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INTERVIEW W ITH REUBEN AYALA
By. Kent Schofield
October 9, 2002
RA: Reuben Ayala
KS: Kent Schofield
KS: It's October 9 th , it's 2:20 in the afternoon. I'm Kent Schofield and I'm
talking to Senator Reuben Ayala in his office in Rancho Cucamonga. We were
going to talk about your campaign against George Brown.
RA: Yes, shortly after my re-election to the Board, I think it was about a year
or two later, a new district was created and the area which was being changed
-everything has to change as you go, and it had no incumbent. So George
Brown and I ran on the democratic side, there were five of us running, and
three or four on the Republican side, and it took over Corona/Riverside
too. The district at that time was quite liberal under today's criteria.
Today it's not that liberal anymore, the area that that district represented
at the time . George Brown had been a congressman for Monterey Park,
but he chose to run for Senate against Tunney, and Tunney beat him for the
Senate so George was out of a job. But then this district open up and he
came in from Monterey and got an apartment in Colton where he, I
understand all he had was a bed where he slept and that's it, which is fine -
politics. I carried San Bernardino County, but he beat me in Riverside. He
beat me - well, I understand that less than 1,000 votes as I recall and there
was obviously thousands of votes and people would ask me, "Ask for a
recount, ask for a recount" I said, 'No, I won't do that." The republican
candidate winner of the primary was Snyder, Howard Snyder was then
Mayor of Ontario and George just beat him with no problem at all in the
general. George and I are good friends (we were that is , he's no longer
with us). You know, we had a nice campaign and I remember that one of
our debates was at the Union Hall in Fontana, the Steelworkers who were
all for George because he was very liberal and union-minded. I’ll never
forget that because all of us were sitting in the front row and they called us up
to the platform to give our spiel and of course we're all nervous you
know , within ourselves, we don't say it but you know we’re kind of waiting
to get up and say what we had to say. So we get up there kind of tense, all
of us except George. He came up there with a wrinkled coat that looks like
he slept in it and a tie that he probably didn't even take the knot off for the
evening. He took out his pipe, he got to the microphone and he was
speaking to the people cleaning his pipe. I mean so relaxed I could have
punched him in the nose. All of us were tight about the fact that we were
debating each other, but he was so relaxed, you know, veteran politician.
I guess the rest of us were not that experienced with that type of a
partisan, at least I wasn't, you know I went out for Supervisor. So I
lost that race, which is the only one I lost in all my 22 other races, which
included primaries and special elections and general elections. I ran about
22 or 23 times. But you know, as luck would have it, the senate seat opened up
a year later, which you know of course I was crushed that I had lost you
know. Nobody likes to lose and I just hate to lose, I'm a poor loser. But the
senate seat Combs resigned about a year later and I had my chance. I
remember that Jerry Lewis, who went to Congress after he served, you
know from the senate when Jerry Pettis got killed in a crash and his wife
replaced him in Congress and then she chose not to run again. Jerry Lewis'
friend had got elected since. He's an excellent representative I think.
Anyway, I often wandered, in fact Jerry Lewis asked me one day, "You
know I often wonder Reuben who won that election, that congressional
election." He said, "You know after I lost the election I went to Congress." I
said, "Well, it all depends how you look at this thing, Jerry, Mine is a
four-year term, yours is a two-year term. I'm 500 miles from home, I can
get home in an hour and you’re 3,000 miles away, 2,500 or whatever, and it
takes you a long time to get home on the red eye special that you take Sunday
night. I'm a chairman of a committee, how long will it take you to be chairman
of a committee in Congress? I represent more people than you do in the
senate and I feel that I'm making an impact because I'm already chairman
of a committee and I serve on different good committees. I'm one vote out of 40
and you’re one vote out of what?"
KS: 435.
RA: "435, so I don't know who won that." He said he won it because he was
in Congress you see? But I don't know. Maybe I would have worked it out,
but when I look back I think I came out very well in terms of serving the public in
my district at the Senate level in California.
KS: Now in that campaign you indicated that Brown carried Riverside County.
RA : Ye s.
KS: And you were more powerful in San Bernardino County.
RA: In San Bernardino County.
KS: Did that include Fontana? Because you said the union tended to be in
favor of Brown.
RA : O h ye a h , we ll I d id n 't win a ll t h e citie s, b u t a s I re ca ll I lo st a
h igh e r percentage of Riverside County. There were some people running for
Riverside County in the primary, a guy name Tuna, Dave Tuna was a field
representative for Congressman Tunney and he was running for the office.
I don't know what ever happened to him, but I know that he was so angry
that he didn't get the primary, that George won instead of him. In fact, he
didn't come close to me, you know, where I came in, in the voting. He
turned around and endorsed a republican in the general election - Howard
Snyder, and he had lunch with me and wanted me to do that. I said, "No,
I'm not going to do that," That didn't show me that he was really sincere in
serving the democratic majority that was then quite liberal. It isn't that
liberal anymore, and if the boundaries were the same, and the election
were held today, I think I would have a better chance of winning that
seat.
KS: Now were there substantial differences in terms of issues between you
and Brown?
RA: Well yes, major issues. I remember that I went to U.C.R. They invited me
to speak to the students and George Brown had been there the day before
and I like to tell this story because it's funny now. Everything that he was
for, I was pretty much against. George was in favor of legalizing marijuana,
because the students - that was in the early 70's, they're out there on the
lawn with no shirts and maybe some of them under drugs, I don't know.
But anyway they were all for marijuana and I said no. They asked me the
question, they said, "Well George Brown was here yesterday and he's for
it." I said, "Well until I get scientific and medical research telling me that
marijuana is all right, that it doesn't hurt you, that it doesn't." you know, a lot
of the people at the narcotics center in Norco, a lot of - I know for a fact
because I was in the Prison Management for California when I was in my
last few years in the Senate, they all started with marijuana and at the end
- that after all wasn't enough so they went on to a higher, you know,
harder drugs. And I said, "Until I get that recommendation from the
scientific and medical world that indeed it's not hurting people I can't
support it." They said, "What about these people that are going to Canada
instead of serving in Viet Nam and George was giving them a blanket
amnesty?" I said, "No, I don't want to do that. My son is in Viet Nam today.
