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               IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF WASHINGTON
                       IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SPOKANE
       ________________________________________________________
       JAMES J. KUNTZ,
                              Petitioner,
               and                                  No.    08-3-00453-6
       LISA M. KUNTZ,
                           Respondent.
       ________________________________________________________

                     DEPOSITION OF LISA M. KUNTZ
       ________________________________________________________
                        BE IT REMEMBERED that on the 29th day of
       January 2010, at the hour of 11:10 a.m., the deposition
       of LISA M. KUNTZ was taken at the request of the Petitioner,
       before Caryn E. Winters, RPR, a notary public and court
       reporter, Washington CCR No. 2496, Idaho CSR No. 237, at 422
       West Riverside Avenue, Suite 824, Spokane, Washington,
       pursuant to the Washington Rules of Civil Procedure.


       A P P E A R A N C E S:
       FOR THE PETITIONER:
       SALINA, SANGER & GAUPER
       By: Martin L. Salina
            Attorney at Law
       422 West Riverside Avenue, Suite 824
       Spokane, Washington 99201


       FOR THE RESPONDENT:


509-624-6255             SPOKANE REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 421 W. Riverside Avenue, #1010
800-759-1564             www.spokanereportingservice.com          Spokane, WA 99201
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   1     Camden M. Hall
         Attorney at Law
   2     1001 Fourth Avenue Plaza, Suite 4301
         Seattle, Washington 98154
   3
         ALSO PRESENT:
   4
         James J. Kuntz
   5
   6                                  * * * * *
   7
                                      I N D E X
   8
   9     WITNESS:   LISA M. KUNTZ
 10
         EXAMINATION:
 11
         By Mr. Salina - Page No. 3
 12
 13
 14
         EXHIBITS MARKED:
 15
         None.
 16
 17
 18
 19
 20                                   * * * * *
 21
 22
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509-624-6255                SPOKANE REPORTING SERVICE, INC.   421 W. Riverside Avenue, #1010
800-759-1564            www.spokanereportingservice.com Spokane, WA                 99201
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   1                                  LISA M. KUNTZ,
   2                       called as a witness at the request
   3                        of the Petitioner herein, having
   4                         been first duly sworn on oath,
   5                            did testify as follows:
   6
   7                      THE WITNESS:     Yes.
   8                                 EXAMINATION
   9     Q     (By Mr. Salina)     Good morning, Ms. Kuntz.
 10      A     Good morning.
 11      Q     Would you state your name and address, please.
 12      A     Lisa Marie Kuntz, and my mailing address is P.O. Box
 13      30521, Spokane, Washington, 99223.
 14      Q     And can you give me that to me again, please?
 15      A     Uh-huh.    P.O. Box 30521, Spokane, Washington, 99223.
 16      Q     Okay.   Where do you currently reside?
 17      A     That is something I don't want to disclose.                But you can
 18      send any information to my attorney.
 19      Q     All right.    Is it outside of Spokane?
 20      A     No, sir.
 21      Q     It's in Spokane?
 22      A     Yes, sir.
 23      Q     All right.    So I guess I had in mind that after you and
 24      Jeff separated that you moved to Seattle or somewhere on the
 25      west side of the state.         Was there a period of time when you


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800-759-1564              www.spokanereportingservice.com Spokane, WA                  99201
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   1     moved outside of Spokane?
   2     A     No, sir.
   3     Q     All right.    And have you always lived at the same
   4     address since having separated from Mr. Kuntz?
   5     A     No, sir.
   6     Q     All right.    Do you rent?
   7     A     Yes, sir.
   8     Q     And are you in a lease or month-to-month?
   9     A     Month-to-month.
 10      Q     And how long have you lived at that current rental?
 11      A     Approximately since April of 2008.
 12      Q     All right.    April?
 13      A     April to May.
 14      Q     So you've lived there from April 2008 through today,
 15      which is approximately February of 2010, huh?
 16      A     Yes, sir.
 17      Q     All right.    When did you and Jeff separate?
 18      A     When did he file divorce?          I didn't understand the
 19      question.    Can you rephrase that, please?
 20      Q     He pled that you separated, I think, on February 28th of
 21      2008, and you admitted that.           Does that sound about right
 22      when you moved out?
 23      A     That is the day that he -- I think that's the first day
 24      we went to court, I believe.           Somewhere around that time.
 25      Q     All right.


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   1     A     Maybe -- I don't generally recall that.              So maybe that
   2     time, yes.
   3     Q     All right.   So there was about a two-month period of
   4     time before you moved into this existing rental?
   5     A     Maybe even March is when I moved in there.                I'm not
   6     exactly sure on the exact date that I moved in there.
   7     Q     All right.
   8     A     March to April.
   9     Q     The property that you initially moved into, did you rent
 10      that property or was that with friends?
 11      A     Yes, sir, with friends.
 12      Q     With friends?    All right.        And did you pay any rent
 13      during that period of time?
 14      A     Yes, sir.
 15      Q     How much did you pay?
 16      A     I don't recall.
 17      Q     Okay.   Was it under a thousand dollars a month?
 18      A     Yes, sir.
 19      Q     Was it under $500 a month?
 20      A     I believe so.
 21      Q     Did you pay it by check?
 22      A     I can't recall that detail.
 23      Q     All right.   And did you pay it monthly the same amount?
 24      A     I believe so, yes.
 25      Q     All right.


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   1     A     There may have been a time where I lived in -- I roomed
   2     with somebody and then moved into a -- I believe I paid,
   3     yeah, monthly.
   4     Q     All right.     Where were you born and raised?
   5     A     Spokane, Washington.
   6     Q     And did you graduate from high school here?
   7     A     Yes, sir.
   8     Q     And where and when, please?
   9     A     Rogers High School, '94.
 10      Q     And what is your date of birth?
 11      A     2-13-1976.
 12      Q     So you're going to be 34 on your next birthday?
 13      A     Yes, sir.
 14      Q     And how is your health?
 15      A     No problems.
 16      Q     All right.    So you have good health?
 17      A     I said no problems.
 18      Q     Would you say it's good health?            Do you have any chronic
 19      health issues, Ms. Kuntz?
 20      A     No, sir.
 21      Q     Are you able to work full time without difficulty?
 22      A     Yes, sir.
 23      Q     When is the last time you've been to a doctor?
 24      A     I don't recall the exact date.
 25      Q     Okay.   Other than normal colds and flus and things of


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   1     that inconvenience, have you had any chronic health issues
   2     in the last five years?
   3     A     Potentially in the last five years I went to the
   4     hospital a couple of times with appendicitis.               Or, not
   5     appendicitis, gallbladder and kidney stone-type issues.
   6     Q     Has that been resolved?
   7     A     I believe so, yes.     And then potentially during that
   8     time also, I don't know if it may have been a -- prior to
   9     five years, but potentially the doctor with some female
 10      issues.
 11      Q     Has that been resolved?
 12      A     Yes, sir.
 13      Q     All right.   So my understanding, Ms. Kuntz, is that you
 14      and Jeff Kuntz were married on March 27th, 2004.                 Does that
 15      sound correct?
 16      A     Yes, sir.
 17      Q     And where was that ceremony at?
 18      A     Crossover Church off of Newport Highway.
 19      Q     Okay.   And I used the date of separation as February
 20      28th, 2008, but I guess the question is between March 27th
 21      of 2004 and February of 2008 were there any periods of
 22      separation where you were not living together?
 23      A     Yes, sir.
 24      Q     And what were those dates, please?
 25      A     August of 2007.   And I went back in -- I went back to


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   1     the home, and we got back together November 4th.
   2     Q     Again of 2007?
   3     A     Yes, sir.
   4     Q     And where did you live during that period of time?
   5     A     In between -- originally I moved in with the same
   6     friends that I moved in with.           Lived at Harborview for a
   7     little bit.
   8     Q     Where?
   9     A     Harborview, because my husband got sick.              So I had two
 10      stints there, a 13-day, I think, and an eight-day.                   Hotel.
 11      A couple of nights too I -- we had -- we have rentals and
 12      homes, and I slept on the floor in those homes.
 13      Q     Okay.    Have you been married before?
 14      A     Yes, sir.
 15      Q     And did that marriage end by divorce?
 16      A     Yes, sir.
 17      Q     And when were you previously married, please?                When did
 18      your first marriage take place?
 19      A     I don't recall the date.
 20      Q     How old you were?
 21      A     I don't recall a specific --
 22      Q     All right.    You're 34 years old?
 23      A     If you give me a second, I'll think about it.
 24      Q     Okay.    Take your time.
 25      A     Thank you, sir.


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   1                        (Pause in proceedings.)
   2     A     I believe it was in '99.        But that's not --
   3     Q     It's your best estimate?
   4     A     It's my best guess, yes.
   5     Q     And the name of your first spouse, what was that?
   6     A     Christopher Richardson.
   7     Q     All right.    And you were divorced in Spokane County?
   8     A     Yes, sir.
   9     Q     And when was that?
 10      A     I believe it was in 2001.
 11      Q     So approximately a two-year marriage?
 12      A     Yes, sir.
 13      Q     And any children from that marriage?
 14      A     No, sir.
 15      Q     Do you have any children?
 16      A     No, sir.
 17      Q     Were you represented by counsel in that divorce?
 18      A     No, sir.
 19      Q     Did you and Mr. Richardson have any assets that you
 20      accumulated during the marriage?
 21      A     Yes, sir.
 22      Q     What was that?
 23      A     Are you asking what I got after the marriage was over or
 24      are you asking what --
 25      Q     Let's start with that, yes.          What were you awarded in


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   1     the divorce?
   2     A     I was awarded the home.
   3     Q     Is that the home on Forest Boulevard?
   4     A     Yes, sir.
   5     Q     And were you living in that home when you and Mr. Kuntz
   6     first met?
   7     A     Yes, sir.
   8     Q     All right.   And that home, at the time that you and Mr.
   9     Kuntz met, had a mortgage on it, did it not?
 10      A     Yes, sir.
 11      Q     Now, Mr. Kuntz does have children, does he not?
 12      A     Yes, sir.
 13      Q     And does he have six children?
 14      A     Yes, he does.
 15      Q     And I know of Courtney.         That's one of his children,
 16      correct?
 17      A     Yes.
 18      Q     And Leighton?
 19      A     Yes.
 20      Q     And Madelyn and Margo and Evan?
 21      A     Yes, sir.
 22      Q     Who's the sixth child?
 23      A     Cassie Rico is how I knew her.            I don't know anything
 24      about her now.     So her name may have changed or that sort of
 25      thing.


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   1     Q     And his first wife and mother of those children is Lisa
   2     Kuntz; is that correct?
   3     A     No, sir.    Lisa Kuntz, did you say?
   4     Q     Yeah?
   5                   MR. HALL:     That's her name.
   6     A     That's me.
   7     Q     (By Mr. Salina)    I know your name.             Do you know the name
   8     of his first wife?
   9     A     Jennifer.
 10      Q     Jennifer.    All right.     Does Mr. Kuntz pay child support
 11      to Jennifer Kuntz?
 12      A     When I was married to Jeff --
 13      Q     You're still married to Jeff.
 14      A     When I was married to Jeff -- and let me finish my
 15      sentence -- living in the home with him, and was in charge
 16      of the finances, yes, I did pay child support to Jennifer.
 17      Q     You mean you wrote the check?
 18      A     Yes, sir.
 19      Q     Were you in charge of the finances during the marriage
 20      to Jeff?
 21      A     (Nods head).    I want to say most of the time.                But I
 22      didn't just run around with the checkbook.                 It was --
 23      Q     I didn't ask you if you just ran around with the
 24      checkbook.    I guess what I asked you is, and this was your
 25      phrase, that you were in charge of the finances.                    Is that an


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   1     accurate statement, the one you just gave me?
   2     A     Meaning in charge of writing the checks, so -- but I
   3     would never write something that wasn't agreed upon by both
   4     of us that wasn't a bill.
   5     Q     So during the time that you were living together with
   6     Mr. Kuntz, you were in charge of writing the checks?
   7     A     There were times where he wrote checks also.               So he was
   8     able to write checks.      So I would say the majority of that
   9     responsibility I took care of, but he was able to do that
 10      also, and did do that, --
 11      Q     But you wrote --
 12      A     -- on occasion.
 13      Q     I'm sorry?
 14      A     And he did do that on occasion.
 15      Q     Okay.   You wrote the majority of the checks?
 16      A     I would say that's a fair statement.
 17      Q     It was your statement.      I'm just agreeing with you.              Do
 18      you remember what the child support was?
 19      A     I believe it was in the ballpark of 12 to -- the check
 20      that we wrote would be in the ballpark of 12 to 1,300
 21      somewhere --
 22      Q     And you wrote that check --
 23      A     -- every month.
 24      Q     I'm sorry, I keep cutting you off here.            Did you finish
 25      your answer?


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   1     A     Somewhere in that arena.
   2     Q     And did you write that check the majority of the time?
   3     A     As I recall, that would be correct.
   4     Q     Okay.    What is your educational background?             You have a
   5     high school degree from Rogers.            I know that.
   6     A     Yes, sir.
   7     Q     Do you have any further education?
   8     A     Yes, I have an AAS in physical therapy assistant.
   9     Q     And where did you achieve that?
 10      A     Spokane Falls Community College.
 11      Q     And when did you obtain that?
 12      A     Give me a second to think about the dates, please.
 13                         (Pause in proceedings.)
 14      Q     You said you graduated in '94?
 15      A     Yeah.    And I went to Eastern for a couple of years
 16      before I decided to do that.          Maybe a year and a half at
 17      Eastern.      Because I originally was going to do psychology,
 18      and I changed at that point.
 19      Q     So you were at Eastern from maybe '95, '96?
 20      A     I believe '97, '98 probably would be about the time that
 21      I was doing my AAS at Spokane Community College.
 22      Q     Is that a two-year course?
 23      A     Yes, sir.
 24      Q     And so you were bestowed with an AAS degree in 1998?
 25      A     I believe that date's correct.


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   1     Q     Approximately?
   2     A     To the best of my recall.
   3     Q     Fair enough.   And that was in the field of physical
   4     therapy, did you say?
   5     A     Physical therapy assistant.
   6     Q     All right.   And why did you go into physical therapy?
   7     A     I'm good at working with community and people, and I
   8     like to serve people, so I felt like that would be a
   9     beneficial thing for me to do.
 10      Q     All right.   And have you worked in that capacity?
 11      A     Yes, sir.
 12      Q     And do you enjoy the work?
 13      A     Yes, sir.
 14      Q     And is that the work that you wish to continue to engage
 15      in?
 16      A     There's some complications with that.             Because in
 17      Washington state there's -- when we graduated there was no
 18      licensure, and they have such changed that.               And so I would
 19      need to go back and do schooling or go back and take the
 20      test in order to obtain my licensure to continue to do
 21      physical therapy assistant.
 22      Q     When did that change take place?
 23      A     I don't -- it was in the duration of when I was out of
 24      the field when I was married.
 25      Q     Okay.   And have you looked into going back to take the


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   1     additional vocational training so that you can sit for the
   2     exam?
   3     A     No, sir.
   4     Q     Okay.   Why is that?
   5     A     Because I opened up a business, a cleaning business.
   6     And at the time when all this was going on I was enrolled in
   7     a leadership school in a -- through our church that took
   8     hours that -- so I wasn't -- I felt that that's what I was
   9     supposed to be doing at that time, is --
 10      Q     Do you have an intention of going back and becoming a
 11      physical therapy assistant or not?
 12      A     No.
 13      Q     Is your intention vocationally then to stick with this
 14      cleaning business?
 15      A     Yes, sir.
 16      Q     All right.    Let's go back and talk about your
 17      employment, Ms. Kuntz.        You graduated from Rogers in 1994?
 18      A     Yes, sir.
 19      Q     So we're talking about, I guess, roughly 16 years.                  But
 20      tell me what jobs you've held, please.
 21      A     Right after I graduated I worked for Northwest
 22      Orthopedic and Fracture Clinic, which is a doctor's office,
 23      doing phone lines, filing, scheduling appointments,
 24      secretarial work.      And I believe that was about two years of
 25      working there.


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   1     Q     Was that full time?
   2     A     Uh-huh.    And then I was in --
   3     Q     Excuse me just a second.
   4     A     I'm sorry.
   5     Q     No, excuse me.     And do you remember what you were paid
   6     per hour from '94 to '96, roughly?
   7     A     I can't even recall that.         I'm sorry.
   8     Q     Would it be entry wage, some type of a minimum wage-type
   9     job?
 10      A     I don't know what's entry level wage.               I'm not sure what
 11      you would say that as.
 12      Q     Do you have any recollection what you made?
 13      A     I don't.    I --
 14      Q     Okay.   Did you have any benefits there?              Retirement,
 15      health insurance?
 16      A     I don't believe retirement.          And I'm not -- I don't
 17      recall if I had health insurance or dental.
 18      Q     Okay.
 19      A     But potentially could have been a possibility.
 20      Q     You possibly had that?       Is that your testimony?
 21      A     I potentially could have had that, but I do not recall.
 22      Q     Okay.   And where did you move after Northwest
 23      Orthopedic?
 24      A     I was going to school for physical therapy, and the
 25      internships had started at that point.                 I believe -- let me


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   1     -- I've got to make sure I'm on track.
   2                        (Pause in proceedings.)
   3     A     I believe the internships at -- I may have worked at
   4     Northwest Ortho for a little bit longer, but I believe after
   5     that I had to quit that job in order to do schooling.
   6     Because the internships required you to be in the field
   7     working, so I couldn't work my job and also work in the
   8     field doing physical therapy.
   9     Q     All right.    So while you were going to school you did
 10      not have employment for pay?
 11      A     I may have, but I'm not -- I don't -- I can't recall
 12      that.
 13      Q     All right.    And then having graduated in approximately
 14      1998 with your degree from SFCC, what was the first
 15      employment you had after that?
 16      A     I believe I finished up an internship at Manor Care.
 17      And so I believe I was hired on -- or, not Manor Care.                      I'm
 18      sorry.    That's where my sister worked.               At -- I can't think
 19      of what the name is.       It's up north.         It's a nursing home.
 20      Q     Okay.
 21      A     Regency.
 22      Q     So Regency Nursing Home?
 23      A     Uh-huh.
 24      Q     And you would have worked there from roughly 1998 to how
 25      long, please?


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   1     A     I can't recall that.       But I know that I did work there
   2     for awhile and kind of full time.
   3     Q     Less than a year?
   4     A     No, probably more than a year.
   5     Q     Less than two years?
   6     A     I know that I continued to work there and work on call
   7     for a little bit of time.         So I can't recall how long I was
   8     there.
   9     Q     Do you have difficulty with memory, Ms. Kuntz?
 10      A     No, sir.
 11      Q     Okay.   So you can't tell me whether you worked there one
 12      year, two years, three years, four years?               Give me your best
 13      guess.    And I'll take it as a guess.
 14      A     Yeah.   Maybe I would say between a range of one to two.
 15      Q     And were you working full time there?
 16      A     As I stated prior, I started out full time and then
 17      tapered off down to like an on call weekend type of stuff.
 18      Q     Okay.   What were you paid per hour?
 19      A     I don't recall the exact amount.
 20      Q     I think you said in your declaration, Ms. Kuntz, that
 21      you never made more than $13 an hour as a physical
 22      therapist.     Do you recall that?
 23      A     I don't believe I -- I believe that when I worked for
 24      the -- for the school district that -- I believe that would
 25      be what my pay rate would be.


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   1     Q     Okay.   And we haven't gotten to that.             Did you make more
   2     than that before you went to the school district?
   3     A     Yes, sir.
   4     Q     And how much?
   5     A     I don't recall.
   6     Q     You can't tell me whether you made $10 an hour or $15 an
   7     hour or $20 an hour?
   8     A     Can I give you a --
   9     Q     Give me your best guess.
 10      A     Yeah, while I was working at Regency -- because I worked
 11      multiple jobs, and there's different pay rates at each job.
 12      Q     We're talking about Regency.
 13      A     Okay.   My best guess, maybe 16 to $17 an hour.
 14      Q     Okay.
 15      A     If may not even be -- that may be a little bit lower.                     I
 16      don't recall the exact amount.
 17      Q     Do you receive your Social Security benefits statement,
 18      annual statement that the Federal government sends out?
 19      A     Yes, sir.
 20      Q     Do you have a copy of that?
 21      A     With me today?
 22      Q     Not today, but do you retain a copy?
 23      A     Since I don't have much of the records, --
 24      Q     Just asking you about that specific document, ma'am,
 25      Social Security document.          Do you have that or not?


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   1     A     I'd have to look in my files.           I don't recall.
   2     Q     All right.    All right.     So we're Regency for a year or
   3     two, you said?
   4     A     Uh-huh.
   5     Q     You tapered from full to kind of an on-call basis.                  Why
   6     is that?      Why did you reduce your hours?
   7     A     Because I had other employment.
   8     Q     Okay.    Where was that?
   9     A     I worked at Visiting Nurses Association.
 10                      MR. HALL:   What is that?
 11                      THE WITNESS:     Visiting Nurses.        VNA.
 12      Q     (By Mr. Salina)    And that's where you'd go out into the
 13      field and provide care?
 14      A     Yes, sir.    I go in and do home.
 15      Q     Understood.    And how long did you work there?
 16      A     Six months to a year.
 17      Q     And what were you paid for that?
 18      A     The rate varied depending upon -- if I did a visit that
 19      was out of the, you know, area, you would get a little more.
 20      If you just did a normal rate, I would say 17 to $19 an
 21      hour.    And then you also -- actually, I'm not going to say
 22      that statement because I don't believe that.
 23      Q     Pardon me?
 24      A     I was going to say something.           But I don't believe
 25      that's accurate, so I'm not going to say it.


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   1     Q     All right.    Have you finished your answer?
   2     A     Yes, sir.
   3     Q     Now, this would have taken us up into the period of time
   4     that you were married in 1999 to Mr. Richardson; is that
   5     correct?
   6     A     Yes, sir.
   7     Q     All right.    And was he employed?
   8     A     Yes, sir.
   9     Q     And where did he work?
 10      A     Marriott.
 11      Q     All right.    Move me forward then, Ms. Kuntz, relative to
 12      your employment.      What were the next positions that you held
 13      after what you just described?
 14      A     Some time in there too, actually, I'm just recalling I
 15      worked at Healthsouth.        And I don't recall the exact date of
 16      that.
 17      Q     Okay.    What did you do for Healthsouth?
 18      A     Same thing.    Physical therapy.
 19      Q     What was your hourly rate?
 20      A     I want to say maybe in the range of 13 to $15 an hour.
 21      Q     Okay.    Just bring me forward chronologically, please.
 22      A     Okay.    After I was married -- so I believe that was -- I
 23      believe I did VNA and Healthsouth at the same time, and
 24      maybe even worked at Regency a little bit too just kind of
 25      on call.      Then I worked at the school district, Spokane


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   1     District 81, doing physical therapy with the kids.
   2     Q     Thank you.   When did you start there?
   3     A     I started there, I believe, in 2001 when the school year
   4     would have -- it would have been actually probably 2000,
   5     because the school year starts in September.
   6     Q     And how long did you work for the school district?
   7     A     Until I was married to Jeff.
   8     Q     All right.   And that would have been until roughly March
   9     of 2004?
 10      A     No, I finished out my contract.            So when school would
 11      end that year, which would be May, June, whenever the school
 12      year ends.
 13      Q     So you worked there a period of time after the marriage?
 14      A     Yes, because I already had a contract.
 15      Q     All right.   So some time in May of 2004 you terminated
 16      your employment with District 81?
 17      A     Yes.
 18      Q     All right.   So you worked there, give or take, three or
 19      four years?
 20      A     Yes, sir.
 21      Q     And I think you just testified that the hourly rate that
 22      I had referred to as being what you had referred to in a
 23      previous declaration was at the school district?
 24      A     I believe so.
 25      Q     Okay.   Were you full time there?


