SCA hist3 msg - DOC by HC111111051713

VIEWS: 35 PAGES: 78

									SCA-hist3-msg - 10/21/11
Messages on the history of the SCA from 9/1994 to 11/2009.

NOTE: See also the files: SCA-hist1-msg, SCA-hist2-msg, SCA-stories1-msg, SCA-
romance-msg, Hst-SCA-Fence-art, you-know-msg, SCA-in-books-msg.

************************************************************************
NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have
collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date
back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These
files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate
topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous
information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save
space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no
claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages.
The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information
is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************

"History is a moving target that changes as fresh details are discovered, as
errors are corrected, as popular attitudes shift. Historians carve the
sculpture that is Truth not out of granite, but out of wet clay."

-   From the preface to "The Life of Muad'Dib" in the Dune series.
-----

From: mchance at crl.com (Michael A. Chance)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Freon Can Helms
Date: 10 Sep 1994 15:59:01 -0700

Jost wrote:
>Recently, responding to Bertram, you wrote:

>> I _still_ own a freon can helm. I lend it out to people without helms, though
>> we almost have enough helms that new fighters don't get to wear it anymore.

>Freon can helms are still legal on the field in Caid? They aren't legal in
>Atlantia or even Meridies (which hits and takes _real_ light).

Unless I've missed something _really_ big, it's been nearly a decade
since freon can helms (even reinforced ones) were legal _anywhere_ in
the SCA. I'd just started fighting (in AS 17) about the time they
banned helms made from old US Army helmets and un-reinforced freon
cans, and it was about a year or so later that the ban on _any_ type
of helm based on a freon can was imposed.

Mikjal Annarbjorn
--
Michael A. Chance          St. Louis, Missouri, USA        "At play in the fields
Work: mc307a at sw1stc.sbc.com                                 of St. Vidicon"
Play: mchance at crl.com
      mchance at nyx.cs.du.edu


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Subject: Re: Freon Can Helms
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 04:30:50 GMT

"Firstly, Freon cans varied a lot in thickness depending on their
date of manufacture" (Sebastian)

Indeed. For many years I fought in a helm made from a freon tank
dating from before they switched to disposables. It was the thickest,
and heaviest, helm I have ever owned, and I am confident that, so far
as thickness is concerned, it would still be legal. I lent it out,
years ago, to some new people who were short of armor, and am not
sure what became of it. I am told that Jon the Lean, who made it (c.
A.S. 5?), tested one of the others of the series by shooting it with
a .32, with no effect.

David/Cariadoc


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: John, R., Edgerton <sirjon at sns.com>
Subject: Re: Freon Can Helms
Keywords: freon, armor, helms
Organization: Systems'n'Software, Fremont, CA      94539-6669
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 07:28:06 PDT

donnn at freenet3.scri.fsu.edu (Donn Nieder) writes:

>   david director friedman (ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu) wrote:
>
>   :   Indeed. For many years I fought in a helm made from a freon tank
>   :   dating from before they switched to disposables. It was the thickest,
>   :   and heaviest, helm I have ever owned, and I am confident that, so far
>   :   as thickness is concerned, it would still be legal. I lent it out,
>   :   years ago, to some new people who were short of armor, and am not
>   :   sure what became of it. I am told that Jon the Lean, who made it (c.
>   :   A.S. 5?), tested one of the others of the series by shooting it with
>   :   a .32, with no effect.
>
>   I'm afraid that holding up under the effect of a .32 would not
>   necessarily give me great confidence in a helm's ability to protect my
>   head. People (without armor) often get shot with .32s with little or no
>   effect. :)
>
>   Giovanni
>   --
>   ------------------------------------------------
>   Internet: donnn at freenet.tlh.fl.us
>   Lord Giovanni di Rienzi           Donn Nieder



Edited by Mark S. Harris               SCA-hist3-msg            Page 2 of 78
> Oldenfeld, Trimaris                 Tallahassee FL

********************

        The early freon can helms, made from the non disposalable
drums, were about 10 or 12 guage. There is still one in use in
the West at a weekly fighter practice as a loner for new fighters
(who get hit in the head a lot). The last I heard it had still
taken no damage except to the bar grill.
        A early heavy drum had also been tested with a heavy
railroad spike hammer( rather like a war hammer) which was swung
two handed by Duke Henrick of Havn, the helm was sitting on the
pavement. The only damage was a slight dent less than a quarter
inch deep.
        However, the later disposable drums are to thin to make
safe helms.

Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf (called the Lean)      John R. Edgerton
Esfenn, Mist, West                       Newark, California

----
sirjon at sns.com (John, R., Edgerton)
Systems'n'Software
(510)623-8656 FAX (510)623-8652 DATA


From: sandradodd at aol.com (SandraDodd)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: A question about knights
Date: 3 Oct 1994 14:57:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)

In article <780902893.AA01471 at jina.rain.com>,
Suze.Hammond at f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Suze Hammond) writes [about whether
knights ought to be required to know how to ride horses]:
<<Although it might be a bit stiff as a requirement, I think it would do a
lot for our general sense of medievality if many of them at least tried
it.>>

A dozen years or so ago, there was a major Corpora revision. In its draft
form, one of the requirements of knighthood was familiarity with horses,
riding, etc. I don't recall its having been expert horsemanship, but just
knowledge of...    The rule was proposed/written by knights in the West
who did/could ride horses, and shot down vehemently by knights in the East
who couldn't/didn't/didn't want to try.

Sometimes I wish there were several smaller re-enactment groups scattered
all around, and some had "knighthood" for rapier fighting, and some had no
rapier fighting at all, and some required knights to ride horses, and some
didn't require that knights had ever seen a live horse, and that there was
just the perfect club for every taste and that I wasn't involved in the
administration of any of them. We would all be so happy!

AElflaed


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Peers as Members (was Re: Obligations of Peerage?)
Date: 1 Nov 1994 17:41:59 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley



Edited by Mark S. Harris              SCA-hist3-msg           Page 3 of 78
[Hal posting from Dorothy's account...]
In article <393cmh$qh5 at nyx10.cs.du.edu>,
Mark A. Cochran <mcochran at nyx10.cs.du.edu> wrote:
>djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>->[Hal posting from Dorothy's account...]
>->Try another few consequences of such an alternate (SCA)
>->history....
>->
>->The Order of the Pelican would not exist.
>->
>Why not?

In the beginning... The Chivalry was for fighting and the Laurel
was for all else (including service). At the time, the Board of
Directors had delusions of grandeur, styling itself (for a time)
as "the Imperial Electors" and using vert, a laurel wreath or for
corporate arms (this is a counterchange of the West kingdom minus
the crown). The various kingdoms weren't giving Peerages to
those whose work was pretty much exclusively for corporate
activities--in part and in some cases simply because doing the
work isn't the *only* criterion for recognition. The Board of
the time being a bit miffed about this created a new Peerage-level
award (the Order of the Pelican) to recognize those working for
the corporation.

Much trouble brewed up over this....

In the end, the Board quit giving awards at all and "released"
the Pelican to the kingdoms.

Had the initial structure of the corporation being simply an
interface between the medieval and modern worlds been kept, the
Board would never have tried this stunt and the Pelican wouldn't
have been created.

      --Hal Ravn
       (Hal Heydt)


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Peers as Members (was Re: Obligations of Peerage?)
Date: 31 Oct 1994 03:10:31 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

In article <38mh8u$blv at ankh.iia.org>, Leah Jolovich <jolovicl at iia.org>
wrote:
>Kevin Davis Connery (keradwc at rahul.net) wrote:
>
>: 2: I was hoping for a culture which held some validity to the ideas and
>:     structures of various medieval and/or renaissance ones, rather than a
>:     modern subculture, fashioned along modern lines; had I sought out a
>:     group which meant to invent their own traditions, I could far more
>:     readily join a fantasy roleplaying group.
>
>The SCA was never intended to be a fantasy group, but I am sure there are
>numerous fantasy groups out there.

That's not strictly true. There were major fantasy elements in
the Society in its earliest days. An early (and long time)



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg             Page 4 of 78
Chancellor of the Excehquer of the West was Sir Robert of
Dunharrow. The original form of Jon de Cles' (the first Steward)--A
winged camel--had *biplane* wings.

All that pretty much worked its way out within the first 5 years
or so, but it *did* exist.

>I see by your .sig that you have Santa
>Clara, CA. If this is indeed where you are looking for fantasy groups in
>the vicinity of, then I ask anyone here on the Rialto with information on
>such groups in that area to please send what information they have on
>them to Mr. Connery.

Best advice I can provide is for Mr. Connery to go to DunDraCon
over President's Day weekend in February in San Ramon.
Information is available from:

      DunDraCon, Inc.
      1145 Talbot Ave.
      Albany, CA 19706

            --Hal Ravn
             (Hal Heydt)


From: sandradodd at aol.com (SandraDodd)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: definition of college
Date: 25 Oct 1994 18:55:05 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)

In article <9410240937.aa07495 at mc.lcs.mit.edu>, MPER9946 at uriacc.uri.EDU
writes:<<I've looked in corpora and I'm still slightly confused. I
always thought, and was always told that the two were essentially the
same but that a college could go dormant for lack of members or officers
without being dissolved. Is this true? >>

Original intent, correct (Bevin Fraser was Steward, there were five
kingdoms, and she borrowed my proposed definition for the original
definition). Some kingdoms have defined a college as a type of canton
(i.e., subsidiary to a barony), but we have on in the Outlands which is on
the level of a shire, in a college town in which it is the sole SCA group.
 Colleges were defined as groups which could have off seasons (like
summer, when school's out) and also (originally) which were not expected
to necessarily have a well-rounded set of activities, the thinking being
that a military school might not have much arts, a music school might not
have much fighting, etc. They were generally to be allowed to specialize
and to fall dormant and pick up again when school started again.

I don't know about current references. You should definitely check with
your kingdom seneschal or Duchess Sedalia for that.

AElflaed of Duckford (Outlands)


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: MidRealm Newsletter
Date: 16 Nov 1994 17:58:20 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley




Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg            Page 5 of 78
[Hal posting from Dorothy's account...]
In article <3a4aq4$p05 at vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
F.L. Watkins <folo at prairienet.org> wrote:
>I remember the very fannish early TIs and PALEs (dittoed in those
>days).

I don't know about the _Pale_, but _TI_ was never done on ditto.
It was mimeograph all the way.

At the 25th year Beltane, the daily notices were printed up on
site using ditto.

For those who really want to use obscure reproduction techniques,
go research hectograph--and why it was the favorite of
underground organizations in WW-II.

       --Hal Ravn
        (Hal Heydt)


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: locksley at indirect.com (Joe Bethancourt)
Subject: Re: Crowns, Coronets, & Law
Organization: Internet Direct, indirect.com
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 15:33:22 GMT

SandraDodd (sandradodd at aol.com) wrote:
: Other people said:

: <<>You mean modern things like it being okay for any woman <adult> being
: >allowed to fight, and to be named a knight, etc?

:   <<Documented medieval practice, though admittedly unusual. Given the
:   number of prominent women fighters and knights in the SCA, I don't
:   think that our re-creation is that out of line (although an entirely
:   seperate debate could be held on why this is so).>>

:   They didn't allow it on the basis of its being period. They allowed it
:   because (I understand, it was somewhat before my time) they were
:   threatened with a discrimination lawsuit if they didn't.   Lawsuits are
:   period. <g>

Nope. It was allowed because Mistress (Sir) Trude Lacklandia proved it
was period.

(Since I was the LSoA that did it....I guess I should know. And I had told
Trude specifically that I would -not- do it under any threat of lawsuit,
equal rights stuff or the like.....and she agreed with me.)

--
locksley at indirect.com            PO Box 35190        Locksley Plot Systems
White Tree Productions       Phoenix, AZ 85069 USA         CyberMongol Ltd


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: cloven fruit?
From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 94 08:56:59 EST

Dorian_Davis at equinox.gen.nz (Yoshitoshi) writes:




Edited by Mark S. Harris             SCA-hist3-msg            Page 6 of 78
>   Michael Josef Lindberg (lindberg at oregon.uoregon.edu) wrote:
>   : I was just wondering if anybody could tell me of the history and origins
>   : of cloven fruit. I'm doing a folklore project on it and would like to know
>   : if customs in other kingdoms are different than those here in An-Tir. Also
>   : any variations would be greatly appreciated.
>
>   : Thanx
>   : Cynric
>
>   As I understand it, the cloven fruit is a wholely 100% SCA invention. If, as
>   sometimes happens, an Autocrat has forgotten to pack lemons for an event
>   (shame), you can always use a Zen lemon instead!!! :)
>
> Matsuyama Yoshitoshi
> <who really likes the taste of cloves, and uses the oil to clean his blades>
> Shire of the Southron Gaard, Caid.
      Respected friends:
      It's not only an SCA invention, I believe I invented it. (or
re-invented it, since some westerners believe they ran across them in '72.)
I was looking for a kissing-game (Ah, the innocent days when pennicillin
cured _everything_) other than the then ubiquitous carol-dance "Prinkum
Prankum". My research turned up some good, authentic games that would not
have suited my group (In one, you had to make up a poem on the spot to earn
your kiss. Can you say "Doggerel"? I thought you could... }:-> )
      Anyway, I finally found a reference to French swains giving pomanders
to their ladyloves, as a symbol of both sweetness and purity. (I was so green
in those days, if I'd stood still too long I'd have taken root. Try to be
kind, okay?)
      Well, `everybody knew' a pomander was a lemon with cloves stuck in it,
right? So I made a "pomander" and a snatch of truly dreadful music to introduce
it with, and it was the hit of the event.
      This happened in the summer of either '73 or '74- in either case, my
Sci-Fi-fan older sister imported it to fandom- possibly before it actually
was used at my event, as we'd been discussing it for weeks.
      By the time I got leave from Japan in the spring of '75 it had already
mutated to include the bite-a-clove variant. By the time of my discharge in
'76, there were clove (fill in the blank) crawling out of the woodwork...
      The rest isn't exactly history, but it is "Customary and Traditional"
(stifles gagging)... and is one of the things in my life I'd go back and
change if I could. Even forty versions of "There was a young lass from the
Towers..." would have been worth it, in the long run.
      Sigh... The things we live to regret...

Yrs in service (and embarrassment)
Una Wicca (that pict)

(Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk R.S.F.
Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf C.O.L. SCA


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Cloven fruit!?!%!
From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 94 07:28:22 EST

wlinden at panix.com (Will Linden) writes:

> In <17446.303.uupcb at 7thwave.com> bettina.helms at 7thwave.com (Bettina
Helms) w
>
> >KE>From: Kelly.Coco at mvs.udel.EDU



Edited by Mark S. Harris             SCA-hist3-msg            Page 7 of 78
>   >KE>Subject: Cloven fruit!?!%!
>
>   >KE>         I too would like to know the origins of this insidious :-) practice
>
> >The cloved lemon was introduced to the SCA by Mistress Alizaunde de
> >Breguef (who back then did not even have an AoA), at a Canton of the
> >Towers (East Kingdom) event in February of AS 8(?). She meant it as a
> >--Katja Hjalmarsdottir
> >who wasn't in the SCA when cloved lemons were introduced, but who
> >heard the story from Alizaunde herself.
>   ...and Lisa Goldenstar told me it was _her_. Sigh...
      Respected friends:
      Lisa helped do the research, helped make the original clove lemon
used, and participated as fully in the fun as any of us there. If she really
wants the "credit" for this particular SCAbomination, I'll be perfectly
willing to demote myself to the less guilt-ridden status of co-conspiritor.
She is certainly as guilty as my sister for seeing it didn't die a natural
death after that one event. (Me, I ran off to the Army- as thousands of other
folk who did something dumb at home have done before me...)

(Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk R.S.F.
Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf C.O.L. SCA


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA Authors <long>
Date: 15 Dec 1994 20:41:34 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

[Hal posting from Dorothy's account...]
In article <Pine.3.89.9412141903.A847-0100000 at mail>,
kroussea <kroussea at mail.cc.trincoll.EDU> wrote:
>A glaring omission from this list is Katherine Kurtz!
>
>The last peice of information I have is that someone once told me that
>Katherine is a former Steward. I'm sure there are records (and
>oldtimers) who could verify this.

Yup. Also former Seneschal of the Principality of Caid and former
Princess of Caid (which makes her part of the Grey and Faceless
Legion of Western Viscounts).

           --Hal Ravn
            (Hal Heydt)


From: Kim.Salazar at em.doe.GOV
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: "Don" - usage for Knight, AS XII
Date: 18 Jan 1995 14:58:23 -0500
Organization: The Internet

       Gentles,

       As an aside, my lord husband, Don Fernando Salazar y Perez, Count and
       Knight began using "Don" when he was knighted in AS XII. Being of
       Spanish persona, he much prefers that title to any other.

       We have been in retirement for a very long time, and the thought that
       he may find people objecting to that usage now is very distressing.



Edited by Mark S. Harris                SCA-hist3-msg            Page 8 of 78
     At least one very accomplished Carolingian Lady of Spanish persona
     (whom I admire greatly) has been using "Dona" since she attained that
     rank circa AS-single-digits.


     -Ianthe d'Averoigne, OR, OL                  kim.salazar at em.doe.gov
     Forever a Carolingian


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Untrained and Dangerous
Date: 11 Jan 1995 19:16:20 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

[Hal posting from Dorothy's account...]
In article <ab2cef26 at nudity.uucp>, David W. James <vnend at nudity.UUCP>
wrote:
>      And the requirement for authorization is only about ten or twelve
>years old. Lots of us were fighting without authorizing, in all kingdoms.

Formal authorization fights were taking place in the West at
least as far back as 1970. There just wasn't any paperwork
associated with the process.

      --Hal Ravn
       (Hal Heydt)


From: fholland at ix.netcom.com (Frank Holland)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: "Sir" vs. "Dame" ???
Date: 17 Mar 1995 07:45:20 GMT
Organization: Netcom

In <D5IAH8.Eun at serval.net.wsu.edu> i9253209 at unicorn.it.wsu.edu (Joseph
Erhard-Hudson) writes:

>I gather that most female knights use the appelation "sir". It is
>my understanding that "dame" is the equivalent mundane title for a
>woman who has entered an order of knighthood. Why is this title not
>used in the sca? I'm sure the knights in question have their good
>reasons, I'm simply curious what they are.
>
>Is it because the title is OOP?
>Did female knights of period use either title?
>Do the worthy knights of today simply like "sir" better?
>
>Sorry if this has all been hashed out before.
>--
>Joseph Erhard-Hudson
>i9253209 at wsunix.wsu.edu

According to legend, Sir Trudy started it with that (in)famous line,
"ain't NOBODY gonna call ME a DAME!!!!

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mindrakken van der Zilver (aka Frank Holland)
Barony of Caerthe, The Outlands (aka Denver CO)
------------------------------------------------------------------------



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg               Page 9 of 78
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: axv0015 at vaxb.isc.rit.edu (Andrew Veter)
Subject: Children at Events
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 1995 02:59:18 GMT

Dear Gentle,

      When I joined the Society at age 8, in 1978, the age of majority for
girls was 12 and for boys it was 14. I myself received my A.O.A. at the age of
11 and felt I was quite the grown-up lady. These age limits meant that a
person could fight or be fought for at the stated ages.

      The limits were changed in 1982. At that time, it was not required
that a parent or legal guardian accompany a child to an event. It was quite
common to have kids going to events with an aunt, an uncle , or a friend of the
family. [Pennsic comes to mind here, although I realize that a parent must
accompany children to all events.]

      Now, imagine that you are 12, Queen of your kingdom, and going to
events with a friend of your parents. All this event-going has effected your
grades and your parents have grounded you--no events for one month. It would
cause many problems for the kingdom if a royal were confined to their room and
could not attend say Crown Tourney.

      My point is that we have to take mundane life into consideration and
can not always do things as they would have been done in period.

      Be glad that this is the case--you wouldn't want your parents to marry
you off to some old man you'd never met before, just so they could increase
their lands!

                      Respectfully submitted by,

                           Lady Amanda of Kirksby Lonsdale, ctc QOC
                               Barony of Thescorre, East Kingdom

mka Suzanne Lonsdale
Written on Viscount Sir Ariel's account.


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Info Medieval Cities?
Date: 23 Mar 1995 17:35:58 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

In article <3krf7p$s9t$1 at canberra.dialix.oz.au>,
Paul Sleigh <fruitbat at canberra.DIALix.oz.au> wrote:
>Just tuned in half way through so I may be getting this wrong, but...
>The Shire of Politarchopolis (Canberra, Australia) tried to advance from
>Shire to Chartered Town. We got a charter together, elected a Lord and
>Lady Mayor, everything _seemed_ fine, but some twonk in the Central West
>or the BoD stuffed up and let beaurocrasy and their own incompetence get
>in the way.

That's a biased view, and only partly correct. The Charter was
sent to the Kingdom Seneschal, who was delayed getting it back
for corrections (there were some parts that badly needed changing



Edited by Mark S. Harris              SCA-hist3-msg           Page 10 of 78
to fit into the SCA structure) mostly due to the Board blow-up at
the time. Also due to the same Board problems, the was wasn't
about to approve a new branch type. *That* "problem" may still
exist, by the way. In any case, the Chartered Town idea was
never run by the Board at all.

As a philosophical point, I don't know which would be best for
getting something like this through the Board. One the one hand,
saying "this is what we're trying to do, please approve this form
of branch" presents an immediacy to act. On the other hand,
writing up a thurough case for Chartered Cities based on Medieval
models and petitioning the Board to approve the idea without a
specific instance in mind feels like a better way to run the
Society. I'd appreciate comments from Board members (and I hold
that disclaimers are implied) on which way people should jump on
issues like this.

      --Hal Ravn
       (Hal Heydt)


From: justin at dsd.camb.inmet.COM (Mark Waks)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Shires and Baronies -- the original definitions -- LONG
Date: 28 Mar 1995 17:07:56 -0500
Organization: The Internet

Akimoya(-dono) replies to me:

>>The following (below my signature) is from the original Corpora of the
>>Society, and is Copyright 1972. It is, I believe, the first official
>
>I thought that there was a *1969* version, which I believe Master Cathal
>mentioned he had. I could be wrong, though.

