicks from hunting, no votes for the common MP either and
                   what do a few animals matter. Neither am I suggesting that otters and beavers would make
                   pets, this is a human concept making animals subservient for human pleasure. Perhaps the
                   therapy for humans is just observing these animals in their natural habitat. I have no doubt
                   that doctors and pillars of the community hunt, ever heard of Harold Shipman, he was a
                   doctor in the UK who now resides in prison. He killed many elderly people, he may be a
                   doctor but he is a human being and he is not the only doctor responsible of murder as I'm sure
                   you know. As humans, we all have the capacity to think and make choices, to kill or not to
                   kill. You have made your choice and I have made mine.



Monday 08/13/2001 6:23:58pm
            Name: The Cat
           E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: Hi all,

                   Did you know that according to Society for Companion Animal Studies, for the past twenty
                   years there has been growing evidence of the positive influence of companion animals on the
                   physical and psychological well-being of people. This society was set up in 1979 by a group
                   of professionals to promote interest in human-animal relationships. Maybe this extends to
                   otters and beavers... I have problems with this. Money being made yet again via research
                   budgets when the conclusion is obvious and the concept if specific animals are beneficial to
                   humans then specific animals are welcome. I welcome comments.




Monday 08/13/2001 3:58:26pm
            Name: Meriwether
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: BD,

                   I'm with Mark on this one. I would help you out with a puppy mill as long as it had some
                   legallity to it. Hell, I might even steal the pups. Things like puppy mills are what I view as
                   exploitation.



Sunday 08/12/2001 9:43:15pm
             Name: ALF responder
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
        Location:
       Comments: Excellent Resource site for activists



Sunday 08/12/2001 7:21:42pm
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Hi all,

                      Hunter Harassment laws, obviously passed by humans who enjoy and get pleasure from
                      killing the non-human species. What about the right of other species not to be hunted by
                      humans. We are meant to have dominion of this planet as I understand it not domination.
                      Check out the Ali G program and his conversation with a fox hunter. That's the ethos if it can
                      be called that of hunting.



Sunday 08/12/2001 5:13:44pm
             Name: BD
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments:

                      Mark:

                      Fair enough.


Sunday 08/12/2001 4:43:36pm
             Name: Alyce
            E-Mail: alyce@extremezone.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Hello Mark.. No we're not speechless.
                     Just been busy helpen out some poor misguided folk on another site. Catch ya later.



Sunday 08/12/2001 2:55:28am
             Name: Paula
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Mark

                      You would really rescue chickens?
         Comments:



                      You mean intensively farmed chickens?

                      But the question is, what would you do with them after the rescue was over?



Saturday 08/11/2001 5:43:06pm
              Name: BD
             E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: If a hunter wanted to help me relocate animals from say, a puppy mill, I would certainly
                     accept his help. That doesn't mean come hunting season I wouldn't be out there in the woods
                     trying to "relocate" his prey. And he would know this upfront.



Saturday 08/11/2001 1:17:18pm
              Name: Paula
             E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Also ALF

                      Could you please explain your position on chemical and toxicity testing on animals? You
                      obviously believe that testing on animals to cure human disease is worthless. And I assume
                      you believe that toxicity testing is barbaric. That post below was from me.


                      Thank you.ALF responder: You are correct. But a common mistake is for the public to lump
                      ALF in with other AR groups. ALF members don't necessarily share the same opinions
                      regarding all issues. For example, if somebody ate meat and wore fur, but said they would
                      help us rescue animals from a lab, we won't thumb our noses at that help. It's simple: if you
                      liberate animals from a death sentence, you can consider yourself ALF. Any other belief is
                      icing on the cake. We are not a cult that expects our opinions on everything be adhered to.
                      Most ALF operatives do one mission because the circumstances present itself, then they
                      support us from the sidelines. We still love them. Of course, we support other AR
                      organizations beliefs, just as you do.



Saturday 08/11/2001 1:14:14pm
              Name:
             E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Well Marky

                      When it comes to fighting animal abusers BD and Alyce are certainly not speechless.
         Comments:



                      To the ALF responder:I have been thinking about you alot lately. I want you tell me
                      something. There are 8 of you, in different countries and you don't know each other. How on
                      earth did you all find your way here? Did you discover the site and volunteer yourself? Did
                      the site advertise for an ALF responder?I mean you would have to be very careful if you are
                      really ALF, wouldn't you? ALF responder: Yes. We have to be careful. Some of us met once,
                      and we knew others. The circumstances of our meeting was accidental. All I will say is that it
                      involved London.


Saturday 08/11/2001 8:16:16am
              Name: The Cat
             E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Thanks for that Paula, it's a great site, see also Ray Greek another really good guy, shame that
                     he lives in the States.



Friday 08/10/2001 10:10:02pm
              Name: Paula
             E-Mail:
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Vernon Coleman is a brilliant man and a great doctor.
                     Click here to visit his website:
                     Vernon Coleman



Friday 08/10/2001 9:28:43pm
              Name: The Cat
             E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet .comt
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: The facts speak. Vivisection is fraudulant science, Vernon Coleman, no matter what you
                     think about the man challenged the industry, even said that he would pay 250,000 if someone
                     could come forword and say that human illnesses could be cured by animal models. No one
                     has taken up that challenge. Why is that because no one can. Look at AFMA website. This is
                     a filthy industry making a lot of money for those who have vested interests. This is
                     vivisection.ALF response: Correct. Vivisection is entirely different from testing chemicals on
                     animals.



Friday 08/10/2001 6:30:06pm
              Name: The Cat
             E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
        Comments: There is no such thing as an alternative to animal research. The term alternatives indicate that
                  the establishment "animal model" research has some credibility. It has not. Vivisection exists
                  to protect pharmaceutical companies from litigation should their drugs harm humans. Even
                  these animal abusers will admit that the animal model produces unpredicatable and dangerous
                  results. So why does it contine..money, money money. This industry is fraudulent,the science
                  is @#%$! and kills people. ALF responder: I am someone who works inside the industry you
                  are talking about (a spy, if you prefer). I can assure you that you are correct. Mostly. But our
                  side needs to be careful with our wording if we want to maintain credibility. It is correct to
                  say there is no justification for taking a life to make a drug safer. That's my belief, anyway.
                  And it is also correct to say that a majority of tests are bogus, non-scientific tests and they
                  should be stopped. If we argue these points, we have facts to back us up. If we say "no
                  product improvements arise from animal testing" then our opponents ignore the first two
                  arguments, which are valid and important, and they argue something they can win. Truth:
                  some animal testing has made products safer. You won't win that argument. Just say, "It's not



Friday 08/10/2001 1:08:48am
              Name: BD
             E-Mail:
    Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments:

                    Vegimite! Always a pleasure to see you post. It's been a while and I got worried that
                    something had happened to you. You'll be happy to know I rescued two doves last week.
                    They are safe and being rehabilitated at a wildlife sanctuary now. I'm glad I got to them first,
                    otherwise they may have ended up on someone's dinner table. Don't be a stranger.

                    Peace,
                    BD
Thursday 08/09/2001 11:06:01pm
             Name: vegimite
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: sabotage you are so right in what you say. thankjfully there a few humans , veryfew I may add
                    who do care about the palnet and the animals, and the only hope is more ppl who think the
                    way we do, which can be doen by reducating them.



Thursday 08/09/2001 8:13:11pm
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Hi all,

                      Despite the ramblings of strange people. The facts speak. If it's good enough for Ghandi it's
                      good enough for me.



Thursday 08/09/2001 6:54:04pm
             Name: Meriwether
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: The myth is that PETA pushes the envelope a little in its merciful zeal to fight the
                    mistreatment of animals.Ê The truth is that PETA detests human beings.


                      PETA Should Rename Itself 'The Inhumane Society'


                      By Jeff Jacoby (April 3, 2001)

                      [CAPITALISMMAGAZINE.COM] I could tell it was a parody.

                      Ê"Dear Warden Lappin," began the letter to the director of the federal penitentiary in Terre
                      Haute, Ind., where Timothy McVeigh is being held, "On behalf of People for the Ethical
                      Treatment of Animals (PETA), I am writing to ask that you make Timothy McVeigh's final
                      meals vegetarian ones.... Mr. McVeigh should not be allowed to take even one more life."

                      Ê
                      It *had* to be a spoof.Ê To suggest that murdering a human being in an act of terrorism is on
                      the same moral plane as killing a cow for food is so obtuse and heartless that no feeling
                      person could write such words except in satire.
                      Ê
"In fact," the letter went on, "wiping meat off all inmates' plates could help killers lose their
taste for blood.... Feeding inmates bean burritos rather than baby back ribs might just help
break the cycle of violence.... Nonviolence begins in the kitchen -- in this case, the prison
kitchen."
Ê
Obviously whoever wrote this was trying to make PETA look ridiculous.Ê On the crazy-
Ê
I was half-right.
Ê
Callous and depraved the mindset behind this letter undoubtedly is.Ê But this is no mockery
of PETA; this is PETA itself.Ê The letter was signed by Bruce Friedrich, the director of
PETA's campaign to promote veganism.Ê (Vegans are strict vegetarians who abstain from all
animal-derived foods, including eggs and dairy products.)Ê In its indifference to human
suffering and its premise that the lives of animals are equal in value to the lives of people,
Friedrich's letter reflects the PETA ethic perfectly.
Ê
This is an organization, after all, that thinks nothing of mocking cancer patients to win
publicity for its anti-milk message.Ê PETA billboards went up last summer in Wisconsin --
"America's Dairyland" -- that depicted New York Mayor Giuliani with a milk moustache.Ê
"Got prostate cancer?"Ê it asked.
Ê
In 1999, PETA's co-founder was quick to defend animal-rights terrorists who mailed death
Ê
This misanthropy extends not just to the researchers but to everyone afflicted with the
diseases they are working to heal.Ê Every major medical advance of the last 100 years, from
the polio vaccine to artificial insulin to the pacemaker, has required tests on animals.Ê
Experiments with animals today will make the difference between life and death, or between
crippling disability and health, for countless patients with AIDS, cancer, and brain damage
tomorrow.Ê PETA could not care less.Ê Even if animal tests produced a cure for AIDS, says
Newkirk, "we'd be against it."
Ê
For those stricken with dreaded ailments, PETA has some advice.Ê "Don't get diseases in the
first place, schmo," spokesman Dan Mathews recommended in 1994.Ê A few months later,
he elaborated: "We have a lazy, sick society," People bring diseases on themselves."Ê (In
1999, Mathews told Genre magazine thatÊhe admired Andrew Cunanan, the murderer of
fashion designer Gianni Versace, "because he got Versace to finally stop using furs.")