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   1     A     Yes, sir.
   2     Q     And was that nine months out of the year then?
   3     A     It's the school year.      So when the school year starts to
   4     when the school year ends.
   5     Q     So did you take your pay over nine months or did you
   6     take it over 12 months?
   7     A     I took it over -- I believe the first couple of years I
   8     took it over nine months, and I supplemented working at like
   9     some on call therapy places during the summer.                And then I
 10      believe I -- to my best recollection I changed that maybe
 11      the last couple of years or the last year to being paid 12
 12      months.
 13      Q     Did they provide you medical insurance?
 14      A     Yes, sir.
 15      Q     And did you participate in the retirement program there?
 16      A     Yes, sir.
 17      Q     All right.   And then is that the last employment that
 18      you had up through the date of separation?              You went to work
 19      for Mr. Kuntz, correct?
 20      A     Some time, as I'm recalling too, some time in the -- in
 21      between there I went to work for Mr. Kuntz also.                 Prior to
 22      us being married I worked for Elder Services and worked for
 23      him as a caregiver.     And then I was a -- then I believe I
 24      continued to work for him as a private pay caregiver.
 25      Q     All right.   And we'll get into that in a moment.


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   1     A     The reason my recollection isn't very good is I had a
   2     lot of -- I had a few, you know, jobs during the timing.
   3     Q     Okay.
   4     A     So dates are a little --
   5     Q     When did you first meet Jeff Kuntz?
   6     A     I can't recall the exact date, but at Healthsouth.
   7     Q     Pardon me?
   8     A     At Healthsouth.    He came in for physical therapy.
   9     Q     Well, how long did you know him prior to the marriage in
 10      March of '04?
 11      A     Probably, to my best recollection, it would be 2001 some
 12      time.
 13      Q     So your testimony is that you believe that you knew him
 14      for a period of about two or three years before you were
 15      married?
 16      A     Yes, sir.
 17      Q     And you say he came into Healthsouth?             That's the first
 18      time you met him?
 19      A     Yes, sir.
 20      Q     Correct?
 21      A     (Nods head).
 22      Q     All right.    And he came in for care?
 23      A     Yes, sir.
 24      Q     And did you provide care to him or for him at that time?
 25      A     Yes, sir.


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   1     Q     And do you recall what you provided -- what kind of care
   2     you provided Mr. Kuntz?
   3     A     What would be a normal care plan for a physical therapy
   4     treatment.
   5     Q     And what would that be?        Describe that for me.
   6     A     Various things.    Gross motor skills, --
   7     Q     Tell me --
   8     A     -- walking.
   9     Q     Tell me mechanically -- try to describe for me what
 10      physically you engaged in and what physically Mr. Kuntz
 11      engaged in in that therapy.          I really don't understand that
 12      field.
 13      A     Swimming therapy was a lot of it.
 14      Q     And was that done on the site at Healthsouth?
 15      A     Yes, sir.
 16      Q     So does that have you in the pool then with Mr. Kuntz?
 17      A     I can't recall that.       I could either be on land or -- or
 18      in the pool with him.
 19      Q     Okay.   Mr. Kuntz is in the pool?
 20      A     Yes.
 21      Q     You may or may not be?
 22      A     Absolutely.
 23      Q     All right.    What else?
 24      A     I know that we worked on sit-to-stands.             So from a chair
 25      with a high/low table, his elbows on the high/low table,


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   1     mechanically helping him stand up.              We worked with long leg
   2     braces.
   3     Q     And what does that mean?
   4     A     Put braces on his legs and he would walk.               Strengthening
   5     exercises.
   6     Q     Okay.    Did he have a -- I'll use the term provider
   7     assisting him at that time, someone driving him to these
   8     physical therapy sessions with you?              Was somebody caring for
   9     him in the home, if you know?
 10      A     I believe at that point his wife Jennifer, or he may
 11      have had a -- I don't know because I wasn't at his home.
 12      And being the physical therapy assistant, I don't write up
 13      the plan.      So I go off the physical therapist.
 14      Q     All right.    So would the answer be you don't know if he
 15      had a provider at home?
 16      A     I don't know.    I can't recall that.
 17      Q     All right.    Do you know where he was living when you
 18      first met him?
 19      A     Dell Drive.
 20      Q     Where?
 21      A     Dell Drive.
 22      Q     Okay.    And you were living on Forest, we previously
 23      discussed?
 24      A     Yes, sir.
 25      Q     Correct?    All right.      And so describe for me how your


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   1     relationship or contact with Mr. Kuntz continued, bringing
   2     us forward from about your first visit in 2001 forward.
   3     A     At Healthsouth I saw him -- I was his therapist.                 You
   4     know, I wasn't always his therapist.              He kind of rotated
   5     between therapists.
   6     Q     How often would you see him initially?
   7     A     I can't give an answer to that.
   8     Q     More than once a week?
   9     A     I would -- for me seeing him in the office or for me
 10      doing the physical therapy treatment with him?
 11      Q     Either one.    Either one.      Where you'd have any contact
 12      with him at all?
 13      A     I would see him -- I think he was a couple of times a
 14      week.
 15      Q     All right.    And on --
 16      A     Me seeing him but not doing the physical therapy
 17      treatment.
 18      Q     All right.    So a couple of times a week where you and he
 19      would come in and see each other and visit?
 20      A     He would come in where I was working.
 21      Q     Okay.
 22      A     And I would see him because he was in the facility.
 23      Q     All right.    And how much did you engage in therapy
 24      coming forward?      How often would that occur?
 25      A     I know he primarily worked with Craig Peterson and


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   1     Linna.    And I think when they weren't there, I think I
   2     filled in.
   3     Q     All right.   And how frequently was that, was my
   4     question?
   5     A     I can't give a good estimate to that.              Maybe one or two
   6     times a month.
   7     Q     Okay.   How long did it take, Ms. Kuntz, for this to
   8     evolve into what I'll use inartfully a romantic relationship
   9     with Mr. Kuntz?     Describe for me when that occurred and what
 10      happened.
 11      A     He had to stop doing physical therapy at Healthsouth
 12      because I believe there was no more benefits or it ran out
 13      or struggles were going on at the home front.                 His home
 14      front.    And so I didn't see him again.              And I can't recall
 15      the exact date till he was going down the street to go pick
 16      up a prescription at Walgreens on the Northside, and he
 17      asked me to come in and help him get the prescription.
 18      Q     And how long was that in relationship to your first
 19      providing care to him some time in 2001?                Was that a year
 20      later, six months later, three months later?
 21      A     I don't recall.
 22      Q     Well, give me your best guess.
 23      A     I don't recall the exact date, and I don't have a best
 24      guess for you.
 25      Q     All right.   Did that commence then some dating between


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   1     the two of you, using that term again inartfully?
   2     A     What do you mean by dating?
   3     Q     Well, what do you mean by dating?            Did you see him for
   4     reasons other than physical therapy, get together for
   5     coffee, talk?
   6     A     When I was working in the physical therapy at
   7     Healthsouth or after?
   8     Q     No, outside of any of your responsibilities to him as a
   9     physical therapist, did you two start seeing each other?
 10      A     Like for coffee and --
 11      Q     Yeah?
 12      A     No.
 13      Q     Okay.
 14      A     No, sir.
 15      Q     All right.
 16      A     Not -- originally when I began to help care for him it
 17      was because he had caregivers that would not show up.                    And
 18      they would leave him in bed, --
 19      Q     Okay.
 20      A     -- and he would have no arms on, no nothing on, and I
 21      came over to get him up in the mornings.               He would call me
 22      and I would come over and just help him get up in the
 23      morning so that he could function and be out of bed and have
 24      a life.
 25      Q     When did that start in relationship to your first seeing


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   1     him in 2001?     In other words, how long from the time you
   2     first met Jeff until you were going to his home and
   3     providing care for him in the home?
   4     A     When I worked -- dates are a little bit foggy for me, so
   5     -- I'm sorry, a lot happened during those times.                  I don't
   6     remember the exact --
   7     Q     I'm not interested in exact, Ms. Kuntz.             I'll take your
   8     best estimate, your best guess as to when from the time that
   9     you first met Jeff until you were volunteering and going to
 10      the home?     A year, two years?
 11      A     Maybe six months to a year --
 12      Q     Okay.
 13      A     -- is my best guess.       But that may not be accurate.
 14      Q     Fair enough.   And on these occasions where you'd come to
 15      the home, was this in a non-paid capacity?               In other words,
 16      it wasn't part of your Healthsouth responsibilities?
 17      A     Maybe for a week or so.        And then, like I said, I
 18      started working for Elder Services because he had caregivers
 19      that were not showing up.         So then I moved into a kind of on
 20      call weekend night.      It kind of just progressed --
 21      Q     Okay.
 22      A     -- to where I was --
 23      Q     So when you came over for that week or two before you
 24      moved into Elder Services, he obviously had your phone
 25      number?


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   1     A     Uh-huh.
   2     Q     And he would call you up and say "I need you to come on
   3     up"?
   4     A     Yes, sir.
   5     Q     Is that kind of how it worked?
   6     A     Yes, sir.
   7     Q     And you just being a good person, didn't have any
   8     economic payment for that?        You came over and provided care
   9     outside of your professional responsibilities with
 10      Healthsouth; is that right?
 11      A     I believe that's correct.
 12      Q     All right.   And that went on for a week or two, and then
 13      you say you moved on to Elder Services.               Now, is that
 14      another agency that you went to work for?
 15      A     As talked about prior, to work for him, because he was
 16      at that point state pay, you had to go through Elder
 17      Services in order to receive payment to work for him.
 18      Q     All right.   So, at any rate, you were qualified to be
 19      dispatched through Elder Services and be compensated and
 20      that started about two weeks later?
 21      A     To my best recollection, yes.
 22      Q     All right.   And in those instances then would you be
 23      called to his residence to assist him?
 24      A     Yes, sir.
 25      Q     And be paid for that?


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   1     A     Yes, sir.
   2     Q     Okay.
   3     A     And there was schedules.       So it was on-call, I believe,
   4     at the beginning.     May have been some weekend-type thing.
   5     But then it began to be a scheduled -- I was on the
   6     schedule.
   7     Q     Okay.   And was it during this period of time where you
   8     were providing care through Elder Services that some form of
   9     relationship developed with Mr. Kuntz?
 10      A     I don't remember the exact -- I don't remember the exact
 11      time frame of all that.
 12      Q     Well, you married him?
 13      A     March 27th of 2004.
 14      Q     And I'm assuming that you had some romantic relationship
 15      with him before you married him?
 16      A     I don't know the exact date.
 17      Q     I'm not asking you for the exact date.            Would it be fair
 18      that you had a relationship --
 19      A     Yes.
 20      Q     -- that was more than platonic with Mr. Kuntz before you
 21      married him?
 22      A     Yes, sir.
 23      Q     Okay.   And all I asked you, ma'am, was whether or not
 24      that occurred -- that relationship developed during the
 25      periods of time that you were providing care through Elder


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   1     Services?
   2     A     To my best knowledge, I don't believe so.              I believe
   3     that it occurred after he started paying me privately.
   4     Q     Okay.   So when did he start --
   5     A     But I'm not absolutely on that either.
   6     Q     When did he start paying you privately?
   7     A     You know, I know it's in our tax information, but I'm
   8     not -- I can't recall the exact date that all transitioned.
   9     But I believe it was potentially after October of 2001,
 10      because at that point he was no longer state pay.
 11      Q     All right.    So you met him for the first time, and I'll
 12      take these as roughly approximations or guesses, you met him
 13      for the first time in 2001?
 14      A     It might have even been a little bit -- it might have
 15      been in 2000.      Like I said, the dates --
 16      Q     But your best guess or estimate is that by October of
 17      2001 you were now providing care to him privately?
 18      A     After October.    So --
 19      Q     Okay.
 20      A     So after I got -- like the middle of October, October
 21      19th I believe is the -- October 19th I believe was when he
 22      had to go from Elder Services to private pay.
 23      Q     So you knew him for about a year before you started
 24      providing care to him privately?
 25      A     Approximately yes, sir.


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   1     Q     All right.    So if we say it's the end of 2001, did you
   2     provide care to him privately for 2002, 2003, through March
   3     of 2004, when you and he were married?
   4     A     Can you restate that question please?
   5     Q     Yeah.   If we say that you started providing private care
   6     to him at the end of 2001, you said October 2001, --
   7     A     (Nods head).
   8     Q       -- did you continue to provide private care to him in
   9     2002, 2003, through March of 2004?
 10      A     I believe so.    There were times where he would have
 11      other caregivers also provide services.
 12      Q     All right.    And did you have other work during that
 13      period of time, 2002, 2003, March of 2004?
 14      A     Yes, sir.    That's why he had other providers, because I
 15      couldn't be at two places at once.
 16      Q     All right.    And was there a set scale that Mr. Kuntz
 17      paid you?
 18      A     Yes, he paid me hourly.
 19      Q     And how much did he pay you per hour?
 20      A     It was a lot, but I would say anywhere from 20 to $25 an
 21      hour.    I don't recall the exact amount.
 22      Q     Okay.   Was that in excess of what you were earning in
 23      any other capacity?       Is that the highest hourly rate you
 24      earned at that time?
 25      A     Yes, sir.


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   1     Q     So he was generous with you?
   2     A     I don't know if it's generous or if that's --
   3     Q     If was above what the market was paying you otherwise?
   4     A     It was above what I did for physical therapy.                 But I'd
   5     never done a caregiving position before.
   6     Q     Okay.
   7     A     An in-home with that amount of work and that amount of
   8     --
   9     Q     All right.     During that period of time was there a
 10      formal proposal to be married from Mr. Kuntz to you or from
 11      you to Mr. Kuntz?
 12      A     During what period of time?
 13      Q     At any time prior to the marriage?
 14      A     A formal proposal?       What do you mean by that?
 15      Q     What do I mean by a proposal to marry you?
 16      A     A formal proposal?
 17      Q     Did Mr. Kuntz ask you to marry him?
 18      A     Yes, he did.
 19      Q     And when was that?
 20      A     December of '03 or January of '04.
 21      Q     And had you and Mr. Kuntz been intimate prior to the
 22      proposal?
 23      A     Yes, sir.
 24      Q     Okay.   And how long prior to the proposal were you and
 25      Mr. Kuntz first intimate?


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   1     A     Maybe some time in 2002.
   2     Q     All right.   So you worked with him again approximately
   3     October of 2001, when you first started to come up to the
   4     house and provide private care, and the first intimacy was
   5     some time in the following year?
   6     A     To my best recollection, but I'm not sure if that's
   7     accurate.
   8     Q     I'll take it as your best recollection.            And did you and
   9     he continue to be intimate up through the date of marriage,
 10      March of 2004?
 11      A     No.
 12      Q     On how many occasions, if you can recall, were you
 13      intimate with Mr. Kuntz, with the first time in 2002 until
 14      you were married to him in March of 2004?
 15      A     I don't recall that.
 16      Q     All right.   But, at any rate, you recall that in
 17      December of '03 or January of '04 Mr. Kuntz asked you to
 18      marry him; is that correct?
 19      A     Yes, sir.
 20      Q     And what did you say?
 21      A     Yes, sir.
 22      Q     Okay.   And was there a formal engagement ring presented
 23      to you?
 24      A     Not at the time he proposed.         He had bought it at
 25      Costco, and it came maybe a couple of weeks later.


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   1     Q     And did he give it to you a couple of weeks later?
   2     A     Yes, sir.
   3     Q     And did you start wearing it?
   4     A     Yes, sir.
   5     Q     And I guess what we do know is that you were married.
   6     Where did that event take place at?
   7     A     As stated before, Crossover Church.
   8     Q     And you continued to own your home on Forest Boulevard
   9     for some period of time after you and he were married?
 10      A     I believe until --
 11      Q     June of 2005, I think?        Does that sound about right?
 12      A     That sounds correct, uh-huh.
 13      Q     All right.   Who else was living with Jeff at the time
 14      that you married him?
 15      A     When we got married?
 16      Q     March of 2004, who else was living with Jeff?
 17      A     Courtney, his daughter.
 18      Q     Anybody else?
 19      A     I was his live-in caregiver.
 20      Q     Okay.   And where was he residing at the time?
 21      A     When we got married?
 22      Q     Uh-huh.
 23      A     Addison Court.
 24      Q     All right.   So the home on Dell had been disposed of?
 25      A     Disposed of meaning?


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   1     Q     Sold?
   2     A     He in the -- I believe in their marriage agreement
   3     Jennifer Kuntz was given that home.             I believe.
   4     Q     All right.   So at the time that you and Mr. Kuntz were
   5     married, he's living at Addison Court?
   6     A     (Nods head).
   7     Q     And you had a home at Forest Boulevard.             Did you move
   8     into Addison Court to live with your husband?
   9     A     At what point?
 10      Q     At marriage, ma'am?
 11      A     I believe I was -- I lived there prior to that because,
 12      like I said, I was became a live-in caregiver for him.
 13      Q     Okay.   So when did you start living at Addison Court?
 14      A     Probably from the time that he purchased the home.
 15      Q     Okay.   And when was that?        A year prior to marriage, six
 16      months prior to marriage?
 17      A     Maybe to my best guess would be -- I don't have the
 18      records in front of me, but -- so my best guess, I believe
 19      he purchased that home probably some time after August or
 20      October of 2001.
 21      Q     He bought that home January 28 --
 22      A     Or August of 2000.
 23      Q     All right.   Okay.    Now, your home on Forest Boulevard
 24      then, did you rent that property out after you commenced
 25      living with Mr. Kuntz?


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   1     A     I don't recall that.
   2     Q     Okay.
   3     A     But I don't believe so, to my best recollection.
   4     Q     So it sat empty until it was sold, I think, in June of
   5     2005 from the time that you started living with Mr. Kuntz?
   6     A     Yeah, and it was on the market for some time.               Oh, I'm
   7     not even sure about that.
   8     Q     Okay.   And there was a mortgage on that property?
   9     A     Yes, sir.
 10      Q     And did you pay the mortgage on that property until it
 11      was sold or did Mr. Kuntz pay it?
 12      A     Until 2004, when we got married, I paid the mortgage.
 13      Then when we got married we paid the mortgage.
 14      Q     All right.   By when you say "We paid the mortgage," what
 15      do you mean?
 16      A     Jeff and I paid the mortgage from our joint accounts.
 17      Q     Okay.   Now, after --
 18      A     I believe, to my best -- to my best knowledge.
 19      Q     All right.
 20      A     I'm not sure when I closed my own, you know, personal
 21      account that I had.
 22      Q     After you and Jeff married in March of 2004, let's talk
 23      about 2004, did he continue to pay you?
 24      A     I don't believe so.
 25      Q     Did you have a job outside of caring for your husband?


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   1     A     As stated before, I had to finish the contract at the
   2     school district.
   3     Q     All right.     And that went through June of 2004?
   4     A     Correct.     And it was difficult because I had to come
   5     home and --
   6     Q     I didn't ask you if it was difficult, ma'am.                 I asked
   7     you if that was through June 2004?
   8     A     Yes, sir.
   9     Q     All right.     And did you have a job after that?
 10      A     Yes, taking care of him and his kids.
 11      Q     All right.    For which you were not paid?
 12      A     Yes.
 13      Q     All right.    And did you have a job in 2005 for which you
 14      were paid?
 15      A     No, sir.
 16      Q     Or 2006 or 2007?
 17      A     No, sir.
 18      Q     All right.    So the first employment that you have had
 19      since June of 2004, having quit the school district, would
 20      have been after you had separated from Mr. Kuntz; is that
 21      correct?
 22      A     Can you restate that question, please?
 23      Q     The first employment that you've had since June of 2004
 24      would be after you separated from Mr. Kuntz?
 25      A     I believe that's the case.


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   1     Q     All right.   So --
   2     A     I may have had some other on call -- just let me finish.
   3     I just want to -- I may have had other on-call positions,
   4     but I believe I had -- at that same time all my jobs had to
   5     be -- were done.
   6     Q     All right.   Ms. Kuntz, are the tax returns that you and
   7     your husband filed accurate?
   8     A     To my best knowledge, yes.
   9     Q     All right.   And if I were to represent to you that the
 10      only wages that are reported in your personal tax returns
 11      after 2004 was $113 in 2005, do you know if that would be
 12      accurate?     Do you want me to show this information to you?
 13                     MR. HALL:     You mean 113,000?
 14                     MR. SALINA:      $113.
 15                     MR. HALL:     Dollars?
 16                     MR. SALINA:      $113?
 17      A     Yes, if I could look at that --
 18      Q     (By Mr. Salina)     Sure.     Sure.      All right.     Ms. Kuntz,
 19      I'm going to take you to 2005.
 20      A     Thank you.
 21      Q     And if you look at line seven under "Wages," what does
 22      it report?
 23      A     $113.
 24      Q     All right.   And is that accurate?
 25      A     I believe so.


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   1     Q     All right.    2006, any wages reported in 2006?
   2     A     On line seven also?
   3     Q     Yes?
   4     A     No, sir.
   5     Q     Okay.   And in 2007, any wages reported on line seven?
   6     A     No, sir.
   7     Q     All right.    So in 2005, the wages being $113, and your
   8     property on Forest not having been sold until June of 2005,
   9     --
 10      A     Yes, sir.
 11      Q     -- the mortgage was being paid from Mr. Kuntz' income as
 12      his separate property, wasn't it?
 13                    MR. HALL:      Object to the form of the question.
 14      Q     (By Mr. Salina)     You didn't have any income, did you, in
 15      2005?
 16      A     Income as far as working outside?             Can you restate?
 17      Q     The income as reported on line seven of the tax return?
 18      A     On line seven it reports no income.
 19      Q     Thank you.
 20      A     You're right.
 21      Q     So at the time of marriage you had property on Forest
 22      Boulevard.    What other assets did you have at marriage?
 23      A     When we got married?        When Jeff and I got married?
 24      Q     That's what I said.
 25      A     I had a personal bank account.


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   1     Q     And where was that at?
   2     A     Bank of America.      I'm sorry, Numerica Credit Union.
   3     Q     And what was the balance at marriage?
   4     A     I don't recall.
   5     Q     Okay.     And what happened to those funds?
   6     A     I can't -- I don't recall exact transactions, what
   7     happened with those funds.          But potentially we --
   8     Q     Are you guessing now?
   9     A     I don't recall what happened to those funds.
 10      Q     Okay.    Did you have a car?
 11      A     When I married Jeff?
 12      Q     Uh-huh.
 13      A     Yes.
 14      Q     What were you driving?
 15      A     A Honda -- I believe I was driving a Honda, but I don't
 16      recall if that's absolutely correct.
 17      Q     Okay.    Whether it be a Honda or otherwise, what happened
 18      to the car that you owned at the marriage?
 19      A     I believe we sold that to John and Cindy Sinta, friends
 20      of ours.
 21      Q     How much did you sell it for?
 22      A     I don't recall the exact amount.
 23      Q     Guess.
 24      A     I know that they paid payments to us.              That's what I do
 25      know for sure.      I don't know what the exact payments were,


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   1     and I can't give you a best guess.
   2     Q     Well, was it less than $10,000?
   3     A     Yes, sir.
   4     Q     Was it less than $5,000?
   5     A     In between five and ten.       I'm not sure what the accurate
   6     amount is.
   7     Q     Was there a debt on the car?
   8     A     When we sold it?
   9     Q     Yes.
 10      A     I don't believe so.
 11      Q     All right.
 12      A     I think it was paid.
 13      Q     So you had a house, you had a car, you had a bank
 14      account?
 15      A     Uh-huh.
 16      Q     Did you have any investments, any stocks or bonds?
 17      A     I don't know if they would have been stocks or bonds,
 18      but with going back to working with the school district I
 19      had a retirement account, and I believe it was called a SERS
 20      plan.
 21      Q     Probably a TERS plan?
 22      A     I believe it was SERS.
 23      Q     And what did you have in that account?
 24      A     I can't recall the exact amount.
 25      Q     All right.