Yes and no; you're misunderstanding how these things originally worked.
Corpora was not originally the unitary document it is today; instead,
it was arranged as a collection of decisions and precedents, much as
our current Governing and Policy Decisions are.

The thing that dates from 1969 is the original ByLaws, which are also
in my collection. (As are the first several years' worth of
amendments.) However, Corpora was issued in annual "volumes", as the
decisions were handed down. The above description of group structures
(which appears to be the first clear word on the subject) was decided
in 1972, and appears in Corpora Volume 2. (Actually, now that I check
it, the copyright is 1973, the year after the decision itself, which
makes sense.)

I have Corpora up through Volume 4 on my desk, although I've only
gotten around to typing in through Volume 2. One of these days, I'll
finish the job. (Although most of the really interesting stuff is in
the first two volumes -- volume 3 manages to spend literally over 20
pages describing the policies for appointment, removal, and suspension
of officers in ludicrous detail...)

                                -- Justin


From: ioseph at primenet.com (Joe Bethancourt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg           Page 11 of 78
Subject: Re: REALLY REALLY old timers needed
Date: 4 Apr 1995 22:09:14 GMT
Organization: Primenet

Rebecca LeDock (ral at netcom.com) wrote:
: If you were in the SCA prior to A.S. 7 and can give me answer to where
: the phrase that the SCA "re-creates the Middle Ages as they were and
: should have been" originated, I would appreciate it. If you became a
: member post A.S. 7 and know, that works, too. The crucial part is that I
: joined in A.S. 6, became an officer in A.S. 7, and remember seeing this
: is some "official" capacity. Since I have, over the years, served many
: offices of the SCA, I can give you no hint what it was in, just that it
: came in the mail from outside Meridies and would have been in some
: kingdom handbook, the Corpora, incorporation papers, something "official",

: And now I can't remember where and it's driving my brain crazy.

"Handbook of the Current Middle Ages." The same place where it said our
period ends at 1650 .........

 ioseph at primenet.com               PO Box 35190          Locksley Plot Systems
 White Tree Productions          Phoenix, AZ 85069             CyberMongol Ltd
(who joined in AS 2)


From: mchance at crl.com (Michael A. Chance)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: REALLY REALLY old timers needed
Date: 6 Apr 1995 12:44:50 -0700
Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access

Arval d'Espas Nord writes:

>Greetings from Arval!     Ioseph reported:

>>   : If you were in the SCA prior to A.S. 7 and can give me answer to where
>>   : the phrase that the SCA "re-creates the Middle Ages as they were and
>>   : should have been" originated, I would appreciate it.
>>
>>   "Handbook of the Current Middle Ages." The same place where it said our
>>   period ends at 1650 .........

>That's one that I haven't seen. What was that handbook? Who wrote it?
>Did it have any official standing (like Corpora) or not (like the Known
>World Handbook)?

For shame, Arval, you've been neglecting your East Kingdom history!
This is the famous book on which all of the Eastern Rite kingdoms are
founded, and is why Duke Cariadoc refers to them as "people of the
Book" vs. the Western Rite's "people of the Word". It's the original
"Known World Handboke".

Perhaps it's time for a refresher course.     Anyone who was there want
to fill in the details?

Mikjal Annarbjorn
--
Michael A. Chance          St. Louis, Missouri, USA       "At play in the fields
Work: mc307a at sw1stc.sbc.com                                of St. Vidicon"
Play: mchance at crl.com




Edited by Mark S. Harris              SCA-hist3-msg           Page 12 of 78
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ral at netcom.com (Rebecca LeDock)
Subject: Re: REALLY REALLY old timers needed
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 23:48:41 GMT

Michael A. Chance (mchance at crl.com) wrote:
: Arval d'Espas Nord writes:

: >Greetings from Arval!     Ioseph reported:

:   >>   : If you were in the SCA prior to A.S. 7 and can give me answer to where
:   >>   : the phrase that the SCA "re-creates the Middle Ages as they were and
:   >>   : should have been" originated, I would appreciate it.
:   >>
:   >>   "Handbook of the Current Middle Ages." The same place where it said our
:   >>   period ends at 1650 .........

: >That's one that I haven't seen. What was that handbook? Who wrote it?
: >Did it have any official standing (like Corpora) or not (like the Known
: >World Handbook)?

:   For shame, Arval, you've been neglecting your East Kingdom history!
:   This is the famous book on which all of the Eastern Rite kingdoms are
:   founded, and is why Duke Cariadoc refers to them as "people of the
:   Book" vs. the Western Rite's "people of the Word". It's the original
:   "Known World Handboke".

: Perhaps it's time for a refresher course.     Anyone who was there want
: to fill in the details?

:   Mikjal Annarbjorn
:   --
:   Michael A. Chance          St. Louis, Missouri, USA      "At play in the fields
:   Work: mc307a at sw1stc.sbc.com                               of St. Vidicon"
:   Play: mchance at crl.com

 Corpora? I attend my first SCA event in April of '72, paid money in
September (member # 1353, thank you), and NEVER heard of anyone in
Meridies with a Corpora prior to '76. So whatever people wrote down from
earlier kingdoms, we had to believe.

I mean, we were lucky to get newsletters back then. Why do you think
people subscribed to the BOD minutes? It was one of the few things that
did come in the mail!

Rebecca of Twywn


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: REALLY REALLY old timers needed
Date: 8 Apr 1995 04:22:28 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

In article <3m1gbi$fc0 at crl.crl.com>, Michael A. Chance <mchance at crl.com>
wrote:
>Arval d'Espas Nord writes:
>For shame, Arval, you've been neglecting your East Kingdom history!
>This is the famous book on which all of the Eastern Rite kingdoms are



Edited by Mark S. Harris               SCA-hist3-msg           Page 13 of 78
>founded, and is why Duke Cariadoc refers to them as "people of the
>Book" vs. the Western Rite's "people of the Word". It's the original
>"Known World Handboke".

If believe that characterization is from Hilary of Serendip.

>Perhaps it's time for a refresher course.   Anyone who was there want
>to fill in the details?

The short form is that the document in question was written for
the demo given at the Worldcon held at the Claremont Hotel in
Berkeley in 1969. Fen attending the 'con took the handout home
with them and the East and Middle kingdoms were the result.
Unfortunately, what was written about what the Society was doing
varied considerably from actual practice (sound familiar?).

      --Hal Ravn
       (Hal Heydt)


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Subject: Re: REALLY REALLY old timers needed
Organization: The University of Chicago
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 04:19:03 GMT

"This is the famous book on which all of the Eastern Rite kingdoms
are founded, and is why Duke Cariadoc refers to them as "people of
the Book" vs. the Western Rite's "people of the Word". It's the
original "Known World Handboke". (Mikjal Annarbjorn)

A good line, but not mine, alas. Si non e vero, e ben trovato.

I cannot speak for the East Kingdom, since it was several years old
when I moved there. But when the Middle was being started, the Known
World Handbook was a major source for what we knew about the SCA.

David/Cariadoc


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: REALLY REALLY old timers needed
Date: 12 Apr 1995 14:41:55 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

[Hal posting from Dorothy's account...]
In article <3mfsh1$hrp at ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
Frank Holland <fholland at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>And does anyone else remember when the BOD was referred to as "The
>Imperium" ....and their eventual reaction?

I remember when they styled *themselves* the "Imperial Electors."
(My Lady Wife notes that counter-ermine was restricted for their
use and they were to be addressed as "Your Serenity," until the
day that Bonceur ran into Ruthven of Rockridge, then a Director,
at the San Francisco Opera and boomed out in a resonant voice,
"Oh, Your Serenity, how delightful to see you here this
evening!")

      --Hal Ravn



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg             Page 14 of 78
       (Hal Heydt)


From: ioseph at primenet.com (Joe Bethancourt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: REALLY REALLY old timers needed
Date: 12 Apr 1995 14:53:24 GMT
Organization: Primenet

Frank Holland (fholland at ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: And does anyone else remember when the BOD was referred to as "The
: Imperium" ....and their eventual reaction?

Yup. The phrase was coined by Sarkanyi Gero of the Barony of the Angels, to
the best of my remembrance.

--
 ioseph at primenet.com            PO Box 35190          Locksley Plot Systems
 White Tree Productions       Phoenix, AZ 85069             CyberMongol Ltd


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: REALLY REALLY old timers needed
Date: 13 Apr 1995 01:04:00 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

In article <3mhcj4$451 at ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
Frank Holland <fholland at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
]In <3mgorj$jdi at agate.berkeley.edu> djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy
]J Heydt) writes:
]>[Hal posting from Dorothy's account...]
]>In article <3mfsh1$hrp at ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
]>Frank Holland <fholland at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
]>>And does anyone else remember when the BOD was referred to as "The
]>>Imperium" ....and their eventual reaction?
]>
]>I remember when they styled *themselves* the "Imperial Electors."
]
]Is >that< why the corporate headquarters was referred to as the
]"Imperium Compound"?

"Imperium Compound" was a reference to the practice, but the
primary site at the time was a house still called (by it's
residents) "Greyhaven"--and by some of the rest of us "Elf Hill."

      --Hal Ravn
       (Hal Heydt)


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: A historical perspective...
Date: 20 Apr 1995 22:13:06 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

[Hal posting from Dorothy's account....]

I found the following while persuing an old _Page_ on a quest for some
rather different information, and I thought it might be amusing in
light of more recent events....



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg           Page 15 of 78
FROM THE SCA, INC.:

The Board of Directors has decided to release its minutes to the
populace. For $2.50 a year, one may receive a copy of each month's
minutes, usually in the first week of the following month. Send your
name and address and $2.50 to the Clerk of the Chancery, SCA Inc.,
P. O. Box 1162, Berkeley, California 94701.

The Board will also issue copies of the minutes to the Kingdom
newsletters, to be summarized at the editors' discretion.

At the July meeting, actions included the passing of the above;
confirmation of Richard of Alsace as Seneschal of the Middle Kingdom;
a provision that a member of the Order of the Laurel may petition to
receive a Pelican in its stead, should he so desire; note taken that
T.I. #28 was ready to be mailed; and the acceptance of new branch, to
be called Myrkfaellin (in which Kingdom they don't say).

           (from _The Page_, September AS IX)


           --Hal Ravn
            (Hal Heydt)


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Subject: Re: REALLY REALLY old timers needed
Organization: The University of Chicago
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 16:34:25 GMT

I wrote:

> when the Middle was being started, the Known
> World Handbook was a major source for what we knew about the SCA.

Solveig replied:

"I am astonished to hear this as I thought that the Known World
Handbook
was the creation of an Eastern subject who joined the society in about
the same time frame that the Duke was king of the Eastrealm. I have
always heard that the East Kingdom was created by people reading a
very
early edition of "Forward into the Past"."

I misspoke. The book we used was called (I believe) _The Handbook of
the Current Middle Ages_. I am fairly sure it was not _Forward Into
the Past_. I think of _The Known World Handbook_ as the updated and
much expanded version of _The Handbook of the Current Middle Ages_,
but I was mistaken in assigning the former title to the latter work.

David/Cariadoc


From: David Schroeder <ds4p+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: REALLY REALLY old timers needed
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 20:33:20 -0400




Edited by Mark S. Harris              SCA-hist3-msg          Page 16 of 78
Organization: Sponsored account, Graduate School of Industrial Administr.,
Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Excerpts from netnews.rec.org.sca: 23-Apr-95 Re: REALLY REALLY old
timer.. by david d. friedman at quads.
> I wrote:
>
> > when the Middle was being started, the Known
> > World Handbook was a major source for what we knew about the SCA.
>
> Solveig replied:
>
>> "I am astonished to hear this as I thought that the Known World
>> Handbook was the creation of an Eastern subject who joined the
>> society in about the same time frame that the Duke was king of
>> the Eastrealm. I have always heard that the East Kingdom was
>> created by people reading a very early edition of
>> "Forward into the Past"."
>
> I misspoke. The book we used was called (I believe) _The Handbook of
> the Current Middle Ages_. I am fairly sure it was not _Forward Into
> the Past_. I think of _The Known World Handbook_ as the updated and
> much expanded version of _The Handbook of the Current Middle Ages_,
> but I was mistaken in assigning the former title to the latter work.
>
> David/Cariadoc

 To the best of my knowledge "Forward Into the Past" was first
 published in the late 1980s. I did the layout and typesetting
 for it and remember doing it then. I also believe that it was
 the first SCA-wide publication of that name, though I used to
 run a column in TI in the early 1980s on language entitled
 "For Words Into the Past..."

 It would be great to have a copy or a photocopy of
 _The Handbook of the Current Middle Ages_ available
 at Pennsic for those of us interested in SCA history
 to examine... Anyone willing to copy their copy?

 My best -- Bertram


From: fp458 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Elise A. Fleming)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: REALLY REALLY old timers needed
Date: 24 Apr 1995 11:30:12 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)

Greetings! _Forward Into the Past_ is a (relatively) NEW (emphasis)
publication. I was the primary writer for it and began work in
November of 1988. It went through the review and revision process
in 1989 with eventual publication late in that year. Has it re-
ceived so much approval that it seems to have been around forever?
(Hm-m-m...if the East was started by someone who read _Forward
Into the Past_ would that make me an old timer? :^) I'd been in
the SCA for not-quite two years when it was published.)

Alys Katharine/Elise (both of whom creak when she attempts to
stand up after posting the message)




Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg           Page 17 of 78
From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: REALLY REALLY old timers needed
Date: 25 Apr 1995 16:03:13 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

[Hal posting from Dorothy's account....]
In article <Ajaj7E600iVDA7wr0G at andrew.cmu.edu>,
David Schroeder <ds4p+ at andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
> It would be great to have a copy or a photocopy of
> _The Handbook of the Current Middle Ages_ available
> at Pennsic for those of us interested in SCA history
> to examine... Anyone willing to copy their copy?

Hilary of Serendip has made photocopies on numerous occasions,
usually for classes on the history of the SCA--including doing so
at Pennsic, I beleive.

The original version was written to pass out at WorldCon in 1968,
and was the version picked up by fen and taken back to start the
East and the Middle. (And, hence, Hilary's distinction between
'the people of the Word' and 'the people of the Book.')

In the mean time, you might inquire of Sedalia, as the Society
Seneschal is probably the inheritor of the Stewards files.

      --Hal Ravn
       (Hal Heydt)


From: rudi3964 at utdallas.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Terms of Address: "My Lord / Gentles"
Date: 15 May 1995 09:12:23 -0500
Organization: The University of Texas at Dallas

rosalyn rice (rorice at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
> "Gentles" as a collective noun synonymous with "you all"
> I presume is a shortened form of "gentlemen and gentlewomen". (Sort   of like
> referring to a collection of waiters and waitresses in a resturaunt   as "the
> wait staff" or "the waits".)
>     Like a lot of other things in the SCA it's origins are probably   lost
> in time and legend and don't have a whole lot to do with historical   practice.
>     Lothar

Amazing. Undocumented speculation and bemoaning the SCA's poor
historical practice in the same posting. Actually, the SCA has it right
this time.

From "The Pardoner's Tale" in Chaucer's *Tales of Caunterbury*:
      But right anon thise gentils gonne to crye,
      "Nay, let him telle us of no ribaudye..."

The Oxford English Dictionary lists many period example of the noun
"gentle" meaning people of the gentle (i.e.landed) classes.

Robin of Gilwell/ Jay Rudin


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: malmberg at badlands.NoDak.edu (Kenric D Malmberg)



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg           Page 18 of 78
Subject: Re: Starting a new group (Help Please)
Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 06:04:14 GMT
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network

Unto Orson the Unfashionable and the others gathered here doth Kenric
Bjarnarson give greetings.
: I have recently moved to a Wollongong, Australia. As there is no local SCA
: group I would like to start one. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
: (I have thought of trying to get some people down to do a demo at the
: local University) Also anyone that might live in the area and is
: interested in helping, could you mail me and tell me.
:                                 Suffering from SCA withdrawel,
:                                 Robert A. Kielbicki,
:                                 A.K.A. Orson the Unfashionable.
:                       (roberta at uow.edu.au)

The West's Senechal's Handbook should give you the requirements for
starting a new group (five members, etc.). This is true for anyone
trying to start a new group (using the correct kingdom's book,
obviously). The kingdom senechal can help with ordering it, getting the
names and addresses of the nearest groups, and even the names of other
SCA folks in your area (we found one who had been a member-at-large for
several years when we got started).

Your best bet for your area would be to first contact the Lochac
(Australia) Senechal, who is obviously closer. Hopefully, someone will
e-mail you that gentle's address and phone. If you don't get it within a
few days, e-mail me and I'll dig up a Lochac contact.

As to enticing local members, a demo is a good idea, but several groups
have started by a newspaper ad (Castel Rouge and Rudivale, to name two).

In service,
Kenric Bjarnarson


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA History Request
Date: 26 May 1995 03:09:15 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

In article <1995May26.011201.19381 at dg-rtp.dg.com>,
Edward Hopkins <hopkins at hopkins.rtp.dg.com> wrote:
>Has there ever been a case in Known World history that
>someone has chosen the name Ardis, then changed his name
>to something else, then won a crown tourney or coronet
>tourney?

The only Ardis I've ever known in the Society   is Duchess Ardis an
Dearg, who never fought in any tourney (women   didn't fight back
then) but was successfully fought for by Duke   Siegfried von
Ho"flichskeit, and who never changed her name   at all so far as I
know.

Does anybody, first off, have documentation for Ardis as a male
name? As a female name? It was also her mundane personal name.
Nobody tried to research its periodicity; this was back in the
morning of the world when there was less noise and more green.
The Beltane Coronation at which she and Siegfried were crowned
for the first time was the first ever SCA overnight camping



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg             Page 19 of 78
event; it was the Year III or thereabouts.

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin            Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West              UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable       djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu
PRO DEO ET REGE


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Longest-active SCA members
Date: 12 Jun 1995 20:27:01 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

In article <1995Jun12.122422 at blah.bsuvc.bsu.edu>,
The Morgenstern Under the Mountain <morgenstern at blah.bsuvc.bsu.edu> wrote:
>
>...Who, as far as anyone knows, is the longest-running member of
>the SCA? .... Are any of the attendees of the original
>event of May, 1966, still active at all in the SCA?

You betcha.   We call them (unofficially) the Order of the Dinosaur.

Still EXCEEDINGLY active: Duke Frederick of Holland, MSCA, OP,
etc etc ad infinitum, generally called "Master Flieg."

Still very active:   Lady Mariana of Silversea, who was one of
Diana's roommates.

Still seen occasionally: Duke Richard of Mont Real, MSCA, who
*won* the first tourney; Mistress Diana Listmaker, OL, OP, who
*gave the first tourney.

These are all in the West Kingdom.

I still see Mistress Elfreida of Greenwalls (Marion Zimmer Bradley)
fairly often, but she doesn't do SCA any more. But she still lives
in Berkeley.

Any Dinosaurs still active in other Kingdoms?

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin            Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West              UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable       djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu
PRO DEO ET REGE


From: Garick Chamberlin <Garick at vonkopke.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Longest-active SCA members
Date: 13 Jun 1995 19:51:12 +0100
Organization: Myorganisation

In article <1995Jun12.122422 at blah.bsuvc.bsu.edu>
           morgenstern at blah.bsuvc.bsu.edu
           "The Morgenstern Under the Mountain" writes:
> think of; are there any more? Are any of the attendees of the original
> event of May, 1966, still active at all in the SCA?

And let's not forget Duke Sir Siegfried von Hofflichkeit, still active in
the West Kingdom as well. (Though hiding up in Allyshia behind the redwood



Edited by Mark S. Harris             SCA-hist3-msg          Page 20 of 78
curtain) His persona dates to A.S. negative 2 and who was practicing sword
fighting in the back yard when they got the idea for that famous party.

Viscount Sir Garick von Kopke
(who found it very strange to have a legend as a member of his populace
when he was baron.)


From: Dria Chamberlin <Talitha at vonkopke.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Five Guiding Philosophies (was: If the SCA's broken...)
Date: 10 Jun 1995 01:42:51 +0100
Organization: Myorganisation

In article <3qkmho$pgv at utdallas.edu> rudi3964 at utdallas.edu writes:
> But I haven't read the tax law. If the SCA, in this low-level way, leads
> its people who aren't interested in research (ignoring for the moment
> those of us who are) into low-level, junior high school knowledge, is
> that sufficiently "educational"? I don't know, and I suspect it's fuzzy
> enough that we'll never know until it goes to court. Would one of the
> tax experts who so completely quashed my first post please consider
> research and learning on this elementary, learn-by-doing level?

Just for the record. It already has gone to court. Many years ago an ex-member
of thr Board of Directors filed a motion that the SCA's 501 (c) (3) status be
removed on exactly the grounds that others have mentioned, i.e. that our main
purpose is fun, not education. This argument fell on deaf ears to the court,
who found that we were meeting every one of our stated goals.

In fact, even without our self education, the educational demos that we do for
schools on a regular basis make us very active as educational foundations go.
IMHO everyone can stop worrying about this particular bogeyman.

                                Vis. Sir Garick von Kopke
                                Honor Virtus Est


From: lsteele at mtholyoke.edu (Lisa Steele)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Five Guiding Philosophies (was: If the SCA's broken...)
Date: 11 Jun 1995 16:10:59 GMT
Organization: Mount Holyoke College

Dria Chamberlin (Talitha at vonkopke.demon.co.uk) wrote:

>   Just for the record. It already has gone to court. Many years ago an ex-member
>   of thr Board of Directors filed a motion that the SCA's 501 (c) (3) status be
>   removed on exactly the grounds that others have mentioned, i.e. that our main
>   purpose is fun, not education. This argument fell on deaf ears to the court,
>   who found that we were meeting every one of our stated goals.