Ê
The myth is that PETA pushes the envelope a little in its merciful zeal to fight the
mistreatment of animals.Ê The truth is that PETA detests human beings -- described by
Newkirk as "the biggest blight on the face of the planet" -- and regards their pain and grief
with something like indifference.Ê "Six million Jews died in concentration camps," Newkirk
has declared, "but six billion broiler chickens will die this year in slaughterhouses."Ê That
would be grotesque no matter who said it.Ê Coming from an outfit that calls itself
compassionate, it is worse than grotesque. It is evil.
Ê
It should go without saying that we are morally obliged to treat animals decently and to
prevent their suffering whenever possible.Ê There is no excuse for testing chemicals or
medical treatments on animals when a legitimate alternative exists.Ê Sensitive people might
indeed wish to abstain from eating meat or wearing fur.Ê But a line is crossed when "ethical"
treatment of animals leads to shrugging off the sickness and death of people.
                     Ê
                     The prevention of cruelty to animals is an admirable cause, and honorable organizations exist
                     to advance it.Ê Donors and volunteers who wish to help have a wide variety to choose from --
                     among the best-known are the Humane Society of the United States (www.hsus.org) and the
                     American Humane Association (www.AmericanHumane.org).Ê Like PETA, they believe in
                     kindness to animals.Ê Unlike PETA, they believe in "Love thy neighbor" as well.



                     Jeff Jacoby is a writer for the Boston Globe.



Thursday 08/09/2001 6:40:01pm
             Name: The Cat
            E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Hi all,

                     Did you know that the latest scientific data exposes vivisection for what it is a grubby money
                     making industry for grubby greedy humans. I would extend the same sentiments to those who
                     profit financially or for pleasure from the abuse, torture and death of non human species. This
                     includes the meat and milk industry, the fashion industry, the interior design industry, the
                     hunting industry, the racing industry etc. notice the word industry. Easy profits from non-
                     consenting animals.



Thursday 08/09/2001 4:52:48pm
             Name: Jack B.Suconik
            E-Mail: jbsuconik@aol.com
   Homepage URL: http://www.animalsrighttolifewebsite.com
          Location: Elmhurst Illinois
        Comments: I believe that humanities war on animals (in America) will cease when americans can no
                    longer be the owners of animals.


Thursday 08/09/2001 4:06:33pm
             Name: Meriwether,
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Anyway, Hitler was a vegetarian, if you want to use singularities to support your arguments.


                     >>>****No, just a beaver trying to protect his territory. Possibly had some young uns
                     around.
                     Wrong times 2.

                     The ditch was man made in an area that had no lakes, streams or ponds. And how exactly is a
                     culvert "his" territory.
                  Like Mark, I have never seen a 120 lb. female beaver. That would be a case for Guinness.
                  Also, male beaver don't protect their young.

                  >>>he only species on the planet that actually DESTROY our own habitat?
                  We had a nice little grove of Quaking Aspens near a diversion point for a ditch. The @#%$!
                  (no pun intended) beaver laid down all but 3 trees. On the 3rd to last, get this, he was
                  chewing the tree down and it fell the other way and trapped his jaw in the tree. He died there.
                  I guess we all get ours in the end, huh?

                  >>>I loved your cartoon..A picture is worth a thousand words.
                  So did I. If you can't tell, I have a sense of humor.

                  >>>Are all vegetable farmers money hungry and just in it for the money? ...

                  ****It's their livelihood.
                  Just like ranching is our livelihood. What's your point?

                  >>>****live trap and relocate?
                  That would be like loading the whole city of **** ***** on busses and hauling it elsewhere.


                  Paula.....

                  i sent 2 emails, did you not get them? they went somewhere.



Thursday 08/09/2001 11:43:13am
             Name: Paula
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Meriwhatever

                  You never answered my personal emails.

                  I was sooooo sad about that.Oh,I didn't offend you did I?

                  Now come on, you ought to know, being the animal expert that you are, that you will find
                  seeds in the feaces of a human and non-human who have eaten them. The reason for that--the
                  seeds are designed to be undigested and pass through the body.Now work that one out for
                  yourself.

                  BTW, did I compare YOU to a serial killer or rapist? No, I did not. It must be your own



Thursday 08/09/2001 9:20:38am
             Name: SABOTAGE
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
         Comments: Have any of you noticed that humans are
                    the only species on the planet that actually DESTROY our own habitat? Also it seems to me
                    that humans actually deny that we are animals like we are some sort of higher being. What
                    kind of "Higher Being" sits around watching his/her planet being raped and ravaged and turns
                    a blind eye to innocent animals being tortured and killed on a daily basis all in the name of
                    profit?
                    What good is money gonna be when there's no more trees left to chop down in order to make
                    It is time to stand up and fight this injustice!!!Remember,ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER
                    THAN WORDS!!!
                    In Solidarity,
                    Sabotage



Thursday 08/09/2001 6:25:39am
             Name: Loren
            E-Mail: lorenbalhorn@charter.net
   Homepage URL: http://twistedcreation.cjb.net/
          Location: Somewhere, USSA
        Comments: Rock on. Animal liberation is human liberation. Though I'm more into the socialist movement
                    than the animal liberation movement, I stick to my vegetarianism and I think you people rock.
                    Do you have a newsletter or anything I could subscribe to? Please respond.


                      In strength, love, and solidarity,

                      Loren M. Balhorn
                      General Secretary, SPA-YPSL
                      http://www.ypsl.org/spa/



Thursday 08/09/2001 5:33:44am
             Name: Alyce
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: ALF
                    LOL. I loved your cartoon..A picture is worth a thousand words..


Thursday 08/09/2001 2:58:33am
             Name: ALF responder
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Calvin and Hobbs Cartoon



Thursday 08/09/2001 1:51:53am
        Name: BD
       E-Mail:
Homepage URL:
     Location:
    Comments: Ok, so is it time for Philosophy Hour where we can all sit in a circle, hold hands, get all warm
               and fuzzy inside and talk about how we feel?

                  ***knock yourself out, Bud.

                  Many people will agree with me that there is a huge difference between harvesting and
                  murdering. Murder is the haulting of life for the pure satisfaction of the event. Harvesting an
                  animal by killing it, (not murdering) is the taking of the animal to produce food.


                  ****For the pure satisfaction of your palate. Not to mention your wallet. So, you're saying a
                  hired "hit man" murders a victim for the pure satisfaction of the event? Nah, I'd say he does it
                  for the greenbacks.

                  Are all vegetable farmers money hungry and just in it for the money? Nothing but a pure lust
                  for getting the top dollar for a zucchini or jalapeno. I think not. Neither are most meat
                  producers.

                  ****It's their livelihood.

                  I shoot gophers on a regular basis to keep them from overpopulating and devastating my
                  alfalfa crop. Would it be better to just drown them with flood irrigation?

                  ****live trap and relocate?

                  Or is it the best when my dog chases them down and crushes their skull?

                  ****If these animals are so dangerous, why are you allowing your dog to tangle with them?


                  I read the link that the ALFR posted. Notice, none of them had hunting or trapping as a
                  correlation.

                  ****ahem...Timothy McVeigh--avid hunter.

                  All of their acts were evil torturous events. enough to make a guy puke.

                  Mark, have you ever thrown a beaver into a fan? I know I haven't and would have a notion to
                  half-kill a person if I saw them do it.

                  ****Well, finally we agree on something!

                  So Paula, don't give me that sh!t that I have the same mentality as them. Every time you eat a

                  ****When vegetation grows a brain and a central nervous system, come tell me it's abortion.
                      And Alyce, as for your cute cuddly beaver, we had a hired man who was unplugging a culvert
                      pipe under a road that a beaver had plugged with sticks. He was waste deep in the water and a
                      beaver came at him with his mouth open, snapping. Our hired man had a shovel and busted it
                      over his head to knock him out. What was he, the random "Evil Beaver"? He weighed 120
                      lbs. I think he was a Super Blanket.

                      ****No, just a beaver trying to protect his territory. Possibly had some young uns around.




Thursday 08/09/2001 1:25:44am
             Name: Meriwether
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Ok, so is it time for Philosophy Hour where we can all sit in a circle, hold hands, get all warm
                    and fuzzy inside and talk about how we feel?

                      Many people will agree with me that there is a huge difference between harvesting and

                      I shoot gophers on a regular basis to keep them from overpopulating and devastating my
                      alfalfa crop. Would it be better to just drown them with flood irrigation? Or is it the best
                      when my dog chases them down and crushes their skull?

                      I read the link that the ALFR posted. Notice, none of them had hunting or trapping as a
                      correlation. All of their acts were evil torturous events. enough to make a guy puke.

                      Mark, have you ever thrown a beaver into a fan? I know I haven't and would have a notion to
                      half-kill a person if I saw them do it.

                      So Paula, don't give me that sh!t that I have the same mentality as them. Every time you eat a
                      vegetable with seeds, you halt life before it gets a chance. Do I accuse you of abortion? No.