He didn't run. He's out there now serving, so I think we should take each
case after they want to come back one-by-one and find out why and see if
they've got a good reason to." Well, no, that didn't go over too well
either. Then what was the other - I think it was abortion or something,
but we differed in so many things. In fact, everything he was for I was
against. George, very liberal, nice guy. In fact, when I got through they
were sitting out in the sun you know, all these guys without shirts and
things around their heads you know.
KS: Head bands
RA: Head bands you know. This was in the early 70's Viet Nam era, and when
I got through I says, "Are there any questions out there?" Nobody. I thought
oh my God somebody should have a question. And then some guy comes up
to the microphone and he had long hair and I made the mistake of saying,
"Yes, ma'am do you have a question?" and everybody just roared, so I got off
to a bad start. He stood there for a while; he didn't laugh, he didn't think it
was funny at all (this young fellow). Then he said to me, "Mr. Supervisor."
I said, 'Yes." He says, "Who else is running?" Everyone just roared you
know. So I could see my car in the parking lot up there you know. I said, God
I wish I was over there. I should get a purple heart for getting to my car from
these guys you know. But you know if you were to ask me then how long
would it take for this thing to turn around and have young people going to
college, you know, the majority -just interested in studies and learning a
profession or something and not just going out there like they were in the
early '70's. I would have said, "God I hope I live long enough to see it" Well, I
don't think I was out of the Supervisor's, yeah, I was still Fifth Supervisor, I
went to Chaffey and God they were beginning to change. The kids were
asking me, "Well do you know anything about the housing at Stanford
for students; and do you know how many people are accepted at Cal
Berkeley and they were interested - not drugs or other things and I came
home to my wife, "You know I never dreamed it would turn around that
quickly. We still have a few out there and we always will, but I mean the
vast majority of the students are interested in really learning and going
to school for that purpose, not just to hang out. So I had that experience
with the Riverside crowd that this young fella asked me, "Who else is
running" I look back and I thought it was real funny. I didn't think it was
funny then, but anyway.
KS: You also said that you'd been talking to a group of union people in Fontana.
How did that particular exchange go? You said George Brown was very
relaxed and so forth.
RA: Well, well...
KS: And he obviously had support from unions?
RA: He, oh well the union escorted him in, you know. A big fella brought him
up. He was, you know George Brown, former Congressman. He just moved
in, but he was a Congressman. He was, well the union, he had the union in the
palm of his hands. They were all for him because he was very much - in fact
the only time I know that he broke with the union was when he supported
NAFTA, is that what that is, with Mexico and tariffs, that there's no
additional tariff for crossing and bringing the goodies back here.
KS: Right, NAFTA.
RA: NAFTA, he went for that and I think unions were after him for that. That
was years later, many years later, and I would have opposed that when I
- I was asked and I said I oppose it. I felt t hat American industry would
move to Mexico and only take with them the technical people - you know the
engineers and all these people. Because they got the workers over there,
they work for nothing. See they don't give any benefits, any retirement,
no they're just paying minimum wage. Then they save money, then they
bring it over here to this country and maybe sell it with the same price, but
the cost of making it is much less than doing it here, so they still make a
profit. So the rank and file workers, in my opinion, didn't benefit by that
because they lost their jobs. So again, the people that benefit the most
were people that were taken over to Mexico by the company who were
professional people, maybe the scientists and engineers, which Mexico
probably couldn't produce. The workers came out of the ranks in Mexico
and they paid them nothing. So I think the unions were right on that score
not to do it because I think, again, as much as I like to see other countries
improve their standard of living, I think that charity begins at home. W e
should take care of our folks first. I often thought, when the president
says that after we get rid of the dictator up there in Iraq that then we're
going to set up the country, we're going to take care of them and all that, I
often wondered if one of these days Castro is going to declare war on us in
the morning and then call it off at noon and then have all of us go in there
and help him bring up the country and put in tax dollars to help his country
once we defeat him you see. So I don't know, I don't know about what the
president says, we are going to go in there and get rid of the regime. I
have some questions about that (although I don't think this is the time for
that), but I'm not quite clear what's taking place and I’d like to think that
the president is right because if not, well as a matter of fact he can't lose.
The president can't lose with this philosophy because if we go in there and
find that they do have the nuclear weapons, well not nuclear yet, but weapons
of mass destruction, and destroy them you see, they had them. But if we go
in there and find nothing he's going to be embarrassed because we go in
there assuming that Iraq gave us unfettered entrance to everywhere,
otherwise I'm with him on that. You can't allow any areas not to be searched.
But if we search all aver Iraq and then find that there's no evidence of what
they're saying, it would be embarrassing. That's why they want to strike
and say well we destroyed them during our air raids you know. But if
something happens before that he'll say, "Well I told you we've got to go in
there and we've got to arm ourselves, we've got to strike first." So I don't
know if he's been accused of doing it because the economy is going to pot
all over the country he's trying to avert. He couldn't, he wasn't able to find
this terrorist yet - what is his name? Bin Laden,
KS: Osama Bin Laden.
PA: They haven't found him and I don't hear anything said about him anymore, you
know that's another project over there, so now we're going into Iraq,
which from what I read there's no evidence that they were involved
with that September 11th tragedy. So we’re going into Iraq, yet we haven't
completed the other mission. Although I have to admit I'm not an expert on
those issues, I'm just trying to make common sense with the little information
that I have.
KS: Now, just to get back to the unions and George Brown for a moment,
how is your relationship with unions, let's say once you were in the senate.
PA: Off and on. Because I supported them when I thought they were right
and I directly opposed them when I didn't think they were. I was against
them when binding arbitration for local elected officials - councilmen,
school board members and supervisors. I was totally against binding
arbitration. I think we elect councilmen and mayors and school board
members and supervisors to run their jurisdiction and if we don't like what
they are doing we can get someone else in their place. I don't want
someone, for instance from Denver, coming in and being the third party
that breaks the - after they go through all these loopholes and all these
loops and all this sort of thing they exhaust all of the negotiating efforts and
then the employees union name a negotiator or someone to speak for them
and then management, they name someone and then I think they name the
two names of the third one. Well the third ones the one that is powerful. He
can go either way. He can go either way and they're never from the area.
They're from Denver, San Francisco, San Diego, New York, the
arbitrators. So when they decide, for instance in terms of salaries, what
the salary is going to be, they leave town. They go back to their home,
wherever they are from San Diego, maybe San Francisco, and we have to
put up with it. Now before Prop 13 the only way that the cities could meet
those standards was to raise taxes. You know the city doesn't make any
money from any other source, so everybody would have to pay, and if you
went to the mayor and said Mr. Mayor or Madam Mayor, "My tax went up."