  Citation? I can't find any record of this in the legal databases. It is
also black letter law that a private citizen can't try to force this
issue. The IRS gets to pick who it examines and why.
  I would like to see a copy of this case--the only Court that has the
authority to make this decision is the US Tax Court. All of its decisions
are reported and I have checked there in full-text databases. Plus, the
Court won't let a taxpayer bring this kind of suit and analyze the merits
of the plea.
  -- Esclarmonde




Edited by Mark S. Harris             SCA-hist3-msg           Page 21 of 78
From: ioseph at primenet.com (Joe Bethancourt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Longest-active SCA members
Date: 14 Jun 1995 13:08:57 GMT
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet (602)395-1010

Thomas W Delfs (fridrikr at world.std.com) wrote:
: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:

:   >In article <1995Jun12.122422 at blah.bsuvc.bsu.edu>,
:   >The Morgenstern Under the Mountain <morgenstern at blah.bsuvc.bsu.edu> wrote:
:   >>
:   >>...Who, as far as anyone knows, is the longest-running member of
:   >>the SCA? .... Are any of the attendees of the original
:   >>event of May, 1966, still active at all in the SCA?

: >You betcha.    We call them (unofficially) the Order of the Dinosaur.

: >Still EXCEEDINGLY active: Duke Frederick of Holland, MSCA, OP,
: >etc etc ad infinitum, generally called "Master Flieg."

: >Still very active:    Lady Mariana of Silversea, who was one of
: >Diana's roommates.

: >Still seen occasionally: Duke Richard of Mont Real, MSCA, who
: >*won* the first tourney; Mistress Diana Listmaker, OL, OP, who
: >*gave the first tourney.

: >These are all in the West Kingdom.

: >I still see Mistress Elfreida of Greenwalls (Marion Zimmer Bradley)
: >fairly often, but she doesn't do SCA any more. But she still lives
: >in Berkeley.

: >Any Dinosaurs still active in other Kingdoms?

:   I suspect that at 19+ years, both Baroness Daedra MacBeth a Gryphon and I
:   rank as "very ancient newbies" of the East. Count Sir Jehan de la Marche
:   and Sir Garanhir of Ness are still active in AEthelmearc, and Duke
:   Asbjorn has been known to show at practices and events in Sterlyng Vayle
:   (Binghamton, NY) from time to time.

Lessee, I joined in AS 2, 13 months after the founding of the SCA, along
with Rick Cook (Sir Richard Ironsteed).

                                             -Ioseph
--
 locksley at locksley.com            PO Box 35190          Locksley Plot Systems
 White Tree Productions         Phoenix, AZ 85069             CyberMongol Ltd


From: eilis at haas.berkeley.edu (Lee Forgue)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Case cited by Sir Garik
Date: 15 Jun 1995 17:50:54 GMT
Organization: Haas School of Business, University of California, Berkeley

Garick Chamberlin    <Garick at vonkopke.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>HAROLD.FELD at hq.doe.GOV    writes: > >>



Edited by Mark S. Harris             SCA-hist3-msg             Page 22 of 78
>>      In trying to catch up on my Rialto, I noticed that Sir Garik says that
>>      an individual attempted to litigate the SCA's tax status before the
>>      Tax Court.
>
>Actualy, I didn't say anything about it being TAX Court. I believe it was
>some form of civil court, but I am Not A Lawyer <tm>.

I'm not a lawyer, or a dinosaur, but...

A former Board member (author of a phamphlet called "Trends of Change")
sued the SCA in, I believe, Arizona. His contention was that the SCA
Inc. had accepted his membership money under false pretenses for many
years, since they claimed to be educational and were not. (This suit
was, BTW, brought after he had held a seat on the Board, after he had
been an officer, etc. Many felt that it was brought because the Board
would not come around to his way of thinking on several subjects, like
Royal Perrages for non-fighters.)

The judge threw the suit out of court.

 --- eilis o'boirne


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Diana's Story (was: can i be a dinosaur?)
Date: 16 Jun 1995 04:07:09 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

In article <3rqikr$rl2 at news-4.csn.net>,
Mary Morman <memorman at oldcolo.com> wrote:
>please, dorothea, tell us a story.

Okay, this is approximately the way Diana told it.

      Once upon a time there was a scholar who lived in an
ivory tower. And in that tower lived many other scholars, who
spent their time reading books and writing papers about what
some other scholar had said another scholar had said *another*
scholar had said they used to do in the Middle Ages.

      But the scholar of whom I speak was more fortunate than the
rest, for she used to escape from the tower from time to time and
go down into the town, where she met many interesting people.
And some of these folk belonged to a tribe called "fandom," and
they too read many books and wrote many papers, and they
published them in loose journals printed on coarse wood-pulp
paper. And the scholar, who had some skill as an artist, drew
pictures of knights and ladies and elves and dragons, and these
appeared in the wood-pulp paper journals.

      And in this tribe were two young men with whom the
scholar became acquainted; and they were beautiful young men, one
dark and one fair, and both with eyes the color of summer heaven.
And on a day the scholar went to visit the young men in their
home, and she saw hanging on the wall two bright swords and two
well-wrought shields emblazoned with devices of heraldry. And
she said, "What do you do with those?"

      And the young men replied, "WE FIGHT WITH THEM."




Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg           Page 23 of 78
      And the scholar said, "How splendid. Next time you
practice, I shall come and draw pictures of you."

      And on many a day the young men met to practice their
skills with sword and shield, and the scholar covered many sheets
of wood-pulp paper with their likenesses.

      Then there came the day when the scholar stepped out of
her own house into her back yard, and the thought came to her,

      "You could hold a tournament here.

      "Look! Here the fighters could fight, and here the
spectators could sit, and if there were too many of them some of
them could stand behind the wall there, safe from random blows.
You could do it. You could hold a tournament here."

      And she thought, "How delightful!" But she also bethought
her that she had her Master's orals coming up in two weeks, and
going back into her kitchen, she said to her housemates,

      "I've had the most wonderful idea.   TALK ME OUT OF IT!"

      And she told her housemates her idea, and they all
answered, "That's wonderful! We'll all help!"

      And so they chose the First of May as the date of the
tournament, and they caused to be printed on many sheets of
wood-pulp paper the message, "Come to a Tournament--for that it
is spring." And the message was broadcast all round the ivory
tower and the town besides.

      And on the day, at the stroke of noon, being the time set
to begin the tournament, the scholar set foot outside her door,
and there was no one there.

      And half an hour later, she stepped outside her door
again, and there were fifty people there.

      Then came Jon deCles in the robes of an Archbishop, and
intoned, "Ecce Eduardus Ursus nunc occipite post Christophorum
Robinem tump-tump-tump scalis descendens," and all sang "Amen."
And Elizabeth Pope, Doctor of Philosophy, was named Judge of the
Lists, and the knights and squires came forth to do battle, and
many brave deeds of swordplay were seen.

       And young David the Herald fought so well that Sir
Siegfried von Hoeflischkeit dubbed him Knight there upon the
field.

       And Marynel of Darkhaven, being then but young, had
bidden her father Beverly Hodghead to come to the place half
an hour after she did, in case she wished to return home; but
when he saw the noble company and the deeds that were being done,
he hurried home and returned again in haste, bringing the crossbow
that he had made for himself. And he fired a bolt against one of the
shields, and behold! the point curled up upon itself like a little
shell.

      And a certain Knight was named victor, and he crowned his
Lady with a wreath of roses.



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg             Page 24 of 78
      And then all said to one another, "What shall we do next?"
And it was answered generally thus, "This is Berkeley. Should we
not be protesting something?" And they marched up and down
Telegraph Avenue protesting the ugliness of the twentieth
century, from which they had escaped that day.

      And then, passing by the market, they bought roasted
chickens and bottles of wine, and returning to the field of the
tournament, they built a fire and sat around it, eating chickens
and drinking wine and telling tales, long into the night.

      And the scholar, sitting by the fire, said to herself,
"This happened. This really happened. The Last Tournament
*wasn't* in 1839, it happened today; and someday, years from now,
I shall be able to tell my grandchildren that once, just once
long ago, this happened."

      But the man seated beside her was saying to the man next
to him, "Now, *next* time I'm going to hit him like THIS!"

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin            Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West              UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable       djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu
PRO DEO ET REGE


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: sirjon at netcom.com (John Edgerton)
Subject: Re: can i be a dinosaur?
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 04:18:53 GMT

Dorothy J Heydt (djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu) wrote:
: >> Jill.Mason at f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Jill Mason) writes:
: >>
: >> >By the reckoning I was taught, 1st tourney folks are amoebas, yr 2 to
: >> >then comes the dinosaurs second tourney, wooly mammoths are
: >> >c.1974thru1980. etc.

:   Hmmm. I didn't see this at the time she posted. Here in the
:   West, where most of the known dinosaurs still live, dinosaurs are
:   those who were at the original tourney in Diana's back yard. The
:   rest of us aren't anything much. I was at the second tourney. I
:   don't describe myself as anything in particular, except an
:   awfully OLD old-timer.

: Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin          Dorothy J. Heydt
: Mists/Mists/West                  UC Berkeley
: Argent, a cross forme'e sable           djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu
: PRO DEO ET REGE
***********************
And I came in at Twelth Night II, and do not even consider myself an
oldtimer.

Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf(Once upon a time Jon the Lean)
Esfenn, Mists, West
John R. Edgerton, Newark, CA: sirjon at netcom.com


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca



Edited by Mark S. Harris             SCA-hist3-msg           Page 25 of 78
Subject: Re: Arabic Clothing.
From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 95 09:59:41 EDT

DDFr at Midway.UChicago.edu (David Friedman) writes:
> > Arabic Court Baron wear?
>
> What would an English Court Baron wear? So far as I know, both are
> imaginary; I think "Court Baron" is an SCA invention, although I could be
> wrong. What actual Muslim rank do you want to assume it corresponds to?
>
> "Arab" is a pretty vague term. When and wear do you assume you are from?
>
> > Did the Arabs use Coronets or anything close?
>
> Good question. Off hand I can't think of any examples.
>
> > Baron Achbar ibn Ali
> --
> David/Cariadoc
> DDFr at Midway.UChicago.Edu
Respected friends:
Well, we re-invented it. There were landless barons in the Crusader
Kingdom of Acre, and their French name translated into modern english,
approximately of course, as "Barons of the Court". They either advised
(royal council-ish) or administrated, but I forget which.
This is secondhand from a man who has done a lot of research in
Crusader subjects. When he found out about SCA court barons, he thought it
was very funny; he seemed to think the Acre originals were _very_ good
with people, and I personally know at least two Court Barons who got that
rank because no order would tolerate them...

                                Yours in service to the Society-
                                (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk R.S.F.
                                Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf C.O.L. SCA
                                Una Wicca (That Pict)


From: ansteorra at eden.com (7/10/95)
To: ansteorra at eden.com
RE>Ideal event

><n.b-reid at mail.utexas.edu (Nancy Bradford-Reid)>
>>>Farspeaker list/Domesdaylist/whatever you call it.
>>>         In period, it was often a common thing to keep lists of the populace
>>>         in a village/ward/town etc, in order to determine who was elegable to
>>>         vote where, who hadn't served in offices, who lived where.
>>*****And, I believe, Domesday Boke was the proper term for it.*******
>
>I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall that the "Domesday Boke" was
>a specific compilation, published once (in 1089 or something) and had
>more in common with the national census than it did with the telephone
>directory.

True, however, it's still a good enough period name, and the one we
(personally) have is used for many more things than getting phone numbers,
but that's beside the point.
>
>The question is, why do we call them by these silly jargon terms?

Many of them come down to us from the earliest days of the SCA.



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg            Page 26 of 78
"Autocrat," for instance. I believe it was Marion Zimmer Bradley's brother
(someone correct me, if I'm wrong on the name) was filling out a form to
reserve a park for the second ever SCA event and was asked for his "title"
in the organization and he put "autocrat." Many of the cutesie terms like
dragon, farspeaker, troll, elf (for answering machine), smalls, etc. come
from a time when the SCA was much more fantasy oriented than it is now.
Many of the older names in the SCA would never get past local heralds, let
alone Laurel, now days.

Catherine

Nan Bradford-Reid        |HL Catherine Harwell, CIM, AST
The Department of English|Barony of Bryn Gwlad, Kingdom of Ansteorra
The University of Texas |~Simplicitas sum Venustas~
512-471-4991             |Argent, on a fret vert, a rose gules,
n.b-reid at mail.utexas.edu |barbed and seeded or.


From: ansteorra at eden.com (7/16/95)
To: ansteorra at eden.com
RE>Ideal event

Pug cites the definition of "knight" from Webster's, and then writes:

> This clearly shows that the SCA's usage of the word Knight is just fine, but
> to replace it, we could use other terms. Personally I prefer Fighter or
> Warrior over Soldier or Man-at-arms.

However, there are only very rare cases where non-knights were
permitted to compete in tournaments in the Middle Ages. Certainly,
you wouldn't want to restrict non-Chivalry to competing only in
"war"-type events.

This is one of those things that got messed up in the early years of
the Society. In the first several tourneys, there were very few
entrants who were not referred to as "knights" or "Sir X".   Those
elevated to the Peerage at Twelfth Night, AS II (about 14 or so)
comprised about 1/3 of the people who had regularly competed at that
point (remember, we're only talking about a half-dozen or so tourneys
at this time), and were made "Knights of the Laurel", according the
the text used. This would be consistent with medieval practice, where
nobles who were _already_ knights (small "k") might be inducted into
an exclusive royal order of knighthood and become "Knights" (capital
"K") of that order. Unfortunately, this distinction was lost early
on, so that _only_ members of what soon became known as the "Order of
Chivalry" could use the titles "knight" and "sir".

If we were to try to be more accurate to medieval practice, _any_
authorized fighter could call themselves a "knight" (small "k"), and
use the form "Sir X", and the Knights of the Order of Chivalry, as
Peers of the Realm, would be more appropriately styled "Baron" (if we
use a primarily English model).

Mikjal Annarbjorn
--
Michael A. Chance          St. Louis, Missouri, USA    "At play in the fields
Work: mc307a at sw1stc.sbc.com                             of St. Vidicon"
Play: mchance at crl.com


From: mittle at panix.com (Josh Mittleman)



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg           Page 27 of 78
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Sir vs. Master
Date: 22 Dec 1995 11:01:10 -0500
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

Greetings from Arval!   Ioseph Lockesley wrote:

> Good question.....especially since the unadorned chain is a reserved badge
> (according to the CoA) of a knight in the SCA.

A plain chain is reserved to knights only by custom, and that custom varies
from one place to another. Chains of fealty are worn in various places by
squires, by other peers in fealty, etc.

Wilhelm von Schuessel, as Laurel King of Arms, attempted to protect some
Society-wide insignia by registering them as badges. One of the badges he
registered is "A circular chain", registered to the Society as a whole as a
badge for the Order of Knighthood.

There are two problems, however, with interpretting this registration as
restricting the wearing of plain chains to knights.

First, Wilhelm had no formal authority to regulate regalia. The Board did
not grant that authority to Laurel until a few years ago. It may have been
generally assumed that Laurel had that authority in Wilhelm's day, but the
Board had never confirmed it.

Second, the registration of a badge quite definitely does _not_ restrict
the use of the object depicted in the badge. It only reserves the right to
the badge itself, as an armorial insignia. If I were able to register the
badge "A sword palewise argent", I could not demand that my opponents in
combat cease to hold their swords in a vertical position. Nor could I
demand that artists stop painting vertical swords in their illuminations.
A badge is a picture of an object, and only in certain contexts. A closed
loop of chain is not the same as the badge "A circular chain".

The badge registration only restricts the use of a picture of "A circular
chain" in contexts in which that picture would be interpretted as a badge.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord                                         mittle at panix.com


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Fantasy has no place in it
Date: 20 Dec 1995 17:46:46 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

In article <bjm10-2012951241390001 at potato.cit.cornell.edu>,
Bryan J. Maloney <bjm10 at cornell.edu> wrote:
>
>> One of the society's founders was Ursula K. LeQuinn, a fantasy writer,

No, no. Ursula K. LeGuin (note spelling--perhaps you were
thinking of her mother, Theodora Kroeber-Quinn?) has never been
involved in the SCA that I know of. I think you meant to say
Marion Zimmer Bradley (Mistress Elfreida of Greenwalls), who in
the Year 1 went to the Parks Department to reserve a field for
the second tournament and was confronted by a form asking, "Name
of Organization:" (Name? We have a name? We have an
organization?) and made up "Society for Creative Anachronism" on



Edited by Mark S. Harris            SCA-hist3-msg          Page 28 of 78
the spot.

>> and from the beginning the SCA was organized for the "Creative" enjoyment
>> of medieval society. It was never intended to be a re-enactment group.

We never INTENDED *any*thing. We never expected that this thing
would go into 30+ years and become some people's only social
activity and others' livelihood. Goodness knows what we would
have done if we did.

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin            Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West              UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable       djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu
PRO DEO ET REGE


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: sirjon at netcom.com (John Edgerton)
Subject: Re: Freon helmets
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 22:17:48 GMT

Edwin L. Hewitt (brogoose at pe.net) wrote:
: I have worn freon can helmets. They were banned. They should stay
: that way. Freon cans were two lightweight, and caved in easily,
: they were ugly, and never fit the head anyway. To make it stand up
: to the punishment of combat, you needed several pounds of reinforcement.
: This made it heavy, ugly and ill fitting.

: It really is easier to make a period barrel helm from scratch, than to
: retro a freon can. Leave freon cans to the 20th century.

Just a passing note.

The original freon drum helms would not cave in easily. They would turn
a railroad spike hammer or a 32 cal. slug. One of them was in use for
about 25 years, first as a fighting helm then as a loaner for a ongoing
fighter practice with very little damage to the helm, thought the bars
did get bent. They may not have been good looking, but they were not weak.

Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf.     West, Mists, Esfenn


Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 09:48:36 -0600
From: mfgunter at tddcae99.tddeng00.fnts.com (Michael F. Gunter)
To: ansteorra at eden.com
Subject: Ducal perogative

From what I remember, Ducal perogative started out in the dim past in, I
believe, the Middle Kingdom. Seems there was a rule that one of the duties of
Knighthood was the obligation to fight in Crown unless granted an excuse by the
current Majesties. The idea came up that Dukes had served their Kingdom
sufficiently so that they did not have to fight if they didn't wish to without
having to gain the Crown's permission.

I'm not sure if this is the total and true origins but this is what I have
heard.

Gunthar


To: ansteorra at eden.com



Edited by Mark S. Harris              SCA-hist3-msg        Page 29 of 78
Subject: Re: Ducal perogative
From: robertwestmar at juno.com (R o W)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 17:57:56 EST

>From what I remember, Ducal perogative started out in the dim past
>in, I believe, the Middle Kingdom. <snip>
>
>Gunthar

I believe it comes from an even dimmer past in the West Kingdom.      A
time of single-elimination tourneys where all Knights had a RIGHT to
fight in Crown & unbelts were invited in a couple at a time to fill out
the list.    I remember the thrill the first time I was chosen by the
King.   Dukes could enter with no intent to win & withdraw at any time
(Ducal Perogative).    It was explained to me that thus a Duke could save
the Kingdom from the vagaries of mischance should a superjock mundane
join & come close to the winning of a Crown which he would not value and
would abuse.    I saw several instances of Dukes, who I knew well, staying
in a List just long enough to take out a particular fighter. (OF COURSE
this was misused!).    Perhaps there is a Dinosaur lurking who has a
different take on the reasoning.    I only know what the Great Ones told
me.

 Sir Robert


Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 19:52:07 -0800
From: Galen of Bristol <pmitchel at flash.net>
Organization: Incipient College of Three Bridges
To: ansteorra at eden.com
Subject: Re: ducal perogative

dentim at mail.myriad.net wrote:
>Some postings on the Aten list raised a few questions which I am curious about.
> What is Ducal perogative? I've heard a few things like being able to enter
> crown list at *any* time, being able to enter court w/o previous permission,
> etc. Are these true? Do customs vary from kingdom to kingdom? What other
> privlages to those of royal rank have?
>
> timo

Duke Siegfried von Hoeflichkeit, of the West Kingdom, and one of
the founders of the SCA, explained it to me that there was a
tradition, which some of us still observe, that knights were
obligated to enter the Crown List. I believe that the idea
of this is that anyone winning the Crown should have had
to defeat first-class opponents to do so. Dukes, however,
were exempt from this obligation. This was the origin of
Ducal Prerogative. Siegfried told me that in Atenveldt, this
evolved into a right to withdraw from the list at any time,
which is what we have in Ansteorra now.

It does get abused. Also, I recall one occasion when a Count
simply walked off the field, just as if he were exercising
Ducal Prerogative. "You can't do that," the King told him.
"I just did," the Count replied. The effect of a forfeit is
indistinguishable from the effect of a Duke exercising his
Prerogative.

I think that knights are obligated by tradition to enter the
Crown List if they can; and as Crystal pointed out, that includes



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg           Page 30 of 78
the Sword Oath, so they need to be able to take that oath.

If you are ready, willing and able to be King, I see nothing
wrong with entering Crown, even if your chance of winning is
negligible.

But I don't approve of any circumstance that enables someone who
is not trying to win to eliminate someone who is trying to win;
that includes destructive byes as well as Ducal Prerogative.
--
Viscount Galen of Bristol, KSCA, CSM, etc.
Paul Mitchell, pmitchel at flash.net / "noblesse oblige"


Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 10:04:56 -0800
From: Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu>
To: markh at risc.sps.mot.com
Subject: Time Travel

Hi, Stefan.   A couple of days ago you said,

> Was the Henrik and Nora episode a real event? Did it really have an
> effect on having women fighters in the SCA?

Oh yes, it was. It was something like the Fall 1966 tourney, in
Cragmont Park. I was there. This young woman named Nora came
along in her natty whites, with a fencing foil and an attitude.
She thought we were all a bunch of dingbats and challenged us
to fight like *real* (i.e., wire) swordsmen. Specifically, she
challenged Henrik of Havn, who was the best fighter we had in
those days, and she fought with her foil and he fought with his
wooden sword (don't think we had rattan yet) and he trounced her,
and although he wasn't *trying* to hurt her he must've left a
couple of bruises. And she burst into tears and wailed, "You
shouldn't hit me, I'm a girl!" Whereupon all the male fighters
said, "She's right, knights shouldn't hit ladies, we'd better
make a ruling that ladies shouldn't fight." And so it was for
several years until Trude Lacklandia came along and hit them
on two different fronts: doing research on women who had fought
in period, and training (in secret) till she was good enough to
show them in real life.