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   1     A     But I believe it was a 401(k).
   2     Q     And what was the disposition?            What happened to that
   3     account?
   4     A     What happened to that account?
   5     Q     Yeah, does that still exist?
   6     A     No, sir.
   7     Q     Did you cash it in?
   8     A     Yes, sir.
   9     Q     And what did you receive?
 10      A     I don't remember the exact amount, but maybe --
 11      Q     Are you guessing?
 12      A     -- in the ballpark --
 13      Q     Are you guessing?
 14      A     Can I finish?
 15      Q     I'm asking you are you guessing?
 16      A     I'm giving you my best estimate.             My best estimate is
 17      between the ballpark of 3,500 to 4,000.
 18      Q     And what happened to that money?
 19      A     In my bank account.
 20      Q     You put it into your bank account?
 21      A     Uh-huh.
 22      Q     In your name?
 23      A     Yes.   Let's go back to this.          It was --
 24      Q     Go back to what?
 25      A     My SERS retirement.       I did not cash that out until after


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   1     Jeff and I had started going through the divorce process.
   2     Q     Okay.
   3     A     So that was not when we were -- it was still -- after I
   4     quit my job I still had it, kind of forgot about it, and
   5     then I didn't -- I cashed it, I think, I believe, after --
   6     maybe six months or so after we started going through the
   7     divorce process.
   8     Q     So you cashed it in after the divorce was filed?
   9     A     Uh-huh.
 10      Q     And during the period of time that the restraining order
 11      was in effect relative to liquidating assets?
 12      A     Yeah, I believe so.
 13      Q     Okay.   At any rate, you got that money and you used it
 14      as you saw fit?
 15      A     Yes, sir.
 16      Q     Okay.   What other investments, stocks or bonds, if any,
 17      did you have at the time that you and Jeff were married in
 18      March of '04?
 19      A     At the time we got married or during the marriage?
 20      Q     It's always at the time of marriage.            Every question so
 21      far on this topic is at the time of marriage.               This question
 22      is at the time of marriage.
 23      A     Thank you for clarifying.
 24      Q     I'm happy to do so.
 25      A     With that, that would be all, sir.


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   1     Q     Okay.   Did you own some household furniture, personal
   2     property?
   3     A     Yes, sir.
   4     Q     Okay.   And did that stay in the home at Forest Boulevard
   5     while that home was sitting vacant while you were trying to
   6     sell it?
   7     A     To my best knowledge, but some of those things may have
   8     been brought to the Addison Court also.                Like a bread maker.
   9     Q     Did you sell most of them?
 10      A     A -- no, Christopher -- to my best of my knowledge,
 11      Christopher, who was my previous husband, was allowed to
 12      take furnishings and things out of the home.
 13      Q     You allowed him to take it?
 14      A     It was in the decree that we set up.
 15      Q     All right.   But you were divorced from him in, what,
 16      2000?
 17      A     I was divorced, as stated earlier, 2001.
 18      Q     Okay.
 19      A     Or --
 20      Q     Here's my question, ma'am.        The time that you and Jeff
 21      were married, was there personal property in your home at
 22      Forest Boulevard or was it empty?
 23      A     There probably -- there wasn't that much stuff left.
 24      Yes, there was some personal property.                Yes, sir.
 25      Q     And so I assume you had a bed there?


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   1     A     Yes, sir.
   2     Q     And you didn't sleep on the floor, right?
   3     A     (Nods head).
   4     Q     Is that accurate?
   5     A     Yes, sir.
   6     Q     All right.   Did you have a dresser?
   7     A     I don't remember exact details of what furnishings were
   8     left in my house.
   9     Q     Well, was the home pretty much empty after you and your
 10      husband divorced and while you were still living there?                     Did
 11      he get most of the personal property out of the house?
 12      A     I don't recall exactly how it was divided.
 13      Q     Well, tell me what was in the house after he got the
 14      stuff that he was awarded.
 15      A     I don't recall.
 16      Q     You don't recall what was in the house?
 17      A     I don't recall exact details of the furnishings that
 18      were left in the home.
 19      Q     Did you have a couch and a love seat?
 20      A     I don't recall that.
 21      Q     Did you have an entertainment center?
 22      A     I don't recall the exact --
 23      Q     Was there a living room, ma'am?
 24      A     Yes, there was.
 25      Q     Was there something to sit on in the living room, or


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   1     would you sit on the floor?
   2     A     I'm sure there was, but I don't know -- like I'm saying,
   3     I don't recall the exact furnishings that were in left in
   4     the home.
   5     Q     I'm not asking you for the exact furnishings.               Did you
   6     have a dining room?
   7     A     A dining room?
   8     Q     Did you have a dining room in the home?
   9     A     No.
 10      Q     Okay.   So you had a kind of a kitchenette in the kitchen
 11      that you dined at or that you took your meals at?
 12      A     It was in between the -- there was a living room, the
 13      table was right there, and the kitchen was right there.
 14      Q     So you had a table?
 15      A     I'm not saying I had a table.          I don't recall what
 16      furnishings were left when my husband and I divorced.
 17      Q     Well, would it be inaccurate for me to say that your
 18      home sounded like it was pretty empty and devoid of a lot of
 19      furniture after your husband got -- your former husband got
 20      what he was awarded?
 21      A     I don't recall.
 22      Q     Okay.   Now, you said in your declaration when you sold
 23      Forest Boulevard that you netted $30,000.              Do you remember
 24      saying that?
 25      A     I believe it was a best guess or an approximate one.


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   1     Q     Okay.    And is your memory on that better today than it
   2     was when you filed that declaration?
   3     A     Yeah, I saw the documents.
   4     Q     Okay.    What did you see?
   5     A     19,000 such.
   6     Q     Okay.
   7     A     And some change.
   8     Q     And what was the disposition?           What happened to those
   9     funds?
 10      A     To my best recollection, I believe it either went into
 11      -- I believe it went into our joint account.
 12      Q     Okay.    Do you have any evidence to that effect other
 13      than your recollection?
 14      A     I don't.    That's something -- that's something we --
 15      that I have been working on with to pull up from Bank of
 16      America.      Or, from Numerica.
 17      Q     Have you seen an account statement that indicates that
 18      that money, the $19,000, was deposited to a joint account
 19      with Jeff Kuntz?
 20      A     I haven't seen the statement in front of me, no.
 21      Q     All right.    And you've tried to get it?
 22      A     I just recently, yes.       They're working on getting my
 23      personal account at Numerica so that I can look over those
 24      bank statements.
 25      Q     When you say "personal account at Numerica," I thought


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   1     you said you thought the money was deposited to a joint
   2     account at Bank of America?
   3     A     I believe that's the case, but I want to be correct.                   I
   4     -- as I -- we were divorced, I did not have privilege to any
   5     of the accounts and those sort of things.               And we've done
   6     our due diligence and try to get the accounts and go through
   7     that sort of thing.      To my best knowledge, I have not seen
   8     that exact number.
   9     Q     Okay.
 10      A     I believe I heard that number or saw that number off of
 11      a report, is what I believe is correct.
 12      Q     Did you have any cash value in any life insurance at the
 13      time that you and Jeff were married?
 14      A     I do not believe so.
 15      Q     Did you have any health insurance at the time that you
 16      and Jeff were married?
 17      A     Yes, through the school district.
 18      Q     All right.
 19      A     And dental.
 20                    MR. SALINA:      Let's go off the record here.
 21                           (Off the record.)
 22                         (Lunch recess taken.)
 23      Q     (By Mr. Salina)    Okay.     Good afternoon, Ms. Kuntz.
 24      A     Good afternoon.
 25      Q     Over the break here, the lunch break, were you able to


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   1     think of any other assets that you owned at the time that
   2     you and Jeff were married?
   3     A     I'm glad that you asked because as I began to think
   4     about it, the house on -- that I had on Forest Boulevard, I
   5     believe my bedroom furniture that I had, it did get moved to
   6     the Addison Court house.         And Courtney -- I believe his
   7     daughter Courtney had that bedroom furniture.
   8     Q     Okay.   Anything else?
   9     A     That's the only thing I could come up with as far as
 10      furniture and those -- those sort of things.
 11      Q     All right.   Any other assets, whether it be furniture or
 12      vehicles or stocks or bonds, anything else other than what
 13      we've discussed?
 14      A     Not to my recollection.
 15      Q     Did you have any debt at marriage?               Debt on the home.
 16      Other than that, did you have any other debt?
 17      A     I don't believe so.      But car payment -- I may have still
 18      had a car payment, but I'm not 100 percent sure on that.
 19      Q     Okay.   Now, Mr. Kuntz had had providers in the home
 20      before you.     And I'll use that term providers.                Is that an
 21      appropriate term to use for what?
 22      A     Caregiver.
 23      Q     Caregiver?
 24      A     (Nods head).
 25      Q     Okay.   Do you know if any of those caregivers were put


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   1     on his checking account?
   2     A     In what time frame, please?
   3     Q     At any time frame?       Did any of Mr. Kuntz' caregivers
   4     ever -- were they ever named on his bank accounts?
   5     A     Yes, sir.
   6     Q     Okay.   And do you know how many of them previously had
   7     been named on his bank account?
   8     A     Previous to me or --
   9     Q     Yes, ma'am, previous to you?
 10      A     I don't know.    I don't know previous to me about his
 11      banking records.
 12      Q     Okay.
 13      A     Back to that question before then, were you asking
 14      previous to me or were you asking during our time of
 15      marriage?
 16                    MR. HALL:      He said any time.
 17                    THE WITNESS:        Any time?      Okay.
 18      Q     (By Mr. Salina)     Is your answer the same?
 19      A     Yes, please.
 20      Q     All right.   Now, other than the statements that are
 21      issued by the banks, --
 22      A     Yes.
 23      Q     -- did you and Mr. Kuntz maintain any separate records
 24      relative to your banking activity?
 25      A     Some -- some checking account registers but not much,


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   1     copies of cashier's checks.          Online -- we had online
   2     banking, so that's how we kept pretty good track of incoming
   3     and outgoing and what was going on with our banking account.
   4     Q     All right.    And the online banking would be no more than
   5     a record of the deposits and the withdrawals like you'd find
   6     in a bank statement, correct?
   7     A     I believe.    And checks.      I'm not a hundred percent sure
   8     of checks, if you could see checks that were written.                      But I
   9     believe those would be on there also.
 10      Q     All right.    Did you maintain any type of what I'll call
 11      as a general ledger to keep track of how much you were
 12      spending on food or gas or recreation?                 Anything like that?
 13      A     (Shakes head).
 14      Q     All right.    The response is no?
 15      A     No, we did not.
 16      Q     All right.    Did you maintain any type of Quicken report
 17      at all or any type of computerized report that was generated
 18      by someone in the home, you, Jeff, somebody else, other than
 19      what the bank generated?
 20      A     No, sir.
 21      Q     Now, you indicated that you wrote the majority of the
 22      checks; is that correct?
 23      A     Yes.
 24      Q     All right.    And did you also -- did anyone reconcile the
 25      bank accounts with any regularly?


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   1     A     I don't understand what that means.              Can you --
   2     Q     Did anyone with regularity sit down with the bank
   3     statements to ensure that the bank account statements
   4     reflected the correct and accurate banking activity during
   5     that period of time?
   6     A     We looked at it online, but I would say we weren't very
   7     good at doing that, no.
   8     Q     All right.    Was there a prenuptial agreement in this
   9     case?
 10      A     No.    Jeff was --
 11      Q     Is the answer no?
 12      A     The answer's no.     Jeff, by his --
 13      Q     Thank you.    That's all I need.         Was there a community
 14      property agreement --
 15      A     Can I continue on with that question?
 16      Q     No, you answered my question.           Was there a community
 17      property agreement in this case?
 18      A     I don't understand what that means.              Can you --
 19      Q     Was there any documents that you signed that you
 20      understood that converted all property to community
 21      property?
 22      A     In the course of our marriage?
 23      Q     Yes.
 24      A     Documents as far as signing paperwork and for housing
 25      and clothing and all that sort of thing.


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   1     Q     No, it would be called something like a community
   2     property agreement.       It would be a document that would be
   3     entitled "Community Property Agreement" or something along
   4     those lines that specifically says "Whatever I have or
   5     whatever we have is all community property"?
   6     A     I don't believe so.
   7     Q     Okay.   All right.    Why was Overcomer Outreach formed?
   8     A     To help individuals in the West Central neighborhood
   9     that were poverty stricken.         We had a food bank and a thrift
 10      store, and our goal was to reach out to the people in that
 11      neighborhood and share the love of Jesus with them.
 12      Q     And when did that concept first get discussed?
 13      A     I don't remember the exact date.
 14      Q     Was it during the marriage?
 15      A     I don't remember.    I don't recall the exact date.
 16      Q     Okay.   Do you recall whether -- I'm not asking you for
 17      the exact date.     Do you know whether or not those
 18      discussions relative to the formation of Overcomer Outreach
 19      were held prior to the marriage with Jeff, did they start
 20      during the marriage with Jeff or do you know?
 21      A     I don't recall.
 22      Q     Okay.   And whose idea was it?
 23      A     Collectively ours together.
 24      Q     Okay.   And is Overcomer Outreach, was it operational for
 25      a period of time?     Did it do the work that you described?


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   1     A     To the best of its ability, yes.
   2     Q     Okay.   Tell me what you did within the umbrella of
   3     Overcomer Outreach.
   4     A     What my --
   5     Q     What you and/or Jeff or anybody else did.             What was the
   6     business enterprise that was actually put in place?
   7     A     The -- it was a 501(c)3, non-profit.
   8     Q     And what work did it do?
   9     A     We had a thrift store and a food bank.
 10      Q     Okay.   And do you recall the event leading up to the
 11      purchase of the thrift store?
 12      A     Event meaning?   Can you --
 13      Q     Well, did you shop for the thrift store?
 14      A     Go into there to view the building and that sort of
 15      thing?
 16      Q     Yes?
 17      A     Yes, I went with Jeff to look at the building.
 18      Q     Okay.   And Jeff went with you?
 19      A     We, I believe, went to that location a few times, and I
 20      don't -- I know that at one time he was with me.                 I don't
 21      know if every single time that we went there that we were
 22      together.
 23      Q     All right.   And is this the property at 1804 West
 24      Broadway?
 25      A     Yes, sir.


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   1     Q     All right.     And do you remember when that was purchased?
   2     A     I don't remember off hand.          If I had the records in
   3     front of me, I could give you a date.
   4     Q     Okay.     Did you utilize a realtor for the acquisition of
   5     this property?
   6     A     I believe Wendy Hughes.
   7     Q     Okay.     And I'm looking at, Ms. Kuntz, a settlement
   8     statement dated November 17th, 2004, which purports -- I'll
   9     tell you purports to be the acquisition of the property at
 10      1804 West Broadway.       Does that sound about the right time
 11      under which it was acquired?
 12      A     Can I look at the document?
 13      Q     No, I'm just asking you if that sounds about the right
 14      time?
 15      A     When was the date, please?
 16      Q     The date I'm looking at was November of 2004.
 17      A     For purchasing the store on Broadway?
 18      Q     Uh-huh.    Does that refresh your recollection?
 19      A     In that time frame, yes.
 20      Q     All right.    And was the purchaser Overcomer Outreach?
 21      A     The exact details of that, I'm not -- there was a lot of
 22      transfers of, you know, properties going from --
 23      Q     Ma'am, listen to my question.            The question is, was
 24      Overcomer Outreach the purchaser of that property?                    If you
 25      don't know, you can tell me.


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   1     A     I don't recall that.       I believe --
   2     Q     Do you know what was paid?
   3     A     I believe so, but it came out of personal funds.
   4     Q     Do you know what was paid for it?            I didn't ask you what
   5     funds it came out of.
   6     A     I'm sorry.
   7     Q     Would you answer my question, please?
   8     A     Yes, sir.
   9     Q     All right.    Do you know what was paid for it?
 10      A     We, I believe, entered -- I don't know the exact amount
 11      of what it was paid for, but I believe we did a -- we
 12      entered into an agreement, and we paid a large sum down and
 13      then paid another amount and then paid another large sum, I
 14      believe, but I'm not 100 percent accurate.
 15      Q     All right.    And was a thrift store opened up?
 16      A     Yes, sir.
 17      Q     And did it operate?
 18      A     Yes, sir.
 19      Q     And how long did it operate?
 20      A     I don't recall.
 21      Q     Okay.   Was it a year, two years?
 22      A     I don't recall.
 23      Q     Did you work in the store?
 24      A     Yes, I did.
 25      Q     And what did you do?


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   1     A     I did cashiering.    I set the whole store up.             I did the
   2     food bank.     I did -- I unloaded crates of -- pallets of food
   3     from the back of Jeff's truck.          I unloaded Costco loads,
   4     pallets of Costco loads.        I priced items.        I pretty much did
   5     every aspect of the thrift store.
   6     Q     Okay.
   7     A     Besides going to the food bank.
   8     Q     All right.   And was the food bank in the store?
   9     A     Yes, sir.
 10      Q     Okay.   And how long did you participate in those
 11      activities that you've just described?
 12      A     As long as the business was going.
 13      Q     And you have no idea how long that was?
 14      A     (Shakes head).
 15      Q     This was purchased in '04, so we're talking about
 16      roughly six years ago, not that long ago.              You have no idea
 17      whether you had it for a year or two or three?
 18      A     I know at some point we -- before we sold it I know, you
 19      know, maybe three to six months before that we stopped
 20      operating the store.
 21      Q     So you have no recollection how much longer you worked
 22      in this capacity?
 23      A     (Shakes head).
 24      Q     All right.   Did Jeff work at the store?
 25      A     Yes.


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   1     Q     All right.   Did you have employees?
   2     A     We had Career Path Services that donated people to us
   3     and then they paid their wages.           And I believe we may have
   4     had -- we may have had some employees, but I'm not 100
   5     percent sure on that.      I don't know if they call came --
   6     Cliff Bowens, I know either we paid him through the ministry
   7     -- yes, John Hixson and Cliff, yes, we did.
   8     Q     Okay.   Now, this was a non-profit enterprise, I gather?
   9     It was an outreach, as you described it?
 10      A     501(c)(3) non-profit.
 11      Q     And what was the disposition of this property?                What
 12      happened to it?
 13      A     Meaning where did it go after --
 14      Q     Yeah, I think you said it was sold?
 15      A     I believe we gave the property -- donated the property
 16      to All Nations Christian Center, and then they sold the
 17      property.
 18      Q     All right.   So you and Mr. Kuntz, through the Overcomer
 19      Outreach organization, whether you bought it personally or
 20      this non-profit bought it, it was owned, it was operated and
 21      then it was given away?
 22      A     Yes, sir.
 23      Q     All right.   And it was purchased in November of 2004?
 24      Again, that sounds about right?
 25      A     To the best of my knowledge.


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   1     Q     All right.   And did you contribute any funds towards the
   2     acquisition of this property from your separate property?
   3                   Let me back you up.           That's probably a poor
   4     question.    Your $19,000 wasn't generated until June of '05,
   5     I think, for Forest Boulevard.            So none of that money went
   6     into this acquisition?
   7     A     Correct, that would seem to be the case.
   8     Q     All right.   Did your car proceeds -- was your car sold
   9     before November of 2004?
 10      A     That -- I don't recall that.
 11      Q     So did you contribute any separate property towards the
 12      acquisition of this property?            Any of your separate property
 13      towards the acquisition of this property?
 14                    MR. HALL:      Any of her premarriage property?
 15                    MR. SALINA:       Yeah.
 16      A     I don't know.    I can't recall that because I don't know
 17      if the car was sold before that.             So if the car was sold
 18      before that, that could have been because money was mixed
 19      and joint in this bank account, that bank account.                    So it
 20      gets a little -- you know, a little confusing.
 21      Q     (By Mr. Salina)     All right.        But as of November of '04,
 22      the only money that you could have contributed would have
 23      been from the car proceeds, right?
 24      A     Unless at that point my -- we had transferred some
 25      personal monies from the private -- the bank account that I


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   1     had at that time.
   2     Q     And you don't know if you did or not?
   3     A     No, I don't recall that because I don't know when it was
   4     closed.
   5     Q     Okay.   Did Overcomer Outreach own any property other
   6     than the thrift store?
   7     A     Yes.
   8     Q     Tell me what that was.
   9     A     At one point the Lincoln -- 1511 Lincoln.
 10      Q     Okay.   Let's talk about 1511 Lincoln.
 11      A     Okay.
 12      Q     That property was owned by Jeff prior to marriage,
 13      wasn't it?
 14      A     I don't recall that.
 15      Q     Okay.   What property did Jeff have at marriage?               What
 16      property did he own at marriage that you were aware of or
 17      are now aware of?
 18      A     When we got married?
 19      Q     Yes, ma'am.
 20      A     The home that he lived in on Addison Court.
 21      Q     And was there any mortgage on that property?
 22      A     No, it was paid for.
 23      Q     Okay.   What else did he own?
 24      A     He may have owned a piece of property on Gardner.                 I'm
 25      not sure if those properties, which we don't even have in


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   1     the -- were purchased after we were married or before.
   2     Q     Okay.   What else did he own?
   3     A     Of properties or --
   4     Q     Anything?     Any other real estate that you're aware of
   5     that he owned at the time of marriage?
   6     A     He might have owned, but I'm not sure on the date of
   7     when we purchased, there was two 10-acre parcels on Half
   8     Moon Ranch, which we don't have in there either.
   9     Potentially.       But I'm not sure if those were right after we
 10      got married or right before.
 11      Q     Is that on Burke Road?
 12      A     Birch Road.
 13      Q     Birch Road?
 14      A     Yes.
 15      Q     Okay.   Any other real estate that you're aware of,
 16      ma'am, that he owned at the time of marriage?
 17      A     I'm not sure when the Lincoln -- as you asked before,
 18      I'm not sure when that property was purchased.
 19      Q     Did he have substantial savings at the time that you
 20      married him?
 21      A     Yes, sir.
 22      Q     All right.    And can you tell me approximately how much
 23      Mr. Kuntz had in the bank at the time that you married him?
 24      A     Maybe -- my best guess for me would be two to 2.3
 25      million.