Well they could truthfully say, "Well it wasn't our doing. This guy from
San Diego did it." "No, no, no, I elected you. You're the one that, you
have to respond to me." "Well I can't, it was out of our hands." "Well then why
do we have city councilmen?' Now, the employees think that it favors them
most of the time, it probably does. But I know that in Chicago at one time
the firemen were sorry they did it with the arbitration, which is binding on the
employer and the employees, because the arbitrator voted in support of the
city. But in Oakland, here's one town that's going broke because the firemen
were getting paid so well because of binding arbitration and there was
nothing the city fathers could do. Now, in private enterprise it's
diff erent. If Kaiser f or instance wants to have binding arbitration
with their employees, and they do, and the cost of steel goes up, if you
don't buy a refrigerator or a car or something that has steel, you don't have
to pay for it. You don't have to pay for it. But if it's a city or county or
school district they only get money from you. But if the cost goes up, you
have to pay it whether you like it or not, whether you benefit or not. So I
went round and round with the firemen in Sacramento. In fact they
picketed one of my fundraisers at the Orange Show because I wouldn't
support binding arbitration. I still wouldn't do it today and I told them
directly, I didn't kid around. I said, "I'm against it,"
KS: Now you're opposed to binding arbitration for public employees? Is that it or?
RA: Public employees, yeah. You know because the only way that the public
agency can meet those additional costs is through more taxes, and private
enterprise, if you don't buy their product you don't have to pay for it. But I
still maintain that that's why we elect city councilmen; that's why we
elect school board members; and that's why we elect the board of
supervisors and special district representatives, because we want them to
run it for us. We don't say you can run it until the employees don't like it,
then they take over. I wouldn't support that. But I've supported other
union functions that I thought were fair. I supported the bill for the
farm workers to be able to negotiate, although Dukmajian took all the
money out of the agency when he was governor. I debated Ken Witty one
day on radio in Sacramento on that issue, and his final shot was that, "Until
we get rid of Jerry Brown it will all be the farm workers winning." I said,
"W ell you're telling me Senator Matty that if the next governor is
republican then the growers are going to win, so it doesn't make sense.
Shouldn't it be a method where it's fair? I don't care who the governor is,
republican, democrat or independent whatever, but if you're just going to go
every time we change governors and one is a democrat supporting the
farm workers and one is a republican supporting industry, we'll never
accomplish anything. This would be forever." I don't know how the binding
arbitration bill that he signed today, like I said, I wasn't against binding
arbitration for the private industry, and this is, farm workers is private
industry. I don't know how it's going to tie the hands of the farmers and again
we're going to pay through their produce they produce. If it goes up we're
going to pay for it. But on the other hand you cannot pay salaries and wages
that these poor folks can't live on. That's wrong. Obviously you can’t pay
them executive wages, but pay them livable wages so they can, you know
as long as they're doing that kind of work they can at least survive in their
families. So having picked grapes and figs in Merced between my
junior/senior year, I know what they experience and it was worse than it is
today. So I'm with the farm workers except when they abuse the
employers and I'm with the employers when the employers abuse them or
vice versa. I'm just trying to be as neutral as I can and be fair. I don't think
I favor the employers or the employees at all. I don't do it here in this
work. But again, this binding arbitration, I don't know what the
governor was concerned about other than the farmers that provided
a lot of financial support for his campaign, and obviously the farm
workers can’t. In fact, some of the money might not even be citizens. But the
other unions come in and help their brothers and sisters, you know, in the
union. That's what Davis was afraid of; that if he says no to the farm workers
all the other unions that support him will probably go sour on him. It isn't
because of the farm workers union, they're not that powerful by
themselves, but they have all these other unions that would come in and
help them with their cause. I support that. Davis never told me that, but I
said, well that was why he signed the bill.
KS: Now do you have the same attitude towards let’s say teachers unions?
RA: The what?
KS: Teachers unions.
RA: Absolutely.
KS: Since you were on the school board.
RA: I don't think they should have binding arbitration. I think that we're so
critical of our educational institutions. I just heard it on radio the other
day the percentage of new teachers are the ones that are not doing as
well as those who'd been in it for a while. I suggest to you that I know in the
past I knew of some people that would have preferred to have been
doing the teacher profession, but because the pay wasn't all that good, and
then they have put up with the parents and put up with the kids who are not
disciplined at home and if you do it at school the parents come after you.
I know one teacher told me that one parent went up there and said, "You
know I'm paying your wages. I'm a taxpayer and you don't do that to my kid."
Well you know in the private school I guess that doesn't happen because,
and I'm not supportive of private school, I am a public school graduate, so is
my wife and my three kids. We all graduated from Chino High School and I
support public schools. I think that we've got to pay these people at the
entrance level an attractive salary schedule. But be able to segregate that
teacher which has, you could see who has the potential and those that
don't. I'll never forget one year when I was on the school board, the
superintendent in executive session was talking about a teacher that he
wanted to hire for the fourth year, the tenure. I reminded him, I said,
"Well Mr. Collins (he was the superintendent, no he was the principal
then, a superintendent once), we have reports here that you gave him
some negative grades in the semester and you're recommending him for
tenure." He says, "Yes, because this young fella has the potential of
someday being a good teacher." I said, "Wait, what about the kids
between now and then? These kids can't wait until this individual becomes
a good teacher. You can't do that," So he didn't get tenure because he
thought he had some potential. Well, if you don't show any progress over
the three years that you have before you get tenure I don’t know. But, you
know, we're not talking - you know, a machinist, if he puts a piece of steel on
the lathe and he ruins it he can take it out, throw it away and put a new one
in. But if a teacher ruins a kid, you can't throw him out and replace him. You
know we're talking about humans, and as far as I'm concerned teach
them. Boy I got a teacher in two of my sons teaching you know (well, only
one teaching now), and when I was on the board we used to have some nice
long discussions about managing vs. the employees you know. I think that
teaching is a noble profession. Actually these are the people that are the
backbone of our society because they start teaching these kids how to
be better citizens, especially now where a lot of parents themselves don't'
know how to do it, and they don’t even try. So it’s up to the teacher to be
a teacher and at the same time be a mother or a father to guide the kids.