The followup is that a few years ago I mentioned this episode to
Count Geoffrey of Griffinhold, who does a certain amount of
fencing though not in the SCA. He said, "Oh, yeah, Nora, I know
who that is." He seemed to think the incident was perfectly in
character for her. Seems she has just retired from a long career
in fencing (I don't recall whether professional or amateur or
both) and Geoffrey, for one, did not appear sorry to see her go.

> What is this about "associated guilds"? And them dying back in AS single
> digits?

The Associated Guild[e]s were founded in about AS 2 or 3 by
Baroness Geraldine of Toad Hall. They were supposed to support,
teach, and practice the various crafts. They faded away and
died through lack of interest. In a slightly different Society,
where you couldn't "get a Laurel" just for being good at your art
or craft, maybe they would've lingered longer. Maybe not. But
in a slightly different Society, where we were trying to
approximate the difference between the nobility and the middle



Edited by Mark S. Harris            SCA-hist3-msg            Page 31 of 78
class, they would've helped with the authenticity thing.    IF
they'd survived.

>   As for "though the spurs are a more appropriate symbol for
>   them; but they're more expensive, harder to find, and tend to gash
>   one's neighbors in the foot.....", I think the first two proably
>   would be solved by the SCA craftsmen and merchants.

Yes, eventually. But what do you do when it's alternate-1967 and
you're just starting out? We didn't have any SCA merchants and
damn few craftsmen, particularly in metal, which requires a certain
number of tools and somewhere to work and a bit of money. We had
one Master Machinist with a home workshop and the rest of us were
college students. It would've been very difficult to *start*
with spurs as the symbol of knighthood, and expecting about ten
guys to buy pairs. Or asking Beverly Hodghead to make about ten
pairs, when he was busy with other projects (making the Ancient
and Honourable Crowns of the West, for instance--not the set we
have now; the original pair, made of copper and fiendishly
uncomfortable).

> I don't see "mundanes" and "medievals" as being any better than
> "clothes" and "garb". Niether pair is medieval.

Come to that, it isn't medieval to realize that there are two
styles of clothing for two different historical periods. Perhaps
we could've arranged that when you were in the Current Middle
Ages you said "clothes" of your medieval clothing and didn't
mention your 20th century clothing at all; and when you were in
20th-century mode it didn't matter what you said--except that I
would still try to discourage calling your medieval clothing
"costuming."

"Medievals" isn't medieval because "medieval" isn't medieval;
it's Renaissance. "Mundanes," however, is simply the plural of an
adjective used as a noun, and can be translated "worldly things"
where "world" is "secular human society," particularly when
you're dwelling on all that is wrong with it. A very medieval
concept. I think I could make a case for using "mundanes" as a
modern-English-language translation of a medieval concept, as
when Abbess Hilda urged Caedmon to put off worldhood and put
on monkhood.

> Either pair is better than "troll", "farspeaker", "dragon" and "eric".

Well, though in the West we use "eric" in memory of the original
Lists marker, Eric the Red, which is still in the living memory
of several of our citizens, we don't use "troll" or "dragon"
[except when a plane flies overhead and we call for the archers],
at all and "farspeaker" never caught on.

If I had it to do all over again (which is what this has been all
about), I might look for a suitable opportunity (like, when the
Yellow Peril first came on the scene and the Peril was still
yellow and the Eric was still red) to say, "Hey, I just found out
the proper word for the fighting field is the Lists." Or I might
not, having enough history-changing on my plate already.

It's all in what you're accustomed to--and as long as we go to our
events speaking to each other in Modern English, we're going to have
to diverge here and there from proper medieval usage in order to



Edited by Mark S. Harris             SCA-hist3-msg           Page 32 of 78
understand each other--otherwise, in place of "garb" (Victorian)
or "clothes" (modern) or "medievals" (Latinate), I would suggest
we say "weeds" (Old and Middle English).

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin            Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West                    Albany, California
PRO DEO ET REGE                     djheydt at uclink


Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:30:27 -0700
To: ansteorra at eden.com
From: Lee Forgue <eilis at haas.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: Badges and Terms

At 06:19 PM 6/18/97 -0500, Joel Schumacher wrote:
>First off, I'm supposed to know that this "chiurgeon" sign I've passed by
>several times (while looking for "first aid") is what I need.
    <much snippage>
>Why not the universally recognized red cross? (Especially for something as
>serious as first aid).

The first badge registered for the Chirurgeons (which featured a red cross)
was withdrawn and redesigned after it was pointed out that it was almost
identical to the badge of a "?Grand Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan?" (not sure
of the exact title).

The second badge for the Chirurgeons also featured a red cross, and was
withdrawn after it was discovered that the Red Cross International was
vehement about pursuing trademark infringement (and had become aware of our
use of something resembling their symbol when an SCA chirurgeon who also
worked in a medical capacity wore SCA regalia to an international Red Cross
conference -- we were asked to stop using the Red Cross at that time).

The third badge is the one we currently use -- the upside down "2" is a
fleam, a period surgical bloodletting instrument.

 --- eilis o'boirne (not a chirurgeon, but a herald for way too long!)


Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 21:47:33 -0400
From: "David B. Appleton" <DavidAppleton at compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Badges and Terms
To: Tim McDaniel <tmcd at crl.com>, "[unknown]" <ansteorra at eden.com>

>On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, dennis grace <amazing at mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
>> Nah. Not a "good reason" at all. Of course the Red Cross isn't a
>> trademark. If it were, the Geneva Convention couldn't have required
>> that it be used as one of the four accepted DO NOT
>> BOMB--HUMANITARIAN AID STATION symbols.
...
>> This is yet another example of our heralds being overly sensitive to
>> the claims of outsiders.

>What I heard at the time is that there is an international treaty
>concerning use of a red cross ("couped": arms truncated, not like the
>ensign of England). That report provoked an unusual amount of
>sensitivity -- courtesy is one issue, but treaties even trump federal
>laws.

"The badge conflicts with the insignia of the International Red Cross, not
by _our_ rules, but by _theirs_. As stated in Corpora Appendix A, the



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg           Page 33 of 78
Society recognizes the absolute precedence of law issued by civil
authorities over any of its internal rules.' International treaty severely
restricts the use of a cross couped gules, and this takes precedence over
_any_ of the Rules for Submission, including those for difference, of the
SCA." LoAR February 1992, p. 32.

"[T]he use of a cross couped gules should probably no longer be allowed in
SCA heraldry because of the international treaties and federal law which
protect that charge and restrict its use to the International Red Cross
(and as a trademark to those who were using it before those treaties went
into effect)." (LoAR May 1992, p. 30)

>> Boy scouts use the red cross on their merit badges.   First aid kits
>> are labeled with red crosses.

Only first aid kits by those companies who were using a red cross on a
white field _before_ the treaty was signed. Johnson & Johnson is one of
those companies, so they use the red cross emblem. Johnny Come Latelies
have to either (a) use something else or (b) hope the American Red Cross
and/or International Red Cross doesn't catch them. The Boy Scouts may, as
a charitable organization, etc., etc., may have a special dispensation from
the IRC. You'd have to ask _them_ about that.

>I do recall seeing the latter, tho not recently (not that I've been
>looking). Those would be counterarguments.

>I'll CC this mail to Master Da'ud ibn Auda, who was Laurel King of
>Arms at least during part of this time.

Yeah, it was under my tenure that the SCA had to change the badge for the
Chirugeon (which had been changed once already because it looked like a KKK
badge). This came about because some SCA Chirurgeon in Drachenwald wore
their SCA chirurgeon's baldric to a Red Cross meeting. They were informed
in no uncertain terms that the display was not permissible. The Laurel
files should still have the copy of the relevant portions of the
international treaty restricting the use of the red cross to the IRC/ARC.

Not wanting to take the chance of the SCA being hauled before the
international court in The Hague, and also wishing to be "good neighbors",
the SCA voluntarily changed the Chirurgeon's badge.

Da'ud
74107.1446 at compuserve.com


Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 09:43:50 -0700
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG, ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
From: Lee Forgue <eilis at haas.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: ANST - SCA Trivia question

At 10:22 PM 8/25/97 -0500, Dieterich wrote:
>The information I have on HG Timothy is based on a conversation I had with
>the young duke at Estrella War two years ago. As I recall- but my memory
>has been known to fail- he used the words 'West', 'crown', and 'I'.... he
>may have meant 'out west', as in Caid being on the west coast, but that
>wasn't the impression I got. The right person to ask is probably my knight,
>his former squire brother. I suspect he'll know, but if there are any
>Westies listening out there in cyberland they'll most likely tell us sooner
>than I can ask.

Timothy has never been King of the West, just Caid and the East.



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg             Page 34 of 78
Christopher of Houghton, if I recall correctly, has West, Atenveldt,
Outlands. There are several other twos -- Cariadoc of the Bow (Middle and
East), Frederick of Holland (East and West), Ronald Wilmot (West and East),
and the aforementioned Christopher achieved this by moving from one place
to another, and there are several people who stayed in one place and
reigned twice while the Kingdoms changed around them.

 --- eilis o'boirne, Western lurker


Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 22:05:35 -0500
To: fionn at nwlink.com (Jeff Carnegie), ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
From: Burke McCrory <burkemc at ionet.net>
Subject: ANST - Re: Some SCA History...

>        I need some help. What I need to know is the first four or five
>baronial level groups (read Barony or Province) of each kingdom. What I've
>got I list below. Anyone who can provide more info would greatly endear
>themselves to me. Dates would be great too. Also, as this is the only SCA
>list I'm on, if someone could forward this to other SCA lists, I'd greatly
>appreciate it.
>
>East: Ostgardr, Carolingia, Beyond the Mtn., Bhakail, Bridge
>AEthelmearc: Debateable Lands, Thescorre, Rydderich Hael, ?
>Trimaris: Wyvernwood, An Crosaire, Darkwater
>Middle: Tree Girt Sea, Northwoods, Middle Marches, ?, ?
>An Tir: Madrone, Three Mountains, Lion's Gate, Adiantum
>Atenveldt: Atenveldt, Tir Ysgirth, Sun Dragon, Mons Tonitrus, Twin Moons,
>Meridies: Iron Mountain, Axemoor, South Downs, ?
>Outlands: Caerthe, al-Barran, Dragonspire, Southern Pass
>Artemesia: Loch Salann, One Thousand Eyes, Sentinel's Keep, Arn Hold
>West, Ansteorra, Caid, Calontir, Drachenwald, Atlantia: ????
>
>I'm also uncertain on what to consider Myrkfaelinn in particualar, shire or
>barony level. While I don't want to start a huge discussion, someone tell me
>if it has the population base of a baronial size group and if it is commonly
>considered on a level with Baronies and Provinces. My impression was that it
>is, but I'd like to hear from some of the Dominions own residents.
>
>Jeff Carnegie / Fionn MacAilein
>fionn at nwlink.com

Ansteorra would be;

Stargate (Houston, Tx) Founded August 1972 Baronial August 1972
Steppes (Dallas, Tx) Founded March 1973 Baronial August 1975
Bjornsborg (San Antonio, Tx) Founded June 1976 Baronial November 1976
Bordermarch (Beaumont/Port Arthur, Tx) Founded Febuary 1977 Baronial
September 1977
Bryn Gwlad (Austin, Tx) Founded November 1976 Baronial May 1979
Namron (Norman, Ok) Founded Febuary 1977 Baronial November 1979

Sir Burke Kyriell MacDonald
Deputy Kingdom Seneschal for Ansteorra
E-Mail: burkemc at ionet.net


Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:44:56 -0700 (MST)
From: Mary Morman <memorman at oldcolo.com>
Subject: SC - Master Beverly - In Memorium




Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg           Page 35 of 78
The news came today that Master Beverly had died. To many, it marks
an era of passage in the SCA - the founders are passing one by one
and their loss changes us all. But to me, it is a very personal
passage. Master Beverly held a special place in my SCA life,
and I would like to take a few moments to try to share some of that
specialness with my friends in the SCA.

I met Master Beverly when I was 22. I had been involved in the SCA at
various levels for about six years at that time. It was the
summer of 1975, and I was 're-entering' West Kingdom activities after two
years in Montana where there was no SCA.

It's hard to describe the SCA of those years to people who have only seen
its 90's (or even 80's) incarnation. This was the era when Queen Carol
told us to make tourney clothes out of polyester double knit because it
washed easily and draped so well. It was a time when, to me, the SCA
meant fighters, and fighting, and watching tournaments. I had never seen
SCA dancing - although I had heard of it, had never even heard of a
'period' recipe (the West didn't do feasts in those days), and the only
reason I didn't bring potato salad to Crown to eat with my fried chicken
was that I was afraid the eggs would spoil in the heat.

I met Master Beverly at a Crown Tournament at Big Trees Park in the
hills up above Berkeley. He seemed elderly to me, even then. But he
found time to talk to a relative newcomer. We sat and walked and talked
most of the afternoon. Naturally, we started by talking about the
fighting. Fighting was what the SCA was all about. He told me that he
was a Laurel. I'd never met a Laurel before and wasn't really sure what
it meant. "I think they made it up to make me feel better since I didn't
fight." I can still hear him saying that - the amusement, and a little
self-deprecation, clear in his voice.

In truth, he was the first Laurel of the Society. And when
I sometimes see the SCA loosing perspective about awards and rank and
honors, I remember Master Beverly and hear his chuckling voice telling me
that 'they' made up the Laurel so that an old man who didn't fight could
still feel appreciated.

The reason why meeting Master Beverly was so very important to me was that
it marked a turning point for me in the SCA. From perceiving the SCA as,
quite naturally, a group for fighters and their girlfriends, I began, with
his help and a few introductions, to see it as a place where any
interested person could work to create some aspect of the middle ages. I
began to notice things like tents (he was, after all, Master Beverly
Tentmaker...) and how some looked like the pavillions in an illuminated
manuscript and some looked like army surplus. I noticed a lady with a
chemise made from some loosely woven white fabric rather than the
prevalent and useful doubleknit. I began to ask -why- we couldn't cook a
medieval feast rather than take a break for fast food at 12th night and or
have a restaurant banquet after a University of Ithra session.

I wonder sometimes what my life in the SCA would have been if I had not
met Master Beverly that hot summer day. Would I have begun to notice a
'wider' society on my own? Would I have grown out of the
'all-fighters-together' society and moved on to join a bridge club like my
mother expected me to? All I really know, though, is that this
knowledgable, gifted, and delightful man helped to open my eyes to a
brighter and broader SCA - one in which I am still active almost 25 years
later.

And if I'm ever tempted to think that I'm "too old" for the SCA, all I



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg           Page 36 of 78
need to do is remember that Master Beverly was older than I am now when
he attended the First Tournament in Berkeley in 1966. And every time I
watch a new Laurel made I remember his subtle but enduring influence.

He was a wonderful person. I will always miss him.

Elaina


Subject: ANST - [Fwd: Mistress/Baroness]
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 98 06:12:08 MST
From: Donal & Sosha <catsden at texas.net>
To: Anstie List <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

This is just too funny to confine to the heralds' list. For those who
are wondering, Karina was very, very early in the Laurel Sovereign of
Arms lineup. Alphabet soup, anyone?
Donal

Julien de Montfort wrote:
> > His Majesty has an idea: he wants people with Awards and Grants of
> > Arms [to] be able to put initials indicating as much after their
> > names, and commands us to devise some. We suggest either A.A. and
> > G.A., or preferably Arm. A. and Arm. G. [Irreverent footnote:
> > Actually, we prefer neither one and think it's a terrible idea, but
> > we will announce these and that should satisfy him. It isn't as if
> > anyone is going to use them.] (Karina of the Far West, 15 Jul 73
> > [42], p. 3)
>
> Hee hee.... priceless. ;-)
>
> Julien
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Seigneur Julien de Montfort                  De sable, seme d'hermines
> "Solum Dice Nullus Sunt Suficio"             d'or, tres amphorae et un
> Canton de Spiaggia Levantina                     caid palissade argent
> julien at spiaggia.org                            http://www.spiaggia.org
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:15:41 -0800
From: Kenneth J Mayer <domus at juno.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Middle Eastern Personas

>If there is such a bias against Middle Eastern personas, I am unaware of it.
>There seems to be bias against Aztec, Amer-Ind and Japanese personas though
>this is somewhat justified if a purists view is held but questionable when
>viewed in the light of the writings of early framers of SCA policy. .

'scuse me? I am directly in touch with many of the original founders of
the SCA, as I am working on a project ("The Annotated History of the
West") ... the whole POINT of the SCA in the early days was to re-create
the atmosphere put forth in the tales of Camelot, Arthur, etc ... Aztecs,
Amerinds, Japanese have nothing to do with this ...

Hirsch


Subject: ANST - Re: ASTR - SCA - 35 year ???
Date: Mon, 03 May 99 09:56:28 MST



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg           Page 37 of 78
From: marsha.greene at mpan.com
To: Ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

>Should the SCA plan to have a 35 year celebration or should the SCA only
>hold one every 10 years with 25 and 75 being special cases?

My initial reaction was to vote for every 10 years, but believe I would
support every 5 years instead.        Baron Michael had some good points.
I would suggest that if the attendance of the event continues to grow each
of the 5 years, then *that* is your populace vote,... by the attendance.
('If you *hold* it, they will come!')

I was not in the SCA for the 20 yr. event, but was at 25yr. I did not
attend 30yr.in AnTir, but if 35 is a bit closer, then I may go.   So, for
me, I may establish a pattern of *attending* every 10 years, even though
the event is held every 5years.

As to the comment about the attendance being a bit less at 25th year than
at 20th year, Yes, that may be true.   I was a part of the committee that
ran that 25th year event (Waterbearer Coordinator), and from what I recall,
we were anticipating an attendance around 3000-4000 attendees. I believe
we had around 2000 attendees, instead.   This drop in attendance was not
due to the event, or the location or the staff; but to a little *real* war
known as 'Gulf Wars' in the Persian Gulf.   A week before TFYC (25th),
national military had been put on readiness status, and while they were
still in the States, many SCA folks in military choose to stay close to
home rather than come to 25th year. There were a few die-hards who did
come to the Celebration, and were called up in the middle of the event, had
to fly out on the earliest plane, and their friends had to pack up all
their gear and transport it home.    So, I believe the attendance at 25th
year would have surpased 20th year, had not REAL LIFE taken priority.

If the SCA wants to hold a 35yr Celebration, they are already dangerously
close to being too late to put it together.

Bn. Hillary Greenslade     Westgate/Stargate


Subject: Re: Female Knights (fwd)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 05:59:24 EDT
From: JBRMM266 at aol.com
To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org

In a message dated 99-07-01 11:12:04 EDT, Lyanna writes:
<< Now, interestingly enough, as I have heard it, and please correct me if I'm
 wrong but Way Back When - the SCA banned women from fighting at events (they
 could fight at practice though) because historically women didn't fight in
 tournaments. This was challenged by Trude (soon to be Sir Trude) who
 researched the issue and found an example of two women who participated in a
 tournament as women (as opposed to chose who disguised themselves in men's
 clothing). The BoD lifted the ban and she was able to fight at events. >>

That is part of the story; the other part was that the SCA, being an
educational organization, might have lost its tax-exempt status had we
continued to practice gender discrimination.

Donal Mac Ruiseart
(who was around when the changes took place)


Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 15:05:02 -0700



Edited by Mark S. Harris             SCA-hist3-msg         Page 38 of 78
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at efn.org>
Subject: Re: SC - scadianisms

Huette von Ahrens wrote:
> Actually, it is more than a West Kingdom thing. Caid
> also calls its list ropes "eric". But then we used to
> be part of the West a long time ago.

We call it the 'Eric' in An Tir also, which surprises   me somewhat, here
is the land of "Don't tell us what/how to do it, even   if you have been
doing it successfully that way for over thirty years!   Let us make our
own mistakes!" An Tir, the sullen adolescent child of   the West...

'Lainie


Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 20:44:56 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - A different kind of historical recreation

Lurking Girl wrote:
> For my cooking class, I have been assigned to do a menu which is partially
> based on SCA cooking technology of 20 years ago. Since the only kitchen
> I was allowed to use at that time was in Barbie's Dream Home, my teacher
> said I should ask people who were around then. (Unfortunately, those
> I've asked so far don't seem to really notice what they eat at events...)
>
> So--can anyone tell me what might have been served at a typical feast
> in ASXIII? What were the sources everyone was using? And what was
> considered bleeding-edge experimentation?

I've only been around for about 18 years. I'm not sure if my experiences
of that time reflect practice of the two years prior.

Sources would include "To the King's Taste", "To The Queen's Taste",
"The Delectable Past", "700 Years of English Cooking", and, of course,
Fab Feasts. I think earlier versions of Cariadoc's Miscellany existed at
the time, and I think I remember seeing some recipes in The Knowne
Worlde Handbook.

As I recall, ladies, at least in Ostgardr, tended to do more research
than the male cooks. A typical guy feast might include roast beef,
possibly with a sauce, a more or less modern onion soup, a bulgur
frumenty dish, bread, cheese, honey and/or herb butter, a salad,
possibly a simple sweet like shortbread or some kind of custard tart.

Feasts planned by the ladies tended to have a bit more recognizable
medieval food. Lots of crustades, darioles, doucetys, etc., various
chicken stews cooked with fruit, a mandatory sauce for the ubiquitous
roast beef (cameline or perhaps mustard being standard issue, I'd say),
cheese goo, loseyns or macrows with butter and cheese, pork and fruit
pies, saffron bread, mustard soup as bastardized in The Delectable Past,
or maybe a split-pea version of cretonnee. Let's not forget Chicken In A
Rock, a.k.a. Icelandic Chicken, various Elizabethan and post-Elizabethan
raisin-cookie-type cakes, and wafers served with whipped cream.

I'd say that the idea of doing foods from the same time period and
location, say, 15th-century Savoy, was pretty rare; a more Generic
Middle Ages (with the odd 16th-17th century dish thrown in for good
measure) was, I think, more common in our area.




Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg              Page 39 of 78
Adamantius


Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 18:24:20 -0800
From: "Wanda Pease" <wandapease at bigfoot.com>
Subject: RE: SC - A different kind of historical recreation

>   So--can anyone tell me what might have been served at a typical feast
>   in ASXIII? What were the sources everyone was using? And what was
>   considered bleeding-edge experimentation?
>
>   Vika

Err... swallowing hard... Fabulous Feasts, How to Cook Forsoothly,To the
Kings Taste and to the Queen's Taste, Loaves and Fishes, foods from Biblical
Times and The Delectable Past for sources. Roast Cornish Game hen (hey,
they were cheap and the butcher would cut them in half), Leek soup done with
crushed lasagna noodles instead of potatoes, quiche, roast venison (three
red deer donated by the local Baron of Lauterbach (real, and German), Barley
Pilaf, mushrooms stuffed with chopped meat and herbs, carrot sticks, rolls.
Gee, that doesn't seem like it would take four solid days preparation and
cooking and no sleep... must have been more than that, but the memory goes
after the first 72 hours, and it was almost exactly 20 years.

Regina Romsey, 5th Viscountess Drachenwald


Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:29:12 -0700 (MST)
From: Mary Morman <memorman at oldcolo.com>
Subject: Re: SC - A different kind of historical recreation

>   So--can anyone tell me what might have been served at a typical feast
>   in ASXIII? What were the sources everyone was using? And what was
>   considered bleeding-edge experimentation?
>
>   Vika

In A.S. XII-XIII I moved from the West (where we did not do feasts) to
Caid (where we did picnics and banquets in restaurants) to the
East/Atlantia where I first met actual SCA feasting. There were very few
sources available. The only one I actually remember holding in my hand
was a very early edition of Cariadoc's Renaissance Cookbook Collection.
Food was generally "perioid" rather than what I would now call period.
Roast meat, avoid potatoes and tomatoes, good home brewed mead and beer,
honey saffron quiche, savory toasted cheese, hearty soups and stews with
meat and carrots and barley.

Elaina


Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:39:12 -0600
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - A different kind of historical recreation

At 4:59 PM -0500 11/8/99, Lurking Girl wrote:
>So--can anyone tell me what might have been served at a typical feast
>in ASXIII? What were the sources everyone was using? And what was
>considered bleeding-edge experimentation?

I can't speak to typical feasts, but I and some other people were
working from _Two Fifteenth Century Cookbooks_, _Al-Baghdadi_,



Edited by Mark S. Harris             SCA-hist3-msg            Page 40 of 78
_Digby_, Le Menagier, Platina. I'm pretty sure that volume I of my
collection came out earlier than that. I don't think we had any
period German cookbooks, and the Andalusian and Ibn al Mubarrad
hadn't been translated into English yet. By AS XIII I would have
been doing feasts from primary sources for about seven years or so;
I'm not sure if anyone else was doing them earlier than that.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/


Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 22:52:08 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - A different kind of historical recreation

tori at panix.com writes:
<< So--can anyone tell me what might have been served at a typical feast
 in ASXIII? >>

Most modern food that did not include glaring examples of New World food such
as vanilla although potato were served often and tomatoes not infrequently. I
don;t think that too many folks even considered doing authentic period feasts
then although there were people such as His Grace Cariadoc, among others,
boldly doing research and study in the area.

<< What were the sources everyone was using? >>

The hideous Fabulous Feasts and Vehling's Apicius seem to be the 2 sources
that I have heard most often mentioned as a source of receipts.

 <<And what was considered bleeding-edge experimentation?

IMO, roast beef, homemade bread and Carrots Apicius. Hard to believe we have
come so far.

<< Thanks much,
 Vika >>

No problem. I am somewhat amused that the recreationists are already
'recreating' the early years of the SCA in whatever form. Could carpet armor
and Freon helmets be next? :-)

Yours in Service to the Dream and the Kingdom of Aethelmearc,
Ras


Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:56:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: SC - A different kind of historical recreation

Elaina,

What part of Caid did you live in? Because I was doing
feasts back then and the only banquets in restaurants
that I can remember were in Nordwache
(Fresno/Bakersfield area). I was doing period
banquets in quite a few church halls in Angels (San
Gabriel Valley). Lyondemere (coastal areas of Los
Angeles) put on many period banquets. Califia (San Diego) also
put on many period banquets.




Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg              Page 41 of 78
Yes, I have to admit the Fab Feasts was my first
period cookbook. But I soon abandoned it when I was
given Kings Taste and Queens Taste. They were soon followed
by Dining with William Shakespeare and Pleyn Delit.
My first banquets were take from these last four books.
It wasn't until Duke Cariadoc moved to Caid that I was
exposed to the originals and the concept of actually
redacting my own recipes, for which I will be
eternally grateful to him.

Huette


Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:55:00 -0600
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - A different kind of historical recreation

At 8:44 PM -0500 11/8/99, Philip & Susan Troy wrote:
>Sources would include "To the King's Taste", "To The Queen's Taste",
>"The Delectable Past", "700 Years of English Cooking", and, of course,
>Fab Feasts. I think earlier versions of Cariadoc's Miscellany existed at
>the time, and I think I remember seeing some recipes in The Knowne
>Worlde Handbook.

I believe the _Miscellany_ was first sold at the twentieth year
celebration. My cookbook collection appeared considerably earlier,
however, so a fair number of primary sources were available to people
who had it. So far as cooks in the East are concerned, I think that
by the date in question Melisande, Brekke, Marion of Edwinstowe,
Bish, Diana, and probably a number of other people as well, were
doing at least some cooking from primary sources.

I'm not sure when the Knowne Worlde Handbook came out, but the
article on cooking in it was quite unreliable--it didn't give
sources, and it looked as though many of the recipes were modern
ethnic cooking.

David Friedman
Professor of Law
Santa Clara University


Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 22:13:31 -0700 (MST)
From: Mary Morman <memorman at oldcolo.com>
Subject: Re: SC - A different kind of historical recreation

I should have made it clear that I merely passed through Caid (one year in
Darachshire) between the West and the East. I remember doing picnics in
Darach where the ladies made baskets of food that was then raffled off.
The one feast that I remember was after a University of Ithra. We had a
banquet in a restaurant where Ithra awards and degrees were given (I got
two separate thirds of masters degrees for teaching two classes). I was
certainly not central to what was going on in the kingdom at that time -
it's great to hear that you were doing feasts then! Wish I had known.

Elaina


Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 09:51:02 -0800
From: Anne-Marie Rousseau <acrouss at gte.net>
Subject: Re: SC - A different kind of historical recreation



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg              Page 42 of 78
hey all from Anne-Marie
we are asked:
> So--can anyone tell me what might have been served at a typical feast
> in ASXIII? What were the sources everyone was using? And what was
> considered bleeding-edge experimentation?

the Madrone Culinary guild had been actively producing several whiz bang
banquets a year at that point (as far as we can tell, MCG is about 21 years
old). We still have complete records of them, as well as several members
who were around then. Shall I post the question to our list?

I know I've been here for about 1988, and we did a lot of perioide feasts,
ie modern ethnic omitting the tomatoes and potatoes. I remember the
"burgundian" red black and gold feast, the first one I did. All out of
"The Cuisnie of the Rose". yum! we also did a "new world" banquet where a
pasta paella type object was very popular, and we learned that aioli does
not expand quite right....:)

We have a cookbook we published from that era...its out of print, but you
can ask anyone in the guild to see it. I keep it as a neat historical
document.

- --AM, who has since seen the light and now follows the true path, but does
indeed miss the days of oiseaux faux aux pruneaux :)...


Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 00:57:06 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - A different kind of historical recreation

>   So--can anyone tell me what might have been served at a typical feast
>   in ASXIII? What were the sources everyone was using? And what was
>   considered bleeding-edge experimentation?
>
>   Vika

I didn't have any period sources available for my first feast, so I winged
it. Danish apple pies (not period not pies, but a crowd pleaser I haul out
every so often), pickled whiting, pickled eggs, peas, carrots, steamed
lettuce(probably period, but no original source), marinated beef, a couple
kinds of bread, and beer. The whiting and the lettuce were considered
risque.

I must have done something right, because a couple of Pennsic-bound fighters
from Caid wanted to take me home.

Later, I tossed in things from Pleyn Delight, To the King's Taste, To the
Queen's Taste and a set of hand written recipes cribbed from a number of
sources. I've never used my copy of Fabulous Feasts, but I found one in the
used bookstore and added it to the shelf.

Bear


Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 07:21:25 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - A different kind of historical recreation

"Decker, Terry D." wrote:
> I didn't have any period sources available for my first feast, so I winged



Edited by Mark S. Harris             SCA-hist3-msg            Page 43 of 78
>   it. Danish apple pies (not period not pies, but a crowd pleaser I haul out
>   every so often), pickled whiting, pickled eggs, peas, carrots, steamed
>   lettuce(probably period, but no original source), marinated beef, a couple
>   kinds of bread, and beer. The whiting and the lettuce were considered
>   risque.

Geez, I don't even remember for sure what I served at my first feast,
but it would have been almost exactly fourteen years ago (and <hahhah> I
also served as autocrat for that event; at least people knew where to
find me).

As I recall there was a creamy saffron-flavored soup from one of the
Michelle Berriedale-Johnston books, stewed steaks (supposed to be mutton
but actually beef in this case) in a broth with white wine and lemons,
from some vaguely late-period source, but I forget which, a modernish
spinach-egg-cheese pie, a salad, spatchcocked chickens broiled with
breadcrumbs, butter and mustard, supposed by Theodora FitzGibbon to be
16th-century Welsh, maybe a mushroom dish. Other stuff too, probably
between nine and twelve dishes overall.

My second feast was Apician, within six months of the first, as I recall...

Adamantius


Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:15:52 -0400
From: "Siegfried Heydrich" <baronsig at peganet.com>
Subject: Re: SC - RE:SC- Brizzare Hobby-NOT! OT

Akim wrote:
> I do know for a fact that the prestigious British College of Arms is very well
> acquainted with our work in heraldry and regards us very seriously. One of our
> senior heralds in Meridies was offered a job by the Lion King of Arms himself
> some years back.

And Kiri wrote:
> I can also add that the Norroy Ulster King of Arms actually attended a College
> of Arms symposium some years back as a guest of honor, and was quite
> complimentary of our work...I know 'cause I autocratted the event (I was
> Triton PH for Atlantia at the time).

    Yes, heraldically, at least, we seem to have a very good reputation,
especially after Da'aud decided that we were no longer going to protect the
entire universe of Armory, real and imagined. When I was Lymphad
(submissions) herald for Trimaris, I had some submissions returned for
conflicts with imaginary (and extremely obscure) Sci-fi/fantasy/D&D
characters. Needless to say, I was just a tad miffed. I sent out an open
letter questioning this (in my own inimitable style), and got leapt upon by
the entire College for daring to question the wisdom of the ancients.

    The gist of the arguments in favor of protecting everything, once you
got past the sophistries, was that in the UK, a SCAdian could be imprisoned
for simply displaying his SCA Arms. And that the SCA could be sued by said
imprisoned person for misleading them, etc. Therefore, to avoid this, we had
to be free of conflict with EVERYTHING. Yes, I know, but I'm just relaying
the argument.

    I then had the extreme bad manners to contact Norrey, Blue Mantle, and a
couple of other mundane heralds, inquiring of their policies regarding this
matter. I did NOT mention the SCA, and kept the description of the situation
rather generic. They were all kind enough to write back, saying that as long



Edited by Mark S. Harris             SCA-hist3-msg          Page 44 of 78
as we didn't erect permanent monuments (so to speak) with our Arms
inscribed, they really couldn't care less. As far as they were concerned, it
would be the same as if we were a troupe of actors. As one put it, they
weren't going to arrest an actor for saying he was Henry V.

    Three of them also included personal notes, asking if this was in
reference to the SCA, which rather surprised me, as I hadn't brought the
Society up at all. I corresponded with a couple for a bit; they had a rather
positive view of the Society, but were rather amused that we took ourselves
so seriously. They simply regarded us as a harmless troupe of re-enactors,
generally fun, but inclined to be a bit pedantic at times. And BTW, when a
mundane Herald tells you you're pedantic, you're REALLY pedantic!

    As I was leaving office, I forwarded these letters to the College, and
it was like a bomb went off! Oh, my god, was I EVER glad to be out of
office!!!! It was like an airborne battalion of foxes just dropped into a
chicken ranch. But I was gone, so it wasn't MY problem any more . . .

    However, even in death my power to annoy remained undiminished! Da'aud
used my letters to support The Bombshell, the decree to establish a codex of
protected armory and ignore the rest of it all. Heh, heh. As a result, it
became MUCH easier to get Arms registered.

    The really amusing part came a few years later; just before I took over
as Triskele Herald, I went to Pennsic, and (of course) worked the help table
there. After a bit it came out that it was I who had submitted the letters
that Da'aud had used to support the Bombshell, and boy, was my name mud
after that! A few Heralds were very appreciative that my efforts had
resulted in a massive reduction of their workload, but most of the others
looked at me like I had just pissed in the kiddy pool. Oh, well, we all have
our cross to bear . . .

   Sieggy


From: "Ashland S Henderson" <ashland at ccnet.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA origin story
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:43:38 -0700

gtv_13 at my-deja.com wrote in message <8h8e4k$l8m$1 at nnrp1.deja.com>...
>So how did it come about? I originally heard about the Party, then only
>recently did I hear that it came about through the Medieval Studies
>Dept. at Berkeley. Would those of you who were in on the Beginning
>please clarify?

Everybody has variations of the story, but here's the way I remember it.
Diana was going into the peace corps. She was a student in medieval
studies at Mills College and was also active in the local science fiction
and fantasy fandom circles in the San Francisco bay area. She and
her roommates decided to have a tournament in their back yard so
she would be the only one in the peace corps who had ever had a
tournament in her yard. She certainly got some of the idea from her
friends Ken (Duke Fulk de Wyvern) and Dave (Duke Siegfried von
Hoflichskeit). They were in their early 20's then and had, for their own
amusement, made shields of steel backed with leather and padded
maces. Using fencing masks, they had at least once borrowed the
back yard to practice fighting.

Once the idea of having a tournament got started Diana sent out
announcements to everyone who might possibly be interested. I still



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg           Page 45 of 78
have my copy (framed now) and have posted it on my web site at
www.maceanruig.homestead.com (follow the links to the SCA).
A bunch of us came, including five or six from the dorms at San
Francisco State College. Of that bunch, I stayed, along with Count
Stefan de Lorraine and Duke Henrik ap Havn. Everyone had fun
at the event (well, almost everyone), ending with a march down
Telegraph Avenue in Berkeley singing Greensleeves, since that
was the only medieval song we all knew.

From there, one event led to another and here we are. I can still
remember a conversation between Henrik, Fulk and I about the
future of the SCA and none of us could see it lasting longer than
two or three years. (good prophets weren't we?)


Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 17:53:19 -0500
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Period personna

At 3:12 AM -0400 6/6/00, allilyn at juno.com wrote:
> Your Grace, I have been longing to hear the story of how a good
>Maghrebi persona comes to have a good Welsh name. It's bedtime, so tell,
>please?

It's in the Miscellany (from an old T.I. article)--the only article
in the Miscellany that wasn't written by me or my lady.

The short version is:

1. I was loosely basing my persona on Carahue of Mauritania, and
somehow thought "Cariadoc" was a variant of "Carahue."

2. I then got a friend who was a professional linguist to get a
friend of his who was an Arabist to put together a plausible Arabic
name which might have been mispronounced "Cariadoc" by Europeans, on
the model of Avicenna, Saladin, etc.

3. The Arabic means "He of exquisite taste."

David/Cariadoc
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/


Subject: [SCA History]
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 00:45:34 -0400
From: rmhowe <MMagnusM at bellsouth.net>

For those interested in the origins of the SCA:
http://wrenhaven.uark.edu/Siegfrd.html

It's LONG, but if you REALLY Want to know where the SCA comes from,
this will do it.


Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 15:24:00 EST
From: KallipygosRed at aol.com
Subject: SC - RE: SC-Thanksgiving/SCA & Europe

Lord Ras said:
<<The focus of the SCA is NOT Europe. It is 'western cultures and the
cultures they came into contact with.'



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg           Page 46 of 78
While many folks say this is 'Europe,' Corpora is silent on the matter and
Hillary the founder of the SCA has repeatedly stated throughout the years
that such a restriction was never meant despite those that appear to want
this to be so in the current middle ages>>

< <A HREF="http://www.sca.org/"><Society for Creative Anachronism, Inc.</A>
http://www.sca.org/

"The Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA) is an international organization
dedicated to researching and recreating pre-17th-century European history.
All persons interested in such study are invited to use these pages to obtain
information about the SCA."

>From the official SCA website Home Page. These two lines have sparked more
argument in the game than I care to think about. But it does say "European"
and not Western Civilization, or Western Culture, unfortunately. Also,
unfortunately, there are those within the game who feel that because of these
two lines they can argue that there is no reason to allow other cultures to
be represented, and that people who do specialize in the study of the other
cultures are just not playing the game "correctly". It has come up time and
tima again on every SCA list to which I belong (5). When I attended a speech
given by three of the original four members who started the SCA in California
many years ago, they too, were somewhat at odds with each other about the
scope of the culture to be represented. Originally, remember, they had thrown
a party for a retiring member of University who had specialized in European
Midevial Literature, and the SCA was born out of the good time they had
recreating it for that party. When they incorporated they did their best to
maintain a "vague" aspect to it all. They were not business majors or
business teachers, they were lit teachers and students; mid 20s to 30s. Two
of the members at the speech said that incorporating was the worst mistake,
they felt, that had ever been done, because it turned the "dream" into a
"business venture"; but it had been necessary for insurance and legal
reasons. I got the distinct impression that they were a bunch of misfit
students that had wanted more to bash each other with sticks and kidnap
wenches at campsites than someone worried about whether their "intent" would
be misconstrued years later. Yes, they agreed that the intent originally was
to do re-enacts of history in Europe, but they felt that had been just a
"focus" point, a starting point, if you will. All agreed though, that no
matter what the "intent" was, there now exists the "is"; which happen to be
these two lines. All also agreed that it was unfortunate that many people who
play, including peerage, consider the words more important than the aspect of
the game, and deride people who attempt to play "outside the corporate
stance". One remarked on a kingdom he knew where the peerage will not award
you if you are not of the appropriate European persona. Their concensus was
that at this point, BOD has to change the articles to incorporate a wider
stance, or each kingdom passes their own laws amending the stance. It is
easier to do kingdom level than to get the BOD to do anything timely. So many
kingdoms have overridden the statement. But it really depends on where you
are, and the royalty viewpoint of it.

They also went on to say that these things happen as a company, venture
grows. And as the dream grows it changes a little each year. The first year
they had a group in Arizona they had 30 people at a camping event and thought
it gigantic. At the Estrella we were at, our gate toll for a three day count
was something like 8,000 people; which they remarked was greater than London
and its two other larger cities combined during "period". They thought that
fact was downright staggering. So do I.

So, basically, I guess, what I'm trying to say is, I agree with the founding
fathers and mothers of the SCA (taken from my notes): "Understanding of the



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg           Page 47 of 78
past makes it more real and closer to us. So, recreate to the best of your
ability and research; but for God's sake have fun doing it. This isn't
supposed to be homework. It's supposed to be enriching and fulfilling,
sharing play. Enjoy yourself with it. Create the you that you always wanted
to be. Knowledge is power. And it irritates the heck out of people."

Lars


Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 10:19:32 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - New Laurel on our List!!!

Here is what the glossary of SCA terms has to say about the Order of the
Rose:

Rose, Order of the -- This award was granted to those who had reigned as
Queen of Love and Beauty (and later, simply as Queen) to give them equal
rank with those who had reigned as King. Historical Note: In the very early
days of the SCA, if a fighter was not a Knight and they won the Crown
Tournament, they were offered Knighthood. The Order of the Rose was created
to give an equivalent title, as Countess (and Duchess) did not exist at the
time. This was first granted at Twelfth Night, AS II (January 6, 1968) by
[King] William the Silent, and was backdated for those who had reigned up
until that point as Queen. In the West Kingdom, membership in the Order of
the Rose is automatic (this is not the case in all Kingdoms of the SCA) --
when a former Queen is recognized as a Countess, they are also admitted to
the Order of the Rose. Note that members of the Order of the Rose are
equivalent in rank to the members of the Orders of Chivalry, the Laurel and
the Pelican. However, most people do not think of the Order of the Rose as a
peerage level award, as the recipient is also becoming a Countess at the
same time, which outranks the other non-royal peerages, as the title is that
of a Royal Peer.

Bear


Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 12:33:13 -0800
From: Susan Fox-Davis <selene at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Ladies of the Rose

Gunter wrote:
> Something to remember about the LoR is that it isn't
> even a Peerage in all Kingdoms. In Ansteorra it is more
> of a courtesy title than a Peerage. I think mainly because
> we feel, as has been mentioned, that the rank of Countess
> or Duchess is higher than simple Peerage.
>
> I believe most Principalities have similar awards for
> Princesses who step down but they are not Peerage either.

In West and traditionally-related kingdoms, Viscountesses are Ladies of the Rose
as well.

> Also, Duke Hector is considered a "Lord of the Rose" and
> actually goes up when the Ladies are called to protect the
> Queen's Crown.

I think the first male in the Order of the Rose was Duke William of Houghton,
lord husband of then-Princess-in-her-own-damright of the Mists, Maythen of
Elfhaven, in 1981. O but he had a grand time, being the Lord of Love and Beauty



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg           Page 48 of 78
with his Laddies in Lurking.    I never saw him stop smiling during their visit to
Caid's May Coronation.

In Caid there is one unbelted Duke. Don't ask. His lady is a member of the
Order of the Rose and a peer, all righty, but he ain't nothing but a Duke [and
still banished the last time I checked. Don't ask. I wasn't there.]

Selene
selene at earthlink.net


From: Marc Carlson [marccarlson20 at hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 4:25 PM
To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Ansteorra] 1 May 37 AS

I believe (and all the official documents seem to back this up) the Party
began year 1 (or would have had they been counting the years at that time -
the formal AS system started IIRC AS 3 or so). Therefore this is the first
day of the new year, AS 37.