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   1     Q     All right.   And do you know what the source of those
   2     funds was?
   3     A     Yes.
   4     Q     What was it?
   5     A     Personal injury.
   6     Q     Okay.   And at the time of your marriage to him, were you
   7     aware that he was going to receive additional money from
   8     that personal injury?
   9     A     At the time we got married it was still being appealed.
 10      Q     All right.   And did you know that --
 11      A     So potentially -- he could have potentially --
 12      Q     You were aware of that?
 13      A     Yes, sir.
 14      Q     And did you know how much that potential additional
 15      award would be?
 16      A     Yes, sir.
 17      Q     And how much?
 18      A     I believe like five million.
 19      Q     All right.   So at the time you married --
 20      A     It might have been a little bit more than that.
 21      Q     At the time that you married Mr. Kuntz, you were aware
 22      that there was an appeal pending, and if he won the appeal
 23      he would receive an additional five million dollars?
 24      A     Yes, sir.
 25      Q     And that he had at the time, and you were aware of this,


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   1     he had about 2.3 million dollars in the bank?
   2     A     Yes, sir.
   3     Q     All right.   Was the home fully appointed on Addison?
   4     A     What does that mean?
   5     Q     Furniture, couches, chairs, things you sit on?
   6     A     Yes, sir.
   7     Q     All right.   Did he have a car?
   8     A     Yes, sir.
   9     Q     Did he have more than one car?
 10      A     Yes.
 11      Q     Did he have any debt?
 12      A     Did I have any debt?
 13      Q     Did he have any debt?
 14      A     At the time we got married?         Going back to a prior
 15      question too, he might have had the Dairy Mart before we got
 16      married, purchased on 5th and Fisk.            And that I know he did
 17      a contract with, and so he may have had that debt.                  But I'm
 18      not sure when the time line of that was either.                So --
 19      Q     Okay.
 20      A     -- that just came to me.
 21      Q     Was the environment on Addison a much nicer environment
 22      in terms of material goods than what you had been familiar
 23      with where you lived on Forest Boulevard?
 24      A     I would say moderately, yeah.
 25      Q     Did your standard of living increase substantially once


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   1     you married Mr. Kuntz?
   2     A     I would say yes.
   3     Q     Yeah.   You said in your declaration, ma'am, that you
   4     were spending $30,000 a month?
   5     A     That I personally was spending $30,000 a month?
   6     Q     Out of the household account.          Does that sound about
   7     right?    Do you remember saying that in your declaration?
   8     A     Yeah.
   9     Q     Certainly before you married Mr. Kuntz you didn't make
 10      $30,000 a year?
 11      A     That's correct.    And I guess that would be who's
 12      spending the money versus --
 13      Q     All right.   So, at any rate, back to 1511 Lincoln.                That
 14      was transferred into Overcomer Outreach?
 15      A     And going back to that question you asked me, was it his
 16      personal that he originally bought it from or Overcomer
 17      Outreach, and I can't remember the exact details of that,
 18      but I know that transaction went back and forth a few times.
 19      Q     So, at any rate, Lincoln ends up in Overcomer Outreach;
 20      is that correct?
 21      A     I believe that's correct.
 22      Q     All right.   And was it used in some outreach capacity?
 23      A     Not really, I would say.
 24      Q     Was it ever a facility in which business was being
 25      conducted for the --


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   1     A      Overcomer Outreach?     Sorry, I interrupted you.
   2     Q      That's all right.    When Lincoln was transferred to
   3     Overcomer Outreach was it occupied?             Was it a rental
   4     property?      What do you recall?
   5     A      I believe that it was a work in progress.
   6     Q      Okay.
   7     A      It was pretty dilapidated.
   8     Q      So once it was transferred into Overcomer Outreach, was
   9     it utilized in this outreach program that you described or
 10      did it just sit vacant or what?
 11      A     There was people in there --
 12      Q     Doing what?
 13      A     -- temporarily.    There was a guy in there by the name of
 14      John Hixson that I believe stole $40,000 worth of stuff out
 15      of the place.      There was squatters at some point in there
 16      too.
 17      Q     Ma'am, okay.    Was it ever used for any enterprise, any
 18      business enterprise?
 19      A     I don't believe so.
 20      Q     All right.    And there was no food bank there or thrift
 21      store there?
 22      A     (Shakes head).
 23      Q     Or any type of business being conducted there?
 24      A     No, sir.
 25      Q     All right.    What happened to that property?


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   1     A     That property, like I said, went back and forth between
   2     personal/private a few times.            And then it was donated to
   3     All Nations Christian Center, and then we purchased it back.
   4     Q     All right.   And where was it transferred after it was
   5     purchased back?
   6     A     At that point Jeff and I may have been separated, so it
   7     could have been in his personal -- or, his account that he
   8     had his name on.
   9     Q     Do you know?
 10      A     I don't know.    I don't recall for 100 percent fact.
 11      Q     All right.   Was a decision to donate it to All Nations
 12      Christian Center a decision that you and he jointly made?
 13      A     Yes, sir.
 14      Q     Do you recall signing a deed to All Nations Christian
 15      Center along with Mr. Kuntz?
 16      A     I don't recall that.
 17      Q     At any rate, you joined with him and knew that it was
 18      being given to All Nations Christian Church, correct?
 19      A     Yes, we discussed it.
 20      Q     All right.   And how was it that it came back into
 21      ownership by Jeff or you or both of you?
 22      A     He -- Jeff really wanted to see it used for a different
 23      purpose than what the church was going to do with it.                     They
 24      were going to just sell it.           And Jeff wanted it to be used
 25      for a different purpose, so he decided to purchase the


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   1     property back and continue to make improvements on it.
   2     Q     Okay.   And when did that occur?
   3     A     I don't recall the exact date.
   4     Q     Was it after you and he separated?
   5     A     Could be during that time, yes.
   6     Q     All right.   So did you do any work on this building?
   7     A     Potentially some.    Stripping wallpaper and -- at the
   8     very beginning stage of it.
   9     Q     Okay.   Other than that, anything else?
 10      A     Potentially some stuff inside the home, yes.
 11      Q     Are you guessing?
 12      A     I am saying that to my recollection, my best of my
 13      recollection I did some work there.
 14      Q     What?
 15      A     Wallpaper stuff, repair stuff, those sort of things.
 16      Q     Do you remember why this property was purchased to begin
 17      with?    What the intended purpose for this property would be?
 18      A     Yes, single moms' home.
 19      Q     Pardon me?
 20      A     Single moms' home.
 21      Q     The next property I want to ask you about, Ms. Kuntz, is
 22      the property at 3002 East 5th.
 23      A     Okay.
 24      Q     And in the material it's been referred to as the -- as
 25      the B ball court.    Why was this property purchased?


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   1     A     So just the basketball court, the little basketball
   2     court?    We're not talking about the Dairy Mart?
   3     Q     We're talking about the property at 3002 East 5th.                 Do
   4     you know where that is?
   5     A     Yeah.   We have a -- there's a Dairy Mart, and then we
   6     have a basketball court that's adjoined.              So there's two --
   7     Q     I think I'm referring to the basketball court.
   8     A     Okay.   Specifically with the basketball court,
   9     originally ideas of having, you know, like camps there and
 10      stuff like that where kids could come play basketball.
 11      Q     Okay.
 12      A     And then some talks of changing it into a parking lot so
 13      that we'd have parking.
 14      Q     Parking for what?
 15      A     The building that we had at the Dairy Mart.              Because
 16      potentially we were going to turn that into a thrift store.
 17                    MR. HALL:    Is this the same as 3005?
 18                    MR. SALINA:     No.
 19      Q     (By Mr. Salina)   Do you know when this property was
 20      purchased?
 21      A     Like I talked about earlier, I'm not sure on that one.
 22      Whether that one was before we were -- we got married or
 23      right after we got married.
 24      Q     All right.   I'm going to tell you it was purchased on
 25      April 22nd of 2004, so about a month after you were married.


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   1     A     Uh-huh.
   2     Q     Do you know who purchased it?
   3     A     I believe Overcomer Outreach purchased it.                  Oh, I'm not
   4     sure.    That one went through a few different transactions
   5     also.
   6     Q     And do you know how much was paid for it?
   7     A     Originally we bought it, I believe, for about nine to
   8     ten thousand.      We traded a sound system too.
   9     Q     All right.     Paid $13,000 for it.
 10      A     Okay.
 11      Q     Okay?   According to the documents.               Do you know where
 12      that money came from?        Been married a month now.               Did it
 13      come from any of your separate property owned prior to
 14      marriage?
 15      A     Potentially.
 16      Q     How?
 17      A     If like the vehicle had been solden (sic) at that point.
 18      Q     Okay.
 19      A     I'm not sure whether the funds came from Overcomer
 20      Outreach directly.       A lot of times when we purchased things
 21      they came from the joint account and went into Overcomer
 22      Outreach.     And that's how we did the --
 23      Q     Is the answer, Ms. Kuntz, you don't know where the money
 24      came from?
 25      A     Yes, sir.


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   1     Q     What is this property worth in your opinion?
   2     A     I can't -- I don't -- I can't estimate that fairly, I
   3     don't believe.
   4     Q     Has this property ever been used in any enterprise?                   Has
   5     it ever generated any income?
   6     A     No, sir.
   7     Q     Has there been any additional expense for this property
   8     other than the cost of acquisition?
   9     A     Not since --not while we were in the house living
 10      together.
 11      Q     So whatever has been done on this property has been done
 12      since you and Jeff separated?
 13      A     If anything has been done, yes.
 14      Q     Let's go to the property at 3026 East 5th.               Is that the
 15      adjoining property?
 16      A     It doesn't directly adjoin it.           There's a building in
 17      between.
 18      Q     And is that what's commonly referred to as the "Old
 19      Supermarket"?
 20      A     I believe so, yes.
 21      Q     Okay.   And do you know when this property was purchased?
 22      A     Potentially right before we got married or potentially
 23      in that same time frame right after we got married.
 24      Q     Okay.   Purchased in June of 2004.           So that would be
 25      about three months after you and Jeff were married.                   Do you


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   1     know who bought it?
   2     A     I believe -- I'm not -- I can't recall that detail right
   3     now.    It would be us personally or Overcomer Outreach.
   4     Q     Do you know what was paid for it?
   5     A     I'm sorry?
   6     Q     Do you know what was paid for it?
   7     A     I don't know the exact amount.           Maybe 99,000.       I know
   8     that we put an initial down and then had to pay a large sum
   9     again and then pay another -- you know, we did some
 10      payments.     We made an agreement with the people.
 11      Q     Did you contribute any of your separate property, i.e.,
 12      property that you owned prior to marriage, towards the
 13      acquisition of this property?
 14      A     At that point my house hadn't been sold.
 15      Q     So maybe the car proceeds?
 16      A     Yeah.
 17      Q     Okay.
 18      A     Potentially.
 19      Q     All right.   What was the purpose of buying the property
 20      at 3026 East 5th?
 21      A     We were thinking about doing another thrift store in
 22      that location.
 23      Q     Okay.   And what was done to develop that project?
 24      A     I don't recall that we put -- we may have put some money
 25      into it, but -- but I believe that Jacob's Well, who


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   1     occupies it now, I believe they did a lot of the updating
   2     and those sort of things out of their money.                 But I believe
   3     we did put some money in too, like electrical and those sort
   4     of things.
   5     Q     You say you may have.        Does that mean that you may not
   6     have put any money into it?
   7     A     I believe we did put money into it.
   8     Q     How much?
   9     A     I don't recall the amount.
 10      Q     And for what?
 11      A     And for what?    I don't understand what you're asking.
 12      Q     How was that money expended, to the extent that you may
 13      have put money into it?
 14      A     Do you mean how were the repairs done?              What did we use
 15      it for?
 16      Q     What did you use it for
 17      A     Repairs for the building.
 18      Q     Okay.   You mentioned Jacob's Well occupied this
 19      property?
 20      A     I believe they do now.        You guys have the lease
 21      agreement.
 22      Q     I'm not testifying, ma'am.          Do you know if Jacob's Well
 23      occupies this property?
 24      A     I believe they do.
 25      Q     And do you know when they started occupying this


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   1     property?
   2     A     I don't know the exact date.
   3     Q     Was it occupied at any time before you and Jeff
   4     separated?
   5     A     Yes, sir.
   6     Q     Okay.   And did they pay rent?
   7     A     There was an -- I believe there was an initial agreement
   8     -- I don't know the exact details of it.                 I know there was
   9     some transactions.       I know there was some lease agreement
 10      set up that I believe Jeff gave them grace for a year of a
 11      certain part of the building, and some of it was -- I
 12      believe was paid -- I believe rent was taken for it.                     But I
 13      don't know the exact details.
 14      Q     Is the answer, yes, that there was some rent paid?
 15      A     I don't know the exact details.
 16      Q     All right.   Well, I'll just ask you again.                Do you know
 17      if rent was paid?
 18      A     I don't know.    I don't recall.
 19      Q     So the answer is you don't know?
 20      A     I don't have the information.
 21      Q     Is that the answer, you don't know?
 22      A     I don't recall that information.
 23      Q     All right.   You say it was purchased.              I think you said
 24      it was purchased by Overcomer Outreach.                 Is this property
 25      still owned by Overcomer Outreach or held by Overcomer


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   1     Outreach?
   2     A     I believe the statement I made before is I wasn't sure
   3     whether Overcomer Outreached purchased the property --
   4     Q     Fair enough.
   5     A     -- or whether we did.
   6     Q     I'll abide by whatever your previous testimony is.
   7     A     Thank you, sir.
   8     Q     Is it still held by whoever originally purchased it?
   9     A     I believe at some point the Bernard one -- no, I believe
 10      it's now in personal.
 11      Q     Held personally?
 12      A     I believe, but I'm not sure.          A lot of properties went
 13      through a few different transactions, being swapped back and
 14      forth.
 15      Q     I'm not interested in history.           I'm interested in just
 16      an answer to my question.         Do you know how it's held or who
 17      holds it?
 18      A     I don't.    Thank you.
 19      Q     Okay.   Did you personally do any work on this property?
 20      A     I believe the only work I would have done was clearing a
 21      bunch of thrift store -- out thrift store items and garbage
 22      out of the building at the point of when Jacob's Well was
 23      going to take over part of the building.               Because we had
 24      intended to put a thrift store there, so we had a lot of
 25      stuff in there.


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   1     Q     All right.   Let's move on then to 2907 East Everett.                   Do
   2     you have that property in mind?
   3     A     Yes.
   4     Q     And why was this property acquired?
   5     A     With the intention of putting men from prison that are
   6     on a -- like a release program and renting it out to them.
   7     Q     And do you know when it was acquired?
   8     A     I don't know the exact date.
   9     Q     Give me your best estimate.
 10      A     It was after -- it was after we were married.
 11      Q     Okay.   And do you know who acquired it?
 12      A     I believe God's Property & Development.
 13      Q     All right.   So you think that was actually the
 14      purchaser?
 15      A     I believe so.
 16      Q     Okay.   And do you know what was paid for it?
 17      A     I don't recall the exact amount.
 18      Q     Do you know where the funds came from that were used to
 19      pay for it?
 20      A     I believe out of our joint account and potentially
 21      transferred into the God's Property & Development account
 22      and then taken from there.          But I'm not exact on that.
 23      Q     Is that a guess?
 24      A     That's what I recall from the event.
 25      Q     Okay.   After this property was purchased, Ms. Kuntz, on


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   1     2907 East Everett, what purpose was it put to?
   2     A     We -- as stated previously, we put men in there that
   3     were on a work release program from prison, and they rented
   4     the facilities from us.
   5     Q     Okay.   Who was it rented to?
   6     A     Multitudes of different people.
   7     Q     To agencies or to individuals?
   8     A     Individuals.
   9     Q     So people who had been released from prison would come
 10      in as private citizens and rent a space directly from God's
 11      Property in this instance?         Is that the way it worked?
 12      A     I believe that's the way it worked.
 13      Q     All right.   And so when the property was acquired, 2907
 14      East Everett, that was a former family home, residence?
 15      A     Former -- by the people that owned it prior to us?
 16      Q     Well, was it a residence at one time?             Was this a home?
 17      A     That we -- I don't understand your question.                Can you
 18      rephrase it, please?
 19      Q     Sure.   At the time that it was acquired, --
 20      A     Okay.
 21      Q     -- which happened to be in May of 2005, so about a year
 22      after you and Jeff were married, what was the condition of
 23      this property when you purchased it?              What had it been
 24      previously utilized for?
 25      A     I believe a rental.


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   1     Q     All right.    So housing?
   2     A     Yes.
   3     Q     And it had a multitude of bedrooms?
   4     A     No, it was a four-plex.
   5     Q     Okay.
   6     A     So two apartments upstairs, one on the front and one on
   7     the back.
   8     Q     All right.    And after acquisition was there additional
   9     improvements made or monies spent on this property?
 10      A     Yes, sir.
 11      Q     Okay.   And how much money was spent?
 12      A     I don't recall the exact amount, but we put a
 13      significant amount of money into it.
 14      Q     Can you give me any idea at all?
 15      A     No, sir.
 16      Q     Okay.   And then individuals would enter into rental
 17      agreements, and they would live there, and they would pay
 18      rent while they were occupying the property?
 19      A     Yes, sir.
 20      Q     Okay.   And if I tell you that the property was acquired
 21      in May of 2005, how long did that operation, if I can use
 22      that term, how long was that operation conducted where you
 23      were renting to people who were being released from prison?
 24      A     I believe until he -- I don't know the exact date -- but
 25      entered into an agreement with Anthony Spitalery to purchase


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   1     the home.
   2     Q     All right.     And so this property has been sold initially
   3     to the Spitalerys?
   4     A     It was -- there was a -- a transaction that happened
   5     that we carried the loan and he paid us.                Or, we didn't
   6     carry it, actually.       We had a loan agreement set up, and he
   7     paid like $714 a month through wherever -- some amount, I
   8     don't know the exact amount, through a company, and they
   9     sent us a check.
 10      Q     My question was, did you sell the property to the
 11      Spitalerys?
 12      A     Yes, sir.
 13      Q     All right.   And this rental arrangement that you've been
 14      describing continued up until that sale?
 15      A     It may have.    I don't remember the exact details, but
 16      may have ended prior to -- a little bit before that.                    I
 17      don't know the exact details.
 18      Q     Okay.   Now, the rent that came from this property,
 19      Everett, was it -- where was it deposited?
 20      A     Joint accounts.     Or potentially in the God's Property &
 21      Development account.
 22      Q     Okay.
 23      A     Or sometimes cash was --
 24      Q     Do you know where it was deposited, ma'am, or are you
 25      just guessing?


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   1     A     I'm telling you those three locations would be where it
   2     was deposited.
   3     Q     So there was no real rigid as to where it was deposited?
   4     It was deposited to the personal account, to a God's
   5     Property account, I think you said, and a third account?
   6     A     No, if cash was given Jeff could have just taken it and
   7     spent it.       That's kind of what happened.
   8     Q     Okay.     Was there any rhyme or reason as to why on some
   9     occasions it would be deposited into the personal account
 10      and some occasions it would be deposited to the God's
 11      Property account?
 12      A     I just did what he asked me to do.
 13      Q     I see.    And just did it?
 14      A     Uh-huh.
 15      Q     Okay.    So was there no effort then to segregate the
 16      funds one way or the other?
 17      A     (Shakes head).     Not a -- not a real good effort, no.
 18      Q     Okay.    Did you do any work on this property, on 2907
 19      East Everett?
 20      A     I don't recall.
 21      Q     Okay.
 22      A     I may have done some.        I don't recall.
 23      Q     Why was it ultimately sold?
 24      A     When?
 25      Q     When it was sold to the Spitalerys, ma'am?                Why was it


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   1     ultimately sold to the Spitalerys in 2007?
   2     A     Because he -- Anthony Spitalery moved to Spokane from
   3     Cleveland, and he needed a -- a housing deal.               And we did a
   4     contract and came up with an agreement.
   5     Q     Is it still being used as some form of an outreach
   6     facility?
   7     A     I believe it was -- I believe since that time it's been
   8     sold, but I don't have recollection of that because those
   9     transactions would have happened after I moved out.
 10      Q     Was the enterprise whereby you were renting it to former
 11      inmates, was that a successful enterprise from your
 12      perspective?     And successful meaning that you were doing
 13      God's work, you were helping people?
 14      A     I believe it was a rental place for us to collect money.
 15      Q     All right.
 16      A     So I believe that the people that moved in there paid
 17      what they would normally pay if they rented another place.
 18      Q     So you didn't view this as a charitable enterprise?
 19      This was a for-profit enterprise?
 20      A     I believe it was.
 21      Q     Okay.   And the decision to ultimately sell the property
 22      to Spitalery, was that also a for-profit enterprise or did
 23      it have to do with dissatisfaction with the continued
 24      responsibilities of operating the facility?
 25      A     I believe it was for profit because we made a percentage


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   1     off of it.
   2     Q     Now, I want to take you to 2124 West Broadway.
   3     A     Okay.
   4     Q     Do you have that property in mind?
   5     A     Yes, sir.
   6     Q     Okay.   Do you know when that property was purchased?
   7     A     I don't know the exact date, but I know that while we
   8     were married it was purchased.
   9     Q     I'm going to tell you it was purchased in July of 2007.
 10      And why was this property purchased?
 11      A     I'm sorry, I just gave you some misinformation.                It was
 12      actually purchased in May of 2005.
 13      Q     Why was this property purchased?
 14      A     With the intent to rent it out to people and do some
 15      more housing sort of things.
 16      Q     You say "housing sort of things."           So let me --
 17      A     It was in West Central and --
 18      Q     Excuse me.   Let my finish my question.
 19      A     I'm sorry.
 20      Q     That's all right.    What do you mean by "housing sort of
 21      things"?
 22      A     Housing individuals.      The same -- you know, renting
 23      places to people.
 24      Q     And was this -- who purchased this property?
 25      A     The best of my recollection, I think it's Overcomer


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   1     Outreach, but I'm not one hundred percent sure.                 It was
   2     either us or it could have been God's Property too.                   I'm not
   3     sure.
   4     Q     So is the answer you don't know who bought this?
   5     A     The answer is I don't recall.
   6     Q     Okay.    And do you know what was paid for 2124 West
   7     Broadway?
   8     A     I don't know the exact amount.           I believe it was
   9     somewhere in the range of 40,000 to $60,000.
 10      Q     Okay.    And if I told you that the purchaser was James
 11      Kuntz, as his sole and separate property, that would, I
 12      guess, be different than your recollection?
 13      A     If that's what the documents say.
 14      Q     All right.    So you stand corrected if that's what the
 15      documents say?
 16      A     Yes, sir.
 17      Q     All right.    So as this property was purchased, then what
 18      purpose was it put to?
 19      A     We had a man and his family move in there, and he paid
 20      us rent.      They paid us rent.      And they fixed up the -- there
 21      was -- the agreement was they'd pay rent and fix up the
 22      property inside in the meantime also.
 23      Q     Okay.    And who was it rented to initially?
 24      A     Anthony Dunham, I believe is his name.
 25      Q     Okay.


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   1     A     And then he had somebody else there too, and some kids,
   2     and I can't recall the name of them.
   3     Q     So has this property essentially been a rental since it
   4     was acquired?
   5     A     I believe that's correct.
   6     Q     All right.   And does this property continue to be owned?
   7     A     No.
   8     Q     Okay.   Was this property sold?
   9     A     Yes, sir.
 10      Q     And when was it sold?
 11      A     I don't know the exact date, but I know it was while we
 12      were still married.
 13      Q     All right.   So if I told you it was sold in July of
 14      2007, does that sound about right?
 15      A     Yes, sir.
 16      Q     Do you know what it was sold for?
 17      A     I want to say 68,000, but I'm not sure if that's
 18      completely correct.
 19      Q     And were there any -- did you do any work on this
 20      property while it was owned?
 21      A     Very little, if any.      I may have removed trash and those
 22      sort of things.
 23      Q     Okay.   Let's move on to 605 East Bernard.            Do you have
 24      that property in mind?
 25      A     Yes, I do.