I'm surprised so many kids survive that kind of an environment where
they don't get any guidance at home and you know that a lot of them
don't. A lot of them do of course and they're not all bad; but more so than
ever, more parents are not responsible the way they should be for their
kids. So I would like to see that we pay the teachers and it's not because of
my family, my oldest son is ready to retire anyway. But starting, the starting
entrance salaries should be raised. Of course everybody else is going to
have to be raised as well. I think you can be more selective that way. You
can be more choosey as to who you select to teach and who doesn't. The
mere fact that you have a credential to teach doesn't make you a
teacher. I think that counseling is so important. When I was on the board
they had a report, a national survey showed that Juanita couldn't read
and oh my gosh you know, what's going on? I really don't know what the
answer is, but it seems to me that we have counselors (this is in a board
meeting) that are teachers and I guess they get additional credits and they
become counselors. You know what? These teachers in our area here , in
our district, a lot of them live out of town." I said, "You know it comes
3:00 or 4:00 o'clock and the day is over for them, they just leave. They go
up there and they forget all about their job, which is okay. You really
shouldn't take it with you I guess, but what they ought to do, in my opinion,
is that they should go down to the barrio and find out why Juanita is not
learning how to read. Talk to the mother. Talk to the father. Talk to the
uncle and the older brother. Talk to the priest and the minister, and ask
why is Juanita is unable to read? Let's find out. Unless you find out what's
wrong you can't correct it." And these counselors, they get through the
day, they go up to their home and they don't give it a thought and they come
back and counsel these kids, come 3:00 o'clock and they're gone again.
They're not interested in their end product students. They ought to be
more concerned. Now maybe they get more training today, but the mere
fact that I get additional training, additional units, again doesn't make
me a counselor. You know, you've got to really be dedicated to the cause.
What we need I think is probably more dedication, not only in teaching,
but in other areas as well. I think we are lacking in that respect because I
think that a lot of, you know, we are dealing with a precious commodity, our
children. You know, our future citizens of this country, future leaders, and
we've got to give them a good start. You cannot give them a good start if
the teachers themselves aren't all that good. I had some good teachers
and I had some bad teachers. You had some good teachers and some bad
teachers. I had some good coaches that really showed me to be
competitive and want to be a better person. I admire them. One of them
is still living, Frank Elder, They did it by , they taught by demonstration.
They themselves were good human beings, you know, good role models. And
I don't think too many teachers are role models anymore. As a matter of fact
I'm going to be real critical. I go to the schools and I'm amazed by the way
they dress.
KS: How the teachers dress,
RA: Pardon me.
KS: How the teachers dress.
RA: Teachers.
KS Yes.
RA: The guys in shorts, no tie, and women the same thing. You know the
teachers that I had always wore a tie and a suit. Now that didn't make
them better teachers, but you know it made you feel that they were
important and they were good role models and, 'gee I want to be able
to dress like him or something. But this kid sits there and you know they
need a shave and, you know I don't know. I don't want to be too
critical, but I guess I've been exposed to all these things that I feel that
we need to turn this around and I don't have the slightest idea how to do
it. I don't know how to do it. But a teacher, when I was in school, you know
I used to think teachers were up here you know? They're teachers. I'll never
forget when I became a member of the school board how disappointed I was
that some of the teachers came over to make a presentation and their
behavior, their vocabulary a lot of times, and these are teachers you know?
And so if we are going to be leaders of kids, of students, we've got to be role
model as well and practice what we preach. I think that our colleges are
putting out good material, but not all of them are engineers, not all of them
are teachers, not all of them are doctors when they get through with
medical school. As you well know, for instance in medical school when
you graduate you've got doctors that graduate at the top of their class and
one at the bottom of the class and they all get the same diploma. They all
hang their shingle up there you know when you walk in and they're all
graduates of Stanford Medical School you know, but one is at the top, one's
at the bottom. That's true of any profession I guess. You've got good
legislators and you've got lousy legislators. I'm not just saying that about
teachers, but the only thing is that legislators are a result of people voting for
them, putting them there. They don't have to put them in if they don't think
they're doing the job. Teachers, once they get tenure, it takes quite a
bit to get them discharged you know - morals or something else. It’s
very difficult to. And then we've got the teachers union, they're going to
come fighting you if you try to displace one of the teachers. Look at this
girl in San Bernardino from Eisenhower. Eisenhower, is it?
KS: Cajon.
RA: Where she took this kid.
KS: You mean the one that took that student to Los Vegas?
RA: Yeah, can you imagine? I can't even dream of something like that
happening when I was going to school. You know I, in my mind to think
that this is a possibility nowadays. You know what? When I talk this way do
you know what my wife says? You're getting too old. You've been around too
long. Maybe she's right.
KS: Okay let's change tapes here.
KS: I'm speaking with Senator Reuben Ayala on the 9th of October 2002.
RA: You know having experienced in my early beginnings difficulty in
times of depression like everybody did, but especially those of us who
lived in the Mexican barrio so-called at the time. I guess they still call them
that once in a while. But it was a double whammy you know for us at the
time. We had people from Arkansas and Oklahoma corning during the
depression to work the fields. You've probably seen the movie Grapes of
Wrath. They were taking the jobs of the Hispanics who were here before the
depression doing that kind of work. I don't know if there were any
clashes out in the field about that, but I remember that the only thing
is that these people that came from Oklahoma and Arkansas and other
areas, after the depression was over they got lost in the shuffle. But the
Hispanics couldn't do that; they were still Hispanics you see, they couldn't
move out of that area because they were still Hispanic no matter what. But the
others that came from other states, as soon as things straightened out they
got lost in the shuffle and nobody knew where they came from and nobody
cared, which is the way it should be. But I look back and I say well what is it
- why me? Why me and my brother? I was asked that many times by
people in the barrio who says, "Well all these people here are still
working the fields and so forth, why you and your brother? You were
born right there, my brother was born right there on Second Street. I
said , "I don't know. I really don't know, other than perhaps our pa rents
loved us differently. Everybody loves their kids, everybody". Nobody
tells you, 'My father loves me more than your father loves you: You can't
say that. It's just differently because my father, although he was not
necessarily a field worker, he worked during the depression in the fields
because there was nothing else to do. He did have some kind of a
semi-skilled work, you know working on the pumps and so forth dealing
with the water. He was big on education. I said that many times. One of the
reasons is because he never had one. He probably had about a fourth grade
education. He told me and my brother several times you know, "I don't
want you to be like me, I want you to be better, improve yourself. I want
you to go to school." So first of all you have to have role models you
know. I said that earlier about role models. I was very fortunate and my
brother was very fortunate. We had role models in my father and my Aunt
Esther (because my mother was gone). They liked us; they cared for us
you know. I'm not trying to say that the other parents didn't like their
kids, but we were disciplined. We were extremely disciplined at home, which
was not true of other families, number one. I was probably 17 when I still
would ask my dad, "I'm going to go out to the softball field to play softball."