====================================

Some years ago I started doing historical research on a number of things -
some of this research has been seen before, some has not. Since A lot of
the stuff I was doing on the history of the SCA was being done elsewhere, I
set it aside (so little time, so much to study). However there were a few
details that you might find interesting:

The Flyer:

Be it known to all who may be lovers of Chivalry
that there will be held on the first of May 12:00 to 6:00 pm
an International Tournament -- for that it is Spring.

All knights are summoned to defend in single combat the claims of
their ladies to the title of fairest, signified by the crown which will
be awarded to him who the judges deem fights most bravely. And for
the increase of joy to both them who fight and they who watch, there will be
both singing, and dance.

(please reply):

2219 Oregon St.,
Berkeley, Calif.
845-4340

All guests are encouraged to wear the of some age
of Christendom, Outre-Mer, or Faerie, in which swords were used.

===================================

The list is not complete, but it's those who were known to have been there.

Mundane/SKA                At the party and/or what happened to them later.

?/???                ???, Siegfried von Hoflichskeit's date

?/???                      Nathan Retarius

Judy/???              ???, Diana's Roomate; Now a cloistered nun.



Edited by Mark S. Harris              SCA-hist3-msg           Page 49 of 78
Anderson, Astrid/Astrid of Hawk Ridge     Countess
                        Queen Lucy of Narnia; Now Astrid Bear

Barnhart, Richard/Aegineous/Richard the Short/Richard of Mont Real
                        Duke, King 1.1   Sir Aeginius

Bradley, David/Ardral Argo verKaeysc
                        1st Knight   David the Herald

Braude, Nan/???            ???, Diana's Roomate

Breen, Marion Zimmer Bradley/Elfrid/Elflaeda of Greewalls Mistress
                        Dona Ximena; deceased

Breen, Walter/Walter of Greenwalls           hairy hermit wild; deceased

de Maiffe, Ken/Fulke de Wyvern Duke           Sir Kenneth Dottery,

Janet/???      ???, Later Bigglestone, later Winter; now Sloan Friedlander,

Howard/Bo of York                ???

Henderson, Steven/Steven MacEannruig Sir                     Sir Henderson

Hodghead, Beverly/Beverly Hodghead Master Beverly Hodghead,
                   singer?; deceased; 1st Laurel (or 2d depending on who's
telling the story)

Hodghead,
David/David of Ilwheirlane                     David Hodghead

Hodghead, Ellen Ellen Hodghead

Hodghead, Marynel/Marynel of Darkhaven Duchess, Queen 1.1

                                                         Marynel Hodghead

Hollander, Frederick/Frederick of Holland Duke Sir Frederick of Holland

Jacks, Jerry/Israel ben Jacob          Lord Mediocrates of Hellas; Deceased

Maxam, Benjy/???                       ???

Maxam, Joe/???                         ???

Meskys, Ed/???                         ???

Olsgaard, Henrick/Henrick of Havn Duke        Sir Henrick the Dane

Paxson, Diana/Diana Listmaker Mistress                 ??? (The Hostess)

Perrin, Steve/Stefan de Lorraine              ???

Pope, Elizabeth, Dr./no SCA persona; of Mills College     Deceased
 (notable for, among other things, the first criticism of SCA costuming by a
knowledgable source)

Reed, Carolyn/Mary of Tamar Duchess           Mary

Rolfe, Benjy                                  gafiated



Edited by Mark S. Harris               SCA-hist3-msg             Page 50 of 78
Rolfe, Joe                                   gafiated

Rolfe, Felice/Felice of Mahem House          Lady of Galadriel's Court;
                                             Felice Maxam; gafiated

Studebaker, Don/Jon De Cles', The Red Baron Baron        ???,
                  Eventually married Paxon

Thewlis, David/Siegfried von Hoflichskeit Duke     ???

Titcomb, Molly/Mariana Silversea              Eowyn of Rohan; Diana's Roomate

Wolfgangel, Paul/???                 1st King/Sir Deutsche Bursenschaft

  [This gentleman won the first tourney, and apparently vanished. So
   Sir Richard the Short, and his lady Marynel were selected to replace them]

Zimmer, Paul Edwin/???                         Edwin Bersaerk; deceased

?/???                              1st Queen/???, a simple peasant maid

Anderson, Poul/Bela of Eastmarch Sir         - latecomer/???, Deceased

Bigglestone, Clint/Harold Breakstone         - latecomer/???, Deceased

Zimmer, ?/Ann Parkhurst of Gatehouse       ???, Mother of Edwin Zimmer and MZB


Other early names who are frequently assumed to have been there but weren't
at the party:

Anderson, Karen/Karina of the Far West Mistress

Garett, Randall/Randall of Hightower Lord      Heraldic Founder; Deceased

Kurtz, Katherine/Bevan Frazier of Sterling Countess

Parker, Glen/Glyn ap Roodri Earl, Sir     (Professional Football Player)

Porter, Paul/Paul of Bellatrix Sir

Pournelle, Jerry/Jerome McKenna ??

Trimble, Bjo/Flavia Beatrice Carmigniani; Bjo of Griffin

Trimble, John/John ap Griffin

Caradoc ap Cador

Broxon, William

Broxon, Mildred Downey

Scithers, George


Subject: Group name/device history
Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 23:55:32 +0000
From: "K Francis"<baronesskay at hotmail.com>
To: "Mark.S Harris"<Mark.s.Harris at motorola.com>



Edited by Mark S. Harris              SCA-hist3-msg             Page 51 of 78
I love to see ways to preserve our history. In case you don't already have
it, here is what I know about my local group.

Back in AS I or so, there was a letter in the very early version of the Page
(West Kingdom newsletter, courtesy of Duke Henrik of Havn who has ORIGINAL
copies in a binder) about forming a Province of the North Bay, Province of
the East Bay and Province of the South Bay, effectively dividing up the
known world (greater bay area) at that time. Eventually the North Bay
(Marin and Sonoma Counties) became the Province of Caldarium and sometimes
known as the Land beyond the Rainbow. Marin County at the time was well
known for its hot tubs and peacock feathers, and the tunnels at the north
end of the Golden Gate Bridge have rainbows painted on them. So, the device
is Or, a laural wreath on a wood tub between two peacock feathers crossed in
base, proper. Great fun! And our badge is two rainbows issuant from clouds
forming a circle. The Province split off the Shire of Wolfscairn (Sonoma
Co.) and we have recently been reduced to a Shire ourselves due to lack of
membership numbers.

The East Bay became the Province of the Mists and the South Bay became the
Province of Southern Shores, both still going strong.

In Service,

Baroness Kay the Innocent of BelAnjou, OP
Kingdom of the West
Principality of the Mists
Shire of Caldarium


From: peerlady at hotmail.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: What we call ourselves
Date: 20 Aug 2003 09:27:36 -0700

> On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:23:05 +0000 (UTC), clevin at ripco.com (Craig
> Levin) wrote:

>OTOH, I've heard of Marklanders
>calling us Scathians, putting SCAdian into a sort of Old Icelandic
>guise.

   Perhaps someone else has already mentioned this, but just in case
... it was Marklanders who came up with the term "Scadian", a play on
"Scanian", from Scania, a Danish-speaking region of what is now
southern Sweden, but in SCA period was Danish territory.

   The pronunciation "skah" for SCA was originated by   Mike Toman in
the early 70s at Michigan State University (Barony of   the Northwoods).
 Mike was alternately distressed and amused that just   about all his
friends were sucked into the SCA, and took to calling   it "SCA [skah]
-- The Thing That Would Not Die." (Properly said with   bad monster
movie intonation.) "Skah" is still primarily a Middle   Kingdom usage.

   Cheers!

-- Signy


From: Dyan Ford <dyanford at txucom.net>
Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 11:44:42 PM US/Central



Edited by Mark S. Harris              SCA-hist3-msg          Page 52 of 78
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Ansteorra] Re: Fossil memories

>>>So, considering how thinly the SCA was spread in AS VI, how did you hear of
the SCA?
What do you see as having changed the most since then? What stands out the most
in your memories of the SCA in the last thirty years?
Stefan<<<<

Oh Boy,   what a set of questions!   Let's see how I can answer....

First, I 'heard of the SCA in college, in the back of the book 'The Broken
Sword' by Poul Anderson <sigh>. From what I recall, it mentioned a group of
people who spent their summer vacations near Chicago, playing 'medieval'. I
remember telling my roommate than I was going as soon as I got out of school &
got a job -- that was in 1969. (I _still_ have yet to attend Pensic!)

In 1972, I decided that if I couldn't get to Chicago, I'd try to find like-
minded folk in the Houston area. So, I hand-lettered a 'recruitment' poster &
posted it at a local Comics Convention. An old friend, JL3, saw it & asked why
didn't I just join the group that was already in Houston. I almost freaked,
demanding more info. He said that a group had formed some months earlier but
had only 3 three people. He offered to make some calls & see about setting up a
meeting -- which he did. We all met on the next Sunday to try to restart the
Barony, 7 in person & 2 by proxy.

And since the group (then known only as 'The Barony in Houston') needed a name,
we proceeded to debate possibilities. In those days, groups were often named
for a predominant local landmark. Well, we sure didn't want the Bayou Barony!
So I thought of NASA and suggested 'StarGate' because a reporter had earlier
dubbed Houston as the Gateway to the Stars.... everyone seemed to like it so the
name stuck. The device became a nine pointed star with 3 greater points for the
original founders & 6 smaller points for the rest of us -- and 1 point was
'supposed' to be a 'binary' because JL3 was the only married founder (at the
time) & we wanted to include his Lady (which she now denies --- hey, that's how
_I_ remember it! )

As to how has it changed..... oh, there are not words to properly describe the
differences! I mean, this was years before the Texas RenFaire, & we _lived_ the
joke of "Are you in a Play?". No one took us seriously and communications with
others in the SCA just didn't exist -- the nearest groups were Draconia (Baton
Rouge, LA) to the East and the Atenveldt Barony/Kingdom (Tempe, AZ) to the West.
In those days, there were only 4 Kingdoms & Atenveldt extended from the southern
Atlantic States across to the border of California. I remember how we struggled
to find references and information about historical practices. We truly did
'wing it' and things were accepted for the 'effort' involved in the making, not
the 'historical accuracy' that is demanded today.   The Dream was almost a
tangible thing in those days & anyone who even made the attempt was welcome to
play. I truly miss some of that 'tolerance'.

As to the most 'Memoriables' ... I'm afraid I'll have to put that into an
article or something. The email would be much too long! And this email has
become too long also! Thank you for your patience.

Shanahan the Fey, MLA, OLA, OMS, Starholder


From: Steve Mesnick <steffan at pobox.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pennsic I Legend
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 23:57:05 GMT



Edited by Mark S. Harris             SCA-hist3-msg           Page 53 of 78
>>One practical way to do it would be to have a non-war-point
>>battle at Pennsic (or Estrella) where the winner of the last
>>Pennsic leads the Orient (EK-derived kingdoms) against the
>>Occident (WK-derived kingdoms).
>
> And how do you fit Meridies and Trimaris into that categorization?

There is evidence that what-eventually-became-Meridies was,
early on, considered to be "under the umbrella" of the East.
When I was Brigantia Herald in the early '80's, there was in
my files an inexplicable set of early chronicles of events in
Wyvernwood. That's in Florida. Turns out they reported to New
York, and my predecessor (Alfgar, I think it must have been)
dutifully kept the correspondence.

When I speak of Oriental and Occidental Rite in SCA
Inter-Kingdom Anthropology, I break it down this way:

The Occident:
WEST <- ATENVELDT <- MERIDIES <- TRIMARIS
                   <- ANSTEORRA
                <- OUTLANDS
                   <- ARTEMISIA
      <- CAID
      <- AN TIR
      <- LOCHAC

The Orient:
EAST <- MIDDLE <- CALONTIR
                <- EALDORMERE
      <- ATLANTIA
      <- DRACHENWALD
      <- AETHELMEARC

Of course, Atenveldt separated from the West so long ago that
that branch is considered independent by some, and I've heard
Atenveldt and her daughters referred to in terms of "the Atenveldt
Heresy". Some claim that Trimaris is more Oriental than its roots
would imply, due to geography. But I'll leave that for you Trimarians.

Still, based on the breakdown above, that would be one glorious
battle....

      Steffan


Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 23:54:38 -0500
From: "JAMES REVELLS" <sudnserv5 at verizon.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] OT: RIP an SCA Legend
To: <SCA-HUMOR at yahoogroups.com>, <sca-east at indra.com>,
      <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Cc: carolingia at indra.com, sca_merchants at yahoogroups.com

I have just been informed of the passing of Aonghais Dubh McTarb (MKA
Paul Serio) in a Florida prison of heart disease on Saturday, 21 February
2004. The family of Countess Arastorm the Golden was informed by the prison
Chaplin. It was also stated that the Chaplin had been unable to contact his
daughter Katherine, and his ex-wife, Mary Taran of Glastonbury. Please be
caring in approaching any of his family that have not been informed.




Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg           Page 54 of 78
Olaf of Trollhiemsfjord


From: Jay Rudin <rudin at ev1.net>
Date: May 8, 2004 3:39:38 PM CDT
To: "Ansteorra at Ansteorra.org" <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Ansteorra] Re: Protocol Question (Warning: Can of Worms)>

Snorri asked:
> The only reference I found for this form of address is from the Society
> Corpora, which gives the official title/address of a GoA as
> "Lord/Lady."
>
> So my question is: where did the Honorable Lord/Lady and His/Her Lordship
> come from, and under what authority save for tradition are we using it?

Well, first of all, what authority except for tradition makes us care about
Ansteorra at all? Tradition is much stronger than mere law in
Ansteorra.

A lot of this is memories from over twenty years ago, so the details
may not be exact. But they're generally right.

When I first joined, the only title for an Award or Grant was "Lord / Lady".
(Of course, when I joined, we had just settled on the name "dirt" for this
stuff on the ground.) We were the Principality of Ansteorra, in the kingdom
of Atenveldt, which had once spread from Florida to Idaho, and was founded
with very little knowledge of the SCA's traditions. (The SCA's traditions
can be roughly broken down into Western Rite, Eastern Orthodox, and the
Atenveldt heresy.)

Atenveldt decided that Grants would have the right to be Lord / Lady
<surname>. Thus, if Snorri would, at that time, be Snorri, Lord Hallsson.
All Atenveldters, including the Ansteorrans, knew that this was their
right.

Not that it mattered much. Grants were very rarely given out, except to
kingdom officers who weren't peers or nobles. Mostly it was used by peers,
such as Master Lloyd, Lord von Eaker, or Sir Ton Lord Traveller.

This was, of course, illegal, and eventually got noticed. Why is it
illegal? Well, Lord von Eaker and Lord Traveller are no problem, but if
Galen of Bristol was called Galen Lord Bristol, then that is a claim that he
rules the city of Bristol.

So the Laurel King of Arms, Master Wilhelm von Schlussel, ruled that it was
an unacceptable usage, in the very early 1980s, when Ansteorra was a baby
kingdom. This didn't affect people most places, because there were very few
people whose precedence came from a Grant of Arms.

Except in Ansteorra. In the second reign, King Lloyd (von Eaker) elevated
the Star and Iris to Grant-level awards, and re-wrote the principality Order
of the Cavaliers of the SCA into the grant-level White Scarf of Ansteorra.
These were the first grant-level Orders, and the growing number of
members meant a lot of Grant-level people.

No problem for the White Scarves. They had been called "Don / Dona" since
the principality Order, and kept doing so even after the Laurel King of Arms
ruled that that title was reserved to knights. The constitution said, not
that they had the right to the title "Don", but they it would be recognized
tradition in Ansteorra to call them so.



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg           Page 55 of 78
(What's the difference? Well, if the king says that all Stars of Merit will
be called "Chuckles":, then we, being good and loyal Ansteorran subjects,
will call him Chuckles Snorri. That doesn't make "Chuckles" a title.)

But that leaves us with the Irises and Stars. Since no king told us to call
them "chuckles", what do we call them? Aureliane (the first Star Principal
Herald) proposed the honorific "Honorable Lord / Lady", and the form of
address "Your Ladyship / Lordship". These were deemed acceptable, though
neither one is a title. Your refer to him as the Honorable Lord Snorri, and
call him "Your Lordship", but you never (properly) say "His Lordship Snorri"
and his title is "Lord".

(By the way, the objection to "Your Lordship / Ladyship" is that is was
almost universally used only in the upward direction. The servant addresses
the manor lord that way; the manor lord addresses the local baron, etc.)

Since then, the title Don / Dona has been recognized as equivalent to Lord
or Lady, Therefore, it is the proper title for White Scarves, and the
Ansteorran tradition is that Italian and Spanish AoAs and GoAs don't use it
unless they have White Scarves. (Yes, they have the right to, just as
everybody has the right to wear a red belt. But we tend to choose not to
annoy the Dons, just as we choose not to annoy the squires.)

So what about "Centurion"?   That's Latin for "chuckles".

His Lordship the Honorable Lord Don Centurion Chuckles Robin of Gilwell


Date: Tu, 1 Jul 2004 23:58:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] An Invitation, Etc.
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

--- Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com> wrote:
> Hmmm. Anyone know if anyone has been offered a Peerage, but had the
> offer withdrawn before it actually happened?
>
> Stefan

Yes. Candidate, in planning the ceremony, ticked
off the Royals so badly that they withdrew the
offer. It turned out to be a complete
miscommunication, but another pair of Royals did
the deed six months later. And, no, I will never
divulge names, dates or places, even off-list.

Huette


Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:14:02 -0400
Fom: "Terri Morgan" <nothingbutadame at inthe.sca.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 14, Issue 4
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Hmmm. Anyone know if anyone has been offered a Peerage, but
> had the offer withdrawn before it actually happened?
>
> Stefan

Unfortunately, it happened to a friend of mine with no explanation given,



Edited by Mark S. Harris            SCA-hist3-msg            Page 56 of 78
the ceremony jus didn't happen on the date originally set and then never
happened. We try not to talk about it.

Hrothny


From: Heather Rose Jones <heather.jones at earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: "Dead Rabbits" at War
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 01:22:36 GMT

Cynthia Gee wrote:
> "Mark S. Harris" <stefanlirous at austin.rr.com> wrote in message
>> Steve Mesnick <steffan at pobox.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Viscount Edward said:
>>> >>The name has failed miserably I admit and will be changed to the
>>>>>Volunteer Co-Ordination Office for future Pennsics.
>>>
>>>ARVAL SAID:
>>>
>>>>If you're going to change the name, it might be nice to try to find a
>>>>reasonably medieval name that fits the bill. If you think there's any
>>>>chance that could happen, I'll help.
>>>
>>>I SAY:
>>>ME TOO!!! I have been decrying the mundanification of SCA office
>>>names and institutions for years, and it really came to a head this
>>>year at Pennsic.
>>
>>Well, how about we get rid of "Troll" since we are not a fantasy
>>organisation and go with "Gate"?

 > Personally, I like the idea of saying Troll. It's an SCA tradition that goes
 > right back to our founding. Remember where we came from.

To the best of my knowledge, nobody was using "troll" for
gate at our founding. So clearly it's a johnny-come-lately
innovation that we should ditch in the name of tradition.

Tangwystyl
--
Heather Rose Jones
heather.jones at earthlink.net


From: Steve Mesnick <steffan at pobox.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Why Corpora?
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:39:09 -0400

This is a weird question, maybe, but here goes. I've
been in the SCA for, oh, 27 years now and I've never
quite gotten a full answer.

Why are the primary governing documents of the SCA
called "The Corpora"?

Yes, I know about "the body of laws" or the
"body of precedents" or "the body of decisions". Is
that part of the story? But, in any case, "body" in Latin



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg             Page 57 of 78
is "corpus": "corpora" is plural. I could understand if the
thing were called "Corpus Legum" or somesuch....

What I'm looking for is history: who decided to call
this document "Corpora", and why. I'd be very interested
to hear from Someone Who Was There.

--- Steffan ap Kennydd


Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:14:03 -0400
From: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue at thibault.org>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Why Corpora? (theory)

Steve Mesnick wrote:
> Yes, I know about "the body of laws" or the
> "body of precedents" or "the body of decisions". Is
> that part of the story? But, in any case, "body" in Latin
> is "corpus": "corpora" is plural. I could understand if the
> thing were called "Corpus Legum" or somesuch....

Back when I started paying attention to such things, it seemed very
clear that there were several different documents in Corpora, so it
would make sense to use the plural. However, you may need an SCA
historian to say if this was really the case.

Now that they're bundling everything under "governing documents" it does
seem less like many different "bodies."

cv


From: "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott at csuohio.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Why Corpora? (theory)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:47:33 -0400

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:14:03 -0400, Cynthia Virtue
<cvirtue at thibault.org> wrote:
> Steve Mesnick wrote:

>>   Yes, I know about "the body of laws" or the
>>   "body of precedents" or "the body of decisions". Is
>>   that part of the story? But, in any case, "body" in Latin
>>   is "corpus": "corpora" is plural. I could understand if the
>>   thing were called "Corpus Legum" or somesuch....

> Back when I started paying attention to such things, it seemed very
> clear that there were several different documents in Corpora, so it
> would make sense to use the plural.

Not really: one speaks of the corpus ('body') of someone's
work, meaning all of his works collectively. 'Corpora'
implies that there are not just several documents, but
several collections of documents.

[...]

Talan




Edited by Mark S. Harris             SCA-hist3-msg            Page 58 of 78
From: James Pratt <cathal at mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Why Corpora?
Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 14:15:21 GMT

>What I'm looking for is history: who decided to call
>this document "Corpora", and why. I'd be very interested
>to hear from Someone Who Was There.
>
>--- Steffan ap Kennydd

The first volume of +CORPORA+ published in 1971 has the following
entries:

(p.2) "The Corpora being a body of decisions and rulings made by the
Board of Directors of the Society for Creative Anachronism,
Incorporated, for use by the said Board of Directors, the Officers of
said corperation (sic) those to whom they may delegate authority, and
any and all who may have reason to have dealings with the said
Corperation (sic),,,"

(p.3.) "...It is the decision of the Board of Directors of the Society
for Creative Anachronism, Inc, to excerpt its specific decisions and
rulings of such nature that they may alleviate the above mentioned
problems and post them in a small edition under the title "The
Corpora".

These two paragraphs give the answer to one question, i,e, who chose
the title, and that is the Board of Directors. Exactly who proposed
it is not known; however the BoD itself assumed the authority and
credit of the action.