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   1     Q     Okay.   And do you know when this property was purchased?
   2     Excuse me, I said East Bernard.             South Bernard?
   3     A     (Nods head).
   4                      MR. SALINA:    Thank you, Jeff.
   5     Q     (By Mr. Salina)     Do you know when this property was
   6     purchased?
   7     A     I want to say 2006, but I'm not sure if that's
   8     completely accurate.
   9     Q     All right.     So it was purchased in June of 2005?
 10      A     Okay.
 11      Q     Do you know who the purchaser was?
 12      A     Me.
 13      Q     Okay.   And do you know what was paid for the property?
 14      A     The best of my knowledge, I believe it was somewhere
 15      between 225 to 250,000.
 16      Q     Okay.   And you are named as the purchaser on the
 17      property.     Why is that?
 18      A     Because I signed the documents.
 19      Q     Okay.   And Jeff was unavailable to sign the documents?
 20      A     No, sir.
 21      Q     Okay.   So why was the property purchased in your name as
 22      opposed to in you and Jeff's name?
 23      A     Because at that point everything's community property
 24      and so I signed the paperwork.            I was there with Wendy
 25      Hughes, and I did the paperwork.


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   1     Q     So when you say "at that point everything is community
   2     property," what do you mean by that?
   3     A     At that point I just -- I just felt like what we had was
   4     ours together.
   5     Q     Okay.   And that's how you felt, but that's not my
   6     question.     I wasn't asking you how you felt.             My question
   7     was why documents were drafted, if you know, listing you
   8     alone as the purchaser?
   9     A     Because I went to -- because I went to the place and
 10      signed the documents.
 11      Q     Okay.   Had Jeff and you had a conversation that -- to
 12      the effect that this was going to be your sole and separate
 13      property?
 14      A     No, sir.
 15      Q     All right.    Had Jeff and you had a conversation, you
 16      know, again, up through the date that this property was
 17      purchased in June of 2005, that he was giving this property
 18      to you or gifting this property to you?
 19      A     Not gifted, no.    Never.
 20      Q     All right.    So you viewed this acquisition as being the
 21      acquisition of a community estate, a community asset?                    Is
 22      that what you felt or believed at the time it was being
 23      acquired?
 24      A     I just believed it was ours.
 25      Q     All right.    And by "ours" do you mean -- this is your


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   1     term.    You used the term community property, and --
   2     A     Jeff and I's property.
   3     Q     I wasn't finished with my question.             Did you view it as
   4     community property, owned by you and Jeff?
   5     A     I view it as property owned by Jeff and I, yes, sir.
   6     Q     All right.   And ultimately this property was transferred
   7     to Overcomer Outreach; is that true?
   8     A     Yes, sir.
   9     Q     Okay.   And why is that?
 10      A     Because from what I remember from the situation is that
 11      the electricity bills were really really high, and
 12      personally we were paying those.           And I believe he decided
 13      to transfer it into that -- into Overcomer Outreach so that
 14      the non-profit would have to pay the electrical bills.
 15      Q     Okay.   When this property was purchased, was it a single
 16      family residence?
 17      A     I believe it was a like an adult family home or some
 18      sort of home that housed individuals, I believe.
 19      Q     All right.   And what was the purpose, as you understood
 20      it, for buying this property?
 21      A     Single moms' home, drug addict type of recovery home.
 22      Homeless.     Just kind of all -- just had visions of all that
 23      stuff.
 24      Q     And was it put to that use after it was acquired?
 25      A     Not very well, no.     John Hixson moved in and -- no, the


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   1     property wasn't managed well.
   2     Q     All right.     Was it ever utilized for the purposes for
   3     which it was purchased?
   4     A     No, sir.     I don't believe so.
   5     Q     All right.     So during the period of time that it was
   6     owned before it was sold, what enterprise, if any, was being
   7     conducted on that property?
   8     A     Enterprise as far as business?            Is that what you're
   9     asking me?
 10      Q     What was the property used for?
 11      A     Not really much.      John Hixson moved in there, and he
 12      moved some drug addicts in there, and it was another place
 13      that I think stuff was stolen and those sort of things that
 14      went on.
 15      Q     All right.    Was there any rental income from that
 16      property?
 17      A     I do not believe so because I believe -- no, I don't
 18      believe so.
 19      Q     Did --
 20      A     To the best of my knowledge.
 21      Q     Did you do any work on this property before it was sold?
 22      A     Maybe some fixing up.        Maybe some wallpaper, tearing
 23      down and those sort of things.            Interior stuff, but not --
 24      that's all I can recall, is potentially some of that stuff,
 25      taking out some garbage that was in there, those sort of


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   1     things.
   2     Q     Okay.   Was there any upgrades or improvements to this
   3     property of consequence while it was owned?
   4     A     I don't believe so.
   5     Q     Okay.   And then it was sold to McKamma Beach, LLC?
   6     A     Yes, sir.
   7     Q     In April of 2007?
   8     A     Yes, sir.
   9     Q     And what is McKamma Beach, LLC?
 10      A     It's an LLC that I think doctors or lawyers, something
 11      they formed together and they made up.
 12      Q     Okay.   And do you remember what it was sold for, this
 13      property?
 14      A     I want to say, if I remember correctly, 222,000.
 15      Q     $280,000.
 16      A     280,000.    I was going to give you a range.
 17      Q     And I cut you off, and I apologize.
 18      A     Didn't let me finish.
 19      Q     What was the disposition of those funds?
 20      A     Meaning where they came from?
 21      Q     Where did they go?
 22      A     Where did they go?      If I'm recalling correctly, they
 23      went into our joint account, and then we donated funds to
 24      All Nations Christian Center.
 25      Q     And did you consent to that gift to All Nations


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   1     Christian Center?
   2     A     Was I in agreement with it?
   3     Q     Yeah?
   4     A     Yes, sir.
   5     Q     All right.   Let's move on to 1504 West Mansfield.                Do
   6     you have that property in mind?
   7     A     Yes, sir.
   8     Q     And that's also referred to as 2009 North Walnut; is
   9     that correct?
 10      A     Yes, sir.
 11      Q     Okay.   And do you know when this property was purchased?
 12      A     I believe 2005 to 2006.
 13      Q     Okay.   And it was purchased in June of 2005.              Do you
 14      know what you paid for it?
 15      A     150,000, I believe.
 16      Q     Okay.   And do you know who the purchasers were?
 17      A     I believe God's Property & Development.
 18      Q     Okay.   And what was the purpose of purchasing this
 19      property?
 20      A     Rental.
 21      Q     And so this was a for-profit enterprise as opposed to an
 22      outreach for unwed mothers or convicts or something along
 23      that line?
 24      A     It was for profit, yes.
 25      Q     All right.   And was the property in fact rented?


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   1     A     Yes, sir.
   2     Q     Okay.     And do you recall who you rented it to?
   3     A     Multiple different people, but I know -- I can recall a
   4     few names.       Dina was one.     I don't recall the lady upstairs,
   5     her name, but she's lived in there -- she lived in there for
   6     awhile.       Nick Kessler.    Few different -- there's a few
   7     different people that transitioned in and out of there.
   8     Q     Is this property still owned?
   9     A     To the best of my knowledge, I believe it is, yes.
 10      Q     Okay.    And did you do any work on this property, Ms.
 11      Kuntz?
 12      A     Cleaning.    So if people were to vacate from the
 13      premises, yes, I cleaned out the apartments.                 I hauled
 14      garbage and trash.       We had a -- not only was it a duplex but
 15      there was a shop to it, so we hauled many thrift store items
 16      into there.
 17      Q     Anything else?
 18      A     Not that I recall right now, no.
 19      Q     Okay.    We'll go on.     Moving on to 902 West Maxwell, do
 20      you have that property in mind?
 21      A     I believe I do, yes.
 22      Q     And when was that property acquired?
 23      A     I would say 2006 some time.
 24      Q     Okay.    It was acquired in October of 2005.
 25      A     2005.


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   1     Q     Who was the buyer of that property?
   2     A     It's either personal, meaning Jeff and I, or Jeff,
   3     meaning -- or Overcomer Outreach.             I don't recall exactly
   4     who the buyers are.
   5     Q     Would you repeat your answer to me, please?
   6     A     I don't recall who the exact buyer is.
   7     Q     Okay.   So it was purchased by a James J. Kuntz, married
   8     man, dealing in his sole and separate property.
   9     A     Thank you.
 10      Q     All right.    And what did Mr. Kuntz pay for this
 11      property?
 12      A     I believe we paid 30 to 35,000.
 13      Q     And what was the purpose of acquiring 902 West Maxwell?
 14      A     It was a vacant lot, and we were going to put a triplex
 15      or duplex or something on -- on the property.
 16      Q     To use it as a rental?       In other words, you were going
 17      to build this property up and use that property as a rental?
 18      A     I'm thinking about the answer to that.
 19      Q     Okay.
 20      A     Thank you.    I think initially we talked about it being
 21      -- since the Lincoln house was right next to it, I believe
 22      we initially talked about, you know, renting it to single
 23      moms, those sort of things.
 24      Q     Okay.   That was never done?
 25      A     No, sir.


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   1     Q     It's still a vacant lot?
   2     A     Yes, sir.    To my knowledge of when he filed the divorce
   3     papers with me.
   4     Q     Has there been any investment in this property other
   5     than the cost of acquisition and taxes?
   6     A     I don't believe so.
   7     Q     All right.    Now, I notice, Ms. Kuntz -- take a little
   8     break from this litany here and ask you just a general
   9     overriding question.       During the marriage, as we've just
 10      identified, certain real estate investments were purchased
 11      where you were named as the titled owner.                We talked about
 12      that.
 13                     We just talked about one where Jeff was named as
 14      the titled owner, and there are others.                And there are
 15      certain assets that were acquired by LLCs.
 16                     Previously I believe your testimony was that in
 17      your view whatever was acquired during the marriage was
 18      community in nature.       Is that your testimony here today?
 19      A     Yes, sir.
 20      Q     All right.   So anything that was purchased after
 21      marriage would be an asset that was owned equally by you and
 22      Jeff?
 23      A     If you're just specifically talking about ac -- things
 24      acquired after we got married, yes, sir.
 25      Q     I am.   All right.    And would your answer be the same if


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   1     it was Jeff's money that he owned prior to the marriage that
   2     made that acquisition?
   3     A     Can you rephrase that question, please?
   4     Q     Yeah.   Let's assume hypothetically that Jeff had a
   5     hundred thousand dollars prior to marriage.
   6     A     Uh-huh.
   7     Q     And after marriage went out and he bought a house, and
   8     he used the hundred thousand dollars to buy that house.
   9     Okay?    And he put it in his name.           So he took his hundred
 10      thousand dollars that he had prior to marriage, he put it in
 11      his name after marriage.         In your view, would that be a
 12      community asset?
 13      A     Depending upon the transactions that took place.
 14      Q     Tell me what factors enter into that determination.
 15      A     If I can take you to one of our properties, Addison
 16      Court --
 17      Q     Just take me to that one I'm just talking about.
 18                      MR. HALL:   Well, let her answer the question.
 19      A     Yeah, I need to give you an example so I can demonstrate
 20      it.
 21      Q     (By Mr. Salina)    Let me rephrase the question.
 22      A     Can I answer your question first?
 23      Q     No, let's rephrase the question.            I'm going to ask you
 24      another question.
 25                      What would cause -- in that hypothetical I just


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   1     posed, what would cause that to be a community asset?
   2                   MR. HALL:     Well, now, she's not a lawyer.             She
   3     doesn't know what the law is.         So she can talk from her lay
   4     viewpoint --
   5                   MR. SALINA:     And she is.
   6                   MR. HALL:     -- as to what she thinks --
   7                   MR. SALINA:     I understand the rules, counsel,
   8     and I'll accept it from her lay viewpoint in getting to the
   9     intentions of the parties.
 10      Q     (By Mr. Salina)   So when Jeff took his hundred thousand
 11      dollars and bought this house and put it in his name, what
 12      facts or circumstances would cause that to be a community
 13      asset in your view?
 14                    MR. HALL:   Well, I object to the form of the
 15      question.
 16      A     I believe that the law says --
 17                    MR. HALL:   Just a second.         You haven't given her
 18      enough facts to form a conclusion --
 19      A     Yeah.
 20                    MR. HALL:   -- based upon your hypothetical.
 21                    MR. SALINA:    Thank you.
 22      Q     (By Mr. Salina)   Can you answer that question?
 23      A     I believe I need to give you an example.
 24      Q     Go ahead.
 25      A     There's different transactions depending upon what


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   1     transactions --
   2     Q     Go ahead.    Explain those to me.         If that's the only way
   3     we're going to get an answer, let's go ahead and listen to
   4     your scenario.
   5     A     Let's hear your question again.
   6     Q     Well, you were going to tell me depending upon the
   7     scenario.
   8     A     What's your question that you were asking me?
   9     Q     My question is if he took his separate property and
 10      bought a piece of property after the marriage and put it in
 11      his name, under what circumstances in your view would that
 12      be a community asset?
 13      A     I believe you'd have to go by what the law says.
 14      Q     Okay.   So you're relying upon what the law says?
 15      A     I believe that's a -- yes, that's accurate.
 16      Q     All right.   Even though it's your testimony that
 17      anything acquired after marriage is community property?
 18      A     And I believe I base that upon what I believe the law
 19      says.
 20      Q     Okay.   Thank you.    All right.        Let's move on then, Ms.
 21      Kuntz to 1910 West First.         Do you have that property in
 22      mind?
 23      A     Yes, sir.
 24      Q     And when was that property acquired?
 25      A     End of 2006 to 2007, I believe would be the -- to my


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   1     best of my knowledge would be the date.
   2     Q     All right.    So it was purchased in July of 2005?
   3     A     Right.
   4     Q     Who was the purchaser?
   5     A     I believe it was Jeff and I.
   6     Q     And what was paid?
   7     A     Or --
   8     Q     Sorry.
   9     A     Go ahead.    I believe it was Jeff and I.
 10      Q     You were about to say "or"?
 11      A     I believe it was Jeff and I.
 12      Q     What did you pay for this property, ma'am?
 13      A     I believe it was -- to the best of my knowledge, I
 14      believe I don't know the exact total, the exact amount that
 15      was paid.
 16      Q     Do you have an estimate?
 17      A     I would say 175 to 190,000.
 18      Q     And what was this property -- what was the purpose that
 19      you intended to put this property to?
 20      A     Originally Jeff and I were going to move into it with
 21      the kids.      It is a triplex, and we were going to change it
 22      back to a home.      But there was a big pedophile camp not too
 23      far down the street, so we didn't want to put the children
 24      at that location.
 25      Q     So when you say "move into it with the children," I


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   1     gather you're referring to his children?
   2     A     I don't have any children.         So, yes, sir.
   3     Q     And they were going to come and live with him?
   4     A     Courtney already lived with us, so we had her full time,
   5     and she's a teenager.       And then the kids visit us every
   6     other -- every Tuesday, every other Thursday and every other
   7     weekend.
   8     Q     Okay.   And so it was intended to move -- at this time
   9     we're in 2005.      Are we in Addison Court at this point?
 10      A     Are we living at Addison Court?
 11      Q     Yeah, that's what I'm asking you?
 12      A     Thank you for clarifying.         Yes, I believe we were.
 13      Q     So the intention was to move out of Addison Court into
 14      this property on West First?
 15      A     I believe so, sir, yes.
 16      Q     Okay.   And did you move into this property?
 17      A     No, sir.
 18      Q     Was the property then diverted to a different use?
 19      A     We kept it as a triplex and used it as a rental
 20      property.
 21      Q     All right.    And is that the use to which it's put at
 22      this time?
 23      A     At this time I'm not exactly sure what the use is.                  But
 24      when he gave me the divorce papers that was what the intent
 25      of it was at that time, yes.


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   1     Q     Okay.    And so was it rented from the time of acquisition
   2     in July of '05 up through the date that you and Mr. Kuntz
   3     separated?
   4     A     There was three different units, and I believe we were
   5     very successful in renting those out.
   6     Q     Did you do any work on this property?
   7     A     Maybe some yard work and minor things like that.                 Paint.
   8     We had a lady move in by the name of Lynette, and I believe
   9     I painted and did some of those things too, some painting
 10      and structural, those kind of things.              Aesthetic kind of
 11      things.
 12      Q     All right.   So what did you paint?
 13      A     Walls.
 14      Q     And how many walls did you paint?
 15      A     I don't recall how many walls.
 16      Q     And how many times did you paint?            What rooms did you
 17      paint?
 18      A     I don't recall the rooms, but --
 19      Q     Did you do it more than once?
 20      A     I don't believe so, no.
 21      Q     You used the word structural.           Did you do anything
 22      structurally on the property?
 23      A     I meant aesthetic.      I changed my word.         Thank you.
 24      Q     All right.   Let's go to 1801 West Mallon.             Do you have
 25      that property in mind?


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   1     A     Yes, sir.
   2     Q     And when was that property purchased?
   3     A     I believe somewhere around 2005.
   4     Q     And who purchased it?
   5     A     I don't recall that.
   6     Q     And why was it purchased?
   7     A     We were going to build a triplex, four-plex, some sort
   8     of housing.
   9     Q     And for what purpose?
 10      A     The thrift store was right there, so to house -- you
 11      know, to rent it out to more people.
 12      Q     Okay.   And was that ever done?
 13      A     No, sir.
 14      Q     Is this a vacant lot?
 15      A     I believe it still is, yes, to my knowledge.                The last
 16      time I drove by it.
 17      Q     Have there been any monies expended on this property
 18      other than taxes since acquisition?
 19      A     And I believe, and that might have been included in the
 20      price, that we had to pay for all the debris and that sort
 21      of thing to be removed from the fire.
 22      Q     And what did that cost?
 23      A     I don't know the exact total.
 24      Q     Have you done any work on this property?
 25      A     No, sir.    Yes, sir, I mowed it maybe a half a dozen


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   1     times, if that.
   2     Q     Okay.     Let's move on to the property, Ms. Kuntz, at
   3     8021-23 and 8025 East Sprague.            Do you have that property in
   4     mind?
   5     A     Yes, sir.
   6     Q     And when it was property acquired?
   7     A     In the 2006 to 2007 range.          2006, I believe.
   8     Q     Okay.     And who bought it?
   9     A     God's Property & Development.
 10      Q     And why was it purchased?
 11      A     Rental.    Investment.
 12      Q     Okay.   Describe this property to me.
 13      A     Restaurant, Mexican restaurant.            Actually, a restaurant
 14      which is occupied by a Mexican couple, and they run a
 15      restaurant out of it.        There's a house which is rented and
 16      then there's four one-bedroom apartments.
 17      Q     And what was paid for the property?
 18      A     A hundred and fifty thousand, I believe.
 19      Q     And has it been rented since it was acquired?
 20      A     Yes, sir.
 21      Q     And have you done any work on this property?
 22      A     Yes, sir.
 23      Q     What have you done?
 24      A     Removed trash.     I did some structural things on the
 25      inside of the property.


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   1     Q     Do you mean aesthetic things or structural?
   2     A     Collected rents.
   3     Q     By structural do you mean structural or aesthetic?
   4     A     Yeah, tearing walls down and stuff like that, yes, I
   5     did.
   6     Q     You tore some walls down?
   7     A     Some of those sort of things, yeah.             They were pretty
   8     dilapidated buildings, and we painted and other guys helped
   9     also.    But, yes, I did do some work on that property.
 10      Q     Estimate for me how much time in hours you expended in
 11      labor on this property on Sprague.
 12      A     I don't recall.
 13      Q     Would it be more than five hours?
 14      A     I don't recall.
 15      Q     More than ten?
 16      A     I don't recall.    It was --
 17      Q     You have no idea at all?
 18      A     I don't have any idea.      That was awhile ago.
 19      Q     Okay.   So did you spend more than one day there?
 20      A     I don't recall.
 21      Q     Okay.   Let me give you a couple of minutes here to think
 22      about that, because I want to make sure that I have your
 23      best effort here this afternoon.
 24                     So go back in time.        This was purchased, I think
 25      we established, in 2006.        That was your testimony earlier.


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   1     And the work that you did, try to help you here, did you do
   2     the work before you rented it out to the Mexican restaurant?
   3     A     There was a Mexican restaurant, there was, like I said,
   4     the apartments, and there was a house.                  And we did stuff in
   5     between people renting it out, before, after at the
   6     property.     I can't tell you exact hours that I spent at the
   7     property working on it.
   8     Q     And was the work done in the restaurant part of the
   9     property or in the rental part of the property or do you
 10      recall?
 11      A     The work would be in the -- the single apartments,
 12      single bedroom apartments.          And most of the work was in the
 13      house.
 14      Q     Okay.   So most of the work was in the house?
 15      A     Yes.
 16      Q     All right.   And was the house occupied at the time that
 17      the property was purchased?
 18      A     I believe so, yes.
 19      Q     All right.   So it would have been -- the work that you
 20      would have done would have been at some time after the
 21      initial tenant moved out?
 22      A     I believe so.
 23      Q     All right.   So does any of that help you reconstruct how
 24      much time you devoted to this property?
 25      A     I can't tell you an exact amount of time I spent.


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   1     Q     I'm not interested in exact.         I haven't asked for any
   2     exacts here.
   3     A     I don't recall.   Thank you.
   4     Q     So you have no recollection at all about how much time
   5     you invested in that property?          Is that your testimony?
   6     A     Yes, sir.
   7     Q     All right.   Thank you.     All right.          Let's move on to
   8     1804 West Broadway.     We talked about that already?
   9     A     Yes, sir.
 10      Q     Let's move on to 1817 West Gardner.             Do you have that
 11      property in mind?
 12      A     Yes, sir.
 13      Q     Okay.   And when was that property purchased?
 14      A     Either right before we got married or right after we got
 15      married.
 16      Q     Okay.   Who was it purchased by?
 17      A     I don't recall that.      I know at some point -- I don't
 18      recall that.
 19      Q     And what was paid for it?
 20      A     I don't recall the exact amount.
 21      Q     Okay.   And the property at 1824 West Gardner, when was
 22      that purchased?
 23      A     Either right before -- I believe it was right after we
 24      got married.
 25      Q     All right.   I stand corrected.         It's 1825 West Gardner?


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   1     A     Yes.
   2     Q     So that was purchased right after the marriage?
   3     A     Close, yes.
   4     Q     And who purchased that?
   5     A     I don't recall the exact -- either Overcomer Outreach or
   6     --
   7     Q     What was paid?
   8     A     -- us.
   9     Q     What was paid?
 10      A     I don't recall the exact amount.            Somewhere between
 11      68,000 and 70,000.
 12      Q     All right.    So let's make sure we're clear here.               So
 13      1817 West Gardner, let's go back to that one.                What was paid
 14      for that property, if you know?
 15      A     I don't recall.
 16      Q     And 1825 West Gardner you think was around 68,000, give
 17      or take?
 18      A     I don't recall the exact amount.
 19      Q     Okay.    What was the disposition of these properties?
 20      What happened to them?
 21      A     We used them initially for Overcomer Outreach events.
 22      We had a man -- we had people living in there that rented
 23      it.   So we collected rents from it, so an investment thing.
 24      And then we also did Overcomer Outreach events.                 We did
 25      Monday night dinners from the properties in the front yards.