Today I see kids when I go home from some of the meetings, they can't be
over six years old, three of four of them walking down the street. I couldn't
do that when I was a little boy. If I had said, "Dad, I'm going over " I never
said, "May I," I said, "I'm going to go up there" - I don't mean to say I never
did, but when I was 17 I didn't say, "May I go?" I would say, "I'm going to,"
and I would make it a point to tell him. If he was out on the front lawn I
would go up and tell him before I left. We had a branch of the County library
in Chino. The building is still there but they use it for something else. It's
a little tiny thing. That's where my wife and I would meet to do our
homework. We were going steady and we would go there; she only lived
about three blocks from there. I lived in the barrio. She lived a couple of
blocks from the library. We would meet there to do our homework and that's
why I kept my grades up because she was there. I didn't see any other kids
from the barrio there. I never saw any. Maybe there were but I never
noticed. I remember my dad would always tell me, "Oh sure. But if I want
to find you that's where I want to find you. I don't want to be looking all
over town for you.' So I said, 'Well I'm going to the library and then I'm
going over to the football field to play ball " He'd say, "Okay, that's where
I'm going to look for you." That's all he said, ''If I need you I want to
know where I'm going to find you." Parents today, they don't know where
their kids are. Ten o'clock at night and they wonder where their kids are.
Not only that, but when he said something he meant it. For instance, when he
asked us to do something if he was in a good mood he would probably remind
us maybe once. But the third time he let us know that he was unhappy with
us and he whacked our boompa a little bit. He never beat us, but he let us
know that he was not happy with us. There was no, we were not babied you
know. We couldn't afford i t . W e co u ld n 't a f f o r d t o b e b a b i e d , m y
f a t h e r wa s wo r k i n g a n d m y grandparents couldn't, they were kind of
elderly. I just, well compared to now you know, I can remember when my
wife and I got married; after the marriage we spent a couple days in
Riverside at the Mission Inn. That was a big thing . I went back to the marine
base and she went back to the nurses' home where she was residing when
she was going to S.C.C. We had nothing between us. I don't know, I think
I had $20 so I gave her $15 when she went back. Today kids, when they
get married they want wall-to-wall carpeting, two cars, a T.V. set in every
room. They want to start at the top. I think it's great to feel that way, but
I think that you really appreciate it more if you start from the bottom and
accomplish something. If you start from the top that's not, to me, since
I never had that opportunity, it wouldn't be as satisfying as starting
from scratch and building on it. I like to think that I had a good foundation
along with my brother and sisters because of that fact that we came from
a very disciplined home. My dad worked hard, he didn't have time to fool
with us at night you know, hearing complaints of how we behaved, and we
knew that. So when I was in the Marine Corps, I said it before, everybody
was telling me that they got this training up there in San Diego, that boy will
never make it. Boot camp I guess is what they were referring to. Well,
when I got through boot camp, when I was in boot camp I kept waiting for the
other shoe to drop and it never did because I always felt that compared to
my father's discipline that marine boot camp was a piece of cake. Other
people who never had that kind - you know, I wasn't used to all those things
that they gave us, that they had us go through, but I was trained to follow
orders - discipline. I think it was good for me. In fact, I think in many ways the
Marine Corps helped me be what I am today. I went in as a teenager and I
came out as man. That experience taught me leadership. The Marine
Corps taught me how to be a leader, how to assume responsibility when
lives of others depended on it. You can't get more responsible than
that, so you grow up in a hurry, you know you don't have time to ask
somebody's thoughts on the situation or, you've got to go in a hurry because
they don't give you time, once you get over there, there was no time to
baby around and show you the road. I think that, I really think that
Marine Corps training has a lot to do with my success in life later on, I
really do. Because I, (laugh) the computer went down yesterday and I
called in and talked to the secretary and said, "Well what's going on?" She
said, "Well they're down and they don't know when they are going to come
on. I'll call you back when they're on." An hour later on I called and said,
'W ell, what's happened to the computer?" She said, "Well they're
working on it." I said, "You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to send a
marine sergeant, you watch him get that thing fixed now. When you got to
fix something we fix it, we don't look for - go around, we go directly to
the source - we size the problem and we come up with all options that we
might have and we hope that with common sense we chose the best option to
resolve an issue." That applies to life, not only in time of war. So in many
ways I think the Marine Corps has a lot to do with what I am today. I'm proud
of that. I don't think I want to go back, but I'm glad I got through there. I
just feel for these kids that are in it that may be involved to the extent
that we were. I don't think I, I don't want to do that, for me I mean. I don't
want to be in charge of these kids. We were all the same age; it didn't
bother me, but now going and sending these kids into battle. I don't know
if I want to be a career military man. So I think that when you hear these
folks talk about quotas in the job sector - nonsense. It's nonsense to me.
I don't care if it's government or anybody else: you provide the best that
money can buy for the taxpayers. I don't care if it's paperclips or
manpower, personnel, the best. And I don't care whether they're black,
purple, green, the best. If all the best are black, they should get the jo b.
If they are all white, they should get the job. If they're all brown, I don't
say three of this, four of that and four of that. We have so many different
ethnic groups that we're going to have one Indian and one Filipino and one
Italian and one Jewish folk. Come on, you can't do that. And all these
people that are looking for equality, I think they're hurting themselves
when they do that. Discrimination? Of course there's discrimination: I
never said there wasn't. But you don't add gasoline to the fire by doing that.
You do it by being qualified. You see to me when they said about - what
is that word that I'm looking for? It's supposed to be for people who go
to work for government there has to be a breakdown of every ethnic group?