                      And Alyce, as for your cute cuddly beaver, we had a hired man who was unplugging a culvert
                      pipe under a road that a beaver had plugged with sticks. He was waste deep in the water and a
                      beaver came at him with his mouth open, snapping. Our hired man had a shovel and busted it
                      over his head to knock him out. What was he, the random "Evil Beaver"? He weighed 120
                      lbs. I think he was a Super Blanket.



Wednesday 08/08/2001 9:28:08pm
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments:
                   HEADLINE: ROWLAND CAN STOP UNREASONABLE TRAPPING RULES

                      BYLINE: Julie E. Lewin
Comments:



            Julie E. Lewin of Guilford (jlewin@igc.org) is president of Animal Advocacy
            Connecticut and a lobbyist for The Fund for Animals.

            BODY:
            Can you believe that in the year 2001, state Department of Environmental
            Protection Commissioner Arthur J. Rocque Jr. wants our state forests and
            parks overrun with sport trappers using barbaric, archaic leghold and
            body-crushing animal traps?

            The DEP is throttling in the fast lane with its proposed regulation to allow
            the state's 300 licensed sport trappers on public lands for a tiny fee.

            Gov. John G. Rowland can and must stop it.

            Until now, the DEP required trappers to submit sealed bids to win trapping
            rights to individual parcels of land, and the highest bid per parcel won.
            Each winning trapper was allowed up to three assistants. The new proposal
            would require a trapper to pay only $60 per parcel and not limit the number
            of trappers per parcel.

            Why the proposed change? Because humane advocates, frustrated at the DEP's
            unwavering promotion of sport trapping, raised money to outbid trappers so
            they could protect wildlife from the wretched suffering and slow death caused
            by traps.

            Last trapping season, advocates spent $36,000 in this effort, winning annual
            rights to most parcels while benefiting taxpayers through their contribution
            to the state purse.

            It's not that the commissioner or his wildlife biologists claim that sport
            trapping performs any necessary public function. Paul Rego, head of the DEP's
            trapping program, has admitted under oath that the program does not and never
            has controlled wildlife populations, and that legally trapped species are not
            biologically overpopulated.

            Mr. Rego was unaware of the recommendation of the World Health Organization
            and the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention that trapping not
            be used to control rabies because it eliminates a healthy buffer population
            that impedes the spread of the disease.

            Why does the buck stop with Gov. Rowland? He appoints commissioners to lead
            state agencies in effecting his policies, and they serve at his pleasure. A
            few years ago, the DEP proposed a regulation that would have allowed leghold
            traps to be set anywhere on land, rather than only in animals' burrows, thus
            putting non-target species at extreme risk. Many concerned called Gov.
            Rowland to ask that he halt the proposal. Recognizing that it would have
            violated public norms of decency, he did so.

            There are other bases for the governor to put on the brakes:

            The proposal is so vaguely worded that it defies the very purpose and legal
            requirement of a regulation, which is to outline the mechanics of how an
agency will administer and enforce a statute.

Its vagueness precludes informed public comment and review, which are
essential to democracy.

The proposal actually violates the statute, which clearly specifies a
competitive process or lottery to award exclusive trapping rights.

It would be grotesque for the state to allow hundreds of trappers to lay
traplines all over state-owned forests and some parks, making them minefields
for the rest of us -- about 99.9 percent of the population -- when we hike or
walk our dogs.

The agency's public hearing on the proposal took place July 24, a mere three
weeks after the agency sent notices. The legislature was not in session,
legislators were away and many humane advocates were out of state.

After being alerted by my organization, 14 legislators sent an unprecedented
petition to Mr. Rocque urging him to cancel or delay the hearing. He did
neither.

The hearing itself was a disgrace. Not one staff person from the DEP's
Wildlife Division was present to answer questions, the only time this has
been the case in the 15 years I've attended such hearings.

The next step is for the DEP to send the proposal to Attorney General Richard
Blumenthal's office for approval. The last hurdle is the legislature's
Regulations Review Committee, which meets year-round.

Unlike the other legislators, an overwhelming majority of the committee's 13
members (who are appointed by legislative leadership of both political
parties) strongly favors sport trapping.

The DEP clearly intends to accelerate the proposal beyond normal bureaucratic
speed to a vote at the committee's September meeting. This gives little time
for the opposition to organize, allows the committee to act when opposing
legislators are not around to intervene, and provides just enough time for
the DEP to mail applications to trappers and process their responses before
trapping season begins in November.

Another official who could help stop the proposal is a committee member,
state Sen. Donald E. Williams Jr., D-Killingly. Sen. Williams also serves as
Senate chairman of the Environment Committee, which acts on most
animal-related bills, including those submitted by the DEP.

In 1985, then-U.S. Rep. Rowland said on television that leghold traps were
cruel and should be banned. He approved inclusion of his name on our
anti-trapping coalition's letterhead.

Sixteen years later, his commissioner would swing open the gates to
publicly-owned lands to a horde of sport trappers.
                     Gov. Rowland, Connecticut's wildlife is counting on you. Are you the public's
                     governor, or the trappers'?



Wednesday 08/08/2001 9:08:28pm
            Name: Alyce
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Alyce if the truth is known, what you saw wasn't a beaver at all

                     ***Well there ya go making assumptions again. I did see a beaver. Several of them..I believe
                     it was in June.. They were frolicking and playing. Darling little creatures. Fat too. I was at the
                     zoo.. In my new life I don't go to those kinds of places anymore though.


                     By the way, do you use perfumes? Better be careful, unless it is alcohol based, then the base
                     ingredient is likely castor (that comes from the glands of a beaver).

                     ***You should do your research Mark.. The vegan floral based oils are quite nice. I buy
                     things from the health food store that smell very nice. Completely free of animal by-products.


                     BD, the article you posted obviously came from an AR site.

                     ***Where might I ask do the articles you want me to read come from? Certainly no a AR
                     site..

                     Alyce, just because I rescued some birds, and kill others doesn't make me blood thirsty.


                     ***Mark.. If those would have been "tasty" birds that needed help would you have taken
                     them to the refuge? No way..

                     Yep, ALL of my kids hunt, and all of them help me on the trapline.

                     *** I think Paula and Catherine have very clearly articulated what can happen to children that
                     abuse animals..


Wednesday 08/08/2001 8:14:52pm
            Name:
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Rapists, serial killers, child abusers, women batterers, animal abusers, all these
                   people have the same type of problem. It's all the same thing except within the circle
                   they have their preferences.ALF response: related links on this website are here:
                   correlation to crimes
Wednesday 08/08/2001 8:12:25pm
            Name: Paula
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Yes that's right Catherine

                      A joint study by the RSPCA and the FBI showed that many serial killers and rapists started
                      out torturing animals.
                      A few books I have read on serial killers describe some of the things that such evil people did
                      to animals before moving on to people.

                      It's like men who beat up their wives. It's all a power thing. Attack those that can't fight back.
                      Rapists, serial murderers, child molestors, vivisectors--they all have the same type of
                      mentality.



Wednesday 08/08/2001 7:23:13pm
            Name: Catherine Neill
           E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Hi all,

                      Did you know that published police research states that serial killers of adults and children



Wednesday 08/08/2001 6:42:07pm
            Name: mark
           E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Alyce if the truth is known, what you saw wasn't a beaver at all (unless it was a kit sometime
                   By the way, do you use perfumes? Better be careful, unless it is alcohol based, then the base
                   ingredient is likely castor (that comes from the glands of a beaver).
                   BD, the article you posted obviously came from an AR site. While some of what is said there
                   was accurate in 97, very little of it holds true today. For example, the muskrat market is
                   stronger than ever, and weasle and ermine (both the same critter, just different color phases)
                   are indeed trapped for fur. Their value in the raw state is about 2.00.

                      Alyce, just because I rescued some birds, and kill others doesn't make me blood thirsty. I
                      don't eat hawks and owls, but I do eat dove, quail, woodcock, and snipe. Personally, I don't
                      think there is anything more tasty than a good squirrel stew or squirrel and dumplings. Yep,
                      ALL of my kids hunt, and all of them help me on the trapline. Guess what? There will be a
                      hunters education course here in about a month. That is for children, and each one draws
                      anywhere from 30 to 100 students. I will be helping to teach that so that the traditions of
                      hunting and trapping can continue, and through that, in spite of your lack of knowledge we
                      will continue solid, sound, wildlife management, thus promoting stronger populations of
                      those cute cuddly beaver.
Wednesday 08/08/2001 6:39:29pm
            Name: Alyce
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Well i have to say i do agree with some things you do (Like save a whale)

                     ***thank you

                     But the Cockfighting issue is going to far

                     ***Trying to save an animal from being tortured to death is going to far. Why would you say
                     that?

                     you guys should attack the people who race dogs an horses what are you doing about them

                     ***Just because they are not being debated on this board doesn't mean the issue is being
                     ignored by ARA..

                     have you ever saw someone us a whip to make a rooster fight so if we did not use gaffs an
                     knives it would be ok..

                     ***Not in a million years would it be ok.. You have no right to cause an animal suffering and
                     pain. Does it make you feel good to see an animal hurting, suffering? Do you not understand
                     that you are being sadistic.. Do you really get pleasure from seeing something suffer.. How
                     would you like to be the one doing the entertaining as you fought for your life.. Would you
                     like it.

                     I think there is a lot of other things that is worse than cockfighting.

                     ***Please be specific.. What is worse than cockfighting and why? God did not create
                     chickens for you to be entertained by their grusome torture..


Wednesday 08/08/2001 6:03:39pm
            Name: Meriwether
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Alyce,

                     again i disagree with you,
                     >>> I wouldn't wast my time reading about your evil profession...

                     see, i would rather keep my friends close, but my enemies even closer. what's to be lost by
                     reading about trapping, you talk to people on the phone about how you think cattle are
                     slaughtered.
                      second, we do have cattle that die of old age. they are usually the best ones, but i guess you
                      wouldn't believe that either unless you read it in a veggie periodical or saw it with your own
                      eyes.