The actual origin of the name may be a bit more difficult to construe.
It could be an extension of an actual dilemma found all too often in
period works themselves: bad Latin.   The rendering of Latin nouns in
Medieval texts could assume some truly astounding endings and that is
in this case, dare I say it, creatively anachronistic.

However I prefer to give more credit to the erudition of the Founders,
and submit that the second paragraph cited above _may_ offer a clue to
the origin of the use of CORPORA rather than the normal "corpus" for
the term 'body'.
The paragraph from page (3) specifically mentions that the publication
will be in a 'small edition'. I vaguely recall that the addition of
the ending 'a' to some nouns taking different endings could
indicate a diminuative or 'pet' usage. Hence 'corpora' could be
offered as meaning a 'small body/edition' of the decisions of the
Board.

Cathal.


From: Charlene Charette <neitherhere at northere.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Dumb Question
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 04:46:13 GMT

Arval wrote:
> It's not clear from this that the "honorable" usages were approved by
> the Board: The Board approved his proposal regarding patents for royal



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg            Page 59 of 78
>   peers; but the rest of this paragraph just reports a set of additional
>   proposals presented for discussion. Master Wilhelm had an unfortunate
>   tendency to overstep his authority in matters like these, so I'd want
>   to see the Board minutes before drawing any conclusions.

The old BOD minutes are at:
http://www.sca.org/BOD/minutes/

I have a vague recollection of this when I typed it up, but I haven't
the time right now to go looking for it.

--Perronnelle


From: Chris Zakes <moondrgn at earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: "KIssing up"
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 23:38:12 GMT

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 16:31:33 GMT, an orbital mind-control laser
caused Charly the Bastard <nitecrawler7 at worldnet.att.net> to write:

(snippage)

>PS there weren't 'authorizations' back then. There weren't even waivers.

While   you're correct that there weren't authorizations "back then" (at
least   in the part of Atenveldt that eventually became Ansteorra--I
think   some other kingdoms *did* have them) we've been signing waivers
since   *at least* AS 9, when I joined.

         -Tivar Moondragon
                 Ansteorra


From: Stephen <stephen at invalid.verso.org>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Questions about Chisels
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 14:27:04 +1300

> Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> Somebody else
>> (don't even know the name) got his for photography.    (Living in
>> Caid when it was still part of the West.)

Anthony J. Bryant wrote:
> You've got to be kidding about that. Please tell me you're kidding.

I've even corresponded with a lady who claimed to be that Laurel!

As far as I recall, she received her laurel in the days when there were
no Pelicans, and the implication I got was that she'd done a lot of
service for the kingdom, and Powers That Be wanted to recognize that,
and the thing they came up with was photography.

But I've never actually met the person, so it's mostly hearsay.

Ulf
Quarterly Gules and Argent
Dartonshire, Lochac




Edited by Mark S. Harris             SCA-hist3-msg           Page 60 of 78
From: Stephen <stephen at invalid.verso.org>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Questions about Chisels
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 14:34:39 +1300

> But I've never actually met the person, so it's mostly hearsay.

    From http://www.sca-caid.org/laurels/Joan.htm

Mistress Joan of Crawfordsmuir
Photography and Cooking
Elevated April 29, l978
By Terrence and Allisandra
King and Queen of the West

Ulf
Quarterly Gules and Argent
Dartonshire, Lochac


From: "sclark55 at rogers.com" <sclark55 at rogers.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Activities for a small shire
Date: 3 Apr 2005 14:56:26 -0700

> > Maybe someone here can pipe up with an authoritative history and how
> > the SCA picked it up. (I've played a non-armored touch version.)

http://www.bootsnall.com/cgi-bin/gt/travelstories/me/aug01buzkashi.shtml

> Here's a basic explanation on how the original game works, and it's
name,
> buzkashi or bozkashi. How SCA took it up and modified it, I don't
know.

As far as I know, SCA Bouzhkashi was devised by Duke Finvarr de Taahe
and Baron Torbin of Amberhall sometime in the late 70s-early 80s. You
can read an article about it written by Finvarr in TI #102, from 1992.

Incidentally, if you read the article, you'll find out about Murphy,
the original bouzhkashi sheep. Murphy is now retired, but is the
official Canton of Eoforwic mascot. He currently resides in my
basement.

Nicolaa


Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:52:11 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: time was: "Trial By Fire" Ad
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

>   <<< In theory,anyway, we're an educational organization learning and
>   studying about the historical period prior to Dec 1, 1600.>>
>
>   *Prior to   17th century which starts January 1,1601.
>   There are   those Kingdoms that have members that do Cavalier or periods up to
>   1650. Why   1650? I do not know, only that I am told that that is as far as
>   SCA folks   are willing to tolerate out of SCA period. Ten years ago the
>   tolerance   date stopped around 1605, maybe someone got dyslectic with the



Edited by Mark S. Harris               SCA-hist3-msg           Page 61 of 78
> date.
>
> Lyse

In the early days of the SCA, one of the widely used publications (Queen
Carole's Guide, I think) used 1650 as the cut off date rather than the
"pre-17th Century" stated in Corpora. 1650 became the "generally accepted"
but incorrect end date.

Bear


Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:36:20 -0700
From: "K C Francis" <katiracook at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pennsic Article - West Kingdom History Site
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

The West Kingdom has a History site with pictures and event descriptions of
as many events (from the beginning) as possible. Here are the memories of
those who were there starting with what led up to the first event.

http://history.westkingdom.org/Year0/index.htm

click on [year 1] to check out the flyer for that first event and
pictures.

Katira al-Maghrebiyya


From: Marc Carlson <marccarlson20 at hotmail.com>
Date: November 9, 2005 12:53:08 PM CST
To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Ansteorra] RE: How times have changed

I really can't speak for the gas prices, since I've been morally offended ever
since they passed a $1 a gallon.

However, I've been scanning in some old photos from old events since I joined,
as well as some more recent ones, and I have to say that as much as people like
me bitch and moan about the overall level of costuming and accuracy, it's way
better now (over all) than it was back in 1988 (please note I am not being
criitcal, in general people were doing the best they could, we have more
available to us now) For that matter, it was much better in 1988 than it was in
the old pics from AS1 (some pics from the First Tournament can be found at
http://history.westkingdom.org/Year1/FirstTournament.htm - I'd love to see the
film they talk about. Pics from the other first year tourneys can be found off
of this page http://history.westkingdom.org/Year1/index.htm -- this is your
history)

Things change.

Marc/Diarmaid


Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:01:09 -0700
From: Susan Fox <selene at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Imperium Compound - first results
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Bear wrote:
> If anyone can locate Ioesph of Locksley, you might ask him for the



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg             Page 62 of 78
> recipe. IIRC, he is both the author of the song and one of the
> originators of the drink.

I've heard from Duke Siegfried von Höflichkeit, who wrote:

     As I'm sure you know, Imperium Compound started as a Dark Horde
     song, a filksong on Lydia Pinkham's Medicinal Compound. In fact
     when I asked Yang about it back in approximately AS X he told me
     there really wasn't an actual drink of that name and invited me to
     invent one -- so I did. Or rather I adapted a recipe for Whiskey
     Sours, as I wanted something that would be "tasty" to pretty near
     anybody. I believe Maureen (Dierdrianna) got the recipe from me
     somewhere around AS XIII.

     Here is the recipe as I wrote it down, somewhere around   XV:

     Mix just under 1/2 cup of sugar and an equal amount of warm water to
     form a syrup.

     Combine with 1-2/3 cups of bourbon; 3/4 cup of fresh lemon juice
     (RealLemon works fine if it is newly opened).

     Heat to just under a simmer (don't let it boil or you'll bake off
     the alcohol), cool slightly, decant to bottles. This will store for
     2-3 months.

     Serve chilled (you may put ice in it; it's a little overpowering
     even cold without a bit of diluting).

     I have no idea if there were other IC recipes circulating, but this
     is what we knew as IC.

OK, this is Selene again. None of the preceding necessarily means that
Locksley didn't have his own version, after all... Keep scouring those
old notes guys. Bwahaha.

Selene Colfox


Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 10:35:20 -0700
From: Susan Fox <selene at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Food-related Meta-Issue
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Tom Vincent wrote:
> Crowns could be determined by warfare against competing armies
> collected by those vying for the throne. To build an army, one
> needs to be reasonably charismatic, somewhat of a good leader &
> organizer and (hopefully) one who reflects the higher aspirations
> of royalty. In other words, someone you'd be proud to have
> represent your kingdom to other kingdoms, let alone the outside world.

Or the guy who buys them the most beer.   Bribery happens.

> It's discouraging to note that out of nineteen kingdoms, not one
> has been allowed to experiment with -different-, let alone
> *period*, methods of determining crowns.

Not so. The Pricipality of the Mists did a six-fold list of arts for
Coronet one time. The arts did include "Martial" and the winner did
happen to have won the fighting as well. Sir Maythen of Elfhaven, and



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg             Page 63 of 78
SHE was a fine a sovereign as ever they had, too.   <smile>

> 'Defending' the current system by describing it as unfair,
> rediculous & resulting in blockheads as crowns should tell you that
> a better way can be had, if only to avoid that sort of 'defense'. :)
>
> Duriel

If I recall correctly, there is nothing in the SCA by-laws that
disallows it. If you want to try to talk your kingdom into trying
something else, best of luck to you. But don't go expecting much. In
any era, the ones in power tend to want to stay there. Cronyism and Old
Boys Networks are period too, n'est-ce pas?

Sadly, Selene


Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:22:16 -0400
From: "Carol Smith" <Eskesmith at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Royal scions
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Yes; it ran Akbar, Murad, and then Akbar (who's his own grandpa, as anyone
can see), back in 1970. So you have a father succeeding his son, who then
succeeded his father.
Akbar again won crown in 1973. All were pre-Pennsic reigns.

Regards,
Brekke

From: "Sandra Kisner" <sjk3 at cornell.edu>
>> In An Tir, there's Duke Gunnar Brunwolf (3 reigns) and his son, Duke Sven
>> Fallgr Gunnarsson (in the middle of his 4th reign). Neither of them has
>> succeeded the other, however.
>
> Are there any examples in period of a father succeeding a son?
>
> Sandra


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt at kithrup.com (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Inside the Corporate Office: Myths and Questions
Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd.
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 19:41:18 GMT

Richard R. Hershberger <rrhersh at acme.com> wrote:
>Steve Mesnick wrote:
>> > All the Directors always vote the same way.
>>
>> I'm not presenting a rigorous statistical analysis, but having followed
>> the BoD minutes for 25+ years, I think it's a pretty good bet to put
>> your money on the most conservative, don't-rock-the-boat outcome of
>> any BoD vote. That, mind you, is not necessarily a bad thing: when the
>> BoD *does* surprise us, we tend to wind up with a Tony Provine.
>
>Heh. I was a principal herald when the BoD voted in pay-to-play. I
>hadn't heard anything about it ahead of time. Someone in the kingdom
>heard a rumor about it and was outraged. He went down the list of
>kingdom officers until he got one on the phone. I was the lucky
>winner. This resulted in my being on the phone rather longer than I



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg              Page 64 of 78
>wanted to be, making soothing noises about how this didn't sound to me
>like the sort of thing the BoD would simply spring on us. Didn't I
>feel foolish afterwards.   It the choice is between don't-rock-the-boat
>conservatism and sudden surprises, conservatism is frequently the less
>bad choice. Both seem a rather pale substitute for open and forthright
>discussion.

I was at that meeting....asking pointed questions, which they let me
do becasue I was wearing jacket and tie. I was also Kingdom
Constable through the mess and dealt with Provine a fair amount. He
signally failed to understand that what Hilary referred to rogue
offices *didn't* do any reporting to corporate though a named
corporate offcier who then reported to Steward/Executive Director.

It was an interesting time....but one I'm not anxious to repeat.
--
      Hal Heydt
      Albany, CA


Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 22:11:21 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] First cookbooks.... SCA cookbooks
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Sue Clemenger wrote:
> 3. What was the first period cookbook/food text you ever owned? In this
> case, mine was a photocopy of Sass' _King's Taste_ and _Queen's Taste_.
> What about the rest of you?
> --Maire, throwing out a few topics for discussion....

I joined 33 years ago next month, so I was actually around
prior to Pleyn Delit and Lorna Sass and Cosman. In the fall of 1973 we
were using The Horizon Cookbook, and Illustrated
History of Eating and Drinking Through the Ages, from
1968. In 1971 all the recipes came out as The Horizon Cookbook;
A Treasury of 600 Recipes From Many Centuries and Many Lands,
and that was available on remainder tables at Waldens in 73-74.
Mrs. Groundes-Peace?s Old Cookery Notebook, by Zara Groundes-Peace.
from 1971 was another favorite as was Richard Barber's
Cooking & Recipes from Rome to the Renaissance from 1973. Also out then was
The Cornucopia: by Judith and Marguerite Shalett Herman which also remaindered
cheap. My copy of Food and Drink in Britain by C. Anne Wilson dates from
1974. Food in History by Reay Tannahill also came out in 1973.
Also from 1973 was the original Seven Centuries of English Cooking by
Maxime McKendry.

Johnnae


From: Chris Zakes <dontivar at gmail.com>
Date: October 6, 2006 6:46:30 AM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Ansteorra] Armor standards (was: Earl Marshal Out of Kingdom)

> Can anyone explain why Freon Cans went out of fashion?   Just the look?
>
>   Colin
>   (a very post Freon Can Period participant)

The appearance didn't help--it's almost impossible to make a freon



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg              Page 65 of 78
can look like anything except a freon can.

But the main reason is that the metal used for freon cans is pretty
thin, maybe 18 gauge mild steel? Over the years, people have been
slowly increasing their blow force. When an "average" blow leaves a
significant dent in a helm, then it's time to do something. The
choice was, first, to only allow "reinforced" freon can helms, then
later to ban them completely in favor of 16 gauge or heavier steel.

Of course, as armor standards increased, blow force increased to
match it, or maybe it's the other way 'round. That's why we now
require rigid protection over the joints (instead of knee and elbow
pads), why we now require rigid protection on the forearms (instead
of nothing), why we now require plate gauntlets or basket hilts for
both hands (instead of--depending on which year it was--hockey gloves
or light leather gloves on the sword hand and nothing on the shield
hand.) That's also why most fighters wear plate or leather on their
legs, even though it's *not* required in the rules.

          -Tivar Moondragon


From: "willowdewisp at juno.com" <willowdewisp at juno.com>
Date: June 25, 2007 12:23:38 PM CDT
To: ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Ansteorra] Sca history

I though this might be fun I found it in the Western History project. Does
anyone have a copy of Yang's tape? Mine bit the dust.

willow

Bowing to the Empty Thrones

“When did we start bowing to the royal presence in the form of the empty
thrones? Why?”

“My earliest recollection of saluting the empty thrones was during one of
Henrik's early reigns (the third or fourth) when he preferred to be riding a
horse to sitting on the throne. When the fighters complained that it was hard to
locate him to salute at the beginning of each fight, he placed the crown on the
throne and told them to salute that ... he was going riding. The populace semi-
mockingly got into the spirit of the ruse - bowing/curtseying if they happened
to pass in front of "The Royal Presence".

The fiction was so useful that it quickly became custom then formally part of
the pre-combat litany shortly thereafter.” – Kevin Peregrynne

 “Of course, there is also a Horde song called "The Empty Throne" as I'm sure
you are aware. But your original question was "bowing to the royal presence" (ie
the throne, when passing in front of the royal pavilion, whether or not saluting
prior to a fight) as opposed to saluting per se. I think that started to happen
almost as soon as we had Kings on the thrones; I'm pretty sure it was
institutionalized by about AS III.” – Siegfried von Hoflichskeit


From: Chris Zakes <dontivar at gmail.com>
Date: November 9, 2007 8:42:39 PM CST
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Crown heirs--historical/philosophical questions


Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg              Page 66 of 78
At 11:07 AM 11/9/2007, Elizabeth wrote:

(snip)

>   I believe that NO ONE should enter Crown Tourney
>   unless they really want to be crown for the upcoming reign, but it
>   happens anyway. Some might say it's because they love fighting in
>   that tourney, against all the really good fighters. Some might just
>   want to make sure so and so doesn't get it, the fact is it is done.
>   But as this "political" side of the SCA is fairly new to me, I am sure
>   there are reasons that Dukes can do this and others
>   can't/shouldn't/won't whichever is the case. It would be interesting
>   to know the history behind it, but for now I will accept it as fact
>   and go on.

As I understand things, back in the earliest days of the SCA (like AS
3 or 4) it was expected that *all* Knights would enter Crown Tourney.
Dukes, having already served twice, were exempt from that
expectation. That was the beginning of "Ducal Prerogative."

Around the time I joined (AS 10) I was told that Dukes could *enter*
Crown Tourney at any point during the tournament. I don't know if
that was true, or just a garbled version of the actual policy; in
those days Atenveldt stretched from Arizona north to the Canadian
border and eastward to the Atlantic Ocean. It included the lands that
are now Artemesia, the Outlands, Ansteorra, Gleann Abhann, Meridies
and Trimaris. Crown Tourneys were almost always held in central
Atenveldt (i.e. Phoenix or Tucson) and there wasn't a lot of
communication between central Atenveldt and the outlying regions.
(This was well before email was invented--if you wanted to talk to
someone you had to call them on the phone, write a letter or catch
them at an event.) Much of what we knew about how the SCA worked was,
at best, third or fourth hand.

These days, Ducal Prerogative means "Any Duke or Duchess entered in
the Crown Lists has the right to withdraw from the Crown lists at any
time." That's what Kingdom Law says.

For the record, I don't see anything in Kingdom Law that says other
fighters *can't* withdraw from Crown Tourney at any time. I've never
fought in Crown, so I don't know if there's a custom or unwritten
rule that says you shouldn't do so. But on the other hand, I agree
with Elizabeth. If you're not willing to do the job, why enter the
tourney at all? (And that's *why* I've never fought in Crown: I don't
want to be King.)

           -Tivar Moondragon


From: Chris Zakes <dontivar at gmail.com>
Date: November 10, 2007 10:20:44 PM CST
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] SCA Vocabulary

>   I have seen the phrases "feastocrat", "troll", and "dragon" quite commonly
>   in my previous kingdom. Dragon wasn't use too often; I always preferred
>   horse or stead (I think that comes from the rennie side of me). I can
>   understand some people taking offense to the title of troll. But is the
>   title feastocrat considered bad here? What do head chefs preferred
>   to be called?



Edited by Mark S. Harris             SCA-hist3-msg           Page 67 of 78
>
> I hope I haven't offended anyone!    ;-)
>
> Will Meriic

Probably not. This is actually a recurring subject for discussion.
Story time, children!

While setting up the SCA's second event, Marion Zimmer Bradley (yes,
the science fiction author) was filling out a form to reserve a park
in San Francisco and one of the questions on the form was "Title."
The first thing that popped into her head was "autocrat" so that's
what she put down, and the name stuck. (One of the earlier questions
on that form was "name of organization", and "Society for Creative
Anachronism" was the first thing that popped into her head.)

Since then, tacking -ocrat onto any SCA-related job has become pretty
common.

"Troll" was a pretty obvious pun on "toll", but that joke got old a
*long* time ago.

About ten or fifteen years ago (at least in Ansteorra) people started
pushing for more historically accurate names: event steward instead
of autocrat, gate instead of troll, head cook or feast steward
instead of feastocrat, privy instead of Shrine of St. John of the
Swirling Waters, etc.

Nowadays some folks use the historically accurate names, some folks
still use the "traditional" names. It's pretty much a matter of
personal preference. If you look through the event announcements in
the Kingdom Calendar http://calendar.ansteorra.org/ or Black Star,
you'll see that both terms are used.

          -Tivar Moondragon


From: Sandy Straubhaar <orchzis at hotmail.com>
Date: January 26, 2008 9:02:56 PM CST
To: <bryn-gwlad at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Bryn-gwlad] First experiences of the SCA

> On Jan 24, 2008, at 9:23 AM, Sandy Straubhaar wrote:
>
>> I believe my first experiences of the SCA were Westercon in L.A. in
>> 1967 and Bilbo and Frodo's Birthday Party in Sycamore Grove Park
>> (also in the greater L.A. area) in the fall of 1967. There were
>> two guys from the SCA down from the Bay Area at Bilbo's and Frodo's
>> who were wearing chain mail crafted from disassembled Army surplus
>> pot-scrubbers, sitting on top of a table lifting their tankards and
>> singing raucously in harmony. I wanted to be them.
>>
>> brynhildr
>
> So how long after that before you actually got involved in the SCA?
>
> Stefan

About 1973, West Kingdom, Shire of Southern Shores (Stanford). I
remember lots of wonderful events at Big Trees Campground in the East
Bay. I helped autocrat one in the Stanford Oval. Paul of Bellatrix



Edited by Mark S. Harris              SCA-hist3-msg        Page 68 of 78
came (he was king at the time) with his (then) little boys. I
remember listening to "Oak Ash and Thorn" (cool acappella men) at a
Twelfth Night next to Sir Bela of Eastmarch (Poul Anderson). I was
so star-struck I didn't even talk to him. I taught some classes at
the "University of Ithra at Mists". Freon can helms were still
common (Sir William the Lucky and Mary of Uffington [IIRC] both had
them) as well as chain mail worn on the field to fight in (ditto).
There was some very fine garb [GARB! yo, Eule!] back then though --
embroidery, and blockprinted fabrics, some techniques you don't see
as much any more. I remember some of us went to great lengths (silly
maybe?) to hide things like coolers, and to pack away our feast gear
in period-seeming ways (I made up a zillion kettle cloth bags with
grosgrain-ribbon drawstrings. Still have one -- I keep cookie
cutters in it).

brynhildr


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Pavilions ONLY?
From: dicconf at radix.net (Richard Eney)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 15:49:46 -0500

In article <JGr8JA.Fsq at kithrup.com>,
Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt at kithrup.com> wrote:
>BearDrummer <BearDrummer at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>4. We are Creative, not Compulsive.
>
>Please keep in mind, though, that it is dangerous to read any
>deep philosophical or didactic significance into the term
>"Creative Anachronism." You do know that Marion Zimmer Bradley
>made it up on the spur of the moment when she had an East Bay
>Regional Parks form to fill out?