Quotas are part of it, but I'm against quotas. That to me is self - defeating,
quotas for employment. Anyway , Mrs. Smith and I (she was a
supervisor and I was chairman of the board), we put together this
program that the federal government came forth and said unless you have
this program in place you can't get funding of some sort, so she and I sat down
and we made this, and I'll think of the term, of how we would hire people to
make sure that nobody's discriminated upon.
KS: Underrepresented?
RA: No, no. You see when you - all I want an employer to do
KS: Well sometimes they'll call: they'll say that there are certain groups that are
underrepresented in your employment.
RA: Yeah, yeah, boy I knew the term better than my own name, but I can't
think of it right now. Anyway, you don't start watering down the
quality of your manpower unless you get the best, and it doesn't matter
whether you're - what color or where your parents came from. I tell these
people, you know young kids going to college - one of the things when I
was State Senator , people would come to me and ask me where they could
recruit young college graduates for their work. I would ask them, "Well what
are you looking for, what kind of kids, or young men and women?" They said,
"Well, obviously we would like for them to be college graduates, but the
most important thing is that we want them to have a disposition/attitude
that serves the company. We don't want to hire kids that in one year
they're out there doing, you know, revolting and having problems and
going on strike and bilingual and all these things. We want people who are
going to grow with the company. Their attitude, they've got to have the
right attitude. They may have the best grades. Grades are
important. Three things, grades are important, ref erence letters
are important, but the attitude is even more important." So I told the
kids you know , "Get your degree, but have the right attitude. Want to
learn the job. Nobody - you think you might know, but you don't 'til you get
there. Learn, have the right attitude, and by that I don't mean you should be
passive and don't, you know don't just sit down and take it, but do it in a way
that it feels like you're contributing to the betterment of that company
you work for, Don't be negative and causing problems with personnel
and be unhappy; that's not the people they are looking for. I used to ask
the kids, for instance I asked you the other day about San Bernardino
University. They are going to start a Chicano Studies. And I would ask
the Chancellor, "What is that going to accomplish?" I think it's great to
be a minor and have it as a minor to know about the ethnic group, but being
a major is not going to get you a job anywhere unless you're going to teach it,
and how many teachers are there for Chicano Studies? How is that going to
get you a job? You know I don't know. I'm really asking because I don't
know. I would like to have someone who is supporting that who is in a
position to put in place or not how your yielding to these young militants (and I
don't know why they want that). It's okay to be proud of your heritage, but
being proud by itself is not going to put anything on your breakfast
table you see. You've got to have common sense. I'm proud of what I am.
I'm proud to be of Mexican descent, I really am, and I won't deny it, But I
don't think that I wear it on my shirtsleeve. I think that the sooner you
become part of the, you know the center, the better off we're all going to
be. You can't be out in left field taking shots at the center all the time all
your life, like some professors are. I know one guy that just passed away;
he used to teach at Northrop. He was the Chicano Studies professor. I
think that - the trouble is that those folks will resent anybody who wants to
be in the middle of this thing and not be one or the other, just be an
American and get involved in the things that I think should matter to your
kids and your future generations. But sit up there and say, 'I'm proud to be
of Mexican descent,' and by golly you're going to teach Spanish. How is that,
you know,' think that a person who knows a lot of languages is really at an
advantage over others that don't. The more languages the better, but you
better learn how to speak English first in this country if you're going to go
ahead and try to get ahead, you know, for your own family if nothing else in
order to improve yourself. So I have a problem with Chicano Studies. If you
have a chance, ask your president. Ask him how's that going to help his
students when they graduate. Tell him I wanted to know; because I know the
gentleman, he's a fine gentleman as far as I know. But I think first of all
you have to be qualified - no quotas. I think that if you start going in that
direction you're really watering down the capability of the work staff. If
you're just doing it because of ethnic differential, and not necessarily for
capability, I don't want to waste my money if I'm the owner of a factory.
Although I'm complying with all these regulations that put so many
minorities, if it's costing me money - well that's my money you know. Well,
if you don't hire these people then you don't get federal contracts or state
contracts. Fine , but hire them because they're qualified, not because they
come from - their family comes from Japan or from France or wherever, Viet
Nam, Hire them for their qualifications: the masters that they have, and
professional attitude. And so first of all, to start with, you've got to be
qualified as much as you can in all respects when you apply for a job. I
don't want to - even for veterans, I have a little bit of understanding because
when I was gone four years, someone who didn't go at all, and he was in
college, so he had a four year start on me while I was serving my country.
I think for that reason I deserve seine kind of a benefit. Not necessarily
that I'm of any - you know that goes for all veterans no matter where their
ancestors came from. There's no discrimination there, but I'm saying that
I really think that those of us who were gone - for instance, I was gone from
'42 to 1946, and in that time I know people that were not able to get in for
whatever reason and they got their degree in college while I was gone .
And then some of them didn't come back to go to school either. So I think
in that respect we should get some kind of a handicap, if you want to call it
that. Not because you're a veteran, but because the other people got ahead
of you. I don't know how I would provide that benefit. So you have to
be qualified, then you have to have discipline. I love that word,
"discipline." I really do. You've got to have discipline. Discipline provides
for leadership I think. You know where you are all the time and you know
your goal and you're going ta get it - you know within the law, within the
regulations, but you're disciplined. You can accomplish a lot by being
disciplined. Then you have to be dedicated. You have to be dedicated to
the cause. If you're not interested, you're wasting your time and you're
wasting your employer's time. Be dedicated to the cause as well as be
loyal to your employer. If you don't like your employer, don't work
there; go somewhere else. Be loyal, And then I think that, especially
when you start having a family, I think you should get involved in the
community to try to make a difference, a positive difference for the
community you live in. I hear people say, "Well I don't have time." Well
come on, what are you doing if you don't have time you know? You should be
able to give some of the time. I spent eight years in little league as a manager,
and I still get a big satisfaction when these big m en come up to me with
their children and say, "I played ball for you in little league." In fact, I think
I told you before the football coach at Chino High School, John Monger, has a
tremendous record. He's one of the top schools in Southern Cal right now
in f o otba ll. He wa s m y pitche r in litt le lea gue. And so you f ee l like
yo u contributed a little bit to that person, and it's a satisfaction that
nobody can take away from you. I have it and I'm going to hang onto it. So
I don't have all the answers, but I can tell you what worked for me and
what didn't. And so I feel that loyalty has to be - again, I learned it in the
service you know. Within the marines you can kid each other. Within the
marines you can call each other west coast marines and some of the east
coast marines, when they saw us coming in camp, they would start going
like, "Hollywood marines," you know.