                      >>>You would eat all those cattle?
                      as for eating the cattle. they make vaccuum packers these days, and no i wouldn't eat them all
                      (or all at once, that would be a lot of Beef, and it would surely be more than "what's for
                      dinner!"), i would keep some to keep reproducing so i would have even more to eat. ever
                      heard the fable of the grasshopper and the ant? while you're like the grasshopper, singing up a
                      storm about what i'm doing, i'll be like the ant and stow away my food.


                      >>>In my other life I would have called you a pig...
                      you can call me Wolf.



Wednesday 08/08/2001 6:00:45pm
            Name: Darren Wheeler
           E-Mail: GatorRu@aol.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Well i have to say i do agree with some things you do (Like save a whale) But the
                   Cockfighting issue is going to far you guys should attack the people who race dogs an horses
                   what are you doing about them have you ever saw someone us a whip to make a rooster fight
                   so if we did not use gaffs an knives it would be ok.. yeah right you guys find something else.
                   .I think there is a lot of other things that is worse than cockfighting.So go get them an leave
                   us alone................... ALF response: When you say "leave us alone" I assume you hope you
                   are contacting someone who has been bothering you. As you stated, there are more efficient
                   uses of our time. We agree. I would guess cockfights need insider help to break them up. If
                   you suspect trouble, look around you. Someone you know can't be trusted. ALFs priorities
                   are not the same as other AR organizations. We rescue animals, usually without confronting
                   humans. I am not aware of any members of ALF liberating roosters from cockfights. It's nice
                   you support saving the whales, but we can't take credit; we would try, but they just look too
                   darn heavy.




Wednesday 08/08/2001 5:05:30pm
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments:

                      True Trapping Reform Won't Come from Vague, Weak Agreements
Comments:



            The trapping compromise reached in 1997 – after two years of haggling between the
            European Commission and negotiators from the Russian Federation and Canada – was a
            bitter disappointment to humanitarians. (see Fall 1998 AWI Quarterly) The European
            Council's acceptance of the deal showed, once again, the smothering impact of the World
            Trade Organization and "free trade" on environmental and humane regulations.


            Whatever their faults, however, the agreements between the European Union and Canada and

            The Side Letter is slightly more specific. It stipulates that use of all jaw-type restraining traps
            for ermine and muskrats will be ended four years after the entry into force of the bilateral
            agreements (ermine and other weasels are almost never deliberately trapped for fur; the
            muskrat market is now virtually dead). The use of "conventional" steel jaw leghold traps will
            end six years after the agreements are implemented.


            In fact, neither the Federal government, nor the International Association of Fish and Wildlife
            Agencies (IAFWA – the powerfully entrenched Washington lobby whose fur resources
            committee negotiated the deal with the EU) has any feasible way of forcing individual states
            to comply with the agreements. The view within the ranks of the state managers – forcibly
            stated at the recent North American Wildlife Conference – is that state compliance is purely
            "voluntary." The Europeans may regard their acceptance of two obliquely worded scraps of
            paper in lieu of a binding agreement as an act of faith; state managers evidently regard it as
            an act of surrender.

            As their long-touted process for achieving " best management practices for trapping
            furbearers" (BMP) gets underway, the states' intentions remain opaque; BMP trap testing so
            far has merely repeated tests – carried out intermittently for two decades – that compare
            victims taken in conventional traps with those trapped with padded traps. Current testing
            seems almost identical to the "nine-state study"carried out by AFWA's fur resources
            committee in 1986-7; it involves the same traps, the same species, and many of the same
            people. The only relatively new design tested is the so called EGG trap, a raccoon trap with
            holding surfaces shielded by an egg-shaped plastic cover to prevent self-mutilation.


            The absurdity of the current research is nowhere more evident than in the case of raccoons.
            The behavior of raccoons caught in leghold traps has been confirmed by dozens of field
            studies; the animals chew – and often amputate – their feet. In one New Jersey study, nine of
            twelve captured raccoons amputated portions of the captured foot; one animal was retained
            only by a digital flexor. In a trapping test carried out in lllinois, 15 of 39 raccoons taken in
            small, double-jawed legholds and 10 of 28 in # l 1/2 padded traps had either chewed off
            portions of the captured foot, suffered compound fractures, or both. Among raccoons trapped
            by Tuller in New York, 50 % of those taken in # 1 1/2 padded traps and 55% of those taken
            in # 1 1/2 standard traps, engaged in self mutilation. The nine state study did not distinguish
            self mutilation; however among raccoons trapped in the Southeast US 40 of 98 taken in
            standard traps and 25 of 75 taken in padded # 1 1/2 traps had damage scores above 125 on
            the Olson/ Nettles scale, which implies severe self mutilation, fractures, or both.
The standard contained in the bilateral agreements, and "endorsed" by the US, stipulates that
80 % of trapped animals must not exhibit injuries and behaviors deemed to be " indicators of
poor welfare. " These include "self directed biting leading to severe injury (self mutilation), "
fracture, amputation and several other injuries often suffered by trapped raccoons.


There is not the slightest possibility that either "conventional" or padded # 1 1/2 steel jaw

Why, if the state authorities intend to conform to the standard, are they testing traps
(including "conventional" legholds) that cannot meet it, and ignoring the one trap that most
obviously can?

US policy on trapping, first within the ISO trap standards process, then in international
negotiations, now in shaping so called "BMPs" has been dominated by a small group of state
managers and professional trappers, whose devotion to the steel jaw leghold trap, hiding
behind phrases such as "indispensable management tool", is nothing short of fanatical. There
is no evidence at all that these dogged, resourceful men have flagged in their determination to
retain this, somehow precious, "tool."


There is evidence, however, that ideologues such as those who have defined state and
national trapping policy are increasingly out of step not only with a great majority of the
general public, but with their professional colleagues. In a paper given at the North American
Wildlife Conference, Professor Robert Muth of the University of Massachusetts presented the
results of a questionnaire sent to 4000 members of our professional wildlife societies ,
including the Society of Conservation Biologists and the Wildlife Society. On the question of
whether it is "appropriate" to use steel jaw leghold traps, the 3200 respondents split: 43%
against, 42% in favor. Among those registering disapproval, 93% listed cruelty as a reason;
88 % listed capture of non-target species.


These results puncture the claim, repeated ad nauseam by defenders of the steel jaw leghold
trap that their views are the views of all "trained wildlife professionals." They also reflect a
growing unease, even among state managers, with their reactionary leadership, and a
recognition galvanized by the results of public referendums in Arizona, Colorado and
Massachusetts – that this is damaging the credibility of state agencies with the public.


Eventually, the reformers may prevail. In the meantime the charade continues, senseless
repeat testing, ad absurdum, of "conventional" leghold traps at federal government expense;
maneuvering and stalling behind a screen of persiflage. The USDA's Division of Wildlife
Services provided $350,000 to carry out this season's BMP testing, apparently with no strings
attached and no questions asked. It should not commit another dime toward trap testing until
it is clear that the research is directed toward genuine reform of trapping and bringing the US
into compliance with the commitments the Europeans – however naively – believe we have
made.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wednesday 08/08/2001 4:25:25pm
            Name: Alyce
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: First of all Alyce, beaver aren't sweet cuddly little things.

                      *** Yes they are. At least the ones I saw were. Size has nothing to do with it. They are
                      adorable...

                      And yes BD I do shoot doves, in fact Season opens on the 1st at noon, and I will be out there
                      just like I am every year.

                      ***You shoot doves and squirals? And teach your childen to do so? You are a very sick
                      person. In one post you bragged about helping a couple of birds,
                      taking them to the rehab center.. And then a few posts over you talk about killing dove and
                      squirral. Your blood thirsty for sure.

                      ***No Alyce, while I am sure the coyote feels some discomfort, and certainly pain upon
                      death, it is not barbaric.

                      ***Yes it is. It is also sadistic..

                      Oh and by the way Alyce, yes there are places you can research trapping

                      ***You've got to be kidding.. I wouldn't wast my time reading about your evil profession...



Wednesday 08/08/2001 3:34:42pm
            Name: Alyce
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Hello Gary,

                      This is intended for he person that posts on the pitmaster under the handle ANTI.

                      ***Hope you mind my butting in...

                      Why do you worry about people killing animals?

                      ***Do you not know or care that the birds that you kill feel pain and fear?
                      Since you don't worry about people killing animals.. We will...

                      If you care so much about life you would focus your attention on the fact that people are
                      killing people, or do you view an animal life as equal to or greater than that of a human?
                      ***Your point is irrevelant..Many ARA are very kind to people. I have spent my entire life
                      teaching ethics and morals to children. Obviously you weren't in class.. tsk tsk


                      Why don't you focus on the biggest problems in the world? When you have solved every
                      other problem in the world then you can crusade for the animals.

                      ***Hey, if we solved every other problem in the world we never get to the animals..Besides
                      there are others doing that and very few in comparison work for animal rights...


                      I mean what about chemical warfare? That could wipe out every living thing on earth.. why
                      not focus on that first? Get your priorities in order.

                      ***I would rather focus on the atrocities that are happening now. In my book people that kill
                      animals for the sake of pleasure are no better than one that would choose to use chemical
                      warfare. Except for the fact that you get some kind of sick pleasure from what you do. If it
                      wasn't for people like you we wouldn't have chemical warfare...


Wednesday 08/08/2001 2:12:20pm
            Name: ALF responder
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: To Gary:
                   The Animal Rights movement doesn't ask for your time. We ask that you don't eat meat, don't
                   buy leather or fur, and, if the words on the box say "NOT TESTED ON ANIMALS", buy
                   that product. That will make a huge difference to both animals and the planet. Thank you.