And it was intended to refer to the anachronism of doing
medieval things in the 20th century, _not_ to doing things that
would be anachronistic in a medieval context.

=Tamar the Gypsy


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: djheydt at kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
Subject: Re: Period Pavilions ONLY?
Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd.
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 22:00:09 GMT

Richard Eney <dicconf at radix.net> wrote:
>Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt at kithrup.com> wrote:
>>BearDrummer <BearDrummer at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>4. We are Creative, not Compulsive.
>>
>>Please keep in mind, though, that it is dangerous to read any
>>deep philosophical or didactic significance into the term
>>"Creative Anachronism." You do know that Marion Zimmer Bradley
>>made it up on the spur of the moment when she had an East Bay
>>Regional Parks form to fill out?
>
>And it was intended to refer to the anachronism of doing



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg           Page 69 of 78
>medieval things in the 20th century, _not_ to doing things that
>would be anachronistic in a medieval context.

Well, that is certainly an interpretation that got attached to it
very early on, and it's a good one. I don't promise, however,
that it was consciously in Marion's mind at the time she wrote it
on the form. Remember that the mood of the second tourney was
"That [i.e., the first tourney] was fun, let's do it again!"
[i.e., a second time]. It was in the summer of 1966, between the
second and third, that we all sat around for hours and hours in
Dave Thewlis's house listening to _Carmina Burana_ and thinking,
"My gosh, we could do this *again and again and again!"*

*sigh* Memories....

If only I had a time machine and could go back to that summer.
Knowing what I know now, I would've tried for a few changes from
what we eventually stumbled into doing, particularly in the rank
system. Too late now.

It was fun, though.

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                         Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West                               Vallejo, California
PRO DEO ET REGE                               djheydt at kithrup.com


From: Cathal <cathal at mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 5:45 PM
Subject: [TY] A sad passing
To: meridian-ty at yahoogroups.com

The First Knight of the Society has Passed Away

Submitted by Juana Isabella on Tue, 2008/09/23 - 21:32.
The First Knight of the Society, Sir Ardral Argo Ver Kaeysc, also
known as David the Herald, and known in modern times at David Bradley,
died in his sleep on Thursday, September 11, 2008.
He was 57. He was Diana Listmaker's nephew. A wake will be held for
friends and family.

Sir Ardral was knighted on May 1, A.S. I (modernly 1966) at the very
first tournament of what would become the Society for Creative
Anachronism. The venue (around Berkeley, California) would later
become part of the West Kingdom. His heraldic device, registered in
1971, is blazoned "Sable, a pall argent surmounting a pall inverted
Or."

***The foregoing is from SCAtoday.net***

Cathal.


From: "Elisabeth B. Zakes" <kitharis at gmail.com>
Date: February 24, 2009 11:55:50 AM CST
To: Barony of Bryn Gwlad <bryn-gwlad at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Bryn-gwlad] Lower Legs.

On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 11:41, Eric W. Brown <Brown.EricW at jobcorps.org>
wrote:




Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg           Page 70 of 78
 I was talking to Galen Von Kirkenbaur this weekend, and we were talking about
Why lower legs are "illegal" in heavy combat.

He said he’d talked to one of the "old timers" who’d been there, and
It seemed that instead of a safety issue, like everyone says it was an esthetics
issue.

The way it was explained to me when I started training (1977) was that it was
due to what we were all presumed to be wearing -- chain armour, open-faced helm,
gauntlets, greaves (-not- armour actually worn) -- this has evolved a bit since
then, but not a lot.

Call a face shot of -any- strength good because of the open-faced helm. Hands
and anything knees and below were presumed to be too protected to hit, so we
disallowed it (also reduced the likelihood of broken hands, and dislocated or
otherwise injured knees). Everything else was called as if hit through chain
armour.

Aethelyan Moondragon
Ansteorran fossil


From: Chris Zakes <dontivar at gmail.com>
Date: February 24, 2009 3:40:43 PM CST
To: Barony of Bryn Gwlad <bryn-gwlad at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Bryn-gwlad] Lower Legs.

<<< I was talking to Galen Von Kirkenbaur this weekend, and we were talking
about Why lower legs are "illegal" in heavy combat.

He said he'd talked to one of the "old timers" who'd been there, and
It seemed that instead of a safety issue, like everyone says it was an esthetics
issue. >>>

I've never heard that before, but when I joined in AS 10, lower leg blows were
already illegal. I was always told it was a safety thing.

On the other hand, there's this bit from "The Annals" of John Stowe, published
in 1631, but speaking of the time of Queen Elisabeth, around 1578:

"And in the winter season, all the high streets were much annoyed and troubled
with hourly frays, of sword and buckler men, who took pleasure in that bragging
fight; and although they made great show of much fury, and fought often. Yet
seldom any man hurt, for thrusting was not then in use; neither would one of
twenty strike beneath the waist, by reason they held it cowardly and beastly."

So it's possible that the esthetics issue has some historical validity, too.

        -Tivar Moondragon


Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 11:12:26 -0500
From: Michael Gunter <countgunthar at hotmail.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Masters at Arms
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Ansteorra has had several MoAs and in the early years most
of our high-ranking fighters were Masters. Atenveldt was almost
exclusively Masters for their first years mainly because their
biggest influence was from Duke Richard of Montroyal, MoA.




Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg              Page 71 of 78
I had a friend, Sir Starhelm Warlocke (shows just how old those
days were), who lived in Meredies at the time he was offered
the accolade. He wanted to be a MoA like his teacher at the
time, Duke Lloyd von Eaker. The Crown sent him away saying
they would only make Knights. Unfortunately for the Crown
Starhelm happened to be dating Katherine Kurtz who was
the Steward of the Society at the time. After many angry
words and threats Starhelm was eventually granted the only
"Knight Bachelor" in the Society. He wore a White Belt but
never swore fealty and was not allowed to wear the chain.

When I was approached to be elevated I nearly decided to
become a Master because I never felt I'd be courtly enough
for knighthood. I can see myself as more the weaponsmaster
who teaches the young squires and knights. But I decided that
all my life I wanted to be a knight. Not the same as, but different.
So I was belted and chained and have spent the next two decades
trying to live up to it.

I believe that a knight swears his oath but once and all the other
times are just re-affirmations of that original oath. If I don't kneel
before the Crown and say the words does not mean I'm not in
fealty. I also feel that the knights are the only group this rule
applies to.

Baronies in fief are the only group who are required to swear fealty.
Officers swear oaths of service, which are different.
Any other oaths sworn are gifts of personal fealty to the personages
wearing the Crown.

Yers,
Gunthar


Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 06:28:45 -0400
From: Elaine Koogler <kiridono at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Honey Butter
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 1:29 AM, David Friedman <ddfr at
daviddfriedman.com>wrote:
<<< By the early eighties--or for that matter the early-seventies--there were
lots of period recipes findable. The sort of things you are describing
weren't--and aren't--the result of grabbing whatever medieval/Renaissance
recipe someone could find. They were the result of grabbing modern recipes
that the person doing the grabbing either thought sounded as though they
might be period or liked.
--
David/Cariadoc >>>

They may have been available to those with access to major libraries that
had copies of these books, but to most of us they weren't. I think the
first actual cookbook I saw was "How to Cook Forsoothly," an SCA publication
with recipes of questionable authenticity (though the pea soup recipe is
still one of my favs!!) I did get a copy of the cookbook anthology that
Your Grace put together, but my copy was at best a fourth generation copy,
had four ms pages to a page and was pretty much unreadable. Then a friend
of mine at Virginia Tech managed to get me copies of several books, but the
only actual period book was an early translation (not great) of Platina. I
also acquired, at that time, a copy of Fabulous Feasts. And I had a much
larger library at that point, than did most! I became aware of such books



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg              Page 72 of 78
as "To the King's Taste," "To the Queen's Taste" and "Dining with William
Shakespeare," though it was a long time before I actually acquired copies of
these.

So yes, we did grab whatever we thought was period or whatever we got from
the cooks we learned from (locally, we learned from Sir Tojenareum Grenville
of Devon, whom Your Grace probably knows!). But I think most of us have
also "grabbed" any new sources as we became aware of them!

Kiri


Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 22:40:31 +1000
From: Paul Sleigh <bat at flurf.net>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Grant and Census Committees
To: "The Shambles, the SCA Lochac mailing list" <lochac at sca.org.au>

Al Muckart wrote:
<<< Ahh, I see what you mean. I guess I see Caid and the West as being
sufficiently culturally different now - Caid having separated
(calved?) from the West 34 years ago - that there are meaningful
differences between kingdoms who are now their direct descendants. >>>

I believe they (used to?) talk about two types of kingdom: Kingdoms of
the Word, that got their culture by direct contact with the West (West,
Caid, An Tir) and Kingdoms of the Book, that got their culture through
the Known World Handbook and via long-distance communication (East,
probably Middle, and so on).

If I remember rightly, the difference is explained thus:

Q. How many   kings does it take to change a lightbulb is a Kingdom of the
Book?
A. One, but   only after discussion with the peers and other elders, which
may in many   cases lead to the strong recommendation that the lightbulb
changing be   postponed for a little while so that more options can be
canvassed.

Q. How many kings does it take to change a lightbulb is a Kingdom of the
Word?
A. One, and we'll get on that right away, Sire! No problem! Your Word
is Law! (Right, he's distracted. Hide the ladder until after Coronation.)


This is all, of course, (a) old and (b) second-hand.

: Bat :


Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 15:55:00 +1000
From: "M. Lenehan" <lenehan at our.net.au>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Grant and Census Committees
To: "The Shambles, the SCA Lochac mailing list" <lochac at sca.org.au>

<<< Does anyone know when the first Known World Handbook was published?
Unless it was really early, the East and Middle kingdoms must surely
predate it (they became kingdoms in AS III and IV, I think).

Katherine >>>

Katherine, I believe you are right.



Edited by Mark S. Harris              SCA-hist3-msg          Page 73 of 78
Before the Known World Handbook, there was "A Handbook of the (Current)
Middle Ages" -one edition only I believe. I am sitting with a copy of it in
my lap; I found it when I went looking for our first KWH which I can't find
(but I'm sure it was published about AS15 - I did find a copy of the 20th
year edition). The H.CMA is A4 sized, with about 20 yellowing pages. Rather
charming in an amateurish way, it's been printed by roneo machine, and the
font bears the hallmarks of an old type writer, but still the beating heart
of the Society is strong in this one!

Here's what it reads on the title page;

"A Handbook of the (Current) Middle Ages is published by the Society for
Creative Anachronism, Inc. on a grant from the Baycon Committee to
commemorate the Baycon Tourney, held under the auspices of the Society for
Creative Anachronism Inc., September 2nd, 1968, at the 26th World Science
Fiction Convention. Special thanks are in order to Alva Rogers, Bill Donaho,
and J. Ben Stark, co-chairman of the Baycon committee, without whom this
handbook would not have been possible."

There you are, a date! I think Baycon was held in San Francisco and this
event may have been the launching point for the West to spread the word and
the seeds of other Kingdoms. I think it had a lot to do with the start of
Caid but I'm only going by a memory plucked from the murky depths.

It is interesting to note that there is nothing written about the start of
the Society, nor about how decisions are made, except that it outlines the
roles of the BOD, and the Seneschal, explaining that the BOD was a
convenience to meet legal requirements of the State of California. It makes
no reference to any other Kingdom or State.

According to the intro chapter on what the SCA is, Knights and Laurels are
the only Patents. Kings cannot succeed themselves, (second-time Kings are
Dukes) and everything revolves around the Crown Tournament. The intro also
states that because they are not into being a spectacle for the sneering
masses, pre 1650 garb is required of everyone (no hint of how the
Conventioneers coped with that one at the Tourney). The other articles are
Scribes, garb making, armour and weapon making, and fighting techniques. No
heraldry except a laurel wreath, no cultural practises referenced.

I hope this was useful and/or interesting.

Maddie


To:   CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Date:    Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:21:40 EST
From:    Fernando Vigil <Fvigil at AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Question ASAP - one

Okay I've done a bit of checking on this matter, and the more I look the
more clear it is that reason for the SCA's ending date has essentially been
obfuscated by the passing years. But this is what I've found:

The flyer for the First Tournament in 1966 did not include any date at   all.

Within the first year of the Society 1650 appeared on some flyers. It has
been reported that Diana Listmaker (the host of the First Tournamnet stated
that this was a typo, and that she had originally meant 1150, but if this
is true, 1150 is likely not any more easily defended date than 1600 or 1650.




Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg           Page 74 of 78
In 1968, Queen Carol's Guide (a newcomers guide to the SCA commissioned by
Her Majesty Carol of Beletrix) stated that our period went to 1650, but in
the same year the SCA's Articles of Incorporation were filed with
"Pre-Seventeenth Century" (that is to say pre-1600). To confuse things a bit
further, one of the signers of those original Articles was Diana Paxson (lnown
as Diana Listmaker)

Things get even more confusing because some of the early members report
that at in the early years the cut off date for the fighting standards was
1450, and the cut off date the heralds used has changed as well.

Now, none of that really answers the question of why these dates... But
I'm honestly not sure there was B) a well thought out reason, or B)
necessarily an agreement as to the reason.

Fernando

PS. The most interesting thing about this for me is that despite it having
been only 40 years ago, and despite our near universal literacy and
amazingly improved communications, we still can't answer a simple question like
this with confidence. What does this tell us about the accuracy of period
accounts of battles, political situations, or tournaments - especially those
that were chronicled years later by folks who were not there....


From: "Cynfyn ap Rhydderch MacCulloch" <cynfynsca at gmail.com>
Date: May 31, 2011 10:08:44 PM CDT
To: <the-triskele-tavern at googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: {TheTriskeleTavern} Random Question from a (still) semi-newbie

Stefan,

Here is the breakdown of the Kingdoms of the Known World, when they were
created and what areas they cover:
  1. The West Kingdom was created when the Society originated in 1966. It
currently includes Northern California, most of Nevada, and Alaska, as well
as Japan, Korea, and the Pacific Rim (excluding Australia and New Zealand).
  2. The Kingdom of the East was created in 1968. In the United States it
covers eastern Pennsylvania, eastern New York, Delaware, New Jersey,
Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine.
In Canada, it covers Quebec, Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, New
Brunswick, and Newfoundland.
  3. The Middle Kingdom was created in 1969. Its current borders include
Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, lower Michigan, and parts of Kentucky, Iowa and
Ontario.
  4. The Kingdom of Atenveldt was created in 1971. It originally
encompassed all the lands between the West, East, and Middle Kingdoms, and
now consists of the state of Arizona, along with small parts of Utah and
California.
  5. The Kingdom of Meridies was created in 1978 from the Kingdom of
Atenveldt. Its borders currently encompass the entirety of Alabama; almost
all of Georgia; all of Middle and East Tennessee, plus a substantial portion
of West Tennessee; a bit of the panhandle of Florida; and small portions of
both Kentucky and Virginia.
  6. The Kingdom of Caid was created in 1978 from the Kingdom of the West.
It currently encompasses Southern California, the Las Vegas metropolitan
area, and Hawaii.
  7. The Kingdom of Ansteorra was created in 1979 from the Kingdom of
Atenveldt. Ansteorra covers Oklahoma and most of Texas as well as the
International Space Station.
  8. The Kingdom of Atlantia was created in 1981 from the Kingdom of the



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg           Page 75 of 78
East. Its borders cover Maryland, most of Virginia, North Carolina, and
South Carolina, as well as Augusta, Georgia.
  9. The Kingdom of An Tir was created in 1982 from the Kingdom of the
West. It encompasses the US states of Oregon, Washington, and the northern
tips of Idaho, and in Canada it covers British Columbia, Alberta,
Saskatchewan, the Yukon, and the Northwest Territories.
 10. The Kingdom of Calontir was created in 1984 from the Kingdom of the
Middle. It covers Kansas, Missouri, Iowa, Nebraska, and the 727xx Zip Code
area around Fayetteville, Arkansas.
 11. The Kingdom of Trimaris was created in 1985. It was split from the
Kingdom of Meridies and is composed of the majority of Florida, as well as
Panama, and falsely but humorously, Antarctica (although see Lochac, below).
Also, as a triskele (the Trimaris symbol) was sent into space on a
shuttle[citation needed], Trimaris claims space.
 12. The Kingdom of the Outlands was created in 1986 from the Kingdom of
Atenveldt. It encompasses New Mexico, most of Colorado, parts of Wyoming,
the panhandle of Nebraska, as well as El Paso County and Hudspeth County of
Texas.
 13. The Kingdom of Drachenwald was created in 1993 from the Kingdom of the
East. It is by far the largest kingdom in terms of land area, but not in
population. It covers all of Europe (including islands), Africa, and the
Middle East. In a humorous twist, it achieved its independence on the Fourth
of July.
 14. The Kingdom of Artemisia was created in 1997 from the Kingdom of
Atenveldt. It currently covers Montana, southern Idaho, most of Utah,
northwestern Colorado, and southwestern Wyoming.
 15. The Kingdom of Æthelmearc was created in 1997 from the Kingdom of the
East. It covers northeastern/central/western Pennsylvania, central/western
New York, and West Virginia.
 16. The Kingdom of Ealdormere was created in 1998 from the Kingdom of the
Middle. It comprises most of the Canadian province of Ontario.
 17. The Kingdom of Lochac was created in 2002 from the Kingdom of the West
(Australia) and the Kingdom of Caid (New Zealand). It encompasses the
entirety of Australia and New Zealand, and was granted prior title by the
Board of the Society to the Australian administered parts of Antarctica, in
contradiction of the later claim put forward by the Kingdom of Trimaris.
 18. The Kingdom of Northshield was created in 2004 from the Kingdom of the
Middle. It covers North Dakota, South Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and the
upper peninsula of Michigan. It also extends into Canada, encompassing
Manitoba and northwestern Ontario.
 19. The Kingdom of Gleann Abhann was created in 2005 from the Kingdom of
Meridies. It covers Mississippi, Louisiana, most of Arkansas, and the
western edge of Tennessee including the Memphis area.

YIS,
Ld Cynfyn ap Rhydderch MacCulloch (called Kwasi)

-----Original Message-----
From: the-triskele-tavern at googlegroups.com
[mailto:the-triskele-tavern at googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stefan li Rous
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 10:32 PM
To: the-triskele-tavern at googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {TheTriskeleTavern} Random Question from a (still) semi-newbie

19 kingdoms? ! They added a few more when I wasn't looking. :-)    I'd
have said 17 or 18. And that is a much larger number than when I
joined in 1988.

I guess that statement works as an overall, brief statement. It's not
unlike what I say, but it's so... dry. so.. empty. The SCA is really
so much more. And it differs for each participant. I have whole, large



Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg           Page 76 of 78
files in the Florilegium about what brought different people into the
SCA and what keeps them here.

Stefan


Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 14:18:53 -0700
From: "Frederick J. Hollander" <flieg at berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Some heraldic answers
To: The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list <lochac at lochac.sca.org>

((The clouds of lurking dissolve from around a bearded figure wearing a
simple tunic and a totally disreputable once-brown floppy hat.))

Flieg here --

  Bats, how dare you be reasonable!

  Two comments --

  There have been recent tests of color copier images. Inadvertent
ones, but tests. The answer is color shifts occurred over a time period
of *days* while the submission was en-route from the submitter to the
Kingdom heralds office by way of the US Postal Service. (This was in
the USA, not Australia.)

  About Society for Creative Anachronism: An anachronism is something
that is "out of its proper time", like our entire attempt at re-creating
aspects of the original Middle Ages. It has nothing to do with our
failure to accurately re-create them. The name exists because a clerk
at the reservation office for the East Bay Regional Parks District
(Approximate location: Oakland, California, USA) had a line to fill in
on the reservation sheet.

"What is the name of the group?" was the question asked of the small
group of people who were reserving the park. (This was in 1966, AS I.)

"Uh...." they said, intelligently.

"Put down 'Society for Creative Anachronism'," said Marion Breen (better
known to all as Marion Zimmer-Bradley), so the clerk wrote down Society
for Creative Anachronism, and the rest is history.

Her explanation of her choice of words, as I have heard it, is that we
were Creative and we were creating Anachronism. And now you know.

((The mists of lurking reform and the figure fades into the electronic
background.))

On 6/24/2011 1:55 PM, Paul Sleigh wrote:
<<< I was going to stay out of this discussion, because nothing kills a
good rant like some facts and perspective, and I like a good rant as
much as the next wild-eyes, spittle-flecked lunatic. But when even
heralds start saying silly things, with or without punctuation, then
it's time to inject some reality into the proceedings. I don't expect
it'll help, but I have to be seen to be trying...
[.trim.]>
* The Word "Anachronism"

A short, snarky word on this: the word Society reminds us that we are
a world-wide community. The word Creative reminds us that we strive



Edited by Mark S. Harris              SCA-hist3-msg        Page 77 of 78
toward the goal of building things that are worth building. The word
Anachronism reminds us that nobody is perfect. The first two words
are aspirational; the third is because group names also need nouns.
The first two words give us something to work toward; the last one
most certainly does not give us an excuse to give up when it's all a
bit too hard.
[.trim.]

: Bat, Mortar Herald : >>>


Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:14:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Stephen Kiefert <lanhamlaw at att.net>
To: atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: [MR] daily kingdom history fact 10

In December 1985, the SCA Board of Directors revoked the fighter authorizations
of all fighters under the age of fourteen.

Stefan of Cambion
Kingdom Historian


Subject: Re: A question
Posted by: "Erik Telemark" irongld at gmail.com irongld
Date: Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:44 am ((PDT))

SCA time was an old and cherished custom back in 1973 (A.S.7)

Erik

On Oct 20, 2011, at 9:07 AM, "first" <greenshield at hotmail.com> wrote:

<<< The concept of SCA time has always been with us. It's been that way since I
started in 1984 and it was and old concept by that time. I'd suspect the "1st
party" wasn't on time either. Is it a good thing? Probably not considering all
the activities that go on during an event but it is something to expect and work
around.

C >>>

<the end>




Edited by Mark S. Harris           SCA-hist3-msg           Page 78 of 78

								
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