KS: Like they were twirling a camera with a handle.
RA: Yeah. They used to do that when they saw us coming just to dig us a little
bit. But don't let an army guy do it or a sailor, because he's in trouble. See, just
like your own family, you can tell your kids, "When are you going to grow up?"
or something, but don't you let the neighbor tell him that, you know,
because you might go after him. So we’re a self-contained outfit. We’re
proud and we have a great record; and what is it - "Uncle Sam is looking for a
few good men" or something. So I was lucky that I survived that and that
I come out with a great attitude, although right after the war, like anybody
else, I thought about what happened and I didn't like to think about it, but it
came to me and now as we get further away you don't think as much about
it as you did then, and then here we go with another one. Well, I had a kid in
Viet Nam and that bothered me more than it bothered me when I was over
there because I knew where I was and I knew when I was safe and when I
wasn't, but I didn't know where he was in Viet Nam. I knew what he was going
through because I’d been there, and so it bothered me quite a bit when my
older son was in Viet Nam.
KS: Now do you remember your reaction to the Korean War, because it
wouldn't have been far from being WWII?
RA: It was only five years I think wasn't it between, four or five years.
KS: It was 1950, and you were starting a family by then.
RA: I remember it for a different reason than you might be thinking. When I
was at Terminal Island, it was a four-year enlistment I had. I knew when I was
going to get out. I didn't have as many points as everybody else did, but I
knew my time was getting short and I knew when I was getting out. Well,
about a week before I got out, I got a letter from a colonel in Denver,
a Marine Corps colonel. There was apparently a Marine Corps depot in
Denver and my sea bag had been lost overseas. My ID. card and everything
else got lost in the shuffle up there and they issued another one when I
came back. About a week before I got discharged I got a card saying that
they had located my sea bag, because it had the serial number you
know. W here should he send it to? So I responded. I gave him my home
address in Chino (my folks). To this day I don't remember how I addressed
the letter, because I got a letter from this colonel about ten days later, I
was home already, they forwarded it from the base to me, balling me out.
He says, 'Since when do you address an official, an officer of the Marine
Corps in that fashion?" I don't remember what I said. I really don't. Plain
ignorance. What did I tell him that offended him? But I'm home now. So I
wrote back I says, "You better have my sea bag in front of my front door or
I'm going to sue you, you know. I don't have to answer to you."
KS: By this time you're a civilian?
PA: Well, that was fine because my sea bag was there within a week. But then
that Korea thing started and I said, boy if they call me back and I run into
this colonel (laughing). But of course I wasn't fully enlisted, they couldn't
call me back unless they drafted me.
KS: If you had a four-year enlistment then it was up in the end of four years
and you were not in reserves or anything of the sort?
RA: No. When they referred to my - I was U.S. Marine Corps. If you were
U.S Marine Corps R, U.S. Marine Corps Reserve. I don't have the R. Four
years you're out. I don't know, I often wonder how did I address that letter
to this colonel that offended him, because he wrote and said, "When does an
enlisted man refer to a colonel the way you did to me?" on and on and oh he
was really blistering you know. And I wrote back and I said, "Colonel, come on
send my sea bag, quit horsing around, you know. I don't have to address
you. Send it home: I don't know what else I said to him, but I was pretty
upset and my sea bag was right there a week later.
KS: Was there any pressure on you at all right at the end of our tour of duty
to join the reserves, to continue reserve enlistment?
RA: Any question, I didn't even give it the slightest thought. I had no need f or
any further military life. You know I'm proud I served, but that's not my
life. I don't like to be told what time to get up. What to wear, what time
to have breakfast, what to eat, when you can go out on a work party (they
call it), when you have to come back, when you can have dinner and what
they're going to serve you and when you can go out the gate on liberty, and
what time you have to be back, what time you stay up and what time to turn
off the lights. I like to think for myself. I don't like other people to do that.
I couldn't do that. You know I had to so I managed. You know, like gee
you're there reading a book, "Lights out, 9:00 o'clock, everybody in bed,'
you know, like you're in prison. Some of the guys would go to the
bathroom because the lights were on and read there if they wanted to
read. But no, I didn't at all care for military life, although I have to admit
I enjoyed it. I was part of the boys that were in . I don't know what I would
have done if I couldn't have made the Marine Corps. I don't think I would have
come home. It would have been embarrassing in those days not to be, to join
the service and then they kick you out because you don't qualify. That would
have been embarrassing for me to come back home and say, "Well I thought
you joined the Marine Corps." "Yeah, but they kicked me out, I'm not
physically qualified or mentally." Oh I wanted to make it; I wanted to make
it so bad in boot comp. But I enjoyed some of it. I'm not going to say I
enjoyed all of it. But you know, in boot camp it was a challenge to me.
Some people, you know I was used to athletics and I was used to being, and
I wanted to be number one. I don't remember that I was ever number one,
but I come close. If I didn't want to be number one I probably wouldn't ,
you know, especially when you go up that rope you know, I wanted to get
up - they time you. I never made it number one, and down on the obstacle
course, I wanted to be number one and get under this wire with your
rifle you know. And sometimes you've got to get on your back because
the fire's right here you know and then they're shooting over you, you know
in boot camp. I wanted to get up there quicker than anybody else. I wanted
to be number one. And again, I don't recall that I ever was number one in
boot camp, but I was maybe two or three or four out of 90 and that means
that if I hadn't tried to be number one I probably would have ended up,
you know, 60 or 70. In rifle range I never fired a rifle in my life, maybe a B.B.
gun, but never - and I learned the Marine Corps way. There were three
categories: there was expert, sharpshooter and qualify . I was
sharpshooter; I wasn't an expert. In the pistol I was lousy. I couldn't fire
a pistol because the pistol’s different. You move it a little bit and you
miss the target by ten yards you know, you know, just a little bit. With a
pistol you don't pull the trigger, because if you do that you move the thing, you
squeeze it, you squeeze the trigger with the hand, squeeze like that.
That's the way they teach you. I remember the one guy with the
practice , like a podium , you have the pistol there on the range, not too far.