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   1     Q     Okay.    And were they ultimately sold?
   2     A     Yes, sir.
   3     Q     When were they sold?
   4     A     I don't remember the exact date.
   5     Q     Do you recall how long?
   6     A     After we got married.
   7     Q     All right.    Do you recall how long after you were
   8     married?      One, two, three, four years?
   9     A     Maybe one, if that.      I don't recall the exact date.                 I'm
 10      sorry.
 11      Q     Okay.    Now, the properties that we've just discussed,
 12      Ms. Kuntz, I'll just kind of give you the addresses again
 13      here.    By "the properties we just discussed" I mean East
 14      3025 East 5th, 3026 East 5th, 2907 East Everett, 2124 West
 15      Broadway, 605 South Bernard, 1504 West Mansfield, 902 West
 16      Maxwell, 1910 West First, 1801 West Mallon, the Sprague
 17      property and the Gardner properties.              They were all
 18      purchased, maybe with exception or two on Gardner, after you
 19      and Jeff were married in April of 2004 and prior to November
 20      of 2005.      So they were all purchased within a fairly short
 21      period of time of about 19, 20 months.                 And in each instance
 22      it appears to me that cash was paid for these properties.
 23      Is that your recollection?
 24      A     Yes, sir.
 25      Q     All right.


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   1     A     Besides the ones we did a lease agreement, or, you know,
   2     the original Dairy Mart thing.            But that was still
   3     eventually cash was paid to purchased it, yes.
   4     Q     Okay.   There was no borrowing?           You and Jeff never went
   5     to the bank to borrow funds to make these acquisitions that
   6     I've just described?
   7     A     We never went to a bank, but we on a couple of them may
   8     have made agreements with the previous sellers and we, you
   9     know, paid lump sums.
 10      Q     On contracts?
 11      A     Yeah, if that's what your -- they're called.
 12      Q     All right.   And would you agree with me that between
 13      April of 2004 and June of 2005, when you sold your home, the
 14      only potential cash that you had to contribute towards these
 15      acquisitions may have been from the sale of your car, if it
 16      took place during that period of time?
 17      A     My card and what?      Can you rephrase that, please?
 18      Q     Between April of 2004 and June of 2005, the only
 19      separate property that you had that could have potentially
 20      been contributed to these acquisitions would have been from
 21      the sale of your car?
 22      A     Unless my private bank -- unless my personal bank
 23      account money again back at that same avenue that we're at
 24      was transferred into --
 25      Q     And you have no evidence of that?


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   1     A     Not on hand.
   2     Q     All right.   So would it not be fair to say that the
   3     money that was used to buy these properties, with the
   4     exception of potentially something from your car and
   5     potentially something from your bank account, came from
   6     money that Jeff had before marriage?
   7     A     Potentially, but maybe not all.
   8     Q     What other source would there be?             There would be your
   9     money that you had prior to marriage?
 10      A     Uh-huh.
 11      Q     There would be his money that he had prior to marriage.
 12      What would be the other potential sources?
 13      A     I'm not sure when that second set of money that we
 14      received when we were married came into effect.
 15      Q     All right.   That doesn't take place until December of
 16      2004, ma'am.
 17      A     Okay.   Thank you.
 18      Q     And so I'm talking about November 2004.
 19      A     Oh, I thought you said November 2005 until June.
 20      Q     No, I said November 2004.
 21      A     Okay.
 22      Q     You're right, I did say November 2005.
 23      A     You said June 2005.
 24      Q     I did, right.    But that second revenue source, that
 25      would have been from his personal injury proceeds anyway,


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   1     right?    The five million bucks?
   2     A     Yes, sir.
   3     Q     All right.
   4                    MR. SALINA:     All right.       Let's take a little
   5     break.
   6                        (Short recess taken.)
   7                    MR. SALINA:     All right.       Back on the record.
   8     A     Yes, sir.
   9     Q     (By Mr. Salina)     All right.       Back on the record, Ms.
 10      Kuntz.    At the time that you and Jeff were married, do you
 11      know whether or not he had already established a trust, a
 12      family trust?
 13      A     The Kuntz Family Trust?
 14      Q     Any trust?
 15      A     I don't believe so.
 16      Q     Okay.
 17      A     I believe that was -- I don't believe so.
 18      Q     All right.   So when Mr. Harper says in his report that
 19      the initial Kuntz Family Revocable Trust was established
 20      January 9th of 2004, that's incorrect?
 21      A     No, I'm incorrect.
 22      Q     You're incorrect?
 23      A     If that's what -- I don't have the documents in front of
 24      me, so I can't tell you the exact date.
 25      Q     Okay.   When did you first become aware that there was a


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   1     trust in effect, a Kuntz Family Trust in effect?                   When did
   2     you first learn of that?
   3     A     When we, him and I, went there and set it up.
   4     Q     All right.     But if that was --
   5     A     On the inception date, whenever it was originally.
   6     Q     If that was in fact prior to the marriage, then you went
   7     with Mr. Kuntz prior to your marriage to him to set up the
   8     trust?
   9     A     I was his caregiver at the time.             So yes.    That was --
 10      Q     All right.   So you do recall going to a lawyer's office
 11      and establishing a Kuntz Family Trust?
 12      A     Yes, sir.
 13      Q     Okay.   And does that refresh your recollection that that
 14      could have been on or about January of 2004, a couple of
 15      months before you and he were married, right?
 16      A     If that's the date, then yes.
 17      Q     Okay.   And where -- who was the lawyer who did that
 18      work?
 19      A     Brian Knopf.
 20                     REPORTER:     I'm sorry?
 21                     THE WITNESS:       Brian Knopf, K-N-O-P-F.
 22      Q     (By Mr. Salina)     Okay.     And did you know Mr. Knopf
 23      before accompanying Mr. Kuntz to his office?
 24      A     I don't recall that.
 25      Q     Okay.   Do you know whether or not Mr. Kuntz knew Mr.


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   1     Knopf prior to his preparing this trust in January of 2004?
   2     A     I don't recall that.
   3     Q     And do you know how it is that Mr. Kuntz found his way
   4     to Mr. Knopf's office?       How it is that he went in there to
   5     begin with?
   6     A     I don't recall.   Somebody may have referred us, but I
   7     don't recall.
   8     Q     All right.   Referred?
   9     A     Him to Brian Knopf's office.
 10      Q     All right.   So there may have been a referral from
 11      someone to Jeff to go get --
 12      A     I don't --
 13      Q     So if I were to tell you Mr. Brian Foland in fact
 14      referred Mr. Kuntz to Mr. Knopf, does that refresh your
 15      recollection?
 16      A     I remember that, yes.
 17      Q     Okay.   So your testimony is that you now recall that
 18      Brian Foland referred Jeff Kuntz to Mr. Knopf; is that
 19      right?
 20      A     Yes, sir.
 21      Q     All right.   And do you know why Mr. Foland referred Jeff
 22      to Mr. Knopf, for what purpose?
 23      A     I believe the initial meeting -- I don't know the exact
 24      details of that, no.
 25      Q     Okay.   And do you know what was finally signed by Jeff


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   1     in January of 2004?      What that document provides for?
   2     A     Can you rephrase that?       I don't understand.
   3     Q     Do you know what the document provides for?               What the
   4     trust document provides for that was signed by Jeff in
   5     January of '04?
   6     A     Meaning what was included in that document?
   7     Q     Yeah.
   8     A     His -- the home on Addison Court.
   9     Q     And do you know who the beneficiaries of the trust were?
 10      A     I believe at that point they were Jeff, and I believe
 11      his children, but I'm not 100 percent sure on that.
 12      Q     All right.    Now, you were engaged to Jeff at this time,
 13      were you not?      January of '04?
 14      A     I don't know the exact date when we got engaged.
 15      Q     All right.    But certainly a marriage was -- took place
 16      within about two months of this trust being executed by Mr.
 17      Kuntz, correct?
 18      A     I'm sorry?    Rephrase that.
 19      Q     The marriage took place within a couple of months of
 20      January of 2004, when he created this trust?
 21      A     Yes.
 22      Q     All right.    And you're telling me that you're not
 23      certain that you were engaged in January of '04, that this
 24      proposal where he asked you to marry him took place after
 25      January of 2004?


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   1     A     No, what I'm saying to you is I don't know if on January
   2     19th, when we went in to do the initial --
   3     Q     January 9th.
   4     A     9th, to do the -- I don't recall.
   5     Q     Ms. Kuntz, he gave you a ring some time after he
   6     proposed to you?
   7     A     I believe it was a couple of weeks after.               Or, I don't
   8     know the exact amount of time.
   9     Q     And when was that ring given to you in relationship to
 10      the wedding in March of 2004?
 11      A     Rephrase that.
 12      Q     When was that ring given to you prior to the wedding?
 13      Did you have the ring for more than a couple of months
 14      before you were married?
 15      A     I believe so.
 16      Q     So did you have the ring on your finger?
 17      A     I don't know the exact date.           I don't know the exact
 18      date when we went in there.           I can't recall the exact date
 19      and the exact --
 20      Q     I'm not asking you for the exact dates.              I've given you
 21      exact dates, January 9th, 2004.             I'm just asking you to
 22      assume that's the day the trust was executed, okay?
 23      A     (Nods head).
 24      Q     Now, my question is specifically, weren't you were
 25      engaged to be married to Jeff Kuntz at the time that that


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   1     trust was executed?
   2     A     And my answer is I don't recall.
   3     Q     All right.   At any rate, you're not a beneficiary of the
   4     initial trust, right?
   5     A     (Nods head).   Yes.     That's what the paperwork says, yes.
   6     Q     All right.   So did the trust get amended?
   7     A     What does that mean?
   8     Q     Did it get modified, changed?
   9     A     Yes, sir.
 10      Q     Okay.   Do you know when that was?
 11      A     I don't know the exact date.
 12      Q     Okay.   And what changed in the trust, if you understand
 13      that?
 14      A     I believe that he added me as beneficiary.
 15      Q     And do you know what the assets in the trust were at
 16      that time?
 17      A     The home on 18 -- 18016 North Addison Court.
 18      Q     Okay.   And did Mr. Knopf do that work?
 19      A     Yes, sir.
 20      Q     All right.   And did you have any conversations with Mr.
 21      Knopf about that document, the amended trust?
 22      A     I believe we did, yes.
 23      Q     Okay.   And do you remember how many meetings or
 24      conversations you had with Mr. Knopf?
 25      A     I don't remember the exact meetings.


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   1     Q     Okay.
   2     A     No, not the exact amount.
   3     Q     Do you recall anything about what was said?
   4     A     Yes, sir.
   5     Q     Okay.     What do you recall?
   6     A     I believe that he --
   7     Q     Who is "he"?     Mr. Knopf or Mr. Kuntz?
   8     A     I will finish.     I believe that Mr. Knopf had us set that
   9     up so that it would protect the house that we lived in if
 10      something happened to -- you know, if we -- at that time --
 11      at that same time we opened up -- I believe around those
 12      same times we opened up God's Property & Development, and it
 13      was explained to us that it would be a benefit to us, that
 14      then someone couldn't sue us for that personal property,
 15      couldn't sue us for that LLC, the whole amount in that LLC.
 16                      So he explained to us that it would be wise if
 17      we -- as we started to invest and buy properties, that we
 18      would put them in different LLCs so that we were protected
 19      so that they couldn't take everything from us.
 20      Q     All right.    What else did Mr. Knopf explain to you about
 21      the trust, modified trust in May of 2007?                Did he explain
 22      anything else to you?
 23      A     The modified trust in 2007?
 24      Q     Uh-huh?
 25      A     I believe that was modified by Steve Backman at that


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   1     point.    I think it was -- wasn't it modified as me as a
   2     beneficiary before 2007?
   3     Q     It's your testimony, ma'am.         Do you recall it that way?
   4     A     I believe -- yes, I believe that it was modified before
   5     2007.
   6     Q     Okay.   So if I tell you that the trust was drafted
   7     initially in January, as I said, of 2004, do you think that
   8     prior to May of 2007 the trust was amended?
   9     A     I don't recall.      I know there were several transactions
 10      on that Kuntz Family Trust originally --
 11      Q     I'm not asking you about several transactions.
 12      A     Can I finish, please?
 13      Q     No, because you're not answering my question.
 14                     MR. HALL:    Well, just a minute.         You asked her a
 15      question.     She's answering it.       You may not like the answer,
 16      but it's her answer.
 17                     MR. SALINA:    I don't care for the answer because
 18      it's not a responsive answer to my question.
 19                     MR. HALL:    Well, it was responsive.
 20                     MR. SALINA:    Well, let me start over then.
 21                     MR. HALL:    Well, I object to this, and I object
 22      to you cutting off her answer.
 23                     MR. SALINA:    Well, the reason I'm cutting off
 24      her answer is it's nonresponsive.
 25      Q     (By Mr. Salina)   Let's start over, Miss Kuntz.               The


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   1     original trust, I'm asking you to assume, was signed in
   2     January 2004.      Do you recall there being an amendment to
   3     that trust wherein you were listed as a beneficiary to the
   4     trust?
   5                    MR. HALL:     She's already answered that question.
   6                    MR. SALINA:      Thank you.
   7     Q     (By Mr. Salina)     Answer it again.
   8     A     As I said, prior.
   9     Q     Okay.   When did that take place?
 10      A     I don't know the exact date.
 11      Q     Who did that?
 12      A     If I had the documents in front of me -- I know that
 13      Steve Backman was involved in the Kuntz Family Trust at some
 14      point when we went to sell the property.                I know that Brian
 15      Knopf was involved in that also.             So I can't tell you the
 16      exact date, exactly what went on.              If I had the documents in
 17      front of you it would refresh my memory.
 18      Q     All right.   And when it was modified to place you as a
 19      beneficiary of the trust, do you recall the conversations
 20      with the lawyer, whoever that was, as to why that was being
 21      done?
 22      A     Yes.
 23      Q     And tell me why.
 24      A     Because if Jeff were to pass away, it would be
 25      protected.


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   1     Q     Okay.    And it would be protected from what?
   2     A     From -- it would be my asset.
   3     Q     Okay.    And you understood that that would be effective
   4     upon his death?
   5     A     I don't -- you know, I -- just like I said, the
   6     conversation that we had had multitudes of different things
   7     going on at the same time.         We talked about a will, we
   8     talked about God's Property & Development, I believe, in
   9     some of these conversations, you know, and starting that.
 10      We talked about the Kuntz Family Trust.                And all this in my
 11      understanding was to protect the assets that we had.
 12      Q     All right.    On Jeff's death?
 13      A     No.
 14      Q     What you just said --
 15      A     Even prior to Jeff's death.
 16      Q     I see.
 17      A     As I explained to you before, he had us put these in
 18      different LLCs, Kuntz Family Trust, to protect us from
 19      somebody suing and taking everything that we had.
 20      Q     Okay.    And this lawyer explained this to you in those
 21      terms?
 22      A     In the terms that he would describe it.              I don't know if
 23      exactly those words were used.
 24      Q     All right.
 25      A     I don't -- I can't recall the exact conversation that we


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   1     had back in -- you know, when we had the conversation.
   2     Q     All right.     Do you have any other recollection of the
   3     conversations at all surrounding this trust or the
   4     amendments to the trust?          Anything else being discussed with
   5     the lawyers?
   6     A     Sorry, I don't.
   7     Q     Okay.   So your recollection is that you met with Mr.
   8     Knopf about the trust, and you also met with Mr. Backman
   9     about the trust?
 10      A     There -- Mr. Backman, Steve Backman was later on down
 11      the road.
 12      Q     About the trust, however?
 13      A     About selling the property, and, yes, about the trust.
 14      Q     Did Mr. Backman, to the best of your recollection, do
 15      any work to modify the trust document?
 16      A     I believe Mr. Backman, yes, did.             But I'm not sure to
 17      the extent of what happened.
 18      Q     Fair enough.    Did Mr. Knopf also do work to modify the
 19      trust document?
 20      A     I believe so, but I don't recall exactly.
 21      Q     So is your recollection, as good or bad as it is, that
 22      the trust document was modified twice?
 23      A     I don't recall.     If I had the documents in front of me
 24      to refresh my memory, I could absolutely tell you what
 25      happened.     When I was out of the house I did not have


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   1     privilege to a lot of these documents and these sort of
   2     things.       They were left at the Pinnacle Lane house in --
   3     Q     I haven't asked you any question about --
   4     A     -- organized files with tabs.
   5     Q     Ma'am, this is nonresponsive.
   6                      MR. SALINA:    I'm going to move to strike.
   7     A     Thank you.
   8     Q     (By Mr. Salina)     Thank you.        All right.     Let's move on
   9     then to God's Property & Development, LLC.                Do you know when
 10      that LLC was formed, ma'am?
 11      A     I believe shortly after we got married.
 12      Q     Does October 2004 refresh your recollection?
 13      A     If that's what the papers say, then yes.
 14      Q     Okay.    And what did you and Mr. Kuntz discuss, if you
 15      did, relative to why this should be formed?
 16      A     For protection, like I talked about prior.
 17      Q     All right.    And by protection, describe for me again
 18      what you mean by that.
 19      A     Protection of the assets that him and I had.
 20      Q     And does that mean from liability from lawsuits,
 21      potentially?
 22      A     Yes.
 23      Q     Okay.    So it was intended to protect those assets that
 24      were owned personally?
 25      A     Yes, with the type of stuff that we did, it was Brian


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   1     Knopf's guidance to us that it -- we put them in separate
   2     things.       If something happened at one of our houses, you
   3     know, one of the jail birds or whatever went crazy and tried
   4     to sue against one of the houses, that not everything in
   5     that particular -- you know, they couldn't come after
   6     everything.
   7     Q     Did Mr. Knopf prepare the God's Property & Development,
   8     LLC operating agreement, the documents surrounding that?
   9     A     I believe so, sir.
 10      Q     All right.    And did you meet with Mr. Knopf relative to
 11      this LLC?
 12      A     Yes, sir.
 13      Q     And did Jeff?
 14      A     Yes, sir.
 15      Q     Did you have any meetings with Mr. Knopf yourself alone?
 16      A     I don't believe so, no.
 17      Q     And did Mr. Kuntz have any meetings with Mr. Knopf
 18      alone?
 19      A     Not to my knowledge.
 20      Q     Okay.    And the God's Property development, LLC lists you
 21      as a 50 percent unit member.           Did you know that at the time
 22      it was formed?
 23      A     Yes, sir.
 24      Q     And if the purpose of forming this LLC was to protect
 25      assets, why is it that you were named as a member?


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   1     A     I don't know the legality of all that.
   2     Q     Okay.   Did Jeff specifically tell you at any time, Miss
   3     Kuntz, that he intended to gift to you the assets being
   4     acquired by God's Property?
   5     A     Jeff and I had multiple conversations throughout our
   6     marriage that talked about us having community property.
   7     "It doesn't matter whose name's on what.              It's all community
   8     property anyways.     Don't worry about it.           It's okay."       Those
   9     kind of conversations.       Yes, we had multiple conversations
 10      that alluded to those facts.
 11      Q     All right.   I'm going to ask you to answer this next
 12      question yes or no.     Did Jeff ever tell you specifically
 13      that he intended to gift to you the properties that were
 14      being acquired by God's Property, LLC?
 15      A     What do you mean by gift?
 16      Q     Give it to you as a gift?        Did he ever use that term?
 17      A     He never said gift, but I guess it's all in the way you
 18      describe it.    Like I said, we had numerous conversations
 19      about the properties and the stuff that we had, and it was
 20      not a big deal, you know, that it was all community
 21      property, "Don't worry about it.           It's okay.      Everything's
 22      okay."
 23      Q     "Everything's okay"?
 24      A     Yeah.
 25      Q     So when he said, "It's all community property," in what


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   1     context?      Give me an example of when that phrase was used.
   2     A     When we'd talk about properties that we owned --
   3     Q     Okay.
   4     A     -- together.
   5     Q     Did you talk about it -- do you recall talking about any
   6     property specifically?
   7     A     All the properties.      We would have -- we'd have direct
   8     dialogue and conversation about every single property that
   9     we owned.      He would always come to me, "Let's pray about
 10      this.    What should we do in this?"           Every single piece of
 11      property, until it got to the end of where it was a little
 12      rocky in our marriage.
 13      Q     Okay.
 14      A     So --
 15      Q     So Jeff told you that every property that was acquired
 16      during the marriage was community property?
 17      A     I'm not saying every.       I'm not going to say every.
 18      Q     Okay.
 19      A     If we have to specifically go through each one -- I
 20      can't recall specific details of each home, but I'm telling
 21      you we had multiple conversations that alluded to that fact.
 22      Q     Can you -- if I were to tell you what properties were
 23      purchased during the marriage, can you tell me specifically
 24      as to whether or not as to that property Jeff told you that
 25      was a community asset, or was this more global, that


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   1     everything was community?
   2     A     Like I said, I can't recall.          We had many conversations.
   3     Q     I understand that.      That's not my question.           I wasn't
   4     asking you about how many conversations you had.
   5     A     Thank you.
   6     Q     You're welcome.    My question was, as to the specific
   7     properties that were acquired during the marriage, do you
   8     have a recollection as to any individual property Jeff
   9     saying to you that's a community asset?
 10      A     Pinnacle Lane -- we could probably go through the list,
 11      and if I could recall situations, --
 12      Q     Let's do it.   2209 North Walnut, did Jeff tell you that
 13      that was a community asset?
 14      A     I don't -- I don't recall.         I don't recall.        I don't
 15      recall specific incidents.
 16      Q     Is your answer you don't recall?
 17      A     Yes.
 18      Q     Thank you.
 19      A     I don't recall on any of them.           I don't recall.
 20      Q     Okay.
 21      A     We have had many conversations regarding properties.
 22      Q     Ma'am, that's not my question.           My question is, and I'll
 23      happily take you through these properties again, but I think
 24      you've just told me that as to any specific asset, any real
 25      estate asset that was acquired during the marriage, you have


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   1     no specific recollection of Jeff telling you that that was a
   2     community asset?
   3     A     There are multiple conversations that we had regarding
   4     properties that we had.      It was always stated to me --
   5     Q     I'm going to ask you again, ma'am, --
   6     A     Please let me finish.
   7     Q     Ma'am, you're not answering my question.            As to any
   8     specific asset -- let me take you through them.
   9     A     If I can finish?
 10      Q     2209 North Walnut --
 11      A     I may answer -- be able to answer your question if we go
 12      back and I can finish.
 13      Q     Mr. Hall can follow up with you.
 14                    MR. HALL:    No, but you've asked the question,
 15      and she's answering it.
 16                    MR. SALINA:    No, she's not.
 17                    MR. HALL:    Yes, she is.
 18      Q     (By Mr. Salina)    Well, the record will speak for itself,
 19      ma'am, and Mr. Hall can --
 20                    MR. HALL:    You're cutting her off.
 21      Q     (By Mr. Salina)    I'm going to go on to these assets one
 22      by one, Ms. Kuntz.
 23                    2209 North Walnut Street, did Jeff tell you that
 24      that was a community asset?
 25      A     I don't recall.


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   1     Q     15218 East Pinnacle Lane, did he tell you that was a
   2     community asset?
   3     A     I believe, yes.
   4     Q     Okay.   2907 East Everett, did he tell you that was a
   5     community asset?
   6     A     We had multiple conversations on --
   7     Q     That specific asset, ma'am, is what I'm asking you.
   8     That specific asset.      Not multiple conversations, that
   9     asset.
 10      A     Jeff and I had multiple conversations while Jeff and I
 11      was married in our marriage that brought about the fact --
 12      as we'd go to the places to sign for the paperwork and those
 13      sort of things that "Don't worry about it.              A lot of this --
 14      this stuff is community property.            Don't worry.      You don't
 15      have to worry about anything.          It's all the same," da da da
 16      da da.    We had multiple conversations like that.               That's
 17      what I'm telling you, and that's my answer.
 18                    MR. SALINA:     Move to strike.         Nonresponsive.
 19      Q     (By Mr. Salina)   As to 2907 East Everett, do you recall
 20      a specific conversation where Mr. Kuntz told you that was a
 21      community asset?
 22      A     We had multiple conversations, yes, sir.
 23      Q     About that asset?
 24      A     We had multiple conversations, yes, sir.             I don't know
 25      the specifics.