Wednesday 08/08/2001 2:04:02pm
            Name: Mark
           E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Actually BD, the BMP was started by the European Union and the anti trapping crowd over
                   there. It was part of an anti-fur marketing strategy. It is being conducted by trappers, wildlife
                   biologist, as well as scientist from your side alike, so that just goes to show what you know.
                   By the way, for all intents and purposes the National Trappers Association and the Fur
                   Takers of America are being left out of the decision making process, which is one of the
                   things I don't particularly like about it. By the way, guess who is funding this? You got it,
                   sportsmans dollars.
                   By the way, your right about one thing, the research proving that hunting and trapping is
                   conducted by wildlife biologist, many of which are employed by their respective state DNRs.
                   The data you so conveniently tout is from scientist employed by whom? You got it, your side.
                   The difference is that my sides data has been proven to be the truth in that. Whether you
                   choose to accept it or not is your perogative. However, as stated before, why is it that in those
                   states with regulated trapping and hunting seasons do the populations thrive, where as in
                   those few states where there isn't a trapping season that the populations seem to be on the
                   verge of crashing? Yeah, I have a leg to stand on, and that leg is called fact.




Wednesday 08/08/2001 12:29:26am
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments:

                   First of all Alyce, beaver aren't sweet cuddly little things.

                   ****Maybe to Alyce they are. Regardless, they were born, they have a right to life, period!


                   Some I have caught weigh 100 pounds. And yes BD I do shoot doves, in fact Season opens
                   on the 1st at noon, and I will be out there just like I am every year. But before that, on the
                   18th of August Squirrel season opens locally, and I intend to take my boys and one of my
                   daughters out after them.

                   ***Ya know, Mark, if you want to meet me, all ya gotta do is ask--real nice.

                   Now I don't say that to be inflammatory at all

                   ***That's exactly why you say it and you KNOW it.

                   nor will I argue your points with you, as we have argued that many times before.

                   ***And you didn't have a leg to stand on then, just as you wouldn't this time.

                   I will only say this, that it is a proven scientific fact that hunting and trapping is indeed a part
                   of wildlife management.

                   ***Yep, proven by the "scientist" working for say, Fish & Game? Hmm...no bias there, nope,

                   No Alyce, while I am sure the coyote feels some discomfort, and certainly pain upon death, it
                   is not barbaric.

                   ***Killing is barbaric, no matter how you try to sugarcoat it.

                   As for a "trading post" BD, that was a bit of humor in regards to MWs earlier post.

                   ***Well, better luch next time.
                   Oh and by the way Alyce, yes there are places you can research trapping and you will find
                   that it is not the barbaric practice you have been led to believe. Type BMP into your search
                   engine (or Best Management Practices). While I do not entirely agree with this particular
                   study it is full of information that you might find interesting

                   ***BTW, Alyce, this is a study initiated by trappers themselves, which just proves that even
                   THEY know what they're doing is inhumane. Thanks for pointing that out, Mark.




Wednesday 08/08/2001 12:19:31am
            Name: Paula
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: The below is to you Gary



Wednesday 08/08/2001 12:16:52am
            Name: Paula
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments:
                   Thank you.

                   You have just demonstrated the biggest myth of all,that animal rights campaigners care more
                   about animals than they do humans.

                   There is hardly a person who is GENUINELY committed to the fight angainst vivisecton who
                   has not spoken out against human abuse and human exploitation. Every serious and
                   committed animal rights campaigner I know has devoted some time to or has spoken OUT
                   against human abuse,and that's more than the average person does. And those that have gone
                   down in history for their fight against vivisection have also done so for their stance against
                   human abuse.

                   All suffering is significant. Why do you believe that human suffering is more significant than
                   animal suffering?
                   In many places people have it bad, but animals have it alot worse.

                   All abuse and cruelty is savage and barbaric, and we must campaign against it all. To say 'we

                   People campaign for what motivates them most, what they are more passionate
                   for.Sometimes the groups overlap, such as ethical vegans and enviromental vegans.

                   Your comments are what animal rights campaigners get all the time.

                   There are more animal rights campaigners who campaign for human rights than human rights
                   campaigners who campaign for animal rights.
                     It is not that animal rights campaigners view animal life as higher than human life, it is that
                     we view animal life AS precious as human life.

                     why did you target anti and no-one else?


Wednesday 08/08/2001 12:00:42am
            Name: BD
           E-Mail:
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         Location:
       Comments: This is intended for he person that posts on the pitmaster under the handle ANTI.

                     ****That would be me.

                     Why do you worry about people killing animals?

                     ****Because it's unethical and completely unnecessary.

                     If you care so much about life you would focus your attention on the fact that people are
                     killing people, or do you view an animal life as equal to or greater than that of a human?


                     ****I view animals as equal regarding basic rights. And, BTW, I do help people. I probably
                     contribute more $'s to human causes in one year than you will in your lifetime.


                     Why don't you focus on the biggest problems in the world?

                     ****Why don't you stop trying to dictate what movements I choose to support.

                     When you have solved every other problem in the world then you can crusade for the
                     animals.

                     ****My job isn't to solve the WORLD'S problems. As already stated, I have chose the AR

                     I mean what about chemical warfare?

                     ****Yeah, what about it? If you're so concerned with it, YOU do something about it. Oh, I
                     see, you're too fkin busy going to cockfights to do something about the world's problems.
                     What a shame.

                     That could wipe out every living thing on earth, why not focus on that first?

                     ****Well, it looks like you've got a big hand in wiping out the gamecock species. Oh yeah, I

                     Get your priorities in order. Thank you.

                     ***They are. I suggest you take a good look at yourself before making a comment like that.
                      You're welcome.

                      BD



Wednesday 08/08/2001 9:30:24am
            Name: Gary
           E-Mail: GRho187@aol.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: This is intended for he person that posts on the pitmaster under the handle ANTI.Why do you
                   worry about people killing animals? If you care so much about life you would focus your
                   attention on the fact that people are killing people, or do you view an animal life as equal to
                   or greater than that of a human? Why don't you focus on the biggest problems in the world?
                   When you have solved every other problem in the world then you can crusade for the
                   animals. I mean what about chemical warfare? That could wipe out every living thing on
                   earth, why not focus on that first? Get your priorities in order. Thank you.




Wednesday 08/08/2001 5:18:05am
            Name: mark
           E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: First of all Alyce, beaver aren't sweet cuddly little things. Some I have caught weigh 100
                   pounds. And yes BD I do shoot doves, in fact Season opens on the 1st at noon, and I will be
                   out there just like I am every year. But before that, on the 18th of August Squirrel season
                   opens locally, and I intend to take my boys and one of my daughters out after them.

                      Now I don't say that to be inflammatory at all, nor will I argue your points with you, as we
                      have argued that many times before. I will only say this, that it is a proven scientific fact that
                      hunting and trapping is indeed a part of wildlife management.
                      No Alyce, while I am sure the coyote feels some discomfort, and certainly pain upon death, it
                      is not barbaric. As for a "trading post" BD, that was a bit of humor in regards to MWs earlier
                      post. I am sure if he wants the cat he will contact me by email.
                      Oh and by the way Alyce, yes there are places you can research trapping and you will find
                      that it is not the barbaric practice you have been led to believe. Type BMP into your search
                      engine (or Best Management Practices). While I do not entirely agree with this particular
                      study it is full of information that you might find interesting.



Wednesday 08/08/2001 4:22:03am
            Name: BD
           E-Mail: bd116@hotmail.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments:
         Comments:

                     Alyce, do your research, REAL research so that you can become enlightened and you will
                     find that trapping today is not the barbaric practice you think it is.

                     ***Mark, trapping is the exploitation of another species, it's as simple as that. Why should
                     you benefit from another's life? Explain that to me. Trapping is not a humane practice and it
                     is not needed for "wildlife management." Why don't you worry about your own species
                     overpopulating before stickin' your nose where it doesn't belong.

                     Tell you what Meriwether, I will trade you one each frozen whole, ready for mounting bobcat
                     speciman for some good ribeye!

                     ***Tell ya what, Mark. This ain't no tradin' post, so why don't you take your swaps to email.
                     Nobody here wants to read that sh!t.

                     Now, if you'll excuse me, it's late and I haven't had dinner yet. I'm with ya Alyce, my Boca
                     Burger is getting cold!



Wednesday 08/08/2001 4:00:40am
            Name: Meaghan
           E-Mail: punkiechick144@hotmail.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: umm, u guyz? my friends bands site has a guestbook and we do the same petty fighting on
                   that. were freshmen. in high school. sure, this guestbook is for more important things since
                   lives are involved, but i think that being a veggie/vegan is part of being open minded and
                   ready to accept people. im apposed to trapping and other stuff that mark and meirwether or
                   whomever do, but you should b trying to inform them with facts rather than feeding them
                   your own opinions. (not that im opposed to your opinions, im all for veggie/veganism) once
                   they get informed properly theyll see what horrible crimes theyre committing and hopefully
                   stop. but stop bickering!!! youre acting like children!!!ALF responder: Thanks Meaghan. I've
                   been telling them the same thing.



Wednesday 08/08/2001 3:01:28am
            Name: BD (ANTI)
           E-Mail:
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         Location:
       Comments: Excuse my absence. Haven't been able to read all the posts yet, but I did notice that Alyce
                   thanked Mark for helping some birds? Hmm... did he tell ya about the doves he shoots? He's
                   not helping them out much, is he?



Wednesday 08/08/2001 2:45:00am
            Name: Alyce
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
         Comments: Mark.. Is there some information out there that will help me to know that a coyote stuck in a
                   trap waiting to shot is not barbaric? I don't think so.

                     Is there information out there that will help me to know that drowning a sweet little beaver is
                     not barbaric?
                     I don't think so.

                     Meriwether.. You would eat all those cattle? In my other life I would have called you a
                     pig...but now since I love pigs so much I won't do that.

                     Scuse me while I go pick pansies and eat my boca burger....