This guy, I think he was from Texas, what they'd do, is when they say, "go"
you grab the gun and go straight at the target. This guy gave it this you
know, and the guy grabbed his arm and he said, "Who do you think you are
Tom Mix? But you know, he used other words besides. But you point at the
target: you don't mess around with this one. But anyway, I wasn't the most
outstanding member in my platoon by a long shot, but I was at the top 10%.
KS: The pistols, those were .45's weren't they?
RA: Yeah. I had a .45 overseas, and it's interesting because they gave us that,
what is it .05 , 06, what is it? Springfield, the bolt action. That's how
I went through boot camp and that's what I fired at the range. I knew
that rifle. I knew the stock and everything else. I knew the serial number.
We get aboard ship and they take it away from us and they give us
carbines, little , like so big and we never fired them before. You know it
didn't make sense to me. The trouble with the carbine, you're in the tropics
and it rains and it rusts easy. So you know so always full of vasoline so it
wouldn't rust. But was it .03, the Springfield .03, I shot, I was a
sharpshooter, not expert. But it didn't make sense to me what they did,
but I guess it wasn't for me to correct the Marine Corps. But it didn't make
sense, I was used to this thing here and then they gave me another rifle I'd
never seen before and I had to learn how to shoot it accurately.
KS: Now when they assigned the new arms to you, did you get any training with it?
RA: The new one?
KS: Yeah.
RA: Well, when we got to Australia there they showed us how to, they put them
on the, aboard ship too they had a big piece of canvas that you could get in
there and they'd, you know you'd take it apart and then they'd blindfold you
and then you'd put it together blindfolded. So in case - the reason for that
was in case you drop it and it gets full of sand when you drop it, you know
in the dark you can put it together again. So that sort of thing. But it
was interesting because, I don't know whether I said this before, when
we got to San Diego from Camp Elliott from Boot Camp - aboard ship they
went alphabetically first, so Ayala was down in the bottom of the boat and
Zebra was over here. So I was under the water level and so I say that I
went across in a submarine because I was under the water all the time
and the torpedo that never , none of us - it would be just loaded, no escort.
And we were - where we were, the compartment we were in the bottom
we could hear the motor, the engines running and it would shake a little bit
and again, we were below the water level and A, B, C and all the way to Z, so
if you were a Zebra you were up there. You could jump out of the ship if it
started going down then. But you know, that never entered my mind.
KS: While you were on this ship were there drills for evacuating ship?
RA: No, no there were no drills other than they would let us go up on the open deck
everyday by the numbers, by compartments you know. You didn't get up there
because you couldn't get 5,000 people up there, and we would put gear on, our
packs and our rifles and everything just - it was a mess. I didn't see water;
we didn't see water for about 32 days when we left San Diego. I think we
were zigzagging because one day the sun would go down over my left or my
right and the next day it would be on my left, the next time we would go back
over here. So we were..
KS: The sun would be behind you then huh?
RA: Pardon?
KS: The sun would be behind you then?
RA: Yeah, because we were the only one, we didn't have any escort. We didn't
have any protection, so we were, I guess we were going like this all the way
across.
KS: No, by drill I meant were there any like abandon ship drills?
RA: No, no. What we did was the Navy would throw some kind of a balloon up
there and they would practice their A.A. guns. The Navy did that and we
used to watch them. We'd sit there and watch them. We used to kid the
sailors all the time though. After a while you get to know them and I
remember on ship the captain of the ship every morning would announce,
"Marines out of the way, Navy personnel man your mops." And they'd come
out mopping the floors on the ship. "Get your feet over there Marine," as
they'd sweep. Then the Navy commander who was in charge of the ship
every day would say, "Don't forget men, a clean ship is a happy ship: And
I guess he's right , they kept it pretty clean. You know we got in the tropics
after a while and it was hot and what we would do is ration our, you know
our metal helmets; you know you've got the fiber then the helmet. That is
what you would use to get fresh water with an M.P. watching you fill the
thing. That's how you took it to your place where you slept and shower. You
start brushing your teeth and shaving and then you work yourself down with
the water, everyday so you wouldn't stink so much . And even so we still
stunk because without air, there was no air and it was hot and humid , But
that's all the water we had and you don't use your canteen water that you
had hanging: that would have been a court martial. In case we were sunk
we would have fresh water to drink while we were floating around. But
that's why we got that helmet full of water ever morning and the first
thing you'd do is brush your teeth and then you start, you know if you want
to shave then you shave and you work yourself all the way down to your
feet with the water. We did pretty good. We were able to ration the water
accordingly for a while, so it was interesting. But it was an experience that
- you know today they can fly up there and back in no time at all. I think I
explained to you a while back about this kid who the neighbors ca me
over to say goodbye to because he was going to Viet Nam because he was
on my little league team. He was my son's age and he was gone and he was
back in a month wounded. The first patrol he went he got wounded. Well it
took us 32 days to get there and he was there, got wounded and back in
California in less time than it took us to get up there. He flew back and forth
you know. I haven't seen Tony Parker, I don't know what happened to him,
but he got hit. But it was times that , I don't know , I think it united the nation.
We were, I think that 98% or better were behind the war effort. Not so in
Korea, not so in Viet Nam and not so in this war we are facing. There's only
been, I read someplace there's only been two supposedly popular wars. I
thought, how can a war be popular? That is WWI and WWII. All the other
wars people had a lot of opposition to ever since we became a nation. In
fact there were people who opposed the Revolutionary War in some
cases. It makes a lot of difference to the kids. Maybe they don't talk about
it. When they know that the people back home are for them. I'm out
there getting shot they'll say and I see where the people at home are
protesting us being there. I feel. God it must make you feel pretty bad
that here you are risking your life and people at home don't want you
there. They don't want to support you. That's what I told Brown. Oh, I
don't know if I told you about George Brown? He wanted to give the people
amnesty, and also he wanted to stop the fiscal support for that effort in
Viet Nam, right now. No more support for the troops up there, which I
thought was kind of, you know, the thinking was pretty bad to do that. I
remember saying, "You know I've got a kid in Viet Nam. Bring him home
and then cut off the supplies. I mean this kid didn't ask to be sent there,
but some of these kids like my son who got drafted, there was nowhere
else in the world he could legally be but Viet Nam, that's where our country
sent him." And to think that back home they were not supporting their efforts,
it must be demoralizing. We knew that the people at home were behind us
and that's a good feeling. It doesn't cure everything , but it sure helps a lot for
your morale.
KS: We’re right about at the end of the tape here.