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   1     Q     Okay.   Did you have a specific conversation where Mr.
   2     Kuntz specifically said to you 2907 East Everett is a
   3     community asset?
   4     A     We had multiple conversations about all of our
   5     properties.     And so, yes, we had multiple conversations
   6     about every -- a lot of our properties.                Every time we'd
   7     purchase something he would come to me and talk to me about
   8     it, "Let's pray about it.         What do you think?"           Yes.
   9     Q     Ms. Kuntz, you're repeating yourself, but you're not
 10      answering my question.        Do you recall a conversation, I'm
 11      going to ask you one more time, specifically where Mr. Kuntz
 12      said that this property is a community asset?
 13      A     I don't recall.    Can I take a break, please?
 14      Q     Sure.
 15      A     Thank you.
 16                         (Short recess taken.)
 17                    MR. SALINA:      Let's go back on the record.
 18      Q     (By Mr. Salina)    Now, Mrs. Kuntz, it's three o'clock.
 19      Your lawyer needs to get back to Seattle and needs to be out
 20      of here by four.      I can walk you through each one of these
 21      personal property -- these real estate properties one by one
 22      and ask you the same question on each one.
 23                    Is your testimony, ma'am, that as to each of
 24      these real estate assets you don't have any recollection of
 25      Jeff telling you specifically as to that asset that it was a


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   1     community property asset, but, rather, you had these global
   2     conversations where they were all discussed as being
   3     community property?
   4     A     That would be correct.      Besides, we had multiple
   5     conversations with the Hayden TND that it was community
   6     property, the Hayden situation.           The Pinnacle house -- the
   7     Pinnacle house was told me that "I bought this for you.
   8     This is your house," those sort of things.
   9                   Hayden TND, we were together as a unit making
 10      decisions, and it was -- we were together doing this.                   At a
 11      lot of points during the whole thing Jeff had said, "I'm
 12      done.   I quit this thing."
 13                    So, yes, those two -- those are the two main
 14      properties that I can think of specific conversations that
 15      we had.   But overall it was just general conversations that
 16      we had about the properties that we had.
 17      Q     All right.   Now, in November of 2004, about seven months
 18      after you and Jeff married, Jeff was paid the balance of the
 19      settlement that was due to him.           Do you have a general
 20      recollection of that?
 21      A     Yes, sir.
 22      Q     And let me -- those funds, Ms. Kuntz, were about
 23      $5,625,000.    Does that sound about right?
 24      A     Yes, sir.
 25      Q     And those funds were deposited where?


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   1     A     I believe joint bank account and potentially some in the
   2     Church Development Fund.
   3     Q     Okay.
   4     A     But I don't remember specifically, but I believe
   5     originally, yes, it was in our joint accounts.
   6     Q     All right.   In fact, if I were to tell you that they
   7     were deposited to the CDF account number 2070, does that
   8     refresh your recollection?
   9     A     I don't have that document right in front of me, but if
 10      I saw it, it does.
 11      Q     Now, did Jeff ever tell you that this $5,625,514.60
 12      which resulted from a jury verdict and permanently disabling
 13      injuries to him, that he intended to treat that as community
 14      property?
 15      A     In conversations that we had, general conversations that
 16      we had, yes, it was -- it was told to me not to worry about
 17      things, it's all community property.             Those were the
 18      conversations that we had.        We had specifics with the Hayden
 19      TND, Hayden development, and we had specific conversations
 20      with the Pinnacle Lane, yes.
 21      Q     Okay.   And, again, I'll note an objection to your
 22      answer.
 23                     My question was specifically as to this 5.6
 24      million dollars, not as to Hayden TND, not as to Pinnacle,
 25      okay?    The 5.6 million dollars, did Jeff tell you that that


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   1     was community property?
   2     A     I don't recall.
   3     Q     Okay.   Did you feel it was community property?
   4     A     Yes.
   5     Q     Okay.   Why did you feel it was community property?
   6     A     Because we had conversations in our understanding, like
   7     I said before, that everything when you -- when you're
   8     married, everything is community property.              Jeff had a
   9     conversation with his personal injury attorney prior to us
 10      being married, and he -- he asked him to do a prenuptial
 11      agreement.     And Jeff said, "No, I trust who I'm going to be
 12      married to.     I don't need to do a prenuptial agreement."
 13      Probably three conversations he had with Dan Keefe regarding
 14      that.
 15      Q     Okay.   So based upon your conversations with Jeff, you
 16      believed that he believed that this 5.625 was community
 17      property, right?
 18      A     Yes, sir.
 19      Q     And that technically then you owned half of it at the
 20      time it was received in November of 2004; is that right?
 21      A     I believe we just owned all of it.
 22      Q     All right.   Equally?
 23      A     Yeah, we just --
 24      Q     Okay.   Now, if I'm correct, ma'am, that they were
 25      deposited at CDF.     Do you know what CDF is?


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   1     A     Church Development Fund.
   2     Q     Okay.   And what is the Church Development Fund?
   3     A     It is a -- to my knowledge, it is a -- a place that you
   4     loan money to, and they purchase churches.                 And then those
   5     churches pay payments to the person who loaned the money --
   6     Q     Okay.
   7     A     -- at an interest rate.
   8     Q     Okay.
   9     A     It's an investment.
 10      Q     And why were the funds deposited at CDF, if you know?
 11      A     I believe because the interest rate was a good interest
 12      rate.    So I believe we got a good interest rate there.
 13      Q     Okay.   And were you ever on the CDF account?                Were you
 14      ever named as an account holder there?
 15      A     What is -- can you rephrase your question?                Was my name
 16      on the documents?
 17      Q     Was it on the account?
 18      A     I did a lot of -- I did a lot of the signings and those
 19      sort of things.     So, yes, I believed it was, yes.
 20      Q     Okay.   You believe your name was on the CDF account?
 21      A     To my knowledge I believe it was.             I --
 22      Q     Okay.   And do you know how it is that the decision was
 23      made to deposit the funds at CDF?              Were you involved in that
 24      decision?
 25      A     I believe so.


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   1     Q     Okay.    And how is it that you learned of CDF then?                Was
   2     that something you investigated or Jeff investigated?
   3     A     We had conversations with Dave Sims.
   4     Q     So was Mr. Dave Sims a gentleman that encouraged these
   5     funds to be deposited at CDF?
   6     A     He is the one who showed the option to Jeff and I.
   7     Q     Okay.    Now, once the funds were deposited at CDF, did
   8     you and/or Jeff have the capacity to write checks against
   9     that account?      How was money withdrawn from CDF?
 10      A     Jeff and I had to -- we never had checking or never had
 11      checks or those sort of things.            We had to type something up
 12      with our signatures on it saying "This is," you know, "the
 13      transactions that we want removed."
 14      Q     So there had to be communication with the custodian of
 15      the fund, CDF, to transfer funds; is that correct?
 16      A     I believe so, yes.
 17      Q     Unlike a checking account or a savings account where you
 18      could write a negotiable document, a check, you simply
 19      communicated with CDF and told them where to move the money?
 20      A     We had no checks.     So yes.
 21      Q     So the answer to my question is yes?
 22      A     Yes.    Communicated, yes.
 23      Q     Okay.    And did you ever initiate any calls to transfer
 24      funds from this account without talking with Jeff Kuntz?                     In
 25      other words, were monies ever transferred out of the CDF


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   1     account without Jeff's prior knowledge and consent?
   2     A     No, sir.     I don't believe so.
   3     Q     And other than the $5,625,000 that was deposited to this
   4     account, Miss Kuntz, were there any other deposits to this
   5     account from you or Mr. Kuntz?
   6     A     I believe so, to the best of my knowledge.                I believe we
   7     had some other investments prior or after.                I'm not sure.          I
   8     don't recall that question.           I don't recall.
   9     Q     So is the answer you don't know?
 10      A     Yeah, I don't know specifics.
 11      Q     Okay.   Do you know whether any of the proceeds from the
 12      sale of any real estate transactions were deposited to this
 13      account?
 14      A     Deposits of real estate?         Like our personal real estate
 15      and those sort of things?          Or are you talking about the
 16      loans that we had through Church Development Fund and they
 17      deposited directly into our accounts the interest income?
 18      Q     I'm not talking about transfers within Church
 19      Development Fund.      I'm talking about new money from you
 20      and/or Jeff from any of your other personal holdings?                     Were
 21      any of those funds deposited into the Church Development
 22      Fund other than this one initial deposit?
 23      A     I don't recall.
 24      Q     All right.    And did your $19,000 from Forest Boulevard
 25      ever get deposited into this account?


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   1     A     I don't recall where -- what account that went to.
   2     Q     Did the proceeds from the sale of your car go to this
   3     account?
   4     A     I don't recall where those proceeds went.
   5     Q     Did the proceeds from your bank account that you had at
   6     the time that you married Mr. --
   7     A     I don't recall.
   8     Q     Let me finish my question.        Did the proceeds in your
   9     bank account at the time you married Mr. Kuntz go into this
 10      account?
 11      A     I don't recall, sir.
 12      Q     Now, in December 2004, about a month after Jeff received
 13      the 5.625 -- and his name was on the check, wasn't it?                   It
 14      wasn't payable to you, was it?
 15      A     It was a wire --
 16      Q     Okay.
 17      A     -- into our joint bank accounts, I believe.
 18      Q     Well, you think the account at CDF was joint, correct?
 19      That's your testimony?
 20      A     I believe.
 21      Q     All right.   It wasn't, but that's all right.
 22      A     Thank you.
 23      Q     When the investment was made at Hayden TND, tell me how
 24      it is that the decision was made to invest in Hayden TND?
 25      A     Jeff and I met with Glen Lanker at a restaurant out in


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   1     the Valley.       His kids were also present.           And Glen Lanker
   2     discussed the situation and told us all about the
   3     opportunity.       And we left that restaurant, and Jeff and I
   4     said, "We will pray about it together, and we will call you
   5     and let you know what our decision is."
   6     Q      Okay.   And how is it that you were put in touch with Mr.
   7     Lanker?
   8     A      I believe we knew him through -- I don't recall the
   9     specific details on that.
 10      Q     Okay.    Was it through a church association, if you know?
 11      A     I don't recall the specific details.
 12      Q     Okay.    At any rate, you find your way to a meal with Mr.
 13      Lanker, and Mr. Lanker is one of the project developers of
 14      this Hayden TND.      Did you understand that at the time?
 15      A     Yes, sir.
 16      Q     And Mr. Lanker apparently was aware that there was money
 17      available to be invested.          Do you know how he became aware
 18      of that?
 19      A     I don't recall.
 20      Q     Okay.    And at the time that the investment was made, Ms.
 21      Kuntz, were you there when what I'll call then the closing
 22      document were signed associated with this transaction?
 23      A     What transaction?
 24      Q     The transaction where the funds were loaned to Hayden
 25      TND?


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   1     A     Can you rephrase that question?           Because there was many
   2     different documents that we had that --
   3     Q     Let me hand you the promissory note, Ms. Kuntz, dated
   4     December 21st, 2004.       Were you present when that note was
   5     signed?
   6     A     I don't recall specifically.
   7     Q     Okay.   When do you first recall seeing that?
   8     A     I can't say.   I don't recall.
   9     Q     Okay.   So you have no idea when you first saw this note?
 10      A     I can't recall that -- the specifics on it, no.
 11      Q     Okay.   The note has the money being payable to Jeff
 12      Kuntz?    Do you see that?       Is that what the note says?              I'm
 13      handing it to you.      Can you read that for me?
 14      A     Yes.
 15      Q     Does it say "Payable to Jeff Kuntz"?
 16      A     This particular document says that, yes.
 17      Q     All right.   And you can't tell me, I guess, whether you
 18      were aware of how that note was drafted when this money was
 19      lent because you don't know when you first saw the note,
 20      right?
 21      A     I know that I was in multiple -- almost all of the --
 22      Q     That's not what I asked you, ma'am.
 23      A     Can I finish my question -- my answer, please?
 24      Q     No, because you are not answering my question.                 My
 25      question is, you don't remember when you first saw this


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   1     note?    That's my question.
   2                     MR. HALL:   That's not a question.
   3     Q     (By Mr. Salina)    Do you recall when you first saw this
   4     note?
   5     A     Yeah.    You're saying --
   6     Q     Do you recall when you first saw the note?
   7     A     As I said prior, there was many notes that we had and
   8     many conversations that we had, many documentations, and I
   9     was in most of the meetings.          But, no, I can't recall
 10      specifically.      I know I was in a -- most of the meetings
 11      where this information and this stuff was being dealt with.
 12      Q     Okay.    But I gather from your testimony, it wouldn't
 13      matter to you, based upon your understanding, as to whether
 14      you were on the note because, according to your testimony,
 15      Jeff had told you that this money was all community, and if
 16      he lent it the money due back would also all be community,
 17      correct?      That's your --
 18      A     We had general conversations, yes, talking about the
 19      assets, the different properties that we'd purchased, and
 20      had conversations not to worry about things, yes.
 21      Q     Okay.
 22      A     It was all community property.           "Don't worry."
 23      Q     Do you know whether or not you were listed as a member
 24      in the Hayden TND membership and the LLC?
 25      A     I don't recall that.


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   1     Q     Okay.     Do you know whether or not you were listed as a
   2     member in the First Amended Operating Agreement?
   3     A     It's been awhile since I've gone through any of those
   4     documents, and I have none of it.              I had none of it that
   5     I've been able to look at and sit here and recall.                    Because
   6     it was all left --
   7     Q     Here's the First Amended Operating Agreement, Miss
   8     Kuntz.       Do you see where it lists James J. Kuntz as a 70
   9     percent owner?
 10      A     Uh-huh.
 11      Q     Do you see yourself being listed as an owner?
 12      A     Not in this particular document.
 13      Q     All right.    Here's the Second Amended Operating
 14      Agreement.      Lists Jeff Kuntz as a 30 percent owner.                Do you
 15      see that?
 16      A     Uh-huh.
 17      Q     Are you listed as an owner?
 18      A     Not in this particular document, no.
 19      Q     But, again, it wouldn't matter to you because it was all
 20      community property anyway; is that correct?
 21      A     That was the general consensus of, yes, our
 22      conversations that we had.
 23      Q     All right.
 24      A     Yes.
 25      Q     So if I got it right, let's assume just hypothetically


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   1     that you were there when this note was signed, and let's
   2     assume hypothetically that you saw Jeff's name was in the
   3     note, and your name wasn't, it wouldn't bother you, you
   4     wouldn't be concerned because it didn't matter, your
   5     understanding was it was all community property?
   6     A     Because -- yes, sir, because we had multiple
   7     conversations to allude me to the fact that everything was
   8     -- "It's okay.     Don't worry about it.          It's okay."
   9     Q     I guess --
 10                    MR. HALL:    Can I see the amendments just for a
 11      moment?
 12                    MR. SALINA:     The what?
 13                    MR. HALL:    The amendments just for a moment?
 14                    MR. SALINA:     The amendments?         Sure.
 15                    MR. HALL:    Thanks.
 16      Q     (By Mr. Salina)   And it wouldn't matter whether you were
 17      in the operating agreement as it was originally drafted
 18      because, again, your understanding was, based upon these
 19      numerous conversations that you continue to describe, it was
 20      all community property, that was what had been represented
 21      to you by Mr. Kuntz?
 22      A     We had general conversations talking about --
 23      Q     And did Jeff use the term community property?
 24      A     As a matter of fact, yes, we had a couple of
 25      conversations stating it doesn't matter who signs the


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   1     documents, it's all community property anyways.
   2     Q     All right.     And specifically he used that term community
   3     property?
   4     A     Yes.
   5     Q     Okay.   At the time that this note was drafted and these
   6     funds were loaned, did Mr. Kuntz have a lawyer?
   7     A     The first -- we had a lawyer.            We had -- we retained
   8     Steve Backman for this.         So, yes, Jeff and I were
   9     represented.     But I'm not certain when we did the very first
 10      transaction -- yes, Steve Backman was there.
 11      Q     I don't know what you mean by "the very first
 12      transaction."      What was the very first --
 13      A     There was --
 14      Q     Let me finish my question.            was the very first
 15      transaction that you're describing?
 16      A     I'm talking about the money -- the exchange of monies.
 17      So --
 18      Q     Are you talking about the loan of the 4.9 million
 19      dollars?
 20      A     We -- the loan for 4.99 was left in our bank account,
 21      and it was -- we were allowed to have that in the Church
 22      Development Fund joint checking account.                We did not give
 23      them 4.977 when we signed this.             We gave them lump sums when
 24      they required it and when they needed it and when they
 25      requested it.


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   1     Q     Who drafted the promissory note?
   2     A     I can't recall.
   3     Q     Who drafted the operating agreement?
   4     A     I don't recall.
   5     Q     Who drafted the First Amendment and Second Amendment to
   6     the Operating Agreement?
   7     A     I don't recall.
   8     Q     All right.   At the time that this note was being
   9     negotiated and discussed, were you and Jeff represented by
 10      an attorney?
 11      A     When we initially talked to Glen Lanker at the
 12      restaurant we did not have an attorney representing us.
 13      Q     Okay.
 14      A     So when an initial discussion started to happen, no, we
 15      did not have an attorney representing us.
 16                     MR. SALINA:    Move to strike as not responsive.
 17      Q     (By Mr. Salina)   Ma'am, listen to my question.               The
 18      question was specifically at the time that this note was
 19      being negotiated, did you or Mr. Kuntz have a lawyer?
 20      A     I don't recall.
 21      Q     Okay.   And at the time that these First and Second
 22      Amendments to the Operating Agreement were being signed and
 23      circulated, did you have an attorney?             And this is in
 24      December of '06 and February of '07.
 25      A     If I can see the date we retained our attorney, then I


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   1     could refresh my memory and I would know.              But I can't
   2     answer that.
   3     Q     All right.   Did you at some time during the process of
   4     investing in Hayden TND have representation through a
   5     lawyer?
   6     A     Yes, sir.
   7     Q     And was that Mr. Backman?
   8     A     Yes, sir.
   9     Q     All right.   Did you have anyone other than Mr. Backman?
 10      A     Us personally, no.     But we had a -- through the LLC we
 11      had to retain a lawyer because we were being sued by people.
 12      And so we corporately had an attorney that was downtown, and
 13      I can't recall what his name is right now.
 14      Q     Tim Giesa?   Sound familiar?        Tim Giesa?     John Giesa?
 15      A     I don't recall that name.
 16      Q     That doesn't refresh your recollection?            All right.        In
 17      your conversations with Mr. Backman, Miss Kuntz, in which
 18      both you and Jeff were present, did you ever talk with him
 19      about who owned this investment with Hayden TND?
 20      A     Yes.
 21      Q     Okay.   Tell me what was said.
 22      A     We had multiple conversations.          We had conversations
 23      that said that Jeff and I owned the TND.              Or, the -- not
 24      necessarily owned it.      Were involved in the project together
 25      and were investors in the project together.


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   1     Q     Okay.   Did Mr. Backman ever tell you that you had an
   2     ownership interest in the Hayden TND investment?
   3     A     What does ownership interest mean?
   4     Q     That you had some right to the investment?              That you had
   5     an expectation, a legal expectation that you were
   6     participating?
   7     A     I believe we have documentation that, yes, does say
   8     that.
   9     Q     No, no, I'm not asking about documentation, ma'am.
 10      A     Yes.
 11      Q     Listen to my question.
 12      A     Can I finish mine first?       You interrupted mine.
 13      Q     You're not answering my question.
 14      A     I'm trying to get to it, --
 15      Q     All right.
 16      A     -- but you interrupt me before I can get there.
 17      Q     That's not true.    My question is whether Mr. Backman
 18      ever told you that you had an ownership interest in this
 19      investment?
 20      A     I believe all the discussions that we had would allude
 21      to that, yes.
 22      Q     Tell me what he said specifically that would allude to
 23      that?
 24      A     All the conversations that we had with him that he was
 25      -- we were his clients, both of us were his clients, both of


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   1     us were the investors.         It was both of us.          It was -- he had
   2     conversations with us.         We -- I had to sign all the
   3     documents.     Most of the documents.           I had to sign.
   4                    So we had -- I can't remember specific
   5     conversations, but we had many conversations that we talked
   6     specifically about our ownership, our interest in the
   7     project.
   8     Q     All right.    At any rate, you took away from these
   9     conversations the understanding that Mr. Backman was telling
 10      you that you owned an interest in this investment?                     Is that
 11      your testimony?
 12      A     I believe so.
 13      Q     All right.    Now, after this loan was made, Ms. Kuntz, a
 14      period of approximately a couple of years lapsed pursuant to
 15      the terms of the borrowing of the note.                 The money came due.
 16      And did it come to pass in December of 2006, approximately,
 17      that the money hadn't been paid and there was some concerns
 18      about whether in fact it would be paid?
 19      A     Yes, sir.
 20      Q     All right.    And was there a reconnection made with Mr.
 21      Backman at that time to assist in attempting to collect
 22      these funds?
 23      A     He always assisted us, so I don't think there was a
 24      reconnection.      He just always was walking us through the
 25      process, --


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   1     Q     Okay.
   2     A     -- I think.    So we were always in conversation with him.
   3     Q     All right.    At any rate, whatever the timing was, did
   4     Mr. Backman do the work for or on behalf of you and/or Mr.
   5     Kuntz to reorganize this process and get these funds paid?
   6     Did you have anybody other than Mr. Backman working for you
   7     in that regard?
   8     A     Other than the other attorney that we had when they were
   9     going to sue us because some of the partners said they
 10      weren't going to settle with American Land Fund and those
 11      sort of things.     So we had representation through Steve
 12      Backman and we also had, at the end, an attorney that
 13      represented us, I think, corporately kind of as Hayden.
 14      Q     And what do you understand, Ms. Kuntz, was done --
 15      what's your understanding of what was done in order to
 16      facilitate getting the money that was owed paid?
 17      A     We went in to Steve Backman's office and had
 18      conversations to the fact that we were potentially going to
 19      have to foreclose on the properties.              That option we decided
 20      not to do.    We -- American Land Fund -- actually, we had to
 21      take out another loan through Bank of Coeur d'Alene because
 22      a bunch of deadlines were coming up.              And so the properties
 23      were transferred into Jeff and I's name for -- so that we
 24      would have, you know, something to sell, an asset to sell if
 25      this whole thing went awry.