                     Mark, I did not answer you very long post. I am glad that you are sometimes kind to animals..
                     I'm thinking of the birds that you helped. However its like eaten a piece of cake and a diet
                     soda.
                     The diet soda doesn't cancel out the cake.

                     Paula, I didn't know what "tripen" was. I thought you were misspelling trappin.



Wednesday 08/08/2001 0:48:00am
            Name: Mark
           E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Alyce, do your research, REAL research so that you can become enlightened and you will
                   find that trapping today is not the barbaric practice you think it is.
                   Tell you what Meriwether, I will trade you one each frozen whole, ready for mounting bobcat
                   speciman for some good ribeye!



Wednesday 08/08/2001 0:43:36am
            Name: Paula
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Meriwether

                     By the sounds of things, you're still smoking pot!!!



Wednesday 08/08/2001 0:10:41am
            Name: Meriwether
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
       Comments: Alyce,

                     >>>
         Comments:



                      ** ALL ranchers are in it "for the money." Perhaps some of them just want to be macho
                      cowboys. What would you do with your cattle if they suddenly became worthless? Duh!

                      Duh, I would eat them. did you forget that I eat meat. Maybe I would send some to Mark as a
                      trade for some hides.


Tuesday 08/07/2001 11:49:16pm
             Name: Alyce
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Mark, You are the ignorant one! You are the one out in left field. How much research does
                    one have to do in order to
                    know that trapping is a barbaric practice that hopefully one day will be outlawed. M&M your
                    both make of the same stuff and I hope you fall off the face of the planet..



Tuesday 08/07/2001 11:38:48pm
             Name: Alyce
            E-Mail: alyce@extremezone.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments:
                    I'm not guessing. I've raised cattle my whole life and can tell when they are stressed out. You
                    know, we hauled a bull to NC one time and he would lay down in the trailer and sleep. They
                    are stressed when you can't get them to drink water or eat. Or if they bawl.


                      ***I don't think hauling 1 bull is a fair comparison to hauling a full load. How do you give a
                      full load of cattle a drink of water? How do you feed them? Do you unload them or do you
                      just throw some hay in on the pOOp? And the trucks I've seen that have cattle in them there is
                      no room for them to lie down.

                      I doubt the rancher (s) had a choice. Some blizzards are so bad that all you cando is stay in
                      the house and hope everything is alright.

                      Hey, that' my point.. The cattle should not be there in the first place. They're just left out there
                      to freeze while Mr. Rancher hunkers down in his house.. I would desire him to freeze with his
                      cattle..I've seen pictures of cattle as they freeze in a blizzard..I feel nothing but discust for a
                      person that would subject an animal to such cruelty..

                      If it is a nice day, I feed them in the open, where they can graze. If the weather sucks, we feed
                      them near a shelter belt of trees, or bring them into the corral. We've had nights where there
                      were as many as 100 head in the barn and as few as 1.

                      ***If you insist on having cattle then you should have enough barn space for all of them? Do
                      you? Montana is pretty cold country.. I can hardly imagine a "nice day". How can putting
                      cattle under a clump of trees keep them warm?
                      slipping on ice.

                      ***Why would you let a pregnant cow walk on ice??

                      I've shot my own dogs.

                      ***Big "man" shoots dogs..If you live on a ranch how can your dogs bother the neighbors?? I
                      certainly wouldn't shoot a dog for biting a kid. I'd keep the kid away from my dog..


                      So have my cattle. The last part of that is purely an assumption, you have never seen my
                      cattle. I told you about broken mouth. THEY HAVE NO TEETH.

                      *** Your cattle die of old age? HA
                      Perhaps better veterinary care, and diet would allow the cattle to keep their teeth.

                      There are a few out there that are crude and are in it for "just the money"

                      ** ALL ranchers are in it "for the money." Perhaps some of them just want to be macho
                      cowboys. What would you do with your cattle if they suddenly became worthless? Duh!




Tuesday 08/07/2001 11:32:46pm
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Yep Responder you are right, Paula is trying to fun you a bit.
                    I am with Meriwether on what he says, and Alyce is in left field somewhere (probably
                    picking pansys for the table, or greens to eat). Alyce, why don't you do what you were asked
                    to do, research before you speak, then at least when you speak from ignorance you will know
                    it too (just like the rest of us do)ALF response: This is another post I get to delete because
                    nothing was said. What fun!



Tuesday 08/07/2001 10:57:21pm
             Name: Meriwether (like M. Lewis of L & Clark)
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: I think we know who is doing the wanking.



Tuesday 08/07/2001 10:55:42pm
             Name: Meriwether
            E-Mail: _Meriwether@excite.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
         Comments: just for the record:

                     i have only ever tripped once. i was 8 and smoked pot, after that, no more. i do occasionally
                     drink myself into a stooper with vodka.

                     Meriwether is my first name. As I like some anonymity, you will probably find me nowhere
                     on the web. BD thought I was from Maryland for a second, but was smart enough to figure
                     out that wasn't me.

                     The only reason I like being hard to find is that loose lips sink ships.

                     I do like getting discussion going, it helps me learn more about "you".


Tuesday 08/07/2001 9:58:01pm
             Name: Paula
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Meriwether is cattle wanker and also does some trippin'.

                     Mark is a regular imposter and professional tripper also.

                     Someimes him and meriwhatever get it together and get high on acid.ALF responder to
                     Catherine: This is one type post that gets deleted. Paula is a valuable contributor to this
                     guestbook and she already knows this post is destined to be deep-sixed into cyberspace.
                     Paula is just having fun with me.



Tuesday 08/07/2001 7:56:54pm
             Name: Catherine Neill
            E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Hi Meriwether

                     What sort of dialogue would interest you I have no problem with intelligent debate.ALF
                     response: Meriwether is a cattle rancher and also does some trapping. Mark, another regular
                     poster, is a professional trapper. My function (there are 8 responders) is to delete posts that
                     contain no value, such as accidental double-posts, tangents about alien beings or what is
                     currently happening with Brad Pitt, and posts that contain insults to other posters and nothing
                     much more (these tend to escalate and take up lots of space).




Tuesday 08/07/2001 7:27:09pm
             Name: Meaghan
            E-Mail: punkiechick144@hotmail.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location: Mass, USA
         Comments: i think its great that u guyz r doing this stuff. i hope that when i get older i can do more than
                   just being veggie to help the animals that are dying because of peoples ignorance.




Tuesday 08/07/2001 7:22:36pm
             Name:
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Can I assume that Meriwether is a made up name and is here only to get discussion
                    going.ALF response: Meriwether has provided his email address for those who want to write
                    him directly. But you'll have to ask him for it.



Tuesday 08/07/2001 7:15:49pm
             Name: Catherine Neill
            E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Can I assume that Meriweather has recently been certified as insane and is currently residing
                    in the USA equivalent of Broadmoor. Perhaps a laptop has been provided as therapy. Sad
                    person.ALF response: I guess everyone is entitled to one free insult. After one, they get
                    deleted.


Tuesday 08/07/2001 3:58:11pm
             Name: Meriwether
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Alyce,

                      >>>And since you can't read their minds you really have no way of knowing how much these
                      cattle are stressed out. Your just guessing..
                      I'm not guessing. I've raised cattle my whole life and can tell when they are stressed out. You
                      know, we hauled a bull to NC one time and he would lay down in the trailer and sleep. They
                      are stressed when you can't get them to drink water or eat. Or if they bawl. I haven't had that
                      happen yet. Their genetics are important, I don't want to jeopardize that.

                      >>>***You live in Montana.. I've seen news clips on how ranchers let their cattle freeze to
                      death.
                      That would be about as intelligent as a grocery store owner burning down his store, or a
                      vegetable farmer drowning his crops. I doubt the rancher (s) had a choice. Some blizzards are
                      so bad that all you cando is stay in the house and hope everything is alright.


                      I have known ranchers that have lost cattle to the cold or got buried in a snowdrift while
                      waiting a storm out in a coulee. But you know what, the same thing happened to buffalo
                      before the whites showed up.
                      >>>What do you do with your cattle in the winter?
                      If it is a nice day, I feed them in the open, where they can graze. If the weather sucks, we feed
                      them near a shelter belt of trees, or bring them into the corral. During calving, we will put
                      some in the barns. But, some calve less stressfully in in the open if the weather isn't too bad.
                      We've had nights where there were as many as 100 head in the barn and as few as 1. Depends
                      on the weather. I have never lost one to the weather, only calving difficulty or abortion. Not
                      like human abortion, more like a miscarriage. They will carry the calf for a while and then
                      slink it. Many thinks cause this but the two most prominent are eating loco weed or slipping
                      on ice.

                      >>>***Excuse me but that is exactly what you do.
                      Call it as you see it I guess.

                      >>>I should hope you treat your family better than these poor creatures.
                      I've shot my own dogs. Some raise holy hell with the neighbors all the time. One bit a kid.
                      Depends on the circumstances.

                      >>>***Poor comparison. Your dad by this time has lived his life. He more than likely is
                      dying of natural causes.. Your cattle aren't..
                      So have my cattle. The last part of that is purely an assumption, you have never seen my
                      cattle. I told you about broken mouth. THEY HAVE NO TEETH. How the hell can they eat?
                      That leads to what? I don't think I have to answer that.

                      >>>And how do I know
                      your not lyin about the floss thing.
                      You can take my word for it. Go back and read my post about the kid at college that I gave a
                      "make over" to when he punched his horse.

                      Most of this post has little to do with the fight for or against animal liberation, but it just
                      points out that most of us ranchers are not barbarians. There are a few out there that are crude
                      and are in it for "just the money," but like the radicals on "your" side, they give us a bad
                      name.




Tuesday 08/07/2001 11:16:00am
             Name:
            E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: The previous article sums it all up, that vivisecton is a joke!!!



Monday 08/06/2001 9:39:31pm
            Name: ALF responder
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
 Location:
Comments: This is the Sunday Mirror article:
           SWEETENER SLAUGHTER
           12,800 animals die for no-calorie pills Dogs were killed after 52 weeks of treatment by
           exsanguination
           BEAGLES were among thousands of animals killed in laboratory tests on a new artificial
           sweetener.

            The dogs probably had their throats cut, while marmoset monkeys died from brain damage
            and rabbits were poisoned during a 20-year study into the effects of Sucralose.


            The sweetener - sold in the United States as Splenda - is expected to be on sale in the UK in a
            couple of months.

            Researchers estimate that 12,800 animals died during the research.

            The death toll came to light in articles published in a scientific journal.

            Sucralose - which is 600 times sweeter than sugar - is the first no-calorie sugar-based
            sweetener to be developed.

            It is set to be a money- spinner for British sugar giant Tate & Lyle, who commissioned the
            research.

            But thousands of animals died in a series of gruesome laboratory experiments to test the
            sweetener both here and in the US, anti-vivisection campaigners have revealed.

            In the most shocking tests, 32 beagle dogs were locked in metal cages for 52 weeks at the
            McNeil Speciality Products labs in New Jersey.

            They were given Sucralose mixed in with their normal feed, and blood and urine samples
            were collected.

            At the end of the study they were anaesthetised and had their throats slit open so they bled to
            death.

            They were then cut open and their organs - by now drained of blood so easier to dissect -
            were examined to test the product's toxicity levels.

            A report of the study was published in the journal Food and Chemical Toxicology.

            It read: "Dogs were killed after 52 weeks of treatment by exsanguination (draining of blood)
            while under anaesthesia and examined."

            Thousands of monkeys, rabbits, mice and rats were killed during tests in the UK.

            In one experiment at the controversial Huntingdon Research Centre in Cambridgeshire four
            beagle puppies were starved before being force-fed Sucralose through tubes.

            Researchers took blood samples from the animals' jugular veins and examined their urine and
            faeces to discover the effect of Sucralose on their metabolisms.
It is unclear whether the puppies survived or not.

An unspecified number of marmoset monkeys died or were killed after they were force-fed
Sucralose at the Life Science Research lab in Eye, Suffolk, now part of Huntingdon Life
Sciences.

Twelve male monkeys aged under 10 months were examined and force-fed Sucralose for
seven weeks.

On the seventh day of the study two of the monkeys died from brain defects, a third was
killed after four weeks and the remainder of the brain-damaged animals were put down. In
another British-based experiment, also carried out at Eye, rabbits were given a dose of
Sucralose 1,200 times the expected human daily intake. Many died from trauma.


Others suffered extreme weight loss, convulsions and intestinal disorders.

Tests on pregnant rabbits and thousands of mice and rats were also carried out at Huntingdon.


Experiments, which have not been published, were also carried out at labs at Inveresk, near
Edinburgh, and at Covance at Harrogate, Yorkshire. The British Union For The Abolition Of
Vivisection (email: info@buav.org), estimates tens of thousands of animals have died.


BUAV's director of research Sarah Kite said: "They are particularly nasty. Animals have
been made to suffer and die simply to put out another sweetener which we don't need.


"These appalling tests, which usually involve slitting the animals' throats, are legal, but we
feel they should not be allowed in this country." Sucralose is already on sale in 40 countries
including the US - where it is marketed under licence by Johnson & Johnson - Australia and
Canada. It is sold as tiny sweetener tablets or as a powder for use in soft drinks, ice cream
and jams.

Tate & Lyle has applied to the European Union and the UK's Food Standards Agency for
approval to release Sucralose.

Tate & Lyle divisional managing director Austin Maguire said: "We have done the minimum
number of tests required. Sucralose is unique. Consumers welcome that additional choice." A
spokesman for Huntingdon Life Sciences - bailed out by the Government this year when its
bank became the focus for protests and withdrew their loan - said: "We would only do these
tests if there was no alternative.

"Most were done at Huntingdon some years ago and are not happening now."

A Home Office spokesman said: "Anyone who wants to do safety testing has to show a clear
necessity for using animals to gain a licence."
Monday 08/06/2001 7:53:55pm
            Name: Catherine Neill
           E-Mail: alleycats@btinternet.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: After reading the latest in Sunday Mirror, I am angry and devastated about the human race. I
                    can't understand the human wish to put profit above ethics morals and compassion. ALF
                    response: Welcome to the club! Don't be too disappointed. All species are products of
                    evolution, and for millions of years the gene pools that survived were not the most
                    compassionate, but either the most ruthless, lucky, fast, or had many babies. It's hard to
                    comprehend reversing the results of MILLIONS of years; we are just beginning the process.
                    Only a few thousand years ago it was generally accepted as okay to kill people who were
                    different (or sacrifice members of your people). We've come a long way in a short time.
                    Global compassion for animals may not take long in the earth's timeline.




Monday 08/06/2001 7:51:54pm
            Name: A;yce
           E-Mail: alyce@extremezone.com
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: Hello Meriwether,

                     You suggested that it will be a hot trip. Guess again, even though I bought them in July, I will
                     wait until November to haul them to Montana. It is much cooler then and far less stressful.


                     ***Less stressful but still stressful for the animals. And since you can't read their minds you
                     really have no way of knowing how much these cattle are stressed out. Your just guessing..


                     ***You live in Montana.. I've seen news clips on how ranchers let their cattle freeze to
                     death.. What do you do with your cattle in the winter?

                     What will happen to them in the long run? They are comin' yearlings (just reaching puberty).
                     Hopefully, they will produce a calf every year. I will own them for 8-12 years. Some cows
                     live to be 15-23 years old. A lot depends on how well theire mouth holds up. Some cows die
                     naturally. Some are injured and are either put down or hauled to the ring. Some do not
                     reproduce, so they are eaten by me, my family or someone else if our freezer is full. Some are
                     culled for attitude reasons. Some cows are just loco, they are a threat to other livestock, dogs
                     and humans. We don't just buy 'em, breed 'em and chuck'em. They are part of the family.


                     ***Excuse me but that is exactly what you do. You use them until your done with them and
                     then lights out..
                     Part of the family? I should hope you treat your family better than these poor creatures. Give
                     me a break.

                     And for those in the audience, if my old man is on life support, I would pull the plug on him
                     too.
                  ***Poor comparison. Your dad by this time has lived his life. He more than likely is dying of
                  natural causes.. Your cattle aren't..

                  As for the mouse, there is not much torture in breaking a neck. It's not like I tie him up with
                  dental floss and whip him to death or stick bamboo shoot in his ears. I don't mentally exhaust
                  him asking him why he's in my house either.

                  ***There ya go makin assumptions..tsk tsk.. How do know it doesn't hurt to have your neck
                  broke, squished, choked.. And how do I know your not lyin about the floss thing.



Monday 08/06/2001 3:48:18pm
            Name: Meriwether
           E-Mail:
  Homepage URL:
         Location:
        Comments: Alyce,

                  See, there you go again, making assumptions. That's why I'm glad you asked questions. Some
                  cattle I buy near home, the ride may last three hours, tops. I bought the afor-mentioned cattle
                  in North Carolina. Our ranch is in Montana. It's a 46 hour haul straight through. But now
                  before you blow a fuse, let me tell you this. About every 6-8 hours we give them a chance to
                  drink. We feed them once a day. That's all they need.


                  You suggested that it will be a hot trip. Guess again, even though I bought them in July, I will
                  wait until November to haul them to Montana. It is much cooler then and far less stressful.


                  What will happen to them in the long run? They are comin' yearlings (just reaching puberty).
                  Hopefully, they will produce a calf every year. I will own them for 8-12 years. Some cows
                  live to be 15-23 years old. A lot depends on how well theire mouth holds up. Some cows die
                  naturally. Some are injured and are either put down or hauled to the ring. Some do not
                  reproduce, so they are eaten by me, my family or someone else if our freezer is full. Some are
                  culled for attitude reasons. Some cows are just loco, they are a threat to other livestock, dogs
                  and humans. We don't just buy 'em, breed 'em and chuck'em. They are part of the family.


                  And for those in the audience, if my old man is on life support, I would pull the plug on him
                  too. (Related to cows with a "broken mouth"...ie. no teeth left).

                  As for the mouse, there is not much torture in breaking a neck. It's not like I tie him up with
                  dental floss and whip him to death or stick bamboo shoot in his ears. I don't mentally exhaust
                  him asking him why he's in my house either.

                  I'll get back to the mink issue later.



                  This is to both YOU and ALF:
                       What kind of bullchit is that that you leave that post up there, but you continually wipe mine
                       off, even though mine have been both satiricle and less violent. I never proposed shoot
                       anyone, just give them a make over. No wonder you yahoo's can't ever stand on one foot,
                       "your" so used to cherry pickin that it isn't even funny. Gotcha!!! ALF response: The criteria
                       is simple. Vegecat and others have threatened to harm non-specific animal abusers, not you.
                       You threatened to "make-over" a specific person/poster (no matter how vieled). Previously
                       on this board, when anyone makes a threat directed at another poster, the guestbook fills up
                       with threats and counter-threats. If you find any post with a threat directed at you, let me
                       know, and I'll delete it. I don't count posts that "threaten your philosophy of life."Let me
                       repeat so I'm clear. It is fine to say that IF ANYONE goes near your place you will make
                       them smile by ripping off their lips. But it starts trouble to say IF YOU go near my place,
                       yada yada. This is not a guess on my part, it's an observation from the past as to what starts
                       escalatation of juvenille posts. It that sounds condescending, let me assure you that I beleive
                       you already know the difference and that you are just testing me.