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   1                   And we took out a bank loan to purchase another
   2     piece of property that was crucial in order for this whole
   3     project to go through because it was where the water and
   4     that sort of thing had to be carried through.
   5     Q     Okay.
   6     A     I believe -- were you going to say something?
   7     Q     Were you finished with your answer?
   8     A     I believe we -- there was conversations that we had to
   9     reinvest some money in order for the American Land Fund to
 10      purchase the -- like, we were five percent partnership, and
 11      American Land Fund was 95 percent, so we had to reinvest
 12      some money in order for this whole deal to go through.
 13      Q     All right.   Have you finished your answer?
 14      A     Can you ask me the question again to make sure I clearly
 15      covered everything?
 16      Q     Well, my question was, what do you understand was
 17      necessary and what was undertaken to facilitate getting
 18      these funds paid?
 19                    MR. HALL:    You mean the loan funds?
 20                    MR. SALINA:     The funds that were due under the
 21      note.
 22                    MR. HALL:    Yeah, I think he's saying what did
 23      you do to get the note -- that money paid?
 24                    MR. SALINA:     That's exactly what I just said.
 25      A     Yeah, and I'm thinking about it to make sure I didn't


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   1     miss any steps.
   2     Q     (By Mr. Salina)   Sure.
   3     A     We had to go through multiple steps.
   4     Q     All right.   Anything you want to add to your answer?
   5     A     There may be more, but that's all I can remember at this
   6     time.
   7     Q     Okay.   Now, I think you have testified, Ms. Kuntz, that
   8     there may have been some additional monies that were
   9     contributed to this project other than the monies that were
 10      loaned under the original note in December of '04?                  Did you
 11      say that?
 12      A     Can you rephrase your question?          I don't understand what
 13      you're asking.
 14      Q     I think you said that during this process that Mr.
 15      Backman helped you with in December of '06, that as part of
 16      that process some additional money was loaned to the project
 17      by you and Mr. Kuntz?
 18      A     We had to take out a -- yes, we had to take out a loan
 19      at the Bank of Coeur d'Alene --
 20      Q     I understand that.
 21      A     -- to purchase the piece of property.
 22      Q     And that was money that was borrowed from the Bank of
 23      Coeur d'Alene?
 24      A     I believe that's the case, yes.          That's my
 25      understanding.


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   1     Q     Other than money that was -- are you finished?
   2     A     (Nods head).
   3     Q     Other than money that was borrowed from the Bank of
   4     Coeur d'Alene, was there any other new money contributed as
   5     part of this workout agreement?
   6     A     I don't recall anything.        I know that in the workout
   7     agreement we had to invest -- reinvest money back into the
   8     project in order for American Land Fund to purchase the
   9     property from us.
 10      Q     And was that from the Bank of Coeur d'Alene that those
 11      funds were found?
 12      A     I don't recall.
 13      Q     All right.   Now, did you and Jeff meet with the bankers
 14      at the Bank of Coeur d'Alene?
 15      A     Yes, sir.
 16      Q     All right.   And both of you signed the loan documents
 17      and the documents that were required for the lending?
 18      A     I believe that's the case, sir.
 19      Q     All right.   And you were placed on many of those
 20      documents in name?
 21      A     I believe that's the case, yes.
 22      Q     And the bank insisted that that occur because you were
 23      married to Jeff?
 24      A     I don't recall that specific thing being said, but --
 25      Q     All right.   Did Jeff tell you specifically that with


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   1     regards to the Hayden TND investment that it was his
   2     intention that this investment and what was recouped from
   3     the investment was a community asset?
   4     A     Going back to our conversations that we've had multiple
   5     times, Jeff and I had many conversations regarding assets
   6     that we had and properties that we had, and it was general
   7     conversations.     We had multiple conversations of "We'll pray
   8     about it.    What should we do in this situation?"               You know,
   9     "We're together in this," those sort of things, yes.
 10      Q     Ma'am, you also told me specifically, if I can recall
 11      your recollection, that other than those broad conversations
 12      that specifically you told me as to Pinnacle and as to
 13      Hayden Jeff specifically, by reference to that investment,
 14      told you it was a community asset.            Do you recall your
 15      testimony in that regard?
 16      A     I believe I said we had some conversations with
 17      particular properties.
 18      Q     You said Pinnacle and Hayden TND, I think.
 19      A     But I don't think -- I don't know that I used those
 20      exact words that you just stated.
 21      Q     All right.   Fair enough.      The record will speak for
 22      itself.
 23                    Did Jeff tell you specifically with regards to
 24      Hayden TND, that specific asset -- and I don't want to
 25      quarrel with you or get into that loop that we got into


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   1     before, and I have in mind your continuous testimony about
   2     general conversations.        But I want you to answer me
   3     specifically as to Hayden TND, did Jeff ever tell you that
   4     that was a community asset?
   5     A     Yes, I believe so.
   6     Q     And when?
   7     A     I don't remember the exact date.           We had multiple
   8     conversations.     This obviously was a three --
   9     Q     So did he tell you multiple --
 10      A     Can I finish my --
 11      Q     Ma'am, you're not answering my question.
 12      A     I can finish my statement though, please.
 13      Q     Go ahead.   Go ahead.     It's nonresponsive.
 14      A     We had multiple conversations throughout the three-year
 15      ordeal that talked about this particular Hayden TND project,
 16      that talked about community property and "What should we do
 17      in this?" conversations.
 18      Q     Okay.   Did you invest any money into the Hayden TND?
 19      A     Jeff and I invested money in the Hayden TND, yes.
 20      Q     And that's the money he got from his personal injury?
 21      A     Unless like -- unless --
 22      Q     Something from the car, something from the bank account,
 23      something from the house?
 24      A     The way we invested the money, potentially could have
 25      been.    Because it came out of our -- the 4.997, whatever the


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   1     amount of money was, was not given to them at the same date.
   2     There was money pulled out of our accounts throughout the
   3     whole two-and-a-half, three-year process.              Yes, there was.
   4     Q     It was pulled out of the Church Development Fund
   5     account.
   6     A     From joint accounts, from our -- some of it came from
   7     joint, so you'd have to transfer -- there was different --
   8     different assets that happened.           But it was not all put --
   9     Q     Okay.
 10                     MR. HALL:   Finish your sentence.
 11      A     Actually, potentially it could have all been in the
 12      Church Development Fund.
 13      Q     (By Mr. Salina)   Do you know, ma'am?
 14      A     What I'm saying to you is that -- what I'm trying to say
 15      to you is that we had 4.99.         It was not just given to them
 16      right away.     It was withdrawn through different times
 17      throughout the whole three-year ordeal of it as they needed
 18      money.    That's my statement to that.
 19      Q     Okay.   I got that part.      The part that I don't
 20      understand is whether or not you have a belief that those
 21      funds went anywhere else other than to the Church
 22      Development Fund and were withdrawn specifically from the
 23      Church Development Fund account?
 24      A     I don't recall.
 25      Q     Okay.   All right.   Once that investment paid off, Miss


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   1     Kuntz, I want to take you to a variety of other investments
   2     that were made as a result of being paid back on that loan.
   3                    And let's start with the property at 4th and
   4     Sullivan.     Do you have that property in mind?
   5     A      The vacant lot?   Yes, sir.
   6     Q      And when was that purchased?
   7     A      I don't recall the exact date.
   8     Q      Do you know if it was purchased before or after you got
   9     your money from Hayden TND?
 10      A     I don't recall the exact date.
 11      Q     Okay.   Who bought it?
 12      A     I don't recall.
 13      Q     It wouldn't matter to you anyway, though, would it?                  It
 14      would be community property because it was acquired during
 15      the marriage?
 16      A     Yeah.
 17      Q     Okay.   So it was acquired July 2nd, 2007, by James J.
 18      Kuntz, a married man dealing in his sole and separate
 19      property.     But, once again, that would be a community asset
 20      from your perspective because it was acquired during the
 21      marriage; is that right?
 22      A     In my layman's terms of knowing, yeah, what that means,
 23      yes.
 24      Q     Okay.   And why was that land purchased?
 25      A     Potentially talking about putting a building on there.


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   1     And I had a friend named Tricia, and he was talking with her
   2     about putting in a hair salon and that she would run the
   3     hair salon for -- to make money.             So an investment.
   4     Q     Okay.   And was that ever done?
   5     A     I haven't driven past it since we -- so at that point of
   6     when he filed divorce papers with me I -- it had not been
   7     done at that point.
   8     Q     Okay.   And did you do any work on this property?
   9     A     No, sir.
 10      Q     Let's go to 2606 North Monroe.            Do you have that
 11      property in mind?
 12      A     Hedge House Restaurant.
 13      Q     Okay.   And when was that property acquired?
 14      A     I don't recall, but it was some time right before August
 15      of 2007.
 16      Q     Okay.
 17      A     I believe.
 18      Q     You're right.    July 6th, 2007.          Who was the buyer of
 19      that property?
 20      A     I believe it was originally -- oh, I can't recall.                   It
 21      could have been an LLC, it could have been James Kuntz.                      I'm
 22      in the sure.
 23      Q     Okay.
 24      A     I know there was a -- I believe there was an agreement
 25      entered with them also, but I don't know the exact details


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   1     of it.
   2     Q     All right.   So if I refresh your recollection and tell
   3     you that was purchased by International Flair, LLC, does
   4     that sound correct?
   5     A     Yes, it does.
   6     Q     All right.   And are you a member of International Flair,
   7     LLC?
   8     A     At that -- International -- that's an LLC that he began
   9     to --
 10      Q     Here's my question ma'am:          Are you a member?
 11      A     Can I finish my answer?
 12      Q     If you can answer it.        You're not answering my question.
 13      Are you a member?      Yes or no?
 14      A     Not of -- I was not a member listed on there.                 This is
 15      when we started going through rocky situations in our
 16      marriage, and so this is about the time almost when that
 17      stuff was put together that I believe is kind of in the
 18      range of when we were about to be separated.                 I don't
 19      believe --
 20      Q     Is the answer "No, I'm not a member"?
 21      A     I already answered that.         No, I'm not.
 22      Q     All right.   Thank you.       And have you ever been a member?
 23      A     No.
 24      Q     What was paid for the real estate?
 25      A     To my best knowledge, my best guess would be 300,000.


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   1     Q     How much?
   2     A     My best guess would be 300,000.
   3     Q     Okay.   And why was this property purchased?
   4     A     We had multiple conversations that he and I talked about
   5     putting a restaurant in there and hiring some of -- like
   6     Nick Kessler and some people to run the restaurant for an
   7     investment.
   8     Q     Okay.   And was the restaurant ever put in there?
   9     A     There was a restaurant put in there.             I don't know how
 10      long that lasted.      You know, I think Jamie Breedlove, I
 11      believe is -- if I recall her name, they put a restaurant in
 12      there, and I don't know how long it lasted in there.
 13      Q     Did you do any work on this property?
 14      A     Maybe moved a couple of T.V.s there.             But nothing of --
 15      Q     Okay.   Let's move on to 2917 North Madelia, 2907 North
 16      Madelia, 2903 and 2983 North Madelia.              Do you have those
 17      properties in mind?
 18      A     Car lot.
 19      Q     Okay.   And when were those properties purchased?
 20      A     I don't recall.
 21      Q     So I'll refresh your recollection and tell you it was
 22      October of 2007.
 23      A     That would be when we were separated.
 24      Q     All right.    And who bought these properties?
 25      A     I don't know the details of that.


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   1     Q     Okay.   And do you know any of the details relative to
   2     this transaction?
   3     A     I know that we rented it to a guy by the name of Shane,
   4     and he ran a car lot off of it.            I believe that might have
   5     been put into Leighton's Lot, LLC.             But that's not a --
   6     Q     You can answer this one yes or no.               Are you a member of
   7     Leighton's Lot, LLC?
   8     A     No, sir.
   9     Q     Now, you say you were separated in October of '07?
 10      A     No, as I told you before when we first went through the
 11      history, we were separated from August 2007 to October 4 --
 12      November 4th of 2007.
 13      Q     Okay.   All right.    So you weren't living with Mr. Kuntz
 14      at the time that this property was acquired, and you're not
 15      familiar with the specifics relative to its acquisition?
 16      A     I believe we were in Harborview, actually.                 So I may
 17      have been living in the hospital with him, yes.
 18      Q     Okay.   Would this property in your view be a community
 19      asset, even though you were separated?
 20      A     Yeah, we were -- weren't legally separated.                 We were
 21      still married.
 22      Q     Okay.   Did you do any work on this property?
 23      A     No, sir.
 24      Q     All right.    With regards to the vacant land on Green
 25      Bluff, that was actually purchased after you and Mr. Kuntz


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   1     separated in February of '08, was it not?              Do you know?
   2     A     I don't recall.   I know about it, so I'm -- I --
   3     Q     What do you know about it?
   4     A     I know that the lot was purchased.
   5     Q     Okay.
   6     A     I know it's a vacant lot.
   7     Q     Do you know in whose name it's held?            Who purchased it?
   8     A     I don't recall.
   9     Q     Do you know what you paid for it?
 10      A     I don't recall those details.
 11      Q     Okay.   Do you have in mind the storage units?
 12      A     I'm sorry?
 13      Q     The storage units?
 14      A     Yes, sir.
 15      Q     Okay.   Do you know when those were purchased?
 16      A     I don't recall the exact dates.          Two separate
 17      transactions.
 18      Q     Do you know who bought them?
 19      A     I believe Jeff's name is on the documents that I've
 20      seen, but I can't tell you that for 100 percent sure.
 21      Q     Do you know what you paid for them?
 22      A     How much was paid for them?
 23      Q     Yes.
 24      A     In the nineties, I believe, of some sort.             But I don't
 25      know the exact amount, no.


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   1     Q      Did you do any work on those properties?
   2     A      Work to the structure?      That was our storage unit, so we
   3     did tons of moving in and out of thrift store stuff.                   He
   4     continued to collect thrift store stuff even after our
   5     thrift store was closed down, and that's what's in those two
   6     storage units.      So, yes, I unloaded and loaded many pallets
   7     of stuff.
   8     Q      I guess specifically what I'm asking you, maybe a little
   9     bit poorly, is did you do any work on those structures?
 10      A     No, sir.
 11      Q     We've only got about ten minutes here, Ms. Kuntz, so I'm
 12      going to just jump to a different line of questioning to get
 13      answers to this before we adjourn for the afternoon.
 14                    Do you have any specific real estate assets, Ms.
 15      Kuntz, that you intend to ask Judge Leveque be awarded to
 16      you?
 17      A     I believe that the report that Dan Harper provided, and
 18      I believe -- I don't want a nickel over what the law says is
 19      fair.
 20      Q     You don't want a nickel over what the law says is fair?
 21      A     Yeah, what the law says is fairly mine.
 22      Q     Here's what I'm asking for.
 23      A     Can I finish, please?
 24      Q     Well, I'd like you to tell me what property you --
 25                    MR. HALL:     Well, just a second.


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   1     A     I'm trying to finish my con -- my sentence.
   2     Q     (By Mr. Salina)   Is it in this report?
   3     A     I'm trying to finish my sentence.          You asked me a
   4     question prior, and I'm trying to finish the sentence.
   5     Q     You know, I don't --
   6                   MR. HALL:   She's answering the --
   7                   MR. SALINA:    Mr. Hall, let me finish.
   8     Q     (By Mr. Salina)   I don't want to interrupt you.              I
   9     really don't.    But I will just tell you that from my
 10      perspective the record, and many of the questions that I
 11      asked you very specifically and precisely, you're not
 12      responding to those questions.
 13                    I'll let you go ahead and finish your answer,
 14      but the record will speak for itself.            But I think this
 15      deposition has been longer than it needed to be because in
 16      my judgment your answers are not responsive to my questions.
 17      Go ahead and proceed.
 18      A     Thank you, sir.   I believe I don't -- like I said
 19      before, I don't want anything -- I don't want a nickel above
 20      what the law says is fairly mine.           I want attorney fees
 21      awarded to me, which I believe are fair.             And looking
 22      through the review of Dan Harper's situation, I believe what
 23      he's -- he's stated there is fair.
 24      Q     He doesn't state what should be awarded to you, Miss
 25      Kuntz.   Let me hand you a copy of his report.             Tell me -- or


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   1     I can give you a list if it would help you of the assets.
   2     But looking at that report, tell me specifically what you
   3     want awarded to you?
   4     A     I believe what should be awarded to me is what is fair
   5     as far as community property is regarded.
   6     Q     All right.    So whatever -- and he hasn't identified
   7     what's community property or separate property.                 He's
   8     identified what's held in your name, what's held in joint
   9     names, what's held in Jeff's names.             Are you asking for
 10      anything that's held in Jeff's name?
 11      A     Other than we may have a discussion on the Pinnacle
 12      Lane.    We may have just -- that one's in Jeff's category,
 13      but we may have a little bit of a difference of opinion on
 14      that.
 15      Q     So other than Pinnacle Lane which you feel you may have
 16      a claim against, are you asking for any real estate assets
 17      that are in Jeff's name?
 18      A     In Jeff's name solely?
 19      Q     Yeah.
 20                         (Pause to review document.)
 21      A     Besides the Pinnacle Lane, no, I don't.
 22      Q     Okay.
 23      A     I believe it's clear on here what, you know, --
 24      Q     Well, it's not clear on there what you want.                So, at any
 25      rate, the assets that are in Jeff's name solely, with the


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   1     exception of Pinnacle Lane, you're not asking for any of
   2     those assets to be awarded to you?
   3                    MR. HALL:   Well, that's not necessarily true.
   4     Q     (By Mr. Salina)   Go ahead.       Tell me what it is then,
   5     ma'am.
   6                    MR. HALL:   She's already told you that she
   7     believes all this is community property.
   8                    MR. SALINA:     I'm asking her specifically what
   9     she's asking the Court to award to her in this proceeding.
 10      A     Nothing -- I don't want the Court to award me anything
 11      that --
 12      Q     (By Mr. Salina)   I got that part.
 13      A     Okay.
 14      Q     Do you have specific assets you want awarded to you?
 15      And tell me what they are.
 16      A     Nothing -- nothing more than what's fair.             What the law
 17      says is fair.
 18      Q     All right.   So do you have a specific request for the
 19      Court to award to you specific assets?
 20      A     Attorneys fees.   Is that an asset?
 21      Q     All right.   So noted.
 22      A     Nothing over what the law says is fair for community
 23      property.
 24      Q     Okay.   So I gather from that, ma'am, you want a fair
 25      result?


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   1     A     Yes.
   2     Q     But in terms of any specific assets that be awarded to
   3     you, you're not requesting that specifically Walnut be
   4     awarded to you or specifically Pinnacle Lane be awarded to
   5     you, but, rather, that the Court simply give you a fair
   6     result?      Is that your testimony?
   7                     MR. HALL:    Her testimony --
   8     Q     (By Mr. Salina)    Let the record reflect that you're
   9     looking to Mr. Hall.        Mr. Hall's not here to testify.              He's
 10      here to represent you.        And I'm asking you, ma'am, if you
 11      know.    If you don't know, that's an answer.
 12      A     What I know up to this point is what I've told you.
 13      Q     But you haven't answered my question, which is, is there
 14      a request for a specific asset?
 15      A     I have answered the question the best way I know how to
 16      answer it.     I don't know how to answer it any differently.
 17      So what I've answered is that I want attorney fees.                   The
 18      only -- some of these in here we may have to go back and
 19      look at.     Pinnacle Lane being one.
 20      Q     I'll take back this report and just ask you
 21      specifically, ma'am.
 22                     The property that is held in God's Property &
 23      Development at this time -- now, let me hand you the report
 24      and ask you this question, because you seem to be relying on
 25      that report.     Are you asking for the property at 1504 West


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   1     Mansfield be awarded to you?
   2                        (Pause to review document.)
   3                   MR. SALINA:      Let the record reflect that Mrs.
   4     Kuntz is looking at Mr. Harper's Deposition Exhibit Number
   5     1.
   6                   MR. HALL:     She's already answered the question.
   7     Q     (By Mr. Salina)    I'm going to ask it again because I
   8     don't believe you have.
   9     A     My answer to the question is I don't want anything
 10      awarded to me that's not what the law says that is fair.
 11      Q     That's not my question.
 12      A     I want attorneys fees awarded to me.             And that's what I
 13      can say right now to answer the question.
 14      Q     All right.   Are you asking that 15218 East Pinnacle Lane
 15      be awarded to you?
 16      A     At this time I'm undecided.
 17      Q     Are you asking that 2907 East Everett be awarded to you?
 18      A     At this time I'm undecided.
 19      Q     With regards to any of the other real estate assets, are
 20      you asking that it be specifically awarded to you?
 21      A     At this time I'm undecided.          I just -- I feel like my
 22      stand on it is that I don't want a nickel over what it says
 23      is fair and what the judge determines is fair.                 I believe --
 24      Q     Okay.
 25      A     -- we'll present the issue, and the judge will determine


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   1     what's fair.
   2     Q     Do you have an opinion as to the value of 2209 North
   3     Walnut?
   4     A     To the value of -- I'm sorry.
   5     Q     Do you have an opinion as to the fair market value of
   6     2209 North Walnut?
   7     A     Do you mean 1504 West Mansfield?
   8     Q     Right?
   9     A     As to how much it would be right now?
 10      Q     Fair market value?
 11      A     I don't.    I haven't been in the property in --
 12      Q     Have you had it appraised?
 13      A     Have we had any of these appraised?
 14      Q     Right?
 15      A     No, sir.
 16      Q     Okay.    Do you have an opinion as to the fair market
 17      value of any of the real estate assets currently held by
 18      either you or Jeff, or both of you, or God's Property?                    All
 19      the various real estate assets, no matter how that you're
 20      titled, do you have an opinion as to the fair market value
 21      of any of them?
 22      A     I do not.
 23                      MR. SALINA:    So, for the record, it's four
 24      o'clock.      We've agreed to adjourn this afternoon and resume
 25      Ms. Kuntz' deposition some time next week.               Counsel and I


509-624-6255                  SPOKANE REPORTING SERVICE, INC.   421 W. Riverside Avenue, #1010
800-759-1564              www.spokanereportingservice.com Spokane, WA                 99201
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   1     haven't worked out exactly when that's going to take place
   2     or how that's going to take place because it hinges somewhat
   3     on the Court.
   4                 So what I would suggest, counsel, is -- I do
   5     want this on the record -- you and I will adjourn back to my
   6     office, make one more effort at trying to call the Court,
   7     and then we'll let you get out of town.
   8                                  (Deposition concluded at
   9                                   4:03 p.m.)
 10                                   (Signature is required.)
 11
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509-624-6255              SPOKANE REPORTING SERVICE, INC.   421 W. Riverside Avenue, #1010
800-759-1564         www.spokanereportingservice.com Spokane, WA                  99201
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   1                       C O R R E C T I O N S
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   3
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 19                 I have read the foregoing ______ pages of my
 20      testimony and believe the same to be true except for
 21      correction (s) noted above.
 22                                        __________________________
 23                                        LISA M. KUNTZ
 24
 25      SALINA-KUNTZ-1-29-10B/CW


509-624-6255              SPOKANE REPORTING SERVICE, INC.   421 W. Riverside Avenue, #1010
800-759-1564         www.spokanereportingservice.com Spokane, WA                  99201
                                                                               Page 169
   1     STATE OF WASHINGTON )
   2                            :     ss:     REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
   3     COUNTY OF SPOKANE      )
   4
   5                 I, Caryn E. Winters, a notary public in and for
   6     the State of Washington, do hereby certify:
   7                 That the foregoing deposition of LISA M. KUNTZ
   8     was taken on the date and at the time and place as shown on
   9     Page 1 hereto;
 10                  That the witness was sworn upon her oath to tell
 11      the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth and did
 12      thereafter make answers as appear herein;
 13                  That the foregoing is a true and correct
 14      transcription of my shorthand notes of the requested
 15      deposition transcribed by me or under my direction;
 16                  That the witness' signature was reserved.
 17                  WITNESS my hand and seal this 1st day of
 18      February 2010.
 19
 20                              ___________________________________
 21                              CARYN E. WINTERS, RPR
 22                              WA CCR No. 2496, ID CSR 237
 23                              Notary Public in and for the States of
 24                              Washington/Idaho, residing at Spokane.
 25


509-624-6255                 SPOKANE REPORTING SERVICE, INC.   421 W. Riverside Avenue, #1010
800-759-1564         www.spokanereportingservice.com Spokane, WA                     99201

				
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