Sunday 08/05/2001 6:00:54pm
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Reading the Bowling Green paper this morning I see where a Television Station near
                     Pikeville Ky sent an undercover reporter/camera into a @#%$! fight. The fight had been
                     published/adverised as a "Derby" in the magazine "The Feathered Warrior" We all know
                     cockfighting in KY is a felony, we also know that using the US Mail to promote a felony is
                     illegal as well.
                     Pacelle wants a full investigation by the Dept of Agriculture (justified of course)and I
                     personally hope he gets it, in that cockfighting in Ky is against the law through the Federal
                     Animal Welfare Act. He also wants the magazine prosecuted through the U.S. Postal Service
                     (which I don't think is justified, as it was advertised as a Derby and not a fight). Personally I
                     don't see the difference, however, the magazine as I understand it is published in a state
                     where it is legal to hold cockfights, so he is probably just "whistling Dixie" on that one.

                       At any rate I thought you guys might find that interesting. The story came in over the AP wire
                       and so you can probably read it in it's entirety by going to one of your larger papers (online)
                       however if you can't find it, you can type DAILY NEWS into your search engine and goto the
                       Bowling Green Newspaper. It is on page 3



Sunday 08/05/2001 5:40:17pm
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
         Comments: Alyce, nothing could be further from the truth. We don't kill just for the fur nor for the sake
                   of killing. Most of the time the whole animal is used for something, whether that be the body
                   parts for biology classes etc, or for commercial use is of little consequence. As far as the
                   trapping industry is concerned nothing goes to waste. But, let us not forget that proper
                   wildlife management is also a large part of it. Perhaps you don't see the birds your cats kill,
                   they do have a habit of carrying them off you know, and seldom eating them. Your right
                   about one thing though, there are many things out there to eat without killing it I suppose, the
                   only thing is, I can't think of a single thing either side eats that doesn't kill something, can
                   you? I choose to eat meat, and you choose not to (I believe we established that much earlier).
                   Personally I don't much care for Tofu, but I do like fried tomatoes, potatoes, etc. But I also
                   like sliced bacon, a good steak, or a hamburger. I am all for animal welfare, but I will not get
                   lost in the emotional debate about what that is. It is well defined by law, and as long as those
                   laws are enforced there shouldn't be any problem. I also know the realities of hunting, fishing
                   One thing for sure is this. Dogs and Cats (per capita) take down as much wildlife as any
                   hunter in any given year. We both know this is due to irresponsible pet owners. Dogs and
                   Cats should remain indoors unless under proper control by their owners and that is the bottom
                   line there. I have squirrels, rabbits, birds and even deer that eat in my yard. I put food out for
                   them in the winter (all but the birds, I put seed out for them all year). My dogs and cats don't
                   bother them because they are properly restrained or indoors. Stray dogs account for a large
                   portion of incidental livestock deaths each year, and when dogs breed with coyotes the
                   problem is worsened in that the "Coydog" does not have the same fear of man as the coyote.
                   Also the Coydog is generally much larger than the coyote. As for the subject of feral cats or
                   anything else feral for that matter. You won't touch one, if you can, and still maintain all your
                   body parts, this animal is simply not feral. The animal has gone wild, and is no longer
                   domesticated. Do I believe all feral animals should be killed? NO, absolutely not. Some feral
                   animals in small numbers are beneficial to some ecosystems, however Feral Cats and Dogs
                   benefit nothing and thus should be removed, either through killing or capture. Some feral
                   As for rehab centers though, since we have drifted to that subject. In my area we have two or
                   three (they deal primarily with wildlife) and through my local wildlife enforcement officer I
                   have turned over birds and other animals to these centers. Last year I personally turned in two
                   hawks and an owl that had been injured by automobiles, and one owl who somehow managed
                   to get caught in a conibear trap I had set for river otter. Still can't figure out how he managed
                   to get in there, but he did. I followed the progress of all four birds, and each was eventually
                   returned to the wild. The one with the LEAST injury was the one caught in a trap. Now if
                   trappers/hunters/fishermen were just cold hearted killers, who kill just for pleasure, would I
                   or any other "user" take the time to do such a thing? I doubt it seriously, yet most of us do it
                   all the time. Previously I have mentioned the fact that we spend a lot of time and money in
                   habitat improvement, and establishment of "natural areas", many of them closed to hunting
                   and/or trapping. Of course we also contribute to the establishment of areas where we can hunt
                   and/or trap. We also advocate the ESA and the TSL, what we don't agree with however is
                   some of the animals put on these lists (particularly the TSL) in that in some areas this is not



Sunday 08/05/2001 2:43:08am
             Name: mark
            E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
          Location:
        Comments: Alyce once again you show how little you know about the animal kingdom. If these were
                     feral cats you wouldn't have "barely touched" the momma. The truth is cats kill for the sake
                     of killing, and that is just the way it is.
Saturday 08/04/2001 11:00:17pm
              Name: Alyce
             E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: nope Alyce and BD, feral cats are one thing, and tame cats are yet another, but both kill for
                     the sake of killing.

                      ***Mark, I have 3 ferral cats in my yard. They are not pets. I have barely touched the mama
                      cat a few times..Also in my back yard I have at least 100 birds visit a day. They are on the
                      ground, in the trees, at the feeders. All over.. In the past year I have found the remains of 1
                      dead bird in my yard.. They ate the bird. All that was left was feathers. I saw them eating a
                      mouse the other day but they ate it. They did not kill it just to kill. That is it. I did rescue a
                      baby bunny from them.. Which I'm sure they would have eaten. But that is it. They have been
                      out there 1 1/2 years..
                      They will kill, yes I admit that but it isn't as bad as you say.

                      You and your kind kill just for fur. My cats have never killed just for feathers.. If you hunt,
                      you kill just for sport and yet you condemn poor dumb animals..You kill for meat when it is
                      not necessary. There are other things to eat but you CHOOSE to kill.

                      .By the way Alyce, the problem with killing a trapper, is that the generally defend themselves.


                      ***Yeah I guess you could defend yourself. Too bad those you choose to kill can't defend
                      themselves.. Who knows, I've always heard what goes around comes around???



Saturday 08/04/2001 9:48:17pm
              Name: mark
             E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: nope Alyce and BD, feral cats are one thing, and tame cats are yet another, but both kill for
                     the sake of killing. BD I know you didn't address this, but then it goes to show what you do
                     know, and how much Alyce don't know. Shrews are rabies carriers, and if I were a vet I
                     wouldn't touch one, other than to kill it.
                     By the way Alyce, the problem with killing a trapper, is that the generally defend themselves,
                     and quite well, I don't think you are quite up to that



Saturday 08/04/2001 9:05:00pm
              Name: Alyce
             E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
        Comments: My personal policy is to shoot any cat I see further away from a home than 100 yards,
                  because all he is doing is killing small game. Yeah, I know that will draw some comments,
                  but that is what I do.

                    *** Cats that are well fed are not that hard on wildlife. If a cat is ferral then whats the
                    @#%$!, they gotta survive too. Do you go around shooting
                    other animals because of their need to
                    survive. Oh no, that right you trap them.

                    Let's "make over" your sentence.. Just a little.

                    My personal policy is to shoot any trapper I see further away from his house that 100
                    yards..because all he is doing is killing small game. Gotcha!!!



Saturday 08/04/2001 8:11:00pm
              Name: BD
             E-Mail:
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Mark, you are one forgetful guy.

                    However IF I posted such a statement, saying that I would take on everyone on this board, all
                    at once or one at a time, it was either in jest, or not posted by me.

                    ***"Veggie, Weebs (and what the hell, you can bring BD along if you want to) I'll take you
                    all on."

                    Jeesh, the amount of times we all heard this!

                    For one thing I don't use the term "buttocks", I much prefer A$$.

                    ***I believe the ALF Responder used "buttocks" instead of the word you used for a reason...


                    At any rate, it is ancient history, and has nothing to do with what this forum is about, so why
                    the discussion?

                    ***Most people wouldn't consider a month ago ancient history. But, oh well.

                    As for the shrew, well, I know this seems cold hearted but I don't much blame the vet.

                    ***Of course you don't blame the vet, after all it was "just" an animal.

                    I do agree with BD however, that cats should be kept indoors as they are hard on local
                    wildlife populations. We have two rehab centers here who stay busy with victims of "cat
                    attacks".

                    ***Hey, I'm proud of you. Finally, something decent to say. :)
                       My personal policy is to shoot any cat I see further away from a home than 100 yards,
                       because all he is doing is killing small game. Yeah, I know that will draw some comments,
                       but that is what I do.

                       ***Oops, you just blew it!



Saturday 08/04/2001 7:04:33pm
              Name: mark
             E-Mail: trappermh@aol.com
   Homepage URL:
           Location:
         Comments: Ah BD we have been through the "but kicking" thing far to many times by email. Your
                     invitation remains open, though I would rather not waste the time or energy:) As for ancient
                     posts, like my material for newspapers or magazines, I seldom keep them in the top of my
                     mind longer than the time necessary for them to be published. However IF I posted such a
                     statement, saying that I would take on everyone on this board, all at once or one at a time, it
                     was either in jest, or not posted by me. For one thing I don't use the term "buttocks", I much
                     prefer A$$. At any rate, it is ancient history, and has nothing to do with what this forum is
                     about, so why the discussion?
                     As for the shrew, well, I know this seems cold hearted but I don't much blame the vet. I do
                     agree with BD however, that cats should be kept indoors as they are hard on local wildlife
                     populations. We have two rehab centers here who stay busy with victims of "cat attacks". My
                     personal policy is to shoot any cat I see further away from a home than 100 yards, because all
                     he is doing is killing small game. Yeah, I know that will draw some comments, but that is
                     what I do. Dogs are also a big problem, even though we have a state wide leash law in Ky.
                     They have been breeding with the coyotes here, which makes for a pretty bad combination.
                     The "coydog" as they are called, play hell on cattle, sheep, deer, and anything else that gets in
                     their way. Typically these guys kill for the joy of killing, and what is worse, they have been
                     known to attack humans as well. Now I know many of you believe animals to be